TRIGGERnometry - "Social Distancing is Impossible in Schools" - Katharine Birbalsingh

Episode Date: May 3, 2020

Katharine Birbalsingh is a British education reformer and headteacher. Help us save Angel Comedy Club! https://www.patreon.com/join/angelcomedy PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/donate/?token=bdgxUUDXN8CbRXAQe13CqA5m8zlbbYwUv-SXiJnVwEPb9m_22ZfnZHhGV4-Mo67K5NcDe0&country.x=GB&locale.x= Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is the show for you. If you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest and returning guest this week is the headmistress of the Michaela School in London. Catherine Berbel Singh, welcome back to Trigonometry. Hi, thanks for having me. Thanks for coming on. As I was just saying to you before we started, you're a busy woman at the moment, in demand. You were a news night last night. You're being interviewed. And as you say, you're trying to set people straight about all the nonsense that some people are talking when it comes to education. So what is it that people are getting wrong in view of the lockdown

and what do people misunderstand? One of the things that Francis and I really wanted to talk to you about is this mythical idea that somehow it's possible to have social distancing in schools. And anyone I think who remembers being under the age of 18 realizes that that's just never going to happen. Is that broadly your view? Yeah, well, I mean, that's what's strange. It's as if no one has. has ever been under the age of 18, so they don't seem to remember. Social distancing is impossible, as far as I can see. Now, obviously, if you have 25% of the school there, that might be possible.

So when they talk about a phased return, let's say they decide to just have the year tens in and the year 12s, because those are the year groups that will be going through to exams next year, you could do it. And I say you could do it. There will be difficulty. For one, you have to rejig the entire timetable. And people who don't work in schools, and this isn't anyone fault because they don't work in schools, they don't know that a timetable, every year when the new timetable for the next year is created,

it takes three, four, five, even six weeks for it to appear. And the timetable guy is like, you know, a slightly weird guy, maybe a bit of a nerd, he likes his numbers and all that. And he goes away into a room and locks himself. away for days on end and then eventually emerges with the time taking that would be me if I was employed in this school I'd be the nerd to go yeah so the thing is the idea oh it's all right you just collapse classes oh you know you're just throwing a bit of this throwing a bit of that it'll be fine I mean it's not so easy now I'm not saying it's not impossible and uh at mcale obviously we're all

about being excellent and so on so you know we'll do whatever whatever is required But from a national point of view, we need to recognize that not all schools will be in a position to be able to do that. And then, who are you letting back in? Are you only letting those children back in and everybody else has to stay at home? Or are you letting everybody back in? And if you're letting everybody back in, social distancing is impossible. I mean, people start posting things about, you know, Chinese children wearing hats that are on meter long. People apart from each other. Have you been to the schools in China? and have you been to the schools in England? Because they're really different places, you know?

I'm saying this as the headmistress of the strictestown school in Britain, you know. We get over 600 visitors a year. And they're mainly teachers. And they cannot believe the order and the wonderful behavior and so on. And to a certain extent, if we had, say, 50% of kids, 40%, 30%, we would be able to do it. But we have very narrow corridors. We're not the only school in the country that has corridors

that are maybe just over a meter wide, the children are necessarily touching each other when they're passing. But not only that, kids are kids. They run up to each other, they hug each other, they do birthday feet. It's craziness. I mean, I was on my walk the other day,

and I ran into one of them, I went into a couple of them actually separately, and one of them had these blue gloves on. And she was so excited to see me, she came running up to me, went to give me a big hug. So she was wearing the gloves. It was aware of this idea of, you know, you need to protect yourself,

but then saw me and wanted to give me a hug. So, because they're kids. They don't kind of realize. Another boy who I ran into, I dropped the cover of my, my water bottle. He immediately went and picked it up and gave it to me. And I was going, no, no, no, no. Now, you, that's two kids. Imagine 800, 900, 1,500, 1,500, 1,500 children in a,

school with narrow corridors in classrooms. The classrooms are only big enough to sit 30 kids right next to each other. When they come up out of their chairs to move out of the classroom, well, they're necessarily touching each other. We're handing out paper, books, pens, all of the time. So I think, sadly, there are a lot of people making pronouncements about what is possible in school when they don't actually work in schools, so that's one thing. But I do take the point. So people then think, because I've said social distinctions, is impossible in schools. Therefore, I'm saying we shouldn't go back to school. I am not of the opinion that we shouldn't go back to school for some 10 months. That would be crazy. In fact,

I don't hold an opinion at all about when we should go back. And the reason I don't hold that opinion is because I feel I don't really know. I'm not a virologist. I'm not an economist. I'm not an expert of these things. So I'm waiting for the experts to tell us when they think is the right time for us to go back. And I will do as told. And I'm not a veryologist. And I'm know some people in the education world get very angry when they hear that and they think, no, we should all refuse to go back. And I sort of think, well, what, are we going to refuse to go back forever? I mean, at some point, we've got to go back. And at some point, we need to try and make it work. How that happens, I don't know, and I'm not saying what the right way is, but I am saying

we need to trust the people who are making these decisions. And I think that's the difficulty that sometimes people have, especially in education, because a lot of people in education are left leaning, and the government, of course, is right leaning, so they feel that they can't trust the government to make the right decisions for them. My opinion on leadership is that, you know, in my own school, for instance, I ask the staff to trust me all the time with decisions that I make. It's the only way anything works. Any organization only works when you trust the leader and go with the leader. If we're all backbiting and fighting all the time

and accusing the government of doing X, Y, and Z then we're just going to blow up, I think. So, yeah, my position is, social distancing is impossible, but I do recognize that we need to go back to school at some point, whenever that is. And, you know, I genuinely

hope it's sooner rather than later, because I miss the kids, I miss the staff, I miss the normal way of doing things. You know, I love school. So obviously, I would prefer to go back, but obviously I don't want to put people's lives in danger. You know, some people as well have said the people who are very anti-lockdown, you know, they come out with information saying, well, there are studies that are showing that children

don't pass it on as much. I don't know how true that is, but certainly there are some people who are saying that. You know, and the other big, actually, the people who are wanting schools to open up soon, the big thing that they don't take into account, is that they say, children don't really pass it on to each other. So it's okay, but they're not giving any thought to the teachers. And I understand the hurt the teachers feel when they hear that, because they sort of think, well, sorry, do we not count? Do our lives not matter?

And there is, I think, a tendency in the country, sadly, this kind of teacher bashing that I've seen, which is not nice, where there's no sense. There's no sense of understanding that teachers are currently working, for instance, or doing what they can for the children in their care. And this sense that you teachers, get out to work, you're just a bunch of lazy idiots. I have a problem with that. And of course, there are lazy teachers.

I mean, I'd be the first person to say that. But there are also some really hardworking teachers out there who are giving their role at the moment. Their whole Easter holiday, they'll have spent working for the kids. I know my own staff are 100% committed. Every child at our school gets a phone call every week. We're sending them video lessons. We're doing Zoom lessons. We're doing all sorts of things for the kids.

So it's not really fair when people then start accusing teachers of being lazy. When in fact, you know, some of them are just genuinely concerned. They're saying, well, wait a minute, is my life going to be in danger if I'm back in school? And I don't think there's anything unreasonable. Well, there you go. Teachers' lives matters, guys. I feel that some people kind of don't think they do. Genuinely, I'm shocked by some of the things that I hear people saying about teachers.

Now, on the, but there is some truth in that, you know, I also hear on Twitter, this is when I say I hear, I'm talking about Twitter, I hear some people complaining and saying, look, my child's school has gone dark. We haven't heard anything from them. And actually, parents listening should think to themselves, This is a good time to judge your school, actually. Have you been hearing much from your school? Have you been getting lots of work?

Do you feel supported? Because if you don't, then actually, perhaps, it's not a very good school. And there are good schools and there are bad schools. And that is something I know the education system is not willing to recognize. They like to say that all schools are brilliant and all teachers are brilliant.

And of course, as in any profession, there are, you know, there are good lawyers and there are bad lawyers, there are good dentists and bad dentists. You know, it's the same thing in teaching. And I think everyone would do well to remember that, both the educationalists and the non-educationalists when making these judgments of teachers, because there are some who are giving their all and happen at a moment, you know, and then there are others who perhaps aren't doing anything. So, you know, it's just about understanding that nuance. And Catherine, one of the things

that I really want to discuss with you is, what effect is this having on the lowest, the children who come from the poorest backgrounds. The children who desperately need that structure in school, the kids who school is really a safe haven for them. They must be really struggling with this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, now, we need to remember that schools are not closed, right?

They are open to vulnerable kids who need that. Now, so those children ought to have some kind of check-in in something that's happening. They're either turning up to school or teachers are involved in making sure they're okay. And they are obviously a minority of children. The ones that we aren't talking about so much are the ones who aren't doing any work. And some of the listeners might think, oh, that would have been me. I wouldn't have done anything. And what we find at school is that the children, there are some children who will do lots, lots of working harder than ever before,

because they've got families at home who are very supportive and very keen on them doing well. And then there are others who are not doing as much. That's why we do the phone call thing. We do a phone call with the child to try and keep them on task and engaged in what's going on. Sometimes families can't speak English. Sometimes families have five or six children. There's no way that they're going to be looking after they're learning. Other families don't engage in education.

They don't believe in it. They don't think that it's going to change their child's life. So they're not too bothered. Oh, well, who cares about your history? cares about your science. It doesn't matter. In fact, perhaps the house is so chaotic that parent, parent on their own with five children is thinking, great, you've got a phone, you can just sit there on Snapchat, you can sit there on Instagram and so on. And that's a key point, again, that people are misunderstanding. There is this whole, well, this kind of made-up situation. I say made-up, because I do

feel it's invented of all of the poor children out there who cannot access learning because all the learning is happening online. And if they don't have a phone or a tablet, then they're not able to access it. I think you'll find that the vast majority of people do have phones or tablet. They have something to be able to access. And that, in fact, it's the phone or the tablet that's preventing them from working. So on the one hand, we want them to have the tablet to be able to get the video lesson or the Zoom lesson. On the other hand, that's the thing that makes it so that they're on Snapchat and Instagram all the time,

so that they're cutting out pictures of themselves and putting them on a Zoom lesson so it makes it look like they're there. Or they are sending emails in from their parents' email, pretending that they're the parent to say, oh, we're very ill at the moment he can't do his work. You can imagine all the tricks that they're able to, you know. And teachers have been thrown into this situation.

You know, they don't necessarily, I mean, imagine there's lots of teachers who are over the age who are my age and older. They're not super experts at computers and online learning and zooming and so on. So they have to learn all of that really quickly. And then they're having to create, we've got Google Classroom, they've got video lessons, they've got all this stuff they're trying to get their heads around. And they're managing it. But the kids are smarter than we are.

Come on. They know this stuff inside out. And so if they don't have a problem, parent at home who's on them and who's saying come on now what's the work today what's been said if that's not happening then um they're gonna they're gonna get away with it and so i do feel that there's this kind of work signaling that's going on you know how we talk about virtue signaling well i think that there's a work signaling that goes on so schools might you know be saying i'm doing all these zoom lessons we're doing this we're doing that but how many children are actually

working. That's what every leader in education needs to be asking themselves right now. How many children in your school are working? So we've got this whole spreadsheet, which teachers are filling out constantly every week. And the phone call is checking online learning to see what they've done. And we're getting photos in of work that they've done. And then on the spreadsheet, you know, we've got color codes and all sorts of things so that the e-tutor, we call them, who rings, is able to see in an instant whether that child is doing what we're asking them to do, they're doing half of what they're being asked to do, or whether they're doing nothing.

And then that conversation can be had. If, on the other hand, you're just doing Zoom lessons and children are just, you know, they're logging on or they're not logging on, who knows? And nobody's tracking that. Then I think what's happening is a lot of work signaling going on, but work isn't actually being done.

And, I mean, that's nobody's fault. I'm not blaming schools for that. This is all brand new. And it's very hard. And over time, with the Michaela teachers, you know, we've been learning, we started doing one thing, then we did a bit different, you know, and we have our Zoom meetings, and we figure out what's best to get the most children working most of the time, you know?

But this is hard, and I think that we will find at the end of this, that, I think schools will find that far fewer children did the work than perhaps they thought they were doing, and that's where when we talk about disadvantaged kids, you know, we're not just talking about the ones with really difficult parents who, you know, social services need to be involved with, which is what, you know, we were talking about earlier. I'm just talking about kids whose parents aren't really engaged in education and whose parents aren't going to make them do the work. And because they're outside of school, they're outside of that environment where all the children are working, they're not as committed as they would have been otherwise. And what are going to be,

do you think the long-term implications of that, that we're going to have these kids, a lot of them from the very poorest sections of society, disenfranchised, not connecting, not learning. I mean, it's going to create a massive gap between rich and poor, isn't it? Yeah, I don't know. It'll be interesting. I mean, I don't know.

I mean, certainly on Newsnight, you know, the various people they were interviewing before we went on, you know, live, we're sort of saying, this is the end of the world. Oh, my goodness, this gap that's going to be created. What are we ever going to do? And I mean, look, obviously I'm worried about those kids. And we're doing everything we can at our school to keep those kids on task.

And we're already thinking about, well, from September, what can we do to try and catch them up as much as we can? When we're thinking about the year 10s or the year 12s. Well, the year 12s, I'm not so worried about actually. They're on task. They're okay. It's the year 10s I worry more about. There's more of them who are slipping.

And we then think, okay, well, with God to the GCSE, how can we fix it so that they are prepared as well as possible for that GCSE? I mean, so these are issues. Sorry, let me jump in there. Do you think those exams that you're talking about, GCSEs A-levels, are they actually going to go ahead as normal, do you think? I can't imagine that they wouldn't. They've already had one year where the children haven't had exams.

I mean, I suspect the grade boundaries will drop massively. but I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have the exams. Yeah, the grade boundaries will drop and less will be expected of the kids. And that is ultimately it. I mean, so when I do feel people are catastrophizing a bit and sort of saying, oh my goodness, what's going to happen to these children? I mean, it is bad.

I mean, remember, I'm the strictest headmistress of Britain. You like that, Brandon, don't you? You take great pleasure in it. Honestly, I'm really into school. And I'm really, I'm a great believer in education. And I want the children to get the best possible learning. And I'm all about that. But I also recognize that we, this is a pandemic.

You know, this has never happened before. We want as many people to live as possible. That is more important than whether or not they've read a Shakespeare play. And I mean, look, some people might say, oh, my goodness, Catherine Durbin Singh saying it doesn't matter if they haven't read a Shakespeare play. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. matter, but at the end of the day, we have to get through this. And so when we come out the other cycle, if we were to go back in the summer term, when I say summer term, I mean, after May

half term, at some point before the summer, I think things can be salvaged. I don't think it's the end of the world, and I think we'll be okay. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being, rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers. You're spending a third of your life on the thing, and most people have no idea what's actually in it.

Avocado green mattress is different. Their mattresses are certified organic, built from natural materials, designed to actually support your body properly rather than just hold you in one position until morning. The craftsmanship is real. These aren't mass-produced objects. Someone has put thought into them. I'll be honest.

I'm not the person who thinks carefully about where he sleeps. My dating history will tell you that. I'm the person who's been on the same mattress for eight years and called it fine. But the older I get, the more I notice that fine isn't actually fine. Your body tells you, if you're going to invest in anything for your home, your bed is the one that pays you back every single night. Avocado products are made, not manufactured, and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort and support.

Go to avocado green mattress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Hello and welcome to Palacio Orgasmo, aka my bedroom. Actually, guys, just a little joke for you there. I'm self-isolating, so I am actually deeply alone. However, we've got a brand new sponsor for this week. It's Harry's.

Now, if you don't know, Harries, they are a show. shaving company and they are absolutely brilliant. In fact, I use Harries on my face. Absolutely. So this lovely clothes shave that you see is a result of Harry's. Not my face because if you did get it from Harris, you'd ask for your money back. However, the products are really, really well designed. The gel feels so smooth on the face. The shave is nice and close but it doesn't feel like you're nick in your skin. I would really, really recommend you to try it out. It's done a great job on my face. Imagine what it could do on your face. Imagine what it could do on your So, Harries were actually set up by Jeff and Andy, which sound like completely made up names,

but there we go, who were absolutely sick of being ripped off with razors. So you know what they did? They did what any normal person would do. They went and bought a factory. And they bought that factory and they set up Harries. And Harries is almost half the price of regular five blade razors. So check them out. You can get started today with your trial set for just three pound 95. That's right. 3 pound 95 and you'll get a trial set delivered to you from Harry's. So guys, you want to support the podcast and access this offer. Go to harries.com forward slash trigger and you will get a razor handle, a fireblade

cartridge, shaving chel and also a travel blade cover. Can't say fairer than that. There are children who miss learning for all sorts of reasons. You know, they end up in hospital for six months because of something. they move away for six months, they go to some terrible school. I mean, what we all need to realize is that there are lots of children in the country

in normal times who don't really access the best education. There are lots of schools that don't give them a good education. So, you know, I don't like the juxtaposition that we've got at the moment between, as it was before, the perfect scenario with brilliant schools that were always developing, you know, wonderful children who always worked, Todd and the disadvantaged came up and always were able to compete for the best jobs.

And now, because we've had a few weeks off school, everything is destroyed. I mean, it's more complex than that. Yeah, it is more complex now. Of course it is. But, Captain, how long do you think realistically we can continue with the lockdown as it is now where, you know, it's okay before we start to get to a point where actually it starts to have a very serious, deleterious. long-term impact on the kids and actually on the teachers, on the schools and on society going

forward as well as a result. How long can we, how much more can we take? Yeah, to be honest, you say it's okay at the moment. I actually have no idea. I mean, I'm not an economist. I have, I have no idea what kind of effect this is going to have on the economy and also what kind of effect it's going to have on people's souls. You know, I think about our families and families whose jobs will be in jeopardy. We have a lot of families. There'll be families who are single moms who are cleaners. Well, they'll have just been fired by the various people that they clean for.

How are they going to support their families? You know, like, I really worry about our families from that perspective. And I do think that teachers don't do enough worrying for those people. What I mean is when the teachers are saying, we're not going back until it's safe and that's that. I think that's unreasonable because that means you're not giving enough thought to those people whose salaries are not secure, and it's not just the salary. You know, you might say, oh, but you're getting some money, if you're running a little business

and you were in the middle of growing it, and now, boom, it's just stop. I don't know what kind of effect that's going to have on you and on your family. And I'm not an economist. I'm also not a virologist, so I don't know about the risks that we're taking when we go back to school. But I'm in from an education point of view, in terms of actually the, the schools, the education system, and also the learning of the kids. How much longer can we have a situation where we are in a position that we're in before it starts

to actually cause problems? I mean, it sounds like you feel like right now it's not the end of the world. It's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world. But how long until it starts to become actually a problem? Well, I don't want to say it's not a problem. It is a problem. I mean, they're not in school. They're not learning as much.

Now, I do think lower down, you know, when it comes to children at four and five and so on, if they're not learning how to read, the impact is greater. I'm at secondary school. If the children don't learn that chunk of history or that chunk of science, well, they don't learn that chunk of history or that chunk of science. I mean, you could go on for a very long time like this. You know, they'll be okay. I mean, you know, when people say, you know, I'm considered it to myself to be a traditionalist,

and then they're the people who I argue with who are considered to be the progressives. And when the progressives say things like, well, you can learn so much from life and, you know, you don't necessarily need to read a Shakespeare play, well, it's sort of true in the sense that, you know, you're not going to die if you haven't read Shakespeare. You're going to be okay. I don't think your life is going to be as interesting. I think it would be a shame if you've never read Shakespeare. And so they are missing out on certain bits of learning, but they'll still learn when they come back.

And what I would stress is that we mustn't assume that those children were all learning loads before. The children who come to school, the children who are not doing any work right now, their schools were always in a bit of a fight with them to get them to work, right? And depending on what kind of school you went to, if you went to a really good school, then they got you working. But if you went to a school that wasn't so great, those kids were never doing any work anyway. So, you know, they didn't read Shakespeare plays before. They didn't know much about history before. It's one of the things that I campaign about all the time, which is that we need to make education better. When people say, what are we going to do to fix this situation, the best thing, I mean, Wilshaw,

Michael Wilshaw came out yesterday on news night saying that what we need to do is have Saturday classes and holiday classes, and the kids can catch up then. And I genuinely thought, have you forgotten what it's like to be in school, Mr. Walshaw? What are you talking about? I mean, look, let's just assume that all the teachers are willing to do that in the first place. Now, that's going to be difficult anyway. But let's assume that they're all willing to come in on the Saturdays and the holidays and so on and do that.

And the reason why they might not, I don't think it's unreasonable for them not to be keen on that because they've been working through their Easter holidays, they'll be working through their May half term. They are working right now. So I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to say, wait a minute, I've got my own family. How am I going to have my own children looked after on a Saturday when I'm coming in and so on? I don't think there's unreasonable. But let's say

they're all in there and they're willing to work. The kids who didn't do their work during lockdown are the same kids who won't show up that Saturday morning. They're not suddenly going to get inspired and say, I'm going to give up my Saturday and go in and work because I didn't do enough work during lockdown. And their parents are not going to make them go in. So that is an absurd suggestion. And I don't understand how it could ever be named. The fact is that all we can do when we go back to school is present them with excellent learning, teaching, excellent behavior in the school.

That's what we need. Excellent behavior will allow you to social distance as much as you can because what the kids aren't going to do is run around, whacking each other deliberately, you know, in order to cause chaos because they're used to behaving themselves. That's the behavior. Then there's the idea of, well, how do you teach them? Obviously, you want to teach them the best way possible.

And I'm a real traditionalist. I believe the best way possible is to be at the front of the class, leading the learning and imparting knowledge. That's what we should be doing as teachers. And more than ever, I think, we're going to have to do that when we get back to school. And I suspect lots of teachers across the country will be doing that. But there's no outside fix, you know. I know the government is under a lot of pressure to look like they're fixing.

So what we'll do is we'll buy tablets. Well, buy tablets for all the disadvantaged children and give them tablets and then everything will be all right. No, it won't because they're going to use those tablets to get on Snapchat. So that is not a solution. Or they say, I know what we need to do. Let's get them in on Saturdays and on the holidays. And then there's an argument between those who think teachers are lazy. They just don't want to teach on Saturdays.

And then there's the ones saying, no, no, no, no, we've got to get them in on Saturdays. Well, is anybody showing up, is my point. If the kids aren't there, then there's no point in having this conversation. So it's, it is complex. difficult. There is no particular solution apart from really good teaching when we come back, really good thinking. Any of the school leaders who are listening to this need to be thinking, and I'm sure they are already, they need to be thinking, how are we going to manage this when we get back to school to get the most that we can out of the kids? And that is about giving them excellent

behavior systems and excellent teaching. And then the children will be able to deliver. I mean, the percentages they were coming out with last night on Newsnight was that 50% of children in the country are not doing work at home. You know, and that's what they know. So if they know that 50% aren't doing it, that means far more than 50% aren't doing it. Now, I suspect at the better schools, I mean, we find over 80% of our kids are doing the work, and we know it. And we know it for certain. We're not being fooled. And that's because we've thought about how they're going to fool us.

And we've got our spreadsheet, we've got our phone calls, and we've got everything happening. So we know. But it's true that those ones who are not working, I'm concerned about. And it is a genuine worry. Having said that, year sevens and eights, I do think they'll catch up. The big ones to worry about the year 10s and the year 12s. Those are the big ones. And then the little ones down on the other end, who I don't teach because I'm at secondary,

but those four and five-year-olds, six-year-olds who are learning how to read, learning how to write, that will have a big impact on them. But, you know, sometimes a kid, up in hospital for six months and he misses school. That's what life is. You just have to pick up, pick yourself up and keep on going, you know? And Catherine, what do you think are going to be the long-term implications of the fact that we're not having A-levels this year?

We're not having GCSEs. All these exams have been scrapped. These exams that kids have worked really hard for, do you think that's going to have a long-term impact on these children? Especially the children who, you know, again, come from poorer backgrounds. It's all right if you go to an exclusive private. school where you know you've got somebody who's going to be fighting your corner when it comes to university yeah no uh that that's absolutely true in fact you know it's it's really interesting from my

perspective the thing that they've lost out on is that build up and preparation towards a set of exams uh it really it teaches you so much about yourself about your working habits about how to learn what you're good at in terms of you know flashcards work from me or reciting works you know that sort of thing. You learn how you, the things that you like best when learning. You learn how to knuckle down and how to ignore all the distractions and how to make best use of your time, how to be efficient. You learn how to go to that revision session that's going on even though it's not mandatory. You know how to, you learn how to buy in to your life and how to own your life, you know. It's wonderful. I mean, people often in teaching don't like exams, you know,

Not all of us teachers are like that, but there are some teachers who are very critical of exams. They feel it puts too much pressure on children and so on. I really believe in exams for all of the skills that they teach you in the run-up to those exams. And so these children haven't had that. And I mean, at least the year 13s had it at GCSE. So there is that. I'm particularly concerned about the year 11s who haven't had. had that GCSE experience.

So when they then go on to do other exams, whether that's B-Tech or A-level and so on later, that'll be the first time that they're really coming across. I mean, I know they had their sats when they were in year six, but that's ages ago. They don't really remember that. So they've lost out on a whole load of skills there, which is a shame.

And actually, I'm not sure it matters whether you're poor or rich in that situation. I think everybody's in a similar situation. And you know, it's also interesting, because, you know, I have a friend. She works at a private, one of the top private girls schools. And, you know, it's highly selective. And she was saying, well, you know, they turn up to her zoo lessons and so on. But she's aware that they're on various apps when she's talking to them.

They're up to nonsense because they're kids, you know. The key thing, if you take one thing away from this interview, it's for everyone to remember they are kids. I feel like everyone, it's forgotten what kids are like, you know? Think back to what you were like as a child. Exemplary, Catherine. I mean, look, they're lovely. I love children.

That's why I'm a teacher. I love them. But come on, they're naughty and they try and get away with stuff. And the further distance to a school is from the child, the less opportunity we have to make sure that they're on that right track. And I said it at the beginning, actually.

To all my teachers, I said to them, right, well, we've got 98% of them, you know, doing all the work that we want. This is going to, it's going to curtail. They're going to start dropping off. As time goes on, there's something going to start going, yeah, okay, yeah, miss rang, which is just going to ring again next week. And actually, it doesn't matter so much anymore. And so, and of course, that's exactly what's happened because they're children, you know.

You know, the divide will, it will exacerbate that divide. But that's just, that's life. You know, we just need to work hard when we get back. Hi, guys, and welcome to my bedroom, or as it's otherwise called, Palacio Orgasmo. Now, this is a short video on behalf of the Angel Comedy Club. Now, you may not be aware, but there is something on the planet right now called the coronavirus, which is putting a little bit of a spanner into the works of a lot of people, especially comedy clubs. In particular, Angel Comedy Club, which is where we film our show.

and Angel has been so supportive to us. They've been absolutely brilliant. And they now need your help because they can't have any shows. They can't run a bar. But the problem is they still have to pay rent. So if you think a comedy club, which puts on acts like Stuart Lee, Eddie Isard, Maria Bamford for a fiver and lets us film for free is something that should exist in the world, I personally think it should, then all you have to do is give a little bit of money to the patron or maybe become a patron yourself or putting a little bit of money to the PayPal account, I will have links, there'll be links at the bottom in order for you to do that. Now, if you can't do that, no worries at all. We completely understand. But hopefully you'll be able to maybe pop down to Angel

one day to see a live show from us or a whole host of other fabulous comedians. Stay safe and take care. And do you think there are any positives that come out of this for teachers, for kids, for the education system is anything that we can learn from this that otherwise might not have happened any upsides at all that you see to what's happened um i don't know that will be a no i don't think there are i mean look it's lovely people clapping and and and it brings a certain camaraderie and people pull together and so on but i mean it's devastating obviously what is happening and No, I mean, I don't see many positives, apart from the fact that the country is trying to pull together. And I say the country is trying to pull together.

I'm disappointed by the number of people just saying crazy things, the accusations of the government. You know, I'm not saying the government has done everything correctly. Obviously, they're making mistakes. They're in a very difficult situation. But I do think it's, I do worry about the press being, so vicious in the way that sometimes they can be. These are just ordinary men and women. They get earned 67,000 pounds a year,

or whatever it is as a politician. They're just people who are trying to help their country. Now, you might want to say, oh, they've made certain mistakes. All the accusations of Dominic Cummings, I mean, look, he's just a bit of a nerd who can't dress properly. I mean, I don't think he's this mastermind,

you know, rubbing his hands together, thinking, oh, how can I, how can I get everybody to do what I want? And honestly, I just, I find it really weird. And it wouldn't matter which political party was in power. These people are just ordinary human beings trying to do the best job that they can. In a very, very difficult situation.

I can just imagine the stress that they've got. And when you look at Tony Blair or Obama, you look at them pictures before they started, and they've aged massively. You know, I can only imagine. you know, Matt Hancock must be aging 100 years every day, you know? Yeah, there's one exception to that rule, and I actually tried to do a comedy routine about it, that Donald Trump has not aged the day, apparently the stresses of power,

and not affecting him quite as much. But actually, it's a really important thing that you bring up, because I think that you are someone who is in a position of leadership, you have a lot of experience in that. And I think one of the things that I see from a lot of the people who are, in my opinion, overly critical, and I agree with you. of some of the things the government, they just don't have any experience of being a leader.

I mean, the first thing you learn when you lead anything, whether it's a school football team or anything, is that you make mistakes all the time and there is no getting away from it. Exactly. That is exactly right. And friends of mine who are attacking the government and so on. And I sort of think, look, if you're not a leader, it's true. They don't have the experience.

Journalists, obviously, are not leaders. I mean, obviously they are journalists and they're great at what they do and they're not being critical, but they also have never built something up from the ground and let it. And when you've done that, you know one, remember I spoke about trust at the beginning,

how important it is to have trust from your people. Because if you don't have that, then everything just spins out of control. The other thing that you learn is just how hard it is to be a leader and how hard it is to get it right. And that when you are hit by things that you're not expecting, you have to make quick decisions, and sometimes you're going to get them wrong.

And that's okay, because you're human. And you hope that you are surrounded by people who are kind enough to forgive you for those mistakes. And I know that I am with my staff. I'm very lucky to have my staff, because when I make mistakes, they forgive me, and they help me pick up the pieces, and we keep moving forward.

And I feel that there aren't enough people helping the government with that. that doesn't mean that they shouldn't put forward their alternative views. You know, Peter Hitchens is always going to take an alternative view and is very anti-the-lockdown, and that's fine. I just think that when we're being critical, we need to do it in a constructive way. We need to make our arguments and we need to lay out our evidence and reasons why,

as opposed to just making these big pronouncements. We're not going back until it's safe. Like, well, what does that mean? So we're not going back for a year? Is that what we're suggesting? You know, it's, we have to be reasonable. in what we're saying and what we're accepting. And I feel that I'm trying to be reasonable

when I say, look, whatever the government tells me to do, I will do. Now, and people are surprised by that because normally I get really annoyed about what we're told to do in education. And that's because I'm an expert at education. So I know what works in the classroom, and so I'm very vocal about that.

I know, for instance, the social distancing cannot work in schools, so I've been very vocal about that. What I don't know is how to get the kind of moving again and how to save all those small businesses. You know, people assume that it's just the virus that's killing people. But, you know, there's all sorts of stats to show that they're more, for instance, battered women at home who have been killed in the last few weeks. All sorts of people. People will be committing suicide because of their situation, financial

situations. You know, we mustn't just assume that the only thing that kills is the virus. There are other things that kill too. And I know. expert so that's why I can't make a decision. I'm simply bringing alarm bells and saying, hey, look, everybody, we need to think about this stuff. And is it very, very difficult now to sort of plan a coherent strategy where you were talking about the culture war in education where you're on one side and you've got progressives on the other side, can you actually formulate a coherent strategy when you've got those two sides bumping heads essentially? And that's the point. That's exactly the point, which is that all that ends up happening is each side is shouting.

Nobody's actually listening to each other. And it's really sad. I just remembered that I didn't mention actually about PPE because that's one thing that teachers say, you know, they need to have PPE. And that I don't think is an unreasonable thing for teachers to be provided with PPE while teaching. That would certainly go a long way to gaining the trust of teachers. So if government wanted to do something to make teachers feel at ease, that would be something. Having said that, PPE is difficult to get into the hospitals. And obviously, they need to be there first.

So maybe that's not possible. But not PPE for children, that's silly. And the reason why it's silly is because if you know kids... They'll break it in two minutes. Exactly. They'll lose it. It'll be finished. There's no point.

So the only people who should have PPE tools would be the teachers. You know, I thought it was really clever the way in which the supermarkets almost immediately enacted. You know, they got a screen up. It was within days that they had screens up and they had their stickers on the floor for two meters apart. And they had a whole system. They just changed everything instantly. That sort of thing might be, you know, what I'm saying is that systems in schools and leaders in schools needs to be thinking. this needs to be thinking, well, how can we make it so that we can protect our staff the best as possible?

The other thing I didn't mention, actually, in terms of running a school and how difficult it is, the idea of going back, is that we mustn't forget, if they're telling you to send home everybody who has a cough, and if they're telling you to send home everyone who has an underlying issue, and that includes everyone with asthma, and everybody has asthma, right? You've got less than half your staff there, and if you've got less than half your staff, but you've got all the kids, that's a disaster, right? So we do have to think really carefully about how it's done. Now, you may just want to send home the staff who have underlying issues, because what I understand, 50% of people carrying it wouldn't show symptoms anyway.

So, you know, what do you do? You've got five people with symptoms, five people without symptoms. Who do you send? It's very hard as a leader, and we must think about people like me had teachers who are having to make difficult decisions in difficult circumstances. And that's not me complaining, because they are also in a difficult situation. But I suppose my plea is to anyone listening to this to just be kind to those of us who are having to make difficult decisions in difficult circumstances. Nobody wants anyone to die.

Nobody wants to put anyone's life in danger. Everyone's trying to do their best. Now, we might disagree about how that best needs to be achieved. Even the scientists disagree with each other about the right way forward. So if even the scientists are disagreeing, then we need to recognize that there isn't obviously one clear route about what to do. Now, we do need to speak carefully. So you mentioned Donald Trump earlier, and I think that Donald Trump has been rather loose with his language and the things that he has been saying. And I think that that's poor leadership.

Leaders need to be very careful about what they say and how they say it, especially when others are listening. to you and then we'll go off and copy what you've said and will have misunderstood what you've said. And it's easy to say, well, they're just stupid. Well, you know, the fact is people don't know and they're listening to you. So you do have to be careful as a leader. There is a response, we have a responsibility, and I say we, because I'm a leader. We have a responsibility to think very carefully about the things that we're saying and what we're doing and our actions. and people have a responsibility, I think, to be kind in their judgment of us. And there's a question that I wanted to ask you actually last episode, Catherine,

and we touched on this earlier in the interview, which is teacher bashing. Teachers are one of the most important roles this country any society can have. We all remember a great teacher. We all remember a teacher that changed our lives, that inspired our love of learning for a particular subject. Why is it in this country, we do not have respect for teachers? Because I was a teacher for 12 years and I saw it day in, day out. That's why I make, because you were a teacher.

That's why we don't have respect for teachers. They let people like you do it. That's why. Absolutely. Well, that's probably part of it. But why do you think? What I find, it's been really interesting on Twitter because I've been able to have those conversations and hear what people say in a way that I, in my own,

circle of friends and so on, I wouldn't have heard these opinions because the people I know tend to like teachers. And what I hear is, often I hear, I had a teacher when I was in year seven who was mean to me and I hate him. And they kept that anger because there was a teacher who once did X and they hold that against everyone. I remember Diane Abbott once talking about a teacher of her. So this would have been in the 1980s and she'd written an excellent essay and it was brilliant, but she was told that it was bad and she was stupid and so on. And no doubt the teacher was racist and that was what was going on. This was in the 1980s. Now, she's taken that so to heart, I feel, that it informs her judgment of teacher. It has informed her judgment

of teachers since. And she's been well known to be accusing schools of being all sorts of things, you know, in the past. And I think that that's because she can't let go. of that particular experience. I find that with lots of my followers and Twitter and so on, that they are very angry about a particular teacher. They also have a certain way of, they believe that the school ought to teach in a particular way. And if the teachers aren't doing that,

they get very angry about it. And my position on that is that, look, you're going to get a variety of different schools. If you can have choice, if you live in a big city, great. You've got choice. try and choose a school that best matches your values. If you don't, well, sadly, that's just the way that it is. And you need to recognize that there is going to be a particular way

in which that school leader, that head teacher, is going to leave that school. And, you know, they might have a way of having the teachers all pull together and deliver teaching in a particular kind of way. Or they might be a lot more free about it. They might let teachers just get up to whatever they want. There are different styles of schools. and it's just the way that it is.

And you're not going to get a school, any school. You will never find a school which delivers exactly what you want. You as a parent, and this is key, and this is something that this pandemic is really demonstrating for me, which is that parents have forgotten that part of their role is to teach their children, okay? It isn't just the role of teachers. You as a parent, before your child goes to school,

should be trying to teach them how to read. You as a parent should be reading with them regularly, every single day, all of the time. I would say right up to the age of 15, you know. You as a parent should be encouraging them. If you are able to afford it, try and get them playing a musical instrument. If you can't afford it, get them doing chess online, for instance. Right now, you can go on to chesskid.com and you can get free subscription. In fact, all the time you could have played chess kid.

You don't get a subscription, but you could have done it for free. online all the time. Where are all the families sat around teaching the children how to play chess or sat around playing monopoly? You know, the fact is that parents have just farmed out that responsibility to schools. And I do think that this happens because the state has become all powerful in our society. And we are just used to looking to the state. We are dependent on the state for everything. Tell me how to think. Tell me what to do. Tell me. You know, and so when it comes to our own children, We do not recognize that our responsibility as parents is we are the first protocol in teaching them. Then you send them to school.

So yes, they're going to be taught physics, GCSC, you might not know much physics. They're going to be taught history, GCC. Maybe you're not an expert at that. But there's loads, certainly at primary level. You should be there every step along the way. And I think too many parents are not fulfilling their responsibility on that. And then they like to just blame. So they'll just blame the teacher.

It's because the teacher hasn't taught him. Well, what have you taught him as a parent? So it comes around. There is also, I mean, look, I'm blaming parents, but there is also the unions. The unions are one of the big reasons why teachers are hated, because they give us all of bad name. I'm constantly embarrassed, constantly humiliated by the things the unions are saying.

I mean, they make us look like we're lazy. That's what they make us look like. And what I would ask anybody, any non-educationalist listening to this, to listen to me and to believe me when I say, the vast majority of teachers are not like them, okay? The unions speak supposedly for us, but there are many teachers who they are not speaking for. It's just that those teachers don't have a voice.

There are all sorts of teachers right now who, and I don't mean me, because I do have a voice. I mean, there are naming. We're giving a voice to the voiceless here in Trigonometry, Catherine. That's what we did. There are famous teachers out there right now who are working like mad, who are delivering wonderful lessons and videos,

and they're doing everything. They're marking their work as it's coming back to them on photos, on Google classroom and so on. They're doing everything they can for their kids. And then the unions say, we don't want this, we don't want that. And then the parents think, oh, you're just a bunch of lazy teachers.

But they're not. It's just that they don't have a voice. And they're not able to tell you everything they're doing for your children. Teachers, every teacher I've ever known, all of them. They all go into teaching because they love kids. They go into teaching because they want to change the world. That's what they want to do. They want to have impact on the world.

And they think that by teaching little children, when I say little, they can be 15, but by teaching children, you're able to have impact on the world. That's what you can do as a teacher. And that's why it's the most wonderful job. And every teacher goes into it for that reason. Now, it's true that not every teacher comes out of it

on the other side still thinking that. And that is because the system can grind them down. And it grinds them down for all variety of reasons. My other trigonometry interview that I've done with you explained some of the reasons why teachers get ground down

because I believe that the system is, but it's better than it was. I was going to say it's broken, but it's better than it was 10 years ago. I feel we're on a trajectory moving upwards in this country and things are getting better all of the time. So I'm really positive about education

at the moment and where we're going. But there's no question that teachers are under a lot of stress. it's really hard being a teacher and they give a lot to the system and sometimes it can break them and so again I would ask families who are perhaps a bit too judgmental of teachers

give them a break you know it's hard that doesn't mean every teacher is good you know and I do think the unions again the unions can often come in and defend teachers who are bad and you know insist on keeping them in the classroom

I do think the unions do us far fewer favours than you know I mean look they have a role to play I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but I do wish that they weren't as rabid as they are. One, two, a one, two, three, four. Give me a break, give me a break, break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar. Give me a break.

Give me a break. Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar. That chocolate, crispy taste is going to make your day. And wherever you go, you'll hear you. Give me a break. Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar. Have a break. Have a Kit Kat.

That makes a lot of sense, Catherine. We've come to the end of our hour with you. It's always a pleasure speaking with you. It's such a passionate advocate for the things that you believe and you believe them based on your experience. And speaking of your experience, what is the one thing that you see right now that is not being talked about

that you think we really should be talking about as a society? Yeah, well, you know, what I just said, actually, about the state. I mean, you know, I've said this before, I think, in the last interview, you know, we have got so used to depending on the state, and I don't just mean people are on welfare, okay? Here's an example. We just expect the schools to teach your children,

and we've forgotten about the responsibility that we have to our own children. We expect the government to sort out this pandemic, and, you know, if they haven't sorted it, and people are dying well, you haven't done your job, you know? We have to think psychologically, what does that do to a country? What does that do to us when we have abandoned personal responsibility? When we have abandoned a sense of duty. You know, once upon a time, we all talked about duty

and how we had a duty to better the community, to better the world, to go out there and do something so that you can sit on your deathbed at the end of your life and look back and say, look, actually, I lived. I had impact on the world, you know? That combination of duty and responsibility, I think, has been eroded over the last you know, several decades. And I think sadly that has to do with the influence of the state. When you take away too much from an individual in terms of what they need, what they're responsible for, they forget how to be, how to be human, how to live, you know, and I say

you want to be, you want to live, you don't want to just exist. And that requires buying into those concepts of personal responsibility, duty, obligation, behaving in a decent manner, kindness, gratitude, all of those, which are all, you know, sentiments and ideas that we try and instill in our children at Michaela. That sounds like a party political broadcast for the Labour Party, Catherine. No, that's a party political broadcast for the Conservative Party, personal responsibility. Well, actually, I would say it isn't a party political broadcast for any party these days. Nobody talks. You ever hear a politician talking about personal responsibility?

about duty, about obligation, it doesn't come out of their mouths. It doesn't exist. We don't talk in that fashion anymore. And that is sad, I think, that in 2020, we just lost something, and I think we need to get it back. I think you're right, Catherine. It's so interesting the point that you make about people expecting the government to be able to just solve any problem. I see so many people now going, look how many people have died. And you're going, yeah, it's a pandemic.

People die in the pandemic. that's what happens. You know, like the government can't just fix everything completely without any consequences. Obviously,

it's extremely sad. It's devastating. Of course it is. Of course it is. Of course it is. Families and so on. And people sadly always look to blame somebody.

It's the same with the teachers point. You know, why do they hate teachers? Because they want an explanation for why their child can't do maths, you know? You had to get out of that mentality. What is my responsibility?

What can I do to change this? That's what we should always. be thinking. And Catherine, you mentioned there's a book that you're working on at the moment as well. Tell us about that before we let you go. Yeah, we have got a book called The Power of Culture. It talks about all the ideas actually that I was just mentioning about duty and personal responsibility and so on and how we try and instill these values in the children at school and how important I think these values are to a school and to education. And I have to say this book, The Power of Culture, it's written by all of our teachers, we're not all of them,

most of them. And we do say some very controversial things. I am a bit nervous about it because what we're saying, you're not really meant to think, let alone say, as a teacher. But I think it's important for us to move the conversation on from where it's at in education at the moment. So we're actually having a book launch, online book launch on Zoom at 6pm on Wednesday next week on the 6th. So, and everyone's invited. I've been tweeting it out. Anyone can come. They just need to sign up. And there's an interview with me, and I'll be talking more about the book.

So, you know, your viewers are very welcome to come along. Fantastic. Thanks so much. And it sounds like you're going to trigger some people, which is what we always approve of here, Tricken Overtry. So thanks so much, Catherine, and everybody for watching. We'll see you in a week's time. How many discounts does USA Auto Insurance offer?

Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount. Safe driver discount. New vehicle discount. Storage discount. How many discounts will. you stack up, tap the banner or visit usa.com slash auto discounts.

Restrictions apply.