TRIGGERnometry - Posie Parker: Trans Women Aren't Women - Part 2

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Kellie-Jay Keen aka Posie Parker joins us in the studio. Get TICKETS to TRIGGERnometry Live with Peter Hitchens here: https://leicestersquaretheatre.ticketsolve.com/shows/873620658 Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kitten. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. I think it might be pretty fascinating and honest today because we have a returning guest. It's Kelly J Keene, formerly known as Posey Parker, who holds the record for the most number of views of any of our previous interview. She's very happy about it.

Kelly, welcome back. Thanks very much. Well, I mentioned our previous interview. You're obviously a women's rights campaigner, and the first time we had you on, we were talking about the trans issue. This would have been at least two years ago. And just to set the context of everybody,

and you won't know this, but I do remember when you walked out, the interview is titled trans women on women. When you walked out, Francis and I looked at each other and went, okay. And then we sort of, we had to put our testicles back on. to actually put the interview out. Because at the time, for two comedians

who were still operating in the comedy industry, very progressive, we were recording it above a comedy club where we were sort of operating on the goodwill of the people there, that was terrifying. It was borderline suicidal. Yeah, that conversation was absolutely terrifying.

And I think, I want to get your take on it, but I think that one of the reasons it has done as well as it has is it's two people who are genuinely trying to investigate the issue. that possibly putting forward arguments, some of which are well thought out and some less so perhaps,

just pure ignorance. And someone is pushing back with facts, with arguments, with logic, without being upset, without getting angry, there's a bit of humor involved, everybody has a good time. That sort of was the vibe of it. What was, first of all,

your feeling when you walked out of that conversation? I thought it was good. I quite like the opportunity to answer an argument and have a debate, it's quite, it's not as productive for anybody, I don't think. If everyone goes, oh, yeah, I agree, yeah, I agree. Oh, we all agree. Isn't that great? And it's much more entertaining for everybody else, isn't it?

But I think in order to really present a good argument, you need somebody that doesn't necessarily agree with you. And so I absolutely loved it. Yeah, it was great, wasn't it? And, you know, one of the reasons that we wanted to get you back now because we've covered the trans issue we feel like to death. And I think most of our audience and us included now kind of know where we stand on it. And that's partly, let's be honest, thanks to you, because you did open our eyes to a lot of stuff.

And one of the things that you were saying at the time, I'm not sure how persuaded we were by it at that time, was the slippery slope fallacy isn't always a fallacy. And if you allow certain things to happen, well, guess what two years later, you might have a party conference of a major political party in this country. where, you know, Ed Davy, the leader of the Lib Dems, Keir Stam, the leader of the Labour Party, now essentially, they don't, today, Keir Stam is saying, we need a James Bond to be a woman,

but two days earlier, he couldn't even define what a woman was. That's where we are. So, do you feel vindicated? I feel like a prophet. Yeah, I do. I did know that if you can't name what a woman is, you can't really say anything about us, you can't defend our rights, you can't defend our spaces, a female space is no longer a female space,

if there's a man in it. So I knew this was coming. I kind of hoped it wasn't, but I think the writings on the wall from everybody I know who's got anything to do with the Labour Party, and let's not forget that the Tories are in charge and they're not doing very great things either, and the Liberal Democrats are, I mean, if it wasn't such a serious issue, it's hilarious.

I mean, they're just proper way out there, way out there. And how have we come to this point? How have we come to the point where on a major political show, Kirstarmer, when asked what a woman is, do women have cervix, essentially failed a year five biology question? I don't know. there must be such a powerful minority in the Labour Party that he just can't speak. Because it's too ridiculous to think that there's any rational kind of lead up to that.

Emily Thornberry, she was asked the same question and she said that her nephew is trans and he has a cervix. Now, I don't agree with her at all. I think that's a ridiculous thing to say. But at least there is, you can understand if you're, if you've got a knee, I would say, niece who identifies as trans, and you might not want to really offend her. So that's a little bit more understandable. But David Lammy thinks that trans women, men, have also have a cervix, that when you have SRS, you end up with a cervix. I mean, it's like all I can think when I see David Lammy is him saying there are no police

here with a police officer behind him. It feels like neighbourhood policing has vanished. It's not around you. We haven't seen a police while I've been here and I've been here for a little while now. That's just barmy. And it must be these very, very powerful activists. But surely they can't have that power

or do you think they're just worried about being cancelled, smeared, etc, etc? Well, I think they must have power. I think power is the only thing that could persuade, normal, rational humans to say such ridiculous things. It can only be power to force people to inter-newspeak. I don't, it's not rational, is it? There's no truth. It's not factual. So it can only be sort of levers of power. Well, it's become a bit of a purity test. And the first time we were having that conversation, I think the sort of tension that was in the air,

was because we are two people who are genuinely intellectually curious and try to be honest, but also that pressure from the industry we were operating within at that point of time was coming into conflict. And I think a lot of people find themselves in that position, including in the Labour Party, where on the one hand, you do want to be honest and also you want to be compassionate. That was the other thing that was certainly motivating me, and it motivates me to this day. I don't want to upset people who do not have an easy life. They don't, right?

for the sake of some kind of argument. But at the same time, I think we're seeing now that when people pretend to not know the things that they know, it has consequences in every area, whether that's, you know, there's a new transgender fighter in MMA who's choking people out, whether that's Laurel Hubbard competing and taking the places of women,

or whether that's detransitioners now coming through. You're seeing lots of young people who are saying, I was basically let down the garden path, and now I've chopped bits of my body off, without necessarily being fully present to what I was doing. There's consequences to this. There are massive consequences. I sat in the second day of the Kira Bell appeal

when the Tavistock said, no, but we do want to give kids puberty blockers, which was a peculiar thing to sit there thinking, me, the taxpayer, funding the Tavistock, to insist upon actually giving kids puberty blockers. And one of their barristers was talking about the autonomy of 10-year-olds and the agency of a 10-year-old to make that decision. Sitting there and Kira Bell is in front and she's brought this whole case and even though she did lose that particular bit of the whole ordeal for her,

she's open conversations globally. So whatever happened in that courtroom, she totally won and it was incredible. But to listen to, and I've watched the three judges and we've watched the three judges. One of them was like the chief justice. There was another Master of the Robs, and there was another one, the female who I can't remember what her role was. She was jolly good. She looked good and she said, don't.

Yeah, she looked great. And so the three of them, and at no point, I was expecting at least a flicker of something and an inquiry into really these are children, How far is this going to go? And nobody was asking those questions. It was insane. So in answer to your question, I can't remember what the question was.

Well, I think it was less of a question. I actually do want to ask you this, because we talk about the slippery slope, not necessarily being a fallacy. We've seen that with the trans issue. We've seen that with COVID restrictions. You know, people who were saying things a year ago were called conspiracy theorists,

now those very things are happening. What do you think is coming, given what you're seeing? Because you mentioned Labour Party, Lib Dems, but also the Tory's not really doing very much on this issue. Where is this going? Well, the Tories have got a few people, I think, who could really turn the tide. It just depends how much of a grip Carrie Simmons has on Boris's career.

It's not a euphemism. So it just depends how much of a grip the woke have got on the conservatives. But where is it going? Well, they've just mandated this sort of consent for 12-year-olds with vaccines. So I think it could go to some really, really dark places. I think there's so many little things that have happened, right, to do with parents and children. and I'm a mother of four. And the little things like we're not allowed to know what they're doing in sex ed,

or you're not allowed to take them out of the bullying lessons, which often include things that I don't necessarily, you know, I wouldn't have wanted my seven-year-old to be talking about. So there's severance there. There's severance in the relationship between parents and children when it comes to consent for vaccines. In Scotland, the NHS. has sent 51 girls, I think, to,

they called it something euphemistic, but basically having their breasts removed under 18, 51 girls. So I don't know. Is it an attack on reality? Is it a severance of family? Are all the people who've been saying that there's some sort of crazy Marxist takeover happening? Are they a little bit right?

Yes? The thing, there's several things about this issue that I find disturbing, particularly the use of language. Someone very, very close to me is looking at, for medical reasons, having to go through a double mastectomy. And reading up about it and we've sat down together and you're looking at the medical literature. This is a very, very problematic, invasive procedure. And then when you hear other people talk about it, these activists, they got always, just top surgery and you think no it's not top surgery this is a major medical procedure why are we using these frivolous terms well there's loads of frivolous terms aren't there's sex worker for

prostitution we get away from the harrowing ordeal of being like a street prostitute if we call them sex workers and i think it's the same with top surgery the other things called bottom surgery then there's I don't really know what there's getting breasts but yeah this this need to disguise what's going on like there's non-binary surgeries now

so a non-binary surgery might mean that you have your testicles inverted to create a cavity but you would keep your penis girls who call themselves non-binary because there is just an insane war on breasts and I don't really know what this is about. But you'll have a scar from there to there and you have your nipples removed and you just, and there's also, I think somebody called it

mermaid surgery where you have quite a lot of things smoothed out, like your genitals smoothed out and you just end up with a urethra. So there's, it's so gross that if you talk to somebody who knows nothing about it, they will not believe a word you say. because it's so insane. And it's insane, and we seem to be sacrificing our children. That's the thing that really blows my mind, because surely, isn't it every parent's instinct to protect their child? Well, you would think so, right?

Like, if my child had said to me when he was four, I'm a girl, the starting end of that conversation would be, are you? That would be it. No drama, no nothing. That would just, he'd forget about it, I'd forget about it. I read a woman whose child wanted to wear.

So basically he wanted a towel around his hair after a shower like she did. And she said, you can't have one. And he said, I'm a girl. And so what she did with that, she thought about that all night long. And then within six months, that kid was transitioning. And it's women. It's people with vaginas. Bodies, bodies.

Let's use the correct medical language from the Lancet. There's bodies with vaginas. Bodies with vaginas. That are more likely to do that to their kids. Now, I've thought about this long and hard. I don't really know what that is about because I find it that would go against every instinctive fibre in my body to allow something like that to happen to one of my children.

But it is women that are more likely to do it to their kids. Men are more likely to just bring their autochidophilia into their family. which is the fetish of wanting to be a woman. But no, these women, it's women doing it to their kids. I've been saying it for years. No, but I do want to address the other side of this conversation, as we did last time, which is none of us here are people who want anyone to be suffering or anyone to be discriminated against and treated badly.

And this is an area where the rights of different people, groups come into conflict, right? That's why we're having this conversation, right? So, and I appreciate that you're very strongly on one side of that discussion. But how do we not lose our humanity in the process of this and not dehumanize other people when we're talking about it? Well. Because that is important. Would you agree?

Totally. If somebody doesn't bring their identity or whatever into my space, If it doesn't conflict with my rights, do I care? Not very much. It's when that person's identity, it's such a silly word identity. It's when that person's wants and desires become something that I have to deal with. I don't want to deal with it. I don't think it's any of my business. Don't make it my business. Don't bring it into my kids' schools. Don't bring it into my changing rooms, my female only space. Now, the dehumanising element, it depends how far we want to go. I feel it's quite dehumanising to say that any man can be a woman. I think that totally devalues and dehumanise what it is to be a woman. But I don't think people would say that that was dehumanising,

whereas if I say that person is a man, I should be able to say that person is a man. As a female, I understand that that person poses much more of a threat to me than a female. Now, that can be from flashing or just looking at somebody. Now, you lovely gents, you prostate havers, you probably haven't had those sort of exchanges which most women have since basically you get breasts. And so the moment that you sort of turn into a woman and sometimes even before, there's a lot of kind of uncomfortable staring and that informs the way that most women feel about men.

And I don't think that means that every time I encounter a bloke, I think, oh God, he's a pervert, he's probably a rapist. I don't feel like that at all. But I can definitely feel creepy men, you know? And I think women feel it much more. Women are vulnerable to men in certain situations. It's just a fact, right? Yeah. And go on.

No, one of the things, when people talk about, oh, the toilet issue not being an issue, this is the argument that someone presented to me. And I don't really think there's a counter argument to it, which is in a nightclub situation. Every woman has experienced as a creepy guy who's following her around, who's making her feel uncomfortable. Where's the number one place she heads to in the nightclub as a method of escape? She goes to the female toilets. That is a safe space. If that is obliterated, she's got nowhere to go. I know. It's, I was lucky enough to go on holiday this year,

and I've just come back, and we went for a McDonald's breakfast, because we are classy. And we went into the McDonald's, and I went to the loo, and I'm in the cubicle, and a man comes in, right? It's not speaking English,

seems to be in quite a rush, pushes open the door. I promise this is what I did. I just went and just didn't breathe. I didn't kind of, my instant response, it wasn't a rational thing, I just didn't breathe until he'd left. Because him in that space totally changed that space.

I wouldn't have felt like that if it was a woman's voice. And so for some reason we're having to pretend that that isn't how we feel when we hear a man's voice. And it's not, like I said, I'm married to a lovely bloke, but no matter how desperate he was for the loo, he's not going in the women's toilets because he understands how women feel about men in their space. It's why most men would cross over the road

and not walk behind a woman walking on her own. And do you think most women feel like that, or do you think it's just the way a certain section of women feel? I think most women feel like that. There's a book by Gavin DeBacker called The Giff's, of fear and it talks about your body basically knows will respond to something quicker than you will and you'll feel it so that's like my my holding my breath now what I could have done which I think now what a lot of women do is they would rationalise it and start reasoning with that instant

response and they would rationalise something that should probably make them afraid and will protect them and I think that is happening really scarily with this younger generation of women where they're not allowed to trust their emotions at all and their instincts. They're being told that they're mean, they're unkind. And so I think it's really quite dangerous. I don't know a single woman that wouldn't feel afraid in a public toilet, for example, if a man came in. Well, that makes perfect sense.

So come back to my compassion point, though. Okay. Yeah? Because I do want to explore that because of all the questions that I've now answered, for myself. That is one I'm still struggling with. You don't strike me as a bigoted person or as a nasty person at all. A lot of people think you are, though. And I know now why that is, because you'll refuse to bend on things that matter, right? That's why people consider you a nasty person, because you say it like it is on the subject that most people are very

uncomfortable with, right? That's why. So, but I think we all ought to, and I think we all tried to actually, have compassion at the same time. So how do we, the language and the conversation seems extremely polarized. Is there any way that this conversation can be had in a more healthy way or do you just feel like it's a war and you have to win? How can I put this? Because in a war, compassion is not a virtue, it's a vice. Yeah. You have to, you have to win. Well, I do, I do feel like. I do feel like, I do have to win. Yeah.

Because what is at stake is phenomenal and just horrific. So, for example, the word woman. I was in a meeting the other day and women who would call themselves feminists, like proper radical feminists, use the words, use the words female people instead of woman. Now, I can only imagine the reason she felt she had to use female people is because the word woman would sound too coarse, too forthright, too exclusionary. And so she didn't use it. Now, the reason we can't talk in terms that you maybe feel it doesn't show any compassion

is because we've lost some of the words that we should be able to use for this. Now, do I think a man that can't go out or just feels that he needs to live as something else, whatever that might mean to him? Do I feel compassion for any human who, I think they're probably wrong that that will end their suffering, but who am I? You know, of course I feel compassion for everybody, but my compassion is so used up by the women that will lose their rights, lose the ability to be able to say at work. Actually, I don't really want Janet using the toilets. I felt really uncomfortable. or the woman that wants to remove her hijab at lunchtime

and wants to go in the loo to do it and she can't do it anymore because she can't guarantee that's a female only space or the teenage girl who goes in a changing room in a communal changing room or where there's communal parts to a female changing room and there's a guy who, oh I don't know, I think we used to call it indecent exposure

who's bravely getting his female penis out in the changing room. I'm, it's spent. My compassion is fully spent. on women and girls. So I'm not inhuman. I do think that all human beings should have equal access to equal rights, but not at my expense.

And you say not at your expense. What's going to be the end game, do you think? If you don't, if you say that the war is lost, if it is a war. Look where we are. We've got rapists and women's presidents, Let's look at America. So America is, so I sell merchandise and raise awareness, and I've sold merchandise to a quarter of the countries in the known world.

So I think it's quite a global issue for women. 25% of all my stuff goes to the USA. In America, in California prisons, there are pregnant women who have probably had pretty awful lives in the prison population, who were impregnated by other women that are in the prison population. Those women aren't allowed to know, so they sleep about eight in a room in American prisons.

Those women aren't allowed to know that there's a man coming into their prison cell, and there's also men going in with HIV into women's prisons, and that person's human rights to not let anybody know they've got HIV, completely supersedes the women's rights to know that somebody is coming in with HIV. So we could be there. We could be where America is,

where they slice off the breasts of like 13-year-old girls. At 15, you can do it without your parents' consent in Oregon. We could be like Canada, where they'll take your kids away if you don't affirm their so-called gender. I think Jordan Peterson said about the compassion thing, is it ultimately compassionate to lie? And I don't think it is. I think a really brave, kind thing, and, you know, like I say, I've got kids.

The kindest thing I do for my kids is not necessarily give them what they want. And I still love them and adore them. But, you know, if my son wanted to get up every day and have like a 200 grand bar of chocolate for his breakfast, I'm not going to allow him to do that. And that would be an act of kindness and compassion. Where I found this ideology starting to encourage more and more, not into our lives, I think we can all agree that we all live pretty weird lives when you consider what we do.

But when I talk to my friends who have got regular jobs, and all of a sudden now, they've had to tell people what their pronouns are and how they want to be addressed. And you see that in very, very liberal media circles, like in the theatre, we're at the start of the rehearsal, everybody has to announce their pronouns. But it's also coming into the corporate world. I can tell that you're not going to agree with this.

Why do you disagree with the whole pronoun thing and having to announce it? I think it's quite weird. I think, I mean, what do people want? Like, clearly, this is what, I went to a feminist meeting a long time ago and I did my first, like, Facebook Live. And they sort of wanted pronouns. Now, I look like, I look like this. I'm five foot one.

I'm quite clearly a woman. if you don't know what my pronouns might be, then you're a bit of an idiot. And I just think it's asking of people, it's asking people to, it's very sneaky, it's saying, come into this ideology. Nobody really needs to know.

I mean, if we're all supposed to be equal, like if we were in a truly progressive place, then would it really matter what anybody's pronouns are or how anybody identifies at work? I mean, does it mean that you can't do John's a campaign? count on a Friday if you're, are they them? I mean, it's just, I don't, I've got friends who work in places where they have to wear the rainbow lanyard and they hate it. They don't want to. They want to just go to work. You know, not many of them absolutely adore their jobs. They do it

because they want to actually have a life and pay for their mortgage. You know, there's not too many people skipping to work and going, damn, five o'clock on a Friday, damn, I wish I could just the whole weekend. These are our places of work. They're not places to encourage us to be ideologically insane. Do you think this is really where we are and it applies to much more than just the trans issue,

which is we've just, for some reason, I don't really understand why I've decided that the point of all aspects of society is to do social engineering. The police is not about policing crime, it's about social engineering. Civil service is not about running the country. It's about social engineering.

engineering. Comedy is not about making jokes. It's about social engineering. Every aspect of our society, wherever you look, it seems to be that social engineering is the number one priority and the actual function of that organisation seems to be secondary at the very least. If I believed in massive conspiracy theories and I was China, right? I love this right now, wouldn't you? You just place all these little things like, oh, let's not help them think about like long-term financial solutions that are going to make the poorest in the country more wealthy. Let's not do that. Let's make them all talk about gender. Let's make them all talk about racism. Let's do that. I just, if they found a troll farm that was more deadly than COVID,

I wouldn't be surprised. I just think that kind of is the only thing that really does make sense, that the information war is upon us. And loads of these things, they're not real issues, are they? No. A real issue is not being able to buy a house in your, like, mid-20s or 30s. I just talked to a lovely taxi driver. My parents were both manual workers. They got married as teenagers.

Within three years of being married and they had two children by then, living with my grandmother, they could afford a house. And my dad literally sorted sheep's kids. in a, I mean, they both did very well, they both worked really hard. And my mother was a, with cleaned offices because she had small children. They could buy a house. When I was a little girl, teachers were well off. They were the people in the nice houses and the brand new estates.

They had big houses. Now, I think that's, maybe that's the whole replacement thing. If you think about these kind of ethereal, ideological things, you're not really thinking about, actually, my life's pretty bad. I've got no control. I'm never going to be able to afford to buy a house. I'm never going to be able to leave this job. My rent is so high, which means I can't save for a deposit.

All of those things are really, really important. They make a difference. Work as rights. So in this country, we've got the Equality Act, and I was looking into it to see whether or not we should just totally get rid of it and start again and have separate, like a Disability Rights Act. for example, because I think that really is important, just to go on a tangent. Trains may be emblazoned with pride flags, but most people with disabilities have to plan a journey

months in advance to make sure that there's someone to meet them and half the stations don't even have, you can't even get off a train onto a platform. Nobody cares about that. It's much better to talk about the minority rights of LGBT people, which I have. have no idea what rights those people don't have in this country. And now I've forgotten where I've gone with my tangent. Well, actually, you were making, I think, what is a very profound point, which is all of these distractions and the conversations we have about all of these issues, which are much more intellectual than practical, are a way of giving us all something to chew on

mentally and to try and control in a world in which we increasingly control less and less, have less and less, particularly for young people, opportunities that they see in front of them going forward. So if you can't control your job, you can't control your housing, you can't control your prospect, but you can control your gender, and by the way, if you start talking about it quite a lot, you're going to get attention,

you're going to get positive reinforcement. If you do it on social media, you might become a mini-celebrity in that world, etc. And it's all the distractions, so should we stop talking about it? Well, we could, but the unfortunate thing is it now has practical consequences. And so I think it did start off as there's something,

like a few people talking about it online, and it blew up. And then the shame of it all, the thing that killed it is when the state got involved. So in 2004, when we made illegal fiction, which was basically to cover up the fact that we were homophobes and we didn't want gay people to marry, same-sex couples to marry,

then we invented this GRA and this gender recognition act and the lovely David Lamy was instrumental. And Norman Tebitt said, are we really creating an act in which women will be have X, Y chromosomes, and men will have X, X, X, this is a fiction, this is not true. And Anne Woodcom, I think, she also spoke against it, conviction politicians, what happened to them. And so it's just, it's, that's the bit that's ruined it.

Because you can have fringe people that kind of think that gender is something ethereal and we can just do whatever we like and isn't that great. And yeah, you know, people have always had crazy ideas. We just didn't have a state that stepped in and gone, oh yeah, that's right. Let's teach it in schools. I think the one part of your argument that people would really push back on is the autogynyphal element of it. And you've used that word once. Number one, what does that actually mean? Okay, so it's the fetish of embodying, of having a vagina

and embodying the body of a woman. So it's about literally wanting to be a woman or believing that you are. So you have a sexual fantasy and you're turned on by yourself as a woman. Right. You look a bit sick. Come on. Or excited, you know or not. depends. I mean, there's new frontiers every day, posing. So that being the case, right?

To what extent do you personally think that people identifying as a woman have this condition, and why do you think that? So I think it's probably a really large number. So we used to call people, we used to call them transsexuals and transvestites. And I think we knew that transvestites had a fetish. And they didn't often walk around the streets in their get-up. They often sort of kept it at home. You know, like where, I don't know, arguably that's where you should perform your kink. So we knew that this happened. We knew that there were issues with it,

but these men used to meet in secret, and it's all a bit shameful and taboo, which is also part of the excitement of being an autokinophile. And Grace and Perry will talk about it. Risk is a big aphrodisiac You know And I mean the first time I went out in my mum's Clothes was very very exciting

And I became addicted to that He'll talk about absolutely That sexual arisal is all part of his dress-up That's why he wears quite wide dresses And he'll talk about that That's not me saying that that's what he does But now we have to pretend that that's not right and it's stunning and brave.

I think about 10% of all porn consumed is, I can't use, they would use the word to describe it. So transsexual or men who have male genitals, but also have breast implants. That's quite high in porn. I talked to a mother and her son had been booted out of a baseball team. And she said that he then sort of went in his,

room for a couple of years. He was absolutely gutted because it was American and obviously in America these things are massive aren't they if you're part of like the first team and unlike in Britain where I think if you're not in the first team there's a second or a third if you're not in the team you're out and he was really depressed and then she said he said that he was a woman he identified as a girl and it transpired that he identified as a girl because he really enjoyed watching pornography featuring lesbians and so he decided he wanted to be. He wanted to be a lesbian. And so that would be the beginnings of what we would call autogynyphilia. There's all sorts of reasons that people have sexual fetishes. There are men that are obsessed

with feet. I know one such man that's obsessed with feet and that's because his mother mainly ignored him but her friend used to kick him under the table. You know, these, I think your sexual fetish kind of the mechanics of it can set before you're sort of six, seven years old. Again, Grace and Perry will talk about this. This is not something that I've made up. So I do think there's a high rate of autokinophilia. Debbie Hayton, for example, that you had on, has written about being an autokinophile. And that being the case, so where does gender dysphoria come into it then? For them, I don't know. I don't know that it does. I think if you had a powerful, like, women don't really have fetishers as much as men. I'm not saying none of us do, but

Generally speaking, we don't. We also don't have the same relationship with sex as men do. Many women have tried to pretend that we're the same as men, but we're really, really not. Our bodies are very, very different. But the driver of sexual fetish and the power I think it can have over someone, if you look at murder, for example, that can sometimes be a sexual fetish.

And so that will go from, as shown in Sarah Everard's murder, flashing, and it will just go up, and it will just increase. And it's all to do with a sexual driver. Often, serial killers are driven by sexual desires. And we know this. We know this. We know that there used to be all sorts of different inquiries into behaviour studies as to why people commit these crimes. we don't seem to want to look at that anymore. I'm going to be honest to you,

when we started the show three and a half years ago, I didn't think we'd be sitting talking about, oh, what are going to... Sorry. No, it's not your fault. I'm just, like, how do we get here? This is so weird. Like, if I try and explain this stuff

to, like, my family back, like, my mum, I'm not even sure I can explain to my mom what I do for a living anymore. We're like, we are through the looking glass with this shit. I know. And I find it very confusing. Honestly. There's kink clubs at universities.

Official kink clubs. What? BDSM. Official university. Is it Discord? So it'll be like... Service, yeah. Yeah.

So BDSM, my son was sent out on Instagram. There was a post about sex work. Being a sex worker as a student. What? Yeah. So I just want this clarified because I'm suddenly feeling very old. and very conservative. Sex workers in prostitution or being a stripper or...

No, as in anything goes, anything. How to be safe and a sex worker at uni. How to pay your way through uni being a sex worker. Do you think the pendulum is just overswung here, Kelly? You know, the society was discriminatory against gay people. It was discriminatory against women. and in the process of liberating all those groups and making sure they all had the same rights as everybody else,

we kind of just went, you know what, let's not have shame about anything. Let's say that everything is normal, everything, every human instinct is to be celebrated. There's nothing wrong with anything. There's no right or wrong. That's moralistic judgments, and we need to, everything is relative

and it's all about, you know, whatever. And we've just gone a little bit too far and therefore we're going to have a correct. back when the pendulum sort of slows and stops and then swings back? What I fear is that we'll go so far into chaos that the only thing that will be able to bring us back is a very prescriptive religion. Yeah.

So I do fear that it's like humans at the moment are all running around. Nobody knows what's morally okay. In the 1980s, single mothers were demonised, terrible. They're the sort of people that were left back. behind raising children. And that was, they were supposed to feel a great deal of shame. And now you've got women in pyjamas, walking their kids to school, eating a packet of frazzles for breakfast, with no shame whatsoever. And if you criticize those women, if you say, Jesus, like, how is that kid going to have any sort of life or whatever? You're like, oh, well, you know, that's really

shameful and shaming. But I bring it back, I say. Bring Bring back shame. Well, this is, I mean, I said this other day, like the culture was basically turning a lot of normal people into these radical reactionaries simply because quite a lot of us are just going, you've gone too far now, you know, like some things ought not to be encouraged. Do you know, and I mean, you gave an example there, but, you know, single parenthood, whether it's mothers or fathers. To say that it's not going to lead to the best outcome statistically speaking,

now you're shaming whatever, slut shaming. Well, is it a good idea for women to have sex with hundreds of men and to treat sex the way men do who are designed biologically very differently? Is it? Or should, I mean, every society prior to us has had some sort of restrictions around that to encourage certain types. Do we throw all past learning out of the window? I reckon, apparently, that's where we're going.

I think religion left and the big gaping void that it's left is being filled with narcissistic desires. I think that's, and I'm an atheist, I'm a gold star atheist, I've never believed in God at all. But I do think I'm very lucky to have been born in a country where the themes of Christian moral thinking were still running through our education system. Whereas now, it's really weird on the left, isn't it? Because they'll really go for Christians, but not other religions, which I would argue, were maybe much more problematic than Christianity,

much more prescriptive, much more sexist. And it's just, it's really interesting. I made a comment on... She's talking about Mormonism. Well, I made a comment the other night about... I think I might even been talking about Afghanistan and someone said something about, they were American, they said something about their country

was really bad on abortion, as if it was comparable. I was like, well, find me a Christian government that is controlling a country and stopping women from being able to have jobs, and I'm going to agree with you 100%. But America, well, it's a republic, but it's like a democratic republic.

And they've decided in some places, I totally don't agree. But they've decided in some places that they don't want people to have access to abortion and past a certain point. I don't think that is barbarism. I think they're totally wrong and I think they need to win the argument properly in those places. But that is what democracy is about. It's not always about doing the things that are right or that you totally agree with.

It's about the will of the people. To me, a large part of the problem comes from feminism itself. Anton, get the smelling salts. We tried to have this conversation last time, if you remember. Yeah. Because she called me an MRA pretty much. That was my jokes. But you look at a lot of what feminism should be standing up for.

It's standing up for women. And they don't seem to be. Like, you see what's happening in Afghanistan. Where are the feminists up in arms about the treatment of women? women? Where are they commenting? You know, they will absolutely lambast, and I don't know enough about the issue about what's happening in America, but they won't criticize Islam. No, I know. And you go, well, hang on a second. What, is it only white women that you care about, or Western women? Oh, no, there's cultural relativism. So if it's happening in another culture,

then you can't comment. So if somebody's getting their genitals completely sliced off in another country, you shouldn't really talk about that. I had a discussion with somebody other day online and she totally lost the argument, but it was very funny. So I was sort of trying to say, look, I know you don't agree with me, I really respect the fact that you'll talk because I'm trying to understand

why anybody would think it's all right for a child age four to call themselves the opposite sex, like where you think that goes, what do you think the harms are, blah, blah, blah. And she said, well, you know, different people make different life choices. In some countries, there's child marriage. But in some countries there's child marriage. But, you know, culturally, that's not okay here.

And I was like, have you just said it's all right that there's child marriage? And she said, well, I'm just saying people make different choices. I went, what child has made that choice? I was like, look, you've lost the argument. Let's just move past that bit because I still wouldn't understand. But yeah, there are people that talk in those terms. So do feminist care. Well, it depends what sort of feminist, but do feminists care about Afghanistan?

There have been some radical feminists, about 30 of them, who rescued quite a lot of women. And so I do think they care. It's a bit like Qatar with the football. Are they going to take the knee for all the slaves that died building the stadium? Will they take the knee there, or is it only historical slavery that we need to care about? It's all this nonsense. Like there's people fishing for prawn.

in Thailand where what they do is they take a load of people and they chuck one person off right at the beginning of the trip so everybody just does exactly as they're told. You know, there's modern slavery that totally dwarfs historical slavery. But we don't, nobody's talking about that. It's, so, let's go back to the origins of feminism. Do I think feminism has a part to play? Yes, I probably do. I think there is something in the notion,

even with second wave that said men and women are the same, it's just the way we're socialised. So I inhabit this body. It's female. It's five foot one. I'd probably be a different person if I was five foot eight. I'd probably be a different person if I had totally different facial features. You know,

I think it's a mistake to try and say that nothing is to do with our biology, which then would lead you to the female brain. but also I have this feeling about instinct and it comes back to the fact that I think I'm informed not just by my own experiences but by the experience and legacy of people that have come before me and not in some weird kind of sense not in that past life kind of proper memory

but in the way that humans know to clench their fists when they're tiny babies you know, if you do that to a baby, they'll clench their fist. These little puppies I've got at home at the moment, they basically swim around and they know how to root to make sure that they can feed. And so to say that we're not born with other legacy of behaviours that may be directly correlated with our sex,

I don't think that's like the most preposterous idea I've ever had. No, I don't think it is. And I don't want to be in this place. I don't want to be this person going, yeah, we need to go or whatever. But here's another question, which is different. for I think for feminism and you're not part of that movement. But what about gender stereotypes, right? Because how much of that is biological, right?

How much of that ought to be encouraged to facilitate a normal, quote, unquote, woman or a normal, quote, unquote, man functioning in society? Because if you encourage men to behave in ways that are suitable for men in the society that you exist, you're making their life easier, right? If you encourage women to behave in ways that help them navigate the society that we live in, well, you are indoctrinating them with certain ideas about right and wrong and how do you behave and what you wear sometimes and all of that stuff, do we throw all of that out of the window or do we need a bit of that?

That's the question, isn't it? Well, I'm a heterosexual woman, so I quite like to be, well, I don't know if I'd do that anymore, but I'd quite like to be attracted to the opposite sex. And to say, there's loads of modern things that people say is a proof that men and women and it's biological, but loads of the things that they would use to prove that, they can't be biological because years and years ago, those things didn't exist. But do I think my husband and I are fundamentally different? Yes. My hypothalamus when I was pregnant with babies and then had a baby, if my baby woke up in the middle of the night,

I woke up before my baby. Before I could hear my baby, I was awake because I'm somehow connected. Because I don't know, I'm a mammal that's supposed to keep their baby alive. And my husband's role, he always felt, was not just to care for our children, but to make sure I was all right so I could care for our children, which makes me a trad wife. In short supply and in high demand. I know, it's so weird.

But he also is in it. We are in a very fortuitous position that I could stay home and look after my children, which is not something that many women can do. And I would like to see more women have a genuine choice to do that if they wish. I don't see the reason that we should send a woman back to Tesco's to sack shelves to pay somebody else crappy wages to look after her child. While she earns crappy wages, I think the government should pay

women to stay at home or tax break somehow something. I certainly don't want the state any more involved than it is. I'm a little bit different. What I'm getting at is if we're talking about sort of like the pendulum not swinging too far, I wonder whether an element of gender stereotype teaching children, well, you're a boy, this is what you do, you're a girl, this is how you behave, right? I mean, is that entirely not wrong and evil and uses? I mean, give you an example, right?

Boys don't cry, right? And we now talk about how, oh, men are all, they've got all these feelings that they're not letting. I don't know that it's good for men to be letting out all their feelings. I don't know that society responds to men letting out all their feelings in a way that makes it a good idea for men to do that. I don't know that men's biology is necessarily geared towards that way of releasing emotion. Men do different things to deal with and process emotion.

So the idea that you talked about this were all the same. I don't know that we're all the same even on that level, even on the level of cultural teaching of how you behave and how you behave. Because as you say, there was a point where feminism was advocating, well, that's all just wrong and bad and we just need to, everyone's a blank slate. Are we? Exema is unpredictable. But you can flare less with ebbglis, a once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema.

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Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebbglis. Before starting, Ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about ebbglis. And visit ebglis.com or call 1800 lilyrx or 1-800 545-979. God, I don't know. I like to think that my kids were allowed to play with whatever they wanted. My daughter's probably the least likely to have cried up to the age of about seven, well, even now.

And I don't cry very much either. I don't imagine you too. I'm a little bit. I do angry. But I just don't cry very much. And I don't know if anybody should be crying a lot, to be honest. But I do think that the lightened shade of male and female, I think it complements. Yeah.

You know, my husband couldn't fall apart when I just had a baby. I probably had to fall apart a little bit when I just had a baby because I was very, very, very tired. And so he needed to be strong. There have been times where he's had a couple of issues or whatever, but it wouldn't be particularly attractive. would it if he sat at the kitchen table crying every day. Having a breakdown.

It just, that's my point. And I, I'm not supposed to have said that obviously. I hate being the guy who's like, actually things were, I don't want to be in this position. But on that hand, like I said, the entirety of the culture war can be summed up

by that meme where you've got like a normal person in one of these like pink-haired weirdos. And the pink-haired weirdos says to the normal person who radicalized you, and the normal person says, you. Right? To me, that is the entire point.

There's the entire core of the culture war. It's normal people having this ship pushed on them that doesn't make any sense. It doesn't work. It's not connected to reality. It's impractical. And it's hurting people. The backlash is not going to be nice.

And that's my worry. When do you think that's going to happen? And what is it going to look like? Well, I think we saw it a little bit in the football stadium, didn't we? When they started like, no, we're not going to have. have you kneeling. Like, we're not racist.

We've solved that. Like, you know, so, I mean, maybe there are still as racism in football. I don't go to football matches. I don't know. But I can't imagine that too many people have much tolerance for racial abuse in the stands. So I think it's coming. I think people are really beginning to have enough. But I think it's going to get so much worse before that backlash comes.

And I think people will start joining. people will start all the things that we're supposed to fear we're supposed to think the biggest threat in this country is the far right i mean i've yet to really see them for these remarkably visible powerful men um that are patrolling our streets i don't think they that is the biggest threat to this country i think the biggest threat is lies and dishonesty and a lack of reality or a lack of like people basically are throwing water in your face and going you're completely dry what are you talking about it, like wiping water. Do you think that this is going to be the issue that breaks a whole culture war?

Well, the trans stuff. Possibly because it is just in your face untrue. Like, as a white person, I probably can't speak to what levels of racism really happen on a daily basis because it's very likely that I'm not going to see and I'm not going to hear them. So somebody could have two points of view and they could both be telling exactly

what is happening in their lives and they could be polar opposites, but both would be true. Men can be women, women can be men. That's, it's either true or it's not true. There are no points of view, there's no two points of view on that where both people are telling the truth.

And I think that's the fundamental difference between almost any of the other cancelling culture war stuff going on. And where do you stand on this whole idea that sex and gender are separate? That sex is one thing and gender is another altogether? Well, I think gender is a big, fat mistake to even bring it into the world. Even to give birth to that word, it just is the beginning of such a load of nonsense. So I think there is biological sex and I think there are stereotypes and I think there are

sex roles and I think there are lots of things associated with me being female and you guys being male. The idea that gender exists somewhere that isn't dependent on those things is a stupid, stupid argument made up by feminists, made up by some people in universities, but yeah, feminist theory that sort of started talking about that. So you could basically take a person's... I don't know, what is it? I mean, it's kind of religious, isn't it? So one of my kids were saying the other day...

Sorry, I'm just going... One of my kids said the other day about somebody who identified. And I said, well, you either have to believe two things. You either have to believe that gender is some unquantifiable, metaphysical, non-existent, can't touch it thing that exists in every human, like a soul.

Or you have to believe that the code of DNA did every single bit right that did my female body right and then when it got to my brain it went, oh, I think I'm just going to put a male one here and then builds the rest of my body around it. Those two things are the only thing that make gender remotely possible thing, and I think both are nonsense. And that's going to trigger a few people, both.

It's such a weird place that we're in. I don't really know what to say. I just find it all incredibly weird. And I see these discussions, and Mumsnet love to talk about us and us having these conversations, and they get this, and they don't get this, and are the allies. I don't care.

I care about the truth. I care about the truth, right? And the truth is, just because you uttered an incantation that does not change who you are biologically. It fucking doesn't. It doesn't, right? And it doesn't make me an ally or an enemy or anything.

And it doesn't mean that I don't care about people and I'm not compassionate towards them and I don't want them to be included in as much as they can be. I just don't want to lie. I don't want to lie. And I think a lot of people are starting to feel that way that increasingly living in society now

requires you to lie on a daily basis and to accept things that you shouldn't have to accept. It's very frustrating because I really don't want to be in this position. No. I like to think of myself as this, hey, everybody do what you want, I'm liberal, you know, in the actual meaning of the way liberal, right? Well, apparently I'm not anymore.

You know, I'm a bigger just like you. Well, I think you probably are, liberal. I think they're the bigots, aren't they? To insist to enforce an ideology on somebody is pretty crappy. I mean, like the euphemism goes even through to what is a mother. Now we've got the rise of surrogacy as if that's a gay human right. And gay men in surrogacy circles are just called infertile because two men can't have a baby together.

So they're now called infertile. No. They're just men. And so surrogacy is massively on the uprise. And the changing of language in those laws is frightening as hell. Even in the trans thing, they call people young people. They don't call them children. Right.

And so just that little switcheroo, you're a teacher. We're a teacher. But just even that little switch of talking about young people instead of children, I think totally changes the way. we can talk about young people, children, agency. You can't say child has agency and autonomy to make these decisions and consent. As soon as you say something like a child can consent, you're just really on a quick direct line to any of the famous paedophiles we could think about.

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like if children can consent to taking a vaccine against their parents' wishes, if they consent to taking puberty blockers, what else are they going to be able to? to consent to very soon. All right, look, we haven't had enough conflict in this one. The last thing.

Insult Posey, go on. Yeah, no. The one, I'm a feminist. No, the one question. Yeah, the worst. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say he's going to grab you after this. Don't do that.

No, no, absolutely not. I'm not left wing. Right, okay, so here's the thing. What does that say about that? What does that say, what does this conversation say about as a society as a whole? God, I think it says that we are divorcing really quickly from reality, really quickly. And I think it's quite dangerous. All the tangible places you could have a nice foothold, they're disappearing.

So biological sex, what parentage might be. You know, it's all this surface level wants and desires have replaced. rights and concrete things that we need to sustain. You know, most people spend a lot of their time on their phones, not talking to people in real life. I think the pandemic probably exacerbated that somewhat. You know, I've hardly heard anybody talk about how horrific it must have been for elderly people. I mean, it's bad enough for anybody being on their own.

But for some people, they might have spent 18 months of their last two years on a earth, barely seeing anybody who are having a conversation on a daily basis. Now I think that is something that is worth talking about rather than someone's identity. So I just, I don't know, we need to get back to real, tangible, consequence-led sort of society where you can genuinely affect change in your own life. I think we've got to a point where in order to be someone, you just have to say something, whereas it used to be that you'd have to do something. You'd have to really do something to be someone.

That's what people wanted to do. Even if it was to be the best plumber that anybody had ever come across or write a novel or climb a mountain or whatever it is, but now you just have to come out. Oh, I'm genderqueer. What does that mean? It means once I had a blue fringe,

that's the be all and end all of my identity. That's all I've ever done. aren't you stunning and brave? Oh God, you're amazing. And on that note, Pursi, thank you so much for coming on the show. The one question we always finish, before we do our questions for locals, is what's the one thing we're not talking about,

but we really should be? Well, I think in the light of the Sarah Everard murder, I think we really do need to talk about what police, serving police officers actually get away with and why something like, indecent exposure, which I'm not even going to say his name, which the murdering rapist, evil crap man, he committed in 2015 and how he managed to keep his job. So I think we need to look at low level, what's called low level sexual assault and how we used to know that that leads,

can lead, can be the first step in some really serious crimes. It's a very important point. Kelly J. Keene, thank you so much for coming back. We're going to do a couple of questions for locals before we do. Where are you not yet banned from online that people can find you? There's so many places. I can't even sign a change.org petition. I'm banned from that. So you can find my YouTube channel, Kelly J. Keene.

You can find me at Standing for Women. And all of our lovely merchandise is on adulthumanfemale. dot store. Thanks for coming back and thank you for watching and listening at home. We'll see you very soon with another brilliant interview like this one or a show. All of them go out at 7pm UK time. Plus if you're on the move and you want your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast. Take care and see you soon, guys. We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview. Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode. And if you believe that the work we do here at trigonometry is important, support us by joining our locals community using the link below.