TRIGGERnometry - "The Police Aren't Racist" - Former Met Officer Speaks Out

Episode Date: December 16, 2020

Chris Donaldson is a retired Police inspector of 30 years and in that time was selected for the Territorial support group and SO19 firearms unit. Join our exclusive community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is a show for you, if you want, honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today, I'm delighted to say, is a retired police inspector of 30 years. Chris Donaldson, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you very much for having me. Listen, man, it's so great to have you on the show. We're so excited to talk to you. There's been so much happening this year to talk about. But for anyone who doesn't know who you are, just give us a rundown of what has been the journey that you've had through life.

You joined the police at 18, right? And all the way through to now, just tell everybody who are you, how are you here? What's been your journey? Okay, yeah. So I was born in Islington, grew up in Leighton to Jamaican parents. Got two brothers and a sister. Very normal background. My mum's a nurse, was a nurse, and my dad worked at Fords.

Nothing extraordinary. At the age of 18, I was in the sixth film. I had no idea what I wanted to do. A guy down my rugby club, Paul Farrell, he suggested that I should consider a police. So I'd never thought about it before. I didn't grow up with any aspirations to be a police officer. Never before that conversation.

And it actually took to all the boxes. What I'd like a lot of times in my life, I decided what I didn't want to do before I decided what I wanted to do. And what I didn't want to do was sit in an office. And I wanted to do something that was, exciting or certainly challenging. And when I looked at it in more detail, I thought, yeah, why not, have a go? And that is basically it.

I looked at the forms. I spoke to Paul. And I thought, yeah, at the time there was a big push in recruitment. And I thought, yeah, why not? I'll have a go. I didn't think I would get that far, if I'm honest. But I put the application form and I enrolled. I got through the application system

and at that point what they do is send the local officer or local sergeant around to your house to check that your house or your family is suitable to have a police officer. One lived there and if it's a good family background if we had done the checks. I didn't tell my parents that I'd been accepted.

I didn't want to have that conversation because I'd already made my mind up. so when the sergeant knocked at my door my dad was very shocked and surprised he thought I'd been arrested because I was the wildly and the family that's most likely to be arrested

because that was that was me so he was very pleasantly surprised that I was I applied for the police the guy came in the sergeant came in And my mum ushered him into the front room with the plastic seats and we'd never have been allowed to go into. She got the bon chino that we didn't even know existed.

We had a picture of the Queen on one side and a picture of Jesus Christ on the other. The sergeant looked around and thought, What a wonderful family. This is it. And my mum went into this Jamaican English that she does when she's talking on the phone. And it was, yeah, I was in.

He was super impressed. and next year now I was in training school. But you've had quite a remarkable career then on because you did lots of different things. Not least, you were a firearms officer. Yes. You said for eight and a half years, is that right? Yeah, that was quite a bit before then.

So, yeah, so I was a probationer in Covent Garden, Bow Street, Covent Garden. I spent three years there. I then went on to the territorial support group in 87, which is primary their role is riot control. and high crime areas. I sent them into high crime areas. I did four and a half years on that.

And then I went to Tottenham as a police constable. I spent some time on a Broadwater Farm team as a homebie officer, basically. I got a lot of experience there. And then I got promoted and I went to Hackney, which is a bouldering. Spent three and a half years there. And then I went to the firearms team.

for eight and a half years. Yeah, I was a sergeant and inspector in the Faramstein. And you mentioned the Raya part of it. We've obviously had a lot of protests going on this year for different things. And this is where we came across you, because what we try and do on this show is talk to people who have a slightly different take to a lot of other people in terms of the mainstream narrative and stuff.

And during the protest and BLM and stuff like that, you were talking about how you'd been in the MET for 30 years, you'd had a great career, and a lot of people were saying the police in this country are racist, and you didn't agree with that? No, I don't. How come? Well, first of all, my experience.

So my experience over the 30 years spanning, and still my experience now, dealing and mentoring police officers, is that the general, the vast majority of police officers are very good, good and well-meaning people. You know, yes, like society, it has a minority who are of racist,

racist opinions and racist actions. But you really, in this, day and age, you really got to be committed and ingenious, racist to survive. No, really, you really have to because once of all, you've got your cars, the cars are taped and recording.

You go into a station, they've got cameras and recording. You've got body-worn camera. Every time you stop and arrest someone, it's filmed and recorded. Now, to be a racist in that environment, with all the canteen, with every supervisor and manager trained

to detect that kind of behaviour, and act on it, and some of them want to find that behaviour so that they can evidence it, so that they can be promoted, you know, to have all that in place and then still be an active racist in the matter. You really have got to go some, you really have. It's not an environment that sustains an overt racist.

It really isn't. And I can say that, I've been there. Yeah, obviously, there are bad experiences. People have them. And I'm not saying it's not. or racist, not like the NHS hasn't got racist or, you know, media hasn't got racist. Of course they have.

He's looking at us. It's not racist. Of course, yes. You know, the way you treated me since I've been here, you know, but no, what I'm saying is, on a serious note, you really have got to be going some to survive in the Met Police today and be overtly racist. You really have.

So why do people say that then? Why do people say that the police, are racist. I think if you look at the figures, and going back to the Lawrence inquiry, you know, certainly the McPherson report. Yeah. He used this word

institutional racism, which has been used to batter the police ever since, yeah? And people wrongly suggest that oh, it's the institution in this race, so all the people in it are racist. And that's not the fact. It's not the case.

What they're saying is that the figures don't look good. You know, people are saying people are disproportionate or not promoted in the correct ratios, whatever. It doesn't reflect the people that are actually in it. Now, you can have all kinds

of explanations why those figures do look bad, but I can tell you from a personal point of view as an individual's, I've not seen that. And I was managing teams on the ground, actually policing. A lot of people who do make comments in the media about

with their experiences in the police, haven't really policed as much as I have. I've managed people. And if I had seen that kind of behaviour, I would have jumped on it and got them out. I would not have tolerated it. I'm not saying they didn't exist. But to put the both together,

institutional racism and everyone's a racist in the police is wrong. It's incorrect, I think, in my opinion. I've not seen evidence of mass. You get the impression that there are hordes of racists sitting in the canteen with hoods on, waiting to go and victimise black people,

and it's just not true, in my opinion. Do you think part of the problem is, like you says, you know, when people talk about institutional racism, they'll say, you know, black people, especially young black men, are more likely to be stopped and searched. Yes. And that causes real, real problems. So going to them today, yes, they are more likely to be searched

and they also more likely to be stabbed to death, yes. in certainly in inner cities yeah so yes unfortunately when you do in these operations to combat particularly knife crime murders you have to go into those areas and sometimes for instance if a robbery victim gives a description of the person that robbed them is some quite often in particularly in tachny and top them that person the assailant is is black within a range range and with a description and because they're under stress they do their descriptions aren't always accurate. I mean, you try it tomorrow. You know, someone runs up behind you.

Not stab you, you don't have to go that far, but just to hit you and run away. And then you told me what that person looks like, under stress. So some quite often, their descriptions are very, but quite often also, they say they're between 18 and 25. Not all robbery, but I'm just

saying. So, when you go into areas where you want to stop kids, stop walking around with knives, or driving around with knives, killing other kids, particularly black kids, you have to target that area. Now, in my experience of dealing with actual complaints as an inspector, and I have dealt with in the professional standards, the complaint didn't come from, they only stopped me because I was black. It was because they were rude to me, or in civil,

in civil. So quite often, if you do, you're a professional, and when you stop someone, I got very few complaints, and I stopped a lot of black people, probably more black people than I stopped white people, because I worked hanging in Tottenham. I got very few complaints, you know, because it was the way I dealt with. And that's a difficult, that's a difficult area. Because as a police officer, and you experienced police officer, you start to build up an instinct for people. So, for instance, you stop someone in a car.

One of the first things you're done, you're taught as a trainee, is stopping vehicles while I was anyway in the 80s. And I always thought, well, this is a bit weird, why am I down on the embankment stopping cars? And the reason is because when you stop someone, you can stop, say, for instance, you can stop someone to say,

right, so your wife is really ugly or your husband is really ugly. They'll go, right, fair enough. If you say you're not a very good driver and you've just gone through it, they want to fight you. They will not be, you can't tell people that they're bad drivers

or they've done something wrong. That's one of the things. So you learn very quickly how to negotiate and talk to people without it turning into a big fight. And vehicle stops quite often are quite confrontational. Well, they lead into confrontation because people just don't want to be told that they are,

they transgressed or broke a law. They don't want to be told that. But also, when you come on to stopping people, if someone's got something to hide, quite often, quite often, not saying always, quite often, they will get very aggressive. And they'll start throwing, you know, all kinds of allocations, hoping that you'll run away.

But as an experience officer, you know, well, hold on a minute. Why is this person so avid? Why is they so aggressive? Now, you think to yourself, well, should I walk away now from this confrontation and they get away with whatever they're trying to hide? Or do I persist? And that can go badly sometimes. But experience officers, no, they, quite often you must continue.

Because if I stop a normal member of public, they're not happy about it. They're not happy back, because no one wants their liberty interrupted or their day interrupted by police officers. And it feels like an intrusion. I get that. I've been stalked myself, you know, a few times. And I can get that. But quite often, if it goes into a confrontation, you're really rude or you're really aggressive, that police officer starts to think, well, what have you got to hide? And they start pressuring a little bit more. Because what have you got to? You might not be hiding, you're just a bit angry. You know, you're just not like the fact that your day's been spoiled. That's fine.

I get that. Career criminals will throw those distractions at you, and you have to, you know, when you're in training, you're trained to look for that kind of thing. So why are they trying to put you off the scent? What are they doing? Why are they, are you now going to walk away and say, well, you've won, okay, fair enough. And they'll go away with whatever they've got. Sometimes they can. So that's a really difficult area of policing, stopping people, really difficult.

area and it's only experience really that makes you better at it. I don't know anyone who looks at a car coming towards them and knows what that occupant, the colour of that occupant until they write up on you. What you see first is the lights out or they're on the wrong side of the road or their registration has come up as no insurance or that registration has been put up in a thing. But you don't say, oh, 50 yards down the road is a black guy driving that car, I'll stop it, because you can't see them quite often. So yeah, stop and search is a really contentious area of policing, but you become better

at it, the more experienced you are, and you know how to gauge that person. It's a very difficult point, but the minority of people, it is the minority of people you stop, are getting aggressive for a reason, they're throwing you off the scent for a reason, and you have to, as a police officer, but, but, you have to, as a police officer, but, The representatives of the public, by the way, you think, are you doing that the public with favour by letting them walk away? Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right.

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It's not an effective tactic. and it just antagonises black communities and other communities as well. Listen, 3%, yeah. I listen to people in the public domain talking about it, and quite often they have no idea, or even the people who are ex-police officers who didn't use the tactic quite often. Because a police officer, an active police officer,

an operational police officer knows it's not always about finding a gun or finding a big bag of drugs. it's sometimes disrupting that gang or not everyone who you stop is a gang member because they're not but disrupting that person's movement of a carriage weapon

so they're not confident in walking around because quite often if you're working in an area and you know the people you see you're stopping known gang members and known criminals yeah and in the old days you wouldn't just you wouldn't search them

you don't have to search them you just know what they were in where they are that part of their day it's not all about finding loot yes stop and search is different you have to have reasonable grounds that's a little bit different but stop and talk yeah is something else yeah because when you got the known gang members walking around confidently with weapons they're not always going to stab someone but they may do when they come into a confrontation your job is to stop them doing being confident walking around

with those those weapons um and that's difficult because innocent people get stopped and innocent people get caught up in that, that war, you know, so to speak, rather like going onto an airplane. Most people are not bringing anything onto the airplane. One of the reasons they're not taking their personal use drugs or their gun or whatever is because they're going to get searched. They're going to get searched. I don't mind getting searched going onto a plane

because I know that the guy next to me or the woman next to me hasn't got semtex in her bag, yeah, because I feel safer. It's not all about the security. success rate of stop and search is what it's the effect it has on the mind of those criminals. So what we're really talking about is preventative policing. It is preventative in a lot of ways. But people wrongly look at that 3% and say, well, it's unsuccessful. It's obviously unsuccessful, which is not.

We need to do something else. And what else, what is the option? If you say, for instance, I'm not going to stop anyone in Hackney or, or more specifically, no black person is going to be stopped in Hackney for the next week. Yeah, vast majority of people just go along their business, no problem. But there will be a hard and core of thinking, wow, this is great. I can now travel left, right and center with my gun, my knife, my whatever, and I can go and do what I have to do.

It's really difficult. There's no straight answer to it, but it is one of the tools that has to be used, unfortunately, particularly in high crime areas where there are murders and stabbing. you know, I think 14 out of the 15 stabbing of the kids who have killed this year were murdered by stabbing, you know. And quite often, they were gang members, not always. Sometimes there were just people in the wrong place.

But all the time, there were people walking around with them. You know, it was nice, quite confidently, walking around with knives. I've been shocked with some of the weapons that I've found on people. Shocked. So, yes, vast majority of people are innocent. Vast majority of people have got no weapons or nothing. And you have to pat them down and say, we're really sorry that you've been inconvenienced

and that your day has been spoiled. But unfortunately, the reason I'm doing this is because the crime in this area has gone up and stabbing's and we are trying to combat it. Which brings me on to the other point that people often make about stop and surge, which is, okay, look, I hear you, Chris, you're an experienced police officer,

I understand we need to do preventive policing. But why do black and brown people get stopped a lot more than white people? I can't give that answer because I just think in the particular areas like Hackney and Tottenham and Peckham and Brixton in particular, where victims of crime are pointing out that the people that they who robbed them

are black or Asian. Or particularly the victims of murders and stabbing are the people who perpetrated that crime are black. You have to go after those particular areas. And unfortunately, when you put a TSD that I was a member of, into an area of high crime, they're going to have to stop people who fit that bill. And sadly, and it is sad,

that those high crime areas quite often involve immigrants or black people. And it is sad because there's so many good, most people are just going on. They don't, I've got two boys and are black kids, yeah, obviously. And one of them got robbed knife point, broad daylight. Yeah, and I just wanted that. guy arrested, he was arrested, and he was punished. But he was quite confidently walking around him and his mates in North London with knives. And if someone had said, you know, the police were out

in that area, that, you know, before stopping lots of people for knives to prevent this kind of thing, I would have been quite happy with it. I don't want my kids stabbed. And the black community has got as much, you know, of interest in not getting their kids' hurt, you know, in these areas. So yes, it's in their interest or in the black community's interest to support the police, I would say, and certainly help the police so that their kids are murdered and stabbed and robbed because quite often they are victims of crime, disproportionately victims of crime. Not a lot of people like that stat, you know, that they are disproportionately victims of crime. So just to clarify, basically what you're saying is you're targeting those

communities because that's where there's more victims. They don't target communities. They only target communities or areas. I didn't mean that. You know what I mean. Yes, we're areas where they're high crimes. You're going into places where a lot of crime is being committed. That's right. And if there's a kid being stabbed and he happened to, and the assailant happens to be black. Unfortunately, you know, this is the sad thing. They're letting their community down. I feel black community. And I feel desperately sad for, I've dealt with kids that are dying. I've had a child in my arms dying.

You know, I've gone to the house to tell parents that their kids been killed. I've been to, I've knocked on a door in Tottenham at the same time as that that person, that child was going to turn up for dinner, you know, at the same, and mother looked straight at me and fainted, yeah, because she knew exactly what I was going to say. The daughter just, you know, skipped away and said we thought it was her brother. and he'd been, and I had to go in, when you're there telling those parents, you know, that their child has died

or has been murdered, it's awful. And they're the people, like Damil Olo Taylor's father, he says there should be more stop and search. There should be more stop and search, but in a more, as he says, humane way. Yeah, that goes down to training, of the individual, maybe supervising, stop if you can, as the supervisors.

But it's not retracting it. It's not because that small percentage who do commit crime will love it. They will love it. And they're the only people who benefit in them, by the way. You know, if you stop and search or reduce stop and search, the only people are going to benefit of those criminals, that small percentage who are just rubbing their hands, saying, now I can walk, I can go from one street to another

with a gun and a knife without getting stopped. Or if I do, I'll just kick off. You know, so that's, that's a sad side effect of crime in London. in a lot of crime. Say, for instance, burglaries. You go home, you find your house burgled. No one knows what that person looks like, generally. Sometimes a neighbour would say,

oh, I did see someone climb out of the window or over. Or car theft. No one actually sees this saying, quite often robbery, if someone is up against you, you know, they'll give a... And sadly, in, like, Tottenham and Hackney, a lot of the assailants are a black, sad fact. So innocent people get caught up in that crime. crime or the police operation and it's sad. It's sad. But often, quite often, nothing comes

of that. It's because the way it's dealt with, the stop, how that stops dealt with. And like I say, you have to, you have to weigh it up against why is this person getting aggressive with me now? Where do you go? Do you go down and walk away? Or do you have to deal with this? And it looks really bad. I know I've been in those situations. When someone's shouting and screaming at you and the people, now I've got their phones out and you're there. You've got your body. I came on. Or would I, am I going to press this? Is he really, is this person trying to throw me off the scent? Oh, you know what I'll walk away. Because that's what members of the public always want

you to do. Leave them alone. They have no idea what they've done or what they're concealing, but they want you to leave them alone. So quite often people do. So I guess the question that I want to ask, Chris, is we've been talking about stop and search, about the divisions that it causes. and, you know, that's perfectly logical. So how do we heal this rift between these communities and the police and the metropolitan police in particular? Okay. I think we have to actually put into context, the rift, for instance. Now, the rift is gazed by what? I don't know.

Survey, customer survey, the satisfaction surveys maybe. Black people aren't as much confidence in the police. Yes, okay, we'll get that. But I know a lot of black people who have no problem with the police, yeah. But I see the people who are so-called representative of the black community up there all the time, talking about the rift with police. Well, I don't think it's as big as people think, yeah. There's many, many black parents who don't want their kids stopped, yes,

but they certainly don't want them stabbed to death, yeah, and they know that the police are the only people are going to be able to stop that, really. Well, one of the most effective people to stop that. Yes, you have social workers and everyone else and doing their part, but the most effective way still is the police. So I don't hear that rift as much as the so-called community leaders, and I say irresponsible MPs keep muting all the time, constantly.

You'd think every black person, the police if you'll watch social media. And I don't think it's true. Yes, there's a suspicion between the black people and the police, like there was in the 80s when I joined. I totally ignored it, to be honest. I didn't care about what people were going to think about me being in the police. I didn't even consider it, if I'm honest.

And I didn't consider it when I was in, because the vast majority of people who were racist towards me were black people. How'd you mean? They were calling me Judas and a traitor, people trying to set fire to me at Nottinghal, kind of all. Set fire to you? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I had an MP who was still in Parliament at the moment who called me a Judas and a traitor. Probably won't name her, but yeah, she still sits there. And so I... Wait, you're a traitor to black people? I don't know. To black people for being a police officer.

Absolutely. Why is that? I have no idea. I still don't understand it, but that's a common name you're called, traitor and Judas. Wow. Because us and them.

It's like, you know, it still mystifies me now and it goes towards the end of the market, it just went over my head because it made no sense to me and it still said to a lot of people, you're tracing the judas, as if black people don't need to be, their communities policed. Right.

As if black people don't need their houses to be safe, as if black people don't need their kids to be safe. Of course they do. The police aren't the enemy. The criminals are the enemy, you know. So the trait of it makes no sense. No sense at all and it never has done. Yeah.

And I think there are, for instance, now there's Mr. Khan, the mayor, has said he wants a increased percentage of black people in the police, in the MEP police, 40%. Yet in the same breath, he calls them an institutionally racist. Oh, what a great advert that is. So yes, kids, join the MET police. They're institutionally racist. Have a great time.

Do you know what I mean? What on earth is that about? And it's a lie, first of all. Yeah, it's a total misrepresentation of the police. It's certainly not an advertising campaign. And it certainly won't increase the percentage. I just hope that they take as much notices of politicians as I did in those days. None.

Yeah? Listen to your own. Take people as you find them. Yeah? And take people listen to the positive. from the police because I can tell you I had a full field, a very varied and rewarding career in the police. And I think it's a damn shame that young black kids are put off by listening to clowns in public domain, who know nothing about police.

You talk about clowns in the public domain. Obviously, you're sort of talking about politicians. And I think the media also have to take some responsibility for who they choose to come on and talk about the state. Oh, absolutely. They keep going out. Oh, it's terrible. Well, you keep telling people that's racist, and that representation is going to go down.

It's not going to be increased. So with that in mind, you talk about the Rift being exaggerated. I think so. So what did you make of BLM then? It's not something I thought it was sad because I was there, obviously, growing up in the 70s, in the place in the 80s, when we had a lot of racial tensions,

and then we moved on, and we got to where we were this year. yes, there's still issues. But we were miles, we were doing really well. I think, you know, you only look at a rave scene, a multicolored rave scene, you go to every festival,

multicolored, you know, the theatre, people were doing, we were mixing well, you know, and all of a sudden, we're now going to answer for the crimes of America,

you know, an American police and the segregation and all the issues that they've got. It's not the same. It's not the same place. You know,

what happened to, to Floyd was disgusting. The man wasn't a police officer, he was a criminal. You know, he was criminal dressed as a police officer, and he deserves everything he gets. But that didn't represent all the police officers. And it certainly didn't represent British police officers. But it almost as if the anger was transferred here

and wanted to relive that wedge between. They wanted to, you know, reenact it in effect. And I thought that was sad. Black Lives Matter You know the actual You know The label is kind of Provocative in a way

And it puts a wedge into People who never didn't really exist I know people are angry about that And they weren't They're definitely not racist They just feel old in a minute Yes, of course black lives matter And every life matters

I know what they were trying to do Highlights the injustices But the main injustice were in America Yes there were issues here But to try and to pretend that we had the same issues as America was wrong. I just think it was wrong. I didn't agree with it. And there was a slogan that was bandied around that we heard a lot, which was obviously defund the police. Can you explain to people? Because I think this is really important, why that is a stupid idea.

Well, it is a stupid idea? Because what's your alternative? What is the alternative? Okay, we defund the police. We stop giving them a man. And let's face it, the police have a effectively been defunded anyway since the, since, you know, the first financial crisis. You know, they've really struggling anyway. You know, I know the pains that the senior officers, particularly Chris, the Dick, goes through to get money from the mayor and government. They've really stretched anyway. So are you going to defund them now? So, okay, what is your, what is your alternative? No one's ever given an alternative. Well, what they say, Chris, some of them anyway, is what we mean when we say defund the police is more social workers, we'll deal with

the causes of crime, we'll give people mental health support, we'll make sure that, you know, that kids who may be growing up in a difficult environment get the right, encourage, you know, stuff like that, right? So I think some of these people think that if you did that, you'd have no crime. Oh yeah, right. Okay, so you, yes, your money goes to social workers and people dealing with a fallout of crime because there'll be a lot more crime. Yeah. That's for sure. So, yes, they're all part of the team. I had this conversation the other day on the radio.

All part of a team, really. I don't know much you like it. The social workers, the youth workers, the police officers, it's all part of the team. You take one out, one element out. It doesn't work. You know, and people say, oh, it isn't working now. But, you know, it's literally the finger in the dam.

You know, you take that one element out, and you'll see an outbreak. I'm pretty confident that in this country, it's not even being seriously considered. No, I don't think it is. You're right. I mean, in America, in some of the places where they have defunded a lot of the police,

they've seen crime rise by hundreds of percent. You have to remember, it's not the normal person that's going to benefit. Me and you aren't going to go, well, maybe not, but I don't know your neighbours, but you're not going to go kill your neighbour if you can get away with it tomorrow. No.

Yeah. But some people will. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? If they've got more chance of getting away, they will take advantage. that definitely. The police deter crime is what it's saying.

Absolutely, because they do. Or not just police, the criminal justice system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is part of the same thing. If, if, when you think about it, what stops you from committing crime, you know? The fact that you might get caught is right up there, you know, and then you may be punished is another one.

That's right up there. Yeah. If that was taken away, the normal, you know, church upbringing, a lot of us have had, you know, you know, Ten Commandments somewhere back in the head or whatever religion that you've got that stops you that makes you treat people nicely might not be there.

You know, people might think, you know what, a lot of police officers say, and I don't agree with this because my mother and my family live in London, one week, let's stop, just stop and see the fallout. That's reckless, obviously. Because we know what the fool there will be. You can see that point, though, can't you?

Yes, absolutely. You will throw the hands up and say, you know what, I know the police officers say, right, don't stop any black person. in London for a week. And say, oh, just don't stop anyone in London, not just black people. And see what the effect is. But we know what the effects will be. And it's reckless for the innocent people that will be affected.

Just to prove a point to a few individuals, you know. So what would you say to these people who, you know, say, defund the police, who spread this message, who say, like Sidic Khan, institutions, racists. What would you say to these people? Well, I wouldn't say anything to speak, you can't. But to the others, I'd just knock it out. To the others, I'd say that you're misguided and slightly naive.

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That's www.printitbig3D.com. I'm going to get Francis a new weapon. I like weapons. And do you think it's naivety because the reality is they don't know what it's like to be? They know. And quite often, some of the people are. police officers who are in the public, I don't know what it's like either. They spend too much time in strategy meetings and meetings doing this. You know very quickly if they've actually spent

time on the beat or actually doing police work because they know the actual reality of it. So yeah, you need to do it. We used to do it. We used to do the ride-alongs. We used to get a local MP. In fact, firearms. I remember back at Graves in when we had a, well, we call a gallery range. And it's basically you put in a room and a scenario unfolds in front of you and you're giving a gun. You don't really particularly need training,

but you're giving a gun and you have to make a decision. And firearms officers have to make split-second decisions, you know. And it could be, and that split-second decision could be pulled apart for years. Yeah? So it's very difficult. And considering that and how many armed crimes we have And how many, you know, incidents of police shooting a member of public or anyone in this state,

it's amazing how little it happens. But we used to put MPs in that scenario, particularly MPs that are critical or didn't understand the process. And after an hour or so, they'd come back with a different view. We're going to put the darkness down now. We're going to have several people coming over. You're going to have someone behind you. These are all the things you're going to have to consider. You're going to shoot that person.

and you're going to shoot the person behind you. What is that? Are they giving up or are they shooting you? What are they doing? Are they shooting your mate? What are you going to do? You know, those... So the selection, particularly for police officers,

in those areas, is intense. And those things are still pulled apart. It's very difficult. It's very difficult. The actual... The scenario of policing and actual policing is very, very difficult, particularly now when you've got body cam,

And every decision, every word that you say is going to be pulled apart in the calmness of a court by several different people, by the media. After your trial of media, first of all, and then maybe it goes to court, but already the public have made a decision or whoever has put that edited, that bit of film has made their decision. So it's very difficult. It's very, very difficult job. But those write-alongs are so important because I've seen a few videos of that type where you have to make the split-second decision.

It changes your view of it completely, doesn't it? He says very difficult scenario. You know, there are a small minority of police officers who are armed, still one of the few armed, unarmed police forces in the world, you know. And we're talking about, you know, Europe as well. You know, we consider ourselves kind of European and, you know, or maybe closer to America. They're all armed.

We're still walking around without arms. And I don't know what their answer is to that, but I think probably more officers who are armed is better. Well, you would have. were a firearms officer for a while. This is one of the things I wanted to talk to you about in terms of the public, complete lack of understanding of the job that you guys do.

Because we talked about this before we started about the London Bridge Bomber. And I remember on the day, someone on Twitter going, why couldn't they just, like, you know, shoot him in the leg? Yeah, yeah. And you go, do you have any idea of what you're talking about? I blame American films for that. Because I don't, I know, and I'll tell you the implication of that.

We introduced a laser kind of on a taser, yeah, and it was a red light. Even before that, we just had a red light and it was a taser. And we used to have people fall into the floor when the red light hit them. There was no gun of right attached to it or anything, just a red light. And they'd hit the floor because they thought, well, they're seen the films, red light hits you, you're going to be shot, that's it, hit the floor. Because American films tell people you can wing people as they're running away when they've got a gun in their hand,

you're told to hit this between the torso, because that will disable them. There's more likely to disable them, stop them doing. You're not shoot, you don't shoot to kill. You shoot to stop them doing whatever they're doing. Right. This is really good, Chris. So break it down for people who don't understand firearms.

You don't understand biology. Right. Why do you have to shoot someone here to disable them? Right, but that's the most, that's the most, that area has the vital organs, and it's going to be the most likely to stop them doing what they're going to do or what they're about to do

shooting a weapon at you or someone else. And why can't you just shoot the gun out of his hand? Exactly. It's a moving target. It's very small. You're less likely to hit that target, yeah? You've only got a brief few seconds or a micro-settlement

to stop that person shooting you or suiting someone else. That body part is the area you're going to have most success. Yes? Okay, so shooting on a leg, people are being shot in the leg, you can still,

before that kicks in and maybe you bleed to death or you, you can still carry a weapon and shoot them. With suicide bombers, you've got a very small, it's a very risky tactic because they could have a trigger that releases and sets off

or if they press and sets off. You don't know what that is. And ideally, you're not going to be anywhere near them, but if you bring a close-up, like the boys and girls on the bridge, they have dealt with someone who was presenting himself, as a suicide bomber. And people thought, oh, it's very cruel what they did. Obviously, it's been, the inquest has gone,

and that's decided it was a tactic that was suitable. But he already told them he was a suicide. He wanted to die. And this is another issue, death by cop. In those far as we had people who really wanted to die, and they wanted you to take them with them, and they would do everything to provoke you into that. Obviously, quite often you'd use non-lethal weapon,

a taser or a baton round, or something to disable them and then you can arrest them because you don't want to kill people. You don't go into the police to kill people. You know, so, and so quite often you're presented, someone like a suicide bomber probably wants to die, yeah? And even though it turned out to be a fake vest, how do you know?

No, you don't. How do you know that's the fake vest you're presented with? So, yeah, I think there was a minority of people who said, oh, well, it's very cruel what they did. But when they actually realized the scenario, there's a suicide bomber, when you can see the farmer's officer realised he's got a vest on

and he shouts to his colleagues, stand back, you know, and he's got to take that shot. If it was a suicide bomb, all those people would have been. You know, the passers by, everyone would have been dead. I mean, as we've seen in Israel and places that suicide bombers are used often, you know, a lot of people can be taken out with that.

They were very brave. And Chris, do, I mean, this is a very broad question. But do you ever see the criminals who come in who get arrested? Is there ever a common theme with them? Like, you know, do they come from a certain background or... Not really. No, not really.

I would say I've worked... I've worked in Covent Garden. One of my first one was Covent Garden Boatstreet, rich city kids are pissed or coked up. To, you know, Tottenham with people of poorer backgrounds. There is no real common theme. I'm sure if you dig into it, you would find some kind of common thing

but I've seen criminals from the wide spectrum or, you know, quite often fighting you or whatever, particularly the city boys when we were in a Covent Garden. You know, I remember two guys through another pub goer

out the plate glass window and sat down and drank their pints, you know. So yeah, we've seen all kinds, but it comes from all kinds of backgrounds. I don't know if it's, I'm sure of this, you know, people would dig into it and find there's a

theme somewhere along the line, but I haven't seen it. And I don't know if you'd have any strong views in which, and if you don't, we don't really need to get into it, but what do you make because obviously a lot of the of the crime is in relation to drugs, right? Yeah. Do you think our policy

on drugs as a country is, is the right approach? Do you think we need to slacken the laws on that and let people, you know, smoke weed without being punished? Do you think we need to make harsher laws? Like, what's your take on it? I think they've watered down quite a bit every the years. I think we used to arrest people for a small part,

a small bit of cannabis. Yeah. And they'd go for the system, total waste of time in my view. Yeah? And now, I thought you get a warning for possession, a small possession of cannabis. I think that the system is already, you know, going down that way to, you know, lessen personal use.

You're very unlikely first time. to be a prison sentence, the rest of it. There's criminal justice system and has already adjusted itself and it's still adjusting itself and it's not for the police officers to make that decision. No, no, of course.

It's for the society as a whole to decide. Yeah, okay, people are... I don't think... The crime is often not caused... Yeah, to feed their habit sometimes, heroin and maybe coke, but to find drugs in the system

of someone who's committed crime is a bit misleading, and I think, because, you know, people have all walks of life, take drugs. So I think this criminal justice system, certainly when I started in 83 to now, has already adjusted itself to the acceptance of small amount of drugs, a small use of personal use of drugs. I guess what I'm getting at is do you think you might benefit as a police force from taking some of the resources that are targeted at dealing with people using drugs or whatever

and directing it more towards people that are, you know, committing violent crime or whatever? Well, yeah, and it's difficult to gauge. We're to start there. You know, the big dealers or the person who's using or needs to commit crime to feed that use. You don't know. It's very complex. Yeah.

It's very complex. Yes, definitely use. The money should be put into, because it's a much wider spread issue than people like to admit, I think, in the world, certainly in the country, you know. And a lot of people just get on with it and their life and continue, don't they? any effect, but there are a lot, some people who do suffer badly and it affects their lives.

But yes, absolutely. That's a common, it's a fact of life, drugs, and resources should be put into helping people. I'll definitely for that. And one of the things that is connected with drugs is obviously the gangs, the gangers supply them, county lines. Do you think, in particular in London, the gang problem has got worse because you started in 83? Or is it maintained consistent, do you think? I think gangs have just changed. It's not going, Gangs, you know, gangs, I was walking down, as a probationer, you used to have to walk alone. So you do your first two years, mainly walking alone.

And I remember walking into Gerard Street and Common Garden, and I got held from behind. Someone grabbed me from behind and held me. I remember how hard it was. It was real, and they chopped someone up right in front of me with an ice pick. Anyway, and then they run off. And I remember dealing with that individual and then people come in and dealing with them and then we asked for witnesses.

No one saw a thing. There were people sat there and stood there with blood on them who didn't see a thing. And when we realised it was 14K in the Wussimwa Tried gangs in Tokyo. They had a vice-like grip on people. They were gangs then. There were vicious gangs then.

They were Vietnamese gangs. There were all kinds of gangs. Gangs have always existed. I mean, gangs of London, the programme, it goes back to, you know, gangs have always existed in some form. The teddy boys, not so much gangs, there were a group of social, you know, whatever they like I call them. But there's always been gangs, a group of people

who have a common purpose to make more money for themselves, whatever, doing whatever, criminality generally. You know, so no, I don't think it's a new thing, gangs. But in context of, like, you know, particularly young boys getting involved, so I used to be a teacher. in Newman for 12 years. And I saw children that I taught.

I was a primary school teacher. I saw 10 and 11-year-old boys getting involved in it. And also I remember a former pupil of mine who came back to see me. And I was talking to him and I was saying, well, you've been exiled from this one secondary school, but you've got a chance of going to this new one. How do you feel about that? He goes, I can't go there.

And I went, why not? And he went, because they'll murder me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that seems to be more overt now. But, I mean, there is peer pressure. And quite often, when you look at those gangs, because I've dealt with, I used to help out, oh, in fact, I was a member of the committee at the Botten Academy in Hackney in Tottenham.

They dealt with kids who've been pushed out of the schooling system or can't be handled in the schooling system. And they were in gangs. And if you pushed behind that, it was the family background that really, this was their family. The gang was their family. and they come from really sad, often sad backgrounds, where the family unit wasn't as strong. And that was a common thing between gangs. And maybe that's become more prevalent, I don't know.

You know, the family unit has been maybe replaced in some people's eyes and lives by the gang. And that's dangerous and that's sad as well. But it's all about belonging, isn't it? If you don't belong to your family, who do you belong to? And if that group of people make you feel loved in a way, then that's what you're going to be drawn towards.

You know, one of the things that a lot of our viewers have been just moving on now a little bit have been asking about is we obviously had the BLM protest earlier in the year, in which quite a few police officers were injured, if I remember, and equally, it felt like it was quite laxly policed. At least that was the perception for many people.

You sort of winced at that. Yeah, yeah. I just know how difficult it is to do those. there's them. So I've been in public order for a long. You know, when you see these things on Twitter, like a police officer kneeling and all, it's not a good look. That was a mistake. Yeah. That was a mistake. I didn't agree with that. I think, and I'll tell you why I didn't agree with it. You don't get involved in politics straight away. First of all, that's one of the things you know. Don't get involved in politics. Now how good that calls, or how much you believe that calls,

you're there to maintain peace, the Queen's peace, as they say. But you're there to maintain their right to demonstrate and people's rights to go about their normal business. Don't get involved in whatever political, and I think that was a mistake, and probably in hindsight they wouldn't have done that, because it actually provoked more violence in the end. Yeah. But I'm going back to emphasise that point where I stood outside in 1984, 1985, stood outside the South African Embassy in Trafalgar Square, and people are going, how can you defend the South African Embassy when in the height of apartheid, it used to give me awful hell

standing out there, you know, all from, you know, they're all so-called people who abhorred racism, but they selected me for my race. Yeah? So they would go on about me. I wasn't defending. I had no problem even then. I'm defending the right for these people to demonstrate and people to go back to normal reasons and people's weird. For the governments, they decide whether the South African embassy should be.

And in the end, it obviously collapsed apartheid, which obviously I'd heard. But if I took, if you turned up to your parade with 44 people and said, right, okay, do you believe in this course? So anyone willing to police this one? No, do you know what? I think you've got a guy. I'd rather take a day off guy. You know, to be fair, Sri Lanka should be independent in that way.

You know, you wouldn't have that. You'd get nowhere. Yeah. The hobby is to maintain peace. Right. And people say, oh, well, you know, you're just, you know, you'd sign off for the devil. You know, it's not your job to take sides or decide whether they, I've been on far right martyrs.

I've been on far left marches. I've been on all kinds of marches. And quite often, to make my day go, I'd always speak to them, no matter what, even if they hated me. I'd speak to them. I'd ask them what their causes, because it makes it a much easier day. And much more interesting day.

But don't get involved in whether they should be there or not, or whether you want to stop them being there. And the perception, obviously, from that is one, we were in lockdown, and two, how did it be, how was it let's develop? Now, I'm pretty sure the people who made that decision made it with a heavy heart or they would rather have no one being there, because that was the law, actually. You know, we weren't allowed to gather in.

And that started before BLM, though. It started with a remembrance service, which is a good cause. But people started gathering in large groups in public against the law. Yes, it was a good cause. But people were saying, oh, hold on a minute. You can do that. And as you've seen in public officials, people take a lead, didn't they? Oh, if they can get away with that, I'm going to do it.

it kind of as a knock on effect. But as far as the backlight, I don't think it was softly, softly. It did look like in sometimes it was softly, softly. I'm sure the PCs or the senior management, public order management on the ground, didn't mean it to look like that way at all. I guess what I, and take your point completely, completely accept that. What I'm talking about is we saw the way that was policed,

however you would describe that. We did see a bit of the kneeling and which you don't agree with. But equally, we've just had protests a few. weeks ago, which is people protesting against lockdown. Yeah. And I wasn't there. I don't know if you were. I wasn't.

None of us were there. But it suddenly looked like a very different approach from the police. Well, the approach in lockdown has developed, isn't it? Yeah. Throughout. You know, what we did in the start, what we do now is totally different. We've seen the effect of letting people break the law openly and how that has an effect to knock on effect.

And maybe they've decided now that this is not something you need. need to be broadcast, people standing by, letting people break the law, which is, you know, no matter how good a cause it is, or what they think it is. So maybe the senior officers, I don't know what in their mind have decided, well, maybe, you know, we need to show the public that breaking the law isn't acceptable, even if you think it's a good cause. So you think it's more like they've evolved since. I think it's evolved.

I think it's graduated. Their response has graduated throughout the time. Obviously, people have other ideas and say, oh, well, it was, White people were just obviously policed a lot more harshly than black people. That's what the public was. Well, without even making a racial, it's just like there was a double standard there. It certainly appeared that way, didn't you?

It's not double standard. You have to take the intelligence, the dynamics, the environment, all these things into place when you police a demonstration. You know, I've been on some very pleasant demonstration. I've been on one that was huge, the Sri Lankan demonstration when they took over the whole of Parliament. Square. Unbelievable.

They just came from nowhere and all of a sudden on a whistle mode but they gave us nice food. It was great. So it was very peaceful. And I've also been on...

You shouldn't have been in police on this. I've also been on a... I remember the anti-capitalist march when we first used Kettling outside the Bank of England. And I remember the... For me, it wasn't at the amusing because there was some...

I think Tom Lipson It was not on that particular day, but for me, the first day before that happened, the amusing thing was how the chief at the end of six, seven hours said, right, I declare this gathering to be finished, and everyone went home. But they were supposed to be anarchist, so I don't know how that happened. So you pleased each individual public gathering or demonstration with the intelligence that you got and the resources you got and the environment they're in. It all takes the factors in how you,

police that they'd be individual. It may look softly softly, softly one way, but it may be that they've got other, different intelligence. And Chris, there was something that I particularly wanted to talk to you about, and this was an incident that happened a year and a half ago. My parents were burgled. They actually interrupted the burglary. The people fled. My parents were in their 70s. They're very old, very frail. And then they called up the police, and then within one hour, the case was closed. They were given a crime reference number, and they went, nothing more can be done. Just to be clear, this is not just about his parents. No, no, yeah, I want you to.

Sort of out. I've had the same thing car broken into. We get a lot of our viewers saying things like that. Yes, yes. Well, it's priorities. You have to prioritise your resources and the police resources are limited. Yeah? So, for instance, you know, that, I don't know the specifics about the crime. Yeah, of course, of course. And that must have been horrified. I know, I know

how the effect it has on particularly elderly people and it's terrible. And when we were driven for figures, when we actually used to go to every scene of burglary and sit with people, we used to be required to do it within a certain time and that wasn't possible because impact on victims are different. And sometimes you have to spend time with me,

you have to have a couple of two with them. You've got to get the scenes of crime officer, you've got to get the builder to go and do their windows. Sometimes you have to be there for hours. But the demand on your resources doesn't allow you to do that. And they've, you know, in some cases they've decided that, you know, a burglary where the suspect is no longer there

has to be reported over the phone. And sadly it means sometimes that a officer doesn't attend that scene and it sounds like that's what happened. Do you agree with that? Oh, God, no. Obviously, I don't agree with it. I'd like to, everyone to get a bespoke... Yeah, of course I would. It's frustrating as a manager of a relief that I had, you know,

that you can't go to these things. Police officers want to do with victims. That's the most, I say this most effective way, no one's screaming a shout, you actually have a real effect. You know, you know you're doing good when you sit. They'd love to sit with every victim of crime and have a cup of tea and make sure they're all right and get them the appropriate support.

They'd love to do that. And, you know, it's just frustrating. for most police officers that you can't. How badly underfunded is the police service? It's very badly underfunded. It's been run down. It's been run down since the austerity drive, you know. And it's come to a point where you can't have all these expectations on the police

and not fund them, you know. And some of the people who are most loudest about we need this, are the ones that are cutting your legs. You know, almost like, you know, Douglas House said, you know, breaking the captain's, the batsman's bat before you go out. you're actually expecting them to get 100 and you've broken their back. You know, so no, it's very frustrating and they have been run down to dangerous levels. Do you think we've been lighter about that in the sense that I think some people are trying to claim that you can defund, not defund the police, but you can reduce funding, cut a number of frontline officers, and yet crime's going to be fine.

No. Is that how it works? No, it doesn't work like that at all, from your experience. If there was enough resources, a police officer would have spent time with your appearance. you know, made sure that it was okay. And that would have had a positive effect on you and your family. That's one direct result of defunding, you know. So you're going to have more instances like that.

You've only got a certain amount of people to deal with a lot of people, particularly, you know, domestic violence, particularly. You deal with an awful lot of domestic violence. You have to spend time with them because that victim, sometimes you look at that victim and they're saying, I don't want to press the crime. I don't want to press charges. And they're really screaming.

Please get this man out of my house. You know, and that takes time. You know, you can't walk away from that. You can't do that over the phone. So you have to prioritise different crimes, you know, with the limited resources that you've got. And it's very frustrating for managers. Very frustrating.

I mean, how badly underfunded the police services? You said it was dangerous. Could you give us some examples of... Well, it was like your example. but you've go into those officers who are policing Black Lives Matter, they're policing, you know, anti-lockdown process, every one of them could be reporting, dealing with a victim of crime on their own boroughs. They're all just boroughs.

It's not a magic box of riot strange officers who are going to go. They're often pulled away from locals, local. And the more of those that go on, the less resources are to deal with burglaries and robberies and domestic violence victims and rape victims on a local basis. So it's totally irresponsible on both sets. I don't agree with either of them. You know, it's totally responsible.

They're dragging away resources. And then they'll be crying, that police officer never turned up to a robbery or the fact that, you know, someone's been beaten up by the husband and someone's called and it took 10 minutes, 15 minutes for them to get there because there's no one.

You know, that's where it comes from. There's not a endless, box of police officers, there's a limited resource that is getting, well, they're trying to expand it at the moment, but with what we've been hit, our economy has been hit now, when's that going to happen? I don't know. And what effect has lockdown had on the police? What challenges have they faced? There are some positive effects, lockdown in particular,

because there's not many people getting burgled, for instance, because everyone's at home. There's not as many people getting robbed because there's not as many people out on the street. Well, not the last lockdown, because I see a, a lot of people out in the street. But those things, so you can move resources then. Lockdown is actually not too bad for the police because it means there are a lot of crimes go down in a lot of ways.

I speak to officers regularly and they say, yeah, well, you know, burglaries have gone down, robberies have gone down, you know, car thefts gone down. But, you know, that means they're freeing up. But we can't spend our lives locked in, can we? Really. That's not an ideal. That's not ideal.

And the police don't want it either. Chris, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. Well, actually, before we, you're winding up to the beginning, but before we ask your last question, I wanted to ask you, I think a lot of people, and I include myself on this, there's bits of policing, maybe I understand,

because like firearms, it's something I've always been interested in. You know, I've shotguns, play a lot of computer games, whatever, right? So I have an idea. I've done some research. But there's lots of other things I completely don't understand. And I think the public on many issues are also like that, on many things. So what do you think people don't know or misunderstand about what being a police officer is like or why police do certain things that they do? Is there a thing that you wish,

if you could get across to everybody in the country that they don't know, what would it be? Well, they're just representatives of you. You know, they're just your son, your daughter, trying to do a job. Yeah, they're not, they don't go to work to try and victimize people so that they can make their lives hard. They don't go to work to shoot people so that they can be, involved in endless inquiries and make their lives horrible, they do go to work just generally to, you know, to get through the day, to help as many people as they possibly can, and to come home and earn a living. But if I would say, I would say anything to the members of the public is take what politicians say with a huge pinch of salt, yeah, because they don't often tell you the

truth. And one more question, something we had the conservative comment. That was very clumber of you, by the way. Just one more question. Just one more question. Interrogation is going on. But we had Peter Hitchens on the show. I don't know if you know. And he's quite critical of the fact that police no longer do as much

beat policing as they used to. You can't. You're just running. You're firefighting. You haven't got time to be walking around you know, talking about in them old days you could do it. But there wasn't performance indicators then. There wasn't limited

there wasn't a huge amount of crime reported over the phone and the computers, that's all accelerated and multiplied crime reporting. You had time to walk from street to street and you know where Harry goes to click around here, I'll get him to his mum. You ain't got time for that. You're just firefighting an awful lot. They're going from one call to another. I know.

I've managed these teams, yeah? They're just going from one call to another. They haven't got time, sadly. They'd love to, oh, if you said to a police officer, please stay in this road today and have a cup of team with everyone on this road, they'd love it. You know, they would love it. But they haven't got time to do it, sadly, because. the resources are so restricted.

And second time round. So what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society, but we really should be? Oh, wow. What are we not talking? I think the thing that we're not talking about is the fact that black parents and the black community have as much vested interest in the police

as the white community. It's all as important to all of us, every colour, that we have a vibrant and useful. police force that we back. No one wants to be a victim of crime, of any color. And if you look at the media, it's as if every black person thinks the police to the enemy, and they don't. I know they don't. It's disproportionately represented in the media, I think. That makes a lot of sense. We do see a lot of that, don't we? Yeah. Chris, listen, it's been absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on. If people want to follow, you know, you put your thoughts out on Twitter

every now and again. Where would you like people to go to, do you mean, they keep in touch with... Well, yeah, Chauden 963 on Twitter is my handle. So, yeah, if they want to abuse me or... Please feel free.

I'm used to it. No, I think your message actually will resonate with a lot of people who watch the show and they'll appreciate you coming on as the week. I've enjoyed it. Thank you very much forever, me. Thank you for coming on. And thank you for watching.

We will see you very soon with another episode like this one or a live stream. All of them go out at 7pm UK time. Take care and see you soon, guys. Thank you.