TRIGGERnometry - My Big Plan to Rescue Britain - Nigel Farage

Episode Date: July 31, 2024

Nigel Farage is the Leader of Reform UK and a newly-elected Member of Parliament (MP) for Clacton. As the leader of UKIP (the UK Independence Party), he was the most influential voice in bringing about the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union. He went on to lead the Brexit Party in order to advocate for a no-deal Brexit. He had previously served as a Member of the European Parliament (MEP) for South East England from 1999 until 2020. Sponsors: Direct Bullion. Download your free Guide to Gold Pensions Now. Click Here: https://trigger.directbullion.com/ Manscaped. Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code TRIGGER at https://manscaped.com Follow Nigel on X: https://x.com/Nigel_Farage Join our Premium Membership for early access, extended and ad-free content: https://triggernometry.supercast.com OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube: @xentricapc  Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/#mailinglist Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Guess who's back? Back again. I said to Don Jr. I didn't used to believe in miracles, but now I do. I mean, when you see the picture, that 3D picture of the bullet, the head, I mean, unbelievable. But my first big project is going to be the first Thursday in May next year is the English County Council election. So the plan is very, very clear. The plan is to become the centre-rider of British politics.

The plan is to replace what for 190 years we've known as a conservative party. Is it wildly ambitious? You bet your life it is. Nigel Farage, MP for Clacton, welcome to Trigonometry. Guess who's back? Back again, to quote Eminem. Congratulations on all your success. We're going to talk all about that and reform and British politics in a second.

But you've just come back from America. You were there. There's a show of support, as I understand, for your friend Donald Trump, who'd just been shot. What can you tell us that we haven't heard? You haven't done many interviews actually recently. What can you tell us about Donald Trump's state of mind, what you saw out there?

I mean, obviously, if you've been through a near-death experience, you're in a strange place for a week or two. I've been through a couple myself. I know what it feels like. Although mine were accidents, this was a genuine intent to kill. I think the reaction of the family was even more interesting. I mean, they are just incandescent.

How the hell can a guy with a high-velocity rifle and a sight get onto a roof 125 yards away from Trump? How is that possible? What has happened to Secret Service? I mean, I've been to so many events in America run by Secret Service. And normally, you know, all the buildings around, there are snipers up on the roof. Everyone's frisked and checked probably more than once. Complete failure. Whether this is a D-E-I thing,

whether she was put into the position because she was a woman and she worked at PepsiCo. You mean the head of the secret service? Yeah, and that ticked all of Biden's boxes. I don't know. But the family, very, very angry indeed. Is it going to fundamentally change him?

No. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. He's 78. He's not going to change for anybody. But it was a miracle. I said to Don Jr. I didn't used to believe in miracles. but now I do.

I mean, when you see the picture, that 3D picture of the bullet, the head, I mean, unbelievable, unbelievable. So thank God, literally, thank God that Trump was spared. And America was spared. Well, I can't even imagine how awful things would have been. What do you think would have happened if the assassination attempt had been successful? I think we would have seen a total breakdown in respect. for lawmakers and for law enforcers right across America.

I think the implications of that would have been very, very serious. America is in a very fraught place. You know, it's a level of division that we don't even understand in this country. Well, at least not yet. It's coming, but not yet. And something needs to change, but it's difficult. And one of the things that you guys have charted on trigonometry since you started has been the growth

of the illiberal, liberal. You know, the person that I might disagree with fundamentally politically, but I respect their right to their opinion or I think they're a bit batty, but, you know, fine. Whereas they think I'm evil and I should be silenced

and when you get a group of human beings who think they're superior to another group of human beings, well then anything goes. Literally anything goes, whether it's, using the legal system in a way that it was never intended to be, whether it's comedians,

regularly saying things that are totally extraordinary. But they believe that's all justified. And so I think, I mean, all of that was a contributory factor to the mind of this young man that wanted to kill Trump. I mean, I'm not saying assassinations are new. They're not. America has seen this, sadly, too often in the past. But I do think that the core.

of the division is the illiberalism of the new left. And it's really interesting as well to see the Democrats' response to it. And then barely a week later, Biden stands down. I mean, who would have predicted that? Me. I predicted it last September. I wrote a piece last September in Newsweek in which I said Biden will not be the candidate. How this mainstream media, you know, I'm talking New York Times,

CNN, senior officials in the Democrat Party, Nancy Pelosi, the former speaker, etc. I mean, they have been conning the American public for a very long period of time that Biden was up to the job of being leader of the free world when very clearly he wasn't. So, yeah, I think, and Cameron Harris has come in and they all say she's wonderful. Well, you wait, you wait. There'll be plenty of banana skins on the way. Because we sort of glossed over that point about the Democrat Party. But they were going, this is a man who is perfectly able to stand.

He is competent, he's lucid. And then you see him on stage. Bring Vladimir Zelensky to the stage as Vladimir Putin. And now I want to hand it over to the president of Ukraine, who has as much courage as he has determination. Ladies and gentlemen, President Putin. President Putin. He's going to beat President Putin.

President Zelensky. He'd just about recovered from the debate the month before. But, of course, the NATO summit, they couldn't hide him. They could not hide him. Yeah. And then, of course, he introduced Kamala Harris as Vice President, elect Trump. Yeah, I mean, look, you know, we can laugh,

but it's not funny, really, is it? Because it was the withdrawal of the last 3,000 American troops. from Afghanistan, despite the fact no American soldier had been killed for 18 months. They were just training the Afghan army, which was doing all the heavy lifting and fighting at great loss. The leaving behind of nearly $100 billion worth of really prime American military equipment.

And it was that catastrophe and handing the Taliban back the keys after 20 years that led to Putin doing what he did in Ukraine. I have no doubt. that if Trump had been in the White House, that would not have happened. So the serious side is that Biden finishes four years with the world a very much more dangerous place than it was when he took over. And if you think about just the Democrats, they're not fit for purpose.

How can you have a party saying he's fit to run? And at the same time, you look at him and he looks like someone's granddad who's no longer able to function. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, many of us have seen somewhere in our immediate or near families, you know, what the effect of dementia is and it's horrendous and you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. And they've just been hiding this and hiding him doing as few public engagements as he possibly could, scripted, you know, to the nth degree. I mean, God knows what world leaders must have thought when they go to the Oval Office. Kier Starman was nice about him, but then I guess as a brand new brief, you know, British Prime Minister, it might have been undiplomatic to say that he's a complete old duffer.

Yeah, no, the Democrats, I mean, they, they, what's interesting is in Harris, they've got somebody who is really way out there on the liberal wing. But aligned to that. Can I just pause you there? You said she's way out there. What do you mean by that? Oh, I think on, you know, critical race theory. I think on trans rights.

I think on all these issues. I think on her support for Black Lives Matter, you know, when they were setting fire to places and killing people, but no problem because they're lovely people. You know, I mean,

that's where she is on all this stuff. She's also quite inconsistent. You know, she'll chop and change as suits. And so I think this initial rush of money that has come for her, this, oh, the poles are tightening, the poles are tightening,

maybe she's in the lead, all this stuff that we've got just a few days. days in, I don't believe it'll last. I don't think that she will bear examination and scrutiny. I just don't. You know what's interesting about what we're talking about, Nigel, is if you're a neutral observer and you're watching, forget about what you're on politics or anything, you're just watching the coverage and then you're watching the reality afterwards. And you go, these people told me that Joe Biden was in perfect health and the right person, and then next week he resigns

and clearly not in perfect health and not the right person. Now the new narrative is, Kamala Harris is not a DEI hire. Well, if you go back and look at the media coverage at the time, they were all saying the next vice president must be a black woman. Yes. And now people like me who are pointing that out are being told, no, no, no, you imagined it. There's this.

And if you were a neutral observer looking, if you had a memory and you were able to remember what they said before it changed, I think you must be just completely disillusioned with anything that you're reading or watching now. Well, I am. I am and you know you have to ask what is mainstream media for

I mean we've got the BBC in this country which pretends to be neutral well maybe we'll talk about my interactions with them through the election campaign in a moment CNN and America it doesn't even attempt neutrality

mind you you could say by the same token nor does Fox News but the whole purpose of journalism any form of journalism is yes, to have it. Fine, have an opinion. If you're allowed to have an opinion,

a newspaper is owned by a proprietor, and it has an opinion, and that's fine. But it's also to challenge. You know, it is opposition politics and the media that challenges government and holds it to account and speaks truth to power. And we see less of that going on

with a Democrat administration that we probably ever see. What does happen, though, is I saw that interview that Emily Maitliss did with you, out in America. And is that the sense you've got that he's having a tough time right now? He nearly died. Do you think he's having a tough time right now?

He nearly died. I saw it because it was tweeted by her or somebody connected to her. And it had millions of views and thousands and tens of thousands of likes. And I thought, okay, well, she must have got Farage. Like, let's watch this. This will be interesting. And then I watched it. I couldn't even understand why anybody liked or responded to her

because it was just her asking you, if Donald Trump is okay and you're going he's just been shot and that seemed to be the entire but he was celebrated as some kind of victory like you'd been scalped I think the other way around I think I spoiled her evening

you know and you'll find actually millions of views on the other side in support of me but yeah how anybody supporting Emily and makes this thought that was a victory for her I have no idea I thought she made herself look very very stupid and that's just not good journalism and good broadcasting and why

would anyone want to speak to her? I mean, I won't bother to speak to her again. Why would you? What's the point? There needs to be an exchange of views. There needs to be a debate, and you can disagree. But frankly, her behaviour is appalling. And it just makes me nostalgic for people like Andrew Neal. And we all knew that Andrew Neal was conservative.

He leaned towards the right. But you know the moment that he was in that BBC studio, it didn't matter if it was Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn, he was going to be absolutely fair, and he was going to be relentless. Andrew Neal, brilliant. The other one, John Humphreys. John Humphrey's, terrific. You know, the number of times I did the Today program, going into the studio, you know, debating with John. And he would always, after the interview, come out into the corridor,

have a laugh about what was said, say goodbye, mutual respect. And these were enormous figures. was figures in our lives for decades. Now we have Nick Robinson. There you go. Well, since we've moved back to the UK, let's move back to the UK, Nigel. One of the big sort of like memes, let's say, about you, he's never been elected. He's never, he ran for Parliament, so many, he stood for parliament so many times. Now you're the MP. Does it feel good to get that monkey off you back? Was that something that bothered you? No, no, no. It's all coblers, isn't it? It's all cobblers. Number one, I was elected five times to the European Parliament, the last two times, top of the list of the south-east of England, and leading a party to national victory.

When UKIP won in 2014, it was the first time a national election had been won by a party that wasn't Labour or the Conservatives since 1906. And when the Brexit Party won in 2019, I became the first man in British history to lead two different parties to two national victories. But that, of course, was proportion of representation. Then we get the fix of first past the post and all that goes with it. When I was standing in the 90s for UKIP, saving a deposit was the cause for a wild night out. So they weren't runs at Parliament. That was us saying the way to get heard is to stand and start taking votes. And it took a long time what we got there.

I'd stood once seriously before this down in Fan it. They cheated so much. one of the party agents got a nine-month prison sentence suspended for breaking electoral law. It was the one time I'd stood before. So a lot of this stuff that was out there on social media is just cobblers. When I sat here with you 18 months ago, I talked about the gap that I felt was emerging in politics, that effectively the real differences between Labor and Conservative,

are very, very marginal. Yeah, Labour will be a bit worse on the social stuff, but not much. I mean, really not much. Yeah, sure, Labour will put our taxes up, but look at what this lot have done over the course of the last 14 years. And it was the fact that Conservative Party,

ever since David Cameron became leader, has just stopped even pretending to stand up for conservative causes. I had to think a long time before deciding to go back into it. For me, it's a lot to give. give up. You know, having a 60th birthday earlier this year, just had two grandkids, all four of my kids are now adults and getting on with their lives. I've loved GB News. I mean, it's been

the best job I've ever had. I mean, what? I can sit there at 7 o'clock in front of a TV screen with no script and just do my stuff for an hour, four nights a week. So I've loved all of that. I've been going back and forth to America, giving speeches, at colleges, at foundations, at political events, income has been really good, health reasonable, better than it should be. You know, and so to give all that up to go back into a life of intense public scrutiny, big decision, big decision. So my thinking was that confidence in politics as a whole is breaking down, belief that the first past the post system is the right way to run the country, diminishing very, very much

more quickly than anyone cares to admit or even wants to talk about. And that the centre of gravity of public opinion is still a majority of a common sense. And that much of that's not being reflected in our politics. And so there the feeling that I was doing this, not for a short-term hit, but to really fundamentally try and reshape the whole of British politics. That's why I'm back. So let me ask you this, Nigel. It was clear to me, looking at the numbers, the Conservatives didn't lose to Labor, they lost to reform. That's what happened at the last election. It's very clear. The question then is, what's the plan? Because for you to do much, much better at the next

election and to do what you want to do, which is to take over the right wing space in British politics, you're going to have to do a lot of things. You're going to have to peel off some Tory defectors. For example, are you looking to try and get people like Soella to come to reform? We don't need any Tory defectors. You're wrong. What we need to do is concentrate on what we do. People spend too much of their lives worrying about the other bloke. Worry about what you do. It's actually quite good advice in every walk of life. Now, if defectors come, That's great. You've had defectors in the past.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. In fact, I could have had a lot of defectors going back 10 years, but I set the bar very high. I said if you was an MP, what had the effect to UKIP? You've got to hold a by-election as a matter of honour. And two came and two did, you know, fulfil that obligation. Others would have come but didn't want to go through the by-election test. And no question, both Carswell and Reckler's coming, was very helpful. Very helpful indeed.

In fact, it meant that Cameron, there was no way Cameron could rat on a referendum if he won the next election. No, if defectors want to come, that's great. But if they want to come and bring their Conservative Party poison with them, please stay where you are. Because they really spent most of the last four years fighting each other, not standing up for the country. I mean, it's been an ongoing charade, hasn't it? You know, with Boris, with splits, the One Nation lot, the Euro-Skeptics. I mean, it's so boring, boring, boring, it's not even true. So if they want to bring that into reform, I've no interest in having you at all.

If you want to come in and help me reshape the centre-righted British politics to debate genuinely the size of a state, whether the state is delivering on its obligations to its citizens, what free enterprise is actually all about, and maybe to redefine what the national interest is. What are we? And I think what is really happening in the country is in their tens of millions. People are asking themselves, what is happening to our country? What is going on? There is a massive identity crisis out there.

Huge. What does it mean to be British anymore? In particular, what does it mean to be English anymore? What are the values that we stand up and represent? What is our place in the world? Why is the town 20 miles down the road now literally unrecognizable in every way? Why are my kids being poisoned at school and told that everything about our history is wicked and evil? That's the really big debate that's happening in Britain. And politics isn't filling that gap. And that's why you saw a miserable turnout. Less than 60% despite postal voting on a level which makes it easier for a lot of people to vote.

It's why the share for the two so-called main parties fell below two thirds for the first time ever in modern history. There is a big sense of dissatisfaction out there. people are looking for something that is positive, people are looking for something that is affirmative, people are looking for something that redefines identity and values and culture. And I said all through the campaign, four weeks and three days was all I had,

but I said all through the campaign, the three things that are driving us as a political party, but we're really a movement, are family, community and country. they're the things that we believe in. We know in our own minds are definitions of what those things mean and

to get four and a bit million votes and a handful of us elected into the House of Commons is just the first step on that journey. As I said a moment ago, I could just retire, I could do a bit of telly, enjoy life, you know, none of us know how long we're going to be here.

But I'm not going to do that, I'm absolutely dedicated to this because I think there's a possibility of something very major happening politically I believe that I can be the catalyst for it I may not be the person in the end

that ever gets to wear the crown I've been quite good in the past at being kingmaker you know I'm not sure Mr Johnson would ever have made it to number 10 if I hadn't done the things that I'd done but that's fine as long as they deliver just that Boris didn't deliver

and so that sends a betrayal. So what's the plan? This is why I'm asking, Nigel. As you say, you've given up a lot of opportunities to do this. And you've got five MPs, which is a solid result. Some people thought you would get way more. Some people thought you wouldn't. But to go from five MPs to making the type of impact you're talking about,

you have got five years of very, very hard work. And the question that a lot of people might be asking is, what is it that you're actually trying to do? What does a reform success five years from now look like, and how do you get there? Well, and that goes back to my priorities. I've got three things to do, haven't I, fundamentally, politically. Number one is to serve the constituency of Clacton and its people. As an MEP, I just represented those that voted for me.

But as an MP, you have a deeper responsibility towards that community. So, you know, I'm getting going on that. But, of course, you start with nothing. You've got to hire staff and get offices and do all those things. Number two, people want me to be effective within the parliamentary estate and in the chamber. But they're my smallest jobs. They're my smallest jobs. My biggest job is we have to build a national political party.

The Brexit party was a pop-up. You know, it came out of nowhere because Theresa May was not going to deliver Brexit. A second referendum was coming down the track. this deadline that we had in 2019 for leaving at the end of the if you remember Article 50 process wasn't going to happen and so I thought right we've got to do something

so the Brexit party was a pop-up rebellion very successful pop-up rebellion I then withdrew the troops if you remember against Boris Johnson said guys you know what I don't really like the deal very much but it's the best we're going to get

and then I rebranded it as the Brexit part as Reform UK, I said to Richard Tice, look, I'm done. I'm completely, again. I've done it before, I'm done. I'm done it before. I'm done here. And Richard kept it going for three years

at considerable personal, financial, and time cost to himself. But really, reform was, reform was like an insurance policy. You know, I've just renewed my house insurance the other day. Now, I don't want there to be a fire and for that premium to pay out,

but it's quite wise to pay premium. And that's what reform was. I became the honorary president of the thing, sort of, you know, kicked upstairs, played no active role. And Richard kept it going. But it was really when I decided, right, I'm going to come back to this. That was on June the 3rd. It's really a concept. It wasn't a party with structure. It wasn't a party that had a vetting procedure. In fact, many of those, many of the candidates were last minute. Charlie Charlie calls, Please, anybody, someone stand somewhere, you know. So to succeed, we've got to build a national political infrastructure.

We've got to raise tens of millions of pounds. We've got to create the feeling of discipline within the party, whilst at the same time understanding individual conscience. and that's a balance that party leaders always struggle with. They're always accused by the press of either being started or being absolutely useless, you know, and weak. And we have to succeed at other elections. The Liberal Democrats, it's very interesting this.

They've won 72 seats. You know, a huge percentage of their national vote is in those 72 seats. Why? Because Paddy Ashdown put them on a path back in the 90s where you build local teams, local bases, you start winning council seats. And only when you've won a certain number of council seats,

do you even have half a chance of winning a parliamentary seat? That was the Ashdowne formula. It worked brilliantly. You know, they had this big rise in seats and votes up to 2010, and then Clegg was seen to blow it. That was over students and money predominantly. But the Lib Dems have come back, and it's very interesting.

Even when the national opinion polls for the Lib Dems had them on the floor, they were still doing well in council by elections. So building that grassroots base. So my first big project, and I haven't really talked about this before, but my first big project is going to be the first Thursday in May next year is the English County Council elections. There are 2,300 county council seats up for grabs. and that is my first big target. And you can judge me whether I'm doing well or badly on that day. But I think if, and it's a big if, we can build the structure. We can find over 2,000 really good, solid, reliable people who think the right way.

And I'm prepared to give up time, you know, for their local counties and communities. I think we can make a massive step forward. And I It's interesting People think oh well of course You'll just hurt the Tories You know one of the reasons that Labor vote share Was down at 33.8%

Was more Labour votes Came to reform Than anybody has yet Given it credit for And I found it really interesting But the Sunday after the election There was Tony Blair In the Sunday Times

Saying the Labour Party Need to watch reform He gets it He gets that our message resonates very strongly in those red wall seats. He gets it that in over 100 seats, second to Labour isn't the Conservatives. It's reform. So I think we've got huge potential. I think next year is very, very big.

The year after that we have at Welsh Parliament elections. The Welsh Labour vote was down 3.9%. You know, we've got a real opportunity coming up in these years. Now, you know, leading up to that, obviously, there's policy development, there's fundraising, the structure. There's all the things that I've said. So the plan is very, very clear. The plan is to become the centre-rider British politics. The plan is to replace what for 190 years we've met as a conservative party.

Is it wildly ambitious? You bet your life it is. But that's what I'm going to try and do. they are not fit for purpose they serve no agenda they stand for nothing it's almost irrelevant who becomes the leader

you know I mean I'm personally I want James cleverly personally I'm quite prepared to put some money into the campaign if that's what's needed I think it'd be just perfect but they are so split you know I mean

take attitudes towards me I'm a very very good you know, sort of diviner of where we are with conservatives. The Jacob Rees-Mogg's of the party think I should be involved and invited in and you've got scores of other

One Nation MPs who think I know I shouldn't even be spoken to in the team room and that sums up the divide that exists within the party and I can't see him sorting it out. Nigel, whenever we're, we talk to people on this show, they always spit into two camps in either you can reform the institutions or we need to essentially break them up. They're no longer fit for purpose. When you look at our major political parties, and let's include the Labour Party in this, because they're important

as well, where do you stand? Can we save these parties and reform them, or are they already too far gone? Well, electoral reform would blow it up overnight. And of course it would. You know, By that, do you mean PR? Yes. Oh, yes. I mean, the Conservative Party and Labour Party, as they are, would not exist. We have a very, very different system. Do you know, people might even go and vote for what they believe in.

I'm going to vote for them because I really, I don't like them, but I really hate them. That's kind of where a lot of people are voting on negatives and not on positives, and maybe that also reflects the debate. America's a bit like that, isn't it? Yeah. First passed the post. two-party system, you know, you think we're bad? Have a look at the other guy. You know, that's kind of how it's been for years in America.

Even without electoral reform, that narrowing of the margins between what the two get and the others get is going to diminish. We've also got the new specter, which I've been talking about for some time, of, you know, It's sad and it's dangerous, but sectarian voting. You know, people avowedly standing on Muslim religious tickets, and four of them got elected, and I suppose with Corbyn as an independent, it's almost five. That will only grow, so that will diminish and hurt the Labour Party. The radical Greens, who are just so far to the left of almost anybody,

who also, of course, have quite a number of deeply intolerant people, particularly when it comes to the Jewish community, etc. That vote on the left's going to grow. And the demographics mean that the sectarian vote will grow. You know, we have a particular problem with 18 to 24-year-old young Muslim men in Britain, British-born, a growing number being attracted to concepts such as jihad, etc. And I believe reform can only grow from here as well. So, you know, even with the system, big change is coming.

So what it really sounds like is a society that's going to become ever more divided and ever more fractured? Yes, I think it will. I think the forces behind sectarian voting are growing. The forces behind the Green Party are also growing. You know, much of it coming straight from our universities. the Unis, which I call the madrasas of Marxism, you know, and and yeah, and that group of people reflect the illiberal liberal liberalism that we started off this podcast talking about. These are people with very, very extreme views, very extreme views, and particularly

their attitudes towards money and success. I mean, can you believe it? Last year, last year, more multi-millionaires left Britain last year than any other country in the world. And why? Well, because of what Jeremy Hunter's Chancellor did, to non-dom status, tax across the board. And if you overtax people, they disappear. And the number of people I know that are going. And not just multimillionaires.

Younger, aspirational people. a lot went to Lisbon over the course of the last few years. Milan, which by the way is a fab city. But I wouldn't mind living in Milan, you know. Milan is just saying, come on down. You know, come with your business. You want to go on and make lots of money. Make this your home.

So we're losing not just the super rich that are leaving, but aspirational entrepreneurs are leaving our country as well. And labor will make that even worse. So, yeah, divisions along the lines of religion, sort of, you know, Jewish, Muslim, then you got Christianity, which still exists, believe it or not, there is still an Archbishop of Canterbury. I know we haven't heard from him, about 20 years. But, but, but, but, so that, that religious divide is growing in the country. But there's also this, this wealth, uh, divide that is growing, where the growing number on the left, despise those that have money. I mean, if you think about it, really, you know, it is Marxism all

over again, isn't it? Then we have the race divide, which doesn't exist, but people want to exist because that's their industry. And when I say it doesn't exist, I genuinely don't think it exists compared to almost every other country on the planet. I think our general level of attitude towards different races, different nationalities, different skin colors, I think we're the most relaxed people on earth.

And I mean, you know, you've written about this and talked about this in the past. But there comes a point at which we say, who are we? What is our identity? So, yeah, the divides are going to get worse.

I sense the way in which we're governed is just not going to improve. Labor want more and more and more devolution. Well, that's fine in theory, but in practice you've got to ask, is devolution actually working? It doesn't look very good in Wales to me, right at the moment, or Scotland, but that's just my point of view.

And so we need something to come through the middle of all of this that genuinely puts us back on a path to national renewal. Now, the only good thing about all this is the situation in Europe is far worse. You sound like one of those politicians. If you think we're crap, look at them. Well, no, I mean, but it is. Yeah. It's a very British thing.

Look at the French. Well, but look at the French. You know, I mean, you know, the French economically and socially are in a far worse place than we are. And that's cold comfort farms talk in that way. But, boy, we've got an awful lot of sort of. No wonder they're all coming here as refugees. I was going to, I mean, this is a proof. Not really provocative question, but when we talk about this,

aren't we just using politics to try and solve a cultural problem? And the reality is that politics' ability to solve that problem is fairly limited, isn't it? No. No, that's nonsense. Politics has caused the problem. Completely irresponsible, uncontrolled, mass migration, has not just diminished the quality of life for almost everybody in this country dramatically in the last 25 years,

and particularly the last 14, but it has also led to many of these divisions. I mean, look, you know, and I've said this a thousand times, but I'll say it again briefly, from Win Rush until the election of the Blair government, net migration into Britain was 13,000. to 50,000 people a year. Through the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, I did it in my maiden speech

in Parliament. What's it been under the Conservatives for the last few years? Even net. Net, we're talking millions. There are 10 million more people living in Britain than the where Mr Blair came to power. Everywhere you go, you'll see 50 houses being built on here, 300 houses being built on there. Does that mean there are more GP surgeries? Does it hell? Does it mean there are more roads? Does it hell? Does it mean your kids' process? of buying a house has just got better or worse, it's got worse. So no, politics has caused much of this. And those of us on the outside that have warned about this massive population increase

and said, all the numbers you give for GDP growth are actually wrong. And now people are waking up. It's made us poorer. Oh, great for the big multinationals. Great for the big employers. It's at record levels of legal migration. GDP goes up, and GDP per capita fell for six consecutive quarters in the run up to this election. And the great British public are waking up to this.

And then you have the cultural problem. And I touched on it earlier. Parts of the country being literally unrecognisable. Language being used by the extreme within the Muslim community. that if you or I said any of those things the other way around, we'd probably get arrested and put in prison. No, politics has caused many of these problems. Therefore, logically, politics has to try to help to find some of the solutions.

Well, let me ask you about that, Nigel. The interview we released before this one was with the Silicon Valley investor called Peter Thiel. He's a very interesting guy, interesting thoughts about many things. But one of his central themes for a long time has been that what is how he's how. happening to much of the world, actually, but particularly in the Western world, is an economic stagnation. We're not innovating in the real world of building and making things, etc. We're innovating in computing. We're making new AI and all of that. But really, the economy is stagnating, and much of the division and many of the political problems that we talk about in his view

are a product of. And immigration will be a good example of this because mass immigration of low-skilled labour that's happening. I know you and I probably agree. partly it's ideological. There are people who think immigration is the thing that we must subject ourselves to because it's the morally right thing to do. But when you talk to people who have just left government, what they'll tell you is, well, we try to reduce the number of people coming, but then the Treasury won't let us. Why? Because we know the economic growth, not per capita, but the headline figure is going to go down. So essentially, mass immigration is a way to pretend we're growing when we're not.

Aligned to, and this is, by the way, no one talks about, I mean, we got, I'm off the Parliament after this, Rachel Reeves will tell us, we've just discovered a 19 billion pound black hole in Maturi's numbers, how that's possible when it's all in the OBR books, I've no idea, but what's the real black hole? What's the real economic black hole? It's 2.7 trillion. Oh, wash my mouth. That was soap and water.

We're not supposed to talk about that. That's our national debt. It's almost trebled since David Cameron came into office in 2010. That's, so without us living on borough money and without mass imported cheap labor, goodness only knows. Would be in a massive recession. What the true state of the economy would be.

Hence my question, Nigel, which is, how do we get out of this economically? Let's say, you know, buy some miracle And miracles do happen, as you mentioned earlier. At the time of the next election, whether it's sort of packed with the Conservatives, I know that you probably spit at me as I say. Whatever. Let's say that you are actually in charge of the country.

How do we get this country with this level of debt, with this addiction to low-skill, low-wage immigration, etc., growing in such a way that we can actually fix these problems? Well, several steps we have to take. But number one is to recognize that real economic growth doesn't come through a handful of giant multinational companies. It comes through millions of individuals taking risk. Taking risk with a profit motive.

Oh, my goodness me. There I go again, using forbidden words. But actually, you know, when human beings are incentivized to do stuff and they set up their own companies or go out as sole traders, they remove a massive burden from the state. These people don't get holiday pay or any other entitlements. like that. So the encouragement of individual entrepreneurship and the great 80s boom in the British economy was led not from, yes of course Nissan came. Yes, of course big things happened, but actually

the real economic revolution came from the bottom up. It came from lots and lots of people going out, taking risks, borrowing money, setting up businesses. And what have we done to that? We absolutely stuffed it. I mean, small business hates both the Labour and Conservative parties and rightly so. We run a small business, I can tell you we do. Well, IR-35, absolute nightmare for the self-employed. Corporation tax up 30% last year, which damages reinvestment in your firm and every other firm around the country. A regulatory burden, which in some areas now is worse than it was before Brexit. Worse.

Now, we're in charge. The man from the ministry making life an absolute misery. That's one thing we have to do. Nigel, but hold on. You've just listed a list of problems that I completely agree. with you about all of which could be dealt with well how this is the question right because your argument would be well you've got to cut taxes get people the opportunity to make money etc but if we are so indebted already actually what i said with three things of which tax was just

one part okay and i wasn't suggesting radical cuts in tax so how do we do that's all i'm asking i was suggesting going back to where we started when we had a corporation tax that people paid and thought was reasonable all right what i was talking about was regulatory burden what i was talking about were disincentive incentives to selling up. What I was talking about with IR 35 is now an impossible piece of legislation that makes it very, very hard for people

to be self-employed. Look, I'm not trying to trap you. No, no, no, no, but I'm arguing passionately. Government can sort all of... You know, it's back to your point earlier, Francis. Actually, government... There's a lot government can do. Government can't create wealth.

But government can create the environment in which individuals have got the incentive to go out and better themselves and in doing so, better the whole of the country. And I don't believe that's hard at all. Because the problem is, is when you look at the amount of people in this country,

I can't remember the figure off the top of my head who are not working. It's terrifying. It's genuinely terrifying. And a lot of them are just not looking for work, which shows, to me, that is defeat. They've given up. And no one's got the guts to deal with it

or even talk about it. I mean, you know, we've got three and a half times the number of people on disability benefit that we had 40 years ago. I think about it. 40 years ago, people were working in heavy engineering, working in factories, working down the pit. Industrial injuries were a very real part of lives for many, many working class communities. Well, that's not the case anymore. And you actually, under this government, during the pandemic, you could through a quick online consultation. Be signed off on mental health issues get an extra 375 pounds a month in benefits without the obligation of even having to go and look for a job

That's what that's what government's done we've allowed this to happen their benefits are hard It was once described to me rather like there There's a big dog there big aggressive dog there and you've got a bone Up on the table that you can choose not to give that dog the bone But once you've given the dog the benefit bone. You try and get the bone back, right? It's not easy.

And it's going to take somebody with huge political courage to deal with, and they'll be accused of sending people back to slavery, they'll be accused of human cruelty, they'll be accused of everything under the sun. But we have to get people who are unemployed back to work.

Now, I'm not arguing, we shouldn't be a compassionate society, but we've got the lines in the wrong places. And I'm I'm reminded of Reagan back in the late 80s, middle late 80s, who introduced work fair. He said, you know, we just can't have all these people being paid not to work. So we're going to give them jobs to do. We're going to get them out building roads.

Amazing how many of them actually found jobs. So we're going to have to be very tough on that. And no one's got the courage to do it. There's been a little bit of talk about it because there was an election campaign going on. But to have the courage to deal with, that's got to be very, very real. We also have to rewire how people think. And this is going to be even harder, because as government gets bigger, people become more dependent upon it. And the constant refrain is, why can't government give us more?

We want more money. Why can't government give us more? And the increase in the size of the state in the last few years have been here. And the pandemic sums it up, doesn't it? I mean, you know, our liberty is taken away. But it's okay, you can stay at home because we'll pay you not to work. So a rewiring of the minds of younger people, particularly when it comes to what is success, what is happiness, what is fulfilment. And I'm not sure we're really debating this stuff.

Now, the one thing I'm happy with is what is what is? is I'm seeing in Gen Z quite a big reversal that I didn't see with the millennials. An awful lot of young people now, a growing number of young people now are actually rejecting what they're being taught, are really ambitious, what I get on, and I hope this is the start of something positive, but it's coming as a reaction

to, frankly, just pure, Socialism, strong state socialism, there's being taught in virtually every school in Britain. I've had quite a big uptick in support from young people or, I don't know, some sort of fame, I guess, with the teams out there. And, you know, I'm approaching a million on TikTok, followers, etc. And I do some fun stuff. It's a bit crazy, some of it, but they seem to like it. And I did the jungle.

on ITV last year and all the rest of it. But it's very interesting to hear the frustrations of young people. You know, getting a house, getting a good job. All they want is what their mum and dad have had. That's all they want, all their granddad have had. And they feel that society is somehow taking that away from them. But there's a much more can-do attitude among them. But they're deciding this for themselves.

and on social media platforms. We are not, through the education system, teaching people, that actually, do you know what, being self-reliance quite good? But the problem is, and as we touched on before, which is political courage. So what we have now is a Labour government that are not going to challenge this. They're not going to address this

because they don't want to alienate their core fan base because they market themselves as the caring party. So it's a rather pessimistic question, but isn't everything going to get worse for the next four or so years whilst we have a Labour government? Yes, and it would have done. Rishi won. It just made much difference, really. They'll just make it worse more quickly.

I mean, that's the only fundamental difference. I've been sitting in the House of Commerce now for three weeks. They didn't disagree on anything. Even at Prime Minister's questions, the leader of the opposition, now Rishi Seelot gets some and says, how we wholeheartedly agree. I mean, they agree on virtually everything. Yeah, all of these problems are going to get worse. And remember, this government

does not have a huge tidal wave of love behind it. You know, 33.8% of the vote. A third of the vote, yet two-thirds of the seats. Very few front benches who I think are very competent. One or two are. One or two are, no question, but a lot of them are completely untested. Rachel Reeves on economics,

you're having a laugh, aren't you? No idea. absolutely blooming clueless. I'm convinced of that. And love for this government's going to run out very, very quickly. All the problems that we've talked about already, of people getting poorer, of our chronic productivity levels, of those divisions in society that we ran through earlier, they're all going to get worse, which means there's a bigger and bigger gap. In fact, the gap is so much bigger than when I sat here with you in February 2020. There is an enormous gap for a new kind of politics that is much more bullish, much more assertive, and much more optimistic.

And that is what in reform we are going to do. Well, that's the big opportunity for you. One of the things somebody put to me recently, and I said, oh, you're into me for us. You've got to talk. Is this idea of a pact with the Tories of the next election? I think we're nearly over, aren't we? Look, as I said earlier, people spend their lives worrying about what the other guy is doing. We are building something here.

We're very optimistic about it. I've appointed a new party chairman, very successful young entrepreneur. He's 37, Zia Yusuf. And he's from the Muslim community, but from the majority, moderate Muslim community. He believes in what I believe in. He believes in family. He believes in community. He believes in this country.

And we're working together on a really exciting project. And you transform my morning by asking me, do I want to do a deal with this terrible bunch of backstabbers that wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and popped them on the nose? That is not my ambition. No, I'm not suggesting even remotely that that would be your ambition. What I'm suggesting is that may be the way that you actually start to have a real impact on this country in a way that you've had today, admittedly. But this would be an opportunity for actually a party that you have strong influence over to be in government. That would be quite an opportunity, wouldn't it? I have no idea what I'm having for lunch tomorrow, let alone what the relative strength or merits.

It's become a politician. No, I've no idea. There needs to be a realignment of politics. And it's not, but as I say, everyone obsesses about the conservative. party in my relationship or non-relationship with it. But I still believe there are a huge number of Labour voters out there that actually agree with many of the values that I believe in and that we're going to promote. So maybe, if there is a radical realignment of British politics, maybe it's even more

radical than anybody at the moment can yet even begin to imagine. Look, when I started all this off 30 years ago, exactly 30 years ago, it was 19. In fact, more than that, 31 years ago, it was 93 when, you know, it was a young businessman, one of my own little brokerage firm in the city, I said, I've got to do something. I've got to get involved, this European thing, you know, this is a mile away from the common market that we thought we were joining when I was a kid. I can see where it's going. We need to leave it. And everyone told me I was a complete nudgeon. Nigel Bonkers Farage, as private I call me,

week after week, year after year. And that's fine. But you know what? My vision then of what Europe would become with a full political union and why we shouldn't be part of it, that came to pass. And I've got a lot of things wrong in my life,

huge number of things wrong in my life, but occasionally I get things right. And what I'm good at, I believe, is seeing the very big picture. I'm thinking outside the day-to-day, outside the petty, the pinniquity, and looking at the big picture. And that was my big call then, and my big call now, is that a major change and realignment in British politics is coming,

that the electoral system itself, whether that's the voting system, whether that's the powers of patronage on display in the House of Lords, all of this is going to change. All of this is going to change. And I think some good can come of it. You mentioned Europe, Nigel, before we start to get towards the end of the interview. I mean, a similar thing is happening in Europe.

They have very different histories and political systems and everything else, but it's very clear that you've got the radical left and, you know, a response from the right both going up at the same time. How do you see Europe and what's happening there? Because many of the issues that we've talked about, whether it's the Muslim stuff or anything else, is happening there on an even bigger scale. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Europe is, as I said earlier, you know, far worse place than we are.

The politics of Europe is changing very, very rapidly. It will go on changing very rapidly. I don't think that the current European political structures can survive. I think there is a major... I believe there is going to be a very major financial shock. that is coming back over the course of the next five years, maybe six years, I don't know.

I think that you can kid yourself all you like. Do you remember modern monetary theory? A couple of years ago. I mean, the biggest load of baloney I've ever heard in my... But people believed it. There were university professors talking about modern monetary theory.

You just create money. It's all going to be lovely. And if the 2008 big crash was precipitated by an excess of debt, an excess of individual debt, an excess of corporate debt through some of those housing deals in America, an excess of national debt leading to terrible crises in the Eurozone and huge money transfers to Greece and countries like that, that wasn't even a fraction of where we are now. It wasn't even a fraction of where we are now. We are desperately in debt. We've had one dose of inflation and inflation is a disease of money caused by government. You'll never ever forget that phrase because it's true. And much of this is going to come crashing down.

And when that happens, there will be huge political change in Europe, although I'm not sure it'll be changed for the better. because much of the so-called right in Europe is actually wedded to the same economic philosophies that have put us in this mess in the first place. And so they would be cultural shifts exacerbated by a financial crash. What I'm hoping here is that we're able, when these difficult times come, that we're able to come back with a set of economic as well as cultural policies that put us in the right place.

Francis, let me just ask one quick question. Nigel, I hate to ask this question because it sounds very black and white, one-dimensional, etc. But the way you described it there, financial problems, more inflation, the radical left versus the radical right. For anyone who studied history, there's some similarities there with a period of time about a hundred years ago in Europe. Do you see those correlation?

Yes. I mean, I worry... Are we in the 1930s? Well, obviously, obviously that, you know, the two catastrophic world wars, or one war, really, was a rivalry with Germany.

It was within Europe, whereas now it's external forces that give us the threat. Iran is a major threat to world peace. Quite why, Obama and Biden and the European Union and David Cameron and Boris Johnson

thought it was good to do deals with Iran and free up to him. tens of billions of dollars for them is beyond me. Then we got China. Or should I say China? That's my friend's it. Clearly, a very different regime to what it was 10 years ago. Ten years ago, we always thought of China

was being quite introspective. Now it's not. Putin, who, I think a lot of us 10 or 15 years ago thought was a very intelligent bloke, but now appears have lost his marbles, frankly, with what he's doing. So the world is in a very, very dangerous place. If we do head into serious conflicts, it won't be Europe.

And that's why the similarity with the 30s doesn't work directly looking at Europe. But yeah, it's a world in a very, very dangerous place. Nigel, thank you so much for coming on the show. We always finished with the last question, which is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? I think I'm going to come back to money and personal money. If you're young and watching this, you ain't getting a state pension. Forget it. It ain't going to happen. Well, they've switched off now, mate.

No, no, no, no. I think they're going to be paying attention to that. No, they get their mates to switch on. And I think that if I'm even half right about the financial situation we're in, I think one of the best indicators of that has been the gold price. and I know that I've been working with a gold company. You were sponsoring this. You were sponsoring this particular episode.

The gold price could be a lot, a lot higher. Big secret, folks, you could actually put gold bars into your pension. No pension advisor out there will ever tell you that, but you can do it. And it's a wise thing to do. And the other thing is, I don't think the crypto revolution has even begun. How so? If you don't want the state to come. control in every aspect of your life.

And I sit here talking to you. Since I was last here, I was debanked, of course, famously. We've been finding a big row with the banks. The level of control that the state and the banks want on your money, not just how you earn it, but how you spend it and how you live. And I think it was a growing realization that crypto offers some remarkable freedoms from that. And whilst it's true, there have been some appalling for all.

that have been committed within that market, I think as government gets bigger and bigger and bigger, which it will in a short term until we get this massive political revolution that I pray is going to happen. I think more and more people will be attracted to crypto. And if we were sitting in Miami now having this conversation, you could go out now and buy a Starbucks with crypto,

buy a Ferrari with crypto. This isn't just a punting mechanism. It's actually for an increasing number of people, they're choosing an alternative lifestyle. You watch it. It's going to get bigger and bigger. Nigel, thanks for coming back. Head on over to locals where we ask Nigel your questions.

Nigel, if you are PM with a sizable majority, how would you navigate the kind of issues list trust-faced in regards to the civil service and establishment players? And I will add to this the markets too.