TRIGGERnometry - The Reality of South Africa's Farm Murders - Rob Hersov

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Rob Hersov is a South African entrepreneur, investor, and businessman. He is known for his outspoken views on South African politics and business, often criticizing the ruling African National Congress (ANC) government. | SPONSOR. We use Ground News to escape the echo chamber and stay fully informed. Go to https://ground.news/triggernometry to save 40% on the Ground News unlimited access Vantage plan. SPONSOR. Shopify! Sign up for a £1 per month trial at https://www.shopify.co.uk/trigger/ Follow Rob on X - https://x.com/RobertHersov Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Substack! https://triggernometry.substack.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Shop Merch here - https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. 00:00 Introduction 06:04 Nelson Mandela 09:30 The Racial Breakdown Of South Africa 11:13 What's Going On With The Politics Of The ANC? 19:40 The Race Based Laws In South Africa 28:49 How Much Of This Is Down To Blame Placed On White People? 35:06 Is There Going To Be A Refugee Crisis With South Africa? 38:07 Racial Quotas For Sport 43:15 Where Is This Headed? 49:24 How Much Of This Is Cultural? 01:02:06 The ANC And Its Links To Iran 01:06:17 The Soviet Communist Infiltration 01:10:15 What's The One Thing We're Not Talking About That We Should Be? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There are two farm attacks every day in South Africa, two murders of farmers every week. Being a South African farmer is the most dangerous profession in South Africa. Julius Millama of the economic freedom fighters. This is the kill the boor game. Right. Yeah. Has been jumping up and down in stadiums filled of 100,000 people,

all wearing red berets, shouting and singing, kill the boer, kill the farmer. We will slit the throat of whiteness. Where is this headed? It's headed into the abyss. Rob Herzoghrenov, welcome to Trigonometry. Constantine, Francis. What an honor to be here, it really is.

It's a treat. I've always wanted to be on your show, and here I am. Well, here you are. And for sad reasons, unfortunately, because what's happening in your country in South Africa is really shocked the world. There was a big showdown in the White House with Donald Trump.

And we've been meaning to talk about this issue for a long time. We both know people have friends, fans of the show, who are South African, who've told us various things that are going on. But first and foremost, I think, forgive me for saying it in this kind of crude way, but I think apartheid happened, and then it kind of got sorted out, as people might think. And then I think most of the rest of the world kind of forgot about South Africa, truthfully, and didn't really pay much attention.

And now people are paying attention because terrible things are happening. So can you just talk to us about the history of the country, how it got to where it's got to, why are we here and why are we having this conversation? So South Africa was founded as a country, formed as a country in 1910, the Union of South Africa. And prior to that, very quick history, the other than the Portuguese who arrived but didn't stay, the Dutch arrived, the Dutch East India Corporation arrived in 1652 in the Cape and set it up as a trading station for their boats going to India. And they didn't meet any black tribes in the Cape. There were the Hottentots or the Strantlopers, the beachwalkers who were itinerant, a very ancient civilization. And they settled,

the Dutch settled there and basically moved inland, the Great Trek. And at the Fish River, 600 kilometers from Cape Town was the first time they met the black tribes of Africa. The white tribe Africa, met the black tribes of Africa. And that's when cooperation, trade, and wars began. And as the Dutch moved inland on this great trek to get away from British rule that had arrived, they encountered various different black tribes along the way. And in some cases they fought, in other cases they made peace, bought land, traded, and moved on.

And then gold was discovered, and everybody poured in. And that's when things began to get more complicated. So there were the two Boer republics, Boas are Afrikaners, means farmer, but they're mostly Afrikaners. They were inland provinces, the Orange Free State and the Transvaal, whereas the Cape and the Quasuli Natal, which was Natal, was more British. And that's when the first Anglo-Bore War began, having had the Anglo-Zulu Wars already. The second Anglo-Boa War was 181909 to 1902, and you all know about that with the first

use of what's called concentration camps because the British couldn't beat the Boers. These were farmers that would provision themselves on a farm, go out and fight the British, and then go back to the farms to re-provision themselves. And the only way the British could resolve that was to take the women and children off the farms, burn the farms, and put them in camps. And in the camps they got dysentery and many of them died. It was not a good situation. Fast forward to 1910, Union of South Africa.

South Africa then fights with the Allies in the First World War, with the Allies in the Second World War, and in 1948 the national government, mostly Afrikaners, wins the election. And from 1948 to 1994, the Afrikaners, who were 60% of the white population of South Africa, rule the country. And apartheid was introduced in that period in the 1950s and then it was put into the constitution and our country was driven by separateness. So if you take the direct translation of apartheid, it's not, there's no word hate in the word. It's H-E-I-D. It means separateness. And it was all about separate development. Fast forward to 1994, the white minority government realized that A part of it's not sustainable, and that was due mainly to international pressure, but also to an

internal reckoning that this just wasn't sustainable. And we had a peaceful transition from white minority rule to democracy. Enter Nelson Mandela, who'd been in jail for 27 years. And from 1994 to 2008, the world basically said, we've done it, we've solved the problem, aren't we brilliant and looked the other way. But from 1994 to 2008, South Africa actually worked. Nelson Mandela, as like a giant, like a saint, stood over South Africa. And even though the ANC policies had been developed by the National Democratic Revolution in 1969, when they were all trained in Russia, there was deep communist and socialist ideology built into the ANC, National Democratic Revolution, Mandela strode over it and managed it rather effectively. There was meritocracy.

The country grew at three, four percent a year. Five hundred thousand jobs a year were added in that period and everything was going just fine. Do you pause there for a second? I want to ask you about Nelson Mandela because I came to Britain, I think, 95, 96 and I didn't know who he was. I just knew he was a saint. This is kind of how he was treated. And, uh, But I also knew that he had a violent past. He was kind of considered a terrorist by many people. But here he was having effectively united a country and held it together with his example of forgiveness and so on.

Can you talk a little bit about his contribution to where South Africa, how South Africa transitioned from a part height to where it was during that period? He was a terrorist. He was sent to jail for life on Robben Island as a terrorist for blowing up post offices, for organizing armed rebellion. and even announcing that women and children are going to get killed in the process. And he went through a full legal process. He was defended properly, was prosecuted properly, and he was sent to jail.

And even the international human rights and amnesty internationals, if it existed in those days, or the equivalent, did not pursue that case. Sorry to jump in. Were civilians, did he ever kill civilians? Yes. His organization did. His organization did. And he was part of formation of the military wing of the air.

which is called umcunte weseewe the spare of the nation and we're going to get back to those we'll call mk we're going to get back to that in a little while because it reappears and so how does he go from that violent terroristic activity he gets imprisoned well 27 years mainly on robin island he was an extraordinary man because that's a long time to spend in prison and over that period of time he won over his a lot of the guards a lot of the people around him. And I think he, I won't say mellowed, it's the wrong word, but I think he realized as he got closer to release that he needed to deliver reconciliation to the country. The country couldn't be torn apart any more than it was going forward. And he

took a view with DeClerc, both of whom won the Nobel Peace Prize together, FW DeClerc, that the country needed truth and reconciliation. And South Africa formed the truth and Conciliation Commission, which basically said that if you come and admit the crimes that you did under apartheid in front of audience, in front of the parents of whose child you might have killed, you would be forgiven. And that was the bloodletting that was required to go forward in a peaceful way. And a deal was done. The constitution was developed together with the ANC, an incredible constitution, But it didn't factor a certain important thing into the Constitution, was that if somebody evil or malevolent or corrupt was elected president,

the power that they would have to turn the country in the wrong direction, which will get to you in 2008. So Nelson Mandela held back a lot of the forces in South Africa from 1994 until he stepped down and Tabo and Becky came. and as president. He held back the forces that wanted retribution, punishment, and managed the country in a way that held it all together and held it in the right direction, and we had economic growth. Before Francis jumps in, what does the racial breakdown of South Africa today? So I think in the early 90s, the white population was 15 to 20 percent of the country. It is now

7% and there are 5 million whites South Africans made up of Afrikaners and Anglos. The Afrikaners are the people that speak Afrikaans, have been there mostly since 1650. And the Anglos arrived later. The main group of Anglos arrive from Britain in 1820, the 1820 settlers. So the two white South African tribes, Then there's the colors, and the colors are the mix of white and black, or white and and Indian. Or, you know, they're the combinations. They're another 8%.

So white's 7%, colored 8% and Indians, people of Indian extraction of 3%. So about 18% of the country are not black. And then the black South Africans, I think they're 26 different tribes. tribes. They're 12 official languages in South Africa, official languages. Wow. But they're 26 different tribes. Gauza, the Zulu are the biggest, then Suana, Suu, and on and on and on. It's a country that's twice the size of France, 60 million people, and the Western Cape has nothing whatsoever to do with the Northwesterns or Quasulu Natal. It's a very complex situation. many ethnicities, many cultures, and many languages.

You've already hinted, Rob, at how the seeds of South Africa's demise were kind of already sown in this constitution and the ANC. And I think it's really important for people to understand. Let's draw down on the politics of this, because there is a communist element, there is, you know, retribute, there is a spirit or a desire for retribution or revenge. So what's really going on here with these, with the, politics of the ANC and similar parties like that?

So all the members of the ANC prior to 1994 were either part of the trade unions in South Africa or were outside of South Africa, part of MK, the military wing, or being trained in Russia. Vast majority of them were being trained in Russia, in Soviet Russia and then in USSR, are Russia. And it comes through very clearly in the National Democratic Revolution document, which is coming into play today on an accelerated basis as the noose titans on South Africa. But in 2008, a man got elected as president, Jacob Zuma, trained in Russia, somebody that Tabam Beki didn't trust, didn't like, but, didn't think was smart enough, so made him his vice president. And when Zuma became president,

having been trained in Russia, he began to play his cards and instituted what is called state capture. And I loved your expression the other day. I had rewatched one of your speeches that said the barbarians aren't at the gate. They're inside the gate. Well, in South Africa, the barbarians have captured the commanding heights of the economy, of our democracy, and of our culture. And the noose is now really tightening. But it began before Jacob Zuma. Cyril Ramaphosa, our current president,

was part of a cadre deployment, C-A-D-R-E. South Africans call it Cader. I think it's pronounced Cadre. Cardre. There was a cadre deployment commission formed. Initially in secret, but all the documents had been found, which basically sort of,

to impose into not just positions of power, but even at the middle class, you know, the head of a sewage plant in a small town, the head of a electricity department in some small province. They replaced all of these mainly white, middle class people who were getting up in the morning and doing their jobs of maintaining the infrastructure. Even those people were replaced by ANC loyalists. And what happened from 2008, under Jacob Zuma's rule, was complete looting, rape and pillage of the country. And that's when the economic decline began. And how much of this is ideological, Rob, and how much of this is corruption? Because Africa has rampant corruption, as we know. It's a very good question. I mean, it's, it's, it's, you've got to add,

there's ideology, kleptocracy, and inectocracy. there's embarrassingly stupid, incompetent people being put in positions of power. For example, South African Airways was the best airline in Africa. By far, profitable, well-run in 1994 when the country was handed over. Under Jacob Zuma, whose puppet masters were some Indian brothers called the Guptas, he appointed Dudu Mayani as chairperson of South African Airways. she was a school teacher, a failed school teacher. Her only job as chairperson was to divert money to the ANC and to the Guptas.

So it's a great question. It's ideological plus kleptocracy plus ineptocracy, all three together, which is a highly destructive, you know, it's like the witches boiling their stew. It's because when I read about South Africa, as someone who has a Venezuelan background, the more I read about it, the more I go, this is a very similar story to what I've experienced and what I've seen in a way that I didn't actually think it was when I first read about it on the surface. So people often say South Africa is the next Zimbabwe, but it's not. And I can tell you why it's very different. But it is much more likely the next Venezuela. You're 100% right. You know, in a moment of, in an emotional moment, this friend of mine, he was the ambassador to the, I won't say which country, ambassador in Africa and then an ambassador in South

America, part of the ANC, an ANC member, I think he's left the ANC now, I think he'd had a brandy too many, he said to me, you know, Rob, what you white guys will never, ever understand is sometimes we are grateful that Mugabe chased the white farmers out of Zimbabwe. We know the country got destroyed, we know everyone was forced into poverty, but we were happy to see the white people chased out. And I just thought, wow, if this hatred exists under the surface, do we even stand a chance in this country? And it's very worrying because I think what's happening is there are 5 million white South

Africans and 5.5 million colored South Africans. Eighty-eight percent of South Africans are Christians, conservative, church-going, slow-moving. And even though democracy is moving in the right direction, in 2024, the ANC for the first time in 30 years, lost its majority in a national election. It had 70 percent in the beginning, dropped down to 60, was at 56 percent in May 2024 and the election happened 41%. And they were forced to form a coalition with the main opposition, the Democratic Alliance. And the Democratic Alliance is a centrist, pro-West, Judea-Christian free market. I mean, I'd say they're more Democrat than a Republican, if you look at them in the South African context. But the ANC was forced to form a coalition with the Democratic

alliance, okay, and a whole lot of other smaller parties. But even so, they're still trying to force through racist, socialist, and anti-American and anti-Semitic laws in South Africa. Tell us about that, Rob, what are these laws? What's actually, because people will just say those are words. What do you mean specifically? What are they instituting in law? The news moves fast, and it's not just about keeping up, it's about seeing clearly. In a world where headlines are constantly shifting and narratives change by the hour, understanding how a story is being reported is just as important as what the story is. That's why I use ground news.

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Since 1994, 114, race-based laws have been added to South Africa. Since 1994, there are 140, mostly anti-white, race-based laws in South African law. In the early 90s, after 1994, a process called black economic empowerment was put into place. And everyone accepted that. Corporates accepted it. Everyone said, it's a good thing to empower the previously disadvantaged. and bring them into the economy.

By the way, the same thing was done in the 1940s and 1950s, when most of the big businesses were owned by Anglos and not Afrikaners, and a conscious decision was made. We need to help the Afrikaners be part of the economy and allow them to build great businesses, which then happened. So the same process was put in place. Bring the previously disadvantaged, mainly black people, but colors and Indians, into the economy. Let's have banks owned by black people.

And the law was that it started this way. Any business that did, any company that did business with the government would have to have 30% of its shareholding owned by previously disadvantaged to people. Clear enough, everyone accepted that. It then moved from any business, any company doing business with the government to any business. To January 2025, we have the Equity, Employment and Amendment Act. which says that any business with 50 or more employees has to have a racial breakdown equal to where the country stands. How are you going to have a technology department

with only 7% white people, 8% colors, 2% to 3% Indian, and the rest black? How do you manufacture that? The government has gone from include previously-disclose. disadvantaged in the economy, children accepted, to we're going to tell you who you can hire and who you can't fire. That's just one element. Another law that came out recently, signed by Cyril Ramaphosa, listen to these three wonderful words, expropriation without compensation. Sounds familiar to me with my Soviet background.

Right. So I can go on. This is about farmland, right? No. No? No. It's anything if it's in the public interest. But what's in the public interest?

Your house, the watch off your arm, my farm. It's getting to a point, a point like Venezuela, where there's potentially economic genocide. Wait, what's economic genocide? My understanding of genocide is the deliberate extermination of a group of people. So if you take the full definition of genocide, there are ten elements to it. There's classification, symbolization, dehumanization.

organization, organization, persecution, extermination, and denial. I'm missing one or two. And if you look at all of those, when it comes to South Africa, there are probably six or seven of those in process now. If you apply for a job, you're racially classified. It's all in place. And now they're closing the noose. Economically, what comes next? Chasing people out of South Africa, getting people to leave their farms. And there's a horrific thing going on in South Africa, which Donald Trump highlighted, farm attacks. There are two farm attacks every day in South Africa, two murders of farmers every week, and 20% of the murders involve rape and torture. It is three times more likely as a South African farmer to be murdered than as a South African police.

and twice as likely as a South African policeman to be murdered than an average citizen. Being a South African farmer is the most dangerous profession in South Africa. And why is that happening? Well, their economic reasons. Farmers are isolated. You know, there's usually a husband or wife, maybe a teenage son that know how to use a weapon. Not sure you can trust your staff because they're scared, untrained. And when we have load shedding, which means that electricity goes down, Because our government, our ANC government, has broken and stolen all of our state-owned enterprises,

they were handed the most sophisticated economy in Africa in 1994, and they've broken every single state-owned enterprise. Our trains don't run on. Our railways don't work. There's sewage in the streets. It's broken. The South Africa is broken. But farms are isolated. If electricity goes down, those people that don't have solar or backup generators, Their alarm systems don't work. They're vulnerable. The farm attack situation, if you take 30,000 South African commercial farmers and 3 million American commercial farmers, and you take a pro rata of the South African farmers murdered between 2020 and today, 235,000 American farmers would have been murdered in farm attacks between 2020 and today.

You don't think that's some form of drug. genocide? Well, why is it happening? This is what I was going to ask you, because before we were speaking with you, I spoke to a friend of ours, actually a very good guy who supported our channel when we were in our infancy. I used to have friends. As did we. We have new friends now. And he's South African. His family's still there. And he told me that his uncle was a farmer who was murdered last year. And I said to him, why is this happening? Which is the question you were about to address. And he said, well, first of all, South Africa is a very violent place. Correct.

The 20,000 murders every year. The farm murders, horrific as they are, are 100 a year or something along those lines, out of 20,000. So what he was saying is it's very difficult to know whether it is because they're geographically isolated. And as I understand, most farmers in South Africa are white. So it would look like that, even if it wasn't. being targeted. So what I want to get with you is, do you think this is specifically people being targeted because they're white? It's not just white farmers are being murdered. When I give you the farm numbers, it's white, black color. I'm just, I don't know enough about it to know. But the majority are white. So when you say this is genocide or the attempt to or the path to genocide, what are you

really saying? Why is this happening? So Julius Malema of the economic freedom fighters, This is the kill the bore game. Right. Yeah. Has been jumping up and down in stadiums filled of 100,000 people, all wearing red berets, shouting and singing, kill the boer, kill the farmer. And then in a separate interview, which is available on the internet, he says, we will slip the throat of whiteness, but not yet.

Why not, my shaba? Why not solely and all of that? because the mayor of DA in PE is a white man. So these people, when you want to heed them hard, go after a white man. They feel a terrible pain because you have touched a white man. Not because Mashabha and Soleil will not be touched. They will be touched, don't want. But we are starting with this white man.

and this, and this are cutting the throat of whatness, it's anger. Rehahulamla. And this, the South African courts, said, is not hate speech. If that's not hate speech, what is hate speech?

So we have the EFF, primarily, one settler, one bullet, kill the farmer, kill the boer, and doing it intentionally on a consistent basis. And it's not hate speech, it's a liberation song. And farm attacks and farm murders spike after these rallies and these songs. So there is definitely an incentive created by this kind of behavior in the farm murders. Some of it's economic. You know, we have the highest unemployment in the world.

33% unemployment is the official rate. 60% youth unemployment in South Africa. and all thanks to the ANC. They have de-industrialized our economy and they've destroyed our hope and our future. How much of it is also these parties saying, the white man is to blame, go and take it because you deserve it.

It has been stolen from you, which is what I saw in Venezuela. There's a lot of that narrative. So from 1994 to 2008, there wasn't any of that. From 2008 today, the ANC has deindustrialized our economy, destroyed our state-owned enterprises. On every metric, every single metric you look at in South Africa, health, education, we have massively underperformed.

And if you look at GDP, since 2008 to today, we've grown at 1% a year on average, and our population growth is 2% year. So the last 14 years, we've gone poorer. And it's entirely due to the ANC, ideology, kleptocracy, ineptocracy. 31 years they've been in power, and now they're saying the fault is whiteness, apartheid colonialism. 31 years later. You would think there's a sell-by date, an expiry date at which you stop blaming your ex-wife,

your ex-husband. there's got to be an expiry date for people to stop blaming whiteness apartheid and colonialism. Surely now it's obvious, it's the ANC to blame for what's happening in South Africa. And yet they turn the narrative on us. And how much of this is it also due to a population that is illiterate, uneducated, therefore easier to manipulate? So someone in the State Department came to see me a year ago, and he was just wondering why, South Africa couldn't fill out the fisheries agreement, the Egoa agreement, fill out the form. and send them in. And then he asked me a bigger question. He said, do you think what's happening in

South Africa is malevolence or incompetence? I thought it was a great question. I think it's both. It's a real element of malevolence and a huge amount of incompetence. It's very frustrating where we are. And, you know, this morning, I was chatting to two friends last night. And I woke up this morning thinking, where do I stand on South Africa? Because the days when I'm there and the sun is shining and I feel hopeful. But most days, I actually think it's the beginning of the end. Would I invest as a foreigner? Under no circumstances. Today, South Africa is uninvestable as a foreigner. As a South African, you've got money there. You've got to put it to work. And I think, you know, a million South Africans have left the country. There are more dollar-borne, sorry, more South African-born

dollar billionaires outside of South Africa, then in South Africa. I think there are 35 dollar billionaires living outside of South Africa and five living in South Africa. The two richest people in L.A. are born in South Africa, number one and number two. And so it goes. And I also think, and I've never mentioned this, I've remembered to say this, I think there are 300,000 British passport holders in South Africa, and there are 300,000 South Africans inside the M25 in the UK.

You know, but there's also, there must be seeds of hope here because it must come to the point where, so for instance, in Venezuela, the only reason the government is still in power is by force. That's literally the only reason, because the entire public sees that it's complete bullshit that they've been fed, even if you're uneducated, even if you are not put in not literate,

you can still see what is happening because it's undeniable. Has South Africa got to that point yet? Very, very, very good point. No one has ever raised. The army and police in South Africa, in 1994, we had by far the biggest, strongest, well-trained, best-trained army in Africa. I was an infantry officer for two years in 83 and 84. Our police were efficient and effective and they got the job done.

From 94 to today, both have fallen apart. We don't have a single... we created the Roy Falk helicopter was the most maneuverable helicopter in the world 20, 25 years ago. Okay, South Africa had a huge arms industry, collapse, bankrupt. So in Venezuela, they can stay in power through use of force, through military and police. South African military and police is pathetic and useless. Our police only have the budget to go to the firing range once a year and shoot at a fixed target. Okay? Whereas the average South African that has a gun and a gun license, a lot of people that don't

have gun licenses, is way better trained and there are more armed private security people in South Africa than the army and police put together. So there's no ability by the ANC government or by the EFF and MK, we're going to talk about them in a second, to have a coup d'etat or to create some military override to say, you will do what we say. But what they've done is played the slow game. It's a Soviet playbook, and they've put in place, measure by measure by measure, year by year, to strangle us economically. Corporate South Africa are either cowards,

colluders or most likely have been captured because they're not standing up and saying anything. I'm one of the very few businessmen standing up and speaking like I do. But in their defense, you're worried about your safety. And so they can quite easily say, why would I say something

when my life is going to be in jeopardy or the lives of my children or my family? But at what point do you take a stand? If you boil a frog, you know at what point does the frog say I can't take it anymore we're getting to that point but we haven't got there yet and so it's a slow it's a lot it's the long game well this is what I was going to ask you the way you feel things are headed you mentioned there's 300 South Africans within the M 25 and 4 out people who are not in Britain that's basically in London greater London

I'd say and 300 British passport 300,000 300,000 British passport holders and we see people now moving to the US, leaving South Africa. Do you think we are going to see a refugee crisis with South Africa in our lifetimes? People genuinely fleeing for their lives because things have become so bad. Economically, yes, but would the farm attacks spread to civil unrest in South Africa is really what we talk about. Yeah. We had civil unrest three years ago that started in Durban in the Quasulian-a-Tal area and spread to Johannesburg. The police and army did nothing. to protect the citizens. They stood back. And the citizens had to take it into their own hands to stand up and defend against these criminals. And it was orchestrated, was organized. It was the

beginning of an attempted coup and it failed because the average citizen was brave enough to stand up and protect their businesses, protect their shopping malls and stand together. And there were blacks, whites, Indians and colored standing together with their weapons to protect against these people with the police standing and watching from the sidelines. So I always say the one positive we have is almost impossible to have a coup. If you look at the economic freedom fighters, there are about 8% of the vote, the Red Beret, the dangerous crazy guys, they're mostly up in the northeast. There's no support for them down in the Cape, no support in the Northern Cape.

In fact, they came down to Cape Town to cause trouble. and they were hounded or chased away by the local population. So the likelihood of civil unrest spreading across the country is very low. The likelihood of coup d'etat is very low. It's just economic strangulation that's taken place. Well, this is what my friend said to me, the one whose uncle was murdered on his farm. He said, look, I'm not sure that the farm genocide way of looking at is entirely correct. But the one thing I can tell you is I tell all my white male relatives,

there is no future for you in this country. You have to leave. You have to leave. And the other thing here and I discussed as well is I wanted to ask you about Rob is, as you know, we've been pretty vocal about our opposition to DEI here in the West, diversity, equity and inclusion, mainly because I feel it's just factually unfair on principle, let's be honest. But also what it does is it institutionalizes incompetence because you're not hiring the best people,

you're hiring people on other metrics. That sounds like what's been happening. It's DEI as a country. Right. That's what Donald Trump said. He said, South Africa's DEI as a country. And it's getting worse. And you mentioned something before we started that I literally could not believe.

You said there are racial quotas in South Africa for sport. For sport. And the funny thing is about that, you know, whenever we talk about these racial quotas, we go, Well, you wouldn't do that in sport, right? Like, you wouldn't do that in the NBA. You wouldn't do that in the Premier League, because that's crazy. You guys even have quotas in sport. We do, including the Springbok rugby team, which is incredible because we're still winning.

Right. But it's written and unwritten. So there are the laws of the country, which are getting more and more racist and more and more socialist and being forced upon us in a quicker and quicker way. And I think that's because the ANC are realizing they've loved. lost their majority, and they've got to get this stuff through as quickly as possible. But at the sport level, it's, it, my daughter, under 13 water polo had to have from the Western Cape, which is the, which is the province that has white, colors, but not a lot of black people.

There were no black tribes in the Cape, but they've come as economic migrants looking for opportunity. and most of the private schools, boys and girls schools, struggle to find black pupils. So if you go upcountry, 50, 60, 70% of the private schools are black boys, black girls. But down in the Cape, it's 10, 15, 20% at the most because they struggle to find local parents who are able to get the scholarships or afford to come to the school. My daughter's under 13 water polo team had to have two girls of color. and she lost her position as a result of that.

And then people will say water polo for 13 euros, what does it matter? But if you multiply that over the... Extrapolate that across all sports in South Africa and you can see where we're heading. And then you multiply that to stay in their own businesses, to private businesses, to everything. You are going to find yourself in a position where nothing works because the people in charge were not picked... And no one's going to invest in South Africa. Yeah. If you're told who you have to hire, who you can, can and can't fire, the racial breakdown of your company. I mean, who's going to invest in our country?

And then you have expropriation without compensation, hanging over your head like a sword of Damocles. And the ANC government, who Cyril wrote it into law in January, said, it'll be in the public interest, and I doubt we're ever going to use it. Then why have the law? And I use it as my expression is, it's a loaded gun on the bedroom table with children running around. At some point, someone's going to pull the trigger. But here's the piece we're missing. The ANC, who are entirely responsible for destroying the country, have 40%. The Democratic Alliance, the party I'd vote for, have 21%. But next, just right behind them at 15% is Jacob Zuma. He's back again with his party on Kuntai-West Seas were. Remember? Sphere of the nation, the military arm

of the ANC. He, not even a year before the May 2024 election, comes out of the woodwork and says, I'm forming a party, I'm calling it in Kumptu O'Sizu, and he gets 15% of the vote, bang. And behind him, at 8-9%, is Julius Malama economic freedom fighters. So if you add up ANC at 40-ish percent, MK at 15, EFF at 10, you're around 60% of the country, of voting for racist and socialist policies.

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UK slash trigger. This is what I was going to ask you because I'm just, the thing I always try to do is listen to what our guests are saying and then go, what is the logical, what is the logical conclusion of all of this, right? So you've got a country that you mentioned the racial breakdowns, about 80% black, more or less. You mentioned your friend and former ANC member who told you, we look at Zimbabwe and we're kind of happy, even though the country is ruined, because effectively the white people have been chased out, killed, etc., right?

Exactly right. And you've got democracy with a country in which 80% of people are from the majority demographic. many of him feel that way. Where is this headed, Rob? It's headed into the abyss. Yeah, I mean... I'm negative. I'm negative. I'm three out of ten today about South Africa.

I called my wife a few days ago, having spent 10 days in America, and I said, for the sake of our, you know, for the sake of the next and the next generation, I think we need to set up a base in America and consider moving there. Once our children have finished high school, get them into American universities, and focus on building our next few generations in America. I'm very negative about South Africa right now. With my Benazwell and head on, sorry to interrupt. How much can we trust these statistics?

How corrupt is democracy? That's also a very good question. South Africa is a failed state. it's got an economy that's collapsing. Our fixed investment as a percent of GDP is 15%. An emerging market country should be 25%. We are being de-industrialized. We've got big international companies, Exxon Shell, leaving the country.

We've got foreign direct investment looking at South Africa and going, why would we bother? It's over-regulated. We're forced to give a third of our business. on day one to somebody the ANC tells us to. And by the way, it used to be previously disadvantaged. It's now not colored, not Indian, and not black tribes that the ANC doesn't like. So it's just their cronies.

And I read an amazing article the last few days that said over a trillion rand has been transferred to 100 families only over the last 20 years. So it's just kleptocracy. for the elites at the highest level, but they're doing it slowly, that the country has hit a war now. If they were smart, they would actually allow economic growth through sensible policies so they could steal for a lot longer. But the economy is hitting the wall.

And I say that if any South African have children that have finished their high school, finished university, they should leave the country. What's the point of being in South Africa? white-colored or Indian, if there's a glass ceiling. You can't get jobs or can't play sport because of your pigmentation. Go somewhere else. The thing that worries me as well is just listening to it. Everything you're saying, I'm sure, is absolutely correct, which makes me think that if the government have that much of a stranglehold over the country, which they clearly do, why wouldn't they have that over democracy? It is not in their

interest to relinquish power. So the stance that you're giving me, I don't believe them. I don't believe them. I just don't. I get it. Anyone who's logical and sensible, here's what I'm saying and says it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. But here's why it does. If there's just a small group of people, call them 100 families that want to steal as much as possible, it's not in their interest to have a functioning democracy or a functioning democracy or functioning economy. If you break, it's easier to steal. And that's simply the malevolence of what the ANC is doing in this country. There's now the government of national unity, coalition of the ANC, the DA and a few other smaller parties, okay? The centrist poll in South Africa. But the ANC are

pushing through laws that are even more socialist and even more racist, despite being part of a coalition. And the main opposition party, the Democratic Alliance, have to sue them in court. So a government minister, an ANC government minister, who put in an act to become law, put it to parliament, okay, and the DA have to sue them to stop it. How much of a government of coalition is that? We shouldn't even bother having a parliament. We should just have the cabinet and the law. And one thing worse, I think about 60 to 70% of the judiciary in South Africa has been captured.

In Turkey, when Erdogan got elected, what was the first thing he did? Change the constitution. He got more than 60% to change the constitution. And the very first thing he did after that in Turkey replaced 6,000 judges. Why? So that all decisions could go the way he wanted them to. And exactly the same with the ANC. Over the last six years, they have been replacing judges with their loyalists to the point where I'm estimating 60 to 70% of the lawyers, local, regional, national are corrupted and captured by the ANSI.

The fact that kill the borer, one settler, one bullet, slit the throat of whiteness, was not hate speech, means that the, judiciary isn't the judiciary we had hoped for. I'm going to ask you a problematic question. So... He's South Africa. He's up for it. Doesn't help with this accent.

Okay, in Venezuela, there is a culture in South America, which is, and you see it personally in football, if I screw you over and you fall for my trick, you're the idiot, I'm smart. And I've seen it right the way through South America, and particularly in Venezuela.

I'm in Russia, by the way. And you go, okay, and I remember having an argument with my uncle, and he made that point in going, oh, you English people, you're idiots, because of blah, blah, and I'm like, yes. But then we take your attitude on the macro level and what we have is societal collapse because no one can trust each other and no one can do any form of business because they can't be any trust because everybody's trying to screw each other over. So I guess my problematic question is how much of this of what we're seeing, okay, there's kleptocracy, there is the ideological element, how much of this is also cultural as well, which is a big problem in Venezuela?

It's 100% cultural. So if you look at South Africa, you could say, is it a geography issue, isolated country, is it a management issue? This is it just being run badly? Is it a racial issue? Is it an ideological issue? Or is it a cultural issue? And it's all of these, but I think the one, the hardest one to talk about is actually the cultural issue.

This is a tough one. When the 1820 settlers arrived from England, the Port of Natal, Durban, and they met the first, the Zulus, the Zulus, didn't have the written word. Okay? 1820 is 200 years ago. Not that long ago. They didn't have the written word. They were not subsistent farmers, but they were cattle grazing. They weren't arable farmers like we have today, farming arable land with processes.

In those 200 years, how fast does it take a culture to catch up with another culture? A more advanced culture or more civilized, whatever you want to call it, more mechanized, more industrialized. I don't know what the right word is here, without getting into trouble. I was on a black podcaster a couple of months ago, DJ Spoo, where the issue that I wanted to address with him was, do you still need black economic empowerment? At what point can we get back to merit, get rid of DEI and actually compete on merit? And he had someone else in the podcast, a surprise guest, another black podcaster, who said they need another 30 years. I don't know where he came up with that. So they've had 30 years to try and make the country move. They failed to try and bring the previously disadvantaged people into the economy and give them a chance. They need another 30 years before they can compete on merit?

That was their answer, not mine. So what is it about the cultures in South Africa that's going to make this thing impossible? We have a third world, a second world, and a first world, South Africa. And the first world's being ground down. I'm not hopeful. No, you don't seem hopeful, but based on what you're saying, I don't see why you would be. If you were a rational man listening to what you're saying, it does not look like it's tragically heading in the right direction. And one of the things that's interesting as well is I want to talk a little bit about the Marxist stuff,

because I know from personal experiences there was a lot of Soviet infiltration of African countries. I have family members that went there as part of the Soviet Union. et cetera, so I'm familiar with that. But one of the other things is, we talked very much at the beginning about the fact that the world stopped paying attention to South Africa, even as these terrible things were developing since 2008 in particular. Do you think that's partly because actually at some level, the rest of the world is going through a similar process at a lower scale

in terms of things like DEI? So when we see DEI in South Africa, we go, well, of course, these are colonial evil people, white people, who are bad, and they're now paying for the crimes that they should be rightly paying for. So we won't say anything about this. Because I give you this counter example. If, let's say, South Africa was still under a part, let's say it was ruled by a majority white people, let's say.

And they were creating rules against black people. They were creating separateness. They were, there was some chance about, you know, kill the black people, et cetera. Do you think we'd have the same attitude? Because I don't think so. Not at all. I mean, we would be attacked. We would be demonized. Without a doubt. Right. Without a doubt. Look, the one positive about South Africa, you asked for hope, is there's still free speech. Saying what I do in South Africa has allowed a lot more people to get the courage to stand up and say some of the things. So I'm not fortunately not the only person saying these things.

I'm one of the only businessmen. But there are way more people now in media and law and journalists and podcasters saying the same thing. So it is still freedom of speech. But if I was in Russia or China speaking like I do, you wouldn't see me again. Whether I'd get re-educated or just disappear as a whole other matter. So if you flipped it on its head, the example you've given,

there's no way South Africa would be. allowed to continue if it was, you know, kill the minorities, kill the other people. There's no way. It's, you know, the word genocide is a very difficult word to use because Donald Trump used it and he used it so intelligently because he used it to bring the spotlight of the world on South Africa. Okay. He also didn't do a Zelensky on Silver Ramaphosa in the White House. He was clever enough to pick the EFF, the kill the Boer, the Julius Malema. But he gave Sir Ruaan Poir's an opportunity to say, we don't condone it, we shouldn't condone it,

and then a journalist asked, why hasn't he been arrested? Why hasn't Julius Malema been arrested? It's just, it's an absolute travesty that this is allowed to continue, and only Donald Trump seems to notice and seems to care. Britain, Europe, still talk about soft diplomacy, and the ANC laugh at them, laugh at them. We're isolated, we're on our own, a lot of the left think we deserve it. And I think that's what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of people will be listening to this conversation with that mindset,

because, look, let's be honest, the part hard was terrible as far as I understand, and many of the things that happened to black people in the country we now call South Africa over the centuries were terrible, right? So I think that the entire world has now come to a cultural point where we're all trying to reckon with these things that, you know, throughout history we're considered actually pretty normal, but in the last few centuries, thankfully, we've woken up to the idea we don't want to behave in this way. And so you're left with this kind of thing,

but I just think the reason South Africa is ignored as much as it is, it seems to me, is that we, in the rest of the anglosphere, just look at it and kind of go, well, you know, it's bad, but... And it's in Africa? Yeah, it's in Africa, and also they kind of deserve it, really. Like, we deserve. This is how low British people feel. We deserve to be paying reparations and doing all these things.

Despite you were the first country to give up slavery. Right. Despite many countries continuing for another hundred years in slavery, don't get pointed out. Yeah. But talking of moving forward, what could you, other than Nelson Mandela, was there any reason that that period between 94 and 184 and

2008 was so much better than the current period. Is there anything you can go back to and go, we were doing these things better? Maybe if we stopped doing this or go back to doing that, that you might be able to recover some sanity in South Africa? So South Africa still has the best infrastructure in Africa. There's a larger rail network in South Africa than the whole of Africa put together. Our roads, despite all the potholes up country, the Cape Town, the Cape Town, the Cape is a very different animal to the rest of South Africa.

So if you visit South Africa, you come to Cape Town, you go, what's the first of the fussed about. Like being in a gorgeous Mediterranean country. But if you go up country, it's very edgy. You don't stop at red lights at night. You use them as a yellow light and check there's nothing there and drive through. It's very edgy up country. So the infrastructure's there. The country can be fixed and it can be turned around very, very quickly. But we need a Malay. We need a Malay who comes in. We need a benevolent dictator. And when I talk about a turnaround country, take a turnaround expert and businesses. If you have a business that's failing, turnaround expert comes in, in the first week, they fire

management, they call the debt holders and say, we're not paying interest for the next three years, take it or leave it. They tell the equity holders, you've got five cents on the dollar, sit tight, maybe you'll get your money back one day. They hive off the divisions of the company that will never make money, and they do it immediately, and they hone down on what can be fixed, what can work, and they focus their attention on that. The same needs to happen in South Africa. We have 32 cabinet ministers. 32 cabinet ministers. We have a minister of women. What does a minister of woman do in South Africa? And all the ministers

have deputy ministers, blue light brigades, security details, budgets. The waste is off the chart, off the charts. And we have state-owned enterprises, electricity supply commission, the remnants of South African Airways, transnet or rail network, all desperate for money. Our post office,

who sends mail these days? Our post office is requiring another 50 billion just to stay alive. These should be sold off or closed down. The country's fixable. I can fix it. Give me 100 days as a benevolent dictator. And I can get,

No, I can turn the country around. And it's all the basic stuff. It's all the stuff Harvey and Malay is doing. We need to do it in warp speed. And unfortunately, democracy is working. Our next election in 2020. I say unfortunately, because it's working too slowly. In 2029, we have our next national election.

Our economy's not going to make it until then. But at 2020, 29, the ANC will be irrelevant. So there's a whole blank sheet of paper. There is the light of paper. is the light at the end of the tunnel in 2029 if we can make it to there. So why do you need a dictator? Could this not be fixed democratically? It's just too slow. We're running out of money, we're hitting a debt ceiling, we've hit the laffer curve on taxes. The more tax they raise, the less money they receive. People

are desperate. We're being more racist, more socialist laws being implemented by the day. And people are leaving. Anyone with talent and opportunities, is leaving the country or has left already. And it's a tragedy because the people who suffer the most are not the ones who leave, of course, they suffer, but it's the people who can't leave, who've got no choice. And they're literally stuck there in a collapsing society.

And why am I doing this? I don't need to do this. I'm wealthy enough to... I can be the last chopper out of Saigon. I can leave tomorrow. I can go live in Miami. I don't need to do this. I'm doing it because...

every day, the average citizen walks up to me and says, thank you for giving us a voice. I'm not doing it to be a hero. My wife begged me to step down and stop doing it. And she said to me, can trigonometry be your last international podcast? And I just feel for her. And it's not fun doing what I'm doing. But South Africans are desperate.

There's a real element of desperation. And one thing we haven't touched on yet is you've talked in, I think, with Dave Rubin about the fact that the ANC has very strong links with Iran which is part of, in your telling at least, the explanation of why South Africa is so pro-Palestine, anti-Israel, whatever you want to call it, including the International Criminal Court and so on. Can you talk about that?

Yes. During apartheid, South Africa had very few allies. So South Africa is allied with Taiwan, and the other pariah, Israel. And we had military cooperation with the three of us. A&C got support from Gaddafi, from Arafat, PLO, not Hamas, the PLO, and various other rogue, would we consider rogue states, plus Russia and China, but mainly Russia. The anti-apartheid movement, okay, wasn't just black people standing up.

A lot of white people put their lives at risk to support the anti-apartheid movement. Some publicly and in South Africa and constitutionally. Harry Oppenheimer, the richest man in South Africa at the time, was publicly vocal against apartheid. And Helen Sussman, one of the greats in Parliament, Jewish as well, stood against apartheid. But within the ANC, there was a Jewish element, Ronnie Castrol's Joe Slovo, who were hard-boiled communists that helped create the National Democratic Revolution and were very, very pro the ANC.

And yet, today, the ANC supports Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and they're being paid by Iran to do so. What's your basis for saying now, Rob, just because people will ask? Reports, it's detailed, it's known. But there's also instinct intuition, and things that are pretty obvious if you take a look. Prior to the 2024 election, the ANC was bankrupt, couldn't pay its bills,

and the courts were going to take some of their buildings in return to the people that they owed money to. And overnight they had money. Overnight they had money. Neledi Pando, who had married a Muslim and converted to Islam, was the foreign minister, had many trips to Iran back and forward, and all of a sudden the ANC had money,

followed by the ANC then putting forward the ICJ case against Israel. There's a lot of proof that it's the case. The money came from Iran to the ANC, not directly to the case for the ICJ, but it didn't need to. It's a well-known fact that Iran has been funding the ANC. Wow. And you think that the case they put forward against Israel

is tied to that money. Absolutely, without a doubt. In addition, Durko, the Department of International Relations, I don't know what the CEO means, and cooperation, has been captured by ANC Islamists. Every senior member of our Foreign Affairs Department is an Islamist. Abraham Rusul was the ambassador that South Africa sent to Washington, and he publicly called Donald Trump a white supremacist and a racist.

And the Americans kicked him out. This is our Department of Foreign Affairs. So there's a big, and there's a small, I mean, our Muslim population in South Africa's 2%. And there generally have been wonderful, moderate, decent people until Iran started getting involved in South Africa through the ANC, and that's when the troubles began. We now have a much more radicalized Muslim population in South Africa and a lot of anti-Semitism. The Jewish population in South Africa, I think, has gone from 100,000. 50,000 down to 40,000.

And it's a vast majority of Jews in South Africa left. And finally, the one thing we haven't talked about is the Soviet communist infiltration. This is personal interest for reasons you'll know given that you watch the show. But what has been the impact of that on South Africa? Maybe talk a little bit about Africa more broadly, because I know that the South Africans fought in Angola, for example, where I know people who were there at the time from the Soviet side trying to stir things up. So the minute the Cold War ended, apartheid had no allies left. Because during the Cold War, the South African government was an ally of the West.

And we were actively fighting communists in Angola, in Mozambique, in Africa. And we had a very, very well-trained, whites only, very well-trained, successful military. We had Danell, which was our arms manufacturing, long-range howitzers, did a very good job militarily. There was no threat from MK. There was no real threat from the ANC. The armed wing of the ANC was ineffective against the South African military and police. But the Soviet influence was significant during the Cold War. And then after the Cold War, till today, there's been Russian influence politically

in South Africa, backing Jacob Zuma, banking his MK party, but from an economic side, it's limited because everything that South Africa and Africa has in terms of minerals, resources, commodities, forestry, Russia has. There's no real interest from Russia, from an economic perspective in Africa. It's more military and strategic. China is way more influential in Africa because Africa has. all the commodities, minerals and metals, that China needs, and for its Belt and Road strategy. And remember, Simons Town Naval Base, Cape Town, has, for a very long time, been very strategic. It became less strategic when the Red Sea was open, when the Iran wasn't a threat, and the Panama Canal was open.

But with the Red Sea and with the Houthis and with the Suez, under some pressure, South Africa becomes strategic again. And South Africa is a springboard into Africa for the West. You know, it's a Judea-Christian country primarily, English-speaking, has a crumbling but still strong infrastructure, and is the absolute ideal springboard into Africa. It ought to be saved. So is Russia active in South Africa? It's active in funding Jacob Zuma and his M.K. party. but it's not obviously as active as it, I think it's got, Russia's got other priorities and other problems. And that's a good thing for us. And the ANC's got nowhere to run to. You know, Russia's got its hands full with America and Ukraine. China's got its hands full with America. And we know China's just going into deflation right now.

I think you saw that a few days ago. And Iran is running out of allies and they're going to be forced to do a deal with America or get hammered by Israel. The ANC's got nowhere to run. And I suppose that's a positive. You know, maybe our opportunity is the external crisis or opportunity being Donald Trump and his administration, focusing on South Africa, making it a priority, which they've done, and putting pressure on the ANC. Maybe this is our one chance. And if we can make it through to 2029, I honestly believe that there will be a center, pro-West, Judea-Christian, free market, political. party or coalition party that will win the day. We just got to make it through to 2029. Rob, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Final question is

always the same. What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? Before Rob answers the final question, at the end of the interview, make sure you click the link in the description. Go to our substack where you'll be able to see this. Will communism lead to the downfall of South Africa, essentially? Is South Africa heading for civil war? I'm a South African and my family is still there, thankfully, in the Western Cape. My question is really, do you feel hopeful for some kind of future for them? Or should they make a plan B like Namibia? What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

The Islamification of Africa, that someone no one talks about and it really concerns me. If you take a country like Burkino Faso, which, as you know, is north of Ghana and Sierra Leone, And as you know, the capital is Wagadougu. That was smooth. The Wagadoodoo. Wagadougu. What wagadougu?

Yeah. And you're not to spell it. It's sorts of an O. Sort of an O. It starts of a O. Wagadougu. Oh, of course. Yeah. How did you not know that,

Mike? Wagadugadu. And the capital of Madagascar you knows, Antanariva. I mean, these are easy questions. But Burkina Faso, last generation, was 80% Christian and 20% of Muslim.

This generation is 80% Muslim. and 20% Christian. And there's a powerful Islamification of Africa moving south. And if you assume rough numbers, the 10% are radicals of 1.4 billion Muslims, if only 10% are radicals, that's only 140 million to the hell of a lot of people. And Africa's got some real problems ahead, already in Nigeria, already in Kenya, with radical Islam moving south. And no one talks about it.

Join us on Substack, where we'll be having more uplifting and happy conversations. You've pointed out how socialism is getting traction with South Africa's young people. How do you get them to see that free enterprise and free markets, not slogans, are actually what will lift people out of poverty?