TRIGGERnometry - The Police Told Me to "Check My Thinking for a Tweet"

Episode Date: January 12, 2020

Harry Miller is a former police officer and co-founder of Fair Cop. He set up the campaign group after being investigated by police over a limerick he posted on Twitter   Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kitten. And this is a show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about. At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts. We ask the experts. Our brilliant guest this week is the founder of We Are Fair Cop, Harry Miller, aka Harry the Owl. Welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you. He say, aka Ari the Owl. Unfortunately, Harry the Owl is no more. Harry the Owl was banned from on Twitter about two months ago. What did you do? Well, we're going to get into that. Yeah.

Yeah, well, I... Oh, you were going to get into it right now, go for it. I know, yeah, I called, I called brave and stunning world champion cyclist, Rachel McKinnon, post a boy and said Strava ought to... It was actually directed at Strava and said, you really ought to check out your heroes when they're posting gifts of the angel of death,

dancing up and down, Maglin Burns, who's just this day died of brain cancer, I don't think that's a great look Strava for your poster boy. So it was the poster boy bit that got me a lifetime ban. All right, so you got us to go off to a great start. But before we get fully into your story, which is an absolutely crazy one, tell us a little bit about who are you, how are you where you are? How have you ended up sitting in the chair talking to us? I'm sitting in this chair talking to you because having posted on Twitter a few people. controversial, apparently controversial things like, I don't believe trans women are literal women.

I got a phone call. I was out doing the shopping at Tesco's for my wife, because that's the kind of guy I am, and I was just sitting contemplating, playing Candy Crush on my phone before I went home and had to unpack it all. And I got a phone call from my managing director at the company I work for. It's actually my company, so he works for me. And he said, H, we've had the policing. We've had a fellow called PC. Eagle wanting to speak to you. He said, I'm not giving him your number because that's down to him and you. But he wants to speak to you. He hasn't told me what it's about, but he needs to speak to you. So here's his number. So, yeah, okay, mate, yeah, I'll give him a ring back. So I rang P.C.

Gall back and said, okay, mate, what, what have I done? He said, are you Harry the Owl on social media? I said, yeah, absolutely, I am. He said, okay, so we've had a, we've had a, we've had a complaining from somebody down south. So, right? Okay, this is Lincolnshire, right? This is not down south. He says, yeah, but they're very concerned about the transgender people in your workplace.

I said, but as far as I know, down at Emingham Dock, I haven't got any transgender people in my workplace. So, well, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You might have, and maybe you haven't got any because you're a hateful bigot.

Like, what? What are you on about? Well, apparently you've been posting things on social media, which makes your workplace a very dangerous place for trans people. I said, let's just back up a minute here. Let's just back up a minute. I said, have I done anything criminal?

Have I committed anything criminal? He said, oh, no, you've not committed any crime, no crime whatsoever. I said, so in that case, why are you, why are you ringing me? And he said, oh, I need to check your thinking. And I said, now, hold on a minute. Just one second. You're a police officer, yep, and you're ringing me to check my thinking. Yeah.

I said, have you any idea what that makes you? And he said, no. So I then talked to him about George Orwell, and I said that 1984 was a dystopian novel and not a police how-to manual. I don't think you'd ever heard of George Orwell on 1984, but there we go. And I said, so, why are you ringing me? He says, well, in case what you're doing escalates into a crime. I said, what, what is it?

How could it possibly escalate into a crime? Well, it can do, it can do. And I need to warn you that you mustn't do this, because if it does escalate, that could be very serious. And already with what you've done, you could be in big trouble from your work, from your HR department. I said, well, I don't think that's going to happen because I am the fucking HR department.

And all the people I employ are sensible people, so we don't have to worry about that. But again, what crime is it you think I'm about to commit? And of course, he talked about public order offences and he talked about malicious communications. I said, but I've not maliciously communicated with anybody. It can't be a public order offence because it's the Twitter's fear. I've not gone out into the street and shouted anything.

So that's absolute patent nonsense, as well you know. I said, look, what's your evidence? Give me your evidence. I'm an ex-policeman myself. So give me your evidence. He said, well, I've got 30 tweets here. 30, right? Yeah, okay. So none of them are criminal?

No. I said, all right, so in your opinion, your considered opinion, which one out of those 30 is the one that comes closest to the line of criminality? And it was at that point, he said, I'm going to read you a limerick. It wasn't even a limerick, as it turns out.

It was a verse by a feminist songwriter. I'd not written it. I could barely remember it. All I'd done was retweet it. And I told them, as I said, I didn't write that. I didn't write that. It said, yeah, but you retweeted it, which means that you are spreading hate.

What was the limerick? Well, it wasn't limerick. It was, I think it said, can I remember it? It said, your breasts are made of silicon, your vagina goes nowhere. And we can tell the difference, even when you're not there. Your hormones are synthetic. And let's just cross this bridge. What you are, you stupid man, is male privilege or something like that.

Yeah. There's a reason no one listens to feminist poetry. Yeah, yeah, it's not going to make high sort of desert island. Yeah. But I see, it's something that some people may find incenses. or offensive, but it's certainly not criminal. Yeah, who cares? Insensitive, I don't care. Yeah. So there's so much

insensitivity all the time. Especially on Twitter. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Who gives the shit about incensitivity? When do we get so thin skin that we have to call the police because somebody's written a song that somebody else doesn't like

and I happened to have retweeted it? So it wasn't even something you said, it was a retweet, and how did the conversation go from there? I say, well, that's absolute, that's that complete and utter nonsense, isn't it? That's just, that's just mad. But he said, no, no, no, no, it's not. We have to do it because we've got to, we've got to take reports of hate very seriously. I said, but there wasn't any hate.

I didn't, I don't hate anybody. That's just nonsense. What you talk about hate for? He says, well, we've got to report it as a hate incident. It is a hate incident. I said, how can it be a hate incident when there wasn't any hate? It says, that's just the way it is we've got to respect the victim. I said, we've already established there wasn't a victim.

And he said, yeah, but that's what we have to call them. We have to call them a victim because they've reported it, they're hurt by it, their feelings are hurt by it. They're very, very worried about the trans people in your organisation down at Imingham Dock. They are the victim. I said, well, who's the victim? Is it the trans people that I don't have at Immingham Dock? Or is it the person that's worried about the trans people that I don't have at Imingham Dock?

Who is the victim? Well, the complainant is the victim. I said, so why don't you call them the complainant then? because of the victim. I said, but we've already established that there is no crime. We've already established that I've no idea who this person. I don't know who this person is. It wasn't directed at them.

Where is the hate? How can there be a victim? Well, that's just the way to say they're the victim. I said, but you've wronged me up to talk to me about my words. Now, this seems entirely ironic to me because you're insisting on use of the term victim, which by direct implication makes me perpetrator. It means that I am a perpetrator. So every time you use the word victim, you are calling me a perpetrator.

I said, that can't be right. You need to watch your language. And he said, well, I'm very, very sorry, but we have to do this because of the victim. So we got into this endless, endless loop of utter nonsense. And then I started talking to him and I said, look, I don't hate anybody. Seriously, I'm involved in a political debate. There's the proposed reform to the G.R. are going through right now.

The government have called upon us to talk about this subject, so I'm talking about it. I'm using sarcasm, I'm using banter, I'm using, you know, fairly, fairly aggressive language,

occasionally like the word fuck or twat or what have you, but it's not directed at anybody. It's just Twitter, isn't it? And he said, well, yeah, that doesn't make any difference because you've just got to be very careful about what you say. I said, no, I'm not going to be careful about what I say. Because unless I've committed a crime, then you can go screw yourself because I am not going to take a telling off from a two-bit police officer who's trying to stop me expressing my freedom of expression. I'm just not going to do it.

Unless you can tell me what I've done wrong, go do one. And then we debate a little bit more. And then sort of as a plea, I think, to the angels of my better nature, he said to me, what you've got to understand, Mr Miller, is this. Sometimes in the womb, a female brain accidentally grows the wrong body parts, and that's what being trans is. I went, you have got to be fucking kidding me. He says, yeah, yeah, I've learned it on a course.

I said, well, I just can't believe it. I cannot believe that there's a police officer as dumb as you, ringing me up, going on about lady brains and penises, and telling me to check my thinking. I said, I think we're just going to end this conversation now, and you can, you can go wash your socks, and I put the phone down on him. Then I went on Twitter and related this conversation

because whilst I knew instinctively that there were, something very wrong with it. I wasn't certain what it was. I knew it was something to do with free expression. I wasn't quite certain. It's been a long time since I was in the police so I wasn't certain whether or not there'd been some new legislation passed and in actual fact I was doing something wrong. So I went onto Twitter, recounted the story and then I discovered very quickly that my instinct that it was wrong is actually enshrined in Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights. And that says that I have the right to freedom of expression,

and the police have no right to try and interfere with me or limit that freedom of expression. So at this point, I had some solid ground to work from. The entire world, it seemed, at the time, went crazy over this thread of tweets that I'd put up about thought, crime, etc. It was quite funny because... Everybody bombarded Humberside at Humberbeek with limericks for days and days and days and days. I remember at one point they put up a fairly serious short video of some guy robbing a liquor store or something like that

and said, can anybody help us find this man? And they were just inundated. How dare you, mischenda? How do you know that this is a man? Report yourself a hate crime. Report yourself hate speech. And then he was all done in glorious limerick form. in actual fact, which was quite amusing.

I tried to sort it out by getting hold of the local PCC and saying, look, I think that your guys have gone a little bit too far. Is there any chance that we can have a sit-down chat and we can work this out because it's all gone too far? I'm very pro-police. I don't like the embarrassment that I'm causing you. Can we talk about it? And in brave and stunning fashion, the PCC blocked me.

And not just block me, but blocked everybody else that tried to contact Humberside Police to talk about it. So, Look North came and did an interview with me, and I remember saying that this is all entirely wrong, and I'm going to take it further, and I'm going to go for the Home Secretary. I'm coming direct for... I'm not blaming PC Gaul, I blame the Home Secretary on this. I kind of missed the mark, actually, when he blamed the Home Secretary, it turned out that the person that I needed to blame was the College of Policing. So we worked all that out and we wrote to the police and said,

we need a meeting, we've got to sort this out. But unfortunately, the assistant chief constable went on, published, I think, on the Humberside Police website, that they were in fact in possession of 30 transphobic tweets, which were designed to cause distress to the trans community and show hatred to the trans community and then the assistant chief constable repeated the claim that the intervention was necessary in order to prevent escalation. Again, no word of what that escalation might possibly be.

So I put in a complaint against the ACC and said, you don't get to say this. One, the only tweet I'm aware of is this so-called limerick and two, you just said there are 30, where are the other 29? And they wouldn't give them to me. They wouldn't let me know what the other 29 were. I said, I want to see them. You're making these statements about 30 transphobic tweets designed to cause hatred,

designed to cause upset, not upset as a unforeseeable or foreseeable consequence, designed to. I want to see the evidence, and they wouldn't release it. They made me put in a subject access request and I eventually got the tweets in June. I've got them here. Yeah. You know what he reminds me of?

You know when you've pissed off your girlfriend or your wife and she's like, well, unless you know what you've done, then there's no point talking about it? Oh, well, I did. All I knew was that I'd pissed people off and that I'd retweeted a non-limeric. So eventually I got through by a subject. access request, which by the way, they obfuscated. I'd not use the right form. I'd not

provided the right data. Blah, blah, blah, blah. All the rest of it. I like, this is beginning to feel like you've got something to hide. Anyway, eventually, eventually... Give us the best examples. We don't have time for 30, but give us... I'm going to give you some of the best ones, right? Okay. So, um, tweet number one, just had my son on from Oxford. The anti-Genny Murray crowd are out baying, screaming and spitting at students who went to see Steve Bannon and barricaded their way. That's apparently is hate against the transgender community. What?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That is hate designed to cause distress to the transgender community. Do you know why? No. Because I mention Jenny Murray. I dare to mention Jenny Murray. And as we all know, the woman's hour presenter is a hate... hateful transphones.

And because I mentioned Jenny Murray, that is evidence number one, tweet number one, of the humberside case against me. Right. That I mention Jerry Money, Jenny Murray. I then have the temerity to ask this.

Is trans day of remembrance a thing then, like an actual one? That is hate speech. That is hate speech designed to cause distress to the trans community. Okay. And then another one is I retweet Andrew Gilligan

So again that clear evidence Of the hot of hate This is a good one This is a picture of Bruce Jenner And I put Dear Twitter Given your rules on dead naming

Could you please clarify Who won gold at the 1976 Olympic Men's Decafalon? That is a great Oh no no it's not I'm just going to warn you That is clear evidence of hate.

Hate, so bad, it requires PC goal to go to my workplace, to ring me up, to have a 34-minute conversation where he lectures me on thoughts and lady brains and all the rest of it, where enough to prompt the assistant chief constable to publish a statement saying that I'm a dangerous transphobe, all the rest of it, okay, because I dare to ask that question. There's an even better one. There's an even better one here. And a lot of this is redacted, so I don't know sometimes what it is that I'm supposed to have said. But I say, oh, here it is.

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So what is that in response to it, how do you? Well, I have no idea because it's been redacted. So we can't tell it. But this would be a really great competition, wouldn't it? What could that possibly say in there where her, question mark, becomes hate? Now, there is only one answer to that, and that is if in that box it says, everybody that hates trans people say her. And if it says that, then guilty is charged.

But I don't remember it saying that, actually. So I'm not entirely sure how her, her, which I think is defined as a quizzical expression expressing doubt. I'm at a real loss how her is hate speech. This doesn't make any fucking sense to me. Of course it doesn't make any sense. No, I mean this whole thing. Not at all. But you get it's even better.

So there are 30 of these, and they're all like that. Okay, hands up. There are one or two where I call Dr. Adrian Harrop a bit of a twat. And I think I'd probably call that woman out in Canada who's offered transing children a bit of a twat.

Jessica Yanov. No, no. Jesse Yannis is a twat. She's not a bit of a twat, right? She's not a bit of a twat. Proven twas. When it comes to the twat scale, she's at the end.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's it. That's it. They weren't the ones that the police are bothered about. It's her. Her. Daring to quizzically question

the idea of the whole trans doctrine is hate speech. It is hate speech according to both Humberside police and the College of Policing. Now, what we've done is we said

bullshit we're not having it we're just not having it so as part of the subject access request I got a documentation that logs my hate incident and this is interesting because it doesn't it's not

it doesn't say hate incident at the top it says crime report at the top and then it says my name and the details and then it says offence, trans hate speech,

and then you look further down, and the category is, get this, crime, non-crime. So there is a category of crime non-crime marking offences on a crime report, and that is something that apparently I'm not supposed to worry about. So, right, okay.

Did he get that? Look at his face. Look at his face. Look at his face. Look, it's early in the morning for a comedian, and this is painful for me. Right, but so crime non-crime. What is crime non-crime? Well, a crime non-crime is when it's a crime, but it's not a crime.

It's Schrodinger's crime. Okay. It's both a crime and a non-crime, depending on who's looking at it. So, on the one hand, this is their argument, because we said, you've got to get rid of that crime report, that crime non-crime report. We're not having that against my name. Get rid of it. And they said, no, we're not.

It's purely for administrative purposes. No, it's not purely for administrative purposes, is it? Because will it appear on an enhanced DBS check? It might. Just for our American viewers and listeners, DBS check is when you, if you want to teach or whatever else, say do an in-depth security check on you. So basically there are certain professions.

If you were to be attempting to be employed in those professions, having tweeted Hutt and a bunch of other things, you would then be prevented from working in those professions potentially. A potential employer would see that you were a potentially a hate criminal essentially. Yes, exactly. Because even though it's class as a hate incident,

it's on, you know, you're a potential employer. I apply to you. You do your enhanced DBS, right? It comes through and you get the form that says crime report on it. What are you going to do with that? You're going to slim my application into the bin. Yeah. You're not going to read through and go,

oh, this is fine because it may be an offence of trans hate, but look down here, he says crime non-crime. So, yeah, he seems ideal. Let's take him. And we said, no, you can't do them. They said, well, it won't necessarily happen. It depends on the whim of the chief constable. Well, this gets even crazier then, doesn't it?

So I've got to base my future career on the whims of a chief constable. It's not just the chief constable. It depends on the sector that you're applying. So, okay, so let's just say that I'm applying for a job with a charity that happens to employ and work with trans people. Would that count? Well, it might. So well in that case, it's, this is a serious thing then, isn't it? This is career limiting. This is proper career limiting. And it's a crime, non-crime. Where's the judicial process? How do I appeal this? Well, there is no appeal.

What do you mean there's no appeal? Well, because the College of Police guidelines tell us that we have to log all reports of hate as hate and give them a hate incident log on a crime report. Sheet categorizes crime non-crime and no evidence is necessary. That's what the College of Police guidelines say, that there is no evidence of hate. necessary to record a hate, crime or incident. Now, we looked at that and said, this just is a travesty. It contravenes all notions of natural justice and actual justice.

So we launched our judicial review in the summer and we said, Humberside Police, you will remove that hate incident against my name. And College of Policing, you will get rid of your hate crime guidance that talks about no evidence is necessary. And we had our two days in court three weeks ago and we're now waiting on the judgment.

And by the time this comes out, there may be a judgment. Yeah, I think we'll probably have a judgment next week. Okay, so yeah, it probably will have happened and we'll make sure to mention it. Because a lot of people see freedom of speech is a right-wing issue. They say there's no problem with freedom of speech in this country.

You're free to say what you want and all the rest of it. But what your case has clearly demonstrated is that if you say something which goes against what they want you to say, then that could have very real implications on your career, your earning power, all the rest of it. Oh, absolutely, massive. And the whole thing has happened outside of the judicial process. Because this has not been debated in Parliament. There haven't been laws passed. What's happened is we've got laws gone through the back door.

So it's a policy spiral as what's happened. And this has all happened on the back of the McPherson report and into the death of Stephen Lawrence. And McPherson does make a link between low-level hate incident and serious hate crime. And the logic behind that is tackle the low-level incident and you stand a chance of preventing the serious crime. And the logic to that seems absolutely, absolutely fine.

Now, what the government have done in 2010, they presented us with nine protected characteristics in the Equality Act. And so if you are gay, if you're a woman's sex is protected characteristic, being disabled is protected characteristic. Ethnicity.

Ethnicity protected characteristic, yeah. Holding a GRC or applying to have a GRC is a protected. Gender recognition certificate. Yeah, gender recognition certificate. You can get a certificate. Well, actually, for something you have to. It's not like a medal.

You don't like hand it out on National Trans Day because apparently National Trans Day is a thing. They don't hand out medals or anything like that. No, no. I'd love a certificate. Well, you can get one. You just have to transition first. Oh, okay, right, okay, there you go. Just to, for anyone who doesn't know,

my understanding is essentially that there are certain things that you can't do unless you go through the full process of having your gender recognized with a certificate. Okay. So it's part of the process of transitioning, lawfully under the law, so that you are treated for the purposes of the law as the gender that you claim. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Whereas if you were just to say, I'm a woman, you wouldn't necessarily have all the rights that a woman might have in court or elsewhere. That's basically, and so the reform to the GRA is where precisely that would happen. They're trying to take that way. Yeah. They're trying to take that way. So there is no checks and balances, nothing.

It's just that you are who you say you are. Just like that. As, in fact, was it Luciano Berger on the Today program a couple of weeks ago? Nick Robinson said, so, okay, if I stand here before you and say, I am a woman, am I a woman? And they said, if you say so, yes. Really? Really? This is absolutely not. That is one way to win over female voters in this country. Joe Swinson is doing so well, isn't she, with this?

Women love that. It's an absolute flipping. Hey, we're recording this on the day of the election. You never know. We might wake up tomorrow in Joe Swinson's Prime Minister. Yeah, yeah, we might. We might. Yeah, we're not going to. But so we've got these nine protected characteristics. But what the College of Policing have done,

They've magically turned them into five monitored strands. So, okay, so we've got nine protected characteristics. Right, pick a card. Let's go for number seven. Not number seven. Okay, number seven, number seven is you're old. Okay, that's not monitored strand. So age is a protected characteristic, but, you know,

the police don't give a shit about ageist insults. Pick another one. Okay, number four. Oh, my God. you've picked sex. You've picked sex. Sex is a protected characteristic, but it doesn't figure highly enough for the police to have it as a monitor strand,

because apparently women aren't oppressed enough. They're doing really shit at the oppression Olympics, and they're just not oppressed enough. There's not enough women killed for the police to be bothered about monitoring hate against women. So, again, try and along. Sex's jokes are still okay, is what you're saying. That's fine.

Brilliant. So your career is funny. Pick it a little on, pick a long. Let's go for number two. Ah, number two. Well, that's it. That's the jackpot. Because that is gender identity.

Which, incidentally, isn't a thing in the Equality Act, but it does appear in the five monitors' strands. So, you have full protection. All you need to do is say, I am a whatever, and apparently there are now a hundred genders, all of which are protection. because you ask for a definition of transphobia of the police and they actually said in court, just three weeks ago, definitions don't matter.

That's what they actually said. Definitions don't matter. And then they move the conversation on. So let's just get this clear. What do we mean as in scientific definitions of male and female? Don't matter or... The definition of transphobia doesn't matter. Okay, right.

Because no evidence. That would require evidence. That would require some. basis and reality. And we've already established that no evidence whatsoever is required to have a hate incident brackets transphobia. So if I, if you say to me that your identity is,

I know, smoke, you are a smoke identity. Or a more modern vape identity, I guess. And I say, I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that.

I think that's bullshit. You can ring up with the police and you can report me and no evidence is required, no definition is required, you believe that I'm a transphobe, bingo, I get another hate incident against my name. I just want to pause for a moment because I feel like I'm in a dream of some kind. Yeah, me too. This is bizarre. This is absolutely bizarre.

And a lot of people watching this will think that this is just bizarre. And yet what you're talking about is true. And it's the same with hate incidents against people of different backgrounds, immigrants like me. If I was to say that in the course of this conversation, you'd been rude to me. And that was because I'm an immigrant. I could report that. And that would have to be recorded as a hate incident with no evidence, no investigation, no proof. And this is Britain in 2019.

This doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense still. And this is why it's so dangerous. And this is why Fair Cop have come into existence. to push back against this nonsense because we see what happens in, we've seen what happens in history and in other countries.

And the thing is, totalitarian regimes, as a rule, don't come stomping in saying, we're a totalitarian regime. They come in promising freedom and equality and we're going to free the oppressed and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the net result is the same.

You end up with a totalitarian regime. So we're saying it, We've just got to stop this. We are calling this out. And my solicitor, when we went directly against the College of Policing, we said there are so many fights in the gender debate that happen at the top of the Jenga Pile and you either win or you lose.

But by going for the College of Policing, we're going for the bottom of Jenga Pile. We're planning on pulling out that bottom one, which gives us a cat in hell's chance of collapsing the whole shit show. And that's what we want to do. We want to collapse the entire shit show and get back to the rule of law as opposed to this policy spiral, which is just captured institution after institute.

They've captured the police. They've captured HR departments. They've captured universities. They've captured everything, absolutely everything, with this gender nonsense. Whereas if you refuse to wear your white, pink and blue land yard, on Trans Day of Remembrance, that in itself becomes possibly a hate incident because you are not showing positive support for a stunning and brave of press community and you get in trouble for it.

And we're saying enough is enough. This has got to stop. Somebody's got to be brave enough to stand up and call bullocks on all this. And that's what we are fair cop and doing. And I can imagine the public getting quite rightly enraged with it because essentially being told what to think and feel. But also, when you look at, take the example of what's happening in London, where we have a knife crime epidemic.

And you think that is what the police should be concentrating on. Well, if you just look at my case, my case alone, we've had a police constable who took the trouble to investigate before they even came to me, ring my office, come to my office, spend 34 minutes on the phone to me, 34 minutes on the phone to me. That's a long time. An assistant chief constable Go in the press and say what he had to say

And then an inspector ring me up when I was in Australia And give me another lecture And I remember saying to him I said, look, I'm part of a debate How do I say trans women are not women Without getting into trouble by the police? And he said, why would you want to say that Because you know it upsets people?

And I said, but that's crazy I can walk down the street and people are upset all the time. If you're a lever and you see a remain poster, you're upset. If election time, you walk down the street. If you're a Labour voter, you see a Tory, you're upset. I think we're going to say it due. You're upset.

People get upset all the time. So why is it you're so bothered about this one? Why is that? He said, because they are a brave and strutony community and we have to protect them at all costs. And we're not saying you can't say trans women, aren't women. but why would you want to? Now, to me, when a police officer says that,

that is a form of coercive control. And they just got unlucky that they came against me because, one, I'm an ex-policeman, so the whole mystique about policing has gone. Two, I'm just not easily bullied. I'm just not easily bullied by anybody. And I have a real interest in law. So when people are talking bullshit,

I'm going to call them out the bullshit, and that's what happened to here. And I said to him, I said, look, if I, as a motorist, am doing a steady 35 in a 40 zone, are you going to pull me over in case I escalate to 45? And he said to me,

we can do whatever we like, we're the police. That's what he said. That is what he said. And I said, you, like, actually to be fair, he says, the traffic police can do whatever they like.

And I said, hold on a minute, that's a massive obfuscation and you know it. You know it. That would not happen. And he said, well, if you don't like it,

sue us. I said that's the first sensible thing you've said all day, see you in court. And that's how we ended up at the high court three weeks ago. Let me ask you this as an ex-policeman. I mean, one of the coming from Russia and having traveled a lot around the world, one of the things I've always thought has been wonderful about this country is the relation between the ordinary public and the police. It's tremendous in this country.

And people don't realize this because if you haven't experienced anything else, it seems normal. But for example, the idea that in Russia you'd walk up to a police, to ask for directions. It's unimaginable. I once did it, I think, in Prague in Czech Republic, with some Czech friends.

I walked up to a policeman just instinctively because I spent so much time in this country and I asked for directions and they all looked at me like I'd just gone up to the devil and asked for directions. We in this country

have a fantastic relationship between the ordinary public and the police. What do you think the impact of that as an ex-copa of this because I see people on the internet going all the time. Yeah, of course the police aren't investigating

crimes. They're too busy talking to someone like, how are they out? Yeah, yeah. And people go, oh, that's just a myth. Well, it's not a myth. They are. They are spending their time. And it erodes. It erodes trust because we don't have a police force. We have a police service that operates

by consent. Absolutely. So we are, police officers are ordinary citizens who've chosen to give up their time and are paid accordingly in order to help police. and make the world a better place. Okay, so it's all done by consent. The trouble here is that the police have been captured,

have they been ideologically captured by Stonewall, by mermaids, and by a political ideology. And out of fear of doing the wrong thing again, very much with McPherson and the Stephen Lawrence inquiry in mind, they've done what Douglas Murray talked about, overcorrect. They've overcorrected. So they've taken a good lesson and they've spread it so far that it's now become a bad lesson and a bad practice. And they're also ignorant. They don't understand the difference between policy and law. That has become patently obvious throughout this

entire process. Because when you ask them the basis of their policy, what is the legal, statutory basis for the policy, they just give you a policy. It's just an entire circular argument all the time, because they don't have a legal basis to work from. And so many of them are too uneducated in law to realize that's what they're doing. And I think even if they did know that's what they were doing, they can't do anything about it because the higher echelons of the police have entirely bought into this nonsense. The higher echelons of the police are signing pledges to Stonewall. They're having, they're having rainbow colours in their senior rank epaulettes.

Constantine's got some as well. Have you got some rainbow laces? Have you got some rainbow laces? He's got some rainbow pants. Anyway, I've got a rainbow underpants. I'll show you after this show. So seriously, this is ideological capture. Now, this is not conspiracy theory.

you just wait until the judgment comes out from the judicial review because everything that I'm telling you now was said at the judicial review. Absolutely. So Harry, let me just get this. I mean, I don't know that much about the police, but my instinct instinctively is that the police

are not generally the kind of people that would be so massively obsessed with social justice and all this kind of stuff. I imagine the ordinary rank and file officer is someone who's, you know, an ordinary man or woman, you know. They don't have this design. Frankly, I'd imagine a lot of them are fairly conservative people by nature, small sea conservative.

Law and order, all that kind of stuff. That's the kind of people that tend to go into the police force. So how has that institution been so thoroughly infiltrated in this way? Because again, if I can relate back to Douglas Murray, they've been taught to forget what they knew yesterday. That's what's happened. We all know the difference between a man and a woman, all of us. We all know that this saying a limerick or saying her or questioning Caitlin Jenner, Bruce Jenner, or what have you, we all know it's not hate.

But nobody dare admit it. They're all too scared because they've been captured, they've been ideologically captured by the groups that are pushing this agenda, which is Stonewall. But why do these groups have so much power? Because, you know, they're a tiny minority. And it's the rest of the British population. Why they have it and how they have it? I'm not entirely sure. The only thing I can do is when you do a root cause analysis,

you seem to get nowhere. People say, follow the money to Big Farmer and follow the money to blah, blah, blah. Kind of. Do you watch Game of Thrones? Yes. Okay, so I think the real power in gamers Thrones, I don't think is...

Spoiler lot. Is the Lannisters or the Targaryens or what have you? I think the real power is in the likes of Varys and Littlefinger. Yes. Who are like free-floating radicals who manage to insinuate into the mighty houses and because of their knowledge, charm, connections or what have you, managed to spread their message. And I think they're the ones with the real power.

And I think it doesn't take many people, many committed, bright people to get into these organizations and they do it in a Trojan horse manner. So they will come in and talk about, okay, with the police. Remember how bad you got it wrong with McPherson, with Stephen Lawrence? Oh, God, yeah, yeah. Remember how bad you got it wrong with the gays? Oh, my God, yeah, yeah. Right, okay.

Well, we are the LGBT organization, right? And we can sort out your policies. We'll sort all that out for you. And they are, yeah, fantastic, fantastic. Yeah, we'll do that. Yeah, great. We'll publicise that you're really pro-LGB and all this sort of stuff and pro-race and we'll sort it all out for you.

And they go in and they write the document and the first several pages are great. And then towards the back, they stick in a whole bunch of stuff about gender identity, which is not based in law. It simply isn't based in law. So you have a policy spiral that has been insinuated into policy. And then he's signed off and that's it. It's law by the back door is what it is. And again, we have proof of this because we've done freedom of information requests.

I've got police officers in a number of forces who work with Faircop and who will log us into their internet, etc. and you'll look at documentation, an internal documentation. For instance, an internal documentation that says how to treat trans prisoners. So it says, this is in the Met, a trans prisoner has to be searched by the gender of their choosing. They're choosing. What if their gender is not available? What if smoke gender isn't around? Yeah, exactly, exactly.

If smoke gender is not available, you're screwed. Or let's just take it down to the right. real basics. You've been arrested on a Saturday night. You're hired as a flipping kite. They think you've possibly got a wrap of drugs around your belly. I told you this in private. Edit that out.

You've got we think you've got a wrap of something around your bell end. You're there and you're in the custody suite and there's a big old sergeant who's about to give you a thorough searching. And with him he's got two female officers as well.

All you need to do is say, I'm a woman. And the policy says that that sergeant has to now direct a female officer to search your bell end and give you an intimate search. So what's happening is there is a facilitation of sexual assault going on, which is why the police are so up in arms. And they don't say, because you read the document that it says any questioning of this is transphobic. and all transphobia, there must be zero tolerance to transphobia. Why? Because of Stephen Lawrence. Because of the McPherson reports.

Because if you don't buy the whole thing, it means that you're a racist, bastard, you know, Jew-hating, gay-hating, whatever, and there's no place for you in the police force. So it's a classic... Finally somebody's nailed Constantine. So it's classic, classic Trojan horse tactic

is what's going on. Yeah. And next year, year 2020 is when we're going to be we off air cop we're going to be challenging this we're going to have a word with the police and say look hopefully we've beaten you up once you really don't want to go to war with us again can we have a gentlemanly chat with our lawyers and your people and let me explain to you how you've been ideologically captured so that we don't have to have a big face off a judicial review again let's let's see if we can sort it out that's that's the plan

That's the plan. The average copper working in the police force, who are decent people who just want to go into the police force because they believe in it, they believe in law and order, they want to help society. I mean, they must be absolutely outraged by this. Yeah, they're outraged, they're pissed off, they can't believe it, but they have to do it

because their jobs are on the line, because any form of dissent is evidence, de facto evidence of transphobia. And that's why they have the hashtag, no debate. Have you seen that on Twitter? No debate? No debate. If you go on the LGBT police websites, of which there are hundreds, Stonewall, any of the trans rights activists, they will often use the hashtag, no debate.

So it will make a statement, trans women are women, hashtag no debate. So the logic behind that is that if you debate it and don't simply accept it, you are a hateful trans. And we will not, in the same way that we will not debate racists, we will not debate hateful transphobes. But of course, a transphobe is somebody who does not believe in, it doesn't go along. Huckline and sinker with the I am what I say I am narrative. Well, we had the Rose of Dawn, the transsexual woman who is a YouTuber on the show recently. And one of the things she told us is that trans women like her,

who say that biologically, despite her transition, she's still male biologically, have been banned from Twitter for saying that they themselves are biologically male. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. But there is no, there is no debate at all. You cannot, you cannot budge an inch from the narrative,

from the ideological narrative. Otherwise, regardless that you're a trans woman, you're a hateful trans woman, and you're not a real trans woman. and no debate, you need deplatforming. We can't hear your voice. The same with the people

that have detransitioned. We don't want to hear about detransitioners because it challenges the narrative. There is only one narrative. You're born in the wrong body. You know that from an early age.

Your lady brain accidentally grew a penis and it is now society's responsibility for all of us to correct that through hormones, surgery, pronouns, positive reinforcement. And hashtag, no debate.

That's it. And we're saying, hashtag, screw you, is what we're saying. So you see, with that, I mean, I personally, my opinion is that there is such a thing as gender dysphoria. And there are people who experience it. But there will be people who don't agree with that, which is all fine. I mean, it's the lack of the ability to have the conversation that scares me. And what you're talking about, we know about this from my interview with the Posey, Parker, the big tech companies are enforcing this stuff, right? We had a video taken down for

hate speech and then eventually due to a public outcry was reinstated. But fundamentally, the big tech companies are all terrified. But what you're talking about is the police. And I just want to remind people what the police are. They're the arm of the state that is allowed to use violence and imprison people. Yes. They are enforcing this ideology. Yes. They are enforcing this ideology. which is why it requires brave outspoken people to stand up and say, this can't happen. It just cannot happen. Somebody has got to stand up and stop the policy spiral.

And unfortunately, the only way to do that really is through direct challenge and judicial review, which is incredibly expensive. Doing this, I put at risk, around about 150 to 200,000 to do this. That is outside the possibility of the vast majority of people to do. It's just that I've got a, you know, I've got a business. You're fucking loaded. I'm not, I'm like, I'm only called asset rich and fucking cash strapped. Well, you are now, aren't you?

Yes. But, yeah, I mean, thankfully, we've had so much support. We've got, I think, close on £60,000 in the crowd justice fund. I've got another $25,000, $25,000, sorry, pledged in case we lose and it has to go up to the Supreme Court. So people care, people really, really care about this. And they care because there are so many people who agree,

including police officers, including government ministers, including lords. And they don't say, because their careers are on the line. Now, again, talking about Douglas Murray again, he talks about how this, over most people, there is a, what do you call it, a wobbly pyramid. Yes. A very wobbly hierarchy. Yeah, a wobbly hierarchy pyramid.

And if you're scared of that falling down and crushing you, that's very serious because you lose your job, you lose your house, you know, you lose your security. It's terrifying. And so those of us who are in a position to stand up and say, hashtag screw you, There is a disproportionate responsibility on us to do that. And that's why, you know, you asked me initially why I'm here. It's because I feel a sense of that disproportionate responsibility. And I'm just not the kind of person to lay down and take it from some two-bit police officer

and a two-bit force like Humberbeat and operating on two-bit guidelines issued by the College of Police. That's just it. Picture the two of you, sitting side by side, a Mai Tai in your hands, and the sounds of Hawaii around you. You almost forget you're on a plane. And that's the point, because when you fly with Hawaiian Airlines, it's hard to tell where your flight ends and vacation begins. Hawaii starts here. And Harry, right, so this is where we are. We're at the end of 2019.

if we don't stop and if we don't stand up what do you think will happen? I know predictions are always you know some pointless but what do you think will be the end game?

What do you think? We're all being a position where we have a gendered theocracy where it will be where expressing disbelief in gender ideology will be exactly the same as it is in a place like Iran

in the Middle Ages, dark ages, whatever, where if you don't believe in the unsubstantiated, unscientific, pre-enlightenment claims, then you're guilty of a crime.

And I think your access to public life will be shut down. I mean, that's already here with this, you know, with the enhanced, the enhanced DBS check thing is super, super serious, we would say. You know, you're a, you've, you've said something on Twitter that, um,

somebody, without any evidence has decided to report, you end up with a hate incident, it's your name, which can be then revealed on an enhanced DBS check, which means your career is going nowhere. That's the case anyway. Yeah, I find that terrifying.

Whichever side of the debate you're on. If you dance with the devil because you happen to like the tune today, you need to be very, very careful because that tune's going to change and you're going to be the one who's going to end up in the wrong thing, clink, at some point.

And that's why regardless, all right-minded people, I think, need to support we are fair cop. Because we're for the rule of law, for the rule of debate. We are post-enlightenment. We believe in science. We believe in biology. We're quite happy to debate people with crazy existential post-modern views. You know, we don't hate somebody that thinks a trans woman is a woman. I'd happily sit down and have that debate with them.

and go out and have a pint with them afterwards. It's not about hate, it's about having the ability to talk about really difficult, really difficult issues, actually. And we should be able to do that without the police trampling all over our Article 10 rights and telling us that we can't debate

in things which they already concede are entirely legal to debate about. And also we have this entire issue that, Schedule 6, I think it is, or Schedule 1 of the Code of Ethics, says that the police must not be political, nor can they give the impression of being political. Now, when a police officer takes a particular side during a particular debate, which is heading to, you know, through Parliament, that is an entire, that is an utter breach of their Code of Ethics.

They're not allowed to do that. You cannot, you cannot. There's only one thing a police officer should do when the debate gets political, and that is to take a massive whopping public step back. And they're not doing it. They've taken aside. There are police forces actively promoting reform to the GRA,

actively, actively saying that the old GRA is outdated and cruel and needs reform. They are acting as though reformed to the GRA, as already happened. In other words, they are treating gender identity as being a protected characteristic in law. And it isn't. It isn't.

And that's dangerous. When the police start acting as a result of crazy ideological policy spiral, we need to have a sense check and go, okay, let's go back to first principles, the principle of law, principles of free speech, that in this country under common law, we are allowed to do and say anything unless the government specifically tells us that we can't.

We are a free people, we're not a bound people. And I think we need to get back to these first principles and just say, hold on a minute, this ain't happening under my watch. And we've got groups all over the country now springing up. We've got university challenged, Professor Kathleen Stock and Rachel Ayer, who are challenging

the no platforming at universities. We're about to launch in the new year fair higher education with Dr. Louise Moody. And the thing that I really want to get into is the, I want to get into Stonewall. And, you know, Stonewall can do what they like, but I want to break the capture of Stonewall into the important institutions which govern all our lives.

Particularly HR departments, because I looked around, I was at a restaurant a few weeks ago. A very busy restaurant. I looked around and said, you know, I was there with Posi Parker, actually. And I said, how many people do you reckon there are in this room who've been, had a knock on the door from the thought police? And we said, probably two of, maybe three. There was at least two of us because of Posey and I there. Maybe three.

I mean, that's a problematic dinner, isn't it? Absolutely. And then I said, okay, so how many people do you think there are in this restaurant who are shit scared of their HR departments? And we reckon 80, 90% of people. 8 to 9% people are shit scared of their HR departments because when it's transgender day if you don't wear the pink, blue and white line yard to show your support, you're marked out.

If you don't wear your rainbow laces, you're marked out. If you don't go along entirely with this absolute nonsense which has no basis in law whatsoever, you're marked out. So that's where we're heading. We've got some big fights lined up. Before we ask you our last question, how can people help with what you're doing at We're Faircop? We have Faircop.

You need to follow us on Twitter, which is at We Are Faircop. Go on to the website, which is faircop.org. You can donate, your followers, write to us. Eventually we'll have things like mugs and t-shirts. We haven't got them at the minute.

But yeah, just get in touch. Follow us on Twitter. Brilliant stuff. And the last question that we always ask, and we always close our interviews, Constantine, take it away? What's the one thing no one's talking about that we ought to be talking about?

I've alluded to it already, but it's how shit the rainbow is. How absolutely shit the rainbow is. The rainbow, that rainbow symbol, which used to be a great symbol of hope for lesbians, gays and by people, I now equate it to, I think it's so corrupted

then I now equate it to a swastika. Well, that shouldn't upset you. That's not going to trigger people. To me, to me, it has the same visceral reaction because it speaks of an ideology, which I think is insidious, dangerous, and which is just sweeping through organizations. Breathe, Francis.

If that sound you can hear, is the internet going into fucking meltdown. People tee on their keyboards tweeting. Right, and on that note, people can't find you on Twitter, Harry, but can they find you on... I can see why. Can they find you on Facebook, Instagram? Yeah, they can find... Yeah, if they look for Harry Miller, they'll find Fair Cop.

Find us on Twitter. Twitter's the best place, really. Oh, Fair Cop on Twitter. Is it at Fair Cop, I take it? On Twitter, it's We Are Fair Cop. Perfect stuff. All right, and don't send them any rainbows. All right guys, thanks very much for watching.

We'll see you in a week from now with a possibly slightly less drinking rem. So who knows? It could be more triggering. See in a week. Absolutely, take care. Bye-bye.