TRIGGERnometry - Our Thoughts on Tommy Interview, Migrant Protests and Haters

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

Francis and Konstantin discuss the recent interview with Tommy Robinson, Konstantin's video on the migrant hotel protests, being called 'grifters', the state of London and talk of civil war. | We use Ground News to escape the echo chamber and stay fully informed. Go to https://ground.news/triggernometry to save 40% on the Ground News unlimited access Vantage plan. Triggernometry is proudly independent. Thanks to the sponsors below for making that possible: - Evening Being by Verso. Get 15% with code TRIGGER at http://evening.ver.so/trigger - Augusta Precious Metals: Protect Your Retirement with Physical Gold. Rated #1. Click to learn more: https://bit.ly/triggergold Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Substack! https://triggernometry.substack.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Shop Merch here - https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. 00:00 Introduction 01:46 Konstantin's Visit To The Migrant Hotel Protests 13:42 The Key Divides Between The Two Groups Of Protesters 20:03 Konstantin And Francis' Insights As Immigrants 30:41 The Tommy Robinson Interview And Thoughts On Multiculturalism 40:47 Reaction To The Tommy Robinson Interview And Being Called A Grifter 51:38 What We Made Of The Conversation With Tommy Robinson 59:03 This Is The Best Conversation With Tommy Robinson You Will See 01:02:48 Talk Of Civil War And The State Of London Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What did you make of it overall our conversation with Tommy? You know, it's very interesting because when I was talking to him and I was listening to him, he changed my mind on him as a person. Deal with this problem, because if you don't, you're making the inevitable inevitable. All credit to him, he went away, had to think. He did a public apology. And I actually respected Jimmy for this, but they never want to put themselves in the firing line. If you start speaking to people about it, if you go to Bradford's,

and you talk to people who have been affected by this issue. But they don't. They do not want their worldview to be shattered. And it would be if they actually reckoned with what they were being told. I'm really past it with these people. My message to them is, go fuck yourself. You went to a migrant hotel a couple of days ago. You went, it was in Canary Wharf.

What were your experiences of it? I think the key divide that I would say is, relax, relax, this isn't an ad. Did you know that you? you can watch this video without any advertising at all. No interruptions, no pop-ups, nothing. Go to Triggerpod.com. UK or click the link below and join thousands of our supporters

who watch all our interviews with exclusive content, ad-free. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at USAA.com. slash bundle. Restrictions apply. So Francis, we did one of these conversations between you and I a month ago, and we don't tend to do them this frequently, but after our interview with Tommy Robinson, the most requested thing on our substack community was that we talk about our thoughts on that interview,

but a bunch of other things have also happened in the meantime as well. So we just thought we'd take an hour and discuss a bunch of the things that our audience really cares about. Absolutely. So I think the first thing to do is you went to a migrant hotel a couple of days ago. You went and it was in Canary Wharf. It's a great video. If people haven't seen it, I really urge them to go and watch it. What were your experiences of it? Well, so I went along to the protest and it wasn't just a protest for or against. It was actually two groups of people. So there was a protest by a quote-unquote anti-racism protesters at five and then at six that very same day on a Friday. There was a, a, anti-migrant hotel protest.

And then eventually it was just both of them at the same time. And Canara Wharf is an interesting area because we actually, people won't know this, but there was a period in the show's history when we used to rent a big apartment in that area and we filmed in the living room of that, and the three of us, me, you and our then-producer Anton, we used to live there most of the time.

So we know the area well. And it was kind of fascinating, first and foremost, because there's some debate, by the way, in that video, I said that the hotel is about 470 pounds a night. That is what it says on Google and various other kind of booking places, but maybe it's not that all rooms are that price. Some rooms are maybe cheaper. But nonetheless, as you people will know,

the reason I'm talking about Canary Wharf is, as most people will know, who know London, it's a very expensive area. Absolutely. Basically where there's a big financial center there, and the only residential apartments there are for the people that work in these places. mostly in big skyscrapers, right? So it's a very expensive area. A hotel in this area is not going to be cheap, by definition.

So why is that happening? Why are people being put in these hotels? One of the reasons is, as I talked about in the video, is last year everyone will remember the riots. The riots were in very deprived areas. They were in very poor areas. And that's because if you want to save taxpayers' money when you're housing tens of thousands of illegal immigrants,

you're going to put them in cheap areas. That did not work out very well because if you have areas where people don't have a lot of jobs, don't have many opportunities, and at the same time, you're having this happen in their community where people who are really struggling are watching somebody be put up at taxpayers' expense,

be given spending money, all sorts of other benefits, access to the NHS, all of these things. That is a mixture that is just a recipe for disaster, particularly when the country is in the state that it's in anyway. right. So then they've started putting them in more wealthy areas, well, areas where maybe there's a less rooted community where people are less likely to kick off. Although, to be fair, it is on the border of the Docklands, which is like the Millwall Supporters area, as we saw in the video,

because a bunch of them did turn up, right? But I was interested to go for that reason to see, you know, how the government is effectively trying to avoid the scrutiny that they would get otherwise. The protest itself, not massive, I'd say probably a hundred, people on each side of the line. We'll talk to people on both sides. I had a lot of difficulty, and people will see that in the video, getting the anti-racism protesters to talk, because they seem very organized. I don't know why exactly, and that's something we should perhaps look into, but all their placards are professionally made. They look very organized. I think there's an organization called Stand Up to Racism that effectively organizes all of this stuff. And a lot of the people there,

they almost seem to me now I'm not making any judgment in the sense of I'm not saying they are paid protesters I don't I'm not claiming that I have no evidence for that but what they do seem I was going to use the term career protesters in the sense that

they seem to be people who go along to protest after protest after protest in different areas they get these professional in late placards there's a professional organizer they have a media strategy which is they don't what they said to me directly is we don't talk to in cells in their bedrooms.

I mean, they needed me to have an official journalist card to talk to me. So what I'm saying is they've been briefed effectively on how to behave, right? I was later able to talk to some perfectly nice people who were not of that type. There were just clearly people who'd come along and join that side. But the ones that were there at the beginning and the bulk of that group, they were people who clearly, if it's not their job, it's only the occupation. It's what they do, right?

They go along to this protest. And a point as well is that when I did, I went to a Palestine protest at UCLA, I had the exact same experience with the pro-Palestine protest. They refused to engage and they refuse to speak. So it seems to be a tactic not only over here, but also over there.

and for a variety of different issues as well. And one of the things we didn't include in the video as well is at the beginning when I was trying to speak to people, I did start speaking to a woman who was a local resident. And the difficulty I had, it might not be as interesting to other people as it is to me because I'm always obsessed about language. But there's obviously a debate about how to frame this issue.

Right. And there's different ways that you might describe people who have entered this country without having permission to do so, right? Most, I think, people who don't know too much about this issue, who are not partisan on it, will say that they're illegal immigrants, right? There's legal immigrants, which is people who came here by the proper process. And then there's people who entered this country without having permission to do so, right? Which is illegal, you would think.

But on the other side of that discussion, they, the term that they use either refugees or asylum seekers. And there are reasons for this. For example, I think under the 1951 convention, how you enter a country doesn't matter. If you apply for asylum, you're an asylum seeker or your refugee. You're not an illegal immigrant until I think a bill came in under Soila Bravaman, who actually made it illegal to enter a country without permission. So the moment I started talking to this woman, this isn't in our video.

And I said the words, illegal immigrant. She made a little, oh, you're one of them. you belong with the far right, go over there. Because language is partly how all of this is negotiated. So in the video, I'm using all three terms interchangeably because I'm trying desperately to get everyone's perspective. And I think most people who are reasonably minded will see, I am genuinely curious about why people think what they think.

I'm not trying to show them to be bad or nefarious or whatever. And another woman I talked again, this was not camera because there was a lot of shouting and whatever. I started, one of the things I found as well with the so-called anti-racism protesters is they are extremely skeptical of anyone asking them like follow-up questions. So if they say, you know, the far right are here to blah, blah, blah, blah. And you say, when you say the far right, who do you mean? They immediately say, well, you're the far right, then go over there, literally.

And one time you see it in the video, they say that I was being, forceful when I'm just asking them to talk to me. And another time, there was a journalist from a Turkish TV channel called TRT. I've actually been on it who interfered in an interview that I was doing and said, you're being provocative when I said to the woman that I was talking to. So when you said the far right, like, who do you mean? And she started saying, you're being provocative. And I was like, what do you mean?

And she's like, maybe you don't understand because you're a man, all of this other stuff. Tell me, what brings you here today? I live locally. in Poplar. I've lived here since the early 80s. I lived here before any of this was built. I used to be a council here many years ago when the fascist BMP council was elected. We've booted him off the Isle of Dogs and now we're going to get these people off the Isle of Dogs. Which people? Because the only people I see are the anti-racist protest, the anti-Faright protest. So who would you like to get out of here?

I think all the really ugly thugs that are just over there, you know, if that's a massive, Which one, sorry? What about the bloke who was just here? Well, that guy was annoying, but I think he's filming. But who are you talking about? No, he's a fascist. He's a film. Do you know him?

Is he certainly, look. Are you okay? Are you okay with this conversation? I'm not sure, actually. I'm wondering where you're coming from. I just, which people are you talking about? Because I walk past some guys and I asked him if they're here for the protest. He had like Marson and stuff.

And they said they're just here for the football and now they've disableness. So I don't see them. Well, there's several people around, particularly that bloat there. So, you know, maybe if you go back and have a look again, you'll see some very unsavory characters. And they're the danger, not the refugees. Uh-huh. And what are your... You don't have to talk to tell me that.

I'm sorry. I'm just telling... I'm just speaking to somebody and that's all right. But why are you interfering in my interview? Just telling her, if she's comfortable with this, then finally... She's an adult, she's perfectly capable. I don't know that. I don't speak on behalf of anybody.

Would you mind just stepping away while I'm doing this interview? I'm okay here. I think you belong on the other side of the road. How do you mean? How do I belong in the other side of the road? What was that about? What... I'm being aggressive.

I'm being aggressive. You're being aggressive. You're being aggressive. You're being provocative. So if someone says there are people on the other side of the street who are the problem and I say which people are they. You're being provocative to her. Could you explain how?

I can't answer that question. You just said I'm being provocative. I thought you're being provocative. In what way? I thought you... Thank you. Now we're asking each other if you're... I'm just asking what you mean when you say I was being provocative.

No, you don't, but you said I'm being provocative, so I'm wondering what you mean. You were being provocative. If you don't have the social awareness skills to know what's provocative or not, I really can't help you. I really can't help you. She said that there are people... Because you're a man and I'm a woman and you were also speaking to another woman. You wouldn't quite understand the nuances of that, but I was uncomfortable. I said...

You were uncomfortable. Okay. So there's a lot of this... like control going on. And therefore, it does not feel very organic to me. You see what I mean? Because it's all tightly controlled on that side. So that's what I would say about the kind of quo-unque anti-racian side.

On the other side, you know, you have a mix of people. There are some very reasonable concerned local residents. You had a bunch of Millwall type of, and I think they fact, in fact, they said it to me, that they were Millwall supporters. And whenever I tried to talk to them, a bunch of them had masks on, and they would say, I would just hear it for the football, mate.

And that was it. They wouldn't talk to you about anything. And just for clarification, for our overseas viewers, Millwall Football Club is a football club that has been notorious because it's association with violence and hooliganism.

Yeah. And is it fair to say racism as well? Yes. Yeah, yeah, we can say that. Yeah. I don't think they were known for their progressive. So, no, I'm not saying those

specific people that were there were all of those things, but I wouldn't want to be on the sharp end of a confrontation with them, let's put it that way. That was my impression, right? And there was one guy who turned up who clearly was off as not on something. It was shouting, bombed them, bomb them into the camera. We've got them on camera, I think you can see it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as always, there's a few kind of conspiracy people to the Great Reset and all this other stuff. You interviewed one of them. Yeah, I did. And she made a lot of good points and then talked about the Great Reset all in one. So, you know, what do you know?

But I think the key divide that I would say is, well, first of all, both sides are very angry, very, very angry. And that makes sense because if you're going to go to a protest, you probably are going to have to be quite angry. Most people have, especially when the summer is nice, there are three days of sunshine a year in England, you know, most people aren't going to be spending their Friday afternoon early evening doing that. But the main divide I would say is the central divide that I was able to discern is the people who are effectively there to say, oh, you know, illegal immigration, asylum, refugees, whatever, we need to be welcoming, whatever.

Their worldview is everyone is the same. And they are, it's the Beatles, imagine there's no borders. It's easy if you try. It's that worldview. and the people on the other side recognize what I think is true and we know this from the statistics that not all people,

not all cultures, not all ethnic groups behave in the same ways. You can say that they have the same dignity as a human being and should be having, should have access to the same human rights and all of that.

But that does not mean that they behave in the same ways. And we know, statistically speaking, that there are groups that are way more likely to commit certain crimes. Sexual assault,

for example, right, which is skyrocketing in Britain at the moment. And I think the protesters who are against housing asylum seekers, illegal immigrants in these hotels, recognize that reality. While the people on the other side are often, they've got a very nice and a very kind approach, but it doesn't necessarily grapple with the reality of this issue, which is when you have a bunch of young men come in from cultures where, let's be honest, they don't respect women,

especially women who are not of their tribe, of their religion, whatever, you're going to get problems. And we are sitting here today, recording this, on the day when 50,000 illegal immigrants have come into this country since the last election. Now, the last election was last summer. So in a year, 50,000 people have come. Now, what does that mean? What are those statistics?

When I came to this country, 1996 is when I moved. permanently to this country. Fifty-five thousand people a year came into this country legally. We now have that same number of people coming illegally every year. That is extreme. And when you do extreme things, you have to expect an extreme reaction, which is why I think there's so much tension about this issue now. And also as well, you have to factor in the economic situation in this country. We have a cost of living crisis. I know everything is a crisis in this country, but for the average person in this country, making it to the end of the month is a real struggle. So if you've done you, if you do your job, you're nine to five, whatever it may be,

and you put food on the table for your kids, you pay your rent, your mortgage, your bills, which are skyrocketed because of our delusions with the net zero and all the rest of it. And you make it to the end of the month. That for most people in this country is a win. That's how most people live. Now, if you see people coming over and getting housed in like a hotel, like the Britannia Hotel, which is a luxury hotel, and they get everything paid for, that quite naturally arouses anger and frustration, particularly if you're from a community, which is deprived, which is struggling, which you can see that there's homelessness, there's problems with drug addiction, services are being cut, and you're going, well, hang on,

Why is it that the money that should go to British people, everything's being cut, there is no money, we're consistently being told that we're bankrupt, yet we're housing migrants, you know, in luxury hotels, and they're getting given everything. And yet I can't get a GP and I've been a taxpayer for 30, 40, 50 years. Where's the fairness? So that is an added layer to it, is that people are really angry and frustrated and quite rightly so. what they see and they perceive is this, I mean, not a two-tier system, but certainly, certainly there's an injustice happening there. And they see it as preferential and they're angry. And they've got every right to be. So that is also a real, there's a real injustice there. And British people, people always go, oh, there's no teaching it's British culture, which is

obviously rubbish. One of the central facets of British culture is the importance of fairness. It's the importance of fairness, you know, that it's fair that you don't cheat, that it's, you know, that's, you know, be a good sport. The news moves fast, and it's not just about keeping up, it's about seeing clearly. In a world where headlines are constantly shifting and narratives change by the hour, understanding how a story is being reported is just as important as what the story is. That's why I use ground news. It shows you how coverage of any story differs across the political spectrum,

helping you break out of echo chambers and actually see the full picture. Take the recent landmark UK Supreme Court ruling on the legal definition of woman. Using Ground News, we can see that CNN, which leans left, ran with UK Supreme Court says legal definition of woman excludes trans women. The spectator, which leans right, led with the Supreme Court ruling is a victory for women. Same story, two completely different takes. Ground News makes these contrasts easy to spot by letting you compare headlines. at a glance. It also shows you ownership information, like the ownership status of both CNN and

the Spectator. My favorite feature is the Blind Spot feed. It surfaces stories being ignored by either the left or the right. Stories you might not even realize you're missing, so you can stay informed without being trapped in a single worldview. Click the link in the description or head to ground. dot news slash trigonometry for 40% off their unlimited advantage plan, the same one we use. More than a million people have already downloaded the Ground News app. If you care about seeing every side of the story, join them today. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool.

No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch.

Maybe there's no catch. Exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need a knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this tablewood? I think it's laminated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on. Pick up these may apply.

And you know, you and I've talked about this before, and your family immigrant background and my background as well helps to know this. It's not like this everywhere at all. And this idea that, you know, the high trust society. the Britain, let's be honest, used to be. Yes. Right. I remember how shocked my parents were when they could come to Britain and they could deposit money in a bank with just a signature or withdraw money from a bank with just a signature or do lots

of things with just, oh, just sign here. Yeah. That's how it was in the 90s, right? Remember that. Now, look, technology has changed and blah, blah, blah. But my point is, in Russia, you'd need to get like five documents with a stamp and a seal and a this and of that to get anything done because otherwise people would take advantage. of it. Of course. Because you said, you talked about this before, you know, in Venezuela, you were

saying, if I can screw you over and you let me, well, that's my job to screw you over, right? Yeah, that is how it works. And once more, you're the idiot because you let yourself be screwed over. Yeah. So you're stupid and I'm the smart one. Do you know, it reminds me of an experience I had once when I used to work as a translator. I once translated a contract that was being negotiated as it was being negotiated in the room. And I remember, after like a full hard days of negotiating between some Russian guys and some British guys. The Russian guy at the end, they went through, they signed everything, and at the end there were like empty spaces at the bottom of the page on a couple of pages.

And the Russian guy went through and like crossed them out so they couldn't be filled in any way. And the other guy, the British guy looked at it and joked and he went, well, I can see this is a relationship based on trust, Andre. And the other guy looked at him and it went, the last time I didn't do this, it cost me $5 million. Yeah. Because that's how it is, right? So when we talk about Britishness, including fairness, and by the way, we joke about

queuing, right? But queuing is an incredibly important, tiny little expression of civilization, which is we all agree to play by the system and rules so that it's no longer about who's got the sharpest elbows. That's what civilization actually looks like. Now, if you think about what illegal immigration is, it's fundamentally people queue barging. Yeah. It's cue barging and on top of that, they're getting into a place into which they're

not supposed to be getting into. Exactly. It's like we're all queuing to use the energy of getting into a nightclub, the one in one out, the policy that we will talk about. And these people aren't even queuing up. They're not even jumping through. They're just literally going through barging pass the bouncer, going to the bar. Getting a couple of free drinks and grabbing the waitresses ass. Yeah. And they're just. then going and sitting down. And then everybody else is going, well, hang on a minute, is that, and our politicians are going, well, that's fine. It's their human rights. It's their human rights. And more to the point, if you get upset about it, there's certain people. Now, thankfully,

they're decreasing in number because the problem is now become so undeniable that they can't actually push back against it anymore. But there was a point where like, why are you getting upset with the people barging into the nightclub. Why are you getting upset? You must be racist. Is that it? Is it because they're brown or they're Muslim? And you're like, well, no, because I don't like people barging in because it is not fair.

And for a system to work, for any system to work, there needs to be rules, and the rules need to be applied and enforced. And by the way, you know, I heard a talking point from one of the people on the protest. She didn't say to me, she said to someone else. And she said, well, of course these people are racist. Look, they didn't have a problem with Ukrainians coming here as refugees. Right. But that isn't how Ukrainians came here.

No. Ukrainians applied to come here. I know this because I have Ukrainian friends who've come to Britain as refugees. They applied through the proper process. And those of them that didn't get approved didn't come. They didn't travel to France. They didn't go to Calais. They didn't sleep in the tent or in the forest.

And they didn't get on a boat and then they didn't barge into this country illegally. And they weren't brought here by people smugglers. Right. And so this is kind of the thing that people need to understand is the British people, and I think this is worth restating again, even now, even when the country is at fever pitch, even when people are becoming very concerned about this issue, the British people are incredibly welcoming and tolerant of people from other countries. They are incredibly, incredibly willing to help and support those in need.

And you can see it with the fact that we have welcomed hundreds of thousands of people from Hong Kong, from Ukraine, and from other parts of the world recently, where we're like, well, the country is a war. Of course we're going to help out, right? But what we do not appreciate is people take in the piss. And what we don't appreciate as well, let's be honest, a lot of these people are not refugees. Yeah. They're just not. They're not refugees. They're not coming from countries that are a war. They're coming from poor countries. They're coming from countries that are not great places to live. I don't blame them for wanting a better life, right? But the fact is the reason we have a visa system and an immigration system and the reason we have rules

is because we do not want everyone who would like to come here to come here. That's just, that's the way a country works, right? That's the point of the rules. Exactly. So people cannot be breaking them. They just can't. And this is what people don't understand. So everybody can drink.

So when I was teaching, I taught in very deprived areas, very, very deprived areas. And I taught kids who were... Francis, you know, You've said that so many times, but I don't think we've ever delved into it. And I think a lot of people don't actually know what that means. Can you paint us a picture of when you say a deprived error, a lot of people have not taught in those schools. They have not lived in those communities.

What do you mean? So what I mean is that you will go every day into a school, which is minority white, where a lot of the kids, the vast majority, will be on free school meals. A lot of them will be first-generation immigrant background, not necessarily from different, not necessarily non-European, there will be Europeans there, but quite a lot of the kids will be from a refugee background. So I taught Iraqi refugees, I taught Syrian refugees, I taught Afghanistan refugees from Afghanistan,

little children, as well as a whole plethora of other children. When a child comes from a different part of the world that is non-English speaking, it costs a lot of money to support that child. You need to get specialist teachers who are English-speaking. who are trained to teach English as an additional language. EAL is what it's called. Now, if you don't have that, if you don't put that in place, then what you are effectively doing is dooming a child to failure

because you were just dropping him into a classroom with 30 other children. A lot of them who've got a lot of needs, because this is the poorest of the poor. So there will be kids there who are autistic and are sometimes non-verbal. So you've got those types of kids. You've got kids who have got dyslexia. You've got kids who have got really serious, comes from deprived backgrounds. What you're talking about is a lot of them don't have dads around.

A lot of them have experienced violence in the home. Addiction in the home. Addiction in the home. So you've got all of these different types. And it's 30 of them in a class. And it's 30 of them in a class. And you've got to teach them. And you've got to ensure that they all make progress.

And you've got kids who have potentially have the ability to go to university, as well as kids who intellectually are very, very, very low ability and need additional support. Yeah, the only reason I was asking is I think it's important for people to understand what you're talking about. You do a really great job of talking about this in your upcoming book, describing all of that stuff in a funny way. But you were saying, you know, having taught in these deprived areas, it gives you a perspective

on this issue. It gives you a perspective because what you effectively see is then they bring in these children, and these children don't have English as a first or as a first language, or even a second language. Some of them, they don't even speak English. Now, some of them haven't even been to school for a number of years because they've been refugees. So maybe they lived in Syria, and then they've been into a variety of other countries before making their way to Britain. So education, they're two, three, or even five years behind. And then you drop that child. into a classroom.

And you're going, oh, they're going to be able to perform and access to curriculum like everyone else? Well, look, the reality is, my view on that is actually, you know, to the extent that Britain, democratically speaking, wants to have some refugees come. Absolutely. Right? Then we could deal with that.

We could get the right support in place. But not when the numbers are like this. Like, if we took 1,000 Syrians over five years and we made sure that they were from a background that was compatible, maybe they were Christians fleeing, persecution in Syria, et cetera, then you could put some resources in place to get extra English or whatever it is you need. But when it's like this, when you're basically being swamped,

when the number of people coming illegally, the same number that were coming legally 20 years ago, at that point, 30 years ago actually, I'm older than I think in my head, right, 30 years ago, then at that point, the entire system becomes overwhelmed. And then, by the way, it's not just those children that suffer. I bet you you had some working-class British kids who were probably the worst off of the lot in those classrooms.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. And they're getting screwed as well. And they're getting screwed because you only have a finite amount of resources. So what eventually happens is that everything gets spread so thinly that the final result is everybody loses, because the system simply can't cope. So you can have this utopian world view in which you say, let's fling open our borders and let's accept everybody.

Okay, fine. But who's going to pay for it? Because it costs a lot of money to be able to integrate these children. And I agree we should accept refugees. But what we need to do is have a very honest and direct conversation, even a challenging conversation, I'd say, and go, look, what are the numbers? Is it 20,000? Is it 50,000?

But let's be honest, Francis. it's not just about the numbers. And this is where we come to our interview with Tommy Robinson because I thought that we'll talk about a lot, there's a lot to discuss in that interview. But I think the most profound point he made is actually in the substack portion of the conversation,

which people can go and watch if they want at Triggerpot.com.com. When we were talking, and he basically said, you know, Angela Merkel, David Cameron, they all say multiculturalism failed. Everyone says multiculturalism's failed. And he's like, no, it hasn't.

There's not multiculturalism that's failed. What? And, you know, I have been saying this in a more diplomatic way for a long time, but let's do it like this, right? You co-host with me a YouTube channel that has focused on the immigration issue quite a bit, right? Off the top of your head, what would you say are the top three issues that you would associate with Ukrainian immigration in this country, the problems they've caused? It sounds like a joke. The only thing I can, is that woman who. moved in with that bloke. And then he saw his wife, saw the young attractive Ukrainian refugee,

and then went, mate, Eastern European women are brilliant. What can I say? Yeah. Do you see my point? What about Hong Kongers? Tens of thousands of Hong Kongers have moved to Britain. They're probably very concentrated in London that they caused. What are the problems that we, are there Hong Kongese grooming gangs that we're aware of? Are there Hong Konganese crime syndicates, right? Do you know, there's a place called New Moulden. where I grew up in South London. 97% of the Korean population of the UK live in New Moulden. They cause one problem.

The driving is fucking dreadful. It sounds like a racist joke, but it actually is. But apart from that, I've taught, and I taught in schools in that area, the kids are well behaved, the parents are all engaged, two parent families, they care passionately about education, a large portion of the kids want to go on and then go to university. and you go to New Moulden, it's clean, it's nice, you know, and you also get a great career.

So, exactly. No, that's the most important thing for you, obviously. And we could go down the list, but I think everybody understands the point that I'm making. Right. It is not immigration. Look, mass immigration is a problem because when you have these large numbers

coming so quickly, it's difficult. But broadly speaking, it's not people coming from other countries. It's people who are coming and, bringing things with them that we do not want in this country, right? People who are, as a friend of Richard Minneton, who's a former guest of us, by the way, that episode has just hit a million views. Every single one of those is fully deserved. He messaged me saying the distinction is between people who are fleeing oppression,

who are bringing oppression. And that's really what we're talking about, right? Is it's problems with very specific communities. And I'm not saying that I know exactly how to slice and divide it. You know, Tommy's view is the problem is, Islam, I think that's maybe a little bit, I think that's probably too generalizing because the point I made to him is like, Omani, people from Oman in Britain or from Saudi Arabia or from lots of parts of the Middle East are not causing problems in this country. So when you say the problem is Islam,

maybe what he means is the doctrine of Islam. And we talked a lot about that in the interview in the last part, which I thought was the best part of it. But my point is, When we just talk about immigration generally, outside illegal immigration, which is just wrong and shouldn't be happening, I think he's onto something very much when he talks about the fact that the problem is not universal to immigration. The problem is within very particular ways of behaving that do seem to come from very particular groups of people. And the thing that I find very interesting is you see these left-wing people, or very, not left-wing, but these progressives who talk. about this issue in the manner that they talk about through this, I would call it a utopian lens. It's a utopian lens.

Let's open up the borders. It's easy if you try, all of this worldview. Have they been to Bradford? Have they been to a lot of these deprived communities up north? They haven't been. They haven't been. They haven't been to a lot of these, you know, Telford. They haven't been to these places.

so they haven't seen the reality. And it's far easier to be utopian if you haven't seen the brutal reality of what these policies entail. But don't they think that all people are the same, therefore the fact that these communities that you're talking about are essentially no longer England?

The fact that I've just said this out loud to them would be horrific. Yes, I agree. But I think there comes a point where you can have an idea in your head, but if you go somewhere and you're confronted with the reality that utterly obliterates your fantasy. But what I'm saying to you is, what is it that obliterates their fantasy in Bradford?

What is it? The grooming gangs. But the grooming gangs, you know, it's like they all say, well, white people commit rape. But if you, it's... Are you saying there's something wrong with women walking around in the book? Are you saying there's something wrong with the population of a major town in Britain being majority Muslim? Is that what you're saying? Because to these people, those are things that they wouldn't even consider as problems out loud anyway.

But if you look, if you investigate into this issue, if you look into it, if you start speaking to people about it, if you go to Bradford and you talk to people who have been affected by this issue. But they don't. And this is my point. They don't. They don't on purpose. Yeah. And this is my point.

then you cannot deny the brutal reality of what these policies have created. No, you can't. And this is why you and I have been on a journey, because this is the thing. I remember Emily Maitliss when they had Rupert Lowe on news agents. I don't know. Maybe she has interviewed grooming gambit teams. I don't know. But I think it's quite difficult to maintain the sort of pretenses that these people do. Once you've sat across, as you and I have done, a number of young women who've had, just the most horrific experiences that you would not wish on your worst enemy

and to listen to them talk about the fact that they were targeted because they were white. That's what happened. They were targeted because they were seen as the other in their own country. And once you have had that experience of talking to somebody like that and you've sat across from them

and you have heard their story, it never leaves you. And it changes how you see this issue. It just does, which is why all these people avoid doing it. And it makes me so angry. I'm getting emotional, which is rare for me. But those experiences, those interviews we've done with victims of grooming gangs are some of... I'll be honest to you.

I do not look forward to them. No. I do not because it's horrific. And it's not like I'm the victim in that situation exactly. But I'm just saying that could be why they avoid doing that. But I think another part of the reason they avoid doing that is they do not want their worldview to be shattered. And it would be if they actually reckoned with what they were being told. Yeah, because I remember the last interview we did with Maggie Oliver and Jade,

I had a meeting with my director for my stand-up, and we were sitting down and we write together. And so I finished the interview. I went to London. We went to a coffee shop. I ordered some food. got a coffee and we sat down to write. And I just couldn't, I just couldn't write. I was trying and I was trying to be funny

and she was going to me, what's up, what's happened? And I went, I just interviewed a woman who was a grooming gang victim who told me about how she got gang raped by 10 men when she was 14 years old. They pride her with drink and then they gang raped her in a toilet at McDonald's. and she went, Francis, I don't think now is the time to try and write comedy.

And I then went and did a comedy show in the evening and it wasn't good. I mean, like, because... Another victim of Greenpeace. Yeah, yeah. I'm the real victim, mate. No, but it's because you don't realize when you listen to these stories, just the profound impact, not that it has on you, because you're watching a fellow human being suffer.

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Me again. That's just $100 a month for four lines on Unleasing. limited welcome. Plus four phones, no trade-in needed. Call me. It's mom. America's Best Network, Verizon. That's the one we're talking about. I'll send you text. America's Best Network based on Root Metrics, best overall mobile network performance, U.S. second half 2025, four two lines and a limited welcome and auto pay. See Verizon.com for details. I thought that was probably the most powerful thing about our conversation with Tommy, and he mentioned this to you. He said, you know, that when you were talking about,

Sir David Ames, and he said, you know, that emotion you're feeling, I can see it. Now, Imagine what it's like for people where in our towns, a lot of this has been happening. And we know the people. They are friends. There are our neighbors, whatever, you know. Because to a lot of people, and look, this was us as well before we, like seven years ago, before we knew anything about it. You read about something in the paper and then you go to work and, oh, you know, grooming guys. Okay, cool.

Oh, oh, Donald Trump's done this. Oh, this. And you just skip over these realities. But I think one of the things, Tommy is very. good at is bringing these stories to life. And I'm very glad we had him on. And I know you've had people from the comedy industry messaging you saying you're evil and whatever for us having that conversation. I, the only messages I've had, this is from people like I told you in the, like I told Tommy in the main interview, in the media, in politics, in comedy, in entertainment,

mainstream people, the people you turn on your TV tomorrow, you see these people. they all said it was the best interview we've ever done. Yeah. And one of the things that a lot of people said, which I really think is true, even though it's praise, but I do think it's true, is that very often when people have conversations with Tommy,

it's either he's the devil or he's Jesus. Yeah. He's the Savior. Whereas I thought we'd just talk to him like we would to anyone else, which is like, you know, I totally agree with this, but what about that? And we were fair. Yeah, and that's it.

I found it very interesting, the pushback I got from some people in the comedy community, because they use this word with me that has been used against you very recently, which is the word grifter. And I interpret that word, I've read a bit about that word, I interpret that word to me, somebody who takes positions or has opinions that they don't believe in purely for notoriety or financial gain.

And I find it very interesting because, to me, what it shows from the progressive mindset, this person who used that word against me, is that they can't believe, that they are so morally pure and correct, that they can't believe that somebody would disagree. And if you disagree, it's not because you think differently. It's because you were cynical. And that is a very interesting worldview in that everybody believes this deep down

because we know it's true. So if you disagree, that means that you are immoral. and you know the truth, but you deny it. It's very similar to this opinion that the whole world is exactly like us, which we talked about in our interview with Tom Holland, this kind of Christian worldview. But the whole world ain't Christian, my friend.

And you know what? I'm really past it with these people. My message to them is go fuck yourself. Honestly, I'm serious. Go fuck yourself. Because if you don't want to engage with these conversations, I respect that. But when you judge people

without knowing what motivates them without having sat in their shoes walked in their shoes, sat in their chair, had the conversations that we've had, I don't give a fuck what they think. I'm tired of this shit.

And you know, you mentioned Jimmy the Giant who I brought on to have, he did a whole video calling me and a bunch of other people grifters. And that is actually a feel good story because the reason I brought him on our channel was, you know,

I believe in educating the next generation. generation, so to speak. And I've had it, I've had, you know, we've been doing it for seven years, for the last five years. We've had to take a lot of criticism from a lot of people and people are entitled to criticize us as we are entitled to criticize other people. But what I won't stand for is people, uh, intuiting our motives in an unfair way and lying, right? So I brought him on and, you know, he had a bit of a meltdown, let's be honest. Um, and which I didn't expect. I brought him on to basically say, look, you've said these things.

that aren't true. How about you take it back or we have a respectful conversation, whatever. You didn't take it well. But all credit to him, he went away, how to think. Well, you did another video, having to go to me, but he went away, how to think. I think he got a lot of pushback from his own audience, among other things, which is, you know, I respect them for that. He went away, how to think. And then he took it down and he apologized. He did a public apology, which is why I was like, you know what, great, let's take down that interview that doesn't make him look good. Yeah. He's learned his lesson, I think. That interview is still there.

If he starts having it go loads of other people unfairly, that interview can always go back up. But I think, you know, I had a chat with them privately. I reassured him there was no ill feeling or anything like that. But my broader point is I just think I'm past the point of like caring what all these people think. If you want to lie about us or about me or about you, come and make your case. Yeah. Come and make your case.

And if you can't, well, you're going to look like an idiot. Yeah. And the thing that I always come back to is that they never, and I actually respected Jimmy for this, but they never want to put themselves in the firing line. It's why people who all criticize us, they always say, you're a right-wing channel, you're only interviewed right-wing people. And it's like, well, we work so hard. Yep. Our, the guy who books out.

I would say 75% of our bookers energy is spent on trying to book. left-wing guests. Yeah, and every time we have a booking meeting, we go to him, Billy, how about some left-wingers? And he's like, I've tried. Yeah. I've emailed, I emailed them every month, and then you can go through the list of progressives. Owen Jones, Zara Solana, Jeremy Corbyn, Akala. I can't even, we've, look, if Akala was a woman, they would be a police person at our door arresting us for harassment. That's how many times we've asked. Well, to the point, and we've wanted to have him on for years. is. We've invited him on hundreds of times at this point, probably. And to the point where

actually one of his people, he's doing some kind of documentary about race and Britain, they asked me to participate. And I said, great. And they were like, okay, he'll come to your studio. I was like, great. In that case, let's do an episode of trigonometry. Dead. Dead. And Owen Jones, Ash Sarker, they both have said in the past they would come on the show. Not anymore. Gary Stevenson, we have to hold our hands up. Our previous booker fucked it up. Gary did actually turn up for an interview and we were in America at this point because a mistake was made. I actually saw Gary at the protests in London and I apologize to him. But, you know, if he doesn't come on because of that, you can understand it.

Although I do think he makes good points and I'd love to have him on. The point being, we tried to engage with everybody and in the past, we have had the co-fang of the Extinction rebellion on. We've had a shit ton of left. He's a Mark Steele on. Lefty, died in the world, lefty comedian. Loads of people. We could rattle off a list. We're interested in talking to everybody. But there is this, you know, six degrees of white supremacy, I call it, on the left,

which is like if you've ever talked to anyone who sat next to someone whose dogs went for a walk with the other dogs person, then you're beyond the pale and we don't talk to you. But I think I have to say this, and this is not self-aggrandizement, but I think, in the wake of our interview with Deborah Francis White, in the wake of our interview with Jimmy, or my conversation with Jimmy the Giant, and one or two other things we've done, a lot of people are worried that if they come on here and they're talking bullshit,

they're going to get found out. And by the way, they should be. Because that's what we're going to do. And not just with the left, we've just released an episode with Ann Coulter in which I don't think she comes out of that well either because she's talking shit. Yeah.

And that is our job. That is our job. and I've always said this, and that it is our job to be, is when the moment a guest is sitting across from us, we have to look at the arguments that they are putting forward, and we challenge the argument. If we feel that if there is something awry or a miss, or even as simple as we just want a point clarified. And that is our job. And to me, as the channel grows and it becomes more prominent, because it will become more prominent. because eventually this channel will be the place where you come, if you have a point of view,

to come and sit and put forward your opinions or in your views of the world, whatever and whatever is your speciality. This is going to be the place. It already is, but it's going to become even more so. And I think it's going to start to reflect worse and worse on those people who actually duck the challenge. And I'm using those words intentionally. they duck it because the reality is they don't want their opinions and their arguments to be challenged. Well, the thing is, you make it sound like it's combative, but that's not really how we do it.

Like, for example, Deborah Francis White, we gave her, like, loads of time. And it's only when she started going after me and acting like a dick, basically, that I was like, well, you know what? If you're going to play this game, well, I can play this game. Yeah. And I'll probably play a little better than you, if that's what you want to do. Yeah. But if she wanted to have a reasonable and respectful conversation, that's what we wanted. That's what we've always wanted.

It's why when Jimmy the giant behave in the way that he did, okay, you know, you want to play that game, you're going to look like a cunt here, right? But if you want to be reasonable and apologize and take back what you said, I'm not trying to hold grudges against people. Yeah. You know, and that's, our approach is always respectful. but if you say something that I don't agree with, we'll push back on it.

Like in the Tommy interview, when he said, oh, I don't want to be fighting. I'm like, come on, Tommy, right? And we had, and by the way, I have to say, to his credit, any time we push back on him, he almost surprised me with how receptive he was of disagreement. Yeah, he was. He would actually stop and then just go, okay,

and then you would talk about it. So when he said, you know, countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, and I was like, Tommy, those are all, respect, those are two very different countries. And it was like, yeah, you're right. Yeah. That's the thing I found very, and I think, you know, he's obviously been at this for a very long time. Yeah. But I just, it just felt like you're talking to somebody who's reasonable, right? Now, you might not agree with all of their opinions. Yeah. But they're still, the way they behave is reasonable, right? Do you see what I mean? Yes. There's a difference between those two things. What did you make of it overall,

our conversation with Tommy? You know, it's very, very, interesting because when I was talking to him and I was listening to him, it changed my mind on him as a person. I thought what was actually very good about him is that he acknowledged that looking back when he was talking about the EDL years, he was saying, look, to be put it bluntly, it wasn't a good look. A group of young men turning up demonstration, that can look. The optics of that are antagonistic. They just are. So I was very, I actually, I just respected how he said, look, you know, looking back on it, we didn't handle these things well. But also, I think a lot of the reason he got the flack he did as well is because he told the truth.

And he told the truth before it was fashionable. And the moment you tell the truth before it's fashionable, or it's before it's deemed to be politically correct, or within the Overton window, or however you want to describe it, people aren't going to want to engage with it because they know that fundamentally you're right. And if they know that you're right and then they can't engage with it, that means that they become frustrated. Frustration leads to anger and anger leads to a backlash. So what do they do? They slam you and they smear you. But he was right about the grooming games. And he's right when he talks about extremist Islam and he's right when he talks about there is a problem with radicalisation. There are 40,000 Muslims in this country on a terrorist watch list. That's unacceptable. It just is.

You can dress it up any way you want and you can say, oh, it's a religion. But the point is, why aren't there 40,000 Sikhs? Why aren't there 40,000 Hindus? Why aren't there 40,000 white British people in Texas, watch? They're the majority. Yeah.

Right, but they're not on a terrorist watch list. Why is that? Yeah. Why is that? Because there is a very real problem within Islam with this radicalization. And until we actually sit down and just admit that and just say, look,

There is an issue. How are we going to tackle this issue? And I don't care. Call me Islamophobic. Call me racist. Call me whatever you want. It doesn't matter. Because all you're trying to do is silence me and sidetracked from having an actual discussion, which is a discussion we need to have. And you know what's interesting is watching that Jeremy Paxman interview from all those years back. Jeremy Paxman is a very intelligent man. Yeah. And you can see that the way he tries to derail what Tommy's saying. Now, at the time, I probably wouldn't have noticed it, but now when I've been on the other end and know what the media can be like when they're trying to misrepresent. I'm going, wait, he's talking about,

there's a problem within this community that's specific to that community. And Jeremy Paxman is using these like 12-year-old counter-arguments, like a 12-year-old, like a teenager, it doesn't know what they're talking about. Yeah. Like, yeah, but you're saying why people don't, no, no, that's not, that's just stupid.

That is very, very stupid. And when we sat with Tommy, I just thought that on a lot of these issues, he has been very badly misrepresented. That I, as I made clear on the interview, I don't think he's an angel. I don't think he himself claims. And in fact, you could see that towards the end of the interview, he actually conceded my point. He said, you know, as you said, I don't mind a punch up. We all had a laugh. Yeah.

Because that is his background. I don't think he's the same man today as he was 20. years ago. No. Do I think it's wise for him to be walking around in central London without security or just a few friends with him? Probably not. Do I think there's probably situations where he could extricate himself a little bit more,

but he wants to stand up and be strong? Because he's probably got fucking PTSD and he spent shit times a ton of tons of time in isolation in prison, solid chicken firemen and all. You know, like you can see how his experiences have made him into that person. It doesn't mean that being that person is necessarily the very possible best way to be, but that doesn't mean that he's evil or he is wrong about the main thrust of his argument. And this is really the thing that fundamentally matters about anyone, in my opinion, when we have them on the show, is the main thrust of what they're saying, true, valid, and important.

And with him, it is. Now, if you want to go and pick little things or big things that he's done wrong that you don't agree with, But that's fine and you can discredit anyone. You can discredit me. You can discredit you. You can discredit anyone you want. Anyone you want, right? Look, the big podcast is, there's hip pieces in all of us, right?

The Joe Rogans of the world have been attacked a thousand times. He's racist. He's this. He's anti-simile. He's all of these things, right? It happens to everybody. But the main point is, is the central message and the central thrust of what they're saying true. With Tommy, it is.

Yeah. It is. right and so and you can see by the way you know one of the gratifying things for us is that interview as we sit here today is on 1.2 million views on youtube a shit ton of audio downloads as well and Tommy's done every podcast under the sun in the last few weeks and they're not getting those numbers now you know we've got a bigger channel than most people who are having those conversations and it's no disrespect to them they all do great work but I think a lot of people wanted to watch us have that conversation because they know that we're coming at it from actually a balanced, reasonable place where we will offer fair pushback and we will not pick fights for no reason to try and look good at his expense. And that's why the title of it, an honest conversation with Tommy Robinson, is what it was. I'm very proud of it. Yeah, so am I. So am I. And I stand by it.

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I think that is the best conversation with Tommy Robinson that you're going to see. Because, like we've said, you get two main approaches. You get the mainstream media approach, which is to paint him as a second coming of Hitler. Or you've got the new media approach, which is what a lot of people have done, which he eulogize him and say that he's a saint. When he's neither of those two things, he's a human being. With his flaws, he's made mistakes. He's far from perfect.

he admits that himself. And we have a conversation. But I think the thing that I took away from it, and I remember, like, you know, I never, I always forget, and we've spoken about this, you know, the impact that our conversations have. And I remember the, after we finished the conversation, I remember going home, and I've spent a lot of time and just thinking about that. thinking about the conversation, thinking about what happened, who he is, and it came back to me, it came back to the central point, is that what he was saying is true. And actually, everything else is kind of irrelevant? Is it true what he's saying? If it's false, if it's wrong, then that's what we should be focusing on. Well, I think we could maybe inject a little nuance into that.

beyond that, which is, I think in his diagnostic analysis of where what the problems are, he's right. We can then talk about, well, what are the solutions? And when we talk to him, you know, it's vague. Yeah. Right? And but Tommy's not a politician.

It's not his job to do that, right? So when he says, well, you know, 23% of Muslims want Sharia law, they need to go, that's kind of, to convert that into policy at government level. That's impossible. is a challenge to put it mildly, right? We don't know what that means or what that looks like.

But in terms of his analysis of the situation where it is, the diagnosis, what he's saying about the problems, he's 100% right. And people can pretend he's not, whatever they want, right? But he's right. So then it's up to people whose job it is to do policy to get elected and then take some of the things that he's highlighting, which they're aware of now, thanks to him and lots of other people as well,

and to convert them into actionable policy that's going to make this country safer, more cohesive to make sure that these things aren't happening anymore. So in terms of him doing his job of telling people what has been going on, I've got no issue with it. And the reality is, look, they have managed to silence this issue for far and far too long. They have smeared, they have shut people up, people have lost their jobs. You can't do that anymore. The problem now is become so, it's become undeniable. And now that it has become undeniable,

the government is now faced with a challenge and the authorities are faced with a challenge. Are you going to tackle it? Or are you not? And that's where we are. That's where we are. I'm sure Keir's time. I will get a story.

Yeah, mate, he smashed the illegal. He smashed the gangs. He smashed the gangs. The gangs are super smashed. The gangs are super smashed. So where are we going to be? because if you look at the temperature of our country at the moment, the bloke said it in when you,

sorry, when you went to the protest, it's like a volcano. And it is like a volcano. And we all know it's like a volcano. It feels as if it could go off at any second at any moment. It only needs one thing to trigger it and the whole thing is going to blow. And that is not sustainable. No. Well, I certainly hope that doesn't happen.

but the only way that won't happen is if the government and the people in charge and the police and the immigration authorities actually address the problems because I saw somebody on Twitter I think it was Danny Finkelstein a Times writer who was saying loads of people and seemed to be really keen

on us to have a civil war I don't remember the exact language but it was something, but he was basically saying loads of people want this to happen. No, no Danny, nobody wants this to happen. Nobody wants violence on the streets. nobody wants anti-immigration protest

to get violent. There's never a good thing. It's not going to end well. It's not going to end well for the people that participate. It's not going to end well for immigrants. It's not going to end well for our country. It's not going to end well for anybody.

We do not want it to happen. But that is why we are calling on the government and the authorities to actually do your fucking job. Deal with this problem. Because if you don't, You're making the inevitable inevitable. And just on that point, I certainly, and of course you, I don't want that to happen.

In fact, I'm going to be, I think if something, if there isn't some kind of intervention by the government, if things don't change, I'm worried that it might be inevitable. And I'm going to change the word worried. I'm going to say terrified. I've seen what happens when law breaks down. I was in Venezuela many times where the government, where the military had to come on. to the streets, that is not a place that you want to be. That is not a country that you want to live in. That is not a society that you want to participate in because what that is, is a society that is sick, potentially terminally ill. And you do not want to get to that place. And my worry

is that we're on a trajectory to that place. And that's what I'm terrified of. And people need to stop confusing these things on purpose. We're not saying that this is, and I think no one is saying this is what we want to happen. We're just saying if you don't address the real concerns that people have, this is what will happen or could happen. And we'd like that not to happen. It's not that complicated. It's not that complicated. But again, it's far easier to then target what somebody like us is saying or somebody else in the media and going, oh, you want this to happen so then you don't have to engage with the issues. Because that's the easy thing to do. It's the coward's way to approach it.

Yeah, and this is where a lot of this stuff comes in. I think the independent, I think, had an article over the weekend in which they basically talked about the fact that most people misunderstand the realities of immigration. So they basically showed that a lot of people overestimate the amount of legal immigration and they think the number is bigger than legal immigration. And this is this kind of, this sort of Islington, oh, look at these plebs, they're so thick. thing. Well, actually, the general public, including people who live in Islington, massively misunderstand lots of statistics. But the question

again is, are they wrong on the main thrust of what they're saying? Yes, they may overestimate the amount of legal immigration. Okay, fine. Are they wrong that there is way too much illegal immigration? No, they're not wrong. So, if you want to do what these people did during Brexit, and I remind people, they can have another drink. This is something of a catchphrase we haven't used for about five years. We both voted Romaine, right? But we got angrier and angrier watching these same people do this over Brexit.

Oh, everyone who worked for Brexit is thick. How did that work out? Did that work for you? Did just go, oh, these people are stupid. Half my country is stupid. We're just going to point our finger at them when they express their concerns about what's happening to their country. You want to just do that again? You were happy with the results last time?

And look, we've also seen Sadiq Khan, I think, came out recently and was talking about how crime in London has gone down. The city is safer than it's ever been. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to, and I live in a very kind of shi-she part of North London. You know, everybody's there and everybody's work, oh my God, you know, there's no black people, but everybody has a BLM flag, that type of place. I went to the off-license. Very nice off-license. I had to buzz in.

I had to buzz in and wait. I was like, why don't I have to buzz in and wait? So I walked in and I said, why do I have to buzz in? He went, because otherwise people just come in and they just take stuff and they walk out. He's probably just been reading too many right-wing news stations. Yeah.

But this is the narrative. This is the narrative from these people. We lived, during the pandemic, we lived in central, if it was effectively central London. It is. Yeah. It was on one.

It was EC1. EC1, right? And in the one, year, one year we lived in this place, right? You were mugged, nearly mugged by a guy with a giant knife when you challenged him, he pulled out this knife and threatened you, right? Our producer was attacked outside of a shop. Yeah. Right. I remember my pregnant wife walking along, some guy basically came up to him, was like, I'm a nice, clean boy. Come with me. Yeah. Right. And one time I turned up to record an interview, and there was a guy with a machete outside, just chopping at a tree

while a bunch of people were just screaming at him to calm down. We all had a bad thing, man. That's within one year. Your parents were the house burgled. I had my car broken into. What the fuck are these people talking about? Yeah. What are they talking about? Yeah.

And then they talk about, you know, this... Fun tests are up. Tube crime is up like crazy. And they say things, oh yeah, car stereos haven't been nicked. They're down. You're going, well, no one's got car stereo anymore. Yeah. Everyone plays it via their Spotify.

And a lot of people no longer bother to report crime because there's no fucking point. Yeah. There's no point. unless you were trying to get an insurance reference number, I mean, we saw it in our interview with Dr. Lawrence Newport, right? When he's basically, he put a bike outside Scotland Yard with a tracker on it, it got nicked, he tracked it to the place where it was being stored,

and the police wouldn't do anything. My car, which was broken into, was under a CCTV camera. Did you give me a crime reference number in an email? I had to email the police, right? Of course no one in that type of society is going to report. poor crime. What's the point? Of course. And they want to tell us it's fine. It is not. And what the public feel, and quite rightly, in my opinion, is that they're being gaslit. They are being gaslit. And what happens with that is you can only gaslit people so many times

before there is anger and there's resentment and that is bubbling. And that will remain bubbling. And then it will get higher and higher and higher just like, you know, the pot. until it boils over when they can't take it anymore. The pressure becomes too much. And again, I do not want this to happen. And I'm actually terrified because I'm starting to think it might be inevitable, if I'm being honest. I'm starting to think that as I walk around my city and I talk to people and people come up and talk to me. And I think unless the government actually intervene and do start to implement policies that are going to make a real significant change with things like law and order, with things like immigration, with things like housing.

Unless they start to do that and they start to do it pronto, we are on a track to a very, very dark place. And I don't want to go to a live in America. I don't want to leave this country. I don't. And as in it's somebody who is English and is very, very, very, very grateful to have been brought here, to have lived here, to be born here, because I've seen the alternatives. I don't want this to become Venezuela. I really don't. And I'm seeing it's like an illness. Some of the symptoms I saw in Venezuela, I'm now starting to see here. And that, that's worrying.

Or at least you're going to have nice weather and attractive. Yeah. Well, global warming, mate. Actually, I hate the heat. Global warming is brilliant. I made this point last time. It's not, mate. I'm going to join Extinction Rebellion. I'm going to stick myself to something. All right. On that happy note, thanks for watching. If you want to subscribe, I remember, triggerpot.com. UK, if you want to watch all our interviews, add free with bonus content. We'll see you very soon with another interview.

I'm fine if people are anti-war. I'm not fine if people are anti-fact. Nobody's ever built 300 miles of tunnels underneath their civilians for the sole purpose of using their civilians as a shield and as a sacrifice. Every individual in Gaza could fit in Hamas' tunnels with ease. Why is it that Israel is held to not one double standard, but a whole list of double standards in war that no other nation in history has ever been held to?

What is the goal now by pursuing this conflict in this way alienates a whole generation of future Western decision makers? And that is a reality that Israeli politicians have to reckon with, surely.