TRIGGERnometry - Neil Oliver: "Scotland is a Country Split Down the Middle"

Episode Date: April 14, 2021

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And a fascinating guest we have for you today. He's returning to the show for the second. time. Scottish historian TV presenter, Neil Oliver, welcome back to Trigonometry. Oh, thank you very much for having me, gents. It's good to see you both. It's good to see you and to have you back. Listen, since we last spoke, we talked mainly about history and the pandemic and things like that. But there's been a lot going on in your country, in Scotland. I lived there for many years, and I have no idea what's going on. And we were just looking at it going, we need someone to explain it to us. And here you are. Oh, my goodness. Well, in the beginning, the earth cooled.

And part of it for me, I would say right from the top, you know, you say my country of Scotland and of course I was born and I live in Scotland, but the whole thing for me is underwritten by the fact that my country is Britain. That is, and that's not a, or it never used to be a political statement. I was born, well, 54 years ago. and just quietly without any particular reason by osmosis or whatever absorbed an understanding that I was British born in Britain and it's very important to me that that situation prevails. Apart from anything else, I'm often characterised as being anti-Skottish independence.

In truth, I'm not actually anti-any anything. First and foremost, I am just for the United Kingdom of Britain because that's where I was born and that nationality is part of my identity. And I simply refuse to have any group of politicians here today, gone tomorrow, strip me of what I understand to be my nationality and replace it with another without my consent. And so, yes, there's a great deal. happening up here on account of the Scottish government in the Scottish Parliament at Holyrood. And I am confused and dismayed by a lot of it. But my stance is and always has been that I am for

Britain. That's being British is what I understand about myself. Tusha, Neil. What we like to do here at Trigonometry, start the interview by asking a slightly insensitive question to get the guests nice and warmed up. And so we've managed to do that. But it seems like you guys is having some sort of like live action Macbeth reenactment in Scotland. So can you tell us more about what's happening there? I suspect you're probably referring to the what is generally known as the Alex Salmond inquiry, which has, yes, it's been a Shakespearean drama played out across what feels like years and it has

well you know it has it has run its course in terms of the salmon inquiry has run its course but having said that it remains it remains unclear exactly what it decided the the inquiry's own committee seemed to decide that the first minister had misled parliament but then there's another

judgment came in from an independent another independent inquiry that said differently so exactly what has been decided at the end of the months years of wranglings around what Alex Salmon was first of all alleged to have done

then his name was cleared in court and then this whole inquiry into the way in which he was investigated by government has run on and on and on It has taken on layers of Byzantine complexity. I think anyone outside of Scotland would struggle, would struggle to have followed the twists and turns of it. You know, you'd really have to be an obsessive.

You'd really have to be invested in the whole umbrella to keep up with it. And I don't claim to have followed every twist and turn. What I take away from it, though, is the extent, to which this Scottish government has chosen secrecy over openness. There has just been, from the beginning, there were efforts made and a concerted attempt to keep as much as possible under wraps. And this from a government that had said all along or said in the past that it was always going to be open, always going to be open with the people of Scotland.

There had nothing to hide, that everything would be there to be looked at and discussed. The First Minister said exactly that, that she intended to cooperate with the inquiry completely and fully, and that nothing would be off limits. And yet it has just been a culture of secrecy and obfuscation and, you know, hiding behind legalities, legal minutiae. And there has just been this constant attempt to keep as much information it would appear as possible away from the general public, certainly from the Scottish public. That's what I have taken away from it. And that is what dismayes me that we live, that we're living with a government that is so secretive about how it goes about its business.

And Neil, do you think that this has irreparably damaged Sturgeon's premiership? Oh, gosh. No. I think the, I think she is in what she continues to be, I would say, in a fairly unassailable position. The Scottish National Party is so strong, has taken such control over so much in Scotland. The Crown Office, which is the Scottish equivalent of the CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service, you know, has been working in concert with the Scottish Government. Therefore, you cannot say with any confidence, in fact you can't say at all that there's separation of powers in Scotland. You know, one of the principles of Western Liberal democracy, and governments thereof is that the legislative and the executor and the judiciary are separate

from one another. That's not the case in Scotland. There's no second chamber in the Scottish Parliament, no House of Lords or its equivalent. And the doings, the business of government is supposed to be scrutinised by committees. And it was said long ago when the devolution settlement was put in place that the committees would have all the teeth they needed properly and effectively to hold the government's account, but the Salmon inquiry has absolutely laid bare the fact that the Scottish Parliament cannot hold the Scottish government to account as far as it would appear,

the Scotland Act and the devolution settlement, which was the product of the Scotland Act, is not fit for purpose. And it's, I find it harrowing. I feel that we live in something that's nudging towards a failed state. a banana republic where bananas don't grow. We'll wait for global warming now, then we'll see bananas in Scotland. But Neil, you make it sound as if Scotland is in some kind of political crisis,

which from the outside, no one would have, you know, it seems that, you know, Sturgeon has had a very good war in terms of the, you know, the coronavirus. Is it really that bad up there? Well, it depends what side of the line you're standing on. I'm sure those who support the Scottish government and those who support the Scottish National Party will be, you know, will be very happy with what has happened. But Scotland is absolutely a country that's split down the middle. 14 years of the Scottish National Party has seen to that.

Scotland is a divided place. The Scotland that I grew up in, well, it's unrecognisable now. the atmosphere is one of bitterness, constant anger, division, clannishness, feelings of being on, you know, of two, fundamentally two tribes, you know, being on the barricades, hurling whatever ammunition they can at one another. And there's a feeling that that situation just becomes ever more, ever more entrenched. You know, you say that Scotland had a good, or the Scottish government had a good COVID. Well, they didn't. The deaths such as they're being tallied are obviously everything's on a smaller scale. In Scotland, we've only got five million of a population compared to, you know, 60 odd million in England or in the rest of the UK. So the numbers are always smaller. But examined proportionally, our death tolls have been the same. The situation in the care homes was desperate. More people died proportionally in the care homes in Scotland than did so in the rest of the UK. And when I last looked at the figures, and I don't look at them on a daily basis, but we seemed to be, you know, one of the worst places in the UK or the worst place in the UK in terms of COVID infections or cases or however they're counting and categorising it today

or this morning. And so we haven't had a good COVID. We've had the same COVID as everybody else in the UK. We've, because of devolution, the first minister here, Nicola Sturgeon has been able to plough her own furrow up to a point or to an extent. And so, There have been different dates about when we would open this or close that. And, you know, if you were allowed six people, we might be allowed eight. Or, you know, there's been variations almost just for the sake of variation. But as a place to be, as a place to live now in 2021, Scotland is a sad and angry and frightened place with, you know, with lots of people full of dismay and apprehension about what the future must hold. That broadcast was brought to you by the Scottish Tourist Information Board there.

Well done. But it's obviously a difficult time. And you feel very strongly about the independence issue. And I actually wanted to ask you, is there anything beyond independence itself that underpins that divide? Is there a religious or ethnic or sort of political? Like, what is the divide about? Or is it purely about do you want Scotland to be independent? dependent of the United Kingdom. That is the, that's the fracture. That's the fault line, I suppose,

along which the country has most obviously split. You know, Scotland, like anywhere, I mean, it's not unique to Scotland, but it's a place of many tribes, if you like. You know, it's difficult to talk of one Scotland. Historically, it was a place of clans, a place of tribes going back further beyond before the time of the clans and as you travel through what is a relatively small place there's a great variety in the population of Scotland. The north is very different from the south

the east is very different from the west yes there has of course courtesy of sectarianism between Catholic and Protestant there's always been a religious element to certain unhappinesses in Scotland but you know the people of of Orkney and Shetland, for example, have always walked a different road than the rest of Scotland.

The people of the borders are very different from the people in the north-east or in the north-west. The islands out to the west, the Western Isles, it's a different culture, a different group out there. There's always been a kind of a Gallic dominance out in the Western Isles or into the West. There's always been pockets of Gallic culture. So Scotland is an enormously varied place, which makes it very difficult when you start talking about one Scotland. At the last referendum in 2014, the result was 45, 55, 55% of those voting favouring, remaining in the United Kingdom. But it's definitely worth pointing out that of 32 local authorities in Scotland, 28 opted for remaining parties. of the United Kingdom.

And only four, only four local authorities out of 32 had a majority in favour of leaving the Union. And that's very significant. You know, the heartland of the independence vote has always been Glasgow, Eastumbarton, Dundee. You know, that's always been where the hardcore of independence has been down in the south-west of Scotland, over on the borders, the north-east, the north-west.

Not so. So it's a very, it's a, but that's, those kind of, those kind of local divisions, differences in local communities, they're always there. They're in every country. It's the same in England. Same in Wales. Same in Ireland. There's great differences. But the fundamental fracture across which that has broken Scotland's back is the issue of independence.

And there's a terrible sense of hopelessness about it, really. but I believe that that that split is, as and always was, roughly 50-50, depending on what day of the week or what year you wanted to take a referendum, or take a straw poll, it would drift slightly either way, but it's more or less half and half, half the country in favour of one, half the country in the favour of the other, which means that whatever happens, if there was a referendum tomorrow that came down slightly in favour of independence,

you've still got half the country unhappy. And that's very difficult for, that's a very difficult foundation upon which to build anything cohesive. I've always said it's a bit like if you're trying to fly a light aircraft, you know, a wee Cessna or something and you've got a dead elephant strapped to one wing. It's going to be really difficult to fly the thing because it's so unbalanced. And so if there is a subsequent referendum or if there are more referenda in the years ahead, I think it will always. was split roughly 50-50. So it's always going to be a Pyrrhic victory for whoever carries the day. And I said right back in, well, before the 2014 referendum, it's probably a question better left unasked because the answer's just going to make everyone unhappy. And so it has done.

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deliver lasting comfort and support. Go to avocado green mattress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Neil, as an Englishman, I don't understand what you're talking about with referendums making people unhappy or splitting the country. We've got, I've got no idea what you're talking about.

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Your where was. Oh, thank you. Excellent. But it's very interesting the points you make. One of the points that I wanted to make is how much of the sort of anti-union feeling has been exacerbated, number one, by Brexit,

and number two, by, what, 12 years now, or 11 years now of conservative rule? Would it be more palatable to remain within the union if, number one, we were still in the European Union, and number two, if we had a Labour policy? party in charge. You've just added another layer of complexity and incomprehensibility to the whole thing there. It's what I bring to the podcast now. Because I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why, in 2014, or in the run up to that first referendum on the Scottish question, it was clear that

were the Scots to favour independence in 2014, it would have taken Scotland out of the European Union. So a vote for Scottish independence in 2014 was a vote to leave the EU. It was inevitable. If Scotland had become an independent country. And then attempt to rejoin. That was the plan, right? Well, yes. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, you know, that's jammed tomorrow. That's something that might happen. You know, there's plenty of evidence up front because of the, because of the, because of Catalonia and the Basques in Spain and France that, that, you know, the idea of allowing a separatist country back into the European Union, as far as a country like Spain was concerned,

might have been a red rag to a bull. But anyway, but the point was the Scottish National Party, the independence campaign was predicated upon, if you vote for independence, you're voting to leave the European Union. That's what would have happened. Yeah, at some point down the line, they may or may not have been able to rejoin the EU, but it was a...

And at the time they were saying, well, if that's it, that's the way it has to be. So it was effectively a skexit. It was Scotland leaving the European Union in 2014. That's what would have happened if Scotland had voted for independence. And then 2016, of course, the Brexit referendum in the UK, the decision was taken to leave the European Union. And at that point, at that point only did the yes campaign

or the Scottish government take up the cudgels based on the fact that Scotland was being, quote, ripped to. out of the European Union against its will. Well, the Scottish government would have ripped Scotland out of the European Union against its will if they had got independence in 2014. So that was a pretty fast turnaround through 180 degrees.

And I think as much as anything else, it was political expediency, you know, when they took up the cudgels for that reason and in that way. But you're right. I mean, when you said that about the country being divided, that, I think referenda are a, My instinct is against.

I think when you give people binary decisions to make, you better have a very good reason for doing that. You know, there are questions. You know, do you turn around to your wife after 20 years and say, do you really love me? I mean, why would you, why do you ask the question? It's probably, it's probably going to cause problems asking a question like that. And the Brexit question, the Scottish independence question,

it was guaranteed to cause nothing but hurt, and so it has done. Neil, you're a historian, and actually it just occurred to me that that would be a really interesting thing to talk about. And I know you're very passionate about Scotland remaining within as part of the UK. But give us a historian sort of neutral observer from a vantage point. The argument historically about Scotland being with England or not being, like what is the history of Scottish and English you know, coexistence, if you like. Oh, my goodness. Let me, I mean, before anybody else says it, you know, I'm not, I am not a historian.

I'm an archaeologist and I love history. Sure. And I've, you know, I've spent, you know, I've spent 20 years, 30 years, you know, being fascinated by history. So I speak from that. I'm an enthusiast. I've got an enthusiast's perspective rather than, I'm not an academic historian. I'll make that quite clear myself.

there's been something like a Scotland for a thousand years there's been an entity understanding itself actually first of all as ALPA which is hence that you know Alex Salmon's breakaway independence party that he is now set up in competition to the Scottish National Party but for over a thousand years there's been a geographical entity understanding itself as a place Scotland and likewise for England so in the European

context, these are very old countries, which sounds like a funny thing to say in a way. You think all countries are probably the same age, but they're not. You know, there's only been Germany, as we, as we know it today, since about 1870, 1871, when it was unified in the form that we recognise. Likewise, Italy, Italy is about the same age, and other European countries are the same age or younger still. So there's a great depth of history for both Scotland and for England. And they, and they, they coexisted, you know, happily and unhappily for even longer than that. Ever since the time of the Norman conquest in 1066, which was, you know, was effectively a kind of a French takeover at the boardroom level of the United Kingdom.

And thereafter, that French, Norman French presence began to have an effect not only in England, but in Scotland as well. you know Robert Bruce you know the iconic legend of Scottish history and Scottish independence is Robert de Brie's you know he's descended and not that far away from you know not too many generations away from Norman French and by the time Robert Bruce was in play there there had been many Scottish monarchs

who had imported Norman French into you know into Scotland to be their allies and in many ways the wars of independence that ensued between Scotland and England were, it was a fight between rival French families to some extent. Edward I, Edward I, Robert Bruce, there was much more going on than anything that was just straightforwardly, traditionally, Scottish in inverted commas or English in inverted commas. And, you know, they were brought, they came closer in terms of marriage over the years in the 16th century. Margaret Tudor, who was Henry the 8th's sister, married King James the 4th of Scotland. So the English rose and the Scottish thistle were entwined at that point in the early

1500s. Then in 1513 there was a catastrophic disaster for a Scottish army that invaded England, a catastrophic Scottish defeat. And it's so hollowed and damaged the confidence of Scotland that given that they were already bound by marriage, it nudged Scotland further down the road towards Union. When Elizabeth died without an air, when her long rain came to an end, she was succeeded by James the 6th of Scotland, who became James I of England.

And so that brought the two crowns together for the first time. And then in the late 17th century, Scotland had got into a disastrous overseas expedition to Darien in the Panama, the narrows of Panama in South America, lost a quarter of its wealth, just lost all in one goal. It was a catastrophic economic disaster. And in the aftermath of that, Scots, who had lost out hugely in that debacle of an attempt to set up Scottish colonies in South America, were coaxed into supporting the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament and joining together with the English Parliament in 1707 to create the Union of Parliaments.

So at that point on Scotland and England, we're not just joined by a mum. monarch, but they were joined by a combined parliament. So it's been a story spanning centuries. And then the three centuries that have elapsed since that union in 1707 saw Scots come to prominence. Scots were very active participants in what became the British Empire. They were, you know, they were enthusiastic partners in everything that the British Empire did. And so more recent attempts by Scots, some Scots, to distance themselves from the British flag, from the Union Jack and from slavery and colonialism and other aspects of British history that have been painted very darkly in recent times, you know, as disingenuous and extreme, because Scotland was

always intimately involved in all of that. It was an enthusiastic and committed partner in all of it. And then you come down to the more recent, more recent period, you know, the political, political past, when I was growing up, when I was in my, where are we now? I mean, I suppose in my teens, 20s and 30s, traditionally Scotland was a country that was dominated by Labour. You know, Scottish Labour was, you know, bestrored Scotland like a colossus. And it was, it was always hugely significant in terms of UK elections, the fact that Labour was always able to depend upon this Scottish bloc vote for Labour. You know, it made the Scottish Labour very influential in that regard. And when devolution came around,

in the late 1990s, the Labour Party were confident that devolution would entrench their position. The Scottish, under Donald Dewar and the rest, they saw no reason to believe that Labour's dominance of Scotland would ever change. But the version of proportion of representation that they set in place, the devolution settlement, the Scotland Act, was fatally flawed. And those flaws have been exposed in more recent times and the way in which the SNP has been able to, to establish a majority of itself in the Scottish Parliament is a product of the faults that were there in the Scotland Act and in the devolution settlement and in the choice of proportional representation

that was made at that time. So, sorry to bore your rigid with that. You're not. With that history lesson. Francis, let me just finish this. It's been a long dance. It has been a long and complicated dance. You know, good times and bad times, all the rest of it.

And then, you know, finally, by 2014, you know, Scotland's or some Scots sought divorce from its partner of 300 years. Hey, Francis, do you like Martians? Well, I work with one, don't I? Would you like to have an immersive experience with a Martian? Are you going to get me drunk on the vodka? I'm in my fucking go-s like last time. You wish. No, there's this great new immersive experience in London based on Jeff Wain's The War of the War of the World.

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War of the World's Immersive.com and experience a world where we're being invaded by Martians, which is still better than being in lockdown. Follow the link in the description and I'll see you there. Neil, let me follow up a little bit on that because I lived in Scotland from about 2000 until about 2008, 2009, something like that. And so I saw the S&P just starting to make its first big waves. And one of the things, look, it's not my fight. It's not for me to decide the future of Scotland, even when I lived there. But what I did notice was a sort of strange thing where, and I don't, as I say, I don't have a particular position, actually,

on the independence question. It's not something I know really enough about. But what I did definitely see was this was a time when Tony Blair, who had strong Scottish links, was Prime Minister, Gordon Brown was a Scottish Chancellor of Exchequer, John Reid was a Scottish Home Secretary. Many of the great offices of state in the United Kingdom were filled by Scots. and when one Scott went, he'd often be replaced with another Scott.

And yet at the same time, I saw this sort of narrative about how Scottish people are underrepresented, not being given enough influence or power that Scotland is being ignored down south. Have you noticed that as well? Or did I just make that up? No, that was always. I mean, I grew up through all of that in Scotland. It was always the case. was being made, you know, through the, through the Thatcher era and more recently that the allegation

was always made that Scotland would vote one way and too much of the rest of the UK would vote for a conservative government. And so, you know, so having voted Labour, you know, Scots would end up with a, with a conservative government. Or indeed, you know, even under, you know, SNP holding sway in the Scottish government, there's still a, you know, been a, for a long time, has been a Conservative government in Westminster. But I mean, at a personal level, I can tell you that I have never lived a single day in Scotland under a government that I voted for.

And I'm 54. I've never, not one day, not one day have I lived under a government that I've actually voted for. So I know, you know, for different reasons than maybe that, you know, that's mainstream, but I know exactly what it feels like to go to the polling booth every four or five years and walk away disappointed. I know

what that is like. But yes, that's always been the case. Scotland has a different political heritage. You know, there's a different, you know, there's different aspects of character for a lot of Scots. I mean, that is the case.

And the devolution settlement was supposed to create a situation where whatever Parliament was in Holyrood, there wouldn't ever be an absolute majority. the proportion of representation system that we put in place was supposed to mitigate against that so that whatever assembly came together in Hollywood would always proportionally represent

the many different facets of Scottish political life but that is not what it actually delivered as has been made plain by the way in which you know nationalism is coming in creases. to dominate every aspect of Scottish life. And Scottish nationalism has always been a minority pursuit in Scotland. And when I was growing up, you know, the SNP was very much a fringe organisation.

It was almost a protest group. It's so small and inconsequential did it tend to be in the scheme of things. But the devolution settlement that created the Holyrood Assembly had cracks and fissures within it. and the SNP have risen up through those cracks, like hot water coming up in thermal springs and it's come out on the surface. And here we are with a Scotland that is dominated disproportionately by the Scottish National Party.

And, Neil, you were talking about the slow dance. Don't you think that Scotland, it's inevitable that you're going to do a slow dance to an exit from the Union? I don't believe in inevitable. I don't believe in inevitable. That's the Kobayashi Maru in Star Trek. I don't believe in the unwinnable situation.

And I think anybody that looks ahead with a crystal ball is insane. I don't believe a polling. How anyone can still be a pollster? I do not know. Because, I mean, I worked in newspapers and I've been around polling. And, you know, the first thing a polling company asks you when you approach them for a poll is, what answer do you want? you know what do you want this poll to tell you and they'll just go away and they'll and they'll give you that result

so all the polling that's out there now around everything that was around Brexit that's around support for lockdowns that's around support for vaccine passports and all the rest of it all of it on account of polling and depending on what you're looking at you'll see that oh yeah there's been a swing to a vote for an increased support for independence or separatism in Scotland I don't buy it I talk to people I can only really, like everyone else, I can only honestly reflect back the opinions that I hear. Now, I'm quite recognisable in Scotland and, you know, where I live. And a lot of people come up to me and talk to me. People from all sorts of walks of life, all ages, both sexes, all through the classes,

people come up to me and air their views. And my straw poll tells me that there is still, to this day, a majority in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom in Scotland. Now, that's, I can honestly, hand on heart, I am reflecting to you what I understand to be the mood of the people in Scotland. And regardless of what's said about, you know, who's going to hold majorities here, there and everywhere, that's down to the, that's down to the inadequacies of the devolution settlement. I, as I understand it, myself, based on the people that come up and talk to me, there's a majority in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom in Scotland. And so in answer to your question, no, nothing's inevitable. I don't believe in the Kobe Ashi-Maru. Well, that told me, Neil, thank you very much.

But there are things that are happening in Scotland that just leave me open-mouthed. The hate speech bill, is it Hamza Yusuf, who has brought in this hate speech bill. And forgive me, I may have got this wrong. But from what I understood from the bill, you can get arrested for things that you say in the privacy of your own home.

if it gets reported to the police? Well, if it, it's still in the process. So the hate crime bill has gone through a consultation process. It's been approved by a vote in the Scottish Parliament. But it's yet to get, what is it, the royal assent? So it's not the law of the land yet. But yes, hypothetically, if I was to say something in my house, that, you know, sitting on the couch with my wife and kids,

I could say something, and one of my kids could repeat it outside. In the playground at school, well, if they ever go to school again. Depending on who overheard what one of my children said I had said, hypothetically, I could go to jail for seven years for something that I said while sitting on the couch watching telly in the privacy of my own home. the hate crime bill has been extremely controversial. I don't, I mean, I'm not a, I've never been a political person.

I've never joined a political party. I hold politicians in general contempt, really. I'm cynical to the point where it almost chokes me when I have to make a decision about who to vote for every general election. Like Billy Connolly, I believe that the spoken desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever being allowed to be one. That said, I've, I've, I've drifted into paying more and more attention to things political as the years have gone on.

I only became aware of the hate crime bill in truth because I realized that so many unlikely bedfellows were getting together to say, this is a disaster waiting to happen. You know, it was figures from the church, it was the police, it was people from the legal fraternity, it was authors, comedians, politicians, all sorts of people were coming together. know, this unlikely confederacy formed when it was in the consultation period saying you're going, there's holes in this, this legislation is so sloppy, so loose, so open to dangerous misinterpretation, it's a disaster waiting to happen. There's a lot of the disquiet rotates around the notion of stirring up hatred. That's, that's the language that's involved.

if you say something or do something and someone who hears you say it believes in their heart that you were stirring up hatred then potentially you're in trouble and the onus would be on you to prove that you had not intended to stir up that hatred

and it might have passed me by but so many different groups people that you would never have expected to hear speaking together on the same subject were saying you can't have that the notion that you might stir up hatred It's so vague you could drive a coach and horses through the gaps in it. Tighten that up or take it out altogether.

And so I thought, goodness me, there are truly must be something questionable about this. And, you know, there's been various amendments made and things taken out. But in the form that it went through for approval by the Scottish Parliament, which it got, everyone voted for it, with the exception of the Conservative MSPs, SNP, Labour, Libdom and Green, they all nodded it through. It was shameful that they voted through this flawed, dangerously untidy, sloppy legislation. And we'll see what becomes of it in the years ahead. But yes, hypothetically, the danger that it poses to freedom of speech, freedom of expression is alive and well in Scotland.

And we're all worried sick about it. Neil, I've gigged many times in Scotland. I've gigged in the Steinbe in Glasgow many times. I'm going to be honest to you, it's my favourite comedy club in the UK. Brilliant. The crowds are amazing. You're much freer than you would be in she-she, liberal London, where everybody takes offence and grabs their handbagger, you know,

because you start to go into chop your waters. How can it be that a land like that where there's a love of jokes, there's a love of banter that has produced incredible comedians, transgressive comedians, people associate, Colony now as being this cute, cuddly comedian. He wasn't in his pomp. Jerry Sadowitz. Why have you suddenly gone down this route? Well, that is the question that everyone on my side of the debate once answered. It was always, I mean, there were so many reasons. When I would go on holiday in my teens, you know, when I was a student and shortly thereafter, and I'd be whatever, I'd been

the Greek islands or I'd be Spain or whatever, it was always a joy. It was always a joy. to be identified as somebody from Scotland because as soon as people realised people from all over, all over Europe, they associated, you're from Scotland and they expected you to be funny and they expected that right off the top they could take the pee out of you

and they would expect to be able to have great fun with you that you wouldn't take offence, that you were up for a laugh. It was all, and we were regarded as being sort of free thinking open, you know, liberal tolerant people. And it was, it was a joy. It was a joy to be associated with that. And I have lived to see Scotland go through this metamorphosis where now there's this Puritanism has come through. There was always Puritan aspects to Scotland. You know, Scotland was one of the few countries in Europe that took Calvinism to its breast, you know, while other countries in Europe were saying, you know, over my dead body. There's always

been that element in that joylessness. It's part of the. gaiety of the nation. It's part of the rich tapestry that is Scotland, but there were always these small-minded, Calvinist, joyless, you know, just go home and live in your miserable wee house and drink a cup of tea and watch a soapopper on the telly and that's good enough for you.

There was always that element, but it was drowned out by the broader picture of Scots who were ready for a joke, ready for a laugh, didn't take things too seriously, you know, were passionate about a discussion, passionate politically, enjoyed nothing more than having a good square go of a debate in a pub or over a dinner table or whatever and then we'd just move

on from it and then five days later have the same fight again and you know and and just go through it all again and now with the with the with the hate crime bill and other legislation there is just this sense of of of the scottish government of the scottish national party wanting to put a lid on what has always been in scotland shut the door draw the curtains keep yourself to yourself be secretive you know There's just this claustrophobic, joyless atmosphere that has established itself like damp in Scotland. And it's dispiriting in the extreme. And yes, you're absolutely right. I mean, for no, it was no surprise that, say, the Edinburgh Fringe was regarded around the world as somewhere that you'd come to to to see or to listen to the best fun comedy on the planet.

And now a situation has been created where somebody's saying, something that could be construed as stirring up hatred. God knows. I mean, how many different ways could you interpret a statement like that? Could see a comedian end up in jail? That's why I've been encouraging him to go back to Scotland so I can have the podcast to myself. Well, you joke, but actually, Neil, you know,

the last time we were able to do Edinburgh as comedians was 2019. I took my show to Edinburgh, and as part of the show, I made a number of, you know, it was a show about the importance of freedom of expression. And so I deliberately went out of my way to show that certain very offensive words can be uttered in a particular context. And I would have jokes to support that and to take the audience on a journey from, well, I'm not sure of freedom of speech is important all the way to, well, here's some examples and here's how you go with it. But in order to do that, I had to bring up very offensive things and to talk about them comedically. Now, I'll be honest with you, if I was doing that show now, I would not come back to the Edinburgh Fringe.

Well, no. Well, we're yet to see. We're yet to see. As I say, as I understand, the hate crime is not there yet. But that was one of the loudest groups that spoke out in consternation and alarm when this thing was going through its consultation, period. We're comedians. That was one of the things that was grabbing headlines, the length and breadth of the UK, with comedians saying, I'll never be able to go back to Edinburgh.

I can't go and do, I can't go and do a, you know, such and such a show because I could end up in jail. And it would even be, you wouldn't even have to say it in Scotland. I mean, I've, you know, I've been doing stuff on, you know, I've been doing stuff on, you know, I talk to talk radio on a weekly basis. You know, that gets broadcast nationally. And, you know, hypothetically, Mike Graham, or, Another of the DJs could find themselves accused of stirring up hatred in Scotland,

although they're taking part in a broadcast from London. The sloppy nature of the legislation that has gone through frightens everyone to death. And for someone, you know, like me, I mean, I revel, although I've never been political, I revel in arguing. I love arguing with people. and I love you know

I would take up a position on a topic just so that I could have a fight about it I don't mean fisty cups I just mean a verbal exchange because it's in my nature to do that and to you know and to express opinions

and I love being in the cut and thrust of all that you know heated debate and all the rest of it and that that that the opportunity to have something as simple and joyful as a heated

argument about a topic about whatever gender or race or religion or all the stuff of life but you couldn't have that debate in Scotland from now on because you could open your mouth be accused of stirring up hatred and be in Berlin for seven years. Burlini being a prison in Glasgow. Oh I'm well familiar with it. No, but Neil, it's an interesting moment we're in because I feel like Scotland Yeah

Yeah I feel like Scotland is not really an exception On this front You have some stuff going on That maybe we don't quite yet But broadly We seem to be in a very particular Moment in history

Where we are repeating A lot of the mistakes That have been repeated At these peak moments of madness In the past What what How do you look at it From an you know

Obviously an archaeologist but in enthusiastic history. Like what is the moment we're in? What are some of the parallels? What should we be wary of societies in the current climate? I think, well, it can only be a cumulative, can't it? It must be a cocktail of many elements. I think in no small part, it has to do with the fact that, you know, broadly speaking

since the end of the Second World War, the people of, Western Europe, and certainly this archipelago, have broadly lived in peace. And that threat has been something that happened elsewhere. And I suspect with that comes a dangerous complacency. And we've lived with and we've enjoyed freedoms that are unique, not just in the world, but unique in history. As many people have said, you know, life has been all. almost intolerable for 99% of the human species for 99% of the time. And what evolved very, very recently in our part of the world was unique and so vulnerable.

And if too many, I suppose if too many generations go by without the necessity to defend and be aware of the uniqueness of our position, I suppose it's too easy to grow up thinking that that which is here now will always be here as though tolerance and freedom and the ability to travel around and do what you like and say what you like and travel internationally and take all advantage of all of those freedoms you might think that they're natural but they're not nothing about the way that we've lived in our part of the world for a hundred years has been natural it's extremely unnatural It's blessed and being wonderful, but it's an incredibly fragile flower.

And it's only when that beautiful thing is snatched away from people that they realize that the snatching away is even possible. I don't think it occurs to people. You know, we live in something that is held aloft by centuries of hard-won struggle. You know, we're in a penthouse flat with a fantastic view. and the ossified desiccated bones that are holding us up are made and shaped by the suffering of generation after generation and it's been a story of triumph and disaster but it's left us held up somewhere in the sky

and if you knock out those layers below us that tower that's been holding us up we will not remain suspended in mid-air you know our lovely penthouse with its fantastic views of the world will just topple, it'll just drop straight to the ground. Maybe we're two, three generations into soft living. Maybe, I mean, I caught the end of those generations that were let loose. As a kid, I was just sent out of the house in the morning and came back in at night or when I got hungry. But the generations since, and I've seen it with my own children,

wrapped in cotton wool, looked after, you know, as though they were, fine bone China that was going to be, you know, terribly damaged if anybody handled it roughly. And I think those generations, maybe a couple of generations, have come up risk averse and feeling threat everywhere and that the advent of something like this, you know, pandemic has just been the, has just been something that has that has terrified people and made people think that maybe the world isn't a perfect place. And in seeking safety from it, they've been prepared to surrender. Too many people have been prepared to surrender, well, all of their freedom in order to feel safe from a virus that's 99.7% survivable anyway. And look how quickly,

look how quickly society changes. You know, you might have thought five years ago, you might have said that changes like we've gone through in the last 12 months would take a generation now. You do it in a weekend if you're busy enough. And here we are. Great shots start with confidence. Bushnell Golf delivers the most accurate distances available, so you never second-guess the number. From GPS devices to laser rangefinders, every product is built for precision, ease of use, and reliability. Anywhere you play. It's innovation trusted by the PGA Tour and backed by decades of leadership in golf technology. Play with certainty.

Bushnell Golf, trust the number. Visit bushnellgolf.com. I mean, here we are indeed, Neil. I suppose the question is, how do we row back from this? Because it seems we're hitting crisis point in Scotland, in England, all over the world. Do you think there might be a natural backlash against everything that's happening, Neil, just a younger generation of people coming through for like, well, we've been brought up with safety, we need to rebel against it, we want freedom again.

And we've got a generation maybe of younger people. this is just me talking optimistically now, which is unusual for me. You know, talking, thinking about, well, we've got an opportunity now to be different. We want to rebel against our parents. We want freedom. We want to be able to say what we think. We want to be able to do what we want to do. Well, I think you're right.

I think it's an obligation to be optimistic, almost. I mean, I'm as depressive as the next Celtic Scott. You know, I tend towards the dark side all the time. And my wife says to me all the time, you know, you'll lighten up for God's sake. Because I tend to the darkness. And I do feel that it's almost an obligation to hope for the best. And I would like to think, you know, I've got kids 17, 15 and 12. And, you know, we talk to them.

And I know that they have unconsciously absorbed. the the appreciation of the freedoms that we've had you know we've had the kids traveling a bit and they've you know they've put to school and they do the normal things you know they've lived in a you know they've lived in a free society where they were able to you know roam around and go to the cinema and go out to eat and see their friends and stay in each other's houses and all the rest of it and they've seen that they've seen that taken away and they ball cut it I see them bridle at it and they tell us that their friends their peers their contemporaries are saying the same and so that you hope you're

You absolutely hope that some of that appetite for freedom has become genetic or epigenetic and it's there in people's DNA. And ultimately, everything's always about the people. It's so simplistic and cliched to say it. But those making decisions and those who seek to rule over us are a microscopic minority. And you've got, you know, in every country you've got tens of millions of people. and if tens of millions of people are dissatisfied and exercise their right to live freely, then that will prevail. You know, freedoms have been taken from people wholesale before,

but the desire for freedom is like grass through tarmac. It just comes back. And it takes so much energy for authoritarian and totalitarian, regimes to keep the pressure on, that inevitably they always become exhausted. It takes too much effort. I mean, we all know that, you know, if you're going to have a police state, you end up in a situation where you need one policeman for every person, at least, and it becomes too exhausting. And it's easier to be free. And I hope that people, you know, realize it's all about looking at what we've had and knowing that it's as fragile as a spring flower.

You know, a moment, you know, as Robert Burns said, you know, like the snow falls in the river, a moment white then melts forever. You know, it's these freedoms that we have had are fragile and ethereal. You see as the flower its bloom is dead. You know, if enough people waken up to the fact that, you know, freedoms are, are, are, fragile, rare, and to be cherished. And yes, the obligation is to be optimistic and the obligation is to hope that enough people demand the freedom that they have known. Neil, thank you so much for that. It has been an absolutely brilliant interview flew by.

We always finish our interviews with the same question, which is, what is the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? the truth. I keep hearing. I keep hearing most recently on that royal interview about people talking about my truth, your truth. There's only the truth. And enough, everything, everything, the kind of society that I want and the kind of society that I know that the majority of the people that I know and love want is predicated upon everyone having the confidence and indeed taking the responsibility, accepting the obligation to tell the truth. Don't just think it, don't just know it, but every opportunity you get in a public forum, tell the truth. It's like Mark Twain said,

if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. Neil, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolutely brilliant episode, as it always is with you. If you want to find Neil on Twitter, go to The Coast Guy and you'll be able to find him there. You can also check him out on Patreon. If you can, spare it a little dough, make sure you do, because Neil's work is absolutely brilliant. And he has a brilliant podcast out as well. He's one of the best people at talking about history. So make sure you check that out. Thank you for watching and we will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or live stream. Take care and we'll see you soon. Take care and remember they go out always 7 o'clock UK time. See you soon, guys.