TRIGGERnometry - S5: Exposing the Race Industry - Dr Rakib Ehsan

Episode Date: August 29, 2021

Dr Rakib Ehsan is an independent researcher/writer on issues of race, culture, and identity and the author of forthcoming book Manufactured Grievance (June 2022). Get TICKETS to TRIGGERnometry Live with Andrew Doyle here: https://leicestersquaretheatre.ticketsolve.com/shows/873619472 Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/​​​  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod​​​ Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Going back to this idea of multiculturalism, I think there's that, it's almost like politicians, they have a greater emphasis on what's different about us, and they celebrate that. But they don't understand the complications that come with diversity. Because ultimately, if there's a great deal of cultural diversity, but you have that lack of, that's sort of that unifying set of values, then you can, you almost have a balconisation process. And I think that's quite problematic, because if there's a lack of, of social trust in a diverse society such as ours, you almost lose public support for ambitious, collectivist sort of endeavours, such as the all-encompassing welfare state.

Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a political writer and the author of an upcoming book called Manufactured Grievance, which we're both really looking forward to reading, Dr. Habesan, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to have you on. I've been meaning to have you on for a while.

For anyone who doesn't know who you are, and we've been reading all your stuff, and it's absolutely fascinating. Tell everybody who are you, how are you where you are? What is it that brings you to be sitting here talking to us? So, as you say, I'm a political writer. I'm the author of the upcoming book, Manufactured Grievance. In terms of my life, I was born in Hammersmith, but I moved to Luton at the age of one.

So I've lived there for the past three decades. and I'm particularly interested in social cohesion, how to strengthen relations between the state and citizens, and just generally, how do we create a more cohesive country and how do we enhance democratic stability in Britain? And you've written a lot about race relations and the commentary that we've now seen about race, and there seems to be this interesting dynamic that's happened,

certainly in my lifetime in this country, which is kind of similar to your 20, 25 years, whatever, 30 years, where like the society seems to be making progress on the issues of race and yet the conversation seems to be the opposite, like things are getting worse all the time. What have you made of the last kind of period of time during which we've seen that happen? Well, I think in terms of Britain,

almost feel that there's been an importation of US racial politics. And I think you see things like a BLM demonstration in London where people are chanting, don't shoot British police officers, even though the vast majority are unarmed, and they support that model of policing. And I do think there has been that brainless importation of racial grievance politics in the United States, and that's being imported by the British Identitarian Left.

I think in recent times we have seen an explosion of racial grievance politics. I talk about the industrial complex, the grievance industrial complex, where you have a sector-wide orchestrated effort to present Britain in a way that, I simply don't recognize. And you say you simply don't recognize it.

And you grew up in Luton, which was, you know, from what I've read, seems to be a hotbed of racial tension at certain points in the 90s. Well, I think Luton's at his fair share of problems. I think it's the birthplace of the English defense. Yeah, so Tommy Robinson, for our American viewers, that's where all that stuff is happening. And it's also had its fair share of issues with Islamist extremism, tensions not just between the white population and the non-white population, but also tensions between different ethnic minorities, something that's not really discussed too much when we talk about

race relations in Britain. But also with Luton, you have that tolerant majority, people who are ultimately more interested in, who you are as a person, what your attitudes are, what you bring to the table as a character. And I think that's generally the argument to make about England. I think you do have these hard left identitarians. who really see the worst in England. Then you have hard-right ethno-nationalists who ultimately frame English identity in terms of race and ancestry.

But in reality, you have the mainstream. When they're asked about Englishness, what Englishness means to them, they ultimately frame it in more civic terms. It's about your social contribution, how do you contribute towards the wellbeing of your local community, things such as paying taxes

towards the funding of public services and national security. So you can see that there is definitely a potential for a civic Englishness. And I think these grossly simplistic caricatures of England are very unfair. And you say they're very unfair.

And it was very interesting in 2020 when we saw that explosion of race-based politics, the discussion, the anger, the recriminations. Do you think that's gone away? Or do you think it's still bubbling under the surface? I think it's definitely there.

I think it's still there. I think the issue is that for too long, I think when we're looking at England in particular. People have just thought that, or you know, English, we don't really want to touch it as a concept, perhaps because they felt there's this cultural appropriation of the St. George's flag, for example, by far-right organisations such as the English Defence League. But, you know, the reality of the matter is, if you don't talk about those kind of things, there's a vacuum, and radical ideologues will exploit that. I think in terms of when we're looking more recently,

when you look at the Labour Party, more broadly the contemporary British left, I think that there's been a tendency to portray Britain in a way that even people who'd considered themselves to be anti-racist, it's alienating. I don't think they see Britain more generally as a kind of society where it's full to the brim with reactionary throwbacks, people who are deeply uncomfortable with demographic diversity. They might be uncomfortable with cultural diversity, which is obviously very different to demographic diversity. And they may feel that there's certain practices in Britain, which are very much against liberal democratic values. I don't think that's controversial at all. Can you delve into that a little bit more? The cultural diversity versus demographic

diversity and what you're talking about, what you're hinting out there, because it's good. I think there's an interesting piece in there, but you're being a little bit vague about it, so give us some more specifics. No, I'll definitely, I'll flesh it out in more detail. So I think in terms of demographic diversity, when we're looking at the degree to which Britain is religiously diverse, racially diverse and ethnically diverse. That's very different to cultural diversity. Now, if you see that when we look at Brexit, for example, what the strongest predict is for someone voting to leave the European Union was if they had a negative view of cultural diversity. And that doesn't mean that they're fed up with all the brown and black faces in the United Kingdom. It might be the fact that

they feel that there's a lack of discussion on shared values. They may feel that there's cultural practices which are not in keeping with what they consider to be traditional, British, liberal, democratic principles. They may feel that principles such as democratic choice, the rule of law, these kind of things are being eroded as a result of certain cultural practices. So you can see that there's a big difference between being uncomfortable with demographic diversity, which I think the majority of British people are on, but they may have reservations over the degree to which we celebrate difference and how little we discuss things such as shared voting. values, articulating an inclusive patriotism, or just more generally generating a feeling or a sense

of common purpose. That's a really interesting point, isn't it? Because I do feel that that's been happening. I don't know if it's happening in wider society, particularly if you go outside of the big cities. I do think there's a very strong sense of social cohesion. But if you were to watch, let's say the BBC or other mainstream media, the hyper-focus on the things that we're all different in,

seems to be extreme. It seems to be that that is the only thing anyone's talking about. And almost there was a period of time, particularly I think around Brexit, when the idea of British values, which is what you're really talking about, it's almost like if you talk to someone, you say, well, what are British values?

They'd run away as if you're trying to recruit them for the EDL. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. No, I think so. And I think that we need to have these kind of discussions because I think we're the ethnically, racially and religiously diverse society, you need to have that common moral cultural standard

to tie those different groups together. And I think that in recent times, I think there's been an absence of moral political leadership on those kind of issues. But do you sometimes think, looking back at that outbursts in 2020, that, okay, what the protesters didn't have, they weren't right about the issue.

But that anger has to have come from somewhere. it couldn't have just come from nothing. If that protest hadn't struck a chord in some way, would it have existed? Do you see what I'm getting at here? There must be something else that people feel angry or frustrated about. Yeah, I mean, I think that in certain ethnic minorities, there is a high level of political disaffection. I think that's particularly the case with British-born people of Caribbean origin.

I think, for example, the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence and then the spying of his family, by the London Metropolitan Police that undercover spying, that kind of thing, it leaves, it costs a long shadow. And I think we have to really look at how, for example, we can improve relations between disaffected communities and local police forces. What are the kind of things that can be done to boost public support for robust policing practices

such as stop and search? I think more generally, I always thought that the traditional English promise of equality of opportunity I think there's more to be done. I think that there's plenty more that can be done in terms of creating a more meritocratic society, a society where opportunities and rewards are allocated on the basis of merit.

So I think there's definitely discussions to be had. And what are some of the challenges in the era? Because I would imagine one of them that I have read about and I do believe as an issue is, for example, your name is Rakeeb-San. If your name was John Smith, you'd probably have an easier time applying for jobs by sending in a CV.

we have seen evidence. Is that the sort of thing you're talking about? Yeah, but I think also if you're someone of, if you're black Caribbean origin and your name is John Powell, I think you may be at an advantage if you're, as opposed to your name was Constantine Kissin. Yeah. So it's not quite as simple as being a racial penalty as such. You can say it's more a cultural penalty because Constantine Kissin is more culturally distant. You can say to a traditionally English sounding name. He keeps telling me that. Yeah. And I'm right. So I think those kind of discussions where you talk about maybe introducing more name-blind applications, at least that may be more, that might be more of an equalizer in terms of the

equalization of opportunity. And I think that's quite important. It's not so much about an equality of outcomes. It's more about trying to create a more fairer process, especially in the realm of employment, which as you know, ultimately, you know, employment is the, it's almost the core of one's life. Essentially, it gives you a sense of structure, sense of pride, also helps to put food on the table as well and pay the bills. So I think those kind of discussions are really important. I don't think, I think we should guard against complacency. While I say that, you know, overall we're a tolerant anti-discrimination, pro-equality country, that's not to say that we can improve on those fronts. But what I don't agree with is ultimately a vilification of British society

and its public institutions. And I do think the more aggressive elements of the BLM movement, they have been responsible for doing that. And that in turn undermines the broader anti-racial racism cause because it alienates people who do care about racial equality, but they don't share that warped interpretation of British society and institutions in both the public and private sector. And why do you think these people have been given a platform? Like, you see the same faces rolled out again and again and again. Some of your favourites.

Yeah, absolutely. But why is it we consistently give these people a platform if, as you say, their view of British society is walked? Well, I think in certain public institutions, mainstream public broadcasters such as the BBC, I do sense there's a great deal of white guilt in those institutions, if I'm being perfectly honest. And as you've said, you see these same voices and they recycle their identitarian nonsense, which is deeply divisive. And I think all too often ethnic minority voices, I think that there's improvements being made on that front.

But ethnic minority voices who might provide a more optimistic, positive vision of Britain and rather providing a positive interpretation of race relations, how we're doing when it comes to matters of racial equality. I think for a while they were being sidelined, if I'm being perfectly honest. But obviously you have GB News, you have people there such as Mercy, Morocco, Inayah Fulorina Mann, who at least provide a more balanced perspective, and I think that's really important. because you don't want

identitarian leftists seizing the narrative when it comes to race-related issues in Britain. And your book is called Manufactured Grievance. I want to talk about the grievance industry a little bit because...

You're wondering how to get into it? Absolutely, man. It's very profitable. Yeah, too is kind of struggling in that for some reason. But anyway, I'm just curious. A lot of people may not be familiar with this idea or they might find it

inherently difficult to accept. But it seems quite obvious to me at this point and tell me if you agree with this, that there are a lot of people, and I don't even blame them, because human beings respond to incentives, right? If you can get a good job with a great salary and social status

and newspaper inches and whatever, by having a particular mindset, you will attract people to doing that. Absolutely, yeah. And so it does seem to me like there are a lot of people who just don't want things to get better. No, but in the short, no, they don't. And I think that when I talk about the grievance industrial complex, I'll give you an example, the Runnymede Trust.

Back in 2000, they set up a 23 strong commission to look at the issue, racial equality issues in Britain. And it concluded that Britain had some of the best race relations in Europe. It said that it had a much more relaxed society than other multi-ethnic democracy such as France, Germany and the United States. And they said that the idea that racism was widespread in Britain was a skewed and partisan view. Now, the Runnymede Trust now this year published a report which said that England suffers from systemic racism that ultimately limits the enjoyment of BAME rights and acronym that I think is absolutely hopeless, by the way, maybe we can discuss that later on. Ultimately portraying England as some kind of systemically racist hellhole.

So you can see that the same institution from the year 2000 to now is essentially saying that, our country has descended from being an internationally reputable model for race relations to systematically racist hellhole. Now, that's a scorching hot take that I don't think many people would share at all. And I do feel that institutions perhaps because they see that there's an opportunity for financial profit combined with this moral grandstanding. So ultimately, it's impressing people in their particular sector, in their social circles. And you also have that financial incentive to present what I would consider to be a fundamentally

warped interpretation of race relations in the UK and how well we're doing in terms of racial equality. But crucially, when it comes to complex forms of social and economic disadvantage, all too often they'll put racial identity at the heart of it when I think there's other very important factors at place, such as internal cultural norms, in particular communities, attitudes towards female empowerment, also, even things such as where you live. I think geographical inequality, we live in one of the most interregionally imbalanced economies in the world. I think family breakdown is something that

many people simply don't want to touch with a barge pole. I think the great advantage you could have in modern day Britain is if you are raised by two loving, attentive parents. But then people portray that's some kind of vilification of single parents, not at all. But I don't think we should shy away from the fact that there's particular family structures which are more strongly

associated with positive youth outcomes whether it's school attainment, cognitive development, mental well-being, being less likely to be involved in the criminal justice system. I think those are the discussions we need to be having when it comes to matters of inequality in Britain. Why don't we have those discussions? Well, I think a lot of people, they just like being politically sensitive. I think as opposed to grappling with the main issues, they want to be liked. I think that's what it is.

And I don't really care for being overly popular or being well-liked. Because I think if you want to be a serious actor that wants to tackle the root causes of inequality, then you're going to have to face up to some uncomfortable truths. Now, for me, Britain, I think there's many wonderful things about Britain. Britain is also an international hotspot when it comes to family breakdown. And as I've discussed, I think family structure can be hugely influential when it comes to youth development and future life progression. And I think that needs to be better reflected in British social policy. Because I think all too often we're guided more by what's fashion.

as opposed to the facts. And I think that's hugely problematic in the social policy space. Hey, Constantin, how are you feeling? Good. And your mental health? I'm from Russia. We don't have mental health. Well, in the civilized world, we talk about our mental health and how we're feeling about our place in the universe.

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Do you think there's another thing here, which is we've bought into some kind of, to me, and I consider myself liberal, but we've bought into a form of liberalism that almost says nothing is right, nothing is wrong, nothing is good, nothing is bad. It's just, hey, man, just do whatever you want. And so if you are in a single parent environment, nobody should ever say anything about what that can lead to on average. You're not talking about individual people. You're saying, on average, a kid with two parents does better on average

than a kid with one parent, right? There's not criticism of single parents, but it's just saying this is the reality. Yeah, what works best essentially. What works best, right, just in terms of practical outcomes. But to say that is to judge. and we don't want to judge anything anymore. Well, for me, it's not making some kind of emotional judgment. I'm looking at what the evidence is telling me.

Right. And I think that's something where the left, unfortunately, it's guided more by emotions and political correctness, as opposed to actually acknowledging what the facts, what the reality is on the ground. Now, when we talk about disparities, for example, one of the things that isn't talked about very much at all is the huge differences between different ethnic groups. When it comes to the kind of family structure that young people are raised in. So when it comes to people aged up to 15 years, whether or not they live in a lone parent household, so the figure for dependence of

Indian origin is only 6%. That rises to 63% for children of Black Caribbean origin. And I think that kind of difference is bound to have an impact on the kind of live trajectory for young people in those particular ethnic groups. Now, BLM, of course, there's many discussion to be had in terms of racial discrimination, ethnic penalties in the labour market, how we can create a healthcare system, which is more responsive to the needs of a diverse population. But one of the biggest problems facing many Black British communities is the lack of responsible male role models in those communities. And I think when it comes to issues of fatherlessness, that's something that, for example, Dr. Tony Sewell, who is the lead author of the recent Cred report.

And interestingly, David Lammy used to talk about this a great deal. You know, in my early years of adulthood, he was my favourite politician. He was what he did. He managed to blend this strong commitment to social justice with almost like an honest, family-oriented traditionalism. And I feel that perhaps because he had some personal disappointments, such as finishing fourth in the Labour candidacy for the mayoral election in 2016, which Sadiq Khan, obviously, one. He finished fourth. He finished behind Diane Abbott. So that would be a bit of pill to swallow, especially for a man of his intellect.

But it's a real shame that he turned his back on that politics, perhaps because he realized within the Labour Party that sort of tribal racial identity politics, radical, social, liberalism was very much on the y' up. So perhaps that led to a disintegration or rather his abandonment of his own humanitarian politics. And I think that's a real shame. It is a real shame because, like you said, he is a very, very intelligent man. and he could be a powerful force within the Labour Party. There's an article of yours that I found very, very interesting,

talking about Muslims in the UK and how actually the UK is probably the best place in the EU to live for Muslims. Could you go into a little bit about that? Well, I think it was interesting that you had the European Court of Justice. They recently ruled that European Muslim women who wore hijab in the workplace, if their employers think that that is leading to well,

workplace, conflicts or that's affecting kind of, you know, relations with clients and customers that they could be fired. Now, that's something that would never happen in the United Kingdom. And you saw that after Brexit, you had these kind of intolerant Britain versus tolerant Europe narratives from a band of deranged EU enthusiasts. That's the way I'd describe them. When in reality, Britain, when it comes, for example, the provision of anti-discrimination protections on the grounds of race, religion, ethnicity. Britain comfortably outperforms countries such as France. France has this sort of almost rigid secular universalism.

The idea that they'd even collect data broken down by race and ethnicity completely goes against that kind of political culture that they have in place. That's obviously problematic because you can't identify issues of racial discrimination in various spheres. In Britain, we have a strong commitment to collecting that kind of data and then at least discussing, you know, how we go about approaching those kind of issues. Other countries such as Germany and Netherlands, I wouldn't say their provision of those anti-discrimination protections are as robust as in the case of the UK.

And I think that when it comes to British Muslims in particular, I feel that they're poorly represented by identitarian organisations who, quite frankly, they tap into that religious grievance politics, I would say. So three and four British Muslims feel that Britain is a good place to live as a Muslim. and the main reason they provide for that is freedom of religion. What's interesting is that it's the mainstream who are less likely to think that Britain is a good place to live as a Muslim. I don't know whether there's some kind of white saviour complex at play there, very possible.

But I do feel that personally as a British Muslim myself, I do think that Britain is a very good place to live as, you know, in terms of practicing your religion, it's also worth noting that many Muslim people who live in Britain, and they originate from countries which are deeply unstable in a social sense. There's rampant institutional corruption. There's a great deal of community tensions, but also between different Muslim denominations,

Islamic denominations. So when you compare that context, that kind of social disturbance and those political problems there, naturally they have a positive feeling towards British democracy. But also often these kind of things are not. discussed about at all when we talk about the place of British Muslims in their own country. Well, Rakeep, speaking of that, and it'd be interesting to talk about this, you being a practice in Muslim, because one of the things that people sometimes, and admittedly, these are people

who are on the sort of hard right, but this is one of the things that they often talk about, that British Muslims struggle to integrate, and they'll point of things like the polls which show British attitudes, Muslim attitudes to homosexuality, to women's liberation, and all this this sort of stuff. Where do you sit on all of that? Like, how well is the Muslim community, if one exists, integrating and has integrated into British society? Well, I think that that's the thing there, that all too often is presented a British Muslim community, but it's so incredibly diverse in terms of social values, political affiliation, more generally when it comes to issues of female empowerment, and just generally, what is the place of British Muslims in their own

country, that there is a great deal of diversity. Also, just things with, ethnicity and different religious denominations as well. I think that there's definitely discussion to be had in terms of, you know, what is the place of British Muslim women, for example, because I do feel that, for example, when you look at levels of child poverty in certain Muslim majority communities, I think female empowerment needs to be discussed. Because I think that when you see various cases across the world, that is the most effective root out of poverty for certain groups and societies empowering women. And I think those discussions need to be had in Britain. I think in terms of how British Muslims are caricatured, I think that

on the hard left, you have, you know, these people are deeply oppressed, they're really struggling in an aggressively anti-Muslim country, which has no respect for them, you know, the mainstream doesn't like them whatsoever. And then you have the hard right ethno-nationalists who, you know, portray British Muslims of some kind of, you know, almost like a fifth columnist block of disloyal people who live in Britain. But in reality, they both can be further from the truth. As I said, the vast majority of British Muslims, they're satisfied with British democracy. They think that Britain is a good place to live as a Muslim, generally relatively high levels of trust in public institutions, such as the NHS. And they also show high levels of British identification,

which many people are quite surprised about, especially British Pakistanis and British Bangladeshis. They do show high levels of British identification. So you can see there that all too often you do have radical ideologues who dominate the conversation when they're not, you know, the arguments that they provide, they're not rooted in reality at all. And it's interesting you say that because you made the point that Muslim people aren't a monolith.

And of course it's so true. Like I've got friends who are Muslim and one of them is Indonesian. Now, obviously, an Indonesian Muslim is going to be very, very different to a Bangladeshi Muslim because their countries are completely different. Their societies are different. Do we need to start realizing that, you know, when we talk about things like Asian people, black people, these terms are really reductive and pointless,

and they don't actually describe people accurately? Well, I think you'd even get differences between the average Muslim from Dhaka, which is the capital of Bangladesh and Siliq, which is, you know, Daka is a bit more modernized, a bit more developed, a bit more socially liberal, you could say, while SILA is more socially conservative, a bit poorer, more deprived, more agricultural. So you can even see within one Muslim country, you can see the regional differences there. So I think we really need to have a discussion about, you know, to what extent are people homogenising very different groups? So after the Kred report came out, the Searle report, I think even labels such as black and Asian,

They're bringing together vastly different groups. There's huge differences in kind of socio-economic integration, political behavior between British Indians and British Pakistanis. But they'd both be brought into an Asian category. There's also very serious differences between people of Black Caribbean origin and people of Black African origin. You can see that even in terms of pupil performance in English schools, perception of race relations, to what extent do they?

attach importance to their faith, their general perception of British society and public institutions. So I think even those kind of labels, those sort of overarching racial categories, they're not particularly useful from a social policy perspective at all. Ricky, one of the things I was wondering about in terms of having these conversations and why sometimes we as a society seem reluctant to do is there was a moment, and I think that moment is in the past now, but there was a moment where multiculturalism was the thing, right? That was the word. And everybody had to get buy into this idea.

What do you make of multiculturalism and the attempt to kind of mainstream that as a thing? You're smiling already. I think the state-sponsored multiculturalism is a disastrous model for political and social integration. I think that... Explain that for people who may not like, because some people don't even understand the difference

between a multi-ethnic society and a multicultural society. So give us the definition. and then tell us why you think a multi-ethnic society can have a strong inclusive patriotism, which ultimately focuses more on shared values. Or rather you have a, you almost say you can have a socio-political effort to cultivate, you know, a sense of common purpose. It's essentially trying to bring together different groups in society almost around this common moral cultural standard. Under one umbrella identity. So I'm from Russia, Francis's mixed background, you are,

wherever you are, you're practicing Muslim, but we're all British. Yeah. Right. We all buy into that British identity. That's a multi-ethnic society. Yeah. And I think there just needs to be, at least you have discussions about what is that, what is at the core of that civic identity. So I'll talk about things like social contribution, ultimately treating people fairly irrespective of their ethnic, racial, religious background, and also having a discussion about what kind of cultural practices that shouldn't have any place in British society. And I think that those kind of discussions still need to have. What you can do? You keep saying this thing, but you never spell it out. Well, I think even things like if I had to talk about FGM, female genital mutilation, I think that's

that the inaction on those kind of issues for so long was, it was embarrassing, to be honest. I think that's a national scandal in itself. So I think those kind of things that for far too long, we've had political leaders, they want to avoid those kind of topics. But if they really care about the women's rights, for example. I think that's very interesting. You have the progressive left. They talk about how they want to protect women's rights, how they want to strengthen them. But when it comes to those kind of sensitive issues, because they might be more prevalent in minority communities, all too often they don't really want to talk about it.

They're deeply uncomfortable, and it's almost like their political correctness gets in the way of taking action on those kind of issues. But I think in going back to this idea of multiculturalism, I think there's that it's almost like politicians, they have a greater emphasis on what's different about us, and they celebrate that. But they don't understand the complications that come with diversity.

Because ultimately, if there's a great deal of cultural diversity, but you have that lack of, that sort of that unifying set of values, then you almost have a balkanisation process. And I think that's quite problematic, because if there's a lack of social trust in a diverse society such as ours, you almost lose public support for ambitious, collectivist, sort of endeavours, such as the all-encompassing welfare state. Now, I traditionally identify with the left.

I do think that we should have an all-encompassing welfare state, But in order to sustain that and keep that in healthy condition, you need to have high levels of social solidarity. And I think that's where my sort of traditional leftism, that's what it's rooted in, that sense that you need to have a stable national membership. You need to have high levels of social trust. And I think that naturally leads to immigration, for example, I do think that you need to have a fairly restrictive immigration system

in order to sustain that welfare state. Because I think that if you have this kind of, it's a constant flush, in the sense, trust takes a long time to develop, especially when it comes, you know, when it's between different racial, ethnic and religious groups. So I really think that we need to have, I think on the left, the left needs to have more discussions about immigration.

I think that all too often we've had these open border cosmopolitans who have almost dominated the debate on the left. And I think that's actually alienating for many traditional working class voters who may associate, well, traditionally associated themselves with Labor, but now maybe looking elsewhere to offer their electoral support. So I think ultimately with multiculturalism, it's about trying to create a unifying set of values and almost being guarded against that celebration of difference

because I think if you go over the top with that, it makes it very difficult to create a cohesive whole. And you've made a lot of good points. You talked about being on the left and yet wanting a policy of immigration that is restrictive. I mean, you can't say that if you're on the left. I can't. I mean, you just fucking did, mate.

Just did, mate. What are you going to do about it? In your face, what are you going to do? But most people on the left can't do that because it seems to me a lot of leaders on the left are crippled by two emotions, guilt and fear. I think that, for example, when it came to freedom of me, I think that was one of the reasons why we voted out, to be honest.

I think that people said, oh, you know, this was driven by anti-immigrant sentiment. Well, also I'd make the point that there was decent levels of Brexit support in ethnic minority communities, especially particularly well off Indian origin communities in West London. I come from Luton, which voted 56.5% leave. Now, that wasn't purely white working class people voting to leave the European Union. They had decent levels of leave support across different ethnic and religious groups. I think that there is that acknowledgement in many communities

that if you want to have a sustainable welfare state, you need to have high levels of social trust and social solidarity. So ultimately, it's almost a sense that if you want to support, if you're supportive of that kind of welfare state, that's not compatible with an open borders policy. And I think that's what many people on the left really struggle to understand. But I think many British people get it. But that's perhaps why Labor, you know, they're not very good at winning elections nowadays. Do you think they struggle to understand it or do you think they're just scared in order? Because if they do come out and talk about restrictive immigration, they'll be demonized as racist, whatever else.

particularly, and they're more likely to be demonised as racist, if they're white. I mean, look at, sorry to interrupt, but just look at, like, Kea Stama, when he first became leader, he tried to talk about the flag and, you know, whatever. And he got creamed for that. So what are they going to tear off him if he starts talking about immigration? Do you know what I mean? I think his problem is that he's not very convincing when he expresses his supposedly patriotic feelings. I don't think it's very, it's not authentic.

I think there's an authenticity problem there. I think that being the chief architect of the second referendum policy, I think that that really undermined his own reputation in pro-Brexit, working-class communities who traditionally voted for the Labour Party. I think that when you look at those discussions, I think there is an intellectual deficit on the left,

if I'm being completely honest, but I also agree that even if people may feel that way, perhaps they don't feel comfortable in articulating those kind of views because of the ideological leanings of their own social circles. That is a possibility. And doesn't that just mean, Rickay, because I see myself on the left as well,

even though a lot of them probably would hate to have me on the left. Yeah, I'm sure they would. You didn't have to say that, but anyway, but don't you think that, effectively, what we're going to see now is a conservative government that's just going to reign for generations? And I think that's poor for British democracy. Because I think you need to have a robust...

You need robust intellectual opposition to keep the government in check. I think you almost have that kind of sclerosis, you know, the thing, mistakes at the heart of government, behaviours which I don't particularly support at the heart of government as well. Matt Hancock springs to mind. But I think those kind of things creep in when there's a weak opposition from being perfectly honest.

And even with all those things going on, the Tories continue to register leads in every poll. I think Professor Matt Goodwin, I think there's nearly 131 consecutive polls now, that the Tories have been ahead. of Labor. Labor had been out of power for 11 years. And I wouldn't say that the government is a particularly

high-performing government. I think overall, I think the main issue is that it's not so much that people are really supportive of the government. They love the Conservative Party. Instead, they dread the alternative. That's so true. Rakeep, let me ask you the devil's advocate question, which is, aren't

you know, I never pretended to be on the left. I've always thought of myself in the centre, but the two of you are. Aren't you just two conservatives who are really deep down, you just hate immigrants and you're just sitting here going, well, I used to be on the left, but actually get them out. Do you know what I mean? Well, I mean, it's unusual to be accused of that being a Bangladesh and Indian Muslim origin. But I think that ultimately you need... But there are people who would do that. They'd say you're a coconut and whatever you're

Yeah, actually. I mean, I've heard it all before. Uncle Tom, coconut, race traitor, House Muslim and all the rest of it. It's all a war off a duck's back for me. I couldn't care less. because ultimately I know that what I'm saying is quite, well, it's relevant. I think it's necessary. And I think when you look at myself and Francis, I identify with the left. One of the first things I did when I obtained full-time employment was join a trade union, which I think is a fairly leftist thing to do. I think that, as I said, I support an all-encompassing welfare state.

I care a lot about the NHS in terms of being responsive to the needs of a diverse population. I also want to see a fairly active state in terms of trying to develop public infrastructure in some of the poorest parts of the country. I think these are quite classic bread and butter leftist issues. It's just that when it comes to the sort of racial grievance politics, the traditional British left is rooted in social solidarity. So I see that racial grievance politics

as a betrayal of traditional labour politics. And I don't think that's a particularly controversial view offer? And do you think your argument is going to win? Because the worry I have with the racial grievance stuff, and they found a way because they tried it with feminism, and it didn't quite work, because at the end of the day, you can't really separate women and men enough, like, to see them, for them to see each other as enemies. But with racial groups, we are hardwired for tribalism. And I just worry that this ideology is so, like, Oh, it's right there in the gut.

Do you know what I mean? And it preys on your worst instincts. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you teach people that over time, I just feel like it's going to be hard for your very reasonable point of view to triumph over that thing that hits you right in here. Do you know what I mean?

I don't think my arguments will win on the left. I'd like to see it win on the left if I'm being perfectly honest. I think that's a big part of my book, manufactured grievance. I want to offer the left a way out in terms of being a more mature and inclusive force in British political society. I'm not sure if that will happen, but I think my arguments would win out in the mainstream. And I think that's important. And I already said that I think the mainstream is more tolerant than many people on the left portray them to be.

I think that they are quite concerned. Well, they're concerned about rooting out discrimination wherever you find it, whatever kind of discrimination that is. But in terms of would my arguments win on the left, I'm not particularly sure. but I see people, for example, Paul Embry, the kind of arguments he makes, I think they're very important. And I do feel that kind of blue labour tendency, those kind of writers, Adrian Pabst would be another one. I think they bring important discussions to the table. They bring important points to the table. But if you're talking about, I almost feel that there's a battle for the left

soul in a sense. I'm not sure how that will pan out. But I think when you're talking about my kind of arguments. I think ultimately it's about, you know, whether or not, oh, I win here or I win there, I think it's ultimately portraying, you know, what I think about Britain, what I think would be a positive way forwards when it comes to race relations and community cohesion. And then I'll let people discuss about it. Hey, Francis, do you want to learn another language? No, mate, I'm English. If foreigners can't understand, mate, I just shout at them. Think about it. You could learn how to say penalties in Italian. Leave it. But if you do want to learn another language because maybe you want to have new experiences, live in another country, or maybe you just want to open your mind.

My mind's open enough. If I open it up any further, my brain's going to hurt. This is true. But Babel's 15 minute lessons make it the perfect way to learn a new language on the go. They design their courses with practical real-word conversations and mind. Sentences you will use in normal everyday life. Sentences like, Pedro, do so best of all. Thank you, Francis. And Babel's courses have been proven to be scientific... And Babel's courses have been proven

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podcast so you can brush up on your French and Spanish on the go. Start your new language learning journey today with Babel. And before you know, you'll be, you can't speak Spanish. Absolutely perfect. No, I mean, Gary. Right now, Babel is offering our listeners six months free with a purchase of a six month subscription with our promo code, which is, of course, trigger. Go to UK.babel.com slash play and use promo code trigger for an extra six months free. That's UK.b-B-B-B-E-L dot C-O-M-F-S-P-P-P-P-E-L-L-C-O-M-F-E-L-ROM slash play promo code trigger. There's something that I really wanted to discuss with you, and you brought it up there about the, let's call them what they are, the racial slurs that have been held against you by people on the left. Sure. Number one, why does that happen? And number two,

why do people not think that is racist? Because if it came from the mouth of, you know, a white van driver, whatever else to use a cultural stereotype, you'd be like, well, that's racism, and you'd be right. But why is it acceptable just because someone's got pronouns in their bio to do it to you, and that's fine? Because I think they're moral guardians. They see themselves as moral guardians,

so they can't even understand, you know, what they're doing is wrong. They don't believe it. And when you try to explain it to them, they still don't really see what they're doing wrong at all. I think that when it comes to those kind of racial slurs, I think you almost see that kind of, I think, for example, with BLM,

I think there's been an increase in intra-black animosity. Black people who don't, who refuse to tow the identitarian line. It's almost like their black authenticity is being questioned. And I think you also have that similar kind of dynamic in Asian communities, Muslim communities. If you have a particular issue on counter-terrorism, for example, counter-extremism, social integration and discrimination more generally.

You'll have, you know, one Muslim might accuse another Muslim of being a sort of house Muslim almost trying to appease non-Muslim people. So you have that kind, it's really nasty, the kind of tensions which have developed in recent times. And I do think there's been a normalisation of left-wing bigotry, which is going to alienate not just much of the sort of white British mainstream, but I think many traditional-minded ethnic minority people find it hugely problematic. It's interesting, and you bring up the tensions within, again,

I hate the word community because I think it's just been abused to death now, but within the Muslim population in the UK, particularly in relation to counter-terrorism and all of that sort of thing. I mean, a question that I think a lot of people don't ask out loud, but my ask inside the privacy of their own home or inside of their head, is why have we had? and thank God it hasn't happened in the last year or two. But why do we have, you know, over the last 10, 15 years,

terrorist attacks on the streets of London that are almost inevitably always committed by someone who's a Muslim? Why is that happening? I think that there's real issues in terms of social integration. I think that we have allowed counter-societies to develop in particular parts of the country and perhaps maybe because of political correctness or rather just a naivety that people who originate

from fairly unstable countries, they'll just enjoy the freedoms that are offered within British democracy. I think there has been, it's almost like a misplaced idealism in a way. I think that people talk about foreign policy, the invasion of Iraq, the war in Afghanistan. But I do think that we, it's almost that us and them mentality has been allowed to fester in particular communities. and I think that in a way that you've had this sort of model of multiculturalism which has almost empowered these self-appointed community leaders who aren't necessarily helpful from a social cohesion perspective by the way

that they've been empowered while you've had the more sort of patriotic, reformist kind of forces in British Muslim communities they've almost had the legs cut off under them really that they've just been left behind, abandoned and I think that that's been a real problem. problem. When we're talking about, you know, the threat of Islamist extremism, I think that those kind of dynamics have been, they just haven't been productive at all in terms of trying to create a more cohesive society. And I do feel that in terms of those discussions about

the place of British Muslims, I think that the wrong organisations at times, they've been empowered in terms of, you know, being platformed, being offered a view. When, okay, you can offer them a view, but then just to completely alienate people who might have a different point of view, or rather not even give them to the opportunity to articulate their more positive, optimistic view of Britain, I think that's been hugely, you know, hugely troubling to see. And do you think part of the problem is that in the media, and just in general, negative messages are in some ways far more powerful than positive messages? I think so. I think that my kind of views, maybe perhaps it doesn't, you know, attract much

social media, social media engagement. I think that the media ultimately, it functions on hits, attention. And I think I guess maybe outlandish, outrageous, almost extremist views, it gathers people's attention. Well, I think that more sort of moderate, optimistic, positive views, perhaps certain editors, certain channels, they're just reluctant to platform those views because they don't see it generating much attention to their outlets.

So what would be a healthy conversation around the issue of Islamism in the UK and in relation to terrorism? Because I just feel like if you were to watch the news, you wouldn't understand why anything is happening. That's the biggest problem with the media for me is it's lost its explanatory power, right? If you watch an event and then you watch the coverage, you wouldn't know why it's happening. I don't really think that I know why someone would go into London Bridge near here and stab people to death.

I don't understand. I don't know. I think most people in this country don't really know, right? And when anything like that happens, we're always told, well, Islam is a religion of peace. And most Muslims are peaceful. There's no question about that, right? But why is that happening? Do you see what I'm getting that?

Like, why is someone doing that? Yeah, I mean, I think that there's, you know, for different terrorist attacks, there's different, motivations. I think that we have to be honest that, you know, Islamist extremism at the heart of it is the construction of a global caliphate. I mean, obviously, British liberal democratic values, there's not much space for British liberal democratic values. And there'll be various tactics and strategies that will be deployed to undermine those values in infiltrate, you know, extremists would like to infiltrate and influence the behavior of public institutions, what goes on within those institutions as well.

And I think ultimately, another important point is that that sort of man-made legislation, there's not any place for that under sort of, you know, Islamist extremist mindsets. So these people, and we've had people on to talk about the battle between nation states and the Islamists in the Middle East. So that's a really interesting point to get into.

So I guess what you're saying is what these people want is to create a global caliphate and they want to undermine the liberal democratic structures of our society. Absolutely. But how does stabbing someone on London Bridge do that? Well, I think that in terms of the effectiveness of it, you know, that we could definitely have a, we could definitely have a debate on that. Yeah. I think that but in terms of when I'm talking about maybe almost a non-violent Islamism you can say, some people would just say that, you know, the best way to do this would be to intimidate non-Muslims, make them feel feel

within their own country, that sort of intimidation factor, make them feel unsettled, uncomfortable, and aware of our extremist presence. A violent terrorist attack can achieve that. But when I'm talking about, you know, influencing behavior within public institutions, state schools would be an example. It would almost be, as you say, it's almost undermining those liberal democratic structures and values

through taking control or rather influencing behavior within public institutions. And I think that all too often our, our sort of mainstream political leaders, been sleeping at the wheel, if I'm being absolutely honest. I think that when we look at the Labour Party, we've had politicians such as Nash Shah, who've talked about prevent, say that prevent alienates British Muslim people. And then there was a poll that showed that 56% of British Muslim people never heard of prevent.

They're so alienated. They forgot about it. I almost see that there's politicians, they're given that platform. And they're just spouting, you know, very divisive. messages about how people relate to public institutions. But in reality, if they were more optimistic, and I'm not saying that they should deny the existence of anti-Muslim prejudice. Anti-Muslims prejudice does exist in the UK.

We should be honest about that, especially in the labour market when it comes to employment, private rented sector, and when it comes to housing, there's issues there as well. But to say, you know, prevent alienates British Muslims when more than half of British Muslims haven't heard of prevent, It does create that us and them kind of mentality. And then once someone is on that path,

they can be very easily exploited, especially if they live in communities which are very much monoreligious, fairly segregated. They don't have experience of positive relations outside of their own faith group. And perhaps they're detached from mainstream democracy. Those people are quite easy to work on. They're quite susceptible or rather vulnerable to extremist influences.

And once they're on that part, path, then it can be a very slippery slope, Islamist extremism. So I think those are the kind of processes at play when you're talking about how Islamist extremism is a problem in Britain. So, Raheep, we've identified the problem. What's going to be the solution? How do we overcome this? How do we have a more cohesive society? Well, I think that, I think equality, I think equality, I think it's about ultimately building on what are sort of classic British principles. So I think equality of opportunity would be one. I think that's something. that people in different ethnic and religious groups can really buy into.

Most people don't interest and equality of outcomes. They expect fairness, not favours. I think that there's obviously a discussion to be had in terms of creating institutions where they're not seen as the enemy, or rather it's an institution that's against me. I think that what we need to do, we need to find ways to improve relations between citizen and state. I think that we need to have institutional reforms where people, people feel more connected to those institutions. I think all too often they feel quite distant, top down.

I think if it's sort of leading officials in different public institutions, if they just did more community work, more community engagement, I think people, they just feel more of a closeness. And I think that provides a sense of rootedness and belonging as well in local communities. If they feel that their institutions in those communities actually care about them, or they're interested in what they have to say. So I think those kind of things, and that can actually help to improve race relations, over time as well.

I think we've also been talking about ismistic extremism. But I think one of the finest things about British Muslim communities is how family-oriented they are. I think there's strong forms of intergenerational cohesion within British Muslim communities. While I feel that one of the biggest problems in the mainstream is, for example, loneliness among the elderly and family breakdown. So I think those are the kind of things that may be those kind of issues

surrounding family breakdown we should talk about a little bit more. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And we'll ask you our final question then. But I actually think that is so true because some immigrant communities do have those values that British people used to have, but increasingly are starting to break down. There's erosion there. Yeah, there is.

And actually, that is something we could kind of share and learn from each other. Absolutely. It's not just about what, you know, ethnic minority communities can learn from the white mainstream. Because if you see, for example, in terms of school performances, pupils coming from ethnic minorities, but performing particularly well, even if they're from deprived back,

backgrounds. The thing is just is talking is basically we need to have a discussion about what really works in Britain and when we talk about those shared values what we should be focusing on, I think we ultimately have to focus what are the issues we have in Britain which can affect different communities. It might affect certain communities more but also what's working well in particular communities and how that can help to create a more, it's almost like a high performing country as a whole, you know, really boosting educational outcomes across the board, you know, enhancing levels of social stability, how we can, say, you know, reduce criminal activity. I think just talking about how we can create a more stable society and a more democratically

healthy society, I think those are the discussions that we need to be having. And that would be a really mature way forwards in terms of our race relations conversation and more generally how we can build stronger levels of social cohesion. Thank you so much for coming on the show. If people want to find you, where's the place to do that? Well, they can follow me on Twitter at R-A-K-I-B-E-H-S-A-N. And yeah, I think to be honest, if you just start typing my first name, I should pop up barely early on.

Brilliant stuff. Thank you so much for coming on the show. My pleasure. Guys. Well, we've got one more question, don't we? Oh, we all. Of course, we've got one more question, which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about,

but we really should be? I think it's something that I've touched on a fair bit. I think we need to talk about family structure and the importance of families in terms of, you know, youth social development. And I do feel that, you know, when we talk more generally about matters of equality, or inequality rather, I think that the impact in terms of family breakdown and how that can impact, or rather how that can contribute towards many social ills in local communities, I think that needs to be discussed a little bit more in the social policy space. Very good.

And the book, of course, is Manufactured Grieman. I really look forward to reading it. When can people get it and where? So you can pre-order manufactured grievance on Amazon, and it will be coming out in June 2022. So I'm working hard on at the moment. Fantastic. Well, thanks for coming on.

We're going to do a couple of questions for locals. But in the meantime, it's been a great pleasure. And thank you all for watching and listening at home. We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this. this one. Or a live stream and they all go out at 7pm UK time or 2pm Eastern Standard. Take care and see you soon guys. We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview. Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode. And if you believe that the work we do here at Trigonometry is important, support us by joining our locals

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