TRIGGERnometry - "Stop Medicalising Kids" - Buck Angel

Episode Date: May 30, 2021

Buck Angel is an adult film producer, performer and the first transexual man to appear on the show. Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.PayPal.me/triggerpod https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin. And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. We've got all kinds of fascinating guests for you today. He's an adult film producer, performer, and our first transsexual man on the show. Buck Angel, welcome to Trigonometry. Right on. Thank you for having me. I'm the first. Wow. First transsexual man. We've had lots of trans women on the show, but not so much the other way. I think that would be one of the things that would be interesting to talk to you about. Before we do, though, just tell everybody your story.

Who are you? How are you where you are? What is the journey that brings you here to be talking to us? Because your story is really, really interesting. Well, thank you. First off, thanks really for having me on. I appreciate giving me the space. So I'm a transsexual man, which means I was born female and transitioned to live as a man

26 years ago. So biologically, I'm female. I never felt that way. Whatever that means, it's a difficult space to kind of tell people because it's like I don't feel like a woman. I felt like a man. So I had a change to fit my space and I walked the world as a man. I got into pornography. I created the genre of trans male pornography 21 years ago.

From there, my voice just got into the universe and I became a public speaker and I traveled the world now talking about my transition 26 years ago, which was a whole other level of transition than it is today. And I also identify as a transsexual man. So hopefully we can have that discussion along the way. Well, let's talk about that, first of all, because I don't even know what's the difference between a trans person and a transsexual person. Sure. So what, for me, this is how I actually explain it.

Now, people are going to argue with it, whatever. But this is my identity and my story. Yeah, it's the internet. People are going to argue whatever you say, right? They're going to tell me my story is wrong. That's the best part about it. So that being said. A transsexual person is a medicalized space.

So for example, I'm going to use myself. I never felt like a woman. I always felt like a dude. I wanted to transition to live in the space of binary male. So I wanted to go from living as a woman to living as a man. I use medical intervention. I had my breast removed. I take testosterone for the rest of my life.

And I masculinized myself. As you see, I look like a man and people think I'm a man. So that's really where transsexual people live. We live in a space where we want to go from one binary to the other, and we don't want people to know our background. We just want to live as men and women. Transgender is now an umbrella term that encompasses every variation of gender. So it can be somebody who's non-binary, even somebody like myself, if they choose to be in the transgender space. So the difference for me is that transsexual is more of a medicalized space where somebody wants to live in the binary, and a transgender is an identity space. So these people are choosing the identity of transsexual. gender. I'm not, I'm not, mine is not an identity choice. Mine is a medical space, if that makes sense. So it's a really lovely explanation, Buck. Thank you. Why do you think it is that it's more contentious, it seems to me anyway, for male to female transition than for female to male? Yeah, that's a great question. And so again, you know, not being a trans woman. I don't have the

same experience as them, but as a trans man and looking at the whole space, it's just much harder for men to transition to women. It could be a physical thing, right? There's some things. For a person like myself who transitioned from a woman to a man, it was just about taking testosterone, growing a beard, right? Going to the gym and putting on muscles and wearing a sweatshirt. I look like a dude. I think on some level, sometimes it's harder to transition from male to female physically, especially if you're doing it later in life, you have male characteristics that you have. People in the world see visually, right? So there's a visual space that we as trans people live in, and that space can be difficult if you're not what we use as the word passing. And so I think the reason you see more

male to females voices out there is I think that they come from a socialized male space. And men are different than women when it comes to everything in the world. So men are taught to be more voiceless, men are taught to put themselves in spaces where women are taught to be much more meek. and taught. So I come from a socialized female space where we're not supposed to be putting our voice in there. So I, for me, when I'm looking at everything and I see such a wider space of male to females in the voice space, I think it's really socialization. And they come from a space where they have been taught to be voisterous, if that makes sense. Is there also another part of this book, which is you are no danger to men in their experience, right? If I saw you in a

bathroom, I'd be like, well, it's another dude in the bathroom. We're both having a piss great, right? But for women, the experience of someone who's a lot bigger, a lot stronger and all of that, they experience that as a threat. And, you know, we have a lot of female fans whose major concern around all of this stuff is the safety of women, the safety of girls, you know, women's sports, all of that sort of stuff. That's a big part of it as well, isn't it? Oh, sure. It's a huge big part. And no one wants to have the conversation on both. sides, right? We have to ease into this. This isn't an easy space to go into. Now, I'm not part of that conversation as a trans person. I'm part of that conversation as somebody who lived as a female

for half of my life. I was in sports. I was everything. I was a very butch woman. I lived as a bitch woman and I lived in that space of female. And it is a hundred percent true that women are still on the bottom of the barrel. It's a real thing. And so that being said, I think that there's no discussion between trans women and biological women where how can we start to have the conversation where we can move into spaces together. We need to hear both sides. You can't just hear trans people. We have to hear women and biological women as well. We need to say, well, why are biological women acting this way and saying they're so scared of trans women? And why are trans women saying, well, that's transphobic. And you're a turf if you do that. No one's coming to a space where we're

like listening to each other and listening to fears because everyone's fear. are valid. Everyone's, but we need to understand why are they and why are, why is this side having a fear and why is this side having a fear? Because there's valid reasons why they are. I hear your approach and it sounds great. It does sound great. But I'll tell you what, the problem that I think we have here is it's not just about people's not willing to listen. It's also about the fact that particularly when you talk about something like sport, but also, you know, female prisons, right? some things that just irreconcilable differences where,

where, you know, let's say safety has to take priority over, you know, feelings of comfort and being accepted and whatever. Do you think, I mean, there are some areas like that, surely, aren't there? A hundred percent there is. And there's 100 percent of people using trans as a way to get into another prison. There is no doubt about that. And anyone who denies that, especially in the trans community, is not helping the trans community. because there are people who are latching on that possibly are not trans,

who possibly are using it to use the system. Now, I don't know, I can't tell you the percentage of people that are doing that, but 100%. And also, yeah, there are people that we just need to have some kind of conversation about this because people are freaking out. And people are saying, wait a minute here, there are people who are not trans but pretending to be trans or saying, and here's the deal.

If you can just self-ID as a woman, what? That's like insane. So any of you two guys sitting there could self-ide as a woman right now say I'm a woman, not make any attempt to look like a woman. I could be a butch woman though, Buck. You're totally good. You open that door, dude.

To be honest with you, Buck, that door has been open for him by thousands and thousands of YouTube comments over the years. Oh, I love it. But I take your point. It's a good point. Anyone can just, if anyone can self-ID, that opens the door to some, a very small minority, but some people who want to use it for sinister purposes, right? That's right. And I'm going to say it right here. And everyone can be mad at me. But that's like the real. Here's, you know, I'm so frustrated, you guys. I'm so frustrated because I have opinions or I want to talk about things. And they might not sound like so great or perfect or whatever people need me to say. I'm saying things because I want to have conversations. about it. You guys are bringing it up with me because now we can start to bridge a gap. We need to bridge a gap there, the gap of conversation. Conversation hurts people's feelings and people don't

want to have their feelings hurt anymore, which is a very weird place to be, right? I mean, we need to get down to understanding why people don't like trans people or why people are pushing back on us or why people think certain things about us. And if we have conversation, and hopefully people will start to see there's nuanced in this conversation. and it's not being hurt. Buck, aren't you ever surprised with just how toxic this debate is? I remember when I first got into doing the show, people said this is the most toxic debate.

You can be involved in it. And I was shocked. I'm shocked, too, and it's actually depressing for me to be. You know, 26 years I transitioned. 20 plus years I've been in really advocating for trans stuff. You know, I put myself out there all over the world naked. I've been everywhere and doing everything. to sort of like just bridge this gap or at least just be accepted.

You know, I have been accepted in the world. People like me. There's, you know, even though I did pornography or I do pornography, people still like me because I'm willing to have conversation. And so I don't understand how we've gotten to this. And it's not just about trans issues. You guys know that. I don't understand how we've come into this space where everyone's triggered, everyone's

upset. No one can have a conversation. We're going to cancel you. Where do we live? And what world are we building? We're building a very scary world. we are building a very, very scary world. Does this politicization of the issue help trans people?

No, 100% I'm going to tell you no, because now look, where are we? We're having me and you are having these conversations. When I can tell you two or three years ago, I was having conversations with guys like you about my work and porn, about how great, just different conversations, how cool it was that I transitioned. Everyone would always be like, it's so cool how you transition.

Now it's like, People are becoming anti-transitioning because they're seeing things in my community that I don't even like. There are things in the community I don't even like. And I'm pushing back on my community because I can't imagine what the rest of the world sees. And if I'm pushing back on parts of my community, what the rest of the world sees might be insane. And you say parts of you're pushing back on things in your community that you don't like. What are these things, Buck? Well, the most important thing for me are the kids.

And this makes me emotional. I'll be honest with you. It does because I was one of those kids. I was a trans kid, right? But we didn't call it that back in the day. But that being said, I know where these kids are hurting. I understand what's going on. But the thing that I do not understand in my community is medicalizing children.

I do not believe in it. I do not think it is smart. I do not think it will leave until I see lots of studies on that. Why are we messing with kids medically? You know, kids grow out of stuff. I'm not saying they're all going to grow out of it, but I'm going to tell you, once you medicalize a child, that child is medicalized for the rest of their life. And why would we do that just to make them trans or to alleviate things we don't even know? We have no research on how this is going to help the future of children.

We do not. And we're lying when we say we do because I look for it. Nobody can give it to me. It's not there. We have research on the blockers and how they can be destructive on long-term physical. But this is such an important issue that you bring up, and I'm glad you're the one that brought it up. Because, you know, my intuitive sense of I was born in the Soviet Union and later lived in Russia and now living in the West, I have an intuitive sense of just how decent and welcoming and open-minded people in the West are in general. And I think that also will apply to the trans issue too.

But when you start talking, we covered a story on the show a few days ago about a two-year-old whose parents were on television and they were being praised and celebrated for encouraging and supporting their trans two-year-old. Two-year-old didn't even have a concept of gender, right? But when the general public in Britain here and in America where you are see that, I think that's what's pushing a lot of people into the sort of like there's something wrong here. in the past, they would have just gone, oh, Buck, you're transitioning. Great. You know, you're an adult, you do you. That's right. That's right. No, you hit it right on the head, my friend, and that's why I talk about it. Look, I don't want any kid to suffer, and shame on anyone who thinks that about me. That's not why I've done the work I've done or put myself out there in the world naked. I did not do that. I've been beat up for 20-something years, my friends, and I have grown a thick skin because of it. But that being said,

because my ultimate goal was to teach the world that it's not what you think it is, and the man walking down the street might not be a man you think he is. And so by opening myself up like that, I'm really doing a lot of work to sort of expose us. Now I feel like we're going backwards. When you bring kids, when you bring kids into an equation and medicalizing kids at such a fast rate with not giving the rest of the world time to catch up, of course everyone's going to say, wait a minute here. And we should be. Kids are the future. And when you start to mess with kids, medically mess with kids, how are those kids going to be as adults. Do we even know? Are they actually going to be okay? What's this thing called detransitioners? Where are detransitioners coming from? Do you know that? I've never, in the 26 years of my transition,

I never saw detransitioners before. All of a sudden in the last five, even the last two years, they're popping out like mad. They have organizations. That says to me something's wrong with the system. And what do you think it is? Because we obviously in the UK, you'll be, I'm sure, familiar with the case of Kira Bell. Of course, yes. We've had Marcus Evans from the Tavistock Clinic, which he was a bit of a whistleblower there and his wife as well. And essentially what we're talking, what you are hinting at, I think, is, am I correct

to say that you think people have been encouraged to transition who were maybe not supposed to? Of course I'm saying that, 100%. Because we're teaching. Look, I'm not scared to say anything. I just want you guys to know. I am scared. That's why I want you to say. Because you should be.

You'll get nailed. I get nailed too. I get nailed too, but what are they going to do? I'm a transsexual person who's been in this community for 26 years. Go ahead and try to cancel me. I'll get more pissed and I'll make sure that I'm on more fucking news stations and more spaces like this and get my voice more powerful. Don't come after me, people. Have a conversation with me.

I do not play and I will not play when it comes to children. I am disgusted that our community is pushing this. forward as if it's just something that we should all just lay down and be, I want to question it. And if I want to question it, you guys should question it. And that makes me say, you care. Okay, you care about my community. I'm going to cry because, again, how are we talking about children? How are we even having this discussion? And everyone's acting as a, well, Buck, that's not, that's not right. These kids will kill themselves. Do you know that you're giving them that language? When you give kids the language, I'm going to kill myself. What do they do? Oh,

I'm going to kill myself if I don't transition. They never had that language before. When we start to put this stuff out there, it's taking away from the reality of what this did for me, which is to save my life. And it's not a joke. And it's not something we should just be forcing on everybody. We should find out what's going on with this person,

figure out if they are trans. That's great. If they're not, that's great too. And then we can move forward. But we're not doing that. I feel like we're just pushing. And when children come into the equation, I'm not shutting up.

I refuse and I don't care. Because I see the future of those kids in a way that I want them to be like me. I don't want them to be screwed up. Kira Bell got screwed up for a reason. And because nobody's having the conversation. This is Euphoria Calvin Klein, the new elixir collection, featuring three perfume intense scents, inspired by a unique orchid accord, paired with vanilla, each with its own distinct attitude,

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And your mental health? I'm from Russia. We don't have mental health. Well, in the civilized world, we talk about our mental health and how we're feeling about our place in the universe. In the words of my uncle Vlad, that is why we will crush you. Well, he's two months away from a breakdown. For the rest of us, there's a number one mental wellness app called Calm

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If you go to Calm.com slash trigger, you'll get a limited time offer of 40% of a Calm premium subscription, which includes hundreds of hours of programming. And new content is added every week. Over 1 million people around the world use Calm to take care of. their minds. Yes, trigonometry fans get special limited time promotion, 40% of premium subscription. Take advantage of this amazing offer. Go to can.com forward slash trigger for 40% of unlimited access to come entire library. That's come.com forward slash trigger. And it's true we're not having the conversation. Do you think part of the problem as well, Buck, is that when people think of transition, they tend to think, oh, it's a little click of the fingers. And then you've transitioned. But

what they don't realize is like you've been talking about, you're going to take testosterone for the rest of your life. That's right. I am medicalized for the rest of my. I hate it, you guys. You think I like being a trans dude? I hate it. But I fucking figured it out. I figured it out. I walked the world. I am a happy person. Don't get me wrong. I'm so happy. I have the most beautiful, amazing life. I can't even imagine I'm still here. But that being said, why would I want somebody to be like this? when maybe they're not like this and maybe they can just find space that they just can figure it out and not have to be medicalized. I mean, to medicalize an eight-year-old, a seven-year-old, we're starting at that age. Why?

I don't understand. To me, that says, wait a minute here. That's an agenda because why wouldn't you want to just have a little mental health care for a couple of years? You know, I was socially transitioned. When you social transition, it means you dress differently. You get to dress like a boy. My parents dressed me like a boy. Let me be a boy.

I was socially transitioned. That was an amazing space for me to be in. And so, yeah, I suffered during a second part of my life, but I did not suffer as a child because my parents just let me be buck. I'm totally all about social transitioning. Then what if the kid decides they're not trans, right? Then it's just like, okay, we'll just change you back to a dress. We don't have to fix, like, everything we just screwed up with medication.

Well, that's an interesting point. part of your story because we kind of got into the political side of this very quickly. But your parent, and you would do because it's so politicized now. But actually, as you say, there are more interesting conversations to be had, I think. And I think your case is particularly interesting because for particularly, you know, you're in your 50s now. You grew up at a time where acceptance of this type of thing was even less than it is now. But your parents were quite supportive, right?

You were not growing up with sort of parents who were punishing you or being. being, and still your life was quite hard and you had some family turmoil all over it and alcohol and other sort of problems, right? Yep, all of it. I was a drug addict addiction, all of a cutter. I was a cutter. I was all of those things. Remember, I grew up in the 60s and 70s.

That's a whole other. I even transitioned in the time of no social media, which I say thank God, thank the universe for that, seriously, because I think that's a lot of the problems that are happening in my community is social media and this attachment that now they can connect with each other worldwide and start to create some kind of rhetoric or some space where they're, I think they're pulling people into this idea that and the kids can't think straight because they're all being told how to think and they're all, and I was never told that. I always got to find my own path on my own terms.

It must be really difficult, Buck, because we've spoken to Douglas Murray about this, where, you know, people, becoming, being gay is no longer a sexuality. It's almost a political identity. Same with trans. That's right. That must be very, very difficult. Walking to room and everyone goes, oh, they're trans, I therefore know everything about the way they think.

That's right. It's weird. That's what I told you, why there's a difference between a transsexual person and a transgender person. Transsexual people never wanted to be anything other than a man or woman. You know, we just wanted to look this way. go back into the world and we want to be a part of the world. It's what I keep telling.

I want to be a part of the world. I want to hang out with you guys. I don't want to be this trans guy that I'm just part. I want to be a man a part of the world. And that's where I actually built my space. Everyone looks at me as a man. Now this trans thing is so huge. They're attaching that to me.

And it's like that was never my intention was to be a trans man. My intention was to be a man. So you see, the political sizing of it, it has made it into a space that is now something different than where I come from. It is now an identity choice. It's a whole other space. And I don't, I don't understand how we've been put into this space now and now how big our voices in the politics side. You know what? That's not what trans is about. It's about finding your space and living life and moving forward because that's what transition means. It's from one to the other. It's not, you're not stuck in this space. So, you know, it makes me sad that we're here because

people never have acted this way towards us. That's really interesting. And by the way, I accept your, you didn't say it this way, but it is a kind of criticism that's quite legitimate where we're having you on and I introduce you as the first transsexual man we've had on the show. But really, you're a human being that we could talk to about other stuff that might be more interesting. So I kind of accept your criticism, but at the same time, we're sort of in this paradigm now

where this does have to be ventilated and people like you have to be heard to be speaking you by your experience. So it's a kind of, it's a conundrum for all of us, I think, to work out. No, and I want you to know that that's why I'm here. I'm here because of that. But before I used to go on shows because, you know, because I was a transsexual man, but other, you know, other things. And they're talking about my stuff and my, but you understand what I'm saying. Now it just becomes like, oh my God, it's like the number one topic on every Newstay, I don't think it's doing us any good. I do not think it's doing us any good.

But let me ask you this, because you've hinted at it already. I take it you're not a fan of the whole non-binary phenomenon. Well, no, I'm okay. So yeah, that's a great question because I get nailed all the time in the community. You're anti-nobiner. Here's what happened. And you know, here's the other thing. If you say something wrong 20 years ago, they pull it out.

They go digging through the internet and find something I said 20. I'm like, I'm like, that's 20 years ago. Find something relevant, like maybe in the last year that I said. So, so anyway, that being said, yeah, what was, I'm sorry, what was like? I said about non-binary. What's your view on? Because that's like a huge thing. I got, so I am not anti-nobinary. What I said was non-binary people are not trans. But that was before trans became an umbrella term. Now it's an umbrella term. So trans encompasses anything in anybody that has a variation. of gender. So non-binary to me is an identity choice. Remember what I said earlier? Mine is not an identity choice. So for me, non-binary exists. If that's what you want to be and you're in some kind of space, you go right ahead. But for me, it doesn't equate to where I'm at. So I don't want to be put in the same space as non-binary. Does that make sense? I don't live under the same umbrella as non-binary. That is not my kind of trans. That is different. It's getting a little bit

confusing here. So let me ask you this in a more simple way. way. How many genders are there? Great question, dude. Fuck if I know. I don't have a clue. And this day and age, there's like five million, as far as. But, you know, the reality of it's sex. Let's talk about biological sex. I believe in biological sex is the reason I'm transsexual.

I was born. I was not assigned. I was born a female. 110%. The doctor saw it. The doctor did it. that, you know, so I was born a female. And the other thing is, I don't like people putting words in my mouth for my story.

I was not assigned a female. I was born a female. I wasn't comfortable with it. And I transitioned to live male. But I will always be a biological female forever. Forever and ever and ever. You cannot change biology. That this is because I look like a man does not make me biologically a man.

And why is it that that is such a contentious thing to say? You know, like you've heard people getting in. trouble people getting fired from jock et cetera et cetera et cetera i don't know it's funny this is such good comedy stuff for you guys but you'll get nailed yeah yeah if i want to get shot yeah yeah and that bums me out you know what i love comedy i make fun of my clearly i'm like the man with the vagina right i'm like it's funny it's hilarious like i love to laugh at myself i love to laugh at my transition i know it's not funny funny but it's my transition and here's the deal like if we don't make fun

of ourselves on some level and we've become so gross and it's just so hard and no one can have conversation with us. So it's just like, I don't, you know, taking ourselves too seriously on some level is not the way to live life. You can't live life that way. But it seems that we are and that we do. I guess one of the questions that I really wanted to ask Buck is do you think now we've gone too far with this identity, this obsession with identity? And if we have, What is a way to come back from it? Here's what I don't understand is why are we having such this, you know, stanch idea of what gender is? And why are we having this idea that biology doesn't exist?

And why are we trying we, not me, I'm not part of that, but why is there a faction? Okay, it's not all the trans. I need also everybody out there to understand this is not the whole trans community. There are a lot of trans people who do not like what's going on either. So I need for you to know that. are a lot of people like me who are not happy. But that being said, I feel as if they're trying to overrun, like, the world and, like, telling and redefining for the whole world what it means to be a man and a woman.

And I don't understand why they would even, that's so arrogant. That is so arrogant and narcissistic. I can't even believe that you think you know better than what the rest of the, the rest of 99.9% of the world is binary and believes in biology. Do you know, the trans community is like 0.00.3% of the population or something. And here we are with such power to actually override other people, forcing people to use pronouns, forcing people to say that, you know, if you don't do this, you're transphobic. How is, I'm telling, I'm actually asking this question out loud too, because I don't understand where the power is coming from and why we think that we are so much more superior than you.

But this is an issue we've explored a lot on this show, and you'll be as familiar with it as we are. But do you not think that a large part of this over the problems that you are talking about is simply a product of the fact that we now live in a society where the more victim you are, the more power you have? And so, and the trans community is right at the top of that list. And therefore, you've got power if you want. don't use it, but if you wanted to, you could be like, oh, Constantine said this thing in the course of our interview, cancel him. That's right. And people would do it. They would in a heartbeat. I mean,

people try to cancel me on a daily basis and people get on board with it for a while and then they stop doing it. It's just ridiculous. But that being said, yeah, you're right. That's why any, that's why these conversations are so difficult that because nobody will talk about it. I'm willing to talk about it because I don't think that everything will get taken care of if we don't have. the conversation. I like to say I like to build bridges. I like to be that guy between you and that community of that. I don't even like to call it my community anymore because it's such a mess and there's so many factions of it that I don't agree with and I don't want to be connected to that. I want to be connected to creating a better world. That's the reason I'm here. I want to create a

better world for all of us. Not everyone's going to like trans people. That's just a reality. I've lived within my whole life. I lived with it as a gay woman. I've been beat up. Somehow now you can't be beat up or that's like, you know what I mean? being by beat up, I mean, you can't have any opposing views. So this idea that we're so sensitive around trans people is ridiculous. And I don't understand, honestly, I can't even answer any of your questions because I don't, as a 58-year-old trans guy, I don't understand it. Let me put the counter argument to you.

I mean, you mentioned, you know, forcing people to use pronouns. Look, you've chosen to identify as a man. Right. And when talking about you, I would say Buck Angel, he, right? But some people might say, well, you forced me to do that. But if I said Buck Angel, she, that would be disrespectful and rude. Well, yeah, but here's what's happened. I'm mature.

And so what happens with maturity is you laugh it off. And you're like, that dude is just doing that to be that way. Because look at me. I mean, it's clear that I'm a man now. But if you want to be a jerk, you're going to say she. Here's what, that's what I know. And I'm trying to teach the kids that. I'm trying to keep, I don't care if you put she, he there, or whatever you're

putting there. People are going to see what they see. And sometimes people are going to mess up your pronouns. People do still say she to me. They're like, you're a biological woman. You're still a she. Whatever, dude. I don't care. I'm not living my life for you. We're teaching, we are teaching bad behavior when we teach people to get so upset because somebody mispronowned you or whatever the hell's going on. That's not the real world. Forever you will be misgendered. Forever. I get misgendered now I look like this. So I don't like the way we're teaching this sensitivity level that's so sensitive. Like it's just insanely sensitive that we, that's not going to do any of us any good. You guys are angry and we're angry and now we're fighting each other.

Buck, do you think part of the problem is because I think society has been made aware and is aware that the issue of gay rights was handled disgracefully for a long period of times. you know, the gay people, the gay community suffered a lot. And it's only until recently that they were able to get married, et cetera, et cetera. And people are looking at trans and thinking, shit, we don't want to make the same mistake again. Let's go all the way with this. Do you think that's part of the problem?

You know, here's still, I've been fighting for gay rights for 30 plus years. It's my community where I have been. And so I've seen a lot. I lost a lot of friends during the AIDS crisis. Like, it was insane what I've seen and what I've gone through with this community. resilient beyond belief. And so we still don't have the gay rights you're talking about. Yeah, we can get married and y'all but people are still majorly homophobic. You know that as well as I do. That's not something that will ever change. I do not believe it. So I use that same analogy when it comes to the trans community. People are not forever going to accept us in trans. It's just going to be this normalized thing. It's not. It's also not a normalized thing. This is an actual condition I have. It's called gender dysphoria. It's not just some. So that's why I'm telling you, There's a difference here between where I'm at.

It's a medical condition that I would have killed myself if this didn't happen. And I'm not saying that my story is the end all be all. But now we have identity choices where kids are saying they don't even have dysphoria and they're trans. So I'm like, what? Why would you ever want to be trans? You know, it's like saying I'm gay, but I'm not gay because I want to be gay. Like what? So I was just going to say, but because you, you, you,

alluded to, you know, why would you want to be trans? I think this is really important. What is the life of a trans person like, particularly when it comes to the medication, the day-to-day, because I think it's really important that people listen to us from the mouth of a trans person and they actually understand it for themselves. That's right. I work with a lot of parents here in Los Angeles and their kids. And one of the things I try to really help them about is let your kid be your kid. If your kid wants to wear a dress, let them. Who cares? Let them wear pants. Let them do that. It's like we're not, it just, I'm, I'm frustrated as you can see. I really am because I don't understand why you would push a child into a space that can actually make them be in this space for the rest of their lives.

It is not fun. This hashtag trans is beautiful. It's not a beautiful space to me. It's a space that you get to and hopefully that it gets to put you in a space like me where I'm a very functioning person and I get to be this, have this great space, but I'll say it again. I wish I wasn't born this way and I wished I was born as a man. So that being said, why would anyone want to be trans? I don't understand that. And so when I say that, I say that's why it's turned into an identity choice. And so these kids don't have to have dysphoria. And these kids don't have to take medication, but they can just be called trans. that's the crack in the system right there that ruined the whole community. Because I remember when it happened, all these kids started claiming trans and they're like,

we don't have dysphoria and we don't need to have dysphoria. And then I was like, what's happening here? Where all these kids becoming trans without any dysphoria said something to me that, oh, wow, this has become an identity. This has become this place where kids just want to be trans. And so I can't answer the question. I don't know why it got to that space. and I find it to be quite dangerous, to be honest with you.

It sounds like your kind of your thinking is very much where we're at, because, you know, the place we started from was people said to us, oh, you need to discuss the transition. We're like, why? It's an issue that affects a tiny minority of people. It makes no difference to the vast majority of people's lives. But then I think, and tell me what you think about this, because this is how I've been thinking about it.

You know, most normal liberal money, people are like, look, you're an adult. Do whatever you want. Get on with your life, right? But when you start asking me to believe things that are patently untrue, that's where I'm like, well, I'll call you she or he or whatever, but I'm not going to pretend that a biological man who has some reassignment or maybe doesn't is the same as a woman, as a female. I'm not going to pretend that they should be fighting in a cage together or competing in sports or doing any of those like or should be in the same prison. So I want to be welcoming. I want to be understanding. I want to be compassionate. But on the other hand, I'm confronted with, let's just be honest, lies. I'm being

confronted with lies. And I don't want to end up in the big camp, but you're, but these people are pushing me in there by forcing me to accept all these lies, which I'm not going to do. And I, and that makes me upset for you. As a transsexual man, I don't want you to be put in that space. And I, as a transsexual man, would never put you in that space. I just wouldn't. Because as you see, what did I say earlier? I'm a biological woman. When I say that and I put it into the universe, what do you say? Well, Buck's totally living a reality. And I will respect Buck. And Buck is a he. I can't imagine that you guys would ever call me she. Probably would never do that because it would be coming from a disrespectful space. Because I don't disrespect. you and you don't disrespect me. I said to you the reality of my transition, who I am, what I'm doing, you're like, fuck, that's cool, dude, right on. That's our connection. And you see, that's the way the world reacts to me because I'm living in a reality. Now we're putting on the table, biology isn't real, anyone can have a sex chain, you don't have to have dysphoria. We're putting all this nonsense out there that is making you go, wait a minute here. The trans space is

not real. And you're fighting, you're pushing against everything me and many of the trans elders before me fought for, which is to find our space and have the world just say, hey, man, if that's the thing that's going to make you a better. Look, let me give you the example of my father, the most macho ex-football player. Imagine, you know, America, like, he's like, he's just that dude, right? You're my daughter. You'll always be my daughter. There's no way. You're always going to be a Laura Jane. He would call me Laura looking like this. I'm like, dad, people are going to think you're nuts. We're like out of a restaurant. But anyway, finally, he just said to me the other day, he's like, look, I respect where you're at. And I was like,

what? He goes, I get it. All this trans stuff on the TV that I'm seeing. Now I get where you're at. And I don't understand what they're doing to these children. My dad said that. He said, if that would have been the opportunity for me to do that to you when you were a child, because I wouldn't have done it. He said he would not have done it. And he doesn't believe in that. But he now respects me as a man because he sees what I have done to create that space. And he knows that I respect myself and he respects me back. So I don't think we're giving respect to the world when we're pushing and we're saying you got to change all of your beliefs for us. And if you don't change all your beliefs for us, you're a turf, you're transphobic. That's not changed, my friends.

That's an ideology. That's pushing people into belief system that they will know. I don't expect you ever to believe that I'm a man. And if you don't want to, that's your choice. I find my other space in the world. That's why I walk the world free. It's a really great point that you've expressed And it's so important because it just feels that we're being driven apart. And to me, I feel sad because it feels like trans people have become a porn in this giant game. That's right. That's why I say it all the time. We're now being used. We're being used in that system to change something. Is it money related? Well, you know, I do a little of my research. And when I start seeing stock market, money watch tell us to invest in trans surgeries. I'm like, hey, there it is. Follow the money, my friends. I start seeing we. weird stuff. And then I'm like, wait a minute, am I, am I being paranoid? So I start even thinking to myself, like, are they just trying to help all these trans people or is pharmaceutical jumping in on it, as surgeons jumping on it? Why has it grown in the last year or two so fast? I can't even believe it.

They're handing out hormones like candy. You don't even need to go to mental health care anymore. You can just walk into a clinic, say, I'm trans. Within an hour, you're taking testosterone. Uh-uh. No, not cool. Not cool. Holy shit. Yeah. This is a question, and the reason I'm asking this question, Buck, is because I feel that, you know, that there's a connection between us. Yeah.

What is it like to take testosterone and what effect does it have on your body? Because people just say, I take hormones, and they just, like, you know, like you take a vitamin pill. That's what I said earlier. I have to inject testosterone in my body every week. I hate it. I've been doing it for 26 years. I still get like a little, I got to put that needle in my butt, like the sleep.

It's a thing. It reminds you. Every week, it reminds me that I'm not a biological man. Every week, it reminds me that I am not a normal person. Every week, it reminds me that this is the place of my life. And I just have to deal with it. It's like having, you know, any other kinds of things that you're not normalized. So that being said, that's what I'm trying to say.

It's like when we start to put. people in a medicalized space, that's a whole other level. There's no turning back. I can't turn back. Look at me. I can't say I change my mind. I'm actually a woman. That would be insane and so wrong. So why are we not adding a cushion? When I transitioned, there was a cushion. We had an actual system. I had to go to a therapist for two years. I had to live as a man for a couple years. Then I had to get a note from my therapist to go to see my endocrinologist who never, ever worked with a man. You know, I was the first here in Los Angeles when this man, he had never worked with a trans man. He only worked with men becoming women.

And he said to me, you will be my guinea pig. He actually called me his guinea pig. And I didn't have a choice. And that was the space I was in. But I don't want other people to be in that space. And it's like, take your time and think about it. Why are we rushing? Why are we rushing to get everybody medicalized on hormones?

That's the part that scares me. What about the counter argument that I can think to? there. We had India Willoughby, who is a transgender TV presenter on our show. And when I said to her, well, if you could have transitioned at age of five, would you? She was like, absolutely. So is that maybe where people are rushing? They're like, well, you know, if someone's life is going to be ruined by having to go through male puberty, et cetera, why don't we get in there early and save them

and help them out? Prove it. Prove it. Prove it to me right now that that child, and now that's one story, that's one story. That's not five million stories. Prove it that her one space is going to change the whole thing. That's her story. That's not my story. Remember what I said earlier? I had a happy childhood. I don't know if I would have transitioned because I lived as a boy. That's social transitioning. So I have a counter argument to that. And I do believe that we should social transition children. And I think what I was saying earlier is I have some kids here and parents that I'm working out. There's social transition. They're children.

Their children are happy. They're playing with the other kids. No one says anything. The kid changed his name to Billy or whatever. And everyone calls him Billy, and they're all in third grade. Third graders don't know shit, right? They're just like playing with each other. We are pathologizing third graders.

And like, two-year-olds, like, are you kidding me? Like, come on, man. I'm going to push back on that. A two-year-old might say I'm a boy. Big deal. Let them just dress like a boy. Who cares? But why are you so, and why are people celebrating their trans kids as if it's this thing?

I would hate it if my parents did that. Celebrating my, what if the child grows out of it? And by 15, they're no longer trans. Then what? Do you think that kid's going to be pissed that their parents put them on display when they were two? I would be. So would I. I want to move on because, you know, as I said about your absolutely correct criticism that we focus.

And what strikes me whenever we've spoken to people, particularly like you, who transitioned quite late in life, is you have a unique experience, which is you've lived both as a man and a woman. That's right. Talk to me about what you notice about the process of being treated as a man and being treated as a woman. What is the difference? You know, sometimes often women will talk to us guys and say, well, you know, it's being a woman's. like this and you guys have no idea what it's like. And everyone's like, well, is it true? Is it not true?

You actually sort of know the answer, I imagine, right? Yeah, that's what I always say. Who knows women better than a man who used to be a woman? Right. So there's a lot, my friend, first off, let me just tell you. I love being a man. It's just a whole other space. It's fucking great, isn't it?

Oh my God, rules. I love it. Are you kidding me? I love it. I have so many dude friends like you guys, just regular dudes who just hang out And I think on some level that made me enjoy the world because I was accepted in the world, if that makes sense, right? So that being said, the question was again, the question was like living as a woman and living

as a man. Yeah, totally different. What have you noticed about your life, about, I don't know about applying for jobs, but like the normal day-to-day stuff that people talk about, women often talk about, you know, there's a different vibe in a women's space as a man's space. Well, there is. Right. There is.

There's 100% is what I told you earlier. I was, I was socialized as a woman. And even though I was a butch woman, I was still a woman. And you get treated different. Oh, gosh. So here's an example. I used to own a 1954 truck that I, you know, and I was a chick. I was a totally butch chick.

And I would work on my truck. You know, I was trying to hyper-masculinized me. You know, I wanted to be a dude. So I was as dude as you could be. And that's pretty duty working on your truck. And I would go to the auto parts store and they would, literally, dudes would walk in front of me. They would push me out of the way. They would never help me. I would stand in that line for hours until finally somebody would be like, hey, what do you need?

So there is a, and now if I walk into the auto parts store, it's like, I could be the first dude in line. They're like, hey, dude, what do you need? It's night and day. The way I walk the world is night and day. You get treated differently as a woman, and that's what I keep saying. The world is misogynist. People don't like women on some level, and people look at women in a down way as if they're lesser than. And there's so many levels of it. It could be a whole other show of me. And I could show you the difference of that and that. But that being said, there is a difference. There's 100% of different how you walk the world, how the way people see you, the way you're treated. I mean, it's just night and day for me. And so by seeing and living as a woman,

I have a lot of compassion for women and I have a lot of compassion for where they're at. And I always say that women's rights are still way the fuck back there. They're nowhere. So now we're putting the trans thing into it and it's making it even more cracked. I'm like, no, trans women are not women. Trans women are trans women or trans women or trans women. See, even you're confused now. I know.

I'm like, what are they? Because it's been inundated. It's been put in my brain, right? Trans women are women. See what they do? They do that. That's like very weird culty shit. When you start putting stuff in and the people just see it, they immediately just start

saying it. But I disagree with that. Trans women are not women. Trans women are trans women. Trans women. Trans men are trans men. And if we take that equation out of there, we're actually doing ourselves a disservice. I don't go to the same doctor you go to. I don't get to have a prostate exam. I have to go to the gynecologist. And that's all other space. So you know what I mean? We don't have the same needs. I'm not the same man as you. So why do we take out that trans label? I don't understand that. And Buck, here's a question. So when you transition, What was your favorite thing about being a man that as a woman you just didn't have access to or was a complete struggle for you?

So no, when I started becoming a man, like I just felt this relief. And, you know, it was like people saw me. I can tell you the number one thing for me was people seeing me as a man. Because if you see in my pictures before, you know, I was Butch, but I still was a female characteristics. And even though I would tell people, I'm a he, they would always call me she. So I understand the misgender thing. It's hurtful. But at the same time, as I started transitioning and started, oh, it was magic.

It was magic. And then when I got my top surgery and I didn't have any more breasts and I could, the number one thing for me was to go around without my shirt on and to go into the gym and to take my clothes off with the other guys and to look like other men. And that really, I'm telling you, my physical part of my transition was so important. As you can see, I think it was so important to me. It was important to me to physically look and feel masculine. And so today we get pushed back on that in the trans community. It's called passing. And now they look down upon it.

As if you're not supposed to do this, you're supposed to just identify as trans and not. I don't know. It's all over the place. And do you think that's part of the problem, this term community, when people say, you know, the gay community? Well, look, you know, there's tens of thousands of gay people in the UK. They're different. They have different political opinions, views of the world. Just because

you have a sexuality or your trans doesn't really mean necessarily that you have anything in common with another trans or gay person. Oh my God. Thank you for saying that, my friend. That's just like, oh my God, a mature conversation. I don't understand that either. I don't have a lot of trans friends. Like I said earlier, I have friends from every walk of life, all kinds of people. I don't hang out in the trans community. I think that's dangerous. Any community. If you're just, you know, stuck in one space, all you're hearing is that, right? So you're living in that bubble, and that's why there's angry, that's why there's a lot of angry trans people, because they're living in that one space. And I keep encouraging them to get out into the world. What's the whole point

of transitioning if you're living in that same space? Aren't you supposed to be transitioning to go live your life. Trans is that part of you. I don't even think about it anymore on some level. It's like I'm part of the world now. I do so many different things. That was my goal to transition to be a part of the world. I don't feel like they're transitioning to be a part of the world. I feel they're transitioning to be trans, which then keeps you locked into this space and you're not participating in life. It's a really interesting point and it resonates with me quite a lot, oddly enough, because when I came to Britain from Russia as a kid, I was having a hard time. I didn't really speak the language. And I naturally clung to other Russian people at my school.

And my parents were always saying to me, we didn't send you to England to talk to other Russians. You need to learn the language, learn the culture, you need to understand, you need to integrate. And I have Russian friends, but not a lot of them. And I've certainly never clung to that community. And I guess what really strikes me about our conversation with you, Buck, is you are comfortable in your own skin. And that's where your ability to be okay with reality comes in. Whereas I think if you had been uncomfortable with who you are, that's when people start to have to try and change the world around them to fit their agenda. Do you think that's true? No, that's an excellent, excellent point, my friend.

And yeah, looking at it, I can see that because before my transition, I was an angry person. I did act out. I did all kinds of crazy stuff, man. If I thought, oh, it was just insane. I can't even believe my mind. It was homeless. I was a prostitute. I was a crackhead. I could go on and on.

I hated myself. I wanted to die. It was like so insane. But that being said, I worked through it and got it. And that was such a long time ago. People don't have to go through that. But there's a lot of anger in the community, a lot. And I don't know what these people are angry about because the opportunities to transition are

literally at your fingertips. I didn't have that. I had to seek and seek and seek and seek. And so, again, not to say my story is more tragic than anybody else's, but all I'm trying to say is I don't know what the anger is about. And I'm wondering if they're being told to be angry. You know what I mean? And push back.

But that doesn't create change. Look at you guys. You don't even want to change. You don't even want to have a conversation with that. You're disgusted with it, which I don't blame you on some level. But that being said, that's not creating change. That's creating pushback. You see what I mean?

And so I keep telling my community, why are we pushing in a change? on people that clearly don't necessarily believe in it. How can we figure out a way to meet them in the middle and say, hey, wait a minute, we respect your opinion and I respect my opinion and let's move forward. That's how you create change by respecting other people's opinions or thoughts and saying, how do we work together to make it a better world? But we're not doing that. And it's a really, really, really good point, Buck.

And it's a really lovely place also to end the interview. It's been absolutely brilliant. Buck, thank you so much for coming on the show. The last question we always end our show with is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society, but we really should be? Oh, compassion. Compassion, empathy, love. Those are my favorite words.

We're not talking about how to be compassionate instead of hateful. And that goes from, and that goes out to everyone in the world. How are you participating in the world? Are you putting out hate or you're putting out compassion? Because hate will not change anything. Compassion will. It's interesting that you say that, but we'll just explore it at touch. We've got a couple more minutes is, I'm all down for being compassionate, and I think, you know, the way we've had this conversation, I think you get that from me, right?

Yes, yes. But what strikes me as odd is the very people who claim that they are compassionate nowadays are the ones that are doing a lot of the hating. That's right. That was my message to them right there. You're exactly 100%. I keep saying it. My community is angry. But what are they angry about? They're not saying what they're angry about. They're just calling people names.

They call me transphobic, turf, all of those things. Can you imagine? I'm called transphobic. I'm like, wait a minute. Oh, you have internalized transphobia. I'm thinking, wow, they're like totally going deep with this stuff. So that's not creating change. That's creating hate.

Do you see what I mean? And I understand why you can't have compassion. When you're getting hate thrown at you, you turn around and have back. That's a real thing. It's what you put out in the world. You should get back. And it's why I try to put out more compassion and love and try to listen. Nobody's listening. Everybody's so angry. And so that's, I think, the crux of what the conversation is here for me is that we need to get away from the anger and we need to start having some dialogue because if we don't, both sides are going to just not work together. And what's going to happen can be a very disastrous thing for me as well.

This actually affects my transition, this whole thing. And, you know, there's a little bucks. There's a lot of little bucks out there. And those little bucks don't need to be caught into this bullshit political conversation. They need just to be getting taken care of so they can move on in the world and become a better person. That's a really great point. Listen, thank you so much for coming on. If people want to follow you and find out more about what you talk about, where do they go to?

Oh, you can find me everywhere. Just go to Twitter. Buck. Oh, watch out for Twitter, Twitter, Instagram, Buck Angel, Facebook, official Buck Angel. YouTube as well. Oh, YouTube too. I've always forgotten about it. Official Buck, and I have some good stuff, I think, coming up on YouTube, so check it out. Fantastic Buck. Thank you so much for coming on, and thank you all for watching and listening. We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one, Or Oraw Show. All of them go out at 7 p.m. UK time. Take care and see you soon, guys.