TRIGGERnometry - Neal Brennan - Lapsed Liberal

Episode Date: December 31, 2023

Neal Brennan is an American comedian. Following the success of his latest stand-up special ‘Blocks’ (currently on Netflix), Neal launched a podcast of the same name on which he talks to fellow comedians, actors, directors, writers, authors and musicians. See him live on his national Brand New Neal tour: www.NealBrennan.com SPONSOR: Go to https://www.givesendgo.com and raise money for anything important to you. givesendgo.com and raise money for anything important to you. Become a Premium Member to receive exclusive benefits https://triggernometry.supercast.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube: @xentricapc Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Terms apply. You're a disaffected liberal, is that fair to say? I think that's very extremely fair to say. Why? I was hoping you guys would tell me. You know what's great about you and I? We both look liberal and we both look visibly disaffected. There are decisions that I think every human being makes or comes to that are in my internal Supreme Court, a five to four decision.

I think that's the thing that people won't acknowledge. Hey guys, Trigonometry needs your help. We took a big risk creating the show. And for us to keep doing the incredible work that you all love, we need your support. That's the only way we're going to stay independent and create content that you won't be able to find anywhere else. There is no other podcast where you'll hear interviews with Nigel Farage one week and the next week you've got Aaron Bastani, the founder of Left Wing Show in Navarra Media on the same platform. You know the mainstream media aren't honest.

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When you support us, you also get incredible, extra content, such as extended interviews with none of those irritating adverts, and they'll be released 24 hours early just for you. We'll have exclusive bonus interviews that only you get to hear. Click the link on the podcast description or find the link on your podcast listening app to join us. Support us and help change the way we have conversations and make the world saner. Neil, we interviewed Bill Maher a couple of days ago, and one of the things we were saying to him is how much we respect the fact that he sticks to the ethos that we always thought was the ethos of comedy, which is you make fun of both sides.

You don't go, oh, those guys over there that we hate, let's just bang on about how evil they are endlessly, but you actually make fun of both sides. And blocks your later special does that incredibly well. Is that something you were conscious of when you were doing that? Is that something that is kind of a thing that you think about? Or is it just something that comes naturally? I think the jokes come involuntarily. And then I don't go well.

I'm going to be losing. I don't want to lose. Because I've realized something. The older I get, the more I realize, you never have the group anyway, especially liberals. You never have them. There's no, the goalposts keep moving. So the purity test gets purer and purer.

So there's no point in courting them because there's no loyalty. I don't, now having said that, I think there is more loyalty on the right, but I don't believe a lot. You know what I mean? Like, I just don't agree with the, I'm like, I'm oriented to the left. You're a disaffected liberal. Is that fair to say? I think that's very, extremely fair to say. Yeah. No, I was going to say why.

I was hoping you guys would tell me. I think the, as I stated, there's not a ton of loyalty. There's, it's all the old arguments, the circular firing squad, the, the, they'd rather attack, you know, an impure liberal than a, then a, just a, super far right person. And there's blind spots that on both sides, and I think, knowing more liberals than conservatives, they just blind to them, you know. Yeah, that's the thing that I find frustrating. And as someone who would call themselves a disaffected liberal as well, that's the thing

that I struggle with. You know what's great about you and I? We both look liberal and we both look visibly disaffected. Are you saying I've got right wing vise? Well, the blazer's not doing you a ton of things. That is true. That is true. It's the centrist blazer.

It drags me to the middle. We just look sad, is what I'm trying to say. We look like we're waiting for the blur concert to start. Yeah, we do. We do. I think this is, you know what part of it is, Neil? I've got Irish heritage and I've got Latino heritage. And when you've got Irish, you get pale, you get sad.

Doesn't matter what you mix it with. You sure do. Thank you. And you drink. Oh, and then you stop drinking. Thank you. But it's interesting what you were saying, because it's the blind spots that I find frustrating.

Not that you believe a certain thing, because if you believe a certain thing, then great, believe a certain thing, whatever it is. But it's the blind spots. I'm like, can you not see this? Yeah, it's just, it's, defensiveness isn't attractive on anybody, and especially ideological defensiveness. And so it's just this it became I think in the age of social media as well It became more people became more and more intractable in their

Points of view and then it became if they could dunk on you then it was settled and it's like no this is a fixed fight This is a fixed fight. I have a term for it which is a Putin karate tournament you ever see Putin do karate seems fixed where he's just flipping people over and just like so there's most of the internet is a is a Putin's karate tournament and and and

but then everybody gets in their their silos and it's just it and then it's just a pure diet of of confirmation bias and it's it's I feel like it's kind of stopped a little bit but it was

it was heading hard in one direction for 13 years probably. Yeah. In my estimation. And I think one of the reasons that I'm certainly disaffected is when I was, I don't know how old you, I'm 40. I don't talk about it. I wouldn't. When I was growing up, it was the religious right who all the comedians that I respected, Carl and Higgs, were making fun of.

Yep. And the reason was those were the people who were saying, can't say that, can't do this, can't have this opinion, don't use that word. You know, Hicks's last letterman monologue was censored. It was not published for over a decade, I think, because he made fun of religious people, right? So they were, quote unquote, the bad guys, for comedians, for people who believe that expression is important, for people who believe in their ability to joke and take the piss, as we say, et cetera. And so the reason I'm disaffected is like, then it flipped. And now the people go and you can't say this, you can't do that, are like our team, if you like. I still think it's,

I think it's still think it's, I think it's still think it's, I think it's still the religious right and now the left also. The religious list. I don't even think it's yes, precisely. I have a Hicks observation. You'll meet no bigger Hicks fan than me. Saw him live. Introduced Dave Chappelle to Bill Hicks. Dave said he's never seen me more nervous. It was like 1992 or three. That joke about American gladiators where he says watch these pituary retards. Pituary is not a word. He meant pituitary.

And it's a fucking tragedy that he said that in public. He just was misusing a word publicly, one of the smartest comedies ever. Neither here nor there. It is now, it's the thing where now, you know, the left is advocating, not saying misgendering you can't misgender people that's just one example and the right's still trying to ban books so

it's both sides to me that are both still doing all of the things that are easy to make fun of and they're just banning different books they're both banning different books you know when you say banning books what do you mean because I'm not like the like the on the right

wanting to not in Florida getting rid of all the DEI curriculum and whatever. You can call it banning books or you can call it they don't want that type of stuff published or taught. Well, taught and published a very different things, right? Like banning something for, you know, not reading Mind Kemp to five-year-olds is not banning the book. It's how you decide what the education system teaches people, right? Yeah. So I, that's what I always sort of, I'm not sure that they are banning books exactly, but I know what you mean. You know what I mean, though. There's a desire for restriction and censorship on every side, particularly towards the extremes.

Yes. Yeah. I see what you're saying. But the thing that also that I find frustrating and worrying actually is a much better word is we've kind of, things have kind of settled down. They've kind of, we hit a peak during the Trump years. And now they're starting to settle to settle. People are starting to become less entrenched. people who there's a modicum of common sense being injected into the discourse it's less

insane but then i look over the horizon and i see 2024 and i'm going holy fuck it's going to get bad again heat up your hot takes fellas because we're going to need them uh i think it will be insane i think it will be less insane that it's been because i think people thought that there was going to be some promise land of, of, uh, like, we'll just settle these arguments. And I'll expend a ton of energy on this, on arguing online and all this stuff. And then we'll all figure it out. And we can go back to life as we knew it. And what they realized is the arguments were not settled. And all you can kind of do is like, divest yourself a little bit of the intensity. And like, I just got to go on Twitter less. Or just, just.

coming to like personal decisions of like I I you know people now are saying it when they say I got to an argument on Twitter it's with a sense of shame now or a sense of exhaustion and like I can't fucking believe it I did it again yeah whereas before it was like I got into an argument can I show you and it was it was more proud and righteous and now it's it seems a little bit more exhausted because we're starting I think more and more we're starting to understand Neil that actually social media isn't good for us. Whereas before, because it was so brand new. I'm holding out hope. Oh, I want it.

No, yeah. Of course, it was Brandon. We thought there was some bounty awaiting us if we won that argument. Like, it would be settled and it's just never going to be. It's like all technology. It has, I mean, social media is fucking brilliant. And it's fucking terrible.

Yes. That's what it is. And so, like many things. You know, we interviewed Tom Billy from Impact Theory yesterday. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he said something that really, first of all, he explained why we started the show, but also just gave a frame for how to think about these things. He was saying, I believe we need a creative tension between different sides on many issues, left and right and whatever else it might be. And that's why, you know, talking about the centrist blazer, like, that's what I always thought. The left

has some good ideas. The right has some good ideas. They both have some terrible ideas, particularly at the extremes. How do we kind of synthesize from different sides? But we, have been pushed apart and that center ground where the good stuff happens, that is less and less populated now. Do you, would you agree? The thing that on coming here was thinking about like, not like I'm like, Neil, you need to decide who you are. This is a once and for all.

There are decisions that I think every human being makes or comes to that are in my internal Supreme Court, a five to four decision. There are no unanimous decisions. There are things where I am 53% for, 47% against, but I have to vote in favor of the 53. And I think that's the thing that people won't acknowledge. Yeah. Like that we are living, especially now society is so transparent. Our lives are so transparent.

It was easier before when we just didn't know anything. I'm doing a joke where I'm like, it was better before documentaries because we could say stuff like, yeah, the whale wants to be at SeaWorld. And then you go, then all these documentaries, there's footage of everything,

everyone's trackable, so now we know everyone's hypocrisies, including ourselves. And you guys probably know, first end, the more aware you are, or if you grew up in the church or whatever, in Catholic Church, like I did, like,

the more aware people are of their own hypocrisies, the more they'll cover it up and no, no, no, no, no, no, and shove it down. So, I'm kind of comfortable now just saying, like, I'm a hypocrite, you know, hypocrite in a lot of ways, and

I'm happy to make fun of them. And, you know, even the, if you get down, like, take abortion, for instance, if you get down to the core argument, it's like, when does life begin? That's a pretty fucking big question, huh? So it's like the heartbeat. Okay, how'd you come to that?

Once you start asking follow-ups, so many arguments fall apart. And I think prior to social media and a transparent, basically a transparent society, we were more comfortable just accepting like, yep, I'm approaching. choice or I'm pro-life or whatever, and then you get into the specifics of anything. And it's, it's, you just go, yeah, I'm barely, I'm this, but not by a ton. And that's such a great point, because I think that's one of the problems of our age is the death of nuance. Like, people wanting to pretend very complex, very serious issues are relatively simple. And you're like, come on, man, if it was relatively simple, wouldn't we have solved this? Wouldn't we have gone,

oh, we just need to do this and then move on to the next thing. Yeah. And even and I also as a comedian, I know people with wildly divergent opinions. And always have. And it's, are you funny? Are you nice? Great.

It's like, it's, I've been friends with Joe Rogan for 30 years. And sometimes people on the left would be like, And I'm like, because he's fucking funny and nice. Yeah. And like has helped, like did, was nice to me when I was a doorman at a comedy club had no reason to be other than just like, I like this guy. He likes him, whatever. He was, he did Chappelle's show before it was popular. He's had me on his podcast a dozen times.

Like, I don't, I'm not, I'm less apt to want to sort of dismiss or or throw people away. Because I know that everyone's opinion isn't, maybe he's got a 55, 45, 45 opinion that we disagree. It's not a blowout. It's like, that's where he ended up. And I can accept it as a human being who has his own process to accept that other people ran their process. And that's the decision they came to. And also as well, if you're going to be one of those people who ditches people, which is a lovely way of putting it out. I would like to say I have ditch people.

I don't want to say, like, I've never, I have. And I kind of regret it. Yeah. Why did you, sorry, Francis, I think that's a good follow up. Why did you ditch people and why do you regret it? Because when things are fevered during an election or during a big, you know, a big Supreme Court decision or January 6th or whatever, you start to feel like these are like primal life and death. Existential. Yeah.

Yeah. And and you started to go like, I must. There was also this thing of it felt like, or COVID where we had to, if you believe this, then you believe all these other things that I can't countenance. I cannot accept that in you. And it's just, it's, I, so I would make this, again, not a ton and I can't even think of any specifics, but, but I know I have. so I want to cover myself. And that you feel like it's the noble thing to do. You know, it's the noble for my ethics.

Meanwhile, my ethics are fucking papers then. And why do you regret it? Because it's childish. It's childish. It's just a childish way to approach, you know, nothing. Well, not nothing is that important, but, but it's it's it's a it speaks to a lack of maturity on my part and what it also doesn't acknowledge is how precious friendship is yeah that's a big one i mean that's another big one where it's like

like i said about joe jo's not even a yeah it's like because they're not like it's interesting in this sort of sort of scarlet letter time of like ah you know the thing that that people a value that totally got lost was loyalty yeah the value of like no i like this person they've been kind to me they've helped me i can't now just immediately turn my back because because uh you know whatever what whatever small infraction it is And there's also that thing with the with the me too stuff where it's hard to know how to you you risk if you defend somebody or even defend their right to like a fair hearing, right? Then you're anti the other side. You know, whether you're like, I believe this woman.

Well, are you saying that it's a rush to judgment? about the guy, okay. And if you say, I stand with the guy's right to, then you're, you, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, with, um, with the, he got me too. Yeah, exactly. And I came out and we quashed it. Not guilty. Yes, exactly. I mean, that's not exactly what they say. No, no, no, no, no, no, yeah, no, no, yeah, but, um, but and also as well, to just talking about how precious friendship is, we live in a world now where we're online more and more and more. Friendship, especially in real life, just seems to be receding. And what happened to, yeah, I mean, he could, look, he's a bit of

a dick about this, but he's a great guy. I think computers, meaning I don't think that there's much, who needs friends? It's, it's, I think it was an onion article or somebody where it was, it was people can't have three minute phone conversations but can listen to two hour podcasts that's somehow that's easy you know but like just

getting on them when someone calls you there and you're like what you know whereas you guys release a podcast we all know and we're all waiting just we're hitting refresh but but seriously like there there is less of a in person it's not a product

to people want anymore. Like an in-person relationship is less necessary in the age of I can get my exact order delivered to my exact location and I don't get challenged in any way. I don't get sort of, you don't get any human interaction. But one of the main ones is I don't get challenged. I don't get inconvenienced. I don't have to shower. I don't have to do all the stuff that's a bit of an inconvenience.

I think our brains make it like a huge inconvenience. You just imagine it is way worse than it is. So I think there is a weird thing where it's a lack of, we feel like there's lack of a necessity for friendship. It's interesting you say that because I know that I think podcasts show that the opposite is also true. But two things can be true at once, right? We have a mutual friend. I don't agree.

We have a mutual friend where, like, I disagree with them a lot more than you do, probably. And we have such a great time because that's interesting to me, talking to interesting people who think about things in a complex way, who don't agree with me. And we talk for hours and likewise with lots of other people. And I think the reason people enjoy a podcast is, you know, we have people who watch our show who are, like, Like, we watched that episode, and then I sat down with my husband, and we talked about it for two hours. Yeah. This episode sponsored by Healthy Cell. Healthy Cell is different than typical supplements because it's a gel, not pills.

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And it was just like a good observation. Like women's magazines, like, what are these crazy people thinking, right? There is something to be said for what is the other side thing. It's also fun having a friend that is on the other side, so to speak, and you guys talk shit about your own side with each other. Like, oh, yeah, you're totally right about it. I'm like, what does that person think? So that's enjoyable.

And also, it can be entertaining. It's entertaining. Like, it's just, if somebody's got to, if somebody thinks that Hillary Clinton is a vampire or whatever, and they can show me a good joke about it, I don't think

Hillary Clinton's a vampire. But if you do, I can see why that's funny and therefore I can kind of get in, I think it's funny now. Because I, Part of it is I think your point of view is ridiculous, but this is a good illustration of it. Like I love the Babylon B. I don't agree with them politically, but like, I've done their pocket. Like comedically, those guys, I send those articles as much as any other comedy other than the onion. It's like one in one A in terms of like, it's fucking look at this joke. This is a fucking good job.

There is something really delicious about someone trashed. your side or your belief. So I really enjoy. Like when I was watching blocks as a disaffected liberal, the joke about, you know, you're a conservative, welcome, you go to a group of liberals, we'll see. Yeah, yeah, yes. That's maybe the worst telling of that joke. I know. I was going to say you fucking butcher it. Please, please cut to a clip. I'm begging. I'll clear it with Netflix. I'll call Ted Sarandos myself. A conservative goes to a group of conservatives. They say, welcome. A liberal goes to a group of liberals. They say, we'll see. Yes. And yes. And I've, I also butchered it because I fuck. We'll insert the clip.

Let's just insert the clip. Now I'm afraid I'm not even going to tell it because I'm afraid I'll fuck it up. Like it's going to be contagiously. You're getting a, you started this. Yeah, I know. Neil's comedy is brilliant. It's much better than we. It's much better than slightly better. The problem being liberal is there's no amount of liberal that's ever liberal enough. Like if there's a bunch of Republicans standing around and someone comes up and goes, hey, I'm Republican. They go like, come on in. There's a bunch of liberals standing around. A liberal comes up and goes, hey, I'm liberal. They're like, we'll see. Yeah, there is no, I understand Gavin Newsom joke. Like, I get what, if I was not liberal, I would understand how loads some people find Gavin Newsom or Nancy Pelosi or

or who was the corpse the corpse who finally no that's the other corpse the yeah I've been doing a joke that we're either going to get where they're going to be led by Trump from jail or Biden from hospice and that's just where we are as a country

yeah like I like admitting that Biden's fucking wildly old you know what I mean like admitting that Barbara Bob is that no it wasn't who was the lady who just died like a month ago. Oh, fine. It's not yet. She wouldn't give it up. So, so admitting like, and not pretending it's in any way, uh, cool, I think you just go, yeah, Biden's a corpse, but I'm going to vote for

him. Because I, I don't care what the president looks like or even how he walks. I need the votes. That's my point of view on it. I don't see it as like a leadership position as like, the optics. I just don't. That just doesn't. That just doesn't. speak to me. And what is that saying, you know, about American society? Because you look at America, you go, you've got all these great thinkers, you've got some of the best colleges in the world, you've got all these amazing people here. And you go, that's the best you can give me? Yeah, it's funny because I think of like a young, someone under 55 couldn't win because they have too much shit in public. you know what I mean

like it's gonna have to take that generation like people over 60 to die and then it'll be a bunch of candidates with with dick pics and controversial old tweets and it'll just have to be like a mutually sure destruction thing

where it was kind of like when everyone knew Bush did Coke but there was even with the media they were kind of like what I think it's going to get to that point, I hope. Or I don't even if I hope. I don't know if it's better.

I'd say that's where we're going. But we just got to run out of old people first. Kind of, yeah. Or like people that believe in that, those sort of. Or even Obama said he did. Like, so it just became this thing of like what's permissible for a candidate. And what does this whole environment do for comedy? Is this like a really good time?

Do you feel? I think it's a good time. I don't look, all, even. all my friends who have gotten canceled are doing arenas. So, so I'm not, I wouldn't cry for Chappelle or Rogan or Tom or any of these like, any of these guys are, all these guys are doing incredibly well. And the tension is fun. Yeah. To me, to me, it's fun. It's fun. It's like the, there's more lasers and you kind of have to, you know, get around them in a clever way, you know, than just kind of, or not.

Or you can just say whatever you want and deal with the deal. The backlash seems to be, I think the backlashers realize like this is useless. And they're creating popularity for the people. They're making stars. I suppose the one question I was thinking about is, That's definitely true for you. And if someone wants to try and cancel us, it will be true for us. Is that true for a new comic who's sort of making their way up?

I mean, I think Shane Gillis is a good example of somebody who used his cancellation as a jujitsu. And it's a springboard. Like, oh, you never heard of me? And I'm another guy who did Chinese. offensive Chinese accent that that every single human being alive has done and then Chinese people have done a different accent Chinese people have done Indian

and then everyone has their accent that they secretly do so so I don't I see it as like I don't worry about the young the next generation because I don't think that there's much of a there I don't think it worked I just don't think it was like a I don't, I think it, I don't know if it totally backfired, but it's just, you're just creating,

you just was a form of, like, you know, star search or something. Well, this is what I say, you know, in terms of cancel culture, what the way to defeat it is to go, oh, you try to cancel somebody, well, they're bigger now, you know. And then eventually, I mean, these people are quite slow, but eventually they'll work out. This isn't what you do. Yeah, I think, well, it hasn't happened. and it hasn't happened since Dave Chappelle with the Tran stuff. So I think, and they kind of, I don't know if anyone would consider that a success. No, I don't think that was, no. Dave probably does.

Right. You go for it. Yeah, I was going to say actually, so could you make the Chappelle show now on TV? By the way, Chappelle Show is your used to be a teacher. Yeah. You're used to be a teacher. You really do watch Trigonometry. It's going to come up. Do you know he's from Venezuela? I don't know what the fuck that has to do with that. He says every other episode. Oh, is that the other one?

Yeah, I got it. I only have two tall. He's not as big a fan as we thought. No, I know. I'm fucked. You caught me. That's our got you. We'll be right back.

I don't know. It's one of those things where... I don't want to say like we couldn't do it today. I think it would be a bigger pain in the ass. Because for all of the, as much as I say like cancel culture doesn't work, I would say it's taxing on a person's spirit, whether you're Dave or Joe or, you know, Shane Ellis or whatever, you get through it, but it is like,

Like, fuck, I think it's a bit of like a, and that would have been, there was not much of a, the only barometer for like, should we do this was personal. It wasn't, we, there was no worry about so-and-so is going to come down. And it was more just like, yeah, say you want to, is that a thing that's worth, is that an idea that's worth promoting? Yeah. You know. You know, there are some comics who say, actually, they like those lasers now being in place. I agree. That's what I mean. I would say I'm one of those comics because it's certainly like, you know, separates. I was going to say amen from the boys. It feels like you can't say that anymore. And I don't even know why. I don't know why you can't say this anymore, but I don't think you can. I just, it feels bad. Yeah, it's because we're sitting in an eye. Yeah, there you go. That's why. That's why. Do you ever feel like there's, I know you get the sense of lasers, and that was so beautiful about blocks, is that it felt like a comedian who's at the top of their game,

tap dancing around the lasers. But do you ever, because we've spoken to people about this, in liberal comics as well, who say that it kind of influences their writing somewhat. Like they find themselves self-censoring as opposed to a more overt, like you can't say that from person over there. Yeah, that's what I mean. It ends up being you, even the cancel culture. It does, the specter of it exists.

I don't, it's not a ton of stuff that I'm like dying to say. There are some words that are not very acceptable anymore that I'm going to be honest with you. I miss. It wasn't. Yeah, we all miss it. It's a great word. It's a great word.

Rogan has a great bit about this. like people have lost, and this is something I wanted to talk to you about, which is people have lost their ability. Retards. Retards have lost their ability to understand context. And his point is, when you've got somebody saying that to a five-year-old mentally handicapped kid, that's fucking unacceptable. But if you're saying it about a guy in his 40s who thinks the earth is flat, it's perfect. Yeah, I would agree with that. So, and that's part of it, that's why I missed it. That's why I miss it. It's just an effective

tool. Yeah. You know? And it's so you just go you're, oh, look at this neurodivergent motherfucker. You just have to, like, it's, Doug Stanoe used to do a bit about where it just moves on. Yeah. Because at one point retard was the

clean word. It was like the substitute word and they just pie, they just evolve. And so I don't, I miss it. But again, It's like, all right, I'll get another tool. I'll say neurodivergent motherfucker and everyone will hear retard. Do you think the lasers make you better, make you more skilled now?

You're having to kind of bob and weave a little bit more. I don't know. Maybe. It's, I will say tension helps comedy. So let's say it does make it more, it makes it, there's more tension so if you can hit it right. that was the great thing the jokes and blacks that I like doing was like most of my crowd is liberal so like making fun of abortion and guns and and the purity test and all that stuff was and hearing them laugh was it was like okay so you're I'm not alone in in recognizing this so I think the tension

is useful overall in common and it also brings I have a theory that a few people have but but there were these pillars of of um of of of of wisdom or pillars of just what kind of moral or societal pillars government the good cause no we could fucking big government but they but again i'm talking about a hundred years ago or six years there's government um clergy and And you get to even throw like business in there. Yep. And then they all got exposed through various means and fell. And then it became like, you know, it's pretty wise is that George Carlin or that John Stewart or that or Dave or even like Michael Moore at a point or Chris Rock or guys that are and women that were Wanda and Sarah and like people that were.

that are smart. And so then comedians become the kind of pillars of, they're de facto because everybody else fell. So, but, and our job is just to be funny. And like, I don't think Carlin was trying to be wise. He just kind of was. But, but we became the sort of de facto, weirdly kind of pillars of wisdom.

and morality. And I don't think I'm wrong. It's absurd, but I don't, it's absurd, but I think it's also maybe true. Yeah. And that's, that's kind of worrying as well. That is worrying because, look, I love comedy, biggest comedy fan. I'm a comedian. I don't know if I want a comedian to have that role in society.

Yeah, it's like, I was Greg Fitzsimmons, a buddy mind comedian. And he's, he's started with Joe. And so we just talk about like when the White House is getting mad at Joe or CNN's talking about Joe, Fitzsimmons helped Joe steal his car stereo back from his ex-girlfriend. Like just we all have these stories of like Dave Chappelle's a moral leader and I'm like, I've got stories. But they're all personal story. It's just this weird thing of like them? Okay. It speaks to the same thing about like what does it say about American politics?

that that I'm willing to vote for a corpse. But it's it I'm now having to that I don't think Joe and Dave are immoral or No, but I don't think they're human there. Yeah, they're human and I think there is like a There's a learning curve where I remember when when John Stewart was being held up as Like a lot of people were getting the news from him and he was like I'm on after fucking robots fighting each other Like I don't want to be and like puppets making crimes phone calls. I don't want to be the arbiter of information and morality, but nobody else is stepping up, you know. And I would argue that perhaps in some ways you could argue it's gone too far.

So like Trevor Noah, for example. Yeah. He does like lectures, right? He, he just- What do you mean in like in the world or in on the show? On the show. Yes. He will do a whole segment about a very contentious issue that people will see from different size, depending on what they are. There's not much humor in it quite often. and it's kind of like him giving, it's like a political sort of speech. And I don't necessarily blame him for that. I think there's a demand for that.

Yeah. That's kind of, that's what you're saying. We've kind of got to a position where comedians were like thrust into this space. Yeah, it's funny when there's a tragedy shooting 9-11. I think people remember Letterman's 9-11, post-9-11 monologue, and John.

post 9-11 monologue more than Bush you know more it's like why am I looking to Seth Myers and Trevor for leadership again these are guys that I know very and I'm like I don't have like again I've got stories I don't mean that with David Joey it's just like they're very human and they didn't move to New York or L.A. to like I'm going to do some moral leadership right ma pack my bet you know it's like it's just a weird you know abdication on the part of all these other institutions and look i understand these people are your friends and whatever so this isn't me trying to get no i don't think you are no i'm not but i've got another question which is um a lot of people particularly there's a lot of people in the center center right who would look at

Trevor Nung, oh, he's not funny. I'm like, I used to watch his stand-up. He's fucking amazing. Trevor's fucking amazing. Again, like, Trevor's really funny. However, if I mainly watch the moral lectures that I see retweeted on Twitter, I would think he's not funny. Sure.

And what I wanted to ask you is, and, you know, feel free to answer any way you want. I'm not trying to lead you anywhere. I'm just curious. As an outside observer, watching these late night shows, it feels to me, disagree if you want, that they've lost. teeth and they've lost humor. They're not as funny and they're not as biting

and they're not as interesting to me. Am I wrong? I know what you mean about there. You kind of know what they're going to the area that they're going to talk about what they're going to say. It's fairly prescribed. I think it's a

market decision in that it's the type of people who come to the taping you have to do well if I'm if I'm I would do the daily show sometimes I wouldn't do that well because they weren't really my people so to speak they

so you've got the type of people who wanted to come to Seth say any literally any Bill Mars tapings like they they come to hear a certain type of thing, right? Well, here's, sorry to interrupt, I want to hear the rest, but here's where I might disagree

with what you're about to say, which is I think Bill, what he's done is he's actually shown leadership. What's funny about Bill is he would bomb sometimes, and I saw it as a good thing, meaning like, that means you're doing something right. She changed his audience over time. That's what he did. Because he was like, I have principles. I don't like what's happening with COVID eventually.

I don't like this woke shit. Yeah. I'm going to take the audience with me. Yeah. And I'm going to lose some on the way. Yeah. Right. But you're saying in these other shows that that is more difficult.

Well, I was going to say Bill would complain if he would get ooze sometimes. So it's like, I always thought it as good that he was getting ooze. I always thought like, dude, that's good that you're not. But that's the thing like as comedians you want to kill, right? Yeah, sure. Yeah, of course. Some of us can't, though. It's always their fault now.

So it becomes this thing of how am I going to do well on tape, right? So then you're almost working backward from like, I tried this point of view yesterday. It got like nothing, right? So then even or if you do a rehearsal doesn't go well, then you're like, I can't, I don't want to say this because I'm just going to eat shit. Right. So you've got to feed that. And then you just get in this feedback loop of you say that. it goes viral, feels good,

and then you just get into that thing. Now, having said that, knowing all these people, none of them are changing their point of view to get likes or get virality. Like, I can tell you, I've known Seth from before he hosted Update. I've known Trevor from before he hosted The Daily Show.

Like, they're not, they, Trevor's very naturally reconciliatory. Like it's just his natural. I always did a joke with him. He's like half black, half white, half man, half fish. Like he's just half, like he is walking reconciliation. So I can understand why that it's frustrating or sort of, eh, kind of makes you roll your eyes a little bit. But I know where they're coming from.

It's like Seth, I wrote for Seth on the correspondence dinner. It wasn't, we made fun of, I don't, the tone hasn't. changed very much, you know. He was, we were one of, again, one of the early making fun of Trump's, but, um, so I don't, I don't think the tone, I don't think anyone's gotten the job and changed their tone very much. It's interesting, yeah. And because you do see all of these guys. And again, as someone who is a disaffected liberal, I go, I would just like someone on the right as well to be on a show and have a little bit more teeth as well. And I'd like someone on the left to be like, you know what, you are nuts

and talking about their own side. It would just be so refreshing. And actually, it would also make the shows more popular and it would give them more relevancy because I think that's what's happening now. The more popular thing, I can't speak to.

I truly have no idea. I think what makes these shows popular is of charisma and then celebrities. But I think Marr does it really well. and I watch Marr as religiously as any of these other shows. And then

Greg Gutfeld has the Fox show that's apparently very popular and more popular than Colbert and all these other shows. So, yeah, I don't know what they none of them are lying. And that's how I feel about Joe. Whenever someone talks about Rogan, I'm like,

he is not doing this for attention. He's not, he literally is like oh, it's, I'm curious, or he really is just a guy talking, a guy experiencing the world, and broadcasting it. And as someone who used to do it in his garage, it's the same thing. You guys said it last week, it's the same thing. There's just more security. He's a lot more. I completely agree with you.

You know, we did a three and a half hour conversation this time with Joe. and then we went to see him at the club later that night, hang out in the green room. I mean, what he's talking about on stage is exactly the same stuff he was talking with us in the green room and it's exactly the same thing that we talked about on the show. It's very authentic.

But people try to read a lot into it. And I certainly wasn't saying that I think people are pretending to have opinions that they don't have. It just feels to me, maybe it's the disaffected, maybe I've got older and become less liberal. I don't know. but it just kind of feels a little bit lacking teeth for me.

I agree. They also have the, the, the, um, the advertiser thing. And again, none of them, I've never seen or spoken any of them about, I need to worry about Procter & Gamble. But there is, they are kind of there to get a rating. That's, that's, they have to get, or they will lose the job. Um, so, so I, now, But having said that, I don't think any of them are steering the wheel toward liberal hegemony.

We'll be back with our guests in a minute. But first, do you remember the Canadian trucker protest in 2022, where thousands of Canadians came out to protest COVID restrictions and vaccine mandates? Now, these protests lasted for weeks, and the people out on the streets needed funds as any grassroots. protests would. So people set up online crowdfunding campaigns which raise millions of dollars. Incredible. But once the Canadian authorities had started to criticize the crowdfunding platforms, ramping up pressure to close the campaigns, it didn't take long for the biggest crowdfunding platform, the one we've all heard of, to completely capitulate and shut the campaigns

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Starting a campaign on Givesendgo is easy and in tune. Go to give send go.com today. That's give sendgo.com to start raising money for whatever is important to you. And now back to the interview. And are you excited creative? Yeah, you don't look at it. I've never seen you look excited. Are you excited creatively? Because it is a good time for people like you who to play with the tension that comedians always play with. what are you looking to create? Obviously, stand-up specials. What things are you thinking about?

The only thing I'm looking to create is just more material. My only my only prayer creatively is a rich harvest. I just want ideas and I want jokes. But having done, worked on Chappelle Show for three years, it's so hard that I don't. And I help Trevor out on the Daily Show every once in a while. And it's just, I don't like the lifestyle. It's like very much like an office job.

So, um, whereas this is a house job. Um, yeah, like I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I also think that stand up is the coolest thing a person can do. I just do like I, I, and that's having done a great TV show. I still, the, Chabelle Chabelle's, good because it was so stand-upy to me but the idea of having to go to an office 40 weeks a year and like backpack and the um the job of going and talking is so cool and having no editor other than yourself and the audience is such a um it's a guys I'd say this, it's a blessing.

Hashtag bless. No, it is. It's just an incredibly cool job. It's, I think the thing which stand-up gives you, and you see with a lot of these guys, it's a freedom. You're not answerable to anyone. You just go out there, you've got your audience, you do your material that you believe in, that you've worked on, and that you will present. And then it will rise or it will fall on its own merits. Yeah.

And it's, if it's good, it lasts. a long time. There are Bill Burr said to Seinfeld on comedians and cars who was like, you've ruined so many things for me. Meaning if like Jerry, for instance, or Burr is another good example, or Patrice O'Neill are guys that like once you hear something a certain way, it changes your perception of that thing forever, you know? Like Patrice O'Neill has a bunch of sexual harassment jokes that are like definitive

and it changed my mind for, I mean, or it certainly locked my mind in, or Burr has a bunch of those, or like, or Dave or Chris, or just, there are people that have, can be, can make definitive things. I just like it better myself. I watch pretty much every stand-up special and I watch no sitcoms. And I just never really have. I just don't enjoy them that much. I like sketch shows. I like late night and stand-up. Why don't you, why don't you like sitcoms? You find it contrived? I just find it, and I said this to Jerry on comedians and cars, like, it just, they just seem to be like, every time I turned on, they were worried about a jacket. Like, where's the jacket?

It was always just like, what, they're worried about them. We got to go over here. It just, it doesn't appeal to me. Yeah. You know, I don't know. It just doesn't, like, that genre doesn't work very well. Have you seen peep show? No.

Watch peep show. I'm guessing you have. Yes. No, Settemeyer's told me about Peep Show for 20. He's been telling me for 20 years about Peep Show. Genuine. I've heard. No, I believe it. British sitcoms are good. Yes. Whenever I see clips, I'm like, that's fucking funny. Yeah.

But I don't like the, I like bite-sized things. Yeah. Okay, which is absolutely fair enough. So who are the comedians for you that influence you, Neil, that you looked at and when you were coming up, you were like, oh my God. I would, if I could be half as good as them. Hicks, obviously, as mentioned. Dave Attell, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock. Brian Regan doesn't get enough credit. He's an amazing American comedian.

And then Burr, Patrice, I'd say currently, like, Malaney, I think is excellent. Wanda, I think Sarah. Sarah Silverman's like been under, I like, because I kind of grew, I met her when I was 15 or something. So I never really, and then a couple of years ago, I was like, she's fucking really good. And then like Rodney, kind of like the one line of like Rodney, Joan Rivers, that's sort of like, did you guys see the Joan Rivers documentary? No. There's a documentary about her where you watch it and you go, oh, I will never say a bet.

Like has index card like libraries full of jokes? that she's collected and written for 50 years. Like, people that work hard are, like, that's a different category, but it's still, it's a big, it means, you know, it's like, it's a hard job. Like, you have to, you have to really grind at it. So, and I'm sure I'm forgetting 15 people. Of course, you are.

You always are when you talk about the credits. Hey, watch your tone. And what was six like, by the way, to work with them to be? I just met him once. So he was just kind of like after a show. The interesting thing about it is I, it was at a club in New York and he was there for the weekend Thursday through Sunday. And I went to the Sunday show and it was like two thirds empty. And this is six months before he dies.

So this thing, he was big in the UK, but he was still like largely unknown in the States. Yeah, you can't be a profit in your own homeland as they say. Correct, as they say. As they say. Yeah. The new. It's been a pleasure. Great.

This is totally painless. Well, you know what? Before we go to locals. Inflict some pain. Yeah. Why do you watch Trigonometry? Or listen to it. Do you watch or listen?

It's hard to watch. I, because I like the, I like heterodox ideology. I like. hearing the opposite argument for a thing that I've just eaten up like I enjoyed like Douglas Murray books. I like seeing somebody. I like watching McWhorter bomb. It's fun. It's meaning I respect it. He McWhorter's not, but I mean generally Douglas Murray and John the water or go to the go to place where they don't bomb but but they're they're not doing themselves any favors um by they're not uh towing the company line and it feels more honest like a podcast like

this it is truly like you're willing to um discuss things that it's the you know someone's like that's controversial topic life's controversial The whole thing is controversial. So the fact that I'm supposed to pick aside and never question it or talk about it is insulting. So I enjoy hearing even opposite points of view. I just like that you guys are willing to talk about it

and have people talk about stuff and not. And you are disaffected liberals. Like you are It's one of you more than the other That's we established But but like I can relate to that point And I don't mind

It's the I don't know who it is Aristotle or somebody like That it's the side of a advanced mind That you can entertain two ideas at once I'm butchering it like you guys But at least he's dead So he doesn't have to be here to watch it

there. But, but... I mean, we did butcher that so much. The thing is, I thought I was

going to help out, but I actually realized as I was saying that I... You made the same mistake. My mistake was slightly smaller. Yes. But the fact that I also

made a mistake made it much worse. That's basically the show as well. Is I fuck it up? He tries to help. And then it's just as bad. In a different way. Yeah.

So, so I like, I basically feel like you said like, do you think we're pretty? Why? Why do you watch our podcast? Because I like hearing opposite points of view. And it feels like a way of thumbing my nose up at more entrenched liberals. You know, I didn't ask you that question, although it's going to make a fucking great clip to promote your ergonomically, right? Obviously. But I ask you that question because I think you are exactly the sort of person that we're trying to reach when we do what we do, which is somebody

who understands that the world is complex. And it's not just about reaching people like you because you're there without us, really. But there are lots of people who maybe they just, their feed, whatever is they're being fed, isn't feeding them a nuanced conversation. It's feeding them, you know, bumper stickers, right? And all we're trying to do is take the bumper sticker and get some interesting people and go, why don't we just zoom, zoom out a little bit and go, what else, what else is there? Why, why is this thing controversial? Why are people disagreeing about us? Because by definition, controversial issues are issues on which many people have a different opinion. And that's because people's psychology is different. Their genetics are different. Their

life experiences are different. All sorts of things. Their cultures are different. And that's why they need to be talked about in a sensible way. So it, you know, genuinely gratifying to me to hear. you answer that. Yeah, and I don't, it's funny, me and Jimmy Carr would send each other maybe like a Douglas Murray clip or like a Jordan Peterson clip. Again, Jordan Peterson, I'm still trying to find the controversy. I'm like, what? I still don't understand the problem. Look at his Twitter. Well, yeah, I've heard he's got, but, but, but, but, um, no, I agree. You know what I mean? He's making, he's making very good and very important points. And, um, and like, yet how dare he tell boys to make their bed um the uh the but like we would send each other

clips and it felt like we were sending each other like red fox records or something or like dirty filthy blue comedy it's like uh it's like blue ideology and it's just a little bit heterodoxy like i don't know maybe also this it's also i've also accepted a long time ago that like if this many people are conservative, there must be something to it. Like, again, I can see where, I can't just go, they're all out of their minds. I'm assuming that it comes from a genuine place. I love those studies where they'll show like, there are more psychological studies where like conservative people are more averse to watching people vomit.

Have you seen those things where it's like these weird psychological links between conservatives and liberals and like, I do think it's that deep. I really do. Oh, it is. Yeah, it is. And it's, you can't even, I think they'll be able to tell, like, in utero who's going to be conservative. I mean, you're, it's one of the interesting things about this idea that your political

opinions determine whether you are a moral person or not, right? I mean, obviously at the extremes, that is true to some extent. But it's like 50% of your political views are predetermined by your genetics. Yeah. So going, oh, you think like this, that's because you've chosen to be about, no. Yeah. Also, like, you're not, we're not choosing almost any of this stuff.

No. Yeah. It's like, you know, as what's, Sam Harris doesn't believe, like, we don't make any decisions. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have some issues. I do, do. But I'm just saying, it's like, okay, I get, I see how you came to that.

Yeah. No, but you're right. I mean, conservatives, they crave order. They have a much lower disgust threshold. the disgust thing drives them a lot more. It's why they find certain things. They can be much more hardline about things because of that because it's like that.

And liberals, they crave, you know, openness and compassion. And much of what we're seeing, I feel, is like compassion, but there's been weaponized and it's just gone out of control. And it's also, I would see it as like compassion without limits. And it's like, you know, there's got to be some, we need a, whenever people bring up immigration, I go, how many people should we let it? What's your number?

And they never, no one ever asked that. You just go, no, no, what's the right amount? What to you is the right amount? And there's dishonesty on both sides where it's like, we can't have any. And it's like, well, then the fucking economy's going to dry up if we don't have any. Or we have as many, all you can eat. Which are, they're both, they're both bad policies. Yeah.

So, but I don't, I will say there's not, I don't think there's very much. many of me, so don't get your hopes up in terms of people that are, I'm a pain in the ass. Like, I've been a pain in the ass. That's why we like it. Right. No, but I'm saying that makes me a good comedian, but I don't think there's a lot of people that are, um, uh, like when you guys, you're hoping to get people like me. I don't know that there are many. Again, I could be wrong, but I, I think that there are more people that are hopefully, and maybe there will be, maybe there won't be, but more people willing to question things.

They're like, what is the, why, what is, like, let me watch some Jordan Peterson and see if there's an issue here. And then you watch them and go, I don't see an issue, whatever. So, but I don't think most people are willing to, and they don't have the time because I don't have a wife or kid, so I got fucking endless time.

But, you know, it's people have, People are busy and they are more willing to just go, what opinion am I supposed to have? Fine. I'll just put that name tag on and not question it because I don't have, my wife's going to yell at me if I watch so many videos. I mean, it's very true. Neil, what a pleasure. Final question, as always, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? Bedbugs.

I'm kidding. I would say it's the I would say it's the the decision-making process that we all are going through which is like these are we can have split decisions or have mild majorities. I have mild majorities about pretty much everything and I wish people would stop pretending that it's a everything is a 100% held belief. I just think it's dishonest. You're going to have to leave L.A. in order to get that. Oh, well, then I'm going to have to live with it because I love, I love this city.

No, yeah, I'm with you. But, but I think there's, it doesn't require a ton of bravery. It's just a matter of like, eh, or just assume it about most people instead of, It also makes arguing with people more humane. And you don't, you don't sort of brand them immediately as like a zealot. Like, I'm not a zealot about too much. I can be persuaded to believe anything. I kind of believe that, though.

Like, I'm not, I'm not, I think assuming zealotry from other people is, and I I you hate to bring up Israel but it's a good example of like whoever the last person to talk to me is I believe I'm on their side You know what I mean? It was like okay I then I yes it was an Occupate no that was wrong and like just going back and forth and and not knowing I don't I have no I don't know For most issues I the more you investigated

The more can the more confused the less convinced you are. Yeah. Finally, you've gotten my material. Yeah, the more you investigating, the more you investigate something, the more confused you become. Yeah, there's a great Paul Weller lyric,

which goes a more I know, the less I understand. We kind of nailed it on that. Neil, you know what? I always say this because it's my job, but I really do mean it. It's been an absolute pleasure of a conversation. I look forward to hearing what our fans want to ask of you on locals,

which is where we're going to go next. So head on over there and we'll continue the conversation. How do you write?