TRIGGERnometry - Nimco Ali on Being the Chief Fanny Defender and Woke Racism

Episode Date: December 29, 2019

Activist and writer Nimco Ali @NimkoAli sits with Francis and Konstantin to talk FGM and Woke Racism Thank you to Daniel Toomes for additional editing support - check out his graphic design work at www.danieltoomes.com  Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissing. And this is a show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about. At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts. We ask the experts. Our brilliant guest this week is a writer and activist, Nimca Ali. Welcome to Trigonometry. Hi, thank you for having me. Thanks for coming on. Listen, before we get into the interview itself, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, you're obviously very well known for your work on FGM and we'll get into that. Yeah. But just tell us who I.

you, how are you where you are, what has brought you to this chair where you said, no, other than the Uber you just got out of. Other than the Uber that I just got out of and you sending me a message on Twitter. So yeah, I'm an anti-FGM activist and ultimately I think the trajectory of my career changed when I realized that my silence was very much complicit to the misunderstanding of a form of violence that I was subjected to when I was seven. So I went to university. I'm actually qualified.

I did do law, but I also spent most of my time talking about the female anatomy. me. So I call myself I call myself the chief final defender so that's what I do. I basically just sit around and politically and socially work towards ending a specific form of violence. And we'll get into that as I said later on and into you. One of the reasons we wanted

to have you on is obviously to talk about that because it's an important issue on Francis, you know, you're a former teacher. You had some experiences with that, right? Yeah, I used to work in Newham. Okay. Yeah, so I've seen I never saw it happen. or whatever, of course not, but I saw girls disappear. Yeah.

And then come back a few months later and the change. And obviously we never knew. Yeah. Because we'll get into that about how nobody's ever been prosecuted or charged with it. No, there has been a successful prosecution, but the CPS who are the bane of every woman's life, have just actually decided to update their guidance to kind of make it easier for people to get away with FGM. But there was a successful prosecution this year.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Because the last time I checked, when I went to training a couple of years ago, they were saying that nobody had ever. Yeah, so they've never had a success. So they had quite a few prosecutions this and last year. And then in April, there was a woman, ironically, from Walthamstow, so around that kind of area that was sentenced for performing FGM on her three-year-old child.

You know what? We've got into it now. You've got to get into it. No, I'm sorry. No, no. It's not my fault. It's my fault. Because when you were saying, oh, we'll talk about it at the end,

Since the age of seven, FGM has been the fundamental thing that has actually shaped my reality and also shaped my political view. So in terms of even like the way that I talk and what I do, a lot of that has been fundamentally around the way that I was misunderstood as somebody that came from a community that was affected by FGM. But then also I was more than that. So yeah, it's a it's a core part of it. No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. not that you are the enemy of course look it's a very contentious issue it's a very difficult issue for a lot of people

it's something that I also think there's a lot of misconceptions about so just just to start us off by explaining to people who may not know anything about it what is FGM female genital mutilation a lot of people think oh it's a bit like circumcision everybody does it

it's a different culture some people think it's to do with Islam which like just debunk a few of those things for us. So basically the fundamental and the core thing is that FGM is injury or damage or removal of any of the female anatomy for non-medical reasoning.

And I think that is the key thing. It's the fact that it's for non-medical reasons. And a lot of people want to kind of put culture, I want to put faith and all these things in there, but it's a form of violence. And one of the key things that I was saying about why the CPS is new definition of saying that if it's done in a

hospital and women of a certain age, then the consent can really apply to that, it's a form of GBAH. It's like when we talk about mutilation, it's the body being trained from its natural settings for no reason at all. And we would not accept that if you said to me right now, do you know what, I consent you to chop off my hands, I would get arrested because that's GBAH, that's a corrosion of society that if we are starting to give people consent to cause massive damage. But when it comes to the female anatomy and the women's bodies, we are constantly talking about as though that there's no kind of influence on doing these things.

I'm telling you, no girl will ever walk, wake up and say, do you know what, I'm really not happy with my anatomy. I want it to be cut. And I remember watching an episode of the Playgirls, the play. Anyways, it was, what was the guy? Hugh Hefner. Yeah, Hugh Hefner's, Hugh Hefner had a show on the E-Channel. I was quite young.

I was watching this show. And the Playboy Bonnies or the girlfriends he had, again, that was a form of abuse, the fact that heligamy is like fucking ridiculous. But they were talking about labioplasty, which is like cosmetic surgery on the female anatomy. And then my mom was like, but why would they do that to themselves? And I said, but why would you do FGM to yourself, Mama? Why would you do FGM to girls like me? And it's this whole idea of the fact that but that's my culture or I've basically chosen to do this.

The patriarchy is powerful. And what we do is the more we empower women, the more it comes back in other places. So FGM is literally like, you know, any damage to the female anatomy. It doesn't matter whether you're three years old or whether you're like 25. There's no medical reasons for it. And all of it legitimizes other forms of abuse to women. So what you're saying is incredibly enlightening. Then it begs the question, why do it?

Why do some cultures have FGM? So it's because it's every single woman in my family until about the 2000. and five had been cut, had undergone FGM. So there was this assumption, and that's what it was like to be a Somali woman. And culture is a weird thing, which we're all gripped in. Like, you know, if the way that I'm dressed today, or the way that you're dressed or what you think,

or what you believe in, are all informed by the way that we're raised and the people that were around. And if you don't have anybody else telling you that you shouldn't be doing this, then you're just keep, and then you're going to keep doing it. And you're going to make it as a fundamental thing to who makes you who you are.

And to take something like FGM away that's basically being what my grandmother, my great-grandmother, my mother, everybody had. And for me to say, but it's really stupid, like, why are we doing this? That is judging people, that is like, you know, shaking people's real core values. And for me, I never knew FGM was abuse. I just thought, I knew it was painful and I just knew it was really stupid. And asking questions as to, but why are you doing it? Or to my non-Somali community and friends saying to my teachers, like, why is this happening to me?

And people having no answers around it made me, really understand that actually this was something that nobody understood and they were doing it because they were scared of not doing it. And then my teachers who were all English were scared of intervening because they didn't know what was actually going on. So a lot of it is all about control and the patriarchy will enforce things on women in order to keep them down. So yeah, it just, like why does anything happen? Any of the things that we want to kind of evolve and change is because some evil people are benefiting from it. I'm guessing the question people might ask, you know, circumcision, the male circumcision exists. It's obviously a different thing and it's

much less invasive and whatever. But, you know, some of the arguments for Jewish people, like some of my ancestors and Arabic people living in the desert, the argument was that it's about hygiene if you get dirt and sand stuck under your foreskin. Yeah, 4,000 years ago. Yeah, no, sorry, 1,400,000 years ago. But this is like, so I said to one of my friends once, why are you circumcising your child? She's like, it's more hygienic, I said, but there's soap and water. and she's like for sex I'm like he's eight days old why are we thinking about

who he's having sex with and I always think and I'm going to get a lot of this is I think this is the thing that can unite like you know the Middle East Boat tuition Muslim is around male circumcision and I'm going to get a lot of shit for this

but ultimately if you took out religion and said like why you cut in healthy tissue of a young baby boy who you just would immunize in a few days not to get like you know tetanors and all these other kind of things and then you say well a few thousand years ago

this man was hallucinating. He was a prophet though. Let me tell you, this was a man that God was speaking to. God was speaking to him. God said to him, murder your first child. And then he said, actually, I'm not going to do that. And then he was so obedient that God changed the son into a lamb. And to be so grateful, he pulled his penis out and cut some skin off it. That's why. That's why 4,000 years later, I'm doing this to my child in Crouchend. Yeah. No, I agree. I guess you mentioned the patriarchy several times, and I was just thinking like it happens to boys as well. That probably wasn't the patriarchy. It was what people 4,000 years ago in the desert believed, right? No, but the thing about, so the difference,

so the fundamental difference between male circumcision and FGM. So one, I don't support any four-surgery and children, but ultimately what happens is that FGM, where FGM is prominent and where FGM is practiced, there is like, you know, other forms of gender-based violence, when men have their foreskin roof, they get the keys to the kingdom, They're not being forced to be married.

They're not being stopped from going to certain employment. They're not being segregated. So they're not being forced to wear the burqa. Or there's several other things that happen as a result of where FGM is evidence. So the life consequences physically as well. Physicality is another thing as well. Even the least invasive form of FGM, which is the unhuding or a clitor dectomy moving the external parts of the clitoris,

on a male organ would mean like removing almost like the total penis. So the physical impacts are different, the social and emotional impacts that happen are different as well. So I think that's the fundamental thing. It's like how the society is structured. And to be fair, there is a little bit of male ego involved in male circumcision that fathers always want their sons to look like them. That's one of the main reasons why a lot of, like, you know, a lot of, and also Jewish and Muslim mothers want, like, you know, other women to be very proud of what their babies, penis looks like. think it's really weird. When you really listen to it.

It's pretty fucking weird. It's like, why are we talking about, like, this is quite pedophilic. It's like, we're all standing here, standing around a baby's penis. It's a bit weird. Like, take religion out of it. It's very weird.

And FGM, from what I got told, and please correct me if this is wrong, a large part of it is control over women and their pleasure of having sex. Well, it's more about control over women and, like, you know, ownership. So pleasure, so I wrote a book, recently called things we're taught not to talk about

but we're going to anyway and at the heart of that was the conversation around the female orgasm. Nobody ever talks about female pleasure. So female pleasure is always seen as a bonus not as a right in terms of sexual relationships. Not in my house. Impowered women. Impowered women have orgasms. That's why the world also shut us down.

In my house it gets talked about all the time. Yeah, if anything, she's too empowered, Mike. See, and I think that's, like, you know, that is fundamentally the thing is the fact that it's not, like, you know, it's not about control, but it's the whole thing of like, well, obviously the reason why you can't have an orgasm is because of the fact that you've been mutilated.

It's not, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, when a lot of those women don't even have any choice over the men that they marry. So, technically, if you're being forced to sleep with somebody every night, it's rape, because you never chose to marry him and to be in that relationship. So there is an element of controlling about the idlenesship of sexual pleasure, as opposed to control.

So, like, sexual pleasure only sits within the male, um, um, like a member of the relationship. So the idea of removing the culture is that there's no need for you to be sexually pleased. You're only there to have children. Right. I was going to ask,

you mentioned culture and religion. And there was a couple of things that I asked you at the top. I just want to clarify. So for anyone who doesn't know, first of all, where is FGM normally practiced? So you're from Somaliland yourself.

Yeah. Is it mainly Africa? Is it beyond that? Where are the regions where this is part of the local culture? In terms of the largest number of countries on a continent, Africa is the largest, because there's 28 countries that have more than a 40% uptake of FGM. There's like Indonesia and parts of India.

And I would actually classify Harley Street for procedures called cosmetic surgery on the female anatomy as FGM. So it's a global issue in terms of how we define it, whether it's a razor, or whether it's happening in a hut or in a hospital, it's all exactly the same. but ultimately in places where Ethiopia for example where it has like Christians, Jews, Muslims and non

people of the book religions FGM is practiced there so by even by Jews and by Christians really so it's a cultural issue so therefore it's an Ethiopian thing so Ethiopia has an FGM issue so yeah

and also it predates all the kind of all the Abrahamic religions so it's 4,000 years old, so it's like, and it was well before Muhammad, well before Moses and well before Christ as well. Because that's one of the big, I think, misunderstanding.

Certainly in this country, when people talk about it, I think a lot of people think that it's a Muslim tradition. Because of the fact that we've called the circumcision and then what happened was so the terminology was female circumcision, which is wrong because it's FGM, and then what happened

was that the circumcision is only within the Jewish community or within the Muslim community and because there was no evidence within the Jewish community of FGM, then people assume because it was called circumcision, it must come from a Muslim background. So I'm just going to get, got like bad asthma.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it must have just come from a Muslim background, but it doesn't, like, you know, I've known people from all faiths and no faiths that have actually practiced FGM. It's a bit like rape and domestic violence. I don't know, it crosses the theories of the books. And what are the long-term health implications for, if, these women who have had this procedure? I think the main thing is death.

It's not like the like the like you know, FGM can kill and we always say survivors of FGM. So there are millions of women and girls who haven't survived. And then I think the complications go into dependence on the physicality of the FGM that you had. So I had a really invasive form of FGM. And when I was 11, my kidneys almost failed and I almost died. So type 3, which is infibulation, which is more common in Egypt, Somal and Sudan. Somalia in all those places is where they basically stitch the female anatomy together. And that means that if these girls are being cut as young as seven like I was,

you're going into puberty with no ability to menstruate, like, you know, healthfully, urinate freely. And also if you do have sex, like getting penetrated through like some raw, like, you know, some, like, you know, scar tissue. It's going to be extremely painful. And then pregnancy. So there are massive complications that kind of come into it. but I think the social and the psychological impacts of FGM are fundamental where you're subjecting something so horrific and brutal and needless to a child and that will have lifelong complications and I think we have had this view of not of never assuming what the emotional

consequences could be all the emotional like you know the feelings that African women have we never talk about so we know Africa many of countries in Africa have been at war for for decades but we never talk about the realities of what, like, you know, what it means to be a woman in Africa living with such brutality. We just assume that it's a physical act that we're going to ultimately just fix. So for me, I think the emotional psychological issues are more fundamental than the physicality ones which we focus on. And do you think we're doing enough in this country to deal with it in these particular communities

or are, you know, the powers that be sensitive about dealing because of accusing of being intolerance of being racist of all the rest of it. Actually, sorry, before you answer that question, which is a great question. Can you tell us how prominent it is in the UK? So within the UK, there are 137,000 women

that are living with the consequences of FGM. Wow. And in 2000, and in just about, I think it was about five, five, six years ago when we did some data, one in ten birth since Sothek was born

to a woman who had FGM. I know, so it's a massive issue. It's a huge issue. It's a huge issue. But then again, it also shows you that who are having babies within the country at the moment. It's like the large families are within families with FGM and all these things are practiced because of poverty and the fact that women don't have any control over their bodies. So obviously these women are constantly giving birth, which is another kind of massive issue that we should be talking about. So come back to Francis's question now, part of which was, why is it that do you think we're doing enough, number one?

and also why is it that we may be reluctant to talk about it? I think we are. So since the coalition government came in in 2010, there has a lot has changed. And weirdly enough on Tuesday, I was with four Secretary of State. So Pritipater of the Home Office, Gavin Williamson, education,

Matt Hancock, Health, and then another Rob, I forget saying, from communities. And all four Secretary of State were committed to talking about FGM. So there is incredible things that are happening. And I do think that, I do know that a girl, so my niece is eight years old now, she is 100% safer from FGM than I could have ever been when I was her age. And there are, like, you know, things that have been put in place in order to make sure that her rights are respected.

But ultimately, those people that want to continue FGM will keep pushing. And I think the decision that I was talking about the CPS today is, problematic because at this moment in time there are people in Kenya who are trying to revoke the law against FGM saying, well, fine, ban FGM for children, but let women have choices around this issue. And there is like this idea of choice doesn't actually like, you know, exists. And I think we have to understand the commonality of what does legislation and what does protecting civil rights and protecting human rights of women really mean. And that means that certain things are just unacceptable. We don't have like, you know, you can't say, well, if I consent to being,

beaten by my husband then that's fine. We understand that that's coercion and there's abuse and there's grooming within those issues. We don't accept that if you've been in a relationship where rape and domestic violence has happened that even though you've stated, there's some kind of consent given. So we have to understand that there is no consent when it comes to a form of violence against women and girls. And for me, I find that really problematic when people try to intellectualize saying, well, well, it's not like this girl in Africa that's being held down. I said actually at least you can see the horrors of that girl fighting back for you to willingly walk into a clinic and be subjected to the same act of violence that I was and consume that as empowering.

I think that's more problematic for me. And that is the kind of conversations that we need to be having, that it doesn't matter. And also, the FGM legislation is ridiculous here. It says, girls shall include women, and FGM should not be allowed for cultural reasoning. And then the culture is defined as the 20 African countries. So if I go to Harley Street and say I'm Caribbean and I want type 1 FGM, that's fine. If I say I'm Somali and I want type 1 FGM, I don't have any concept of choice. So then I'm stopped from having that.

That is how the legislation sits at the moment, that black women from African heritage can't make choices but other women can. It's a very weird thing, particularly with the trans conversations happening now, isn't it? Because a trans person can say, well, I identify as different gender. and therefore I want surgery. But that's a medical necessity. And I think you have to have like medical. So like the whole idea of cancer. So there is, it's just a bit like abortion.

Abortion is not actually a right here in the UK. You have a legitimate defense to asking for an abortion because two doctors define it to be medically necessary for your physical or emotional well-being. I think a lot of people forget that saying of the fact that the abortion act is a defense to the act of abortion as opposed to a right to have an abortion. And that's what, there is that caveat that's built into the FGM legislation where if you need this, so if, for example, I had, like, you know, vulva cancer or all these things, there will be a need to mutilate my anatomy to save my life.

If I had, like, you know, if I was going through gender reassignment, there would be a medical and a psychological need to mutilate my anatomy. It doesn't take away from the fact that what's happening to you is an act of FGM, but there's a legitimate legal reason for that. And that's what people just don't understand. But to go in and say, oh, I just don't like my flaps. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right.

Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being, rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers. You're spending a third of your life on the thing. and most people have no idea what's actually in it. Avocado green mattress is different. Their mattresses are certified organic, built from natural materials,

designed to actually support your body properly rather than just hold you in one position until morning. The craftsmanship is real. These are mass-produced objects. Someone has put thought into them. I'll be honest. I'm not the person who thinks carefully about where he sleeps. My dating history will tell you that.

I'm the person who's been on the same mattress for eight years and called it, fine. But the older I get, the more I notice that fine isn't actually fine. Your body tells you, if you're going to invest in anything for your home, your bed is the one that pays you back every single night. Avicado products are made, not manufactured, and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort and support. Go to avocado greenmattress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger.

Well, I've never done that. That's what I mean. That's basically that's what the CPN is fucking saying. It's the fact that you can just walk into it. I just don't like my flaps. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely.

And when these girls and young girls, I mean, how does it, I got told that a lot of, the time they, you know, they got taken back to places like Somalia or these countries and then the operations happened there and then they got brought back. Is it happening in, are there people doing this sort of a back street like an abortion? So there are, there was evidence when I was growing up in the 80s and the early 19th that was happening here in the UK but now parents are taking their girls away because at least that way when you're kind of trying to groom and

brainwash them into the whole idea, you're kind of taking them back to a culture which they've longed So therefore, therefore they assume this is part of that. So a lot of the FGM is now extraterritorial, and that's why the 2003 legislation made it illegal for the girls to be taken out of the UK to be cut. But then there are women that are turning up at clinics or FGM, not in giving birth, who haven't left the country, who've been re-infibrillated. Again, stitching women back up because what happens is a lot of these women, some of them might come to join husbands here.

The FGM has happened before they've been. became a British resident, but therefore the FGM is something still the energy has to deal with. That woman is de-infibrillated, so basically her anatomy is opened up in order to give birth. And then she comes back again with similar issues that she had before, meaning that FGM has happened somewhere here in the UK. But ultimately, there are people, the last case which was unsuccessful, was a 16-year-old girl whose anatomy had shown up as being injured. and being mutilated, but the court just didn't believe

that her father, who she said, well, that was the person who initiated the FGM and was sanctioned. It was the person that did that. But that girl still was mutilated here in the UK. So there's this weird thing. It still happens, yeah.

In the UK. It didn't happen. It still happens, yeah. Well, let's look at some of the broader issues around this and many other things that you've talked and written about. One of the things I think, Francis, you brought up earlier,

was this idea that there's a kind of cultural relativism that happens with things. So, oh, it's just their culture. You know, this is how they do things. You know, just let them do their thing. Who are we to tell people in Somalia how to live their life, right?

That's an argument that comes from a certain section, particularly, I think, of the left. Yeah. What do you make of that? Well, it's bullshit. It's just basically, like, you know, throwing you to the wolf. So it's like, well, Limcault, that's fine. You're like, love you.

You should be really British, but let's just like, you know, let's just protect your human rights. Sorry. And I think that's one of the things. where in April we had FGM added to the Children's Act where it was before. So like there's like if a social worker, a teacher, other people are concerned that a child could be in danger or neglect. It was basically the like the ability to get a protection order was there.

But FGM was an added. So it was you had to prove the level of negligence or harm that was going to be caused to the child. But if these families, so like there are no there are no other. indicators of abuse within a lot of these families. So that's what people say, I'm loving family. So these kids are well-fed. They're, like, you know, they're clean.

They're not turning up at school, like, you know, late. They're basically in what looks like decent families, which my family would look like from the outside, as opposed to just being an FGM practicing community. So there's no triggers for social services or other people to get a protection order or to limit the parental rights of these parents. parents. And FGM needed to be added to that because what these social workers and people

were saying, yes, I know she's cleanly dress, she's being fed, but there's a risk of FGM. And that just wasn't in the children's act. So we ended up, so there was an incredible member of the House of Lords who, like, you know, flagged this up. It came through. It was sponsored by two conservative MPs. And then just on the second reading, that great fucker, Christopher Choaps, objected to it. while we were virtue signaling. And it's really interesting. The left who are so woke and these and some of the like, you know, really old school, like, you know,

I want to be like, you know, having black people bring me food and stuff like that. Like, you know, on the right are very similar. I want to bring the empire back to a certain, very similar in this sense of like, let's keep the culture. We shouldn't intervene. He objected and thankfully the government. and gave a time and overruled and like, you know, overruled him. But what was really interesting was the conversation that was having with people. And there's this key thing where everybody says,

let me play the devil's advocate. I'm like, the devil doesn't need a fucking advocate. Like, have you not read everything that's in the Quran and the Torah and the Bible and everything else? Like, you know, the devil doesn't need anybody to advocate on his side. But they went, let me play the devil advocate. Like, you know, why should we intervene? And I said, it's really interesting that if there was evidence of your daughter, so it's this white guy, if you were subjecting your daughter to FGM

or the idea that they even was talked about like, you know, people will come down here like a ton of bricks but if my daughter is at the same risk because she's brown which is just basically respect me before we respect her and he said, oh, I didn't really think of that. And if my daughter or a daughter, a girl that looked like me was adopted by white parents, then she's okay to be protected but not be protecting when she's behind communities

which are non-white. it's this whole thing that we're saying that the human rights of certain people have more legitimacy than others and it's not like we're not saying that these kids shouldn't be vaccinated we're saying that these kids should be protected from like you know torture which is actually defined by the UN so yeah a lot of it for me it's actually quite

it's offensive and it's hurtful and it actually shows a lot of racism in the sense that they're clearly just saying that my rights don't matter and me being subjected to to a horrific form of abuse, it's fine, because that's what savages do. They're technically, yeah, that's what savages do. Like, we don't evolve.

And Limca, do you think as well, it's a lot of it, it is racism, I agree, and a lot of it is cowardice as well. Because do you see it from the modern feminist movement where they want to, you know, tear down the patriarchy? But when it comes to an issue like FGM, which is a massive issue, and like you said, affects over 100,000 women in this country, do they want to get involved,

or they just sort of back away from it? Well, it depends. Like, you know, like, you know, radical feminism has always been quite friendly and it's kind of supported. I think one of the kind of the key interests was when I first started doing the work was the conversations around black feminism, black, working class feminism here in the UK. And I think that was very much embedded within the labour movement. And I think that's very problematic in the sense that I think you see your race before you see your gender. And for me, I've always been a woman before I was black before I was anything. Because a lot of the things that have happened to me haven't been because of my race.

It's been because of my gender. and I'm very much aware of because of the fact that I'm African and direct first generation African-born that for me I did not identify as black I did not go through a lot of the prejudice that a lot of people did and I came from a country where like you know that my privilege and my family meant that I like you know you were from a wealthy background yeah yeah so I did it so a privileged background which when we lost everything and became refugees we still had aspirations so I didn't probably struggle with identity as much as like a lot of people whose families came

came here from the Caribbean or Jew heritage, women who grew up in white working class areas who kind of was basically saw their brothers and their fathers and all these kind of thing struggles. So it was really difficult when I started talking about FGM as though it was like, oh you're basically

bringing stigma and shining the light on an already marginalised community. Like what are you doing? We should like let the white guy like you know define us because everybody like the police was seen as a white institution, the government was seen as a white institution, and me working with them both very closely

and actually really saying that, guys, you need to protect me, was seen as something as kind of a sellout. And I just thought, like, when you're in a country, I've seen countries fall apart, and fundamentally, what people want to do after you get dictatorships and all these things is to really bring back justice

and really ensure the rule of law. And I quite like the police. I would, you know, shocking revelation. Got an issue with the police officers. But that's just like, it doesn't mean that like, you know, I'm not going to complain as a taxpayer about the police system, but I don't actually walk around every day thinking that all police officers are racist

and a chip on my shoulder. Yeah, and I don't think, like, you know, that all white men are bad. So I just think that was just a weird thing for me to be saying to them as a black woman. And I was just saying it as a woman and as somebody who understood the need, you know, the need of, like, you know, the, criminal justice system to understand diversity in people like me. It's interesting that you bring up

this idea that being outspoken in this way and tackling that issue and working with the white, inverted commerce for our listeners, white police and white government or whatever, it made you kind of a bit like a traitor, I suppose, I don't know if that's the right word. And one of the reasons we wanted to talk to is we read an article that you wrote,

I think it was in Telegraph, around the time that Boris Johnson then newly minted Prime Minister, by time this goes out, who knows what his position is going to be. The man that delivers Brexit. We'll find out, right? We're recording this just on the day before the big Saturday or whatever it's called. Super Saturday.

Super Saturday. Oh, that's less like proper American, like they have this super Monday to whatever. Anyway, he appointed a cabinet that had a strong representation from different ethnic minority groups, the son of a former Pakistani bus driver, people from different communities from all around the world, black, James Cleverly you know, brown, etc. Yeah. And within an hour,

a lot of these people on the left like what's a Kerry Ann Mendoza whatever, her name from the Canary, came out. She's blocked me. She did like in a preemptive strike. I don't even who she is. She is the editor of the Canary and she came out and said that

these are not people of color. Yeah. They are tone cards of color. And this idea that a person whose skin is different has to white, has to think

exactly the same way as every other person whose skin is not white. Isn't that the most racist idea that you could have? Yeah, there was a lecturer I think she was at Cambridge or somewhere and I was like, so while she wants to intellectually masturbate over issues like FGM

and all these things that activists actually get shit done. But yeah, it is it is that whole point of the fact that privilege is a massive thing and I think I come and And the iron is that I come from the certain kinds of privileges that all these people do. But I've tried to use that privilege in order to change the world for other people. And I know, like, so Priti Patel is a Ugandan, so she's an East African Indian,

the most successful diaspora outside of the Jewish diaspora globally in the UK. So she's the most successful diaspora. And the fact that she's the home secretary says a testament to a lot of the people that came here as refugees like my parents say, actually we're not going to give up, we're going to suck it up, and we're going to make sure that our children succeed. The idea when your parents don't necessarily come from something, that they haven't lost anything, and I don't want to knock them for being like, you know, not having a lot of aspirations and then getting pissed off from people like me,

actually delivering two things. But it is offensive. It's the whole point of the fact that I've got young, I've got two, like, you know, Somali black young boys who are my cousins. They go to one of the best schools in, like, one of the best grammar schools in London in Kuwait, who in Elizabeth, they're in like, you know, Barnett. And the iron is about 90% of that school is either African or Sri Lankan. And there's a massive issue why that is,

because those people have all come from people who had to leave and be forced out by people who write the canary or read the canary and those ideas that they have. So the thing is I've seen the concept of socialism I've seen the concepts of communism And I know they don't do any favours for people like me So Well they don't have any favours for anybody I'm from Russia originally

My mother's Venezuelan So yeah But they don't definitely Don't do anything for women And they don't do anything Like specifically for women So yeah it's like I don't know

I'm not Like these people are just like ridiculous I'm not sure about I'm not offended by them And I'm not hurt by them anymore Because I think I've got enough clout now just to kind of to laugh it off but I think it does

hurt a lot of other young people who want to be able to identify in a certain political with a certain political party or have certain views and I think I was privileged enough to be able to do that I grew up under the new Labour kind of party and I am from the generation that things can only get better

and for me things can only get better under the Conservative Party right now do I believe in every single policy the Conservative Party has no do I feel safe under the Conservative party than I do with Labor with Jeremy Corbyn, yes. So like, you know, it's freedom of speech and freedom of choice and you believe in democracy, then everybody should be able to have their democracy. But I think the left want you to stay poor and they want you to stay black. And the idea of the fact that you might be a black person actually emancipates yourself and does something, they find really problematic. And I think that is racism, that they would rather

my young cousins were all going to a shit state school in an area that was probably labor held and then pointing to the government at the time saying, look what you're doing to young black boys. And actually, to be fair, everywhere that's fading in this country is to do with labour. There's nothing to do with the Conservative Party, ideally. And the places that are quite successful here in parts of London, where it's Labour held, a lot of the people that are there have turned the local schools into, like, you know, selection schools.

Like, my auntie can't move to Crouch End to a good state school because of, like, the housing and prizes in London. So why shouldn't she send her children to a grammar school means the fact that they can do as well as some of the people in the Labour Party's front and bench at the moment? I think that's the problem. So yeah, I just, I don't really know how to answer that other than saying it's quite ridiculous and it's, it is racist, it is offensive and people like the Canary don't actually have, don't actually really want like, you know, anything to really change for like the poorest country, the poorest people in this country. And the thing that always, it shocked me and we had a former guest

of ours called Zubi, who's a rapper and an entrepreneur and an incredibly intelligent man and he was talking about what you were talking about. But the thing that he was talking about as well, and that I never noticed is that they use racist language against you in order to

attack you, and then say that they're not racist. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying about Jacob... But yeah, I'm saying, like, so for example, Jacob Rees-Mogg would not be allowed to say the certain things that I get like somebody from the left is able to say to me. So I, Lee Jasper called me publicly on

Twitter a fucked up Negro. What fucked up Negro for, aligning myself with the Tory party, aligned with myself with certain politicians and people who I personally know and I personally worked with. And then he tweeted after that saying like, you know, black face, white soul.

He's a mixed race guy. I'm like, come on me. I'm actually, and this idea of blackness. I just, I don't get the idea of blackness. I'm like, I'm African. I was born in the continent of Africa. I was raised by great African leaders. Like, fuck you, I'm black.

I don't need to, I don't need to, like, you know, search for my blackness. It's something that I've inherited, something that I know. And because of that privilege, and again, this is the thing why I don't really come out of them as much, because I know the privilege you know from the land you're sourced in and to know the people and to know your lineage and to know your history. and obviously like, you know, slavery and a lot of the past issue of this country and this country and this world is like, you know, links to that. But the idea of the fact that you are manipulating your political identity through actually

textbooks that weren't even written by people like you. So he will quote like Malcolm X and I was like, but that's an African American political leader in a context when it's about America and racism and the conversations around. in America. When it comes to the UK, that's completely different. When it comes to Africa, it's completely different. So I think what we've done is we've taken a very political conversation from America, which actually is fundamental there to talk about race and diversity and what it is to be American.

Then it is here in the UK. And this idea of the fact that you have to be like, stay black, stay woke. I'm like, what the fuck does I ever mean? That's my, that's why I might get on a T-Shia like, stay black, stay woke. And I'm like, I don't understand what that means. Like, you know, the fact that, you know, I don't. Wello is an incredible, one of the first queens of the world, and she was ruling in, like, you know, in the place of my birth.

It's like, so I don't need to go to the British Museum to learn about my history. I would like to claim some of my British history back, some of my history, back from the British museum. So I think... You and every other country in the world. That's what I mean. I get misplaced in the sense that I don't agree with shit like that. I don't agree with the British Museum, assuming that it's the hub of culture and, like, you know,

and world history. I don't agree with all those things I want us to be able to protect like you know Timbuktu and actually ensure that Mali as a country stays together because like you know

history is there is 4,000 years old I think one of the interesting things that ISIS did which might be controversial is as they started blowing up like these incredible like you know historical sites is the fact that they showed that the Enlightenment era did not start

in the 17th century see I fight things like that when I'm talking to my white very intellectual friends I have real dialogue and real conversations about saying actually the Enlightenment did not start in the 17th century that Africa and the Middle East India were like in lightening and doing these things

just because you stop using a horse and car to start getting some electricity that did not make you the kings of the world but they wrote history so that's those things I'm very much aware of when I have those conversations but yeah I just I don't have time to be like you know changing my name to some like you know

Egyptian like you know God and pretending that getting some tattoos honestly is really ridiculous like you know the guardian soulmate is also the worst place for that shit as well Guardian Salmate

Guardian Salmate is the most racist place on the planet Really? Yeah How so? I've met a 45-year-old white men from NW5 with tattoos of Africa

and I thought I said do you actually think that's okay and he's like yeah I really feel at home in Africa and I was like you know what I'm going to get a tattoo

of the late district because I love the late district. So yeah, there is a lot of... I don't mind people appreciating Africa, but... I feel at home in Africa. Do you reckon that guy's been to Africa? Yeah, he loves African music.

And then he has this kind of like real fetusization. I always say to people, I always say to a lot of these men, I'm as exotic as a banana. I don't grow in this country, but you can buy me in Tesco's. Like, don't come to me and try to get yourself to be like a little bit more, like, you know,

like ethnic size. Like, you know, my... my ethnicity is something that I'm very comfortable with, but it's not something like I don't walk around with headwaps. Like when I walk, if I put on a head wrap, it's because I'm having a bad headache, and people think I'm making a political statement. I really am not making a political statement.

I'm like, you know, if I put on some massive hoop earrings, I'm not making a woke political statement. I just can't find anything else to wear today. So it's been really interesting being me, someone who's very comfortable in my identity, but also, like, you know, even me opening my mouth always becomes a political thing. And it's interesting that you say that

because we tend to think of a lot of black people as being towards labour leaning towards left but if you look at a lot of people who are first generation, second generation immigrants, number one, they're very aspirational they move to another country in a lot of Tibetan themselves.

They're very family orientated. They tend to be incredibly religious as well and socially conservative. And socially conservative. I mean, those are all qualities of being on the right, aren't they? Well, not on the right. See, I don't like this left and right kind of bullshit

but just not being labor, not just being, not being red. And I think that's why that's one of the things that a lot of people don't get why Boris won two terms in London. He won two terms in London because London's very African. And the African diaspora identified with him a lot. He does quite well. Really? Yeah.

The African diaspora in London identifies with Boris Johnson. If you, like parents, if you like, so not the young, so you won't ask about like this, if you, anybody under the age of 25, probably not, but beyond that, definitely. And I think that is one of the things is that, largest population of black people in the UK at the moment is of African direct descent. And that's a massive coup for the Conservative Party if they want to go into that.

So this is why the difference between the Indian diaspora and the Pakistan diaspora, the Indian diaspora is always very much voted within the Conservative Party because of that whole point of aspiration. A lot of the Pakistani community that have come over here, like, you know, we're not where people to work in the mills and certain places. So they've always stayed in labour areas and kind of done those other kind of conversations. A lot of them in Scotland have now gone towards the SMP, ironically, but ultimately the African diaspora is very conservative and they are very aspirational and they've all come under,

especially when it comes with Jeremy Corbyn. They've all fled countries where the ideas of socialisms that he's selling at the moment have actually crushed their continent. So, not that I work for the Conservative Party or not, like, you know, but I think, like, you know, they would do really well. And every single black MP within the Conservative Party is African. But we never sees that. Every black MP within the Conservatives Party is African. That's interesting.

That's very interesting. James Cleverley? And Sierra Leone. Interesting. See, I never ever thought about where people come from. But that's what I mean. And I think that's what I mean about cultural identity and conversations.

And the whole point is just because you become poor and become a refugee. So my life was a little bit like coming to America but the other way around. My family didn't come here looking for like a bride. we were but we deal still with like my mother was still turned up as though she were like entitled to the same bullshit as she did

when her family ran a country I was like honestly on mom nobody gives a shit and I spent most of my like you know childhood from the age of like 9 to about 15 translating for several people within the community because there was no building mechanisms for things like

you know transglation stuff within the NHS so I I saw that cultural kind of thing of like you know these Somalis like, you know, walking in to places, expecting things and these white people

going, what are you talking about? I once had to explain to somebody there's a term in Samadaka or Haq, means I have a right to. I said, in the UK,

you have an entitlement. Everything you have for a right to is given to you because it's a democracy. You feel out of a fucking form for everything else and see if you're entitled to it. So this idea of

I've got a right to something doesn't exist because you have an entitlement to anything that you haven't already got. So someone with this kind of aspirational mindset which you clearly have

that comes from a community and a family that has the aspirational mindset that you talk about. How do you feel about the new woke left and this idea that everybody's a victim of life? I mean, you, by all standards, could definitely say you've been a victim of life. Yeah, I would say to people,

don't try to out token me. I like those tokens. I like you say, you have a gem survivor, refugee, muslim, woman, black. I, you know... Yeah, you're, I mean, you're fucking winning their President Olympics, aren't you?

That's called a full house. Guardian soulmates survival. But I don't like, you know, that doesn't define me. No those things define me, but they do kind of inform a lot of the things and they inform... Of course they do, but what I'm asking is, like, indoctrinating people

who may have very difficult lives, who may grow up being poor, who may grow up in, as you say, a marginalized community, a community that does have issues with the police and the criminal justice system. and which are real, right?

But the indoctrination of people with this victimhood mentality, I don't imagine you're a fan of that. No, I don't, and also, I'm not a victim of, like, you know, cancelling people or not being able to communicate with people. So there's, like, you know, always having a conversation with somebody on the other side,

and it's always easy for me to cross over. Like, if I met somebody that was, like, a fascist or a neo-Nazi or whatever, it would be easier for me to cross over, then it would be easier for them to cross over and have a conversation with me because the whole point is that I'm comfortable in my identity and I want to have a conversation with you.

Doesn't mean we have to get along at the end of the day. And I remember there was one of my, one of my, this kid I was in uni with wanted to stand as a counsellor. And he sent me an email like, you know, a few months ago. And he said, oh, do you know what I want to stand as a counsellor? But a lot of people making issues about things that I wrote because they said that I was, because I was racist. And I said, but I know, you are racist.

And he's like, yeah, but you're my friend. I'm like, yeah, but it's like, me, just because you've got a black Somali friend does not make you not a racist. We have these conversations all the time. And I said, technically everybody is a racist, but it depends on what you do with that bias and that prejudice. So it's how that it informs you. And I said, would I write about the fact that you are like,

you know, suitable for a certain position? Like, you know, you could probably do this and you have biases that I don't think that you will use as like, you know, prejudice against people within those communities. Yes, I would. But I would not stand here and say that. You're not a racist. And it takes a lot of people.

So you're basically trying to get a racist elected. No, no, I said, no, I said, I wouldn't know, but... I'm just kidding. Yeah, but the whole point is what I say, like, you know, that, like, you know, what is your, what is the bar for you not to be a race? Like, you know, did you ever use the N-word? Did you ever black up, whatever it is? It's like, all those things.

Yeah, they are racist and stupid things to do, but does that mean that you're not necessarily a person that could do a job and a person that, like, you know, has redeemed themselves? It probably does. And so we make racist decisions on a day-to-day basis. Like, my, honestly, like, you know, the whole thing is like who you date, who you're attracted to, what you eat, where you live. All those things are things that ultimately are based on your biases around certain, you know, faiths, religions, or class, or whatever it is. But does that mean that you're a horrible person? I don't think so, because I don't know you.

So I'm of that people that I came, like, you know, I saw the results of a civil war that was all. about tribalism and I try not to like you know say somebody can be a hundred percent of one thing do I what's that guy from the EDL would I want to be friends with him not really probably but it's just more because he's probably a dickhead as opposed to be like whatever he bangs on about race and stuff he's just like he's he's just a very insecure man so I think we do live in a world where complexity is not respected and I grew up in a world where complexity was respected and where you like you know had conversations with with people rather than seeking perfect because I think if you're trying to be perfect,

if you're trying to have these conversations, then you're probably flawed and you're probably high in something. And you talked about tribalism and it's such a good point. Do you think we've become more tribalist as society now? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

That's what I stood for the Women's Equality Party in 2017, and everyone was like, I'm going to be Labor, you're like, you know, this. And I was like, but this is not about tribes, about politics. What are you voting for in terms of politics and things like that? And for me, I think that's what really

freaks me on, and that's what's like, you know, corrosive is, is the tribalism, which ironically comes more from, like, when I voted the Labor Party, when I voted for the Labor Party, which I actually did in every single general election of my life, like, you know, nobody, like, from the, like, no Conservative or no Lib Dem or Green Party member or whatever, said to me, you're a fucking wanker, like, fuck you, you labor voting dickhead. I say, like, you know, I voted for the Conservative Party in the mayor of elections. Oh, you fucking Tory.

And I was thinking, like, what, like, like, why are you not entitled? to an opinion to say a certain thing, say, I'm going to fight you, I'm going to, like, you know, argue against you, I'm going to win the seats. But this idea of the fact

that there's only one answer to the whole world, it's actually quite problematic. And I think, so my brother's standing for the Conservative Party in Cardiff North. The boy called another African if he wins.

Somalia. So, yeah, but the whole thing is like, I think politics is a personal thing and it does change. And if you don't, if your politics hasn't evolved since you were 16, then there's something wrong with you.

Yeah. It's interesting you talk about this. I mean, these super tolerant people, it's amazing how quickly they become incredibly intolerant once they find out that you don't agree with them on every single tiny little thing.

Yeah, like heaven forbid the fact that I think the Tories are okay and I believe in the existence of the state of Israel. I'm cancelled for sure. But they can't cancel me. I've got five tokens to pull out. So yeah, it is, it's actually, it's quite, it's, I think, and also it's,

it's very much anti-intellectual. I think that is the problem is the fact that we've now I've just got shouting heads from both sides and none of it is informed and none of it is like I have opinions on different things like I believe in taxation, I believe in the NHS I believe in like if you want to do private education that's fine. There are things that I believe in

which might, when people say to me oh you're so right wing and I'll say okay what on the spectrum of the things I believe in like what is actually right wing about that about the fact that I do actually believe that if you go to accident emergency more than twice in 18 months with an injury that was caused

because you were drunk you should do some community service so you do hate poor people all like no no I'm just messing with you because it takes a lot to get drunk but all likely that you don't actually control your asthma

so you turn up at accident emergency and I was giving this advice to the doctor and he just looks at me saying are you mental I'm just saying like you know that the NHS should be more about preventing these things

rather than cure like you know me actually turning up. Then I got a call the next day from the hospital asking me how likely I would be to recommend the role free for a family member in the same situation. I was like, I don't want them to have an asthma attack, so what kind of...

So they want to do customer engagement, so the NHS now does customer engagement callbacks. Ah. Now you talk about that you voted for Conservatives in the mayor election, and I'm genuinely interested to hear your point of view because we talk a lot about how Boris Johnson

has seen as a problematic figure. know, he makes jokes about, you know, women, Muslim women looking like letterboxes. What is your opinion of him? And do you think that he should be allowed to make those jokes? Do you think he should apologize? Yeah, I don't know how they'd not talk about that. But ultimately, I think he's the prime minister. I think the prime minister deserves respect.

And I do. And I think he, for me, I've worked with him personally. And I know his personal commitments to the country and to issues that I really want to, I kind of talk about but ultimately it's the same thing with Jeremy Corby I don't like him but I still respect him

as a leader of the opposition I think we've got to this point where we've demonised people so much for even having an opinion or saying anything that it's so there was an interesting take

they asked a guy who was is it Abdul from Bristol they asked Abdul from Bristol to ask the leaders a question when there was when there was the stuff about the conservative party leadership.

I'm like, Abdel from Bristol is more problematic to women like me than the woke people that want to have issues around Boris Johnson and all these things. Nobody that was throwing up arms and having these conversations actually read the full article about his

fundamental principles of saying that women should be able to choose to wear what they want to wear. But then they'll defend someone like Abdul who, who, who, probably call me a whore and want me to be like, you know, like, you know, hung up by my neck for not wearing a headscarf. So I want to say to the left, like, you know, who do you actually stand in solidarity with? Because like, Muslim feminists have been complaining about the burqa for a long time. But I just, I literally, I don't, but I just don't get this whole

defence of the burqa. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, there is no choice in it. And people that were the burqar have chosen a political ideology. It's a political thing. So they've taken a political standpoint against the fundamental democracy in this country. They won't live in a country where the burkers enforced

and everything to do with the burqers respected because they know as women in those countries that they'll have no rights. So it's just like for someone like me, the burq is problematic. For someone like me, white woke people protecting the burqa, when they're not going to be subjected to it, it's problematic. It's fucking ironic when

a white feminist lesbian. protect the worker. In the interest of not getting sued, no, no, no, no, no, but in the interest of not getting sued under libel laws, all three of us should acknowledge that we have no evidence that Abdul from Bristol would call you a whore

or would want you hung up by the neck. People like, Abdul. No, I would say, let's say Cage, let's say Cage. I would not wish to speculate about Abdul's intentions. Okay, let's have a conversation about Cage. So Cage, for example, who are this kind of

extremist male organization. I don't want to call them a Muslim organization because a lot of the things that they protect are very masculine, like things about masculinity and misogyny. They would want to defend the burqa, but people are like, you know, go, yeah, as Cage of Set,

it's like, for God to say, like, their name is cage, because that's what they want to do, they want to cage women. So it's like, so there is, it's more problematic. Like when I was talking about FGM, white men when in the conservative party, understood and respected and we're like

this is horrible what we're doing men from my own community and from these other kind of very I get a very kind of tight like in a very traditional communities

or very patriarchal communities who all wanted to have me killed and several did try to kill me so I think like if the biggest issue that you've got is somebody saying that's something about a letterbox

then you're not actually really talking to Muslim women who are dealing with the consequences of of the narrow interpretation of Islam and one of the things about the growth in Islamophobia

and these kind of things are so what's happened there's like massive tensions within poor white working class communities where a lot of these extremist views are being held and then you've got these ginger jihadists I like to call them

who like you know white men who all of a sudden like you know convert to Islam think they know better than me and start going down to the local car shop and asking for pork to be banned of course people here we're going to having issues with, you know, people saying pork should be banned, alcohol should be banned, and all these other kind of things. But that is not what tolerant Islam or conversations

have been about. So I think we need to look at where the conversations around the so-called definitions of Islamophobia come from. Because I think silencing women like me who say, we don't like the burqa, polygamy is wrong. Like, you know, all these things which should be protected as like, you know, identities of being Muslim are things that we've been fighting about in all these countries that we all come from. So yeah, I think there's a massive issue around who we're targeting around the growth of Islamophobia. And I think a lot of that has to sit with a lot of men who've become the kind of the gatekeepers of these communities. Well, it's a very good point.

The reason I made the thing about libel is because a few weeks ago we were talking about Amazon on the show. And Francis insinuated that they may not pay as much tax as they should. And some of our viewers who are lawyers emailed then going, you may want to look up libel laws, guys. So I did look up libel laws and basically if you say anything on our show that turns out to be inaccurate. Well, just take all that bit out then.

I was only joking. No, no, no, but I do think it's just one of those things that nobody is calling up like, you know, leaders of certain communities. No, no, but that's a totally different point. You're entitled to make that point. But the Abdul from Bristol, we just want to say to you, we have no idea what you get up to in your own time.

I don't know what you think. the whole article about it. Okay, so if you want to sue someone, sue Nimco. And on that happy note, Nimco, we've run out of time, unfortunately. It's been a great interview. Thank you so much for coming. We have got one final question for you, which is...

What is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really should be talking about? What are we not talking about in society that we should be talking about? Obviously, I'm going to say vaginas, we're not talking about enough about vaginas. And there's a consultation at the moment out on surrogacy. I think we should actually be talking more about

like, you know, the toxicness of surrogacy within our society right now and I think this idea of the fact of like, you know, having your own designing babies and kind of assuming that everybody has the right to have a child. It's a bit random, but it's not random. It's just, I really...

No. There was a show that I watched a few years ago which had these, like, you know, like this family that was buying eggs from like white-hot women and then going to India and just pumping their eggs, eggs and their sperm, like these fetuses into these poor Indian women. And there are enough kids

out there for us to adopt. But this idea of the fact that we're all doing like surrogacy as though, because this is a new way that technology has allowed us to have a family. It's really problematic. And I think, and then again, you can't say that because it's about certain communities feeling like they're being targeted. But I just think like, you know, surrogacy is a massive issue. and I think it's a very under, like, in a research and talked about form of violence case, women. All right, well, thanks for bringing it up.

As always, follow, I guess, Nimco on Twitter. We'll put a link out to that. Follow us, and we will see you in a week from now with another brilliant episode. Take care. See you next week, guys.