TRIGGERnometry - Posie Parker: "Trans Women Aren't Women"

Episode Date: November 17, 2019

Posie Parker is a women's rights campaigner and runs standingforwomen.com Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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If you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects, they know nothing about. At trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts. We ask the experts. Our guest this week is a controversial women's right campaigner. Posi Parker, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you very much. I added the word controversial to your introduction.

I think it's merited. I think that's fair to say. It is controversial to assert what I do, yeah. Yeah, well, for anyone who doesn't know what you do, tell us a little bit about who you are, how are you where you are, particularly this chair right now. What's been your journey through life that's brought you here? Okay, so about 2015, when the Tories were elected,

I was a firm Labor member and had always voted Labor in my adult life. I'm Jewish, by the way. And the Tory's got elected. And I think most people are really shocked after the coalition. I think everybody thought that good old Jeremy was going to get his chance. Thankfully, he didn't. And I joined this massive lefty forum. And it was called Amazing Lefty Women or Awesome Lefty Women.

And I joined when I was about 500 members. up to a 20,000 membership and mainly women very disorganized having no clue just whining about what was going on but then something interesting started happening and that was lots of men who identified as women started joining and I sort of I was a bit skirting around it didn't couldn't really understand what was happening there was lots of sort of she and oh my gosh you were so stunning and brave those sort of lots of fawning and when you say that Lots of men. How many, I were talking about when you say lots. Was it a few people? Well, about 20. And they stuck out a mile. Many of them looked like truckers in a dress.

And this one man came in and he told like a Bernard Manning type joke. And the essence of which, I think the punchline was a feminist tied to my radiator in the basement after a beating or something. Some sort of male violence type thing that generally women don't tell jokes like that. And I sort of, are you sure you identify as a woman? And I could sort of hear this northern sort of 1970s comic voice every time I sort of read something that he said. It was, it was, it's really weird. And he went absolutely nuts at me. But that was bad. But all the women joined in saying that I was hateful, disgusting, transphobic. How could I question this man or woman, they would say?

He knows better than I do, how he identifies. And so then I was switched on to actually, if I'm not allowed to talk about this, and this is obviously very serious and I need to talk about it as much as I possibly can, found like-minded people, had sort of secret things online. And then we just noticed the language just disappearing. And then I was interviewed by the police for making comments about mermaids, saying that I thought transitioning children was abuse. and I talked about Susie Green

taking her son to Thailand and having castrated for a 16th birthday just thought it was an unusual gift I'm sure my mum fantasised the time to bring that out of times and so and I just made these comments and then I got interviewed under caution

by the police and I think I was one of the first women to be interviewed by the police for this What was it specifically that you said? Sorry, sorry. So it's six tweets So there's a couple of really sinister things about this. Number one, it was six tweets.

It was things like transitioning children is abuse. I think I'd, so I'm banned from Twitter forever. My IP address is banned. And I'd said they'd had... I can't get a Russian maid to saw you out within your IP. I can't be bothered. It's such a cesspit. So I'm quite happy not to be on it.

But they'd teamed up with Magnum ice creams. And so I'd sort of said it was a bit like, hey kids, do you want us some sweeties, you know, come. And it was a bit grooming. and I'd made comments about that. And I'd also said that she'd castrated the boy. And the police approached Twitter who released my contact information. And this was at a time where they couldn't get a jihadis address, but they got my details released from Twitter,

which is why I think by the time I was interviewed, it was February and I'd made the comments the September before. So that was quite sinister, I thought. And what was the police process like? Was it just one interview? Was it a series of interviews? It was one interview. It was about an hour and a half.

They text me, right? So they text me and said, oh, we'd like to get in touch with you. And I just ignored it because I had no idea that the police texted people and goes, can we interview you? And so I thought it was like a prank and somebody had managed to get my number.

and they persisted. And so I phoned him back and it was this cheek cheeky chat from Yorkshire who was, well, you know, we've all had conversations about it around the dinner table and he's all lovely and friendly. And then I spoke to my sort of online group and they said, you should get a solicitor. Don't go to that interview without someone. So I got a solicitor who was this six foot four, very posh, older gentleman. the sort of guy that was so posh, he could stop in the middle of a sentence and people would just wait until he continued. You know, that sort of gravitas.

And he came along with me and I wrote a pre-prepared statement and just that was read out. But she had given the police a five-page account of my tweets. And most of that was her life story with her son and why he was. transitioned and that was read out in full in the police interview. And they've sort of said things like, did you know that actually sex reassignment surgery doesn't include castration? Just mind blowing. What did they think that sex reassignment surgery actually was? Did they honestly think that boy came home with his testicles intact? You know, it was just, it was insane. and they called me hateful for calling Janet Mock a man.

And at the end of it, they sort of asked my solicitor what he thought they should do. Because I hadn't spoken. I just sort of had to sit there defiantly and just say no comment. And obviously I've watched a lot of movies. I thought I was quite good at no comment. And they recommended it to the CPS. They pushed it forward to try and get me prosecuted for malicious communications, hate speech, a conspiracy. because other people had said similar things to me.

So it was like there was a conspiracy against Susie Green, not that she's a public figure receiving millions of public money or certainly half a million of lottery funding to go and spread her odious little message to small children. And what was the result of that prosecution? They didn't go forward with it. So the CPS decided there wasn't enough evidence. Surprisingly.

Yeah, that was so shocked. Okay. And you're wearing a T-shirt with the definition. of a woman and that is part of a campaign that you then organized. Yes. So tell us about that. So in about July of there's been a couple of controversies about me by that point by women from my own side, nasty, defamatory, horrible, typical leftist behaviour.

And so I was a little bit controversial at that point within my own movement. And I wanted to do something that sort of what was the essence of this? What was really going on? And what it was is we couldn't talk about being women anymore. So we couldn't use a word. We couldn't use female language and people knew exactly what we meant. Women were beginning to be told that we had to put cis in front of our name or that trans women are women. And so I wanted to get this word back.

And I thought, well, I think if we put something, first I was going to do a Times advert, but I didn't have 40 grand. If we're going to push these people, like what basically we need to do is we need to allow these trans activists to speak. Because when they speak, everybody will hear just how insane their demands are. And we knew that if we put something really neutral up on a billboard that said woman, the definition of women, that they would kick off. And they would have a real big problem with that. And they did. And the way I did it is I raised money through selling t-shirts and stickers. And you say they've got insane demands. What are their demands? Well, they sort of say trans rights. And then you say, well, what are those rights? Because as a man or a woman in this

country, you're allowed to pretty much do the same sort of things. You know, I'm, I have a little bit of right when it comes to maternity because actually growing a baby inside your body is something I think deserves a little bit of room. But generally speaking, I don't know what rights they don't have except to invade women's spaces. That seems to be the beginning and end of the demand is the demand. So transgenderism is to pretend to be the opposite sex or to lie about your sex and transphobia is the refusal to believe that lie. And you say invade women's spaces. So what do you mean by that? Is it changing rooms? Is it toilets? Is it every, it's all of them. It's all of the things that we've carved out of a society that we say that's for one sex or that's

that's for another. So anytime that a woman goes into a toilet, you know, it's a different experience to a man, the majority of the time. For a start, we have more things to remove in order to do it. So we're much more vulnerable because we're in a bigger state of undress most of the time. And we also have other functions in a toilet. So I don't want to share that with a man. And quite frankly, men's toilets and women's toilets are very different spaces. You are a lot more dirty, generally, as a group of people. I'm triggered. It's an undeniable reality. I've gone into both toilets just to make sure. Sorry, Posey. It wasn't the safe space when I was there. And just like you, no charges were brought. Not yet, anyway. But Posey, you use quite a, I would say, a lot of people

would say some of the language that you've just used, and you're perfectly entitled, in my opinion, to use it, but a lot of people would consider it inflammatory. So when you talk about people pretending to be the other sex, about lying about those things. You know, both Francis and I, we work with trans people in comedy. We've had a trans guest on the show. I know personally people who are trans, right? And there is such a thing as gender dysphoria, right? Would you accept that? I think there is a, I think very rare cases that there may be something that people label gender dysphoria, yes. And the theory currently is scientifically that something happens in utero where the fetus is bombarded with certain. Is there that theory?

I believe there is. Peer reviewed, quality. No, there isn't. There isn't. Okay. Well, let's say there is the assertion then. Yes. That is the case.

Okay. So there are people, and I know people who are like this, who say, look, from the age of three, I've known I was the opposite sex. That has never wavered. I've been that way. And the early I transitioned, the better it would have been for me. I'm 50 years old now. I am the opposite sex to the sex with which I was born.

And I could not be happier. And my life is now completely different. I fully transitioned chemically and physically. I've had the surgery. I've been reassigned. Is that someone pretending to be the opposite? I mean, they've gone to quite a lot of trouble, haven't they, to pretend? Well, that would be a different.

It's immaterial whether or not that person is absolutely right in their belief. I don't really know how we could explore that to find out if they are right. But it's immaterial to me and women's spaces whether or not that person really believes it or just gets aroused. You know, it doesn't, it's, that doesn't matter to me. It's still women's spaces and they are not coming in. No, but my point is about the language to start with. We'll get into the second point. point is about the language. Someone who has gone through an extensive, expensive, painful, difficult

process to completely alter their body and mind, as it turns out, which hormones do, right? Are they really pretending to be the other sex? Are they lying about the sex? Well, are they pretending to be the opposite sex? Well, they're not the opposite sex. so they can only be pretending because they're not the thing that they say they are. If you look at somebody like Juno Roche, who's written about his experience transitioning, just the language that they use, that many of those people use, and India Willoughby when he was on Big Brother, he acted absolutely like a man. He shouted in a woman, an 80-year-old woman's face,

I am a real woman and did this and said, you know, let that penetrate, which I thought was a very interesting term for him to use. But he, he absolutely acted like a man. He, he massaged his naked, brand new breasts every night on the television. He has a, he's a father to a child. And a lot of these men that transition late, it's just, it's so absolutely destructive to their families. to their children. I've spoken to children that there's not word for children whose parents transition, but they go through a lot of grief and a lot of gaslighting before their parent transitions. And then women are called trans widows. And with these men, and I don't know enough about India to comment and to group him in this category, but I've read so many accounts of

autagynophiliac men who talk about selfies, who withdraw from their intimate relations. relationships, who, you know, it's too, even if they go through the full surgery, there is too much evidence that I've read to suggest that the majority of them, these days, the ones that are vocal, are just, it's just a fetish. But it's beyond like most people's fetish where you take it off again. It's the, it's embodying a woman's body and falling in love with yourself as a woman. We had India Willoughby on the show And this is another thing You kept calling India he Right India said to us I'm a woman

I'm perfectly happy to call her she As a matter of politeness Whatever I may or may not think about it Right we had her on She talked about her experience She is the example I was talking about earlier Where it's someone I think I remember asking her

If you could have transitioned at 5 Would you? And India said, absolutely, right? And throughout talking to her, I mean, I think it's fair to say for both of us that we were persuaded by her experience that this was a genuine case of someone with gender dysphoria. So why are you so militant about calling India He, about insisting that this is a fetish? when I think if you listen to someone like that and hear their story, I mean, I genuinely can't understand that somebody would go through everything that she's been through just because it's, you know, it's a fetish or a fad or whatever.

I got a genuine sense. This is a person who'd been struggling a lot with their identity and came to a position where they're happy now with who they are. Right. Do you know what I'm saying? I do know what you're saying. So why call her he and insist on that? Why is that so important, Poussey?

Because when you're talking, when you describe men, you have to, you have to be able to use language. It makes sense. It doesn't cloud what's really going on. So if I decide that I'm going to go down the road of using she, then that's a thin end of the wedge. And the end of the wedge is that when we talk about a man who's raped women, we call him she. Or then when there was a, there was someone on a tube. attacked in a tube station. And it was by four women. And it wasn't by four women. I think they were four men. But we then can't talk about male violence because we're talking about

she and a woman. So I just absolutely categorically refuse to do it. For a start, I don't see India remotely as a woman. When I look at India, I see a man. When I engage with India, which I did on this morning, I definitely read him as a man. That's, and so you would, and even if you knew somebody personally, and they said to you, I prefer to be as referred to as she, you would still insist as referring to them as he. Probably wouldn't refer to them as anything. Yeah.

If I like the person, and I do have some friends who are trans. Most of them are very, they see themselves as men now. I think they've come through the other side of it, and some of them question what nurse they've done to themselves. So I probably would avoid pronouns altogether. I'm not going to sort of sit with somebody that I like or respect and try and upset them. When I was on this morning, I think I referred to India as they. But I certainly wouldn't say she.

Well, by the way, I know we're pushing back against some of the things you're saying. It's not because we're entirely in disagreement with everything. But that point particularly strikes me as an area where we sometimes it's tempting to throw the baby out with the body. I think politeness and, you know, a certain amount of consideration for people's experience is also important. I do think we overdue empathy in our society, absolutely, and it's been weaponized as a weapon against people. And there is a lot of evidence now. A lot of people are unhappy to have transitioned. Yeah.

That is absolutely the case. So we're fully on board with that. So explain to me the safe spaces thing, because trans people have always existed, right? Is that fair to say? Yeah. Okay. So where would those people have peed before? Someone who dressed as a woman had a male anatomy.

It hadn't transitioned in any way. But dressed as a woman tried to look as much as they could as a woman. Would they not have been in women's toilets this whole time? Well, they may have been intimidating women in their own spaces all this time. Yeah. Why is it? And this is again, we're two men, so we may not get this. We perfectly accept that, which is why we want to have you on the show.

But why is it necessarily intimidating? if someone who more or less looks female, walks into a female bathroom, uses the bathroom in a way that no other woman can see them using, right, there's no urinals in female toilets, walks out, washes their hands, doesn't say anything to anyone, just like most 99% of people do.

Why is that intimidating women? Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality. The kind where you wake up and feel like a human, being rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers. You're spending a third of your life on the thing and most people

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But it literally is a safe space. It's where we go that we can guarantee that we're away from men. And I don't say that as someone who's like, you know, I've never been a victim of sexual assault. I've got very happy marriage. I've got three sons and a daughter. And when I think about men in women's toilets, I think about my 13-year-old daughter. And I think about my 13-year-old self. And I think about women that have been sexually assaulted.

And I think, who's more important to me? and it's never the man who needs to validate his identity by going in a woman's space. It's always going to be the 13-year-old who would be terribly embarrassed and feel nervous. You know, if you go for a bra fitting in Marks and Spencers and it's your first bra fitting and you don't want to be there anyway because it's highly embarrassing and it's awful and it's, you know, adolescence is our most sensitive time. It's when we feel the most embarrassment. If you're in that women's space and then you hear a male voice, it's not nice.

And it's not because you think they're going to pervert you or they're going to attack you or anything. It just changes the very feel of everything that's happening in that place. That's why, so those men that, and frankly, I don't know any, I don't, I've never seen a trans woman that passes, which could be sort of Schroeder's cat, as in if I haven't seen them, that means they pass. Blair White, for example, would be someone to. No, he didn't used to though, did he, before like hundreds of thousands of dollars of surgery? But now you look at Blair. But he also performs. He performs bobbling womanhood all the time.

I happen to like him. But for me, I've seen him way before he looked like he does right now. But, you know, there's plenty of women that look like Blair. If you go to the same surgeon, you all look the same. I guess what I'm saying is if Blair White walks into a toilet where your 13-year-old daughter is, why is that intimidating? Well, then you talk about passing, which a lot of trans people find really offensive. You're not allowed to talk about that.

It's called trigonometry for reasons. Then you're talking about passing, and then who gets to decide? Like, we have rules in society. They're not so that every second of every day we can make a thousand decisions whether or not to uphold the rule. These are just the rules. These are the socially acceptable rules that actually, if you're a man, and if you're a man, don't come in women's spaces in toilets. And you talk about, you know, the thin end of the wedge. What is your fear if we don't address the trans issue head on?

And if you don't start protecting women's spaces. Where do you think it could end up in a few years? That we don't have any women's spaces at all. And then we don't have any privacy. And it's mass gaslighting to sort of say to women that they're not allowed to feel uncomfortable. They have to go override those feelings already happening in schools and places with girls where, so during adolescence, you have the embarrassment bit, but you also have the peer bit. So you want, and I think it's an evolutionary process of like pushing away from your parents towards peers,

so you don't procreate with your parents. That's my very unscientific idea. But so these girls have this thing going on with them where they have to fit in with their friends. They can't be transphobic and unaccepting. But at the same time, they're having to overcome the. their feelings of absolute embarrassment, which is a kind of a global developmental phenomenon. It happens in all cultures, so it's not just over here. So that's one thing that we don't have spaces.

But the real harm is that children are having their bodies mutilated and altered in irreversible ways. And that's happening more and more and more. And it's becoming almost like people have forgotten their brains that people think it's a great idea. that parents get complimented when their kids go on puity blockers because they're so super brave. Well, I mean, let's explore this a lot. So I'm a former teacher and it wasn't really a thing when I was teaching. I only left the profession last year. Right. So tell us a little bit about that. What is actually happening in schools now and particularly any examples you can give? Well, there's a whole bunch of weird stuff happening with sex and schools and what we think

it's right for adults to talk about with children in a school setting. For example, my 11-year-old daughter had a slide-up when they talked about hygiene. And one of the slides is you should wash after sex to a group of 11-year-olds. And when I took that into school with the teacher, police and values teacher. Do you have to do that? I would have thought it was before. I wish my sex life would be a lot better now. Well, you are married, right?

But also there's the transphobic thing. So transphobic language. They also teach trans ideology as if that is something that we all know. When you say trans ideology, what is it that they're teaching kids? Well, that some people are trans and that it's possible to change sex. So they might sort of talk to kids. Mermaids do this wonderful. This is going to sound like I'm making it out, but it's not.

It's true. It goes into schools. And it's this long line of jellybaby people. and you've got like a sticksing Barbie pink at one end, and the other end you've got Brian G.I. Joe and then the spectrum of colors, kids have to pick where they are. So if you're a boy and you kind of feel like you're over here, then maybe really you're a girl and you're in the wrong body.

Or maybe if you like Barbies and trucks, you might be non-binary. And kids have to think about that. Now, as far as I'm concerned, kids should have to think about what they're going to do at playtime, what they're going to learn, what they're going to eat for lunch, and what time school finishes so they can go home and watch TV. You know, that's the beginning and end of what I think children should be concerned with at school. We have absolutely terrible rates of maths and English sort of skill level.

And so I don't know if we've got time in the curriculum to pump their primary school heads full of this absolute shit. Is it not a really sexist way of looking at a general? or sex in this case, because you're basically saying that being a man is about playing with trucks when a lot of men don't necessarily like playing with trucks. I love trucks on the other hand. Exactly. And equally, there are women who don't like playing with dolls and who have a, you know,

there are many women who dress and behave in ways that are very masculine without ceasing to be women. So is one of the reasons that feminists oppose this idea that it essentially reinforces gender stereotypes about men and women. Absolutely. Well, it's all about the way that you behave becomes more important than the body you're born in. I mean, I sit here is clearly very feminine. Maybe not in my mannerisms or in my opinions. We don't see gender. It's true. Just gender blind. You're just like an orb to us. But of course it's regressive that we think that

if somebody puts enough makeup on and a good enough wig, or often very bad, and clothes and fake breasts that suddenly they're more likely to cry at Bambi. You know, and they're female. It's ridiculous. And you're talking about non-binary. I'm going to admit this. What is non-binary? I don't know what non-binary is. It's ever so special.

It's basically everybody. because none of us fit into very male, very female, do we? I mean, my husband's... I definitely do. I'm Russian, so. We have only one gender in Russia. But it's absolutely nonsensical. And if you ask a nom...

I think Douglas Murray talked about this. If you ask Sam Smith what non-binary is, he's like, I don't know, I'm just finding out. Well, yeah, mate, it doesn't really exist. Because it's just a made-up thing. You know, I thought when I was a little girl growing up, I was really good at maths. My favourite toy was a garage. it, my dad built us because we were so very poor. And I, like, all my friends were boys because I really like playing Star Wars and picking up

crane flies and throwing them at people. You know, that's how I spent my childhood. So was I non-binary? I mean, I had corduroy dungarees. Was I just tasteless? You know, it's quite insane. You know this thing about children? I think that is the crux of the issue, because open-minded.

liberal people, look, if you want to be called she, I'm not that bothered. Honestly, maybe there's things I don't understand enough about it, but if someone wants to be called she, I'm perfectly happy to do it. Maybe if I was someone with a beard in a dress, I'd struggle to do that, and I might avoid it. But generally speaking, most people, I think, in the country, broadly speaking, are going to be like, yeah, whatever, just, you know, don't go to extremes. But when you get to the kids thing, that I think is where you start to lose people.

I can give you an example from my own family. I have three younger sisters, the middle one of which told me last year that for a year, my mom reminded me of this. For a year, she thought she was a boy when she was eight years old.

And she is now the most feminine, long-haired, pretty, loves pink, glitter, like in the traditional stereotypical way, the most feminine woman you could meet. Now, if you said to my mom, when my sister was eight,

you need to take her, give her hormones, give her gender. I think my mom would have more than words for you. And I think that is where a lot of this issue really comes into a lot of conflict, where you start to talk about encouraging the transitioning of children. Well, in America, you can have your breast sliced off at the age of 12. And you can do it at 15 without your parents' consent in Oregon. Right.

So, and in one hospital in Marin, Kang, of which of course there are thousands of hospitals across America but in one hospital alone they do double mastectomies on young teens four to six a day and by young teens what a particular age are we looking at sort of 14 around that age but isn't it also quite homophobic as well because a lot of people are questioning their gender

isn't it a lot of the times that they're finding out their sexuality and realizing they're attracted to the same sex well it's gay conversion therapy isn't it? You get your gender non-conforming lesbian and you transition her into a straight man. But there's a big take-up now of just girls opting out of womanhood. Not all of them are lesbian.

And they're just opting out of womanhood because I wouldn't want to be a teenage girl now in a porn sort of adult society in which we live where you've got trafficked 15-year-olds being found on porn hub. you know, who incidentally, porn hub are the Mind Geek, who they, Mind Geek, own porn hub, and they were going to be in charge of protecting children from accessing porn. It's very strange that they haven't managed to do it. Who knew?

But certainly with the feminine boys, I think that is the main impetus for people. You know, you can erase away the gay with a bit of transition and saying he was a girl all along. And transition rates have started to rocket and also do rates of children seeing themselves as being a different gender? Well, I mean, you can feed a society as well, I'm sure you both know. You can feed a society anything if you have the right tools and the narrative. So we've got CBBC covered, I Am Leo, which is a girl transitioning. She got a new passport at 16 with the male sex on it. You know, and just think, where's, where's is that going to go if loads of girls do it and then say they travel to China or Russia or anywhere and they say, we want to search you, we think you've got something on you.

And then they get this, this 16 year old girl goes in a room with a load of men because she's male on her passport. It's absolutely bonkers. And once you socially transition these children, then they almost have no choice into the puberty blockers. because if you're getting this high praise as a parent and a child of, oh, you're so great, oh, you're so brave. Oh, you must love your son, so daughter, son, so much in order to do this. And the child's getting loads of praise and all this focus and attention and you're going to counselling. And you're tiptoeing around and the child's managed to make mummy and daddy call them by a different name and use a different pronoun and the school has to do it and you become this king in your own life. why are you going to give that up?

And when are you going to give it up? When are you going to have the consciousness to be able to say, actually, this isn't right. I really don't feel like a girl anymore. I think I'm a boy. By that point, have you taken puberty blockers? Have you totally disrupted your body? You know, it's insane. And doctors won't talk about it.

Like every place you go to where you think, well, stop there. They're not going to go along with that. That's insane. The doctors are going to. along with it. The GPs are too frightened to speak up. Psychologists, the Tavistock and Portman, which is the sort of gender identity specialists. And everywhere you go, the BBC, feed it to kids. There's a story on CBBs of this definite autogynophile man who transitioned. I can't remember what his name was Charlotte or something. It was like, my dad Charlotte. It was a stunning and

brave family. And the dad, who must have been about five, ten, runs in the room like giggling and his kids and his wife are sitting on the sofa. And he jumps on them like that because obviously that's all how all women behave in their lives. And then we had another one at a local school. And he was the only person that walked his daughter to school. She must have been 13 or 14, holding hands. And I felt that was very much part of his whole need to be seen as a mother. So he'd missed out on those years when he held his daughter's hand going to school. So he made a do it and he'd pick her up at lunchtime.

I can't imagine how distressing that was for her. But the children thing, I have no idea how anyone with good conscience goes to work and contributes to this idiocy and wholesale abuse of children. Let me try again from maybe, well, it's going to be the same angle pretty much. But there are people in, this is my opinion, and you tell me where you're at on it, right? I suspect that there are people who do have gender dysphoria. Right. And they may be a percentage of the total number of people who say that they're trans, right?

And for those people, they, again, my opinion, reassignment is helpful. to them as an individual. So isn't it really much more about, kind of there's a group of people who need that and then there's a lot of people who may be kind of being encouraged into that by society that's now obsessed with this stuff? So isn't the challenge here

is kind of differentiation between the two rather than taking what I would say is a more extreme position, which is these are all people pretending to be the other sex? Look, we have all types of dysphoria. We have people that don't feel they should have two legs. We have people that think they should be blind. We have people that

think that they're fat when they're sort of five and a half stone. We don't go along with those things and say that it would be good for you to starve to death or it would be good for you to become a medical patient or be blind. And I would say with gender dysphoria, it's kind of, that's totally separate to whether or not you should be in women's spaces. But children A, don't have capacity to understand the ramifications of what their choices are. So I think, and I think our brain develops to adulthood until we're sort of in our mid-20s. So I think you should, and then it's up to you. Do you know what? If a man wants to have fake breasts and invert his penis and cut his testicles off and call himself Sheila, it's not really any of my concern as long

as he doesn't infringe upon my rights and my spaces. And my rights would be to go into a female only space and there to only be women in it. So it's not really a. really any of my business. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't particularly offend me. As long as they know, as long as I'm not forced to go along with that belief, it doesn't really matter. So, and the pretending, how are you ever going to know whether somebody who was well versed or somebody has a fetish or somebody is generally fighting every day to get through it? I don't know if you'd genuinely know the difference between those two people or even if it matters. It just, it can't be right that at 18, a girl in this country can go to a private surgeon, three months later have a

breast chopped off and become a medical patient for the rest of her life and take testosterone, which then causes vaginal atrophy, which is like the menopause, and then they often have to have hysterectomies in their early 20s, which result in higher risk of Alzheimer's, higher risk of cancer, higher risk of osteoporosis. You know, proper serious, we haven't even seen what the the outcome of this will be for loads of these people. But there are some people, Posey, that I know personally, right, whose lives are horrible. They don't, you wouldn't wish their lives on anyone. No.

Being born in this way and feeling like you're in the wrong body. And, you know, we know that the suicide rate is crazy for people who are, who've got this. And, you know, they're all, a lot of them are depressed. It's a very difficult thing to be dealing with. surely for some of them who have a genuine case of gender dysphoria, they need all the help they can get, surely? They do and suicide rates don't change after transition. Yeah.

So that would suggest that these surgeries don't help. Long-term therapy would help, really getting to the root of what is it about your body that, you know, being born in the wrong body is such a ridiculous concept because your body is the thing that you're born in. You know, that is what makes you, that is you, your body. It can't be separated. Well, unless their argument is that you have a male,

there is a male brain and a female brain. And, you know, from scientists that we've spoken to, you know, if you look at someone's brain, you can predict with about 80% accuracy what sex they are just by looking at their brain, right? Yeah, but that would be on size and women have a slightly more grey matter. That's what Pinker would argue.

Sure. So, so, but my point is there is such a thing as the male brain, broadly speaking. You're looking at me like you don't agree, but let me let this out and then you tell me what you think. There's such a thing as the male brain, such a thing as a female brain. Therefore, theoretically, based on that, it's possible for someone to be born in a female body with a male brain, which tells them that their body should be male, right? No, I think that's a crazy idea. Why? Where's the bit that's female?

How does that work? The brain is in the wrong, like what are you talking physically? There's a physical aspect of a brain that makes it female? Well, it's a brain that tells that person that they are male and they happen to have a female body. But there'll be a brain that tells people all sorts of things that aren't true. It doesn't mean that you would go along with it. And can someone really articulate that they are definitely female if they don't have a female body? Like, how would they know? How would they know what it feels like to be a female if they're not one?

I suppose what they would say is that it's just a feeling that they've had and that they have always had. And this sense of discomfort of wearing, being, of identifying as a man. But then what is that? Like, identifying as all these terms, they're great, but they don't mean anything. What does identifying as a man mean? Does that mean that they look at their penis and they think that's definitely not mine? Yes. So that would be a body dysphoria. That would be an appendage dysphoria. That would be a penis dysphoria. That wouldn't necessarily, just because you reject a penis or think that you should have a different body, it doesn't mean that your brain is right or that there aren't other psychological, behavioral reasons as to why that happens. Like autokinophilia can happen,

or any fetish rather, can happen with experiences in very small children. They sort of set it. I think Grace and Perry talks about it and he reckons that this generation of children are going to have fetishes about phones because that's all their mothers do is just look at mobile phones. So those things can embed in a person more often with men. And the whole dysphoria thing is a misnomer anyway because where are the heterosexual women coming out as men in their 40s, the mothers who are coming out as men? Because there's plenty of men that are coming out apparently as women that have known all their lives. and suddenly revise their entire lives to support that narrative.

But there are no women doing it. And that's an interesting point, yeah. That I've not heard before. Yeah, no, absolutely. And because we don't, we talk a lot about male to female transitions, but never so much, the debate is never as contentious on the other side. Why is that? Is it mainly to do with save spaces?

Is it also to do with the sport element as well, where a lot of female athletes, in particular Sharon Davis, are getting incredibly angry. I can't blame them, can you? There's trans men, so women that call themselves men, they are not going to threaten a man in a boxing ring, are they? They're not going to cause, there's a mixed martial arts fighter in America.

Alan Fox. Yeah. I mean, that's just, it's insane. We're totally with you on that one. I mean, people should trans, women should not be competing in female sports. I mean, if you don't think that you're a fucking idiot, no offense to it, fucking idiots,

that is a crazy idea. The idea that people should be physically in combat or even competing with natural born women, it's insane. Would you explain why it's insane? Because, I mean, there are people out there. It's not fucking hard, mate. Men and women are different.

Men are bigger, stronger, faster. They've got bigger hearts, bigger. they're less likely to be injured. I mean, these are basic biological facts, are they not? Well, yeah, this is where the pronoun thin end of the wedge thing comes in. Okay. So if we don't use female language for men, if we call trans women men and we said, that man is going to win the cycling race, the women's cycling race, everyone would go, no.

But because that man is referred to as a trans woman and then now a woman in the press, then people have to have these conversations which are ludicrous because if we just said men and women, he and she, there's none of this confusion. We're all very clear about what we're talking about. Rachel Reese McKinnon, calls himself Rachel McKinnon. He's a man, full stop. You know, when people go, why, well, the lungs, the muscle fibres, the...

No, because he's a man. We sort of get into these cold attacks of, like, You've used the instance, and I think India is the one that introduced you to the idea that happens in utro, this sort of mix-up of whatever it is, hormones or hormone washes, I think he said it was. Absolute nonsense. But that's because we are trying to explain things that are so nonsensical. And then we're trying to put sort of intelligent hats on and explain why it's true, why it's not true. They're just men. That's it.

Is there no compromise pose? Is there no middle ground where we can say, okay, fine. They're not women, let's say. What they are is trans women. And we create a separate category so that those people can get the comfort that they need. They can have their own pronouns used. But for the purposes of, let's say, sport and other fields, they're not treated exactly as women in that sense. But broadly speaking, we give them the comfort that they need.

to feel good about themselves. So in order to compromise, I will have to change my language to something that I know isn't true. But no, I'm not saying you have to say they're a woman. I'm saying you have to say they're trans woman. For example, it's a new category, let's say. No.

Why? I just don't, I think it's really bloody offensive to think that you can just stick on some clothes and demand that I change the way I think. because I don't think they're trans women is a nonsense term woman doesn't apply to those but you don't think there's a difference between me

and me having cut off my penis and replaced her with an artificial vagina and artificial breasts is that not a different person and a different type of person I think you're probably a troubled human if you do that but I don't think that makes you a different category of human no and what a lot of women in particular

women that I know who are very close to me get incensed and enraged by the term cis, cis woman. Why is that so contentious amongst women? Because it's women that have to change all our bloody language. Where uterus have us, I think in Ireland now, you're pregnant people.

I mean, Jesus Christ, it's, I'm a woman. That should be enough, right? But it's not enough anymore because we have trans women. And so now apparently we have to have a prefix. This is why all the little tiny kind of placating language, right?

That all the things that are supposed to be nice and polite and kind, why they're so fucking dangerous because it means trans women. And I think the Green Party called us non-trans women like me, non-trans women. I mean, fuck off.

It's, no. And I think what I hear a lot is something Francis and I have talked about and he just brought it up, which is women are angry about the shit. Yeah, we are. Yeah, I wouldn't use the word Andrew. I use vitriolic.

When sometimes, you know, you're having, you know, the discussion over dinner and you, you know, so the trans issue is raised. And as a man, you sort of blindly stumble obliviously into this minefield. And then you see women who, from every political viewpoint, come out. And when they feel it's safe, they're not happy. No, well, it's a proper, I used to read the bunty as a little girl, a little comic. And it was called, if you can't beat them, join them.

and I really do feel that's what this whole trans stuff is. They've sort of, it's, they've come into the women's movements, and it's very interesting because a lot of these men, so when the women's equality party started, like that, there were trans women in it, right? And then they can't have a position that tries to protect women's spaces because there's already someone there with a bleeding heart, telling them how hard it is for them to pretend to be a woman all day long.

Now, it's, I don't think men really get, and I can't blame you because you have another experience, and I don't know what it's really like to be a man. It's brilliant. It's fucking great. Sorry. As a great comedian friend of us, as a joke says, better pay fewer feelings. That's true. But as soon as you hit puberty as a girl, and, you know, this is global, you become kind of public.

property and I've been gulped at probably not so much these days but I've um you know 40 does that to me I'd gop at you any day but thanks as soon as soon as you sort of hit a particular age you get male attention and I think that's why that's an interesting thing when men start dressing as women and they get comments that they get so hurt and injured and you know rather a gaspile but We've had training in this as women. From the very moment that we have breasts, basically. That's what it comes down. You know, that's how much of a...

That's how, I think many... That's why men are more fooled by men that dress as women. Because men just see makeup, hair, tits. And that's a woman. Whereas women... She's talking about us, maybe. Whereas I think most men can't spot a man dress as a woman as much as a woman. Let me ask you this, because...

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, not with everything, but with a lot of what you're saying. And whenever I have this conversation with people, I always have this thought in the back of my mind, which is, would we not have been having the same conversation about gay people 30 years ago? It's just in their head. What they really need is therapy. They're just thinking it. It's a mental disorder, whatever. You didn't use those words.

No. You didn't. And I'm not putting that in your mouth. But it's some kind of thing in their head. And what we need to do is help them to. to be normal. It's a good argument. Thank you.

It's one that the trans activists use a lot. And I think that the way we've dealt with trans activism and transgenderism generally is a backlash to how terribly badly we dealt with homophobia and homosexuality. But we didn't talk to children about being gay before they kind of their sexuality. And we didn't, gay men never stood in a room and said, you must call me straight. And that's the difference. The whole trans thing is demanding something of other people that isn't just accept me. It's making demands that goes beyond accept me.

It's I demand that you see me the way I see myself. And gay rights never did that. Gay rights was about I want to live my life and I want to operate fully in. society without getting the shit kicked out of me when I walked down the road and loads of abuse. And I think if trans activism had done that and said, look, you know, it's we get attacked. We want the same rights as everybody else, which they already have, then I don't think we'd have this, the wall.

And the interesting thing is, it's a lot of lesbians that are speaking up against transgenderism because they have absolutely, their community has been annihilated. Not only are their very young lesbians being transitioned, but also all lesbian spaces are occupied by men, and so they don't really exist. And it's a lot of liberal, left-leaning liberal women that are going, no, we're not going to have this. You're not going to do this.

You're not going to make women move over for men in our own space. And, you know, I think there's a chap on Twitter that basically said, Did people honestly think that all these liberal, live and let live people, just suddenly got up one day and was like, actually, I'm going to be a raging bigot. I'm just going to pick one issue, and I'm just going to be an absolute asshole about it. And I've totally switched, and now I'm a Nazi.

No. And you talk about the thinner of the wedge. I mean, a good example of what you're talking about with the thick end of the wedge is a case of Karen White in prison, which is just an awful case, and just shows how in many ways we've lost our mind. Well, I think Jeremy Vine was on the radio and he said something like

Karen White raped someone with her penis You know, and that goes, again, it's this pronoun thing And why doesn't, if Karen White... Sorry to interrupt, if you could just explain the case of Karen White to people who might not be able to say Because we get a lot of America's views and all around the world. So Karen White was a convicted rapist that then got put in a women's prison

and then surprisingly, it still had a penis, and surprisingly then went on to sexually assault women. And he's not the only one. And they're overrepresented in sexual offenders trans. So for a percentage of the population, say it's like 0.1% in prison, they are overrepresented. I think about 40% of prisoners who identifies trans are sexual offenders. So that's when, and you know, there could be twofold. It could be one that it's a parapheria, which often you have more than one. So if you've got a fetish about dressing as a woman, you've also got a fetish maybe pedophilia or other sorts of sexual fetishes.

That's well documented by Sheila Jeffries, who's a radical feminist, brilliant writer. I haven't read enough. and then you also have the case of why wouldn't you say that you're a woman? If you're a sexual predator and you go to prison, why wouldn't you say you're a woman? And the police in this country, if you rape someone and you get arrested and you tell them you're a woman, that gets recorded as a crime committed by a woman. I read it in the paper about that today. There was a case going on right now.

By the time this interview goes out, it will be a few weeks in the past. You mentioned we've got very little time, so I'm going to ask you one question and we'll do the last. last question. You mentioned radical feminism. And this is, I feel like I've played the bad cop throughout this interview and this is another question. That was very easily to him. I quite enjoy it, actually. But you've been great sport at dealing with it. Is there, I mean, I have to say as a man who has been repeatedly told that as a man, I'm not allowed to have certain opinions, that I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I have a penis. I have a little bit of Shadenfreude about this. I really do.

Because I look at feminists being told to shut up because they don't know what they're talking about because they haven't had a certain lived experience. And I go, you guys fucking created this. And now it's being used against you. Enjoy. Am I right about that? Am I wrong about that? Well, there's loads of MRAs that think the same as you.

Oh, I'm not saying you're one. But there are. There are. The biggest sort of ha ha ha ha ha. This is what you deserve. You brought it on yourselves. I don't mean it like that. No, I know you don't. He's on an all carnivore diet. Oh, Jordan.

No, no, no, no, no. I eat greens as well, then. I love greens. I totally have sympathy with that. I absolutely do. And sometimes I listen. I'm not a feminist anymore. Because, well, I don't.

Why don't you believe in women's equality, posy? I've got far too many fucking women. That's why. In this movement, it's awful. It's properly awful. The way women behave. in their own movement is shocking. I don't think men do it.

I don't know what it is. I've thought about it often. But in my life, the people that have been the most awful to me are women. And also I just sometimes hear identity politics. Like lurking at the back of my head when I read some of the stuff when people go, as a woman, as a feminist, as a mother,

as a, and I'm thinking, well, that's all the stuff we're fighting against. So for me, when I discovered that I was on the wrong side of the left when it came to this, I had like an awakening. And some people make all that a certain sort of pill. I'm not going to go along with that. But I had a bit of an awakening where you suddenly thought, oh, okay. So I've always thought that. Why do I think that?

Let me explore why I think that? Why do I have that point of view? Is there any truth to it? Have I really thought about this or is it something I'm supposed to believe? And the whole feminist thing, you know, all men are potential rapists. And you're like, and it's sort of said to someone and they say, what, what? Or 90% of women have been a victim of sexual assault or all these ridiculous sort of things. And there's a little bit of me sometimes that thinks, well, we have invited it.

We have sort of, you know, we've, we've had this role of, oh, we're so terribly oppressed and victim and victim and victim and then these men want a piece of it. And that would all be true if it weren't for the fact that it's men doing it. So the invasion of women's spaces, whilst we may have given language, perhaps, it's men that are doing it. So is it a woman's fault if a man then tries to invade a woman's space? No, it's not. Even if we provided the language and open the door, it's still not our fault if he chooses to walk in. Well, if you've learned anything from this episode, it's that I'm a men's rights activist.

Yes, you aren't. Or is it otherwise known Russian? We've run out of time, so we've got one more question for your question. And the last question is always the same. For all our guests, which is what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really should be talking about? It's a big one. It's paedophilia and the erosion of safeguarding towards children.

Glad to end on a soft note. We're not fucking leaving it there. Tell us a little bit of what you actually mean by that. I think there is, I think there is a, along with this trans wave, and I'm not going to conflate the two, because that's not remotely what I'm saying. However, if I was a paedophile and I was watching with glee at the severance of family control and autonomy, like in the schools in Birmingham, and what our children, primary school age children are being taught, the fact that if you're a man, you can

go away with the girl guides now and they don't have to tell your parents, the parents of the children. And the sex, sort of the way that we talk about sex in schools and then pornography and the way that that's easily accessible for children. And it all just, it's really uncomfortable. I feel like I'm wearing some sort of foil hat and should be on the David Ike show instead of this very sensible and reasonable show. But it does feel that there's some really uncomfortable things happening with the erosion of boundaries. Well, there you go. Ending on a happy note, as we usually do. No, no, no, it's great. But this is why we give our guests that opportunity to say whatever it is that they think.

If people want to follow you and what you do, do they go to the Mumsnet Feminist Forum? No, I'm banned from Monset. Are you? Yeah, because I said that I wouldn't use the pronoun they. Right. So I'm banned forever from that. You can't find me on Twitter because I'm banned from Twitter. So I'm Posey Parker on Facebook, and I run a website called Standing Forward.

women.com where you can buy t-shirts and the like. Fantastic. Do that. And as always, follow us at TriggerPod. We will see you again in the week's time with another great episode. Take care. See you next week, guys.

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