TRIGGERnometry - "No Race Has a Monopoly on Oppression" - Inaya Folarin Iman

Episode Date: July 12, 2020

Inaya Folarin Iman is a writer, columnist and Director at The Free Speech Union. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm Constance and Kissing. And this is a show for you, if you want, honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is the writer, columnist, and the director of, of the Free Speech Union in our following, IMA. Welcome to Trichinometry. Thank you for having me. It's good to have you here for anyone who doesn't know who you are, and we're delighted to have you on, by the way.

I've been chatting about you for a while, your commentary on on the recent stuff that's been going on, has been fantastic. Tell everybody who are you, how are you where you are. What has been the journey that brings you sitting to this chair here in this very hot room? Well, so I was born in London. I'm a daughter of Nigerian immigrants to the UK,

but I was raised in a city. single-parent household. And my mum, she worked really, really hard to send me and my sister to kind of fee-paying schools. Then halfway through, I left and I went to a kind of local comprehensive school. And after that, went to a grammar school. And so from a really young age, I've, I guess, been exposed to various different socioeconomic aspects of British society. And that made me really interested from really young in terms of what kind of values, principles and cultures might impact and shape the way that people perceive themselves and their place within the society. So that really started very young in terms of my interest in politics. But now,

you know, through a whole range of situations, I've become a free speech campaigner. And I think that that really sparked, particularly when I went to university, I think that's where I really became radicalised. I've always been really interested in ideas. But as we've seen with this kind of free speech, culture wars and campus wars, I was really surprised to see the kind of really limiting climate in university when it came to free speech. One event in particular, I think is what really sparked my interest. And there was this whole movement at my university in regards to why is my curriculum white, decolonise the curriculum.

And I think it's a really interesting movement in terms of broadening our understanding of the kind of way in which race relations came to be in the UK. But what I found at university, it was one particular narrative. And I posed the question of whether or not this was useful. And I received a huge, huge backlash at university. And then I started a series of kind of free speech debates on campus. And again, there was so much controversy and kind of ridicule in relation to these free speech conversations, which I understood was essentially the fundamental bedrock of our democracy.

And how do we kind of move forward in terms of conversations about race and progress within society if we aren't able to even understand the very foundation of our democracy? And so that's kind of where particular university, where I really became interested in this conversation about free speech. and that's kind of brought me on to conversations about identity, politics, agency, democracy and things like that. And so you also work for the free speech union with Toby Young. Why is it that we need a free speech union? Because don't we live in a liberal democracy? Can't I go and say whatever I feel without repercussion? Yeah, I mean, it's really, really astonishing how little I found that people genuinely understand free speech.

I mean, the conversation, particularly right now about free speech, is often framed in relation to, hate and spreading hate and how it's kind of somehow in contradiction to the pursuit of liberation of minorities. When I often understood it as free speech is almost, is very nature to protect minorities. You know, you don't need free speech if you are necessarily the majority because you're backed up by power and privilege. It is the views of the minority, whether that's, you know, religious or ethnic or otherwise, where kind of free speech is so important. And so for me, again, that's why I kind of became really interested in it again, because I'm told because of my identity, because I'm a black woman, this that and the other, that I meant to have a particular

world view and a particular attitude. And I found that, you know, free speech is actually so fundamental to pursuing transformational change within society. And so again, I felt that I had a kind of moral obligation to be part of reshaping and redefining the free speech conversation in the UK. And that's kind of why I got involved in the free speech union. And we're recording this at a quite interesting cultural moment, to say the very least, the things seem to be really kicking off. And I thought that the issue with free speech, as you know, and we've talked in the past,

the issue with free speech has been there for some time now, as you talk about it, you know, at university when you were there. But am I right in thinking that it seems to, you know, I don't think the last few weeks have made it better, have they? I mean, it's really been astonishing. Again, the racial conversation is not necessarily. is there only one that has interested me from my upbringing. Well, why not?

Because we're told that all black people are oppressed. You know, you experience racism on a daily basis. And look, of course there's racism. I've experienced racism. You know, you haven't probably. No, no, mate. Not with this voice. I give racism, not experience it.

You're just too pink for racism. That's where you are. But, you know, look, of course there are racist people in the world, right? So how is it that, you know, you've managed to avoid this conversation? you've managed to grow up to go through university to get a job, to be a prominent speaker on these issues and a commentator in our public society without becoming embroiled in this racial way of thinking. Why are you so different?

Well, it's really interesting. I started off with my upbringing. I think that that is really what has shaped me. Despite on paper, my mom came to this country as an immigrant, all of these types of things. We didn't grow up necessarily rich. but from such a young age, I was inculcated with this view that you know you can achieve whatever you want, you know, the sky is the limit. And I never had all of these kind of racial hangups.

And so that never became how I perceived myself in the world and how, you know, what my potentials were defined by. And so I never thought that, you know, that is necessarily the kind of way in which that I should necessarily engage in politics. But it's become really important now because I've been so worried about the deeply, what I would argue is disempowering and demoralizing message that we are sending to a whole generation of young people that are living in a society that has made leaps and bounds when it comes to race relations, not just in the last 30 or 40 years, but in the last 10 years, there's so many schemes, programs, drive to increase representation. And all of a sudden, at the point where I would argue we can actually say, yes, there's more to be

done, but perhaps in all the things that have happened in the last 20 years, the race relations situation, I would argue is one of the few things that we have triumphed and achieved. And at this very moment, we are now being told that our society couldn't be more racist, more sexist, this cesspool. And so I find it really dangerous, this narrative that is being told. And there's many studies that have actually kind of come out as well that are confirming just the actual corrosive nature of this particular narrative. So there's been, you know, studies that have come out which show that, for example, black men in particular, but black people are more likely to be in high security mental health institutions if they have contact with mental health.

or health services, and many people think, oh, that's an example of institutional racism. Well, actually, when it's being investigated further, what we're finding is that this narrative about the system being against you makes people interact with that system differently and perceive that, you know, a lack of trust and a lack of kind of cohesive relationship with that institution, which makes them more likely to resist, similar with the kind of stigma that exists in regards to mental health in many of these kind of ethnic minority communities. On top of that, we've seen it with regards to the justicism and the prison system.

Many people, for example, are less likely to plead guilty for crimes because they are mistrusting of their lawyers and things like that. So what we're actually finding in a lot of these situations, this particular narrative about Britain being institutionally and structured in a racist way is actually producing a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I think that that's, as I said, a really demoralizing message to send to young people and that's why, you know, I in some ways use myself as an example of despite all of these things on paper, you know, I've been able to achieve that.

And absolutely racism exists. But there's much more to the story than what I think is being told. And why is it that we don't challenge the narrative? So you've just put forward a reason as to why these things exist, why the stats are where they are. But why is it that we don't challenge the narrative that is happening right the way through social media and so on? I think there are quite a few reasons for that. I think that there are ideological reasons in terms of, what I would argue, many of the philosophies that underpin the worldviews that are shaping our society today.

So those are things like intersectionality, critical race theory. So for example, in critical race theory, it's framed that racism permeates every single aspect of our life. So there's almost nothing that we can do about it. And that's very much shaping the conversation about racism in academia. And I think that that's very much filtering off to every other aspect of society. But on top of that, there's an entire industry now that, in some ways has a vested interest in perpetuating this narrative. And I think this is quite a sensitive topic.

I definitely think it needs to be said. You know, I've spoken about, you know, every HR department, having an equality, diversity and equity officer. There are many whole organizations now that have, that are solely kind of invested in this particular narrative about racism existing and in a really deep and profound way. And yes, it does exist. But there's a whole kind of structure within society that now,

are embedded in perpetuating this particular narrative. If you have whole academic fields about, you know, racism in Britain, and I think that there's not many people that feel comfortable to be able to kind of challenge that when it's become so embedded and permeating in the climate that we have. But on top of that, I think there is a kind of overcorrection. I think that many people are genuinely well-meaning. They're hearing black people saying that, you know,

this is the way that society is. And so obviously as we want to care about individuals that are making these claims about society, it's our intention is obviously want to believe that and to alleviate that. But I think that there is genuinely a problem in kind of accepting this whole narrative wholesale. So one of the things that has really emerged recently is this whole idea that you as a white person or you as a this person can never really understand me as a black woman. Listen to this bit. This is for you, mate. And I think this is an incredibly pernicious idea.

I actually think that this is so destructive because it unpacks and kind of removes the very basis of this whole idea of universalism and humanism. That even though we might have different experiences, what we share is our common humanity. And we all feel alienation. We might all feel, you know, trauma. But ultimately, we all experience those things. And so we can put ourselves in other people's shoes. And from my experience, again, it doesn't resonate with what I've ever. experience, some of the most profound and interesting conversations I've had about race, have been

with people of other races. And so I think that we really have to challenge this idea that, you know, someone's subjective experience is the only valid way of understanding the world around us. We have to defend this notion of an objective truth. We have to defend that there are things that we can find out and research and look at the complexities of why that situation is and accept that we can all understand that as human beings and not let just one section of society be able to define what specific aspects mean. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right.

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Slash trigger. You see, this is where I would agree with what you're saying in the sense that I think that's the right way to go. But I wonder whether we've just gone too far in the other direction that it's not possible any longer. I'll give you an example. You know, a friend of us who watched our interview with Aisha Akambi, who you know, I sent it to a friend of his.

And his friend said, yeah, I really enjoyed it because it was a black woman talking about her experience. You're shaking in disgust. But you know what? I mean, like, the majority of people have been in, you know, indoctrinated with this idea that that is how we think. And I'll be honest with you, I think, you know, us, we've been indoctrinated with it as well. Like, I have been on very woke. No, I don't know about that, mate. Like, I wonder whether, let's be honest, if Aisha was white or if you were white,

we would have you as readily on our show as we do when you're not white. Do you see what I'm saying? No, I do understand that. And obviously, there is some validity. to the notion that, you know, being obviously of a particular race and if you're having a conversation about things that affect that race, then they're going to be more invested in that particular conversation. But it's, but it's more than that, I think. There's one thing kind of listening to other people, but there's another thing as homogenising them or becoming a kind of spokesperson. And that's one of the things, again, that I think has been quite toxic. I've seen essentially a kind of concerted effort to create an all-encompassing mythology about what it means to be black

in the world today, but particularly Britain, and essentialising that narrative to be one of racism, oppression and victimhood. And the problem with this kind of homogenous view is then when you have ethnic minorities, you know, Minera Meuse and myself, other people that don't experience or don't feel that this particular narrative speaks to what they've experienced, then we are then, you know, framed as the other. And so ultimately, we need to be able to say, you know, you are speaking for yourself as an individual. And what our individual experience is ultimately what is important and not be solely defined by these categories. And why do you think the debate is so toxic? Because it's not just toxic when people come out and talk about their own experiences. It's toxic within, for instance,

the black community. I mean, it's a ridiculous thing to say. But, you know, somebody like you says their experience, then you get other people using racist language against you. And you think, Why is it that we can't have a simple, honest discussion on these matters? I think that a lot of people are really kind of... So if you create, as I said, this all-encompassing narrative about what it means to be black, and you inculcate that to a whole generation of young people, then their entire identity is then invested in that particular worldview.

And so to challenge that becomes more than just kind of having an open, honest conversation, it becomes about essentially challenging how they perceive themselves. And I think that that seems to make people really uncomfortable at a fundamental level. And that's why I think that it's really important now to try and really unpack these essentially fact-free stories that are being perpetuated. Or we're going to have a whole group of people that define their entire identity by this kind of victim grievance narrative. And internalize that. And then again, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. because people start to have a chip on their shoulder.

People start to perceive the world around them differently. And again, it's really interesting because I know this from experience. I grew up in a relatively conservative household. But for a very short period of time, I was really interested in these work ideas. And I started spending a lot of time with people that perpetuated them. And I saw how it actually changed me. And that was really interesting. I think that's one of the reasons why I think I'm quite passionate about it,

is that, you know, I started to see, you know, in normal interactions with people as perhaps prejudicial or like that people were, you know, judging me based on my race. And that society itself was structured against me and that almost there was nothing that I could do about it. And that this is some of the things that are being told and people do believe. And I think that that massively changes

what you believe is possible for yourself. So I think that we have to separate people's, as I said before, objective judgments with what the facts of the matter is. And that's why I'm so adamant about telling the truth about what the situation is. So some of the things that have been said is, you know, all these different aspects of society, this notion of systemic racism. But when you actually unpack many of these concepts and the different layers of society, the picture is much more complex. So let's take, for example, education. The situation for British Nigerian children is almost completely different to the situation for British Jamaican children. Oh yeah, you guys are

smashing it, right? Look how proud she is. Yeah, West Africa, I used to be a teacher, West African girls are one of the highest achieving subgroups in all of education. Exactly, and, you know, yeah, exactly, higher than the average in the country. But the situation is different for British Caribbean boys.

So why is that? That can't be solely down to systemic racism, because we have disparities, quite significant disparities amongst ethnic groups and BME ethnic groups themselves. Similarly, you know, with British Indian people and British Chinese people have actually have a higher average earning

than the white British population. Not happy about that. We're just going to clip that. That's going to be you telling a black woman you're not happy about minorities doing well. It's going to make for a great clip. And you're getting cancelled. But this is just, it kind of just proves them

that there is so much more to the conversation and so people are jumping on this simplistic narrative. And what it's doing is, you know, having these very blanket one-size-fits-all solutions, which are ultimately counterproductive. And so what I'm really interested in is what is not being talked about in this conversation. You know, we all talk about racism and all of these types of things. But very few people are talking about notions of agency, culture, personal responsibility and class. And I think these are quite a complex assortment of factors that are massively, if not predominantly,

shaping social outcomes in this country. Don't you think part of the problem is that people go, oh, you know, black people? And the reality is, you know, African and Caribbean are completely different. They're different. They're different in the way they see the world. They'd have different values. And not just that.

You know, Africa is a very large continent. So somebody who is from Mali is going to be essentially very, very different to someone who is Moroccan. Yeah. So I think the kind of differences within black groups is I think is a really interesting one. So for example, particularly people from West Africa,

most of them are not actually descendants from slaves, for example. And I think that's quite a big distinction between the Caribbean community. And I think some of the legacies in terms of even internalized racism and different issues related to that also play a part in the kind of relationship between how they perceive themselves and their relationship with Britain. For example, Caribbean predominantly came to Britain decades before, many of the Ghanaian and Nigerian migrants, there are still some very strong kind of rooted values in terms of conservatism that permeate many people of African heritage in Britain.

So I think that these kinds of things that are shaping the relationship between race and kind of social outcomes in this country are massively being missed. So in some ways, and I don't want to put these words in your mouth, but I'm just curious to explore this, let's say a first-generation Ghanaian might have more in common with a first-generation Russian immigrant than they might do with a British-born Caribbean person. Is that kind of... Yeah, no, exactly. I do think that is the case. And so that's why I think there's kind of blanket systemic racism, institutional racism argument is missing these kinds of nuances and complexities of the situation. And on top of that, what's really interesting, you know, I kind of touched on this

notion of agency and personal responsibility, something that I would really like to. explore further. Again, it's quite a sensitive topic. But there's a culture within, particularly some communities, predominantly black communities of this whole notion of like you're acting white. And I actually think that some of that actually seems to me to have some connections with this whole Uncle Tom culture that we're seeing, you know, you're a coon and all these kinds of things. And I just define a few of those things for people who may be less familiar. Like we're obviously all very versed in this stuff. But first of all, what does it mean to be acting white and then talk to us about the whole Uncle Tom phenomenon as well.

Yeah, so I think it's, you know, I think it seems to happen less when people leave school, but I think it's something that I've seen a lot among school kids, you know, black kids that might be nonconformist or interested in traditionally white type of things that people say maybe rock music, despite the fact that that has often origins as well in like Jimmy Hendricks and things like that. But things like that, a lot of young kids have said, oh, you're acting white. And I think that that can actually shape the perception of what black culture is to young people. And I think that when they think of what it means to be black in Britain, contributed by the community itself is often a very narrow perception of what blackness actually is.

And I think that these types of things also have a massive contributing factor into the way blackness is then represented in the wider society. And I think that that's really something that has nothing necessarily to do with white people or whiteness. And that's why I think this conversation needs to be much more internal and reflective in regards to what are we doing as individuals within our own community, so to speak, to perpetuate certain ideas and beliefs and behaviours that could be limiting the way that we perceive our potential. And then talk to us about the whole Uncle Tom thing as well. Yeah, I think particularly in the last few months, this has been something that I've seen grow at a really exponential rate.

You know, we've seen it with kind of Prissy Patel, Rishish Sunak, or even other ethnic minority people that have become really successful. Do not perceive themselves as oppressed or victimized back. Knowledge racism exists, but I don't feel that they are defined by yet, are claimed to be somehow agents of white supremacy, or agents of perpetuating, you know, a racist system. And again, I think it's such a limiting perception of what it means to be any of these different groups.

Because from my understanding at least, integration or at least progress to me would be seeing intellectual diversity, ideological diversity amongst all of these different people, that they're no longer solely political based off of their race alone, that their political interest. are defined by so much more than that. And so what I'm finding now,

the strongest perpetrators of these kind of very rigid stereotypes, these limiting stereotypes, is not coming from the kind of traditional, far-right kind of white racist. It's coming from this section of the woke left in particular that have a very narrow perception

of ethnic minorities. And it's not just a narrow perception, it's an actual denial of, you know, a lot of these ethnic minorities are socially conservative because they're first-generation immigrants. No, it is really interesting. And I hope that going forward as we have more of these conversations,

more and more people will see that actually, you know, the left isn't necessarily the natural home. Now, I don't actually identify as necessarily on the left or the right. But I do think a lot of the conservative values that many immigrant communities do grow up in, do you seem to find a stronger place in kind of conservatism more broadly? And I really hope that as this kind of conversation progresses, we can see far more intellectual and ideological diversity and political experimentation amongst ethnic minority communities.

All right, well, that concludes about 20 minutes section of the interview where I massively derailed you from talking about the free speech union and what's happening now. And let's go back to that because I do think it's important. The question I asked you at the very beginning was, do you think things have got better with free speech or that they've got worse in the last few weeks with everything that's been going on?

I think that it's massively got worse. And I don't say that lightly. And not only do I think it's got worse, I think it's incredibly dangerous to place that we're in. We are talking about, particularly from the Black Lives Matter narrative in particular, asking their calling for quite significant transformational changes of our society. And none of this can potentially, none of this can possibly happen in a positive way. If we are not embedded in an existing social climate where people feel able to come forward,

to challenge, to engaging constructive discourse, and tell the truth about what they feel. You know, people, I'm seeing a feeling compelled to lie. Many people have emailed me and come to me telling me, you know, their friends are going to leave them if they don't put a black square or say black lies matter. None of these things are conducive to a constructive and positive forward-facing vision.

You know, I want people to tell the truth. I want people to tell me when I'm wrong. And actually free speech right now is massively in decline. And not just from a kind of, you know, conception of free speech in relation to conversation, but even that the way in which we are conceiving of our own history, we are seeing this kind of very one-dimensional, overly negative characterisation of Britain and British history, which is then shaping, again, what I've said before, the way in which people are perceiving themselves. And I think that freedom of speech,

as I said, is just so important in regards to obviously the pursuit of higher meaning and truth, You know, the basis of free speech is also this whole idea of obviously, as in a democracy, we all have equal power in shape to be able to shape our society. And, you know, free speech is the mechanism to which we can really understand each other. And if we don't really start to defend it and protecting it in a meaningful way, I think that we're in kind of really dangerous territory. It's interesting you say that, you know, we're in dangerous territory, because thank the Lord that I'm not involved in a corporate environment anymore.

But I could imagine, especially, you know, with the, you know, Black Lives Matter movement. If you have any sort of qualms about this particular movement or the notion of white privilege, you dare not say it aloud in a corporate environment. What I find really interesting, and I've written about this slightly, is the way in which corporations have been so accepting of the Black Lives Matter narrative. And I think a lot of people within Black Lives Matter think that they're really radical and think that they're kind of challenging power structures. But actually, the way in which corporations have been so part and parcel of this process, to me, is a really interesting development in regards to how corporations

and just the powers that be, the kind of political, cultural and media establishment don't actually see Black Lives Matter as a threat. And I think that that's because many of the things that are being pushed forward about Black Lives Matter are actually incredibly divisive. It is very much this divide and rule game that I would argue undermine solidarity amongst working class people across races. And so people are kind of fighting amongst themselves. instead of seeing the kind of broader question about the way in which the structures within our society are increasing social injustice and extreme economic inequality for all people, not just black people.

And so it suits the corporate kind of ideology very well, but not just because of that, but also because it means that they can engage in very superficial gestures of, you know, putting a black square saying down to white supremacy, all of these types of things. but the genuinely meaningful, horrific wrongs that are going on in the present day perpetuated by many of the kind of corporate interests get ignored by just so that, so instead they can just put these kind of very simplistic superficial gestures and, you know, they get their woke points for that. And so I think that I find it very interesting that that wokeness as an ideology seems very comfortable within the corporate realm. And I think that that tells us very much about, you know,

if it's really challenging, anything meaningful. In other words, a big company can, you know, put the black square, give some money to Black Lives Matter while employing people paying the minimum wage in horrible conditions of all colors because they're too busy, you know, engaged in this protest or in this movement, as opposed to campaigning for their right to actually be paid better or to have better working conditions.

Is that what you're saying? No, exactly. I mean, it leads to fascinating examples. It's just ridiculous. So, you know, you had Pet Wadiola, the Manchester City manager, coming out and talk about slavery whilst being bankrolled by Abu Dhabi. And you just think, I mean, is this, and no one brings it up. Well, you know, this whole thing about slavery, you know, I think it's again another really

worrying trend. Everybody in our society, I think there's almost unanimity about, you know, that slavery and the things that went on in the past were horrific wrongs. No one really defends that, but we cannot be bound by our history. You know, the human story is complex, is multifaceted, It's a story of triumph, conquest, pain and courage. And that's a traumatic one, but also a beautiful one. At some point, we've got to be able to recognize that we have to take responsibility for our lives in the present day. And I'm also worried about this really one-dimensional narrative about slavery. Again, slavery was and is a completely horrific thing.

But also, for example, working class white people in Britain suffered indentured servitude and horrific conditions. And so black people don't have a monopoly on a problem. They don't have a monopoly on suffering. And I think that, again, framing just the black identity solely based of these really negative characteristics will only weigh people down. And I think there isn't just one idea of, as I said, what blackness is, what progress looks like, how do we get there? We've got to really platform the vast range of intellectual and ideological diversity

that exists amongst the black population, but start focusing on the positive, focusing on the future because, you know, people can't be weighed down by these. horrific things that happened in history. Do you want to go? I was going to say, you know, you talk about the importance of being able to have this free conversation, but we've seen, and I know that this is something the free speech union cares about and is working on, we've seen people who've, and I saw the transcript. Initially, you know, when you see these news reports, they never tell you what actually

happened. Have you noticed this lately? Like when they talk about a case where somebody said something they weren't supposed to say and then they got fired, they never actually give you the information about what that person said. You know, gets removed from Twitter. You never find out why, right? Because when you do this guy on, is it, I Love White, this presenter? Yes, yeah, the radio presenter, absolutely. So he had what seemed like a pretty reasonable conversation to me with a black caller and he said to the caller, actually, I'm not, you know, I haven't had any more privilege than you. And that was his opinion. Now, he might be right. He might be wrong. I don't know how privileged has been. I don't know anything about him.

but he was instantly removed pending subject to an investigation, this whole thing. So how do we have these conversations if the moment you question it, in your case, you become an uncle Tom or in the case of a white person who's employed, they get fired? How do we talk about it? I think that we've really got to expose this particular worldview completely for what it is. They talk a lot about compassion and empathy, but actually there is completely nothing empathetic or compassionate about assuming that particular statement, listening to particular statements and then defining an entire person's worldview or belief based over those few statements or just blanketing an entire group of people. There's nothing compassionate about that.

I've heard stories of, for example, friends that tell me that they've, you know, they've got racist grandparents or, yeah, and I find that really interesting, you know, my instinct is not to go, oh, these people are really evil people. I'm really interested in, you know, why people have these kinds of worldviews. What makes them think that? And I think only when we can do that, can we meaningfully address those things. But some of those things are not even, you know, necessarily motivated by a hatred or for a group of people. Some people have genuinely never come across, you know, a black person. They've been in a very insular, small community, their entire life. And there's various stereotypes that permeate within that community. And, you know,

so there's many different reasons for why people come to the different conclusions that they've come to about the world. And that's what we need to seek to understand. I think we really have to expose this particular worldview for what it is. I think it's really interesting, even the whole definition of racism that they propagate. They frame the definition of racism in a way for them to never be able to be racist. And even what we were talking about earlier about history, you know, that if you are solely defined by your history, then how can you ever be responsible for your own action. And so the way that they frame the situation is for they can never do wrong. They can never say anything wrong or be responsible. And that gives them a green light to be able to do anything

they want without any consequences. And that's not compassionate. That's not creating a better world. To create a better world, we have to go far beyond now. We have to reach across tribal lines and try and genuinely understand each other and create solutions. But on top of that, I oppose this whole idea of white privilege. You know, again, I understand why. And I understand why. why people kind of say it. They argue that, for example, white people, if they're going to be oppressed by anything, it's not going to be because of their race.

But again, I think that these kinds of really simplistic narratives are really divisive. So one thing is I think that we are all privileged and disadvantaged for a whole host of reasons. You know, there's people that grow up poor, but they have, you know, a really strong community and family. And, you know, there's people that are rich and, you know, don't have that.

There are many different things that make us who we are. and that's genuinely compassionate. That's genuinely empathy and common humanity. And on top of that, there are many white people that I've come across and spoken to that have contacted me who genuinely don't feel privileged because of their white, because of their race. You know, whether that is the fact that white working class boys have the lowest educational attainment. In this country, there's been whole scandals to do with grooming gangs, which is a whole another issue in itself.

The idea that the only valid form of grievance is a racial one, and that should be the only kind of way in which we can engage in this conversation about privilege is just frankly not true. And do you think part of the problem is that the people who are talking about things about white privilege tend to be white middle class and white upper class people? Oh, I think this is a really interesting point because, you know, especially with this whole conversation about Megan Markle, for example, there was this whole argument that she was kind of a victim of racism and a lot of the time it's framed as kind of poor white working class people that have all of these. bigoted attitudes. But from my experience, from what I've seen, the working class in Britain are actually the most diverse group. Most of the interracial relationships and, you know, mixed-race children and all of these things are actually happening amongst working-class people who've also been at the forefront of most anti-racist struggles in Britain for the last few decades. So this whole

framing about, you know, dividing it by race and class in this way is just doesn't stack up to reality. And what I found is that it's often, you know, the middle class, white middle class narrative, I don't want to, again, frame it solely by race. But I just think it's interesting that, seem to be wanting to be the kind of savior and the answer to all of these issues and a way to kind of look down on a valid way of exerting prejudice on a group of people, which is kind of the white working class population. I find that very interesting. So I think that, again, many of the narratives, when we actually investigate them, don't actually stack up to this very binary oppressive versus oppressed narrative that we are being told.

Well, I'm listening to you, and it makes perfect sense to me, and as you know, I agree with much of what you say. But I saw a CNN poll, I think, and some people who don't like CNN are going to be upset about that. But I suspect it's probably quite accurate, which shows that somewhere between 60 and 70% of black people in this country do feel that the police treat them worse because they're black, do feel discriminated against, do think they're systemic racism. So, you know, either you're wrong or that what you're talking about is correct, but it's not cutting through to ordinary people. How do you explain that? Yeah, I think that, again, so people feeling that way, whether we like it or not, doesn't necessarily mean it's true. We've got to be confident and, you know, feel comfortable to be able to challenge people's feelings because our feelings change

and our feelings can be wrong. And even many of the things about the kind of systemic racism and police brutality, again, I believed in the past until I actually looked into it. So I think that a lot of the, a lot of people haven't been confident to actually challenge what the facts are. For example, the BBC itself reported that a lot of people

are talking about, you know, deaths in police custody. In the last 10 years, 163 people have died in police custody. In 10 years, 13 were black. So that's, you know, about one a year. And actually by the BBC's own statistic, a white person was 25% more likely to die in police custody than a black person. So people are taking one figure, one statistic, and not actually showing the whole picture. So if we only talk about this one statistic without showing the entire context, then of course we're going to assume that people are being treated differently. I mean, another example is that, you know, ethnic minority or black people are more likely to be in poverty and this, that the other.

Well, the truth of the matter is, I think something. something like a third of black ethnic minority in this country are foreign-born. So many of them come from poor countries. So you're going to come from a poor country. And obviously, oftentimes you do start at the bottom. That doesn't mean that you're being discriminated against or systemic racism. It just means that it takes time to move up the social ladder. And those opportunities are there.

And so, again, we talk about ethnic minorities in relation to crime. Well, again, coming from an immigrant household, you're more likely to be in an impoverished community and there's many different things that affect in terms of impoverishment crime that relate to that. So that's not, a lot of these things can actually just be explained and resolved and don't necessarily have anything in relation to an institutional or systemic racism. And I think about always about my own upbringing. So I grew up in an area of South London which had real problems with race. The pub down my road is a BMP pub.

It had an England flag flying. Why do you keep saying that but the England flag? You said that every time and then all the people are... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Having an inklethag doesn't make you racist. No, no, it doesn't. It absolutely doesn't make you racist. And any shape or form. However, the pub was a B&P pump,

and that's where they used to meet up and, you know, and there was assaults against Asian people and all the rest of it. And it feels like we've made huge progress. Have we taken a step back as a result of what's been happening at the moment? So I think it's a really important point that you mentioned the B&P pub

because, again, when I was saying in the beginning, about race relations being perhaps one of the one things that we can try and think the BNP has literally collapsed as a political movement. I think Britain is one of the only countries in the West who do not have a far right force as a coherent political force. That is saying something. And so I think that we are taking a regressive step. And it does pay me to say that because, as I said before, to tell a whole generation of young people that are living in such a, you know, there's definitely things more to be done. And I'm not going to do. deny that. But I personally think most of the more that needs to be done is relating to

individual mentality, agency and personal responsibility. That's my opinion. But there is obviously more to be done. But then saying this, completely permeating this almost every single day, is such a divisive situation. I've seen friendship groups that have been friends for decades, all of a sudden, you know, defining their friendship group on racial lines. You know, one friend saying, or what can I do to help you as a black person? And it was never like that before. They never talked about race in such a divisive way. But this whole narrative and being permeated

naturally becomes internalized, as is embedded in our own culture. So I think it is a regressive step. I think going forward, I hope that we are moving towards more of a colourblind society where people are... But that's racist now. But that's literally what people say. The idea of a colourblind society is racist.

I keep getting people telling me that that's not what Martin Luther King meant when he said people should be judged on the content of their character. He didn't mean a colorblind society. He was a revolutionary. He wanted to overthrow the white patriarch or whatever it is. Is that not true? No, I don't think that's true. And, you know, the alternative of a colorblind society would mean to sacrifice the whole idea of meritocracy. You know, we see this with hiring practices.

It seems it's more likely now that you will be hired to fill a tick box in a. quota, not necessarily by, you know, normal kind of competition to get a job. And so that completely undermines the idea of meritocracy. And that, again, creates a self-fulfilling prophecy, like, black kids think they're getting a job because of their race. And, you know, and that they didn't need to think about that before. And so I think that a colourblind society, if not what we have now, should absolutely be the goal. I would even like to see, again, this is a, you know, probably a more out-there idea. But we talk about anti-racism. What I'd really like to see is us even thinking far more imaginatively and bigger in terms of, could we even overcome race? Is that something even possible?

I think that if we are serious about, you know, transforming our society to make it fairer and more just and, you know, freer, I think that we've really got to go beyond these artificial categories and start being far more imaginative in relation to how we relate to each other. And so go for it? No, so what would you, what would you implement if you, that's exactly what I was going to say? But this is the real question. Like you talk about agency and responsibility. Like, what do you think people need to do and we as a society need to do as well to, to, to overcome this?

Yeah, so there's a few things. Obviously, there's top-down, top-level things and bottom-level things. I think that, you know, we need to stop continually perpetuating this idea that Britain is this society. I think we need to be completely confident in saying that we understand. not this society. You know, it's imperfect, but we are a positive, forward, tolerant country, but there is absolutely more that we can do. And we stand united all as British people, wherever we come from, but we are all here together as British people. So from the top level, I'd love to see far more kind of moral and political leadership in not being so cowardly

in the face of these movements. And I think that that would be really, really strong. She's talking about Boris Johnson. Because I think that that's part of the problem. Many of these people think they can get away with it because there's no pushback. And so there's got to be something on the top level. But from the bottom up, I think that we absolutely need to cultivate a far more culture of criticism. You know, critique is now considered hate or criticism.

You know, you can't even share a platform or someone that thinks differently to you. I don't think that that's successful. I think that we need to cultivate a culture of criticism where debate and discussion and these difficult ideas become embedded into our daily lives. I think that that would really, I think, raise the level of consciousness. political consciousness, but also help people to recognize that, you know, you don't necessarily have more superiority. You know, there are reasons why we all think differently. And we all can contribute in this open environment to be able to create solutions together and negotiate change.

So that from the bottom up, I would love to see that far more in schools, far more critical and deep intellectual engagement to embed that kind of culture of tolerance and mutual understanding and deep, kind of rigorous intellectual debate in order to foster genuine meaningful intellectual diversity, not just kind of diversity of color. Paradei presents, Ojos with Alerjia and Picasson, contra the gardener. And the ganador is Paradei extra-furted. To alleviate the acyceum of the eyes for allergy, actua more rapidly and supera Clarity

and Flownays, even at 24 hours. Parade, Adelante. What about on the individual level? You talk about agency and responsibility. These are all words that don't mean much to many people. They're just, you know. So what are you talking about? So I think that I'm really interested in if we all as individuals cultivated as much as we can

as a sense that we could actually achieve and did everything that we as individuals first could do to make our lives better, I think that that would completely transform our society. I think that we, there is an automatic response to assume and blestead. external factors. And sometimes, obviously, there are external factors that play apart. But as I've seen with my own life and my own family, who in many ways came from nothing in Britain and were able to transform their life, there is clearly a potential within all of us to be able to do something different, to be able to shape our future and shape our reality. And I think that that's that kind of deep, reflective and internal work, exposing ourselves

to different ideas, seeing how we feel and respond to these different ideas, you know, creating a more coherent and refined argument. And that's ultimately, you know, how you develop a sense of personal independence and personal freedom. You know, we live in a culture that's very, that uses the word safety a lot. You know, you hear on campus, a safe space. We need to be safe for students. We need to be brave, we need to be more courageous. These are the types of values that I think we should be prioritising and kind of elevating in our society, not safety, not risk aversion, not kind of limiting our surroundings to our economic. chamber. I think that's how we really start to create an environment where we think

outside the box, innovate and kind of move beyond these very limiting constraints. And so you've graduated university not long ago, and you've touched on the campus and university culture a lot. How much responsibility do universities need to take for the current climate that we find ourselves in? I think a huge responsibility. I think for a long time, people thought that, you know, it was just these fringe students being kind of a bit zeal. being zealots and it didn't really mean anything or fade out. But actually that's not what's happened. We've seen it with the New York Times, for example.

I think it's the opinion editor, has been forced to resign for platforming a Republican defending Donald Trump because all of these new liberal, woke young people are kind of forcing the magazine to completely change its culture. So what has happened is these students that, and academics, obviously, have now obviously moved into everyday life and are now transforming the institutions. We've seen it with,

this whole situation with J.K. Rowling. So I think that the academics and that kind of limiting academic climate, which is in many ways the brain of our society, universities, that naturally then permeates as the educated class, then become the elite, the cultural and media elite. And so I think that that has a really big part to play. And I hope that, you know, going forward, universities wake up. I think now with COVID-19, they're facing a really huge funding gap in a funding vacuum.

So I think that this is the climate now for us to actually make some significant changes, but it can go either way. I really think so. It's been great chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We have just one more question for you. And it's the one we always finish with, which is what is the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? And so I guess I've touched upon it a little bit already. I think it is personal responsibility.

I think that we are very quick to blame external factors for our, situation and absolutely there is a role to play for that but I would really love to see far more people taking responsibility for their life shaping themselves as individuals and seeing how far they can go within their selves of an individual then within their families and communities and going beyond that not just automatically going for shaping society at large she's saying clean your room put your shoulders back go out into the world look the other person in the eye and some bloody backbone. But that's it, isn't it? Like, it's about recognising that, of course, external factors can and will affect your life and it's inevitable and we all get ill and all kinds

of things will happen. But if you take responsibility for your part, you'll find that 90% of the things you're unhappy with can be resolved through your own work, right? Exactly. Well, it's great to have someone like you very young and spreading that message to people. We really appreciate coming on the show and our view as well as well. So thanks very much. Where can people follow you and your work and what can people do to support the free speech union as well? Yeah, just sign up to freespiteunion.org but you can follow me on Twitter, Aniafilarin, or my website aniafilarian.

Thanks very much and thanks to tune in, guys. We'll see you very soon with another interview or a live stream. Make sure if you haven't checked out one of the limestones, they're very funny, especially when I have. Yeah, absolutely, and he's in no way a narcissist. We will see you soon, guys. Take care. And thank you very much for watching or listening.