TRIGGERnometry - "Modern Feminism Involves Casual Man-Hating" - Meghan Murphy

Episode Date: May 24, 2020

Meghan Murphy is a journalist, writer and founder of Feminist Current, a feminist website and podcast. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kitten. And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant and very fascinating guest today is Megan Murphy, who's an independent journalist and writer and YouTuber now as well. Megan, welcome to Trigonometry. Hey, thanks for having me on. It is a pleasure to have you on. And listen, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, just tell everybody a little bit about who. are you, how are you where you are and what is the journey that brings you here talking to us? I'm Megan Murphy, as we've established. I'm a writer and I've been running a website called Feminist Current, which is a feminist website since like 2012. So I've done like a lot of

writing around feminism. I've been podcasting for a long time and as you mentioned, I recently got some stuff going on my YouTube channel, mainly because I kind of wanted to explore issues outside of feminism and talk to people that maybe were a little less like me, talked to some people that I wasn't accustomed to speaking with in the past, which I've been really enjoying, trying to kind of branch out. I also do freelance work, so I, are freelance writing, I should say, for the spectator and unheard mostly these days.

It's good to have a fellow Nazi in the conversation. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. But one of the things that I think brought you to prominence in many people's eyes, and I imagine you'd be quite tired of talking about it, but just so that people are aware, you have been banned from Twitter permanently for misgendering someone. Is that right?

No, I didn't. I didn't mess gender anyone specifically. They started kind of locking down my account and combing through my tweets. And one of the tweets that they locked me down for was men are not women, which is, I believe, like a criminal statement. And for asking, what's the difference between, I think I asked, what was the difference between a trans woman and a man? And I actually really wasn't trying to be antagonistic, although, you know, I do like to, you know, joke and poke at people. But I'm also, you know, just being straightforward. And what I was trying to get at was like, what is it that happens between being a male and becoming a trans woman?

You know, what are we saying when we're saying someone is a trans woman? Because nobody seems to be able to answer these questions. Like, what is the difference between on Wednesday you're a male and on Thursday, you're a trans woman? happened there. Did you change your outfit? You just sort of feel like womanly on the inside. You're feeling a little emotional. I don't know. I was going to say, do you take a pay cut, but no. That's a good one too. And like, so, yeah, so they locked my account down for that one. And then what finally they permanently banned me for was a reference. to a man named Jonathan Yaniv, who had taken a number of female estheticians here in the

Vancouver area. I live in Vancouver. You filed human rights complaints against them because they wouldn't give him a Brazilian bikini wax. And he claimed that this was transphobic discrimination because he is in fact female and therefore his cock and balls are lady cock and balls. And I, he, his name was under a publication ban. So at the time, the media were not printing his name. They were referring to him as J.Y. And somebody discovered his real identity. I tweeted something saying, like, is it true that J.Y.

is in fact so-and-so linking to his Twitter account? And it was proved to be so. Somebody sent me a screenshot. And it was a public screenshot. You know, is his name, his face. He was leaving a review on Yelp or something like that saying, like, Brittany did a great job on my Brazilian bikini wax. And so I responded, I posted that screenshot and said, yeah, it's him. That's all I said, yeah, it's him.

And then I was permanently banned. So, I mean, I guess you could call it misgendering, except that he was still using his male pronouns in various places online, including on social media. So he was misgendering himself, which means that he should have been banned from social media. for transphobic hate crimes against insult, I think. And Megan, like this issue has now become very much into the mainstream. I've got, you know, you talk about it, normally in a hushed tones looking over your shoulder, as because that's the way it is. And a lot of men don't get it.

They don't see what the big deal is. They don't see what the fuss is. Could you just explain to people why this is such an important issue, not only for you, but also for women? Well, I mean, first of all, I think that it's important that we be allowed to discuss material reality and to tell the truth and also to engage in debate around contentious topics. So, you know, regardless of whether or not this, you know, I mean, I don't think that what I'm saying is particularly offensive.

I'm saying males cannot change sex. It's biologically impossible. I'm not saying that to be cruel or judgmental. It's just true. And I mean, I don't actually think that it's very helpful to go around telling people that it's possible to change their sex because I think that they'll be sorely disappointed

when they realize that's not the case. But, you know, in general, we should be able to have conversations. If you literally think that a man should be able to declare himself a woman, then explain to me why. Why is that important? Why would a man ever need to declare himself a woman? But moreover, of course, you know, if men can be women just by saying so, then that means that they have access to any and all female spaces. So that means, you know, women and girls change rooms, women's transition houses, they can be transferred to female

prisons, they can compete in sports against women, which are all really problematic areas. You know, we know that men are physically different than women. We know that men are in general stronger than women. And, you know, we're seeing now men competing against women in, like, track and field and winning and in, like, rugby and, like, weightlifting competitions. And, I mean, it's ridiculous, but it's also like, okay, then that's the end of female sports, I guess. I mean, women can't compete fairly if they have to compete against men. So if we're going to have, you know, like rights and spaces for women, we have to be able to define what a woman is. And if a man is a woman, then we can't.

There's no such thing as a woman if, like, literally anything and anyone is a woman just because they say so. And this is an interesting point you make. And we wanted to talk to you about feminism in detail and kind of towards the second half of the interview. But I think it's important to bring it up here because you talk about, you know, you want to be, able to discuss reality. You want to people to understand that men and women are different, that men tend to be

bigger, stronger, faster, and there's all kinds of other differences, right? But some people might say that feminists, some feminists, not all feminists, but some feminists have been eroding the concept of reality in over the last 20 or 30 years, pretending that these differences don't exist.

You know, Francis made a joke about the gender pay gap. lot of evidence now is it doesn't really exist in the way that people talk about it, right? So do you think that there's some responsibility that feminists need to take for introducing this erosion of reality into the into the into our public space? Sure. I mean, I do think that it's a mistake to pretend that men and women are equal and I don't think that it's necessary. And by equal, I mean literally equal. Like, of course, we should have the same access to human rights and the same access to we should be treated with respect

and dignity and be safe and protected from discrimination and violence. But men and women aren't the same. And pretending that they are and pushing for that is, you know, unnecessary, in my opinion. And, yeah, I think I'm sure there's lots of places along the way that feminists have made a mistake. And in many ways, those who probably would describe themselves as feminists in gender studies departments in academia are responsible for this new. gender identity ideology that we're dealing with now where you know how you feel on the inside

defines your body and defines material reality i mean that's all kind of as far as i can tell most of that came out of gender studies queer studies this idea that you can kind of subvert reality through language or imagination and isn't it just a one-stop way to actually make yourself feel incredibly miserable as well is if you deny that there's no difference between the genders and in a sense denying you know some aspects of being male which are important you know which are important for men and by going oh that's unimportant all of a sudden you take away something inherent in us i mean at the end of the day i really just want everyone to be able to be themselves um and so you know like i differentiate between sex and gender so when i talk

about sex, I'm talking about the body, whether or not you're born male or female. And when I talk about gender, I'm talking about femininity and masculinity. So that's more attached to the stereotypes around behaviors and likes and dislikes, maybe things like clothing. Megan, sorry to interrupt, but just for anyone who's listening, just an ordinary person who's not engaged in any of these conversations, just explain that to people a little bit more. So you make a distinction between sex, which you talk about biology, i.e. do you have a penis or a vagina, breast or flat chest, whatever. Can you produce sperm or over? And then there's the other side, which, as you say, is more behavior, you know, clothing, whatever. So I use then saying that

people's gender and sex can be misaligned. In other words, someone can have a penis but be a man or male or what's the right term? Not really because I don't think those stereotypes are so fixed. Like I think what we're really just talking about is personality. So, you know, no, I don't actually think that people are all one thing, you know, every single feminine stereotype doesn't apply to me. In some ways they do. And in some ways, I will be feminine, but in other ways not, you know, maybe like girls can be interested in boys toys and want to play football and be you know more interested in trucks than dolls and so on and so forth um so I think that your personality doesn't change your body I mean a person can feel feminine all they want and that just means sorry I should

say a male can feel feel feminine all they want but that doesn't make him not male it's just like a man who's interested in so-called feminine things and stereotypically feminine things. Like you put on a dress that doesn't actually change your body. Right. So this is what I'm trying to get at is what is the purpose then of separating sex from gender? Well. Could we not just say it's a feminine man or a tomboy woman or like why do we have to separate these two?

Because I just, I see that as a kind of slope towards. the trans ideology that you're critical of. You know, this idea that your biology isn't necessarily what determines how you are in the world when, in fact, to a large extent it does. Sure. I mean, you could say that's a feminine man or you could just say that's just a man and this is just his personality. I mean, I don't even know if we really need to talk about femininity and masculinity

all that much. We could just be like people are different people. I just don't. I don't know that it's all that helpful to, you know, discuss these stereotypes as if they're inherent, although I think, you know, like I do want to clarify that. It's like, I do think that there are differences between men and women that are connected to evolution for sure. I mean, men and women have different roles in society and have long had different roles in society. And it sort of makes sense that they would be engaged in different activities based on those

biological differences, right? So, but in general, I mean, I would just say, like, like, if this guy likes, you know, pink and sparkly dresses, then, okay, like, if that makes him happy, then, like, knock yourself out. Go ahead, Francis, knock yourself out, man. There's nothing wrong with it, mate. I look great and sparkly dressing. My legs look divine. Anyway, I didn't think I'd ever say those words, especially going out onto the internet. Anyway, moving on. I know, Megan, I've watched some of your lectures. They've all been very, very interesting.

You have a particular problem and issue with the word cis being used, especially to describe women. Why do you dislike the word cis? Because I know a lot of women do. Yeah, I mean, again, like I really just, it's totally unnecessary because supposedly what cis means is that you're like assigned gender matches your sex. But A, I mean, again, I don't think that's applicable to me because I wasn't, I didn't like come out of the womb being interested in like stilettos and eyeliner. That's sort of part of cultural learning and socialization and other factors. You know, I know women who hate eyeliner. Does that mean that they're not

cis women, like even if they don't identify as transgender. It's sort of like this, this prefix that we're attaching to women just to say, you're a woman who's a female, and that's what a woman is. She is female. Like, we're over-complicating this. Like, there's no fancy definition here. Like, a woman is an adult human female. It doesn't matter how she feels about her gender. It doesn't matter what her personality is. It doesn't matter what clothes she likes to wear. We don't need to have that conversation necessarily. It's sort of like, it sort of positions women, women who are female, i.e. all women as not the norm. Like now it's sort of like a trans woman is an actual woman and women who don't identify

as trans have to add this extra word, cis. It's a different kind of women. Like it's just, it's all imaginary and it's all kind of like gobbledy goop like you know you you you aren't a woman like we keep insisting and by we i mean not we at all because i've never insisted this the progressives the laugh the trans activist the liberals like whatever you want to call them some trans-identified people and i mean i should also add that like not all trans-identified people agree with this crap, right? Like, I know people who call themselves transsexual who know full well that they're male, but for whatever reason, they feel more comfortable trying to present as women. Right. Well, we've had Rose of Dawn on the show, precisely talking. And there's a whole spectrum within

that as well. Like, we've had India Willoughby, who is a trans woman, and on many things, I think she'd disagree with you. But on the sports issue, for example, agrees with you completely, right? So there's a range of opinion, and this is one of the problems with the progressive left's ideology, is it assumes that people of a certain identity group all think the same, which of course is an incredibly racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic concept in and of itself, right? Totally. But so the cis thing annoys you for that reason. And what about, this is another thing that I've actually made the mistake of.

I heard the word turf being used, right? And I looked up the definition, which is trans-exclusionary radical feminist, and I assumed that that's what it meant. So I used it to describe a woman who was a trans-exclusionary radical feminist, and a bunch of our viewers and subscribers freaked out and said that it's a massive insult. So why is that such a painful word? word to use about gender-critical feminists? Well, I don't think it really makes any sense

because it's applied to all sorts of people, regardless of whether or not they identify as radical feminists in the first place. I don't identify as radical feminist. I'm not really super interested in identifying as anything these days. I don't think of that labels are all that helpful. I'd prefer to just have conversations about what I think. But, I mean, I am, of course, a feminist.

But it's also like it's not about excluding trans-identified people. It's about definitions and it's about keeping men specifically out of women's faces. So I think what they actually mean, they're just not being honest when they use these terms, right? What they actually mean is that feminists, certain feminists are wanting to keep women-only spaces women only. And so if you're male, you can't access, again, like a woman's transition house. They're saying you shouldn't be transferred to a female prison because that's dangerous, that you shouldn't just be allowed to, like, walk into a woman's change room and start getting undressed. And it's, you know, it's not about keeping, for example, females who identify as trans out of women's faces.

And it sort of isn't it though? I mean, what if you have a trans man, so that's someone who used to, identify or who's biologically female but has transitioned to male look at you Tom surround those little laser beams there it's a difficult one but someone who was born a woman born female right and now dresses and appears to be male for all intents and purposes they may have facial hair right

would would would you not want them excluded from a female only space no I mean if they're female I don't really care. I, you know, women's spaces are for women, and as far as I'm concerned, women who identify as trans men are still female. And, you know, like, the honest truth is that, like, most trans-identified people don't pass. Most people in the world can discern sex pretty easily. That's, again, part of our, like, part of evolutionary biology. Like, we do need to discern sex. So I think there's like a few people who can pass. So that is to say like a man who transitioned to be a woman and people when they see him on the street actually just assume he's a woman and

vice versa. But most people don't. And no, I have no interest in excluding, you know, women or girls who identify as boys or women from female in these spaces. And, you know, turf really is only used in the pejorative. Like it's only it's it's it's used as an insult and an attack and the shutdown conversation. It's been used against me and lots of other women that I know attached to you know misogynist terms and like attached to violent threats like die turf. At one of the events that we held in here in Vancouver in the winter you know there were these activists outside who had put together this like cardboard guillotine and it was like turf step right up people have vandalized a

Vancouver rape relief in women's shelters storefront which is like a local transition house here in Vancouver that's women only so they're kind of constantly under attack because they're insistent on not letting men in to this space where like women are escaping horrific violence and abuse and trying to heal from like sexual assault and things like that So, you know, they, they graffeed, like, dye turfs on their storefront, you know, like, it can be used in, like, really scary ways, not always, but, but it's certainly not uncommon. And it's just, it's used as a way to attack anyone who ask questions about or challenges

gender identity ideology, legislation, policies. Again, whether or not they identify as radical feminist, whether or not they're interested in excluding trans-identified people from anything. Like if you just say, you know, men are male or you can't change sex, then you're a turf, supposedly. And how have we got to this point? Because it just seems to me

that we've just descended into lunacy and into chaos, where you've said yourself, like people are graffiti on a rape crisis center. How has it come to this point? That's a really good question. And I've thought about this a lot and I'm not entirely sure because it does seem totally insane and so many people are on board with it.

Like regular intelligent people or people who I thought were regular intelligent people until they started repeating this nonsense have gone along with this and act like I'm some kind of like horrible villain because I say things like men aren't women. and I'm just like I've had a lot of trouble figuring out if they're actually being sincere in their belief when they say things like trans women or women or if they're just saying it so they don't get in trouble or if they've just been told you know this is the progressive thing to say and think so unless you're a terrible bigot and a Nazi then you have to go along with this and nobody wants to be a Nazi very few people want to Nazis in any case. Um, so like I, again, like I, I sort of think a lot of it came out of academia. Like, you know, a lot of it is just this weird theory that got translated somehow into real

life and completely confused. And even the people who support this ideology. So I refer to those people as trans activists, not necessarily because they're actually trans, but because they push this, these ideas. You know, even these people, you know, when you, when you ask them questions and you try to talk to them about this ideology, what they say doesn't make any sense. And they can't answer basic questions. Like, again, you know, I would always ask, like, what is a woman? Like, if you're going to announce trans women are women, what does that mean?

What does the word women mean? And they're like, whatever, you know, they can't answer. So they'll say something like, it's just anyone who identifies as a woman. and I'll say, okay, so what is it that you're identifying as? And they can't answer that and then they just get mad and block you or they call you a turf. But, you know, you would think that if it was really, really important to them that you identify a so-called trans woman as a woman, that that would be because that word actually means something. So it's odd that they keep insisting that you say that trans women are women, like repeat after me,

trans women are women, if they're not even going to define the term. term woman and they won't even explain what it means to say that a man is a woman. What is that process? And again, like this is what I said before. Like, why is it even important? Like, I just feel like surely we can treat people with respect and dignity without lying. Like, can't we just say you should treat this guy with respect and dignity even though he isn't masculine or something like that? Why do we have to say that he's a literal female? Like, who does that help? It's not going to help his doctor, you I mean. Like, there's very good reasons to understand the differences between men and women and to understand when somebody is like a male and somebody is a female, like, namely like health reasons,

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That's www.giorgemarios.com and it will tell you all about his touring, his merch and his music. Check him out to Bloody Belter. Tell me this, because it seems to me like the thing you're talking about, which is the erosion of reality, the erosion of the concept of truth, the indoctrination. and the demand that we all subscribe to things that we know are not true, right? That is something that applies in all sorts of areas, whether it's race, whether it's gender and sex, men and women, whether it's the trans issue. But the trans issue, for some reason, is particularly vitriolic. So we just had Graham Linehan on the show a week ago, and we talk to controversial people

all the time, but I don't think we've ever had the level of nastiness towards history. and towards us that we had after having him on the show. Why is this issue so, so, so difficult and the people involved in it? Why are they so, so angry? That is a very good question. I don't understand why people get so angry about this issue. I think part of it is that if you are a person who is trans-identified and you've been told over and over and over again by these activists,

that you, so say you're a man, you identify as a trans woman. You've been told over and over and over again by these trans activists. You're a woman, you're a literal woman, and if somebody misgenders you, that's violence and it's traumatic. And, you know, the only way that you can accept yourself and to live a happy life is if others validate your identity. So it's such a strange and unhelpful ideology to me because it's not about, you know, you feeling comfortable with yourself, actually, that is rests wholly on external validation, which is very, you know, unstable. Like, you can't control what other people think and say about you. You can't control. If you walk down the street and somebody reads you as a man because you look male, there's not really anything you can do about that.

But you've been told that you can, that you can control that. So I think people sort of become enraged because, I mean, A, they've been sort of, they've been told that they're a very vulnerable and marginalized population and that this misgendering thing is like traumatic and triggering and will actually like destroy your sense of self. But I guess, I mean, I just, I think all this lying to people has been really unhelpful to them, right? because now they have this expectation that everyone else should participate in the lie. So I guess, and I mean I also think a lot of people have just invested so much into these politics. So they've spent so much time, you know, changing their policies in their organizations and going around the internet, yelling at everybody about trans women or women and insisting that we don't misgender them, you know, journalistic policies.

have been changed. And so I think it would be kind of embarrassing at this point to backtrack. You know, they made such a big scene about the whole thing and tried to vilify all of us who challenge it practically as criminals. You know, like I've seen people say things like, you know, it's illegal to misgender. It's like hate speech to say, to call a trans woman male. And, you know, we've seen women in the UK actually be, you know, actually I, I know, I know. women in Vancouver who've been fired from their jobs over this. We've seen people be taken to court over this now. So I don't know.

I mean, I guess, I don't know. I think it's sort of hard for a lot of people to admit that maybe they were wrong, especially when they've spent so much time sort of banging the drama on this issue. And Megan, do you see this as a freedom of speech issue? Like, somebody can identify as a gender, but it's up to you where the, if you choose to follow that, you know, would you go along with that or do you think that actually, you know, it's a correct thing to do? I do see it as a freedom of speech issue.

I think that, you know, if you want to call a trans woman she or her, then you can do that, but you don't get to insist that somebody else do that. Well, Megan, let's, we wanted to talk to you about family. feminism as well because I think, you know, while obviously the trans issue has become a big one, I just feel like we've got bigger things to discuss more generally anyway as a society and there's bigger things to talk about. But first of all, can you just explain to us what feminism is? Because a lot of people who don't know the details of it will, again, look at the official definition and it's the belief that men and women are and should be treated equally, right?

are equal should be treated equally. But a lot of the people who observe, just like with the turf thing, there's the way that it's defined, and then there's the way that you perceive it based on observation. And you see all this stuff like men are trash and all this other stuff,

all men are potential rapists? Like, are those feminists too? Like, what is the feminist movement and why are the, like, these different readings of it? I mean, it's, yeah, like, it's so tough today because I think so. many people have like wildly different understandings of what feminism is and people who identify as as feminists will see things very differently than other people who also identify as feminist.

So it's sort of like I almost like I'm almost inclined to kind of like stop talking about feminism and again start talking about like ideas and issues because I just feel like that's more productive and it's easier for us to understand one another if we're just talking about specific issues. So talk to us about the specific issues. You as a kind of what I would say is a sane feminist, you're not running around saying all men are rapists, et cetera. What are the issues that in your opinion women who want to protect and advance women's rights should be focusing on in the moment? So I think a key issue is violence against women. And I think it's interesting because I think third wave feminists, so kind of like modern, mainstream feminists, like whatever you want to call them.

Some people call them liberal feminists. I usually refer to them as third wave feminists. They seem to have really not focused on violence against women. And to me, that's one of the biggest, most serious issues facing women around the world, you know, things like rape and domestic abuse and FGM. What happens to women in prostitution, for example, is really horrific. sex trafficking. These are major issues, you know, things like, you know, the violence and misogyny that happens in the porn industry and the exploitation that happens in the porn industry. These are like multi-billion dollar industries and thousands and thousands of women are impacted by these things. And yet we don't see a lot of mainstream, you know, third-wave feminists,

these like young, cool girl feminists who are invested in like, I don't know, like the fat positivity. movement or like posing in their outfits on Instagram and like trying to argue about their fucking pronouns. It's like these things aren't important. Like there are a lot of really important issues going on in the world. A lot of really horrible things are happening to women and girls every day all around the world. And you're obsessing over your pronouns and whether or not you're non-binary and trying to like

look sexy on the internet. So, I mean, sorry, France, I just want to finish that issue. So, you see, I think if the public perception was that that is what feminism is, you know, the advocacy against

violence against women, I think you would have a society where almost everybody thought they were a feminist on that definition, right? But the polling shows that I think in this country is like 7% of women identify as feminist, At the last poll, nearly, I think it's over half of men said that they thought that feminism was about, not about hating men, but it was like almost like a female supremacy movement as opposed to a movement for the protection of women from discrimination.

So why is there this massive gap in perception versus the kind of stuff that you're talking about? Is it that these woke feminists are kind of ruining feminism? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that the kind of, the kind of, of feminism that gets mainstream coverage in the U.S., for example, is, again, not really centered around

these issues that I believe to be really important and that it should be centered around. I do think that there has been kind of like a lot of casual, like, man hating in feminism that I guess these women think is, like, funny or cool.

And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't necessarily offend me, unless it actually is offensive, but for the most part, it's sort of jockey. I just find it kind of like stupid and childish and boring, like all this like male tears things thing. Like, it's like I don't like, I also like I don't like this idea where we go around telling other people to shut up. Like I don't like seeing other feminists being like, you're a man, sit down.

You have no say in this because I just don't, I don't agree with that. Like I kind of think everybody has a say. I think everybody should participate in the cross. conversation. And that doesn't mean that I think, you know, there aren't some spaces that could or should just be for women to talk about issues particularly impacting women. But, I mean, you see on Twitter and on Facebook, like social media all the time, it's like, oh, you're a man. So, like, you have privilege and you don't get to speak. And I mean, people do the same things in different ways depending on your

your so-called identity. So it's like, oh, well, you're a cis woman, so you need to sit down and shut up. Like, you're white, so you need to sit down and shut up. And that's just like a really unproductive, obviously, way to engage in discussion, and it prevents us from learning

and from understanding each other, which, I mean, this plays into all sorts of other issues that we could get into, which is that I don't think that a lot of people want to understand each other anymore. I think they just want to create divisions and then talk within their own little bubbles. But yeah, I guess I sort of lost track of your original question.

But actually, you've veered into a very interesting subject, which is you think that people don't want to understand each other. No, it doesn't seem like they do. Like it seems like people want their tribes. You know, people want to only talk within their ideological and political bubbles and they get really upset and triggered and offended even to be exposed to other ideas. And I find it really troubling, but I also don't relate to that at all because I really enjoy talking to people who aren't like me. I enjoy talking to all sorts of

people and I find it really boring to sort of either just for me to be just kind of preaching to the choir or for me to be just reading the same takes over. over and over and over again. It's like, okay, got it. Like, I know that you think this. I want something new. I want to, you know, learn something. I want to be challenged in my thinking.

And, yeah, I mean, people on the left, I talk a lot about people on the left because that's sort of where I've been engaged for years and years and years. You know, I haven't been involved in right-wing circles. life so I can't necessarily speak to that so maybe they do this too but it seems to me that it's it's particular to progressives and the left and liberals um that i think the right do it too as well me i'm sorry to interrupt like whenever we put out a video that is with like a left wing person

the right wing get triggered and like downvoted before they've watched it and like put loads of comments before they've watched it and then whenever we put a video by a right wing person that the left don't like, then the left come and do the same thing. So I think everybody's prone to it, but I would say the left pioneered it. Yeah, I mean, it just seems like people sort of want comfort over challenges and they don't want to develop an understanding of people who are different than them, which I think is troubling in a lot of ways because supposedly, like we as a society want to be reaching towards like tolerance, diversity, inclusion, these kinds of concepts that we hear about all the time, but don't actively actually promote. You know, nobody wants diversity

of thought. People want the kind of diversity that fits a particular mold. You know, I feel like that happens to me a lot where people have sort of put me in this box and they want me to stay in this box. And if I step outside of the box, so like if I talk to people that they don't like or you know, people that aren't feminist or people that aren't left wing, then they kind of freak out. Like, people seem really triggered by that. And they, you know, get angry at me and are like, oh, well, I guess you're not a feminist anymore. I guess you're a right winger now because you had a conversation with this like right wing guy and you seem to get along with him. And I'm like, well, yeah, like, he seemed nice. Like, why do I have to be mean to somebody just because I don't

agree with them? Like, it's so odd to me. It's because they're evil, Megan. Now, just I want to ask, what do you think? Now, what you taught something like, as Constance said, it's very interesting, but what do you think is going to be the end game? If we keep in our own little bubbles and don't discuss and don't share ideas, what do you think is going to happen to society as a result of that? I think things will just get worse. I mean, I, we, empathy is an incredibly important thing.

We, I think that what we're doing in terms of staying in our, our little bubbles, creating these divisions in terms of this kind of tribalism, in terms of, you know, vilifying people who are different than us, vilifying people who simply don't agree with all of our political opinions. What we're doing actually is we're dehumanizing people. So we're not treating and approaching and engaging with people as though they're full complex human beings. And most people are full complex human beings. Most people are in fact not left or right. Most people are kind of like apolitical or somewhere in between or maybe they'll hold some views that might fit with the left wing view and some other views that might fit with the right wing view.

I mean, people are just way more complicated than this. And if we turn everybody who isn't just like us into our enemy and dehumanize them, I think it's really dangerous. I think that that's where we get into justifying violence and things like that. And we'll see this on the far, you know, kind of. of extreme left with like groups like Antifa and things like that. And I've seen that in terms of behavior towards me where people threaten me with violence and death because they've decided that I'm this horrible person because I say that trans women are male or because I say you can't

change sex or because I'm trying to protect women's sex-based rights. But in order to avoid engaging with me or in order to avoid humanizing me, they turn, yeah, they turn, yeah, they turn me into this bad inhuman person and then it makes it okay for them to threaten me with violence and that's really scary you know it's not okay to threaten anybody with violence i don't care how much you disagree with them i don't care how bad you've decided they are that person's a human being you don't get to go around killing people because you disagree with them and that's you know i see those justifications from people nowadays i mean it's not it's not necessarily new but it's sort of like newly shocking to me that people who claim to be open-minded people who are pushing for

inclusivity and diversity are also justifying or at very least not speaking out against these violent threats or in fact actual real violence against you know political enemies people that they've decided are enemies in any cases like you've never even had a conversation with this person anyway you've probably even never read the article that you're pissed about you've probably you never even listen to a word that they've said and you've just decided because your your your group, your social circle, your political circle or whatever has informed you that this person is like a fascist or whatever word you like are using even though it has no real meaning anymore. Like that this person, you know, deserves to be jailed or or punched or whatever.

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Basically, you're going to look like me. And isn't that what everyone wants? One of the topics that I was really interested in when I saw some of your lectures and your work is a topic of pornography because... I bet you were, mate. Because, but, you know, we joke about pornography. It's ubiquitous. You know, if you look at a website like Pornhub, it's got, you know, billions of hits every year.

but why do you think it's so dangerous, in particular for women, and also its effect on young men as well? I mean, I think, as you say, like, I think that it is really bad for women, not just for the women who are in the porn films, but for, you know, women who are, you know, having sex with men who've been raised on porn. And I think it's really bad for men. I think it sort of gives, it teaches men untrue things. about sex and women and about men also. The reality of porn and anybody who's seen porn knows that it's degrading to women. You know, maybe there's some porn here and there that isn't degrading to women,

but I think that the vast majority is degrading to women. A lot of it is violent. A lot of it is using misogynist and really racist language. I mean, pornography is overtly racist in the way that it's categorized even, But there's also a lot of racist slurs that we hear in pornography. And so I really, I think that it sort of normalizes the idea that violence is sexy and that women want to be degraded, that women want to be choked, that women want, you know, five guys to come in her face.

Like, most women don't enjoy that. Well, I'm learning something. And, like, it's just, this is. is this is what i you know and i also sort of think i think it gives men who watch porn a uh sort of i'm trying to think of how to explain this you know i know of men or i know of women who've had boyfriends or partners who like can no longer get it up without pornography who can't like come from regular sex with regular women because they've been watching

kind of more and more extreme pornography and so they've acclimatized themselves to this new thing. So I think, you know, like I sort of wonder why men don't worry about that themselves. And, you know, I think it trains men, honestly, to be bad in bed. Like, if you're learning about sex

and what women enjoy from pornography, you're really not at all learning about sex. You're absolutely quiet. The voice of experience, Constantine. Absolutely, mate. No, genuinely, it is very misleading. We joke about it, but that is just, you're not wrong there for sure. But I guess I suppose the counter argument might be, well,

these are consenting adults engaging in, you know, legal activity. What's, you know, who are we to interfere? Kind of the libertarian argument, I suppose. What do you make of that? Well, I think that that conversation is more complicated than just consent versus non-consent because I think that obviously like a lot of women and girls who do pornography are doing it because they feel they have no other choice. There's also like a lot of drug addiction and mental health issues and abuse that's going on in pornography. There's, you know, there's information

that shows that a lot of the girls in pornography have. abusive pasts, I think that it's possible to be kind of groomed into these industries if you have like a history of sexual abuse and you sort of normalize that. Obviously if you're, you know, addicted and struggling with other mental health issues, I'm not sure that the consent conversation should just be limited to whether or not you said yes or no. You know, if you're vulnerable, then there's all sorts of reasons that you might agree to do something that is exploitative. But I also think... Right, but couldn't that argument, Megan, sorry to interrupt,

just I'll give you plenty of time to finish. I just want to interject this here. The argument that, well, these people feel like they have no other choice. I mean, that argument could be made about any job. You know, people hate working in a call center, and you could say working for a very low-paid, very unpleasant job is something that, you know, you don't have a choice because, again, you could have had an abusive past

and therefore you're not able to get a better job. Like all of this stuff is still, you know, human beings aren't perfect. None of us are. None of us have a perfect history. A lot of the decisions that we make are based on trauma, you know, whatever experiences we might have had. So I suppose what I'm saying, all I'm saying is that argument can be made about lots of jobs, not just pornography, right? Sure. I mean, I think that we can or should be able to agree that sex is particularly intimate.

So having sex with somebody is not. not the same as, for example, serving them a cup of coffee or selling them a pair of running shoes. And I think that, like, this is something else that I'm actually pretty troubled about in terms of our society. And I think that liberals have sort of played a large part in pushing this thing that pretends like sex isn't intimate and that sex isn't kind of like a special thing. And I'm not, like, I feel like I have to be defensive when I say that and be like, I'm not religious, you know, like I came, I was raised in like a very anti-religion household, you know, like I'm, you know, I don't, I don't think I even knew anybody who was religious until I was an adult. Like I just wasn't exposed to Christianity or any kind of organized religion at all. But like I sort of feel resentful because I feel like third way feminism taught me that I should be having, sex like men. So that it should be, that sex should mean nothing and that you shouldn't, you know, like have a relationship with somebody who you have sex with. And I'm not saying that

in order to have sex, you should be in a relationship with them. Like, that's not being my history at all. And I think it's perfectly fine to have sex with people that you're not in a relationship with. But I think that it's weird to try to force yourself to pretend that it doesn't matter, like that that other human that you're having sex with doesn't matter, that their feelings don't matter, that your feelings don't matter, and that there's not something kind of like deeper and more intimate going on. And I think that things like pornography and prostitution teach us that this other person isn't a full human being, that it's just a body that you're using for your own pleasure. I don't think that's healthy for any party involved. Again, I just think it's kind of

dehumanizing and you know we know that you know having sex with somebody like if somebody's like penetrating your body that's that's different that's different that's going to have a bigger impact on you than you know like going to the office even though going to the office can sometimes be a degrading or demoralizing experience it can certainly make you miserable it certainly made me miserable when I had to go to work in an office but it's not the same as you know right being gang raped or something like that right like or having gang sex consensually yeah yeah no i think you're right and the the point that you make about separating sex from emotion and and to some extent from relationship i do think that's part of it as well because

you know if you if you understand basic evolutionary psychology sex is a way particularly for women to to to bond with the man and to get him to stick around and bring up the children that would normally have resulted from the sex. So I think you're right that that kind of attempt to just pretend that everything is transactional in this kind of and free from anything like that. Yeah, it's not working. Yeah. And I mean, I just, I feel like I spent a lot of time when I was younger, you know, like when I was like 19, 20 or whatever, trying to shut down those emotions because I thought that's what it meant to be like an empowered, liberated woman is to be able to have sex without feelings and without getting attached. And, you know, it took me years to be like, oh, no, that wasn't a good

message. Why, why am I trying to force myself? Like, I do have feelings about this. Like, I am attached to this person and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, that doesn't make me weak or not sexually liberated or not feminist. Like, it's just such a really inhumane backwards message. And do you think it goes back to the idea that we were talking about before, that there's no, that the liberals would say, well, there's no difference between the genders? A woman could go out and just have sex with a man

and feel absolutely nothing just like an inverted commas a man would do? Totally. Like, it's like this idea that for a woman to be really liberated, that she has to behave like men. And I'm saying like men in quotations because I don't think that's how all men behave. But, you know, that's sort of a stereotype. That may be true for some men,

but it's a stereotype nonetheless, that like all men just have sex without feeling and without getting attached and, you know, want to go, like, have sex with a bunch of women, random women all the time, like a new woman every night or whatever. but it's yeah I think that it really it was pushed on me and I and I tried to do this again when I was younger that it's like I should I should act like a man and I should be able to do everything that a man

can do and that's what's going to make me feel free and and empowered and and it's not true and I mean yeah I do think that that message was pushed by kind of modern feminists and modern feminism, you could say. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly

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And what do you think of this argument that pornography, it has changed what we expect from women's bodies, the pornification of women's bodies, that we expect them now to have a certain type of, you know, leg, breast, buttock, whatever. Do you think that that has impacted on society as a whole? Yeah, I mean, I think that young women have normalized objectification in a massive way. And we'll see that in the way that they present themselves online on Instagram, for example. you know like and we see that and that it's become really norm the norm for young women you know teenage girls to send nude pornified photos to these idiot boys who don't deserve these photos at all and you know and that's i mean that's dangerous to these girls in a lot of ways not least of which being that these photos are so often leaked and then there's nude photos of them all over the internet and they can't get rid of them um but it's also like you know you don't have to do that to get a boy to like you.

That's what girls think that they have to do to get someone interested in them. And what these girls want is a relationship. Like they, I'm going to sound like a sexist now, but oh well, I think it's like what these girls want is for that boy to be her boyfriend and to treat her with respect and to love her. And I don't think that sending a guy like a porny photo of yourself is. is going to achieve that. Like, I think that you should be trying to, like, get to know people. Obviously, there's attraction, too. Like, I am not so wholesome.

But, like, you know, obviously you're, like, attracted to people and you want to have sex with them. And sometimes those are people who, like, maybe you don't like their personalities that much. And, like, that's fine, too. But, like, we're not really... Girls aren't being honest about what they want, and they're doing the thing that the boy wants them to do.

And that's an exploitative thing. Like, I don't... I think that... there's a problem with like boys and men pushing for nudes, of course, also. But the fact that women are just like volunteering this stuff, like it's a normal thing. And sort of that they feel like they have to like sex up the photos that they're putting on, on Instagram so that, you know, they'll feel validated and liked and loved. I mean, that's not a good way to build confidence or to feel validated.

I mean, so like so a bunch of like random dudes who know, nothing about you, who don't care about you, who don't know anything about your personality, who don't like you for who you are, so on and so forth, are, like, clicking like on your photo and, like, wanting to fuck you. I mean, is that, I don't think that's a way to build confidence in the long term. Building confidence is about, like, achievement and skills and getting to know yourself and, like, feeling good about your abilities and liking yourself. And, you know, I just don't think it's I certainly don't think that it's helpful for for girls and women, but I mean, I don't know that it's helpful. It sounds to me almost like the modern feminism that you're talking about has actually undermined the achievements of previous waves of feminism and we're now going to end up circling back to kind of traditional gender roles eventually when we've realized we've gone too far in other direction.

Do you see that happening? People kind of almost a clamor to, for women to be women and for men to be men. Is that, do you see that happening? Not necessarily with people that I know. I mean, that may be happening in other circles. I mean, it's not, I'm not necessarily calling for a return to traditional gender roles. I just, but I do think that modern feminism, Took things too far, you could say, to the point where I see it as a backlash. I see it as a backlash

against second wave feminism, you know, to what like the suffragettes fought for, what the women in the 60s and 70s fought for. And it's a real, I mean, I see it as sort of more male-centered than anything else, to be honest. Like, I don't see this modern version of feminism as really being very helpful to women. And, you know, we can see this in all sorts of ways, but particularly through this idea that, you know, pornography and prostitution can be empowering for women, that objectification is empowering for women. Again, that women should be able to, like, have sex like men, but, and then also through this, like, trans ideology, which, which also came from third-way feminism or has been pushed by third-way feminism in any case that a man

a man can be a woman and there's no such thing as a woman and it's offensive to say that a woman is female and so on and so forth. So I don't know if, yeah, I think that there's a lot of lying to one another that's based on ideological preferences over the truth. And we've sort of been prevented from having truthful honest conversations because actually sometimes the truth, you know, the truth has been defined as offensive in so many. ways. And so, you know, when I try to have these conversations sometimes with other feminists, you know, I think I'm positioned as being kind of sexist or regressive. And it's like, I'm just trying to be real and get to the truth here and have honest conversations. And, you know, I'm not, I,

I don't know why we can't just talk about this stuff. I mean, it doesn't even mean that one of us is right or wrong necessarily, but I would like to have a conversation. And I, to me, it's just really important to be authentic and to be myself. And if that means that like I'm a bad feminist, then I guess so be it because I don't, I don't want to lie. I don't want to be somebody that I'm not. No, absolutely. It just seems to me like looking at this sort of third and fourth way of feminism, the mental gymnastics sometimes that they perform in order to justify their arguments. You know, like, you know, like saying things like, you know, if you're a sex worker, it's somehow empowering. when the reality is if any of us are daughters, male or female, and you ask them, would you like them to be a sex worker, invariably they would go, hell no?

Why have we, again, why have we got to this point where someone can propose this argument? And we will go, this is clearly nonsense, but somehow it's seen as valid. It's true. I mean, we're all just kind of lying to each other and like nodding along. We all know that, you know, no woman wants to be in prostitution for the most part. I mean, it's not an ideal for any girl or woman to be having sex with random strangers who don't respect them day in and day out. No one wants to do that. Like, most women in prostitution are doing it because they have no other choice.

And sure, there are some women who choose it. Maybe there are even some women who like it, but that's a minority. And, you know, again, like there is a reality that, like, if you listen to what women and prostitution say, if you listen to their stories, there is often a long history of sexual abuse and grooming towards that role and coercion, manipulation. Sometimes it's more overt, sometimes more subtle. But either way, we know that this industry is not an industry that respects women and girls. We know that it's like a pretty violent, dangerous, exploitative industry. And like you say, we know that if it was our daughter, we wouldn't want

her to be doing that. And we have to ask ourselves why that is. It's a very good point. Megan, we're out of time, unfortunately. So we've got just one more question for you. And the question, we always finish is, what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? I don't know if there's a one thing, but I mean, I really want to have more conversations about free speech. And I know that a lot of people are talking about free speech, but I will say that on the left and leftist circles, we are not talking about free speech. We're not advocating for free speech. And in fact, I think that in many ways we've rejected free speech as an important value in a,

democratic society. I think we need to be having more open conversations, more authentic conversations. So yeah, I mean, I can't say that's one thing for society, but that's something that's really important to me that I've been trying to push for and getting a lot of pushback against that, unfortunately, from some of those around me. Yeah, well, that's no surprise to us right there. We have some similar experiences on that front as well. Megan, but thank you so much. If people want to follow your work, where do they go for all of that? Well, unfortunately, not on Twitter.

But I'm on Instagram, Megan Emily Murphy. I'm a public Facebook page. Feministcrant.com is my website, and the same drugs is my YouTube show slash podcast. So find me everywhere but Twitter. Sounds great. Well, Megan, thank you so much for coming on the show and thank you all for watching. We will see you very, very soon with a live stream or another brilliant interview like this one. Take care. Enjoy the rest of the evening. See you soon, guys.