TRIGGERnometry - Nigel Farage: "We're Heading for a Political Revolution"

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

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Never thought I'd say it. At the moment Jeremy Hunt was announced as the next chancellor, I said it's a globalist coup. And this is language that previously I'd have looked at and thought, well, I'm not going to touch that, I'm not going to go there. But I literally think that is what happened. What is the point of the Conservative Party, Nigel?

I'm absolutely no one. I'm sorry, you've got me. It's the first time it's ever out. They represent nothing. Absolutely nothing. The Conservative Party need to be replaced. The new now. The narrative is the next industrial revolution is going to be green technology, green energy.

And of course, it's all for the birds. What has been done in the name of climate change has led to one of the biggest transferences of money from the poor to the rich this country has ever seen in history. Central bank digital currencies would mean that every payment into our accounts or out of our accounts would be monitored, would be controlled. the state would have total supervision of the entirety of our economic activity. I think everything's broken. I don't think anything works here at all.

And I think things are going to get a lot, lot worse. Hey Francis, are you worried about inflation? Absolutely, mate. Every time I eat dairy, it smells me right up. There's bloating, not inflation. What's a difference? Neither is good for you, and they both leave you, feeling devalued.

Bosh. Absolutely atrocious. If you are worried about actual inflation and need impartial advice as to how to survive the economic crisis, then Fortune and Freedom is for you. Fortune and Freedom is published by South Bank Investment Research and is for the investor looking to access a wide range of informed opinions

on lots of different investing opportunities. Their brilliant newsletter covers everything from causes and the impact of inflation to the rise of cryptocurrencies, gold investing and much more besides. Through their daily news commentary and special reports, Fortune and Freedom can give you more confidence in making informed decisions about what to do with your money. Simply go to Fortuneandfreedom.com. That's Fortune andfreedom.com and sign up for a free newsletter that will help your money work for you. The link is in the description. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

I'm Constantine Kisham. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest is returning for the third time. He needs no introduction, whatever. Nigel Farage. Welcome back to Trigonon. Good to be back and great to see how well you're doing.

Thank you so much, Nigel. It's good to have you on. How have you been, first of all? Good. I mean, you know, living life outside of leading minor political parties is far more desirable. It's funny thing. me about it all the time. Funny thing is this, you know, what I do, whether it's for GB News or the business stuff I'm doing, if I get it right, people say well done. If I get it wrong, people

say you're an idiot. That's fine. I'm directly accountable for what I do. Leading UKIP and the Brexit party, you know, it's the sort of mid-saturday morning phone call from the mail on Sunday. Did you realise that your membership secretary in Sheffield at 3 o'clock this morning posted a comment on Twitter? And suddenly you're responsible for everybody else. So at the moment, being a bit more of a loner than I've been for many years. I'm enjoying it, and, you know, obviously I've been there with GB News almost since the beginning. It's quite an exciting thing to try and get a new TV channel off the ground in the UK. So I'm happy, myself, but not wildly happy about the state of the country is in.

Well, quite. And, I mean, I can understand the relief. You no longer have people working for you that you've never met who are saying, you know, gays caused flooding or whatever. Which of us, and that, I mean, that one was, classic. That guy, that guy. But this shows you what you're up against, taking on the British establishment. That guy had been a conservative counsellor for 22 years. Right. Right. And he was a far in Brimston Methodist minister, you know, on a whole range of subject. And all the one, he was a conservative. I mean, he didn't even make the local paper. As soon as he becomes

UKIP, it's a national sensation. And that's kind of what I had to put up with. And And you do realize, you know, and you guys are doing it with what you're doing with this podcast, when you take on the perceived wisdom, the consensus view of the day, you know, you are automatically written off as being mad and bad. The hit pieces come out and all the rest of it. But look, you talk about the stay of the country, which is much more important than that. And I want to take you back to ancient history, Nigel, the 44 days of the trust premiership, because I remember, you know, irrespective of the person.

Some of the stuff that she was saying, I imagine knowing you a little bit, would have had you quite excited. I mean, low taxes, pro-business, fracking. A relaxation of IR-35 rules, which are killing, you know, small, self-employed men and women acting as contractors, whether they're driving lorries or doing work in the tech sector. No, a lot of it was good thinking. You know, for example, VAT-free shopping. We're losing this business. We're losing it to Paris. We're losing it to Frankfurt.

You know, lots of little things there that actually ended up and made an awful lot of sense. The most important thing was a change of direction. Now, what Quartang's budget did, it proposed a very modest half a percent cut in the size of a state. That's all it was. Half a percent cut in the size of a state. And the globalists went absolutely mad, led by the International Monetary Fund, who acted, I think, in the most extraordinary way. And of course, we saw later on pylons from the White House.

from the German chancellorship. And yeah, 44 days, it was all over. In fact, she lasted exactly the same time as Brian Clough lasted at Leans. All those years ago. And I look, I think, here's the funny thing. They said these are unfunded tax cuts, and that's the problem the markets have got.

And yet, a cap had been put on energy prices that could have been limitless if the price of natural gas had continued to go up. So yeah, you know, we are I sort of never thought I'd say it but the moment Jeremy Hunt

was announced as the next chancellor I said it's a globalist coup and this is language that previously I'd have looked at and thought well I'm not going to touch that I'm not going to go there but I literally think that is what happened this is what I was going to ask you Nigel because I think the globalist part of it

we can talk about as well but also from within the country itself I'm starting to wonder whether we have dynamism in this country. We believe that we seem to have become a country that's forgotten that we have to make money before we can squabble over who gets what. Do we still have that drive and ambition and the desire to build things in this country, or have we given up? Look, there are lots of people out there that are entrepreneurial, that are hardworking, that despite the tax regime,

despite the regulatory regime, will still go out there and do their best. But there's an awful lot of people who are not doing that because they're not being encouraged to do that, and they're not seeing the reward for doing that. And we've kind of got into a situation, the pandemic was a very good example, where both of our political parties are saying, the state will look after you.

From the moment of conception until death, the state will look after you. And for a lot of people, that's a very comforting message. You know, you know, don't worry, we'll put you on furlough. Don't worry, we'll compensate you for this, for that, for the other. And welfareism, you know, welfareism, I'm afraid, is making millions of people lazy. You know, I'm too fat. I'm too stupid.

I'm too lazy. I don't get out of bed in the morning. I smoke drugs. Give me money. I like the fact that he pointed at me. He lost a lot away. It was generic. But no.

And that's what we're saying. I don't need to work. The state's going to provide for me. But this is all running up against a series of deadlines. We just cannot go up. We can't afford it. We cannot go out. And you get all this guff from the conservatives

about cussing debt. All they do is cut the deficit a little bit. The deficit still builds. And it's quite a sobering thought. The debt still builds, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that gets ignored. You know, I mean, I listen to, I mean, you hear conservative politicians saying things like,

oh, we are, we're the conservative party, we don't want to leave debts to future generations. We'll have to think about this. When David Cameron stepped through the door of number 10, our accumulated national debt since the Napoleonic War was about 700 billion. It's now 2.5 trillion. And yes, you know, I get it. We've had pandemics, etc. But every single year, the size of a national debt. gets bigger. You've now, of course, got a rising interest rate environment,

meaning even the repayments on debt are more than double our current defence budget. We've got a National Health Service. Amazing to think that we're now putting 12% of our GDP into health. 12%. Just a handful of years ago, that was 8%. So a 50% increase in the share of the national cake being put into health and fewer people getting treatment or seeing GPs. So something's gone fundamentally wrong with this model. And I think that Quarteng fully understood that.

And trust may well have been a late convert to all of this. But hey, that's what she stood up and said. So, no, I welcomed much of the budget. I think if there is a criticism, they try to do too much, too quickly, without prior briefing and explanation. There was an element of big bang about the way in which it was done. But I remember the 81 budget.

You know, the 81 budget, Mrs Thatcher was a deeply unpopular prime minister, unemployment was climbing fast, inflation was climbing fast, things were very, very tough. And that budget, there were 364 economists, wrote to the Times to say, you know, this budget is a disaster. But the difference was Thatcher held. She held her position. You know, the lady is not returning. That was that year of 81.

And the back benches held. and what happened here is the backbench is wobbled really quite quickly because a lot of conservative backbenchers are basically globalists and listen to those big noises that come from the multinationals, from IMF, etc. And as soon as she sat Quarteng, it was over. Quarteng was out, Hunt was in, it was all over. I would much have preferred for her to hold a nerve. Hold a nerve, the two of them, stay together, keep making those arguments

and see if the party dare get rid of them. But that didn't happen. I'm going to ask you a quite unfair question, Nigel. I'm used to that. What is the point of the Conservative Party, Nigel? Told you it was a tough one. I've no idea. I've absolutely no idea.

I'm sorry, you've got me. It's the first time it's ever happened. No, I don't know. No, I mean, look, you know, they are, even PMQs every week. There are backbenchers. We need more money for this. The state must do more than that. the constant demand.

They represent nothing. Absolutely nothing. I mean, here we are. For me, this is fascinating. Ten years ago, from 2011 onwards, it was pretty obvious. We had, call me Dave, in number 10. We had the man who's driven the Facebook share price down by 80%

as Deputy Prime Minister. I did say to everybody once he went there, sell you stock. I've been saying it again and again. And you had Miliband running Labour. There were three versions of social democracy. And social democracy is a soft form of socialism that says the state can do things better than you as an individual, can do them for yourselves. And at the time, you know, my phrase was,

you can't put a cigarette paper between them. And everyone thinks that the Brexit insurgency was about Europe and immigration. Actually, it was about a whole raft of issues. And it's why UKIP was winning council seats, you know, district, county, seats on the Welsh Assembly, whatever it was, that we were questioning the whole narrative of where the national debate was. The point about Brexit, and I think most people miss this, after three years of the establishment doing their best to overturn the result,

because that's what they did, when I came back with the Brexit Party, which probably my proudest achievement, actually, to launch that thing, and it took off like a rocket, you know, six weeks, we won the election, Mrs May resigned before the count. I mean, oh joy. I mean, these were great days. What was interesting about that was, what was the slogan, I rammer?

Change politics for good. It wasn't even about getting the Brexit deal done. It was change politics for good. And there was a belief and a desire that the Brexit vote, I mean, it was a modern day peasants revolt against the entirety of the establishment. And a belief that it would lead

to a new kind of politics. hasn't done that. In fact, the Tories have been more of a chumocracy, even than they were under Osborne and Cameron. And frankly, you know, Stama can talk about the AT on school fees, on non-dom status. But really, really, there's nothing to choose between these parties. And if conservatism does represent enterprise, hard work,

reward for success and a small state, then it's dead. It's dead. And I mean, my anger, my anger with Johnson and the Conservatives is all too real because he wouldn't have even been there without me. She'd have stayed on as Prime Minister. She couldn't even be challenged under the party rules for many, you know, for quite a long time, many, many, many, many more months. And then in the end, you know, in that election of 19, we gave Johnson a free pass on the

basis that we just had to get Brexit finished, even if it wasn't going to be perfect. So I'm furious with them. I think a very large number of voters out there are furious with them. I suspect if there was an election tomorrow, despite the postal voting register, we'd see the lowest turnout in modern history. What's the bloody point? You know, so I think that we've reached a point where the Conservative Party need to be replaced. you know, Labour and the Lib Dems can merge,

and we know we've got that sort of social Democrat centre-left position, but what's on the centre-right at the moment is very, very difficult. And, you know, Richard Tice is leading reform, you know, which was, I mean, I actually changed the name from Brexit Party to reform. And I do feel that fundamental wholesale reform and change

updating of our institutions, of our methods, our systems is vital. And Richard's made good progress. I mean, recent polls have them on 8, or whatever it is. But, you know, you're taking on a first-past-the-post electoral system with all the inbuilt advantages that it has. So my sort of belief is this.

I think Labour will win the next election pretty comfortably. And then we'll get to 2026. It'll be a couple of years in to Labour. People will start to realise they're not offering any solutions. so ever. We'll continue to see these disincentives for people to set up on their own. Still, some will. We'll also hit a point where the Brexit deal, much of it's up for renegotiation. And if there is going to be a moment when a political revolution could be launched, I'm thinking in my head it's about that time. What do you mean by a political revolution, Nigel?

Well, with Brexit, I said I'd cause an earthquake in British politics. I did, and the aftershocks are still being felt. No, I mean, if we're going to replace the Conservative Party, that would be a full-on political revolution, a completely new political party with a new political ethos. Look, I'm not saying that it will happen, but I am saying in response to your question that it needs to happen. Don't you think that what we really need to do

is changed first past the post. Yes, of course. And that's all part of the reform agenda. I mean, look, you know, I won two European elections. Two under PR. And yet my one big go at a general election in 2015, four million votes and one seat. I mean, you know, I can't pretend not to be pretty bruised by that.

Nigel, coming back to your point about there not being a cigarette paper between the parties, one of the things that I think you saw my speech at the Oxford Union and also when I was on. question time, I was quite actually stunned by the way the discussion around net zero happens in this country, because there is no debate, there is no conversation, this is what we must do. You know, like that tends to be how people approach that issue. Well, look, even conservatives. God's gone. There's no God anymore. You've got to believe in something.

So climate change and saving the planet has almost become a new religion, you know, added to which there are these terrible stories of hellfire and damnation. unless we do the right thing. Yeah, I was at a dinner the other week with sort of former cabinet ministers and some very big global businesses and conversation was fascinating about, you know,

we must get to net zero more quickly. And the huge economic benefit we're going to get from it. This is the new narrative. The new narrative is the next industrial revolution is going to be green technology, green energy. And of course, it's all for the birds.

Why is that? Why do you say that? What's wrong with Net Zero? Explain to people who've never thought about this issue. What is wrong with Net Zero? Number one, let's think about the big picture. You know, is carbon dioxide leading to global warming and catastrophe and the Maldives disappearing? Possibly. I've no idea.

I've absolutely no idea any more than you do or anyone does. What I do know is that when anybody tells you the science is settled, that is utterly moronic. But one of the reasons it's so difficult to get an open debate on this is when Tony Blair put the Broadcasting Act into law in 2001, which set up off-com, the regulator, etc. One of the areas over which national broadcasters do not need to provide due impartiality is the effect of CO2 on the environment and climate change.

And that is why Sky News can run. on a whole climate hour. That is why Radio 4 could have programming all day that talks about the sheer certainty that what we are doing is leading to climate change. So that's why we can't have a debate, all right? And it really fast, you know, once you understand that, you begin to see why?

Because Blair said the science is settled. Now, let's go back to that question. Even if CO2 levels are leading to an excessive warming of the planet, You have to ask yourself, what difference do we make? And the more you drill into these figures, the more extraordinary it becomes. Indonesia, for example, has 243 coal-fired power stations. That is how they get their electricity. China last year, or as my friend in America says, China.

China last year built 80, brand-new, mega-cold fired power stations. India, of course, again. And here's a stat that knocks them for six. I asked that group around the table the other week, the great and the good, the best in our society. I said, guys, anybody here got a clue how much coal the world will burn in 2023? Of course, they all look at you as if you've come from Mars.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Boris told us at COP 26. It was the end of coal. Remember the end of coal? Coal won't be used in the future. Well, the answer is 8 billion tonnes. Eight billion tons of coal will be burned for electricity, generation, steelmaking, etc. in the world in 2023.

That is a bigger figure that has ever been burnt by mankind on the planet. So actually, the use of fossil fuels around the rest of the world is going up and up and up. And we produce less than 1% of global sea. CO2. So even if there is a problem, we make no difference to it. So why then will we put upon ourselves an unnecessary act of self-harm? What is the logic of closing the red car steel plant? Happened in 2015. Red car up on the northeast coast, been a steel town for 150 years. The plant closes. 2,000 men and women lose their jobs. Economic devastation for that town. but it's okay because the company that owned the plant announced the next day

the production would be moved to India where the steel would get produced under lower environmental standards oh and then the good ship back to the United Kingdom so the net effect on carbon dioxide is actually up so we can both we do this so we can pretend to be green so we can say we've reduced our CO2 output as a country by 44% since 1990 hooray aren't we absolutely marvellous so we make no no no I'm an environment environmentalist. I'm an environmentalist. I have been all my life. You know, I genuinely worry what we're doing to the oceans, etc. I am an environmentalist, but this is a needless act of self-harm. You know, I mean, take diesel, take petrol. I mean, up to 40% of a diesel we put in our cars isn't even refined here. It's refined in Russia. And we import it back in. And all we've done under net zero, we've exported manufacturing jobs, both aluminium smelters, Gone. Most of our chemical production, gone. Most of our refining, gone. You know, steelmaking, gone. This stuff still gets made, but in different parts of the world. And then on energy, where we could be

self-sufficient, and we're going to need fossil fuels for the next three decades, at least, in some form. You know, we will need coal, albeit in small quantities, although when the wind doesn't blow, we might start firing up a few coal-fired power stations. So number one, we make no difference. Number two, we're putting upon ourselves an enormous act of self-harm. Number three, what has been done in the name of climate change has led to one of the biggest transferences of money from the poor to the rich this country has ever seen in history.

Tell us more about that. How? What we've done is we've loaded up people's electricity bills with subsidies. Up to 25% of your electricity bill has been for renewable obligation certificates, etc, which means basically we've given billions to large wind farm companies to Chinese manufacturers of solar panels of wind turbines. It's ordinary folk and small businesses

that have paid the cost for this. It's been going on for over 20 years. There's been an absolute conspiracy of silence in Westminster about it. And now because of the cost of living crisis, people are beginning to ask questions about, you know, what do you mean I need a heat pump? It's going to cost me seven grand.

and to put a heat pump on the side of my house. You know, electric vehicles are very expensive. It's now, of course, more expensive to drive an electric car up the motorway than it is a car on unleaded. So now questions are being asked. Now the new narrative is that actually this will all make us so much richer

and so much better there'll be so many more jobs. Well, yeah, there are jobs. There are jobs on the wind farms. There are jobs in green technology, but probably we're losing three to four jobs in traditional manufacturing. as opposed to what we're gaining in green.

This is an act of self-harm. It's hurting the poor. It's making no difference to the global environment whatsoever. And yet, it is pursued with a fanaticism by politicians and a media that don't need to ask the questions. Hey, Francis, do you hate monopolies? Of course I do. Every year, Christmas is ruined because of it.

What? Every year, the entire family gets around the table and we play that ridiculous game and the entire day is ruined. I'll never forgive my uncle Gerald for bankrupting me in Christmas 07. It was a disgrace and he was blatantly stealing from the bank.

All my life people have been taking advantage of me. Francis, I'm talking about monopolies as in companies that have exclusive possession or control of a commodity or service. Internet service providers operate like monopolies in the regions they serve. Even worse, many ISPs log your internet activity and sell that data onto other big companies

or advertisers. It was so obvious what he was doing. The man's always been a snake. Focus. ExpressVPN is a simple app for your computer or smartphone that encrypt your network data and tunnels it through a secure VPN server

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Just download the app, tap one button, and you're protected. We all use ExpressVPN at Trigonometry Towers to protect ourselves and our data. Nothing could protect me from Uncle Gerald and his thieving little rat hands. And ExpressVPN doesn't slow your connection. That's why ExpressVPN is rated number one by CNET, Wired TechRadar and countless others. And he has his smell about him. You never trust anyone who looks like they live in a bin. Francis, can you please say something about ExpressVPN? This is meant to be an ad, not a therapy session.

Oh yeah. It's genuinely great and I use it all the time on my phone. especially, super quick and easy to use. Visit expressvpn.com forward slash trigger. That's expressvpn.com slash trigger. And you'll get three extra months for free. That's expressvpn.com slash trigger to learn more. Nigel, why are we continuing to do this when the fact is, is our economy is in the Nacca's yard?

According to the IMF, we're the only economy, major economy that's not going to grow this year. Yeah, I mean, that's a funny one in a sense, because actually we've actually grown more. than the other G7 countries since Brexit. You won't hear that on the business. The IMF are taking a very bearish view, and I think they're right. I think the tax burden and the former,

the forward projections of the tax burden are a massive problem. You just think about this. We're sitting here now in February, having this chat. In eight weeks' time, corporation tax, business tax, is going to rise by 30%.

30% increase in corporation tax. Who pays corporation tax? The local laundrette. Small businesses. They didn't just giant multinationals. In fact, most of them managed to avoid paying any at all. So you've got a 30% increase in corporation tax. You've got a one and a quarter percent increase in dividend income,

which is how most people that run limited companies pay themselves. A total refusal to revisit these IR-35 rules, which basically means, you know, say you're running your own business, you know, and, and, and, say I'm, say I'm a part-time driver, and I'm doing work for you. I want to give you a bill, and you will pay that bill to me with VAT, if I'm VAT registered. Against what you pay me, I'm allowed to put the allowable costs of my vehicle against what I'm doing. But the new legislation says, ha, ha, ha, no, no, no, no, no, no. Nigel, you actually earn nearly all of your income from Constantine. Therefore, you should actually be on P.A.Y.

And if it's proven that you weren't generally self-employed, we can come after you for the next seven years. So employers are saying, all we want are people on P.A.E. An awful lot of people are saying, you know what, I can't be bothered. I'll retire early. I won't bother. So these are just little examples of the wrong direction we're going in. On direct taxes, what the IMF have picked up on is this. When the 40P top rate was established in 1988, that was top rate tax. 1.5 million people in Britain paid top rate tax.

With the current proposals, 8 million will be paying 40p or more. So what was considered top rate tax is now actually a pretty standard tax for middle income people. So the IMF are right to be pessimistic about the way the UK economy is going. I suspect it won't be quite as bad as they think it is because there is still entrepreneurial flair. But we've got the model all wrong. The incentives have completely gone. Hunt is crushing that. And I'm seeing people leaving the country.

People are leaving the country. It's quite interesting. I was looking at a global map of this yesterday. Unsurprisingly, people are leaving Ukraine. High net worth individuals are leaving the U.S. They're going. Dubai is picking up a huge number of them. And for the smaller younger entrepreneurs,

who are not yet high net worth individuals but want to be, they're going to Lisbon, they're going to Milano. There is huge tax competition right across Europe. We have got this completely and utterly wrong. Nigel, the counter argument to that is you look at the infrastructure in our country, and it's crumbling. The NHS, as much as it pains me to say, is no longer fit for purpose.

I think we can agree. So what do we do then? Well, we don't stick with the same model and keep pumping in more money because it's clearly not working, given the numbers I gave you earlier in this chat. No, we need a fundamental rethink on how we provide public services.

I think there is a... But Nigel, rethink is just a word. What do you mean? Well, we have to examine whether going to an insurance-based system might give us a better bang for buck. This isn't working. This is not working.

and, you know, far from, far from penalising people who want to walk for private education or private health, why not encourage you? Why not actively encourage people to opt out of the state system to leave more for everybody else? I don't think the current model of the NHS is going to survive the way that it is. I think there are examples in France, for example, of how they do things, which is much more of an insurance model in terms of how they think. We've got to change it. It isn't working.

And with the population crisis that we have, the massive population explosion that we have, it just isn't going to work. So Nigel, whenever anyone, particularly me hears a word insurance model. We instantly think of the United States of America, which to me isn't a good option either, to be brutally on. No, I mean, healthcare in America is very, very good,

provided you can afford it. But health care, well, even if you can't afford it, you will get looked after in America. You are not left to die on the street, all right? But the problem with health care in America, it's damned expensive. It's more expensive than it is here. Why? Well, because it's such a litigious society.

That, you know, any slight misdiagnosis you can start to sue. So, yeah, I get the point that you're making, but I didn't cite America. I cited France. I cited France who were getting much. And if you look across the board, you look at, say, cancer, heart attack strokes, the big three, if you look at those and look at the French

recovery rates and compare them to the UK's, there is no comparison. So we need to learn some lessons. So what does the French model look like? Well, the French model, of course, there is some form of payment. You know, you book a GP appointment in France, don't turn up. Well, you get fined.

There are little things like that that the French do. But the way the French health providers work with commercial companies, it's a much closer relationship. Now we have some of that. The problem here, of course, is as soon as the word privatise comes, you know, everyone throws their hands up in horror.

What is interesting, and they may not do anything about it, but what is interesting, is to see the way the Labour Party now positioning themselves. So Rishi says the NHS has got a few challenges, but it's okay. And we're going to give it more and more money. And West Streeting, who's the Labour spokesman, I think quite a bright lad says, no, no, no, no, this isn't working. We need a fundamental rethink.

So, you know, whether he delivers on that, with genuine radical thinking remains to be seen. But the reversal of positions here we're seeing in politics. I mean, look, they're all the same, as we said earlier. But you've got Labor saying, it's broken, it isn't working. You've got Labor arguing that they might cut taxes at some point in the future and be more pro-business. I mean, it's all over the place.

It's all over the place. I suspect that a Labour, as I said earlier, I suspect that two years into a Labour government will realize they've got nothing to offer whatsoever. Nigel, am I misremembering, or did you briefly mention this during your pro-Brexit campaign? I remember you saying something about an insurance-based model

and the backlash you got, I don't remember you ever saying anything about it again. So when you talk about Net Zero being a religion, I mean, the NHS is literally, God himself. The NHS was, I think that's changing. I think it was a significant number of people now who are realizing, you know, I can't get a GP appointment.

That's the most basic level, isn't it, of the NHS? So I think you'll see the opinion polls, there is now a shift. Yeah, I mean, it was Nigel Lawson that once said the, back in the aces that the NHS was the nearest thing to an official state religion that we had. That is changing.

That is changing. Net zero interestingly is changing. Because if you poll the country, a significant number of people there's something is just a letter of baloney but a lot of others who've clicked that actually

you know this isn't doing them any good it's going to cost them a fortune and it's why I said earlier that change politics for good the big hope of the Brexiteers the opposite has happened I actually think Westminster is now

more disconnected from the country on a wider range of issues than it was in the run-up to the Brexit vote which is why I hope at some point this political revolution can happen. Nigel, why is that? Why are politicians more disconnected than ever from the electorate? And I agree with you, by the way.

The influences upon them. Westminster is a, just as Brussels was when I was there, these are very small villages. There are huge influences on the individuals. And it happens in all sorts of subtle ways. It's the dinner you're invited to. It's the person you meet at the cocktail. party. It's the basic

desire of normal human beings to want to be accepted. What to be accepted? When I went to Brussels in 99, there were quite a lot. Labor lost a shedload of seats and there were three of us from UKIP, but there were quite a lot of new

conservative MEPs elected. Some were newbies. Others had been MPs before and were retreads, as I called them. They never said like that, but never mind. And the number of them that turned up saying, you know, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to fight against the system.

And I remember one of them, excuse me, remember one of them, Neil Parrish, Neil Parrish, he of tracked a pawn. And Parrish on day one was sounding like me. We're going to fight this and do this and do that. A couple of years in, I saw him as we were walking into the Parliament. Oh, you've changed tune, Neil, haven't you? He was a dairy farmer before. I said, I suppose life here's a bit better

than getting up at 4 a.m. to milk the cows, really, isn't it? Oh, no, no, dear boy, I've just become more pragmatic. And the same happens in Westminster. It's about being more pragmatic. It's about wanting to be liked by your fellow group of human beings. Don't underestimate that. Very difficult for people to stand alone. They all thought they'd turn me in Brussels.

I mean, it didn't. They didn't because I was there for a reason. and I knew exactly what it was. So, yeah, you finish up with everybody agreeing on virtually everything. Nobody wanted to cause a fence in the modern woke world in which we live. A media that reinforces all of that. A social media, which if you step outside, the accepted boundaries of Twitter, maybe Musk will change that,

but it gives you a hard time. And I suppose really in a word, cabinet, because most people in politics, they're there for a career more than they're there for what they can actually achieve. And it's, yeah, it is a total and utter disconnect. Whether we can ever break that

under the first past the post system remains to be seen. It's such a good point because you look at all the different politicians and they all have the same background. They all have, they all came to it the same way. Yeah, I remember even back in the 90s in the 80s. Labor, ex-trade unions, ex-miners, conservatives, you had people, you know,

former city boys, a lot of people were former military. Those people, I mean, you've got James Cleveley, who's... You've got a couple still, but they're dying out. I mean, the Oxbridge set on both front benches. At the Oxbridge set, I mean, nearly all of them do PPE. They nearly all do the same blimming degree. The Tories are worse than Labor, probably on this, but Labour aren't that far behind. Yeah, how much real-world experience is there on those front benches? And the answer is not very much. Or Rishi Sunak worked in Goldman Sachs.

He did the photocopy. There isn't much real-world experience there. And the social set that a lot of politicians come from, it is incredibly narrow. Incredibly narrow. I used to joke with the Cameron set that they all went to the same school, all went to the same university,

all did the same degree, all spent the weeks in London, the weekends in Westminster. None of them have any hobbies. No hobbies. No hobbies. No hobbies. No interest. No, no, no. No, Dennis Healy said, politicians did a hinterland. You know, Ken Clark had his jazz and his love for sport. You know, these guys have nothing outside their working lives at all. They marry each other's sisters. I mean, it really is true. Yeah, extraordinary. No hobbies. I find that really interesting. They have no passions. Quite suspect. really in a way. Well, I think so, yeah. It's a strange system, isn't it? I've been thinking

about this quite a lot because we elect people to run things, to run the country, who've never run anything else. It's quite a strange way of doing. Well, it is. I mean, John Reed, for example, very capable man in many ways, but John Reed held eight top cabinet positions for Tony Evalier in 10 years.

I mean, you've literally barely got time to get your feet under the table. I mean, hey, we had five education secretaries last year. Five education secretary. is, you know, four chancellors. The whole thing is absolutely. If you tried to run a company like that, the company would be bankrupt before you know it.

You couldn't run it either. You couldn't run it like that. I mean, the argument is that you could argue that Gordon Brown was thinking this way, because he did bring other people in, like Digby Jones, who'd been boss of a CBI, and Brown was thinking about bringing talents in. And in America,

Trump did this unashamedly. And it brought people in to run departments who were experts. in their fields, and I think maybe a bit more of that. But we kind of think that to be in cabinet, you have to be an elected MP, and I think maybe we need to try. Maybe that thinking needs to change.

I think a lot of our thinking needs to change. So do I. Say that again. Because there needs to be a tipping point, Nigel, for all of these changes that you've just talked about. Well, so he's retired now from public life, but I remember having a couple of conversations with Lord. Tebbit about all of this.

In the 1970s, we were the sick man of Europe. The country was going down Madrid in every regard. It's kind of why we joined the Common Market. We were doing so badly. We'd lost the confidence that we could do these things for ourselves. And you had half a dozen big trade union leaders that ran the country. You know, the lights went out. The lights went out.

Heath called an election on who governs Britain. The people said, not you, mate, the unions. I mean, pretty much. There were also suspicions that leading union figures were pretty much hand in glove with the Kremlin, which subsequently turned out to be true. Doesn't surprise me, believe me. No, it turned out to be true.

But in 1978-9, the winter of discontent, the thing has got so bad that there was a chance for a new radical agenda to try and reform that to get the relationship right between the employer and the employee. and that probably more than any other factor led to the great economic growth and success the country enjoyed from the mid-80s onwards.

Things sometimes have to get worse before they can get better. And I'm a brokenist. I think everything's broken. I don't think anything works here at all. And I think things are going to get a lot, lot worse in terms of public trust and confidence in the system, in the institutions.

as they are. So I do as, you know, and I've hinted a couple of times today in our conversation. I, you know, I'm looking at a, could be shorter, could be longer, but I'm looking at a sort of a three-year framework in which thinking starts to change, you know, really across the board. I've noticed something interesting, Nigel, and it's not just in the UK, but more broadly, I think a lot of us who've spent quite a lot of time pushing back or complaining or saying this is wrong or woke people or this is going on wrong with our culture. A lot of people are now starting to ask the question of what is our positive vision? What are we

offering people? You know. Well, you know, I know a lot about this because contrary to popular myth, the UKIP revolt wasn't a protest vote. UKitt was not just angry pensioners. But that's how the BBC wanted to portray.

Actually, when you polled UKIP voters, they voted UKIP because they agreed with the positive policy solutions, you know, such as leaving the European Union getting back the ability to make our own laws, run our own country, on borders. Not having an open door to parts of Europe, but actually having a global approach, with a proper point system.

Sadly, what that's meant is they've lowered all the standards so virtually anyone can come now. So, no, you're right. We have to offer positive alternative visions. I mean, number one is how we deal with a disconnect between Westminster and the country, and I think a change in the voting system starts to do that. Number two, the House of Lords is an abomination full of absolutely nobodies who sit there for the Liberal Democrats. I mean, God knows one.

They've got 104 members of the House of Lords. And this is the upper chamber. I mean, listen to their debates, they're even more out of touch on these issues with the centre of gravity of the country than the House of Commons is. So an updating of our institutions to get different voices heard and a different influence there

is at least a beginning of the process. You have to change the national debate. You have to change the national media debate as well with it before you can start to move on. I think that's really, really important. And philosophically, the case for us to make, and this won't be easy, but the case for us to make is that the individual matters. That we're not just all part of some great big collective, that the state somehow owns us. I mean, Boris Johnson telling us, oh, it's okay, this year you can have Christmas with your family.

Well, I won't say what I was going to say. How's it his freedom decision to decide what I can or can't do? So I think there is something here around the individual. Yes. That we are people. We choose our units, whether it's partners, wives, husbands, families, communities, churches, whatever we choose.

But kind of we're being looked upon. It's as if that relationship between the governors and the governed has been reversed. It's the price you pay for welfareism because if I'm paying for you, then I get to tell you what to do.

That's exactly right. And that now extends, you know, all the way through. People may say it doesn't matter, but ANPR, you know. And one that I'm very heavily involved with, And as you know, I do stuff on the financial services side as well, trying to help ordinary folk understand what's going on.

Last week, the Treasury, we're advertising jobs to work in a central bank digital currency department. Do not underestimate this. Tell us more. Tell us more. Tell us what that, because we don't know anything about it. What is it? Why are you concerned about it? We know digital currencies exist. We know you've got Bitcoin.

Ethereum and thousands of others, and they're incredibly volatile, and some people have made millions, and some have lost their shirts, and we've had big bankruptcies, but these things still exist. A central bank digital currency would mean a cashless society. We would not carry any cash. Now, actually, the pandemic was used to try and stop us using cash. I agree. In many, many cases, unless, of course, you visit a so-called Turkish barbers,

but that's another story, where it's cash only. still. Central bank digital currencies, you know, would mean that every payment into our accounts or out of our accounts would be monitored, would be controlled. The state would have total supervision of the entirety of our economic activity. Nigel, people will say, isn't that what happens already, though? No, because you can still spend things on cash. The rest of the, you know, I mean, they are not completely in control of our lives. Now, they are far too much. Yes, I'd agree with you. Why should I, as a law-abiding citizen, be fearful of government knowing every single

financial transaction that I do? Because after all, if I'm law-abiding, I'm nothing to fear. Unless, of course, you live in Canada and you're a trucker. And unless you've had about 14 coronavirus jabs, at least one a fortnight. That's what Tony Blair wants for us, for the way. Do you see that the other day? Yes, I did. Yeah, Tony Blair saying, all the jab,

to come. Well, I mean, I feel like a eukipper in caricature. And these people were having their right to work, taken away from them for no good medical reason, and they staged the truck as protest in Canada. What happened to them? Government put pressure. Their bank accounts were closed and frozen. Under Central Bank digital currencies, they could have flipped a switch and done it. You are giving government total control over your life. And, you know, we've learnt just this weekend that Brigade 77, counterintelligence army group, weren't even working with the security services, working with the DCMS.

I mean, unbelievable that these Muppet government ministers actually had people spying on journalists, political figures, commentators who did not accept that lockdown was good for you, who questioned the model that Professor Ferguson, when he wasn't running his girlfriend's flat, was putting out to us. So that's the reason why we should fear. Central bank digital currencies are the ultimate form of very, very big government.

And we are beginning to move in that direction. And that is something that needs to be fought and fought very, very hard. It's why, actually, I believe, and you can read the FT and you can listen to all the establishment media, all of whom will tell you that cryptocurrency are a scam, a can't, a Ponzi scheme.

I promise you one thing, they are here to stay. And if we move towards CBDCs, I'll try and do as much of my transactions, buying and selling cars, whatever it is. I'll try and do it on crypto. So you've... That's... You see, that's the reason we haven't looked into it, Nigel,

because we saw the way things shifted during the pandemic. I saw the way they subtly tried to eliminate cash. And then there's now that brands like Protamonjay simply don't accept cash. Yep. Do you think, look, and it's going to sound like a conspiracy theorist. Do you think that these... There's no conspiracy theory. I'm telling you what's happening.

I'm telling you exactly what's happening. A hundred governments around the world have had an open debate about whether CBDCs are the way forward. That's where we're going. And how do you see it being implemented? Do you see it being implemented in five, ten, ten, fifteen years? Oh, it's obviously going to obviously take time to do something like this, but it tells you everything you need to know about our political class,

about the media class that back them up, about the whole philosophical debate that the three of us are having sitting here today. You know, we're saying some, it's gone wrong with our politics. I think the fact there is no outcry about those Treasury adverts last week, no questions in Parliament, no one debating. this shows you just how badly wrong these things have gone. I do not get even. I'm a pragmatist. I'm a former businessman that got involved in politics. I haven't got time for ranting conspiracy theories. I do believe in asking questions. But these are the directions that the West is going in.

Increase welfareism, increased tax, reduction of choice, infringement on free speech, and ultimately total control of our lives. Well, you mentioned total control, Nigel, and from mentions conspiracies. And one of the big things that a lot of people are now talking about is Davos, Klaus Schwab, globalism. And to some people, it's a, you know, some kind of cabal of pido lizards, whatever is the crazy. Is it? Yeah. I listen to David. No, sorry.

And there are other people much more reasonable, I think, who go, look, this is an assembly of powerful people who have a particular vision and their religion is clearly climate alarmism. That's what they're about. That's the number one thing. Now. For now that that's what they stand for. And of course, it's a global problem, which requires global solution. One center of power, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Forget national sovereignty, et cetera. So, and then you see, you mentioned Tony Blair, you know, we need to track everyone's vaccine status everywhere at all times forever for the rest of eternity. What do you make, is that who you mean by globalists when you use that term? Is that the people or who are these globalists? And what are they up to? It's a mistake to think that Klaus Schwab is the man stroking the white cat, you know, who is the evil genius.

I mean, he looks like a bloke. You can do with a white cat, really. Just needs a scar. No, I mean, look, hey, you know, we've had the Bilderberg group. We've got the WVEF. I spent over 20 years working in Brussels, which is the epicenter of the globalist. project. And it's that coming together of big government, big business, big banks, and now big tech.

It is the common shared interest of all of those people. It is that it is, and you say climate change is their motivation. Their real motivation is money, money and control, power and control. And, you know, the truth of it is, The more you have globalised standards, the less opportunity there is for the individual, and I'm back to that word again, because I think it's very important, to design new products, to come into a market, to be a market challenger. You know, it's why you finish up.

I mean, frankly, if I'm Deutsche Bank or Goldman Sachs, I want the city of London to be as regulated as possible. I want more and more and more law. And I loved it in Europe because I could just brief the bloke at the European Commission and he'd write the legislation and then the parliament understood it anyway. And the more regulation there is

in a business environment, the more costs there are, legal costs, compliance costs, etc. The barriers to entry for new ideas and new participants are such that no one can. and I mean America's got this problem

you can go to shopping malls in any of the states and see exactly the same shops yes absolutely no challenges no small businesses so some will argue

that's the way the world's going you can't do anything about it I don't agree with that I think of course we value international trade and global trade and all these things things. But I think for me, one of the opportunities of Brexit, real opportunities of Brexit, was for us to have the opportunity to become so much more entrepreneurial than the rest of Europe. And that means getting rid of some of those barriers. Now, of course, since you're trying

to do that, oh, he wants to change employment legislation, it's a return to slavery. Or, you know, well, no, but that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that, that, that's, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, so, we can't, we can't, we can't lay all at the door of Klaus Schwab, although interesting, isn't it? Mr Blair clearly wants that job. I mean, that was a pitch for that job. But that is what we're up against. And you know, you asked earlier about how Westminster's has become so detached, because these are the influences on them. And Nigel, you would know more than anyone about the European Union. And I'm looking at the European Union. I voted Remain. But I look at the European Union. But I look at the European Union.

as a project long term. And I think it's doomed economically. I think the euro is a ridiculous idea. It's a utopian idea. The whole thing seems to me like a utopian project. All the southern European states seem like zombie nations and perpetual recession with a brain. So sad.

You know, what's happened to the Greek people? What's happening to the Italian people? It's very sad. So what is the future for the EU? What do you think will happen in five, ten years and long term as well? Well, I mean, you know, all the EU is really is an updated form of communism that uses big businesses as their friends. You know, they accept the state can't do everything.

They need to have commercial actors that operate with them to do this. Look, it will not survive, but it is an enormously powerful institution. It's grip. It's grip. It's over the levers of politics and media of, big tech, which we just can't ignore any of this these days. It's huge. And any politician that dares to stand up and say we should leave it

is in for a very unhappy life. You know, is he, no one else does? No. If you look around Europe, Maloney, all the others, they'll talk about changing direction, about slowing down the speed of integration, but no one dares to actually take them on. I did it.

Oh, it must be bad. No, but look, ultimately in the end, it isn't going to work. It isn't going to work. In the end, it'll be the economics that unravels it. In the end, it'll be Italy. That just says, you know what, we cannot put up. We're getting poorer and poorer and poorer every year. We cannot go on being stuck in a German-dominated currency.

As to when, that happens, I can't tell you, but it won't survive. You know when you were talking about increasing regulation and raising the barriers to entry? One of the things that shows the reverse of that is what's happened with the media. If you think about this, this is the exact, you know, 10 years ago, if you wanted to start some kind of media organization, you needed a million quid. Right now you need two cameras and a couple of microphones. So I suppose as long as big tech can be kept within line. Well, that's all well and good.

Yeah. That's all well. And you've had a big recent hit from the Oxford Union and well done you. as well I had in 2010 with Herman Van Rumpy Pumpy Rumpoy. But here's the thing. This episode is brought to you

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whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Watch remarkably bright creatures with your remarkable months this Mother's Day weekend, only on Netflix May 8th. My political career would never have taken UKIP beyond being, you know, a minor party. I'd never have got beyond minor party status without YouTube. Would never have happened. Never have happened.

Got a cat's chance in hell. How could I reach that? You know, if the BBC won't put you on the news, how can you reach that number of people? happened with me was sort of 2008 onwards, YouTube was there. I remember that ghastly man, Giva Hofstadt in the European Parliament, standing up once saying, Mr Farage, he comes here. He's not speaking to us. He's speaking to a YouTube audience.

I said, yep, it's a fair cop-guff. And Trump's the same. For Trump, the tool of choice was Twitter, through which he absolutely dominated the national and international conversation. And so what happened was mainstream media reflected what I did, and even bigger way, reflected what Trump did. That was all well and good. And so the creators of this new innovative technology

suddenly realized the consequences of what it is that they created, namely that the peasants could actually have a say against their mates in the capital cities and that's why we saw that period of that period of people being banned and shadow banned and counterband and sometimes by the way justifiably. You know, there are things that are said

that are outright vile or insightful that are not within the realms of what's acceptable as free speech but an awful lot of stuff that got shadow banned was perfectly fair and reasonable comment. I mean, Facebook for me if people like and try and share my Facebook stuff, they get suspended. It's happened again and again and again. So my stuff they'll take just, but anyone tries to propagate my stuff,

they're stopped from doing it, you know, suspended for 48 hours or whatever it is. So we've seen the growth of Getter and one or two other new challenges to the market. We've now got, obviously, Elon Musk that's coming with Twitter, who was playing an heroic role. So, yes, provided there's enough free space in tech, your point holds, but there are dangers. Well, we've got to, it's an opportunity to change the culture, and I think that's where all this other revolution that you talk about comes in. Nigel, we've mapped out a lot of problems, I think, and also some of the solutions, too. And I think this message about the sanctity of the individual, the importance of people having the opportunity to start a business and not be taxed massively and whatever, that's all very important.

But let's say by some magical transformation, the country was different, and you were Prime Minister, what would you do? What would be your top five priorities? We'll have a dream to celebrate. Obviously. Oh, I think we have to try and restore some faith and trust in politics and stop lying to people. Ritchie Soonak sent an email out last night to Conservative Party members on the third anniversary of the day we left the European Union. So we've got Brexit done. Number one, we've taken back control of our borders. But that is just a lie.

Correct. I mean, just outright lie. So number one, you've got to restore some trust. And you can only do that by just being a bit franker with people. So number one, be a bit more frank with people. You know, we got this right, we got this wrong. Hey, you know what? It's life.

We're doing our best. I think so. I think restoring, trying to restore some faith and that connection, that belief that you're elected on a set of proposals. And you're going to do your damnedest to try and keep the promises that you better. That's the first thing you've absolutely got to do. The second thing that you've got to do is you absolutely have to find a way where people can get GP appointments. It's so fundamental. Every age, it's so fundamental.

So you need a very, very rapid thought process as to how we can do that. Now, longer term, obviously one of the big problems we have is not training enough of our own people and relying on immigrant labor the whole time. Short term, we're doctors. We may need to take more from the rest of the world to try and solve this problem. But that, again, will be part of restoring that trust. Number three, fundamental look at the tax system.

You know, you go back through the history of mankind. You can find many of the good periods and bad periods. Many of the periods of war and peace have actually been caused by taxes, being injudicious or being well thought through. and I think restoring some form of incentive to people. I think it's really, really important, reducing the tax burden. The fourth thing is, ha-ha.

People won't like this very much. But we can't go on paying you more to sit at home, claiming a whole range of benefits than we can if you go to work. And I'm afraid that welfare is going to have to be cut. Now that, of course, can you imagine the protests? But I'm afraid we've got to grasp that natal that ultimately welfareism is making people sicker

It isn't making them better in very, very large numbers and that's an incredibly hard thing to do incredibly hard thing to do it's as hard as what Thatcher had to face in 79 It's as hard as that And number five

I mean you've asked me this off the cuff But number five I think in a very uncertain certain world, I think a really good thing about our military forces. There are some great threats out there in the world. China, Russia, things we don't know about. I think the extent to which we've run down our national defenses in this country over the course of the last 12 years is utterly shameful.

We live in a very uncertain world. Look at the things that have happened. Just in the last five years, things that have happened. So there you go. Nigel, as always, an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. The final question that we always end our interviews with is what's the one thing we're not talking about

that we really should be? The brain drain. It's happening. For the first times, it's 978, 79. Young, entrepreneurial, good people are leaving the country in large numbers. They're going. The official figures

will track how many high net worth individuals that you know, how many billionaires leave. What you can't measure are the number of 31-year-olds who've got tech businesses who are really worried about the tax of regulatory burden and who say when they pay their tax, look where it's going, it's not helping anybody. They go into Portugal in big numbers.

They're going to Milan in sizable numbers. They're going to Australia, as they've always done. We are losing, once again, some of our brightest and best people, and nobody wants to acknowledge it or even comment on it. It's happening. It needs to be stopped. Nigel Faris, thank you so much. We've got a couple of questions that our audience have submitted,

that only they will get to see in a second. But for now, thank you, and thank you for watching and listening. We'll be back very soon. With another brilliant episode like this one, or also all of them go out at 7pm UK time. And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's always available as a podcast. Take care and see you soon, guys.

Labor government seems inevitable, as you've already alluded to. Where do you think they will take the relationship with the EU?