TRIGGERnometry - Posie Parker: "Women's Safety is More Important Than Men's Feelings"

Episode Date: November 24, 2022

Listen to Rob Moore’s no.1 ranked ‘Disruptors’ podcast with the world’s most disruptive guests & billionaires. Plus get access to a digital financial toolkit that will help you save money - Go now to:  http://bit.ly/robtoolkit SPONSORED by Established Titles: a fun and novel way to preserve the natural woodlands of Scotland whilst helping global reforestation efforts. Established Titles is running a massive Early Black Friday Sale right now, plus if you use the code TRIGGERNOMETRY you get an additional 10% off. Go to https://EstablishedTitles.com/TRIGGER... to get your gifts now! Posie Parker - real name Kellie-Jay Keen - is a women's rights campaigner who focuses on preserving female language and spaces for females only. Check out our first and second interviews with her here: 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdpc2r4cBxQ 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqO02-RWKLg Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ | Channel ID: UCo_8zzSxKeL3arKWVuP8wdQ Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​/ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. If you identify and dress and behave and whatever as a trans woman and you end up in a male prison, you would be more at more danger. There's no question about that. I think most of them are autogynophiles, right?

I think it's a sexual fetish. I don't think that makes someone vulnerable. It's not true what you said, which is these people just want to be validated as women. There are trans people, many of them we've had on the show, who don't want that. They just want to live their life. I don't think that's true, Constitin. If you have fake breasts and long hair and call yourself by a female name, do you think they don't want to be seen as women?

I think they do, but that doesn't mean they're willing to invade your space. They will literally slice the breasts of a 13-year-old girl. They will do it. There's nullification surgery. Sorry, clarify, what is that, posing? What nullification surgery? From the chin down, you get rid of your nipples, you get rid of your belly button,

you get rid of any external genitalia, like male or female, and you just have it smooth except for your pipework. Like, they literally will dehumanise your torso. I was even going to go to Portland, which we had to cancel because there were credible death threats. Wow. Do you know who's from? Yeah.

Well, there was all Antifa. There's a man who's actually a famous model with his top down, with his fake breasts, shaking them at women, shouting, saying, these hands don't discriminate. I will F you up. I ain't dancing to anybody's tune. I just won't do it. Hey Francis, do you like entrepreneurs? Not really.

What do you mean? What do you think we'd do at trigonometry? Annoyed people on the internet cause meltdowns on Twitter and destroy people with logic and facts. Right, stop stealing my catchphrases. It's facts and logic. I'm just saying, being an entrepreneur is against my culture. Why would I work hard when I could just lie on the beach in a sombrero, shouting, hey, hey, hey.

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I'm Constance and Kissin. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Well, it doesn't get any more fascinating than the guest we have returning for you today for the third. time she holds the record for our most viewed interview ever. Kelly J Keene, welcome back to Trichonometry. Oh, thank you so very much. It's good to have you back. As you can see, we're building our new studio at the moment and you've been traveling in the US. We haven't really had a chance to pay too much attention to what's been going on. Unbelieve, yeah, unbelievable from us. How are you? I'm really good. Yeah, really, really good.

So what mischief have you got up to in the US then? So I decided to do a tour and it started in LA, went up to San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, Austin and then East Coast and it was called Let Women Speak and it really is just creating a space in which women feel that they can speak

about what's happening in America, which is insane. That doesn't sound controversial at all, Kelly. It's, I knew I had to do it because it's the belly of the beast, right? So I was even going to go to Portland, which we had to cancel because there were credible death threats. Wow. Do you know who from?

Yeah. Well, it was all Antifa. But this particular guy was raising money to buy some weapons. Yeah, and we, I mean, other parts of them. of our events. We had people that you could see had reinforced gloves on. Long story, like a woman got her fingers crushed and broken.

They, it was just, yeah, anyway, going back to the story. It's about the numerous women, and we're making a documentary, so the idea is to record the dissent because the most known documentary against this stuff is, by a man who I'm grateful that he's done it, but it is embedded in part of his other kind of agenda. And I want this to be a women's story because it's our language that's being erased.

It's our bodies. And I know the children is a huge issue, but I don't want another episode in human history to pass us by when it's the story of women. Well, you're an optimist. Damn you. But tell us more about it. So for people joining us who are less familiar with you than we are,

you're a woman's rights campaigner. We had you on the show, I think, back in 2019 or 20, probably 2019, when you sort of very articulately talked us out of some of the, let's say, sort of inherited views that many people have about, the issue of transgender rights and the conflict between that and women's rights and the safety of children. So you go to America to talk, basically, about this issue. Yes. And what happens?

So it's a jump off from the Speaker's Corner's, Speaker Corner events I do every month, the last end of every month. And we've started to do them around the UK, and America's massive. So what happens is I say I'm going to be somewhere. I work with an organising team, local organizing team of women. They get permits if they need them. Sometimes we just do guerrilla talks, which means we just turn up and hope we don't get moved. And women who feel that they can come out, do come out.

It's not huge in number. But then I've got my documentary guy with me. And you're just giving the microphone and you talk. There is no political affiliation. There's nothing that you can't say besides whatever is illegal in the location that you're at. So, you know, that brings with it certain other risks. But it really is genuine free speech, tested, genuine free speech.

And we don't seem to have that tradition as much in this country, do we? No, well, those speakers' corners go, but now it's just populated by people talking about God. of different varieties. So we do, I did it because I recognise that women in the modern public square, which is social media, were censored all the time.

We just can't talk. I'm sure I've mentioned it before. I'm banned from Mamsnet, Twitter. I can't advertise on Facebook. I can't advertise on Instagram. My Posie Parker account got banned from Facebook. My Eventbrite events have been taken off because they're hateful.

I can't sign a chance. Change.org petition. You know, I'm censored from everywhere. Kelly, if I am a random person watching this conversation, I haven't come across you before, maybe haven't come across trigonometry before, what are these hateful things that you're saying exactly? That women don't have penises,

that men don't have vaginas, no man gives birth, that women's anatomy is to be named properly. And I don't want euphemisms. I don't want, we're not menstruators. women. It's protecting the language around women and not using any of that language for men. So there's no such thing as a trans woman. There's just a man. There's no such thing as non-binary. It's just a very special person. And so it's that sort of stuff. It's saying that we shouldn't transition children. So everything that's, every part of our language and narrative that's being

co-opted by this transgender ideology is something that I want to take back. I see. And remember when we did our first ever interview, one of the... we had a lot of back and forth, and I think it's fair to say both Francis and I have come much closer to your position since then, which is to your credit.

But also, the one issue that I still feel that every time you talk about it is, what... Is it not... Look, it's a conflict between the rights of different groups. Is that what's going on here? Right?

Yeah. You're not comfortable saying it like that? Well, it... Yeah, let's leave it. Yes, okay. For the... Yeah. Why the hesitation around that kind of? Well, because I feel it's...

A conflict, it sort of imagines that there are two positions of equal value. No, not necessarily equal value, but just two different positions. And there are some people who hold this position and some people are this position. Yes. And this group has certain rights that it wants to have, and this group has certain rights that it wants to have, and they're in conflict with each other. So, to make it very simple, if I am a trans... man, trans woman, right?

Used to be a man transitioned, and I want to go into a women's toilet. There are women in there who may not want me in there, right? That's the conflict. Yeah. Right? But what I never understood about your position, I still don't understand is,

would it not just be a lot easier to say a trans woman is not a woman, which I agree with, but why do we have to be so insistent that they're men, as opposed to just going, it's a trans woman and it's a different category and we can talk about

what rights they have and don't have can we not make that accommodation? Let me walk you down this very friendly path so when you use female language for men even when you put trans women in front of it you put that man as a category of woman and he loses the identifiable kind of everything that comes with being a man

right? And so that's why we're here having this discussion in the first place. That's why I just got stopped at the train station by someone talking about her trans women friends. It's because we've confused people by pretending that they're not men and that there are something else. Well then they're categorically men for everything that's important and essential, whether it's their mortality, whether it's their DNA, whether it's their behavior, their propensity to commit crime, the way they make women feel, they are men. That's why. And what would you say to those people who are saying that this category are vulnerable, this trans women category that are vulnerable, therefore there needs to be some kind of special dispensation. You know, it doesn't, you know,

maybe not entering women's spaces, which is, I agree with you on that, but also as well, can we really treat them as men and put them into, for instance, a male prison? Isn't that dangerous for them? See, now we get to a point where I think I don't know if I care too much and I don't know if I agree with the argument that they are vulnerable. I think if you're a man and to go outside of your house, you stick on a dress and a bag wig,

I just don't see where you're vulnerable. Let's pretend that I think... You would be vulnerable in a men's prison. You would be. But why would you do it? Do what? But if you have a choice, why would you do it? Well, the argument would be that these people, that's how they feel, right?

So they don't have a choice. That's how they are. Well, I'm a woman. I genuinely feel like a woman, and yet I'm wearing trousers and a t-shirt. No, but that's not the argument. The argument is if you identify and dress and behave and whatever as a transatlantic. woman and you end up in a male prison, you would be at more danger. There's no question about that. Would you be in more danger than maybe an autistic man in a man's prison? Probably, yes.

I don't think you would. I genuinely don't think you would. I think there's many vulnerable people in male prison populations. I agree with, yeah. Which is why the suicide rate is so high and the rates of violence is so high. And I don't think that those men are any more vulnerable or in need of consideration. And certainly not putting them into a women's woman's woman. prison. There is not a point at which...

I wasn't suggesting that. No, neither was I. OK. The argument then, but you mentioned women's prisons or not putting them in male prisons, is that right? But I didn't say, I didn't say put them in women's prisons. Okay, sorry. So my argument, and I think is Constantin's as well, is that this is a very small subcategory of people who maybe they shouldn't have access to female spaces, but maybe they need their own spaces, if you see what I mean. Yeah. That's where I would come as it from.

Okay. So you say that, for instance, there are some people who just put on a wig in a badly fitting dress, but there's also men who take, you know, who have transitioned surgically. They've taken hormones. They're not, are they completely men?

Yes. If I bring my cat in now and I cut all her legs off and her ears and a tail, she's still a cat. I agree, biologically. It should probably be more vulnerable, though. Wouldn't you agree with that? Yeah, I think that's a fair point. Well, if I tried to throw her out of a small window, yeah.

Okay, let's go along with your idea that these men are vulnerable. I really don't know if I agree. And let's say that I think most of them are autokynophiles, right? So I think it's a sexual fetish. I don't think that makes someone vulnerable. But even if I decided that some of them had gender dysphoria, whatever that might be. Do I think we should campaign, well, I certainly won't waste any time doing it,

but do I think there should be campaigns that offer a solution beyond, chuck them in with women and let them use women's spaces? Absolutely. Is that what any of them want? Definitely not. What they want is to be validated as women. So part of their whole kind of the rights that I need is to force everybody else to lie and see myself as I see myself.

But Kelly, you're talking in generalisations that. I mean, Debbie Haiton, who we've had on the show, who is a trans woman. Yes. She made the point that you're making, actually, which is I shouldn't be in a women's space because women would be uncomfortable with me there. What the government needs to do

is maybe in this very specific instance provide some kind of special facility where people like me can go because I'd be scary to women in a women's prison and I probably would be quite vulnerable in a male's prison, right? And you know how much I like you, don't you? But I think this is where sometimes people think,

and we've talked about this off-camera, people think you're angry when I don't think you are, or hateful when I actually don't think you are. But when you say, well, I won't waste any time or I don't care about these people or whatever, and you're talking these quite broad brushstrokes, and you put a lot of people into the same category. And actually, just like in any other group of people,

whether it's women or men or trans or whatever, there are people who see things differently, right? So I'm just urging you to have a little bit more nuance, if you will. Okay, so Debbie Hatton that you happily mentioned has written about him being an autogynophile. So he's written that. He also wrote guidance that put boys into girls' spaces in schools. So, and you can find it.

No, but let's talk about the argument rather than attacking the person. So my argument is not everybody wants to, not everybody who's trans is desperate to get into a woman's prison. I mean, most people aren't desperate to get into any prison. Right. So it's not true what you said, which is these people just want to be validated as women. There are trans people, many of them we've had on the show, who don't want that. They just want to live their life. I don't think that's true, Constitian.

If you have fake breasts and long hair and call yourself, by a female name, do you think they don't want to be seen as women? I think they do, but that doesn't mean they're willing to invade your space in some way. No, but the person that you mentioned, and probably everybody else you might have had on the show who calls himself a woman who isn't,

definitely has used women's spaces. 100%. And so, I can bypass some of the maybe happy, soft-feeling humanity of some of these people, because my goal is to just keep them all out of women's faces. And I don't know if I care about their intentions. I don't think that's any of my business. I don't care if it's nefarious or just jolly or they don't want to invade women's spaces. Five years ago, we weren't talking about this because there wasn't anybody, like,

habitually using women's spaces. I wasn't. It wasn't. It was. It was. It was. It was. We were, wasn't an issue for me before, what, 2015? I had no idea that this was happening. But once I'd heard it was happening and getting so much worse, and I've just come back from a country where women were trying to talk, I couldn't even get to my own event, the police would not help me get there safely. I was late to it because there were 60 at least police officers in New York City. There's women pen caged in trying to speak. There's an assault live on air where a woman gets her hair pulled by a man

calling himself a woman. There's a man who's actually a famous model with his top down, with his fake breasts, shaking them at women, shouting, saying, these hands don't discriminate. I will F you up to women, right? I'm a beat your ass, big.

I'm a beat your ass. I want some cities are more real than you would ever be, bitch. I got bodies. No man wants you. No man. It's a very ladylike behavior. I get your tits out and threatening people. I mean, that sounds like Croydon on a Saturday night.

I have actually seen that. It's kind of the M.O. of many are female. But so I have to focus on those men. I can't be thinking there's no nuance to societal rules when it comes to these specific safeguarding

safety things. We've made our minds up. We know that some of you men are lovely, but we don't want you in our space, and we don't care how you feel about that. It's a done deal. I mean, when it's put like that, I think that's fair enough.

I suppose the circle I'm or the square, I'm trying to circle, the circle I'm trying to square is whatever we may think about it, the fact is that there are trans people, right? And we're going to have to reckon with that one way or another. So I perfectly understand the point you make. I'm just wondering if given that that is a reality that we have to deal with, if there's another way or better way perhaps to rise slightly, to look at a slightly bigger picture and go, what would be the constructive way of dealing with this?

you know because you're i understand i'm i'm someone myself who feel strongly about certain principles and sticking up for them as you know and when you're sticking up for a principle it's always very natural to be like this is the way it is no not one step back in the words of the great hero joseph stalin right um but what's my step back that doesn't cost women and girls i'm not saying that there is i'm saying maybe there is a step up where we just look at a bigger picture, like the third prison suggestion, for example, right? That's a way of recognizing, look, you want to call them men, fine.

They want to call themselves trans women, fine. We have a special place where you go if you've committed a crime. Do you know what I mean? And that's a way of not affecting your rights. It's also a way of not affecting their rights, and everybody is unhappy. Yeah. That isn't what any of these people are looking for.

I mean, you know, maybe not the campaigners and the activists. and the advocates, like the individual, the individual rapist that goes to a prison. Maybe he's looking for a third space. But, I mean, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about, especially prisons. We're talking about people in a small environment caged in.

In America, we had a woman in Hollywood. She called from an L.A. prison, from the inside, and talked about what it was like. and these men are in their cells with them. And American prisons are pretty tough anyway. You have to do, as a woman, if you have to go to court a lot or in you're in isolation or whatever, you basically have to do cavity.

They have to do cavity searches where there's like 50 women at a time and you have to pull yourself apart and you have to cough and all this stuff. So it's put a man into that. I mean, it's degrading, humiliating, vile. And then on top of that, you've got a man who will then rape you as an inmate. And this particular girl thought because she'd annoyed one of the staff, that's why she got a man in her cell. That's awful, obviously.

So third spaces, yeah, if people want to campaign for it and there's money, go for your life. Just not women's spaces. That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. So, look, one of the things we talked about before, you're giving me the smile. But we always have this debate, and I think people should, particularly people who like and respect each other, because otherwise it's all kind of, you know, there's the turfs and then there's the TRAs, and they're all talking just to themselves and there's no genuine discussion, right? I think it's important to have this discussion. One of the things that

when we went to America one of the things we came away with was the sense that on some issues the United States is doing a lot better than we are and I think free speech is genuinely one of them like in comedy for example

the situation is not as bad over there as it is over here in our in our experience people you know we went to Rogan's Club in Austin like the jokes they were making there you wouldn't be able to do that in the UK right so that's fine but on

But on this issue, I think they're way behind the UK. I mean, we're known as Turf Island here, right? Have you found that? Is that your impression? It's so bad. It's so bad. They will literally slice the breasts of a 13-year-old girl. They will do it.

They will do it in Oregon without parents' consent at the age of 15. There are girls at 18 who've had hysterectomies. It's horrifying. There's nullification surgery. Sorry, clarify, what is that posing? What nullification surgery? That means from here to... For the listeners, from the chin down.

From the chin down, you get rid of your nipples, you get rid of your belly button, you get rid of any external genitalia, male or female, and you just have it smooth except for your pipe work. Like, they literally will dehumanize your torso. But why? It's progress, mate. Relax. Because they can.

I know that's the answer, but I mean why. What's the ideology behind it? What does that signify? That to me isn't a sex change. That's something completely other and... I think it's like an avatar. I think you become an avatar. I think transhumanism is a something that sounded too bonkers a few years ago

and I think it's really real that people are trying to get rid of the human from their bodies. Is that a kind of non-binary thing where you just say, well, I'm neither male nor female, I am this separate category, so therefore I am going to remove everything. Is that what it is? I suspect it is.

I mean, non-binary surgeries, especially, well, for girls, all the time, they have their breasts removed. I mean, there's such a war on breasts. And they'll just have one scar, like no nipples, just one big, fat scar from one side to the other. It's just when you mix godlike surgeons with obscene amounts of money and a population that, let's face it, it's gone through the opioid crisis. It's not a population that is particularly...

Averse to medical treatment. Thanks so much. I couldn't think of the word of us. But they love it. They put their kids in counselling like at age 10. They are infantile when it comes to parenting. They're losing so many of their parent rights. I went to a rally of a woman that went viral for speaking at a parent's rights. Speaking about parents' rights in a school board.

And you had some, I did stand in front of all these American flags. I looked like I was about to announce my presidency. but I went and talked to her she was great, very religious but you had her and then over there you had teachers just talking about their right to have more money which I know is important

teaching is great but it was just very interesting they're talking about safeguarding their kids and how they want schools to teach their children properly and the teachers just going we're just like some more money it was interesting

but yeah the there is something about the American completely, especially the Democrat, who doesn't seem to be very grown up. You know, they don't even have good holiday for their, when they work. It's a very interesting kind of powerless situation

where people feel this weird sense of power with guns and free speech and so on. But for me, it felt a lot less, powerful as an individual than it does here. Kelly, do you think in many ways it's kind of the dark side of the American dream? I mean, if you can be anything that you want to be, I mean, that is the American dream,

you go to America, you live in America, you have this chance, you have the dream. Then surely... Maybe it is. Maybe it says you can be anything, including, like, something catastrophic. Like, maybe that is the freedom that they've asked for, but the trouble is when,

when it's just the money and it's just kids in medicine. Like, I don't even agree that surgeons should be, it should be ethically acceptable for surgeons to make women's breasts, like skin stretchingly massive. Or that you can make someone's ass, like, so they can't fit in trousers. I think those things are quite unethical, but it's kids.

It's like, and it's so many kids in hospitals. up and down the country. They are slicing the breasts off of these girls. And it's just butchery and barbarism and insanity. The thing that always baffles me about this is it goes against every parental instinct. Literally, the primary parental instinct that everybody has is protect the kids.

I'm going to protect my kids from physical danger. So the fact that they then put them into this system where they become medicalised at such a young age, they get operated upon, non-necessary operations, very serious plastic surgery. You go, this doesn't make sense. It's a kind of lunacy. And these people will have organic food in their cupboard, right?

And then they'll rush down to do the fifth COVID vaccine, or they'll put them on puberty blockers. Nothing wrong with COVID vaccines, YouTube, just make that clear. Sorry, carry on. But I think it almost has to be on purpose, this kind of cognitive dissonance. Just, I don't know, there's, I don't know how to express it, but there is a feel of, I guess it's the coddling of the American mind, right?

There is a, there is a feel of that in many places. And the people that don't feel like that are called stupid and xenophobic, racist, ignorant Americans. And everybody else is a little bit on board. So I've got a cameraman who didn't really know much about it. And he saw Blue's Clues. So Blue's Clues is a kid's cartoon of animals. And it's terrible.

But it's a dog called Blue, I think, and he sort of helps the kids. and there was a cartoon of a Pride Parade for, you know, preschoolers, because that's what we want for our kids, headed up by a drag queen. And on one of the Pride Parade floats was a child beaver. I don't think this is a mistake. With a double mastectomy.

Two scars, four kids. A beaver. A little beaver. So there might be pandas and bears and whatever, all the characters in this cartoon. With a mastectomy. A beaver. Why does a beaver need a mastectomy?

Because they're a trans kid in the pride parade. Transbeaver. I thought it was an interesting choice of character to do that to be honest. But yeah, this trans beaver nice sort of showed him, it's like, what? What? And then about two minutes later, he goes, checked on snopes, it's real. I was like, I just showed you. I just showed you.

Of course it's real. Like it's, yeah, so they're grooming these kids into this. I don't even know who ultimately benefits or whether it's, like Jennifer Beleck has written a very well-researched article about where the money's coming from and who makes it. Well, there's money in doing the surgeries and giving the drugs and everything. And then there's ideology. And then there'll also be parents who, you know, Francis talks about how well this goes against every instinct.

but I think the hammer they clobber them with, well, if you don't do this, your kid's going to commit suicide, I think. And that's how they get you. And actually, even if you know that isn't true, your friends might not talk to you anymore. Yeah. The school might do it behind your back and change your kids' pronouns. The counsellors, doctors, everywhere you look for help,

they basically tell you you're wrong. And so, and you can even get your kids taken away. way. And are you pleased, therefore, with the progress, relatively speaking, that we're making in the UK, you know, the changes to the Gender Recognition Act, the shutting down of the Tavistock and the fact that people are suing them for malpractice and so on? We've had a few wins in the UK on this issue. Yeah, I'm happy to say that I've had a little bit to do with some of them. The Tavostock, we put some people in the House of Lords who then started working with other people. that's about as much as I can say. So, yeah, there's some significant momentum, but that's because we didn't let it go that far to begin with. And that's because you had women on all different sides of the political aisle who are willing to speak up.

Obviously, the women on the left aren't willing to work with anyone else, but they are still willing to speak. So... Kelly, on that point, actually, since I am playing bad cop again... Go on. I mean, one of the things that happened during your US trip is quite a lot of left-wing women, who would agree with you, I think, on some of the underlying issues, were critical of you for, they were suggesting that you were associating with the wrong people,

and they didn't even mean us, people worse than us. So there was some suggestion that there were proud boys at your events and all of this. What say you to that? Well, I was relatively proud myself. It was great. Proud girl. Yeah. I think there was an ex-prideboy at one or two of the events,

but it's a free speech event. Anyone is invited. The trouble is that what they want is they basically want me to take the knee. They want me to disavow people. They want me to comment on what women say. And I'm just not doing it. I'm not going to disavire them. It's none of my business.

They're not anything to do with me. I'm not associated with them. It's a free speech event. I'm not going to stay. start playing the disavow, disassociate nonsense game, because then what happens is, what if I don't disavow someone, then I'm immediately assumed to have a proper association.

So I'm just not going to do it. They can basically whistle for it, which they have been for about four years. The most merciless, relentless, vile, consistent attacks have been from women on the left. It's just, I just feel like going, just get a hobby, loved. Like, just, if you want to make me irrelevant

and you want to make people stop listening to me, do something better. I dare you. Because then I become nothing. But they know, I think they know that can't be done. And that makes me probably sound as arrogant as they loathe me for because I've worked very hard to make sure that what I offer with my event, is a genuine space for any woman to speak,

and men, but mostly women. And I don't think that there's anything more powerful than people just being able to scream into the ether about the, like, insane amount of silence they've had to endure because they can't speak. And what do you mean but that they can't speak? Where can't they speak? At their jobs?

Sometimes in their own homes. I met women in America who said, how do your kids get on with her? I can't talk about this in front of my daughter. Like, I'm really worried. She knows I'm here. I said, how old are she? She's like 14.

I was like, you're scared of your 14-year-old daughter? I met loads of women like that. It's not unusual. And in this country. I mean, teenagers can't be vicious. But isn't that part of the problem, what you've just said right there? Is that people are in.

intimidated by their children. Yes. And that is a real part of the problem, whereby essentially a child can railroad an adult into making a disastrous decision that is going to negatively impact them both emotionally, psychologically, biologically, for the rest of their life.

100, I couldn't agree with you more. I sort of figure my role as a parent is to raise my children to a place, in adulthood where they can live on their own. And when they're little, you think, I never want them to move out. But when they're teenagers, you think, I love you very much.

You're really building up to be someone who should leave. And you want that for them because life is amazing when it's your life and you make your decisions. So that's my job as their parent. I don't care if they like me. I don't care if they like me at all. I don't need them to think that I'm anything other than someone who will be there when they need it

and will not take any crap. And loves them properly loved, any parent I know would, we die for our kids. So, and everything I do I see through the lens of how I love my children. That's my whole, that's everything that I do. But frightened of them? No. Not in a second.

And the other part of the problem, and I'd be interesting to get your opinion on this, is isn't it also as well? And I used to see it with teachers all the time. They want to be their kids' friends. Yeah. And you're like, they ain't your mate. I know, one of my teachers asked me out for a drink.

I think it was probably something else. Yeah, I was about 17. He was like, why don't you come to the pub? I was like, ooh, no. Yes. Well, yeah, I think teachers, maybe if you're in the profession too long and that's the only thing that you've done, maybe you forget that you're 20 years older or even 10 or the adult in the room.

But also, I mean, parents as well, parents who want to be friends with their kids, they dress up like the exact same way and then they go out together on a night out. And you think, isn't that part of the problem as well, that nobody wants to be the adult in the room? Because being the adult is unpopular because you have to make difficult decisions. Well, and when you say parents, when you say parents, I think you're being very kind, because I think it's mothers. Yeah. That's how I think are more likely want to be mates.

I think dads can be irresponsible children with their children and often want to be fun. But I think it's mothers more than fathers who are going along with this stuff and don't want to be disliked. And I'm telling you, there's pretty much nothing you can do as a mother if you've got a teenager. teenagers to make them like you. I think the more you try, the more it fails. And those kids need those boundaries. We feel safe with boundaries. My daughter, if I say to my daughter,

when you're rude to me, it really doesn't make me feel very nice. She'll go, oh, it's all about you, isn't it? And I'm like, in so many ways, I respect that. So, Kelly, coming back to this idea of disavowar, it's always interesting to me, because I always do feel the... I cringe when people associate themselves

with me or with our brand or what we're doing who I don't like and whose views I think are abhorrent, for example. And I have been quite careful about making that clear to my detriment. It means I've not got relationships with people or I've pissed people off or whatever. And I was... To me, that trade-off is worth it.

Why are you adamant that you don't want to say, well, at least say, well, look, you've said this thing, that's your free speech, but actually, you know, I don't agree with you, and I'd rather you weren't here. Because if somebody stood up on my platform and said something that I didn't agree with, then at that moment I might do it. Okay. If somebody said something who's been on my platform as a free speech thing,

and then they say something else, I don't want to undermine everything they've said. A, I probably don't want to draw attention to it. I don't see how that is valuable for the message that we're trying to get out. But I just, I won't stand against these women who have decided that they are going to speak up because there's so many that don't. And maybe they're perfect women, but they ain't standing up and speaking.

So they're not moving this forward to a point where our children are safe and women are safe in their own spaces. But also, I ain't dancing to anybody's tune. I just won't do it. And the more somebody demands that I do it, I'm just not doing it. I just think, who are you to tell me that I should do this? Oh, she hasn't done this.

If she could just stand up and disavide this person or if I can just take that one comment that that woman made on your live stream and I can flip it up and I can take it out of context and make you look really bad. Will you disavow it? No, I won't.

No, it's not going to happen. It's interesting because that was what a lot of people were demanding from us when we had Sam Harris on. You know, go out and slam him for saying the stuff. I mean, we didn't agree with it, and it was quite clear from the interview. Why do we have to then go out and, you know, go, yeah, yeah, Sam's an idiot? I mean, we did an interview.

Make up your own mind. Do we want people to speak or not? Yeah. And if we do, do we then want to chastise them for everything they've ever said? I mean, I just get it all the time. There are some women that are rabidly obsessed with me. It's, it's quite entertaining. It's a good problem, time. I mean, look, there's plenty of men. But, you know, just really obsessively weird. There was a woman on Mumsnet, and it's been said elsewhere, that I went to an elite boarding school in Hong Kong, played for by my grandparents, where I met my husband,

who was married and stole him from his wife. None of that is true. Just really bonkers stuff said about me. And it's by the same people that start these rumour mills. Like, let's say we did have a pride boy. So what? How do I know what I know about Pride Boys is even true? How do I know anything is true?

According to even the New York Times, I'm a racist, a bigot, David Duke fan. I've married Richard Spencer in another life. You know, just all these things are said about me and I know they're not true. How on earth could I possibly rely on information about other people? I'm just, and I'm not going to fall into that.

And let's say all of those things were true and that pride boy came to that thing and listened to me speak. What harm is that to me? Let's say he's got a daughter who comes home at 13 and... says she's trans. Maybe all the goodness in that exchange comes from me into him and his life is better for it. I'm not changed because he's heard me speak. Kelly, let's look at it broader, societally. What do you think this craze says about us as a society, about the Western world,

the way that we live? Well, I don't want to say it, but maybe we need a war. Maybe we've just got... You're careful what you wish for. Well, maybe we've got too much. Maybe we've... There's a part of me that thinks the collective kind of forward belief of religion and faith and community. Maybe it means the void is filled by something. Maybe we are human...

The fact that there are so many religions and creation stories in every single part of the world tells me that it is a human necessity. to create answers that we don't know the answers to, answers to the questions. So answer questions, yeah. Thanks so much. I'm very tired. Sorry, I feel like I'm over-helping.

No, no, no, it's great. I'll take that help. But maybe that's what we need in order to function, and we've had collective belief before, so there's something in that. Well, those things are disappearing. I mean, I'm wondering if at the end of all of this chaos will come Islam. I'm wondering if that will be a prescriptive religion, that people will be looking for something really tight on boundaries

because we've lost them. So I think that's one thread of it. And the other is luxury, because if you're not worried, you know, a guy doing scaffolding, let's say, he's not worried about, you know, in his moments of, like, climbing up and skispholding. screwing stuff and whatever. He's not worried about how he identified.

And so, I don't know, maybe people feel like they need some sort of civil rights movement to be validated. But like Jordan says, tidy your room. Sort your own life out rather than displacing what you need to sort out with some bigger picture stuff that isn't even a thing. And one thing that some other people have suggested as maybe a third thing to add, and I'd be curious to hear your opinion about it, because I think you're very sound actually on this issue,

is, I mean, even hormonally speaking, society is becoming less masculine over time, right? Men's testosterone's going down. Women are much more vocal and present in public life. Now, obviously, we don't approve of that, but, you know. Sorry. But you know what I mean, right? society's becoming more feminized. And you can think that's a good thing,

or you can think that's a bad thing, or you can be neutral about it, but it is happening. Would you agree? I do worry about men. And I don't spend a lot of time on that, but yes. Yeah. And some of the values that drive some of these social movements,

they are quite obviously stereotypically more feminine than they are masculine, because they're based on things like empathy and compassion and, you know, all of that, taken to an extreme where they become quite damaging, actually. And I just wonder whether, to some extent, the fact that we so prize compassion and empathy to an extreme that's dangerous

is maybe a product of the fact that society is readjusting to a new dynamic between men and women. And, I mean, you said it yourself, it's mothers that often behave in this way, right? Are there just too many women around? Yeah, and are they talking too much and, you know, have they got too much power? I mean, do you see what I'm saying, or am I being? I do.

It's really difficult as a woman knowing how I go about this world and being a specific sort of woman. Amazing, legend. But it's very difficult to then talk about the impact on men. I think a big danger factor. for men is porn. I think that's a big danger thing for society in general. Let me just get that out of the way.

I think it's very difficult to talk about male violence and accept that most men are not going to beat you up in your own home, right? Most men are not going to rape you on a night out if they can. And so these themes that we talk about, it's a minority of men.

I've got three sons. I want my sons to be men. And I've got a very wise person I know is a man called Brian. And he talks about masculinity is your sword in your sheath. It's having all the power, knowing that you can use it but not having to, but it being very, very super aware to everybody

that you've got it. That's the master. that I'm really attracted to. I'll have a door open for me, actually, every day of the week. Yeah. And heavy things carried, because I'm five foot one. I offered to carry a back. It wasn't that heavy, though.

That's why I offered. I was like, oh. It's like, sure. But I do worry. I don't know if I think that this particular theme is all about men being emasculated because I think it's, It's the height of, I don't even like toxic masculinity. I think it's mostly bull.

But I do feel there is an element of real toxic kind of at the peak of masculinity is then the ultimate woman-hating thing you could do is pretend that you are one. Yeah, I'm just, I'm concerned. I'm somebody that doesn't cry very much, right? I'm relatively stoic. Some horrible things have happened to me in my life. life and it doesn't break me at all.

I think I've mentioned this before. If I had a husband that broke under, I wouldn't like that at all. But then I'm not going to break. No. What I'm getting at is it's a difficult one to discuss and it's difficult for you because you're a woman's rights campaigner. That's your focus. I guess what I'm saying is, and again, Jordan Peterson mentioned this is if you think

strong men are dangerous, just wait until you see weak men. Oh, I agree with you. You know what I mean? I just don't know what a strong man. It's a difficult thing to describe what does a strong man look like. I think a strong man takes his responsibilities as a father very seriously. I think a strong man wants to protect the mother of his children as well as his children, right? And then my role is to protect my children and maybe look after my husband.

My role as a wife is to serve him and his role as a husband is to serve me. And that will, of course, make a difference in the way. that we do that because I had babies, my role, my reproductive role is to have the babies. I can't possibly think that something so important wouldn't have an impact on the rest of my personality and life. And I mean even childless women. I think we have instinct, which I like to call it legacy memory, which is we bring the experience of our ancestors not in a kind of like come by our spiritual way, but just I believe that if you can have instinct

that is informed in your genes and you know how to do it, then why wouldn't you carry anything else from previous generations? Why wouldn't it be sort of in your blood and your bones? So I do get you, and I think you're right. I just wonder if some of the things that we had to change for women to be considered equal, because our society is set upon the structure of success and finance. So in order to have autonomy, you have to have money.

But in order to have a baby, you have to rely on somebody, as a woman, you have to rely on somebody to provide that money. And I've got women who are like, I wouldn't rely on my husband. I was like, well, the state then? Is that different? Is the state not the patriarchy if you're saying that your husband is? I mean, I'm all up for relying on my husband for cash. It suits me fine.

But so we had to, we had to get through some of the things that genuinely did subjugate women. Yes. We had to get through it. And we found these particular solutions and they're not perfect by any stretch. And maybe this is the consequences. Yeah. Well, this is what I'm getting at, right? Because the progress, inverted commas that we've made over the last 60 years,

there's been some good things about that. But like, when you start. pulling on the sweater, you don't know which lines are going to come out of it. And it just seems to me that what you're talking about there is considered trance nowadays, which is the idea that a man and woman get together and have children and look after each other in different ways. And, you know, Louise Perra, I don't know if you're familiar with her work. I am.

She wrote a lovely article about me and The Spectator. Yeah. Is that sarcasm? No. No, no, yeah. It was really nice. Yeah. And her book is very good.

And I think her book is basically making this point. It's like the sexual revolution had its benefits, but look at this. Not great, though. I mean, I don't know too many women who have a good time in a short relationship. Quite. Yeah. Quite. But that is now the standard for young women.

Yeah, I mean, they're just, they've been, both men and women. Yes. I've been coerced into thinking that there is fulfillment in numbers. By the way, you know what a lot of women don't understand, I think, is that it's not good for men either. No. It's really not. It's really not. It doesn't make men happy. There's a small minority of men who are happy with it for a while, and then eventually they have kids and settle down with somebody. But for most men, it's not good either.

No, I don't think we think about this. I mean, I just think about the physiological kind of exchange that happens, if you like. And I do feel women are short-chain. That is beautifully put. But society is telling them that actually this is empowering. It's so nuts, so isn't it? It's, yeah, I just, I sort of think maybe I'm just very special. But maybe it's I've got a good strong ego and maybe that's for a multitude of reasons.

But I've always been of the opinion that I get to, to be happy. I get to do things that I want. I don't have to fit in with other people. I can trust my instincts and I really do. I have a very heightened sense of instinctively what is right. Now I'm not saying I get it right every in every single time but if something doesn't feel right to me, I'll just go with it. I'll just trust that I'm that my my instincts know better than my rational brain. And loads of people don't. There's Gavin DeBek, I think it is, who does the gift of fear. He'd be a great guest. A great guest. And he does this gift of fear where he talks about a lot of nasty kind of people who want to harm you. They will rely on your sort of sense

of politeness to justify to yourself why, oh, it's all right if I let him follow me in through the, you know, the shared door at the bottom of the entrance. Oh, I won't ask. Um, So it's, he talks about the gift of fear as something that, you know, you don't see a mouse on a, you don't see a mouse. When a cat comes along, think, oh, well, maybe they're friendly. They just trust their instincts. And I think we've lost that somewhat. Sort of ties into your, well, the entire thing of your work, really, which is you're like, do this. You know, we could be polite, but actually, we need to protect this.

Is that where you're coming from on it? Yeah, pretty much. I think I talk about this on my channel Most women you will meet Have had an episode An experience in which they're in a toilet Or a changing room Female only

And then they hear a man's voice And it happened to me when I'd flown back From the States a couple of years ago And a guy came in It wasn't speaking in English He went in the toilet next to me He was really loud I don't know whether he was talking on the phone

or whatever but I instinctively just did this. And I didn't... And then I'm waiting. And it's quite a long time. And I'm just waiting. And then when I do stop breathing, I'm like... Just trying to breathe quite...

Until that door shuts and he's gone and I can hear his footsteps walking away. You can't... You can't pretend. Nobody can tell me that that changes if that male voice is accompanied with stilettos. It's just not true. probably makes it worse in some ways.

What do you think? We don't try to focus on personalities on the show generally, but we have somebody running to be an MP in this country, Eddie Azard, who I think said that we just all, I can't remember the exact words, but it was something along the lines of, it's the 21st century,

what was it exactly, does anyone remember? No, I can't remember what Eddie said. It was something along the lines of, we just all need to get, Not get with the program, but it was language of that type. Do we need to get with the program? No, I think Eddie needs to stop copy in my look. I'm going to run against him.

So if he runs, I'm going to run as an independent against him. And maybe I'll have prosthetic limbs. Do we need to get with the program? No, I think Eddie Yuzzard is definitely is an AGP. He's talked about it. I used to feel quite sorry for him because he, He does talk about this, so I mean, you might have to fact check it, but he was in a documentary where he talked about his mother dying

when he was quite young, and he looks for her everywhere. And I do believe that is the instigation and the start of this particular fetish. But no, it's so offensive wearing fake breasts and then calling yourself a woman. It's so offensive. I mean, it's years ago that would just be like a comedy sketch, right? A man wearing fake breasts and now he's running for Parliament and bloody Russell Crow is tweeting about it,

or you make a great MP. Yeah, come on then. Let's have that. Let Eddie bring the conversation because the beautiful thing about so many of these narcissistic men is that they have no idea that when they speak, they reveal everything that I can't possibly take. tell people. But if I just show them Eddie is our talking and wearing fake breasts, that tells

people mostly all they need to know. I'd be interested to see that debate. I mean, it would make for great content. We'll happily have you both on to talk about it. If you both stand, and we would be fair to both of you. Yeah, exactly. She's still open for Eddie on talk. Yeah. Oh, he was so funny. Brilliant. I was so gutted. One of the greatest comedians this country has ever produced, undeniably. When he talked about himself being a male lesbian and no, they're not a woman's clothes, they're my clothes.

And all that stuff. And like, come on. It's on tape, man. He used to call himself an all-action transvestite. I know. I could, I used to, like, I could repeat his stand-up because I absolutely loved him. And I just think, it's like the Douglas Murray analogy

that he got, the train got in the state. and he just crashed all the way through. Just ruined it. You're like, no, just back there, but not to talk about him personally because I wouldn't want to be unfair, but often what happens with these men is the AGP element of their fetish

just gets overwhelming in the end. And where they could sort of keep a check on it, it does become a huge compulsion. Well, if you both stand, we would love to have you both on for a genuine discussion, not a bitch fest or anything, but an actual conversation between two people

who clearly feel very differently about it. I wonder if he would, actually, because out of all the people, I wonder if, because he's intelligent, erudite, I'm sure he could construct. He doesn't shirk a challenge. No. Yeah.

He really doesn't. So, Eddie, if you're watching, fair debate, the opportunity is there. You can come and talk about it. Kelly Jakin, absolute pleasure to have you back. Before we go to our last question, actually, I suppose the question for me is, what is the end goal of your work?

What does it look like? Is it a set of laws? Is it a public policies? What do you want? I want no more children to transition. In fact, I would like for there to be prevention on anyone being able to transition without at least three years of intense therapy post-18, so they couldn't transition until they were at least 21,

preferably 28, because that's when your brain is fully developed. I want the GRA to be totally scrapped. I don't want any such thing as a man calling herself a woman-in-law or vice versa. I would... I've got quite a list. She came prepared, mate. I would like no more female language used for men at all. Like, if you want to do that in your private conversations, that's fine.

but no government, no school, no government, no NHS, no nothing, no official place in which we erase women's language or replace men's language with women's. Aside from that, I don't know, a knighthood. But yeah, it's just, I want us to return to truth, and not my truth or your truth, just the truth. That's what I'm interested in. Yeah. Lady Posey of Turfdom. And we always finish our interviews with the same question,

which is what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be as a society? And we'll do some locals questions in a second as well. Sorry, Kelly. Well, I think I said paedophilia last time. I think that still needs to be talked about, but I will introduce the concept of parental rights and parents understanding what their rights are

and responsibilities, which are first and foremost to their children and not to be sidetracked by what experts or the state tells you is good for your kids. It's a very good point. We're going to do a few of your questions for locals that you've asked on there that only you will get to see. So join us there, but for now, Kelly J Keen,

thank you so much for joining us. And we'll see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or a show. All of them go out at 7pm UK time. And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast. Take care. see you soon, guys. I'm a teacher, teenager. She teaches teenagers, and have some trans as

inverted commas. How would you address these girls who are minors if you were in my position?