TRIGGERnometry - The State of Britain - Konstantin Kisin & Francis Foster

Episode Date: February 23, 2025

Francis and Konstantin discuss the current state of the UK. SPONSOR. We use Ground News to escape the echo chamber and stay fully informed. Go to https://ground.news/triggernometry to save 40% on the Ground News unlimited access Vantage plan. SPONSOR. Express VPN. Go to https://www.expressvpn.com/trigger/ to get 4 months FREE. SPONSOR. Stash. Go to https://get.stash.com/trigger to see how you can receive $25 towards your first stock purchase. Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Substack! https://triggernometry.substack.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Shop Merch here - https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. 00:00 Introduction (full of positivity) 02:12 The State Of The Conservative Party 08:56 Are We Conservative? 14:22 The Problem With Reform 22:29 The Relationship Between British People And Wealth 27:07 Young People Are Being Screwed Over 38:17 Reaching Rock Bottom 50:33 We Need To Let Go Of The Self-Loathing 54:11 No More Tolerating Malevolent Actors 01:03:59 People Need To Start Speaking Up Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Browse securely. Connect with confidence. Right now, save 83% off the two-year plan. Get started today at IPVanish.com slash audio and take control of your privacy with IPVAN. vanish. What worries both of us is that I can't see any real signs of improvement, either culturally, socially, or economically. You know, I don't think people make this point enough, but the people that we're really screwing over this country are the young. People in this country aren't having

enough kids already. You want to make it harder for them? You want to make it harder for them to get on the housing ladder? You wouldn't want to be here and be young. What can we learn from America? What are they doing differently? Why are they growing and we're not? I see our country as very much somebody who is an addict. We're addicted to mass immigration. We're addicted to debt. And we're addicted like all addicts to not face up to the truth. Eventually, you're going to hit rock bottom or you die.

You've got to stand up for what you believe. Because if you don't, the thing you believe is going to disappear. So a lot of people in our audience and also our team thought it would be good for us to have a chance. we did one after our trip to America, reviewing the election and all of that. Obviously, this one will be just as positive. Absolutely. There's so much good stuff to talk about. What is possibly going wrong in the UK at the moment, apart from quite literally everything. It seems at the moment that the UK is in a funk.

And that's not actually what worries me, and I know that's not what worries you. What worries both of us is that we're looking at our country, the country where we grow, and I can't see any real signs of improvement, either culturally, socially or economically. And that is a very worrying place to be in, wouldn't you agree? Well, yeah, so the worrying thing is, obviously, we didn't expect the slave government to be amazing. They're not amazing. The thing that worries me most about it is what they're doing is essentially driving

the economy into the floor. And it's inevitable when you raise taxes to such a level that people basically leave or don't start businesses or don't take extra work because it just doesn't make any sense anymore. So the tax approach that they've taken just seems completely crazy. And then you have to look at the fact that, look, it's early days, but I don't get the sense that the Conservative party is recovered from its demise of last year. Do you? No, no, not at all. To me, the Tory party are a, I kind of see them actually like the Democrat Party in the US. They've betrayed people's trust.

They have fundamentally failed. It's actually worse than the Dems. The Dems had four years. This has been 14 years of complete, abject and total failure. See, I was thinking of doing a joke there about the Tory leader not having dementia, but then I had to, I actually had to think who the last Tory leader was. Because there was so many of them and they were all equally useless. Yeah. I mean, the only thing that we learned from the Tory leaders is that all diversity really gives you is a bunch of leaders who are all equally crap. That's it. That's it. And so we just had Kemmy Badernock on the show. Yeah. And, you know, she's got a very difficult job. I think she's smart. I think Kirstama's smart, by the way. Two people don't like hearing this. But I think the leaders of both parties are pretty smart. I think Kemi's smart. But the job she has of, you know,

uniting basically the Lib Dems in her party with the reform curious people in her party. It just seems very, very difficult. I was talking to a very, very senior member, senior figure in the Conservative Party. And I said to him, we're going to be interviewing Kemmy in a week or so. What should I say to her? He laughed and said the words, she's fucked. That's what he said. And for those exact reasons that you've just stated,

what you have with the Tory party, and it's a criticism or an observation we've both made about the Labour Party, is you're trying to hold together this broad coalition of people that fundamentally don't belong in the same political party. Well, look, all political parties are coalitions, but it just seems to me that there isn't an understanding

on those different wings of the party, that if they do not correctly understand why they lost the last election and adjust accordingly, they are also going to lose the next one. And, you know, in the Kemi interview, I told the story about a Tory MP who said to me they lost to the Lib Dems.

Well, if that's your attitude, you're just, you're going to get destroyed by reform. That's just a fact. And the other problem is that I'm not, I think that the one thing a lot of politicians haven't caught up in this country is something that became quite obvious in America, which is the time for hedging your bets

and, you know, kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth and having a view that you have privately, but not expressing it publicly because you think it's going to offend people or whatever. I just don't think that's the moment we're in. I don't think that's the media environment we're in anymore, really. If, you know, as podcasts like ours become more prominent in the conversation, those same tactics just don't work nearly as well

on an hour, two-hour conversation where the presenters are really engaging with you in good faith, but they also expect their questions to be answered. And I think that's true across the political spectrum. I think Nigel Farage is the exception to that, but the reason he's an exception to that is, A, he's not really a politician or hasn't been for a long time,

but also because he has the luxury of being an outsider If he were in a position where he was leading one of the two major parties, he'd be getting asked much more difficult questions as well. And he would either have to take difficult positions. For example, he's never really been properly challenged on his views about the NHS because he knows what most people know it's not sustainable to have it free at the point of use. He knows that we're going to have to make some kind of adjustment.

Has he been pushed enough on that? Well, not so far, right? So, but I just, it just seems to me like the moment for political talk is kind of moving into the past. And as, as things, these conversations move into spaces like this, you're going to have to have politicians who are just prepared to say the truth, even if it's uncomfortable. And if they get criticized for it, they then turn the tables and say, look, I'm just saying what people are thinking. The media has now turned this into some kind of pantomime. It's very stupid. let's ignore them, let's just focus on this.

But then what you're asking for is politicians to have backbone integrity and courage. Yes. And we haven't had that for a long time in politics. But look at Trump, right? You can think Trump is the worst person ever. He has those things. Yeah. Now, you may dislike his policy positions, but he was prepared to say what he thinks, to say things that are politically incorrect but that need saying,

to do things that some people aren't going to like and are going to scream about. And, you know, other than Ukraine, when I look at everything that they're doing, I think this is incredible. Yeah. But I think one factor that we're missing in this conversation about Trump is British sensibilities. Yes, but this is the point that I've made a lot, especially privately. The British equivalent to Donald Trump does not have to look like Donald Trump. Donald Trump is a product of American culture and the thing that offends the sort of avocado toast brigade

in the UK about him is the way he talks. Well, guess what? It's kind of how most Americans talk. They're very direct or very to the point. They don't mess about. They say things in plain language. It's actually one of the big cultural differences between the UK.

Like even if you look at the way they name certain things, like if we have some kind of weird fruit, we have a Latin name for it, right, or something like that. They just call it a prickly pair. Yeah. What is it? It's a prickly pet. Yeah. So that kind of simple, direct approach is not necessarily exactly what we need.

We don't necessarily need someone who behaves in exactly the way that Trump does. We just need someone who is confident and comfortable in what they believe and is prepared to say, I believe this, even if you don't agree with me. Yeah. It sounds like what we need is actually a politician who's not afraid to embrace certain conservative. values. Well, I don't even look at them as conservative values, to be honest. I don't, I don't, look, you and I have this argument all the time, right? We were walking around London the other day, and you went to me, well, people keep saying I'm a conservative, and I've been thinking about that a lot. And I was like, there's nothing about what we are advocating for this conservative, and we had a big argument, which we can reproduce for people if you want. Yeah. I, well, it depends,

because it depends what you mean by conservatism. But if what you mean by conservatism is wanting to conserve the country, the country that we grew up in, with its values and its culture, if that's conservatism, then I would find it incredibly difficult to argue against that.

If wanting your country to retain the good about it makes you a conservative, then I'd imagine the overwhelming majority of all people are conservative. in that sense. Yes. But what I'm talking about from a party political dimension is something else, which is, what are the things that you and I really fundamentally believe about this country?

We believe that it should have a prosperous economy. We believe that it should have an aspirational mindset. We believe that illegal immigration is wrong and shouldn't be happening. We believe that this country should want to be influential and powerful in the world and seek to advance its worldview and values around the world, right? Tony Blair believed all those things. Yeah. All of them.

Yes. Tony Blair didn't want illegal immigration. Tony Blair wanted this country to be rich and prosperous. Tony Blair was elected on the promise of things being aspirational. And I'm not a Blair, right? I'm just saying within living memory, mine and yours, not someone who's in the 80s, all the things that you and I think about were consensus beliefs across the political spectrum. When I came to Britain in 1996, I'm tired of restating this, net legal immigration into Britain

was 55,000 people. And nobody cared about immigration in 1996. You know why? Because it wasn't a problem. British people are very reasonable when it comes to these issues, right? But what's happened is you've had such a mass wave of immigration that Lib Dems, Tories, a lot of labor people, reform all feel that both mass immigration and illegal immigration are both too high. Now, does that make you a conservative? I really don't think so. And I'm someone who believes that creative destruction is important, right? This is why I don't think of myself as conservative in that sense, because I think we need to be making progress. And progress means letting go of things that no longer work because technology changes, society changes, and whatever. What I don't

believe is this progressive retardation, which says you've got to take all the best things about your society and say they're actually the worst things about your society and throw them in the bin. So to me, this entire decade has not been about right versus left. It's been about progressive insanity versus everybody else. Now, I quite agree with you on that one. I think the element that you missed with the Blairite is the mass immigration really started under here. Yes. So, but broadly speaking, I'm in agreement with you. I guess for me, the issue is we have not defeated these hyper-liberals, progressive, whatever you want to call them in this country.

When I look at our current government, I actually, and people get, they start to give me stink high when I say this, I actually think Kirstama is very competent. And I think he's got a hell of a lot more integrity than the Conservative Party. Because he actually says what he thinks, by and large, and then he tries to implement the laws. You don't remember how a year ago you didn't know what a woman was? Right. Oh, yeah. Look, compared to a bit of, look, all politicians are supine and whatever, and bend what they think and whatever else.

My point is this, take freedom of speech. He's been very open that he wants hate speech laws. He's been very open. He did a video with Siddiq Khan talking about Islamophobia and the dangerous. of hate speech. They're talking, they're talking about having blasphemy laws in this country. It's much better than the conservatives, talked right, govern left. I don't know if it's better. No, it's not better. I'm just saying he's got more integrity. Yeah. Well, look, I think that what they're doing on taxes, on education, all of this other stuff,

is going to be terrible for this country. And ultimately, that is what matters, because that's what's going to make people suffer. Yeah. Right. But yeah, I agree with. Look, I think the reality is that I think there's been a big loss of faith in both the major political parties in this country. And the question is, is that, is reform and to some extent the Lib Dems too? Are they going to challenge that consensus? No. Well, I don't think the Lib Dems are.

I see the Lib Dems as completely useless. I don't actually know what the point of a Liberal Democrat is. They've got a lot more seats than reform. Well, that's true. But still, that has answered my question. What is the point of a liberal Democrat that don't believe in a liberal democracy and campaigned against Brexit once a Brexit referendum? I agree with you.

The position on Brexit was moronic. I'm just wondering whether... See, the big problem with reform is... Well, there's several problems in reform. The most obvious ones is that we don't live in a presidential system like the one that they have in America. Donald Trump needed him and a small team. and a small team of very influential, well-known people

to drive his campaign forward. He had what? Him, RFK, Tulsi, Elon, Vivek, J.D. Vance. Yes. That's basically it. Yes. Of the top tier. Of the top tier.

To reform, we're going to have to have several hundred candidates elected as MPs. And look, by all means, they're going to have the turquoise rosette pinned on them. But that's not going to necessarily win you in a little. election in a lot of constituencies, you're actually going to have to be an effective campaigner for that position. Where are they going to get 300 people to do that? It's a very good question. That's problem number one. Yes. Problem number two is, you know, we all know this as things become bigger and more successful, suddenly people start caring about who gets the credit and who's this and who's this and who's got how much power. And you already see these murmurings within reform. People are

saying, oh, you know, Nigel Farage needs to democratize the party and all this other stuff, which I have to say, as an outside observer, I really don't agree with. If you look at what happened in America, there's no doubt about the fact that Donald Trump is the singular leader in that whole thing. Everything goes through him. And I think if you're in the sort of position where you really have to make this kind of advance, you have to stick with the person who's the head of the organization. No, I completely agree with you, but then don't forget we're talking about politicians here. Yeah. And, you know, they're not averse to a little bit of the old backstabbing in order to

get what they want or get ahead or get to the position of power. That's going to be a big problem for reform going forward. I have no doubt about that. You know, that's their second challenge. So you've got the first one, which is where do you find DMPs? And the second one is what happens when the party starts doing well and suddenly everyone wants, you know, a bit more power, a bit more credit, you know? Yeah. And that's going to be another challenge for them. No, it's going to be a major challenge for them. And the other thing that they're going to really, really, really struggle with, I think, is, look, people are creatures of habit. They just are. You've got Tory voters, so it doesn't matter what the Tories can do. They could,

they could put up a paedophilic donkey, and people would still vote for them. I didn't know those existed, mate. Well, I'm sure you'd probably find it within the realms of the Conservative Party, right? And then you've got Labor. There are people who are just entrenched within those parties. It's going to take a lot for them to then say, I'm not going to vote Tory, I'm not going to vote Labor, I'm going to vote reform. And to a lot of people as well,

there is a hesitancy around Farage. There just is. And they see him as a toxic figure and a toxic influence. Can he be that unifying figure to bring people together and be able to mount a strong challenge for number 10. Well, he's not going to win over the Green Party voters, right, before when you talk about uniting figure, but what he needs to unite is the centre and the centre right.

That's what he needs to unite, right? Yeah, but for instance, my dad, who is centre-right, said, told me that he would never vote for him. What, even now? No. Why not? He just does. He, in his words, he's two right-wing. This episode sponsored by Maximus Tribe.

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He doesn't like his view on economics. Well, that is another huge problem for reform, because all the people at the top of the party are all small government people. And, you know, Matt Goodwin's been on our show at gazillion times to make this point, which is, you know, Britain is left wing on economics and right wing on culture. I've got to be honest for people and say the unpopular thing being left wing on economics isn't going to work it's not going to work this European attitude that we have and I contrast this with America where

they want to be unleashed to be free to do the things that they want to do to make money to build a business to be successful Europeans we want to be looked after I don't see that as an option going forward we're just that's not the economic climate that we're heading into. I couldn't agree with you more.

However, you've got to look at it from their point of view, which is, I've always been looked after. I quite like it, actually. It's quite nice, it's quite warm, it's quite comfortable. Tax the rich, yeah. Yeah, I want to continue to be looked after. Yeah, but the problem with this is, and this is just a mathematical point, right?

Forget about gut policy and policies and politics and everything. Right now, what is happening in this country is, the people at the very top, who are paying, people say, you know, the rich should bear the greatest burden and blah, blah, blah. It's all true. I am up for that. The people who are at the top,

the people who are earning, you're already struggling because it was only the 31st of January a couple of weeks ago, and your tax bill is not quite what it's been in previous years, as it, Francis. No, no. We're doing all right. Now send us money.

I'm getting PTSD, mate. I just remembered it. But look, neither you or I are in the top 1%, I'd imagine. But the top 1% pay so much tax. disproportionately to everybody else, right? Like, I think the top 1% pay something like 30% of all the income tax.

Yeah. Or all the tax, right? And the top 10% pay 60% of all the taxes. Fact check me on these figures, but I think that's right. Right? And what we're doing is we're putting taxes up to such a level that those of them who can leave or who can take their businesses to other places do.

Which is a lot of them. Which is a lot of them. And those that can't do not invest, do not hire people, do not start new businesses, there's shelf and mothball plans that they had. So what happens? What happens is there are fewer jobs and there's less tax revenue as a result.

So by raising taxes, you're going to kill the productive economy and you're actually probably going to hurt tax revenues as well. So how are you going to pay for all the social services that you want? The answer is mass immigration. Is that what you want? Because you can't have all of that. You can't have economic growth while chasing out the rich

and destroying productivity and industry, and also when you're in a demographic spiral and you aren't having enough kids. So if you're somebody who wants to be looked after, you've got to recognize either we need a massively growing economy or we're going to have to continue to import cheap labor from abroad. Is that what you want?

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anywhere else. Right now, trigonometry viewers who subscribe through our link can get 40% off the unlimited access vantage plan, the same plan we're using. use. Just click the link in the description or scan the QR code and subscribe at ground. dot news slash trigonometry. Your subscription helps ground news bring transparency back to the media, something that I fully support. Well, I don't think that people have woken up to this quite in the way that you describe. But that's what's happening. Yeah, that's the truth. I agree. I agree. And also, there is a punitive and people are going to get upset with me, but there is a vengeful punitive, and I love British culture and I love British people,

but there is one of the dark sides of our culture, one of the negative aspects, is there is a vengeful, punitive side to people who are successful, people are wealthy. There's a suspicion about it. And it comes down to this. Well, how did they get the money? I bet they screwed someone over to get it. It's not even screwed. I think screwed is more of a Russian mentality, actually, not inaccurate quite often in Russia.

I think in Britain it's because you have a history of the landed gentry. And in other words, you have people who are rich because their dad was rich, because his dad was rich, because his dad was rich. And it's not that they screwed someone over, it's that they didn't deserve it. It's that they were handed it on the silver platter. Right. And they grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth. And that just isn't true of modern Britain.

The overwhelming majority of people who are wealthy in this country are, wealthy because they've created things that are of value to their fellow human beings that they exchange for money. I agree with you. And there's also this element. And we used to sit in the tabloid newspapers when they were powerful of, you know, you build someone up, you knock them down. And we kind of love to do that. It's that cliche joke or quip where an American sees someone driving in a Ferrari and goes, one day, I'm going to drive a Ferrari. And a Brit will see a Ferrari and just key it. And I think there's this. There's a lot of, there's, there's something inside of us where we want, we want to do that to people we perceive as more successful

and wealthier than ourselves, and we want to punish. But the reality is, if you want to create a successful, wealthy, prosperous nation, you can't have that attitude. No, you can't. You've got to look at that person and go, right, so he's achieved X, I want to achieve X, what has he done? That's not going to say that it's going to work out for you or that you're going to buy the Ferrari, but what it is going to do is it means that you're going to improve your life and you are going to get better, wealthy and more successful as a result. That's our private helicopters just going to pick us up. I don't know if people would be able to pick up, but a helicopter just flew by.

So that's why you're exactly right. And that's why I say this thing about being left-wing on economics, I just don't think there's, the Tories were right when they said this or whoever or the labor. I don't even remember who said it anymore because it was so long ago. Whoever said there's no money left is correct. We're running debt above GDP levels. Yeah. Right?

Our economy is stagnating. We're raising taxes, which is going to depress economic activity. So this idea that we can just pump more and more and more money into public services, I just don't think it's true. And the problem is, as you say, that our attitude is not conducive to understanding this because if you remember when the Tories tried to do austerity, I use inverted commas because they really didn't cut by anything like what was needed. And everyone was up in arms saying they killed people, the policing, you know, and it's true. They did have to reduce

certain things. But, you know, I think there are two possible options for salvation from all of this. And both of them we're seeing in America at the same time. One of them is that you have, we just have to accept that whatever you think about saving the planet or whatever, what we're doing isn't going to save it. Net zero is not going to save the planet because we are responsible for 2% of global carbon emissions. Even if we put that at zero and all slit our throats, it's not going to change anything, right? We're not achieving anything. We're just making ourselves poor. And you can't run an economy without cheap energy. Okay. So drill baby drill is the right policy. It sounds crass because it's American, but that's, but it's exactly right. That's one.

The other thing is you're going to have to take not just a hammer, but a cleaver to government waste and not just government waste, but perfectly well-intentioned and perhaps useful projects that we just can't afford anymore. And that means cutting most of the civil service, cutting a lot of the government bureaucracy, cutting the quangos, the NGOs, the everything, and thereby freeing money up for investment and all. also freeing money off and paying off the huge debts that we're running. You know, I don't think people make this point enough, but the people that we're really screwing over this country are the young.

This whole debt situation, that's screwing them over. The fact, mass immigration, who's that? That's screwing them over. That's depressing their wages, and that's vastly reducing their chances of getting a job. And if you're a young person, chances are you don't. have ties to this country, really. You've got maximum mobility. When is the chance that you can go abroad? The best time for you is when you're young. So if I was graduating university of finishing a trade and I was in my early 20s, you'd look around at this place and go, why would I stay here? What is it offering me? What is this country actually giving me? And all it means is that I am going

to be working, even if I got, this is because something that's going to trigger people, 50 grand a year, at the moment, 50,000 pounds a year is seen as a good salary in the UK Very good salary. But it's not a good salary. No. It's a, you can't, if you factor in rent. If you're in London.

Yeah. Up north somewhere, 50 grand's a good salary. Yeah, but. Because you've got nothing to spend it. Yeah, exactly. You know, but for a lot of young people, but 50 grand, when you think of the taxes that you pay. And people are going to say,

oh, look at Constantine and Francis, they're making, That's not what we're saying. You go to Australia. I have a friend whose wife is a pediatric nurse. Yeah. Right? When she moved to Australia, not to America, to Australia, she doubled her salary the day she arrived.

People in Australia make way more money than we do. People in America would make way more money. Yeah. It always blows my mind. When I went over to America, I didn't realize lorry drivers get paid over 100K a year. And then you factor in bonuses. and overtimes, it's serious money that you can raise a family with.

Same in Australia. And you're looking at the wages that people get paid here. I was talking to a couple of American lads, and they worked, I can't remember, for something like KPMG, one of these big city firms. And they said, in America, they laugh at what they pay people in this country. They actually hand it around the office and go, here you go, boys. Look at this. This is hilarious.

So if you're young and you've got this same. which everyone told you is great, but actually means that you're taxed up to your eyeballs. You're never going to buy a house. You're never going to buy a house and you just about make it to the end of the month whilst working 60, 50-hour weeks. You were quite entitled to say, this is a crap deal. Well, see, this is a funny thing is we started out with this conversation with me denying being a conservative, which I still do. But then it's clear that what we're advocating is for is that you need to be right-wing on culture and right-wing on economics. But look, everything is a slider in these things, right?

It's not like, there are times when you need to raise taxes a little bit and you need to more government investment in certain things. There are times when you need to cut taxes and do the opposite. There are times when you need more immigration. There are times when you need less immigration. It just seems to me that we've been driving the car and it's been veering off to the left for so long. What's required now is a hard yank to the right.

Now, you want to stay in the middle of the road, but to get to the middle of the road, you're really going to have to make an adjustment. That's why I don't think that what we are is right wing or conservative. I just think we recognize that in order for the car to be in the sensible middle position, you have to stop it from veering off this far to the left. And if you look at both culture and economics in this country, we have gone so far to the left, so far to the left on all of that, on all the cultural issues, on the fucking trans thing, on the gender thing, on DEI, on mass immigration, on illegal immigration, all of that stuff, but also now on economics. I mean, the tax burden is unreal, right? And this isn't about me and you wanting to buy another car or whatever. This is about the fact that when you don't have businesses in your country, you don't have jobs. And when you don't have jobs, people not only don't have work, but they also don't pay the taxes.

And so your tax revenue goes down and then you really are screwed. And you want to something else as well? When things go bad, that is when you get riots, right? Do you think that if we were living through a 90-style economic boom, that those riots would have happened last year, even with all the terrorism and all the other stuff that's going on? I don't think so. I don't think people who have meaningful jobs and are happy because they can buy a house are going to go and smash shit up. I just don't, even if they're really angry about stuff.

Because ultimately what this comes down to is our GDP per capita is still below what it was before the great financial crisis. You're going to have to do something about the economy and tinkering with tax rates while committing ourselves to reducing our energy output and all of the stuff. It's just not going to work. No. It's not going to work. And everyone knows it. I don't think they do. I don't think they do.

I think the people who know, no. But I think... Okay, Donald Rumsfeld. But I think there's a lot of people, particularly younger people, who buy all of the climate stuff. And I think a lot of it, they're in Dreamland. And they don't see the connection between these green policies that we're pursuing and the outrageous

amounts that we pay on our energy bills. I don't think they make that connection. A lot of them don't know, you're right. In fact, I think the center and the center right has been so terrible at making the argument on this that I think if you said to most people, what do you think the cost of net zero is?

Do you know what I think the most common answer would be? Zero. I think they'd be surprised there was a cost. Yeah. And yet, it's probably one of the most expensive things that we're doing or going to do. And it's not a cost just in terms of money itself. We can't make our own steel that's military grade.

So if you can't, all these same people bang on about how we need to support Ukraine. How are you going to give Ukraine weapons if you don't have steel? And if you think about the major problems that are facing this country come from deindustrialization. If you go to a lot of towns where the industry and therefore the soul, has been ripped out of their communities. It's because of this. Thanks, Margaret. Thanks, Maggie, yeah.

And if you, all you have to do is step out of London and go to these places. It's tragic. And it's sad. Yeah. And people there have given up. Yeah. That's what they've done.

They've given up and they're living a life where they're going from welfare check to welfare check to welfare check. And it's awful because what you've done is you've demoralized someone and you've removed their agency. I don't care what anyone says. No one wants to live like that. Okay, there's a small subset of people who don't want to do anything. But the vast majority of people don't want that. Who wants that to live a life like that? It's dehumanizing. Yeah. And look, I believe a lot of this is a cultural mindset thing that could, you know, we have young people working for us, right? And with the exception

of one or two, right, they're pretty good. Yeah. They're driven and ambitious and work hard. and want opportunities and want to advance themselves, right? I think there are millions and millions of people like that in this country, but they need to have the opportunity to work for companies that have that same mindset that are going to give them those opportunities. And in order for that to happen, we're just going to have to change the way we do things. You know, a lot of... I was talking to John Anderson on his show about this.

You know, a lot of the time we think about Britain and its connection with the rest of the Anglosphere as a one-way thing. Like, we set up Australia, we set up New Zealand, we gave rise to the United States, and all of this other stuff. I really think we need to start thinking about it as a two-way membrane.

What can we learn from America? What are they doing differently? Why are they growing and we're not? Right? What can we do to take some of the things that work and bring them here? That's what we need to be thinking about. And there's also things that we export

to other places and they think are really good and valuable. That's how we should be looking at it. And let's be honest, America has become what Britain used to be, which is the center of Western civilization. We are on the periphery now, and it's our job to look at them and do what we're already doing anyway. We're already drink their soft drinks and watch their movies.

Why don't we actually take some of the stuff that works, too? I couldn't agree with you more. I really couldn't agree with you more, because to me, this feels like it's going to become existential pretty soon if it's not already. We cannot keep going down. this path. We cannot keep going down this path of continually borrowing, not investing in our young people, not taxing them to within an inch of their lives, giving them no hope whatsoever.

Why would you wouldn't want to be here and be young? And if that is the case, then what you're doing is essentially consigning a future generation to the scrap heap. Yeah. And that's a tragedy. And also, as we know, we've got an episode of Dr. Paul Morland coming out about demographics. People in this country aren't having enough kids already. You want to make it harder for them? You want to make it harder for them to get on the housing ladder? I mean, our producer, we can't get them to propose to his misses. Exactly.

Let alone have a baby. Yeah. What are you going to do, Jack? Yeah, exactly. When are you going to up your game? Yeah. Yeah. You said no comment.

This is the kind of defeatism that we're dealing with. Exactly. And if you're watching his misses, I don't know. name. He gets paid pretty well. Don't believe what he tells you. Don't believe what he tells you. Although, to be fair, as we just said, he gets taxed up to his eyeballs, so he probably doesn't take some about 20 quid a month. Yeah. But no.

Which is all that he deserves. And, but if you're young, you wouldn't want to be here. And young people are the ones who have kids. That's not a controversial statement. No. No. And so, demographically, we're just going to screw ourselves even more. So we're not going to have people to come in. and work. So what are you going to do? You've got to import them. Because otherwise, there's

literally nobody to do any work. And then we've spoken about this with Nigel and other people and Fraser Nelson, we have got a very sizable percentage of the population who are registered as disabled and sick. It's a pretty unhealthy, toxic combination. Yeah. Which, so I actually transition from lefty comedians to right-wing influences is complete. But I don't know what else to say. If anyone can explain to me why we're wrong and what we're saying here, I never wanted to be a right-wing influencer. That wasn't what I set out to be at all.

But all you and I have done throughout the seven years we've been doing the show is we've looked at the world as we see it. I'm sure our filters are not perfect. no one's filters are, and try to call it play by play as we see it. Yeah. Right. And what that's led us to is the realization that the left has become something else, not what it was when we were on the left.

And the mainstream right isn't really that much different and totally useless and incompetent. And a lot of them will privately say, oh, yeah, you're totally right, but not do anything when it comes to. And look, they've all got a great. The civil service, their colleagues, the this, the that, and whatever. I don't blame them. I'm not saying I would do a better job. But the ultimate reality is if you can't vote your way out of this by voting for the major parties,

people are going to start voting for other parties. Or, as we're seeing with young people, they're going to start to say, you keep banging on about democracy. What's good about it? What's good about it? Show me. Show me in my life. What's good about democracy?

I don't like what's happening in my country right now. We are one of the richest, most powerful countries in the world still. And I can't vote my way out of this. I can't get out of this. So what reason do they have to believe that democracy is good? Yeah. Right. And that to me is the huge challenge.

You know, we had this conversation with Kemi right at the end of the interview, and I think it's really important to say this. we can't keep saying to people, you know, democracy, liberalism, blah, blah, blah, when those things are not delivering what people want. I never signed up to an ideology. I just think I want my country to be prosperous. I want people in it to be happy to have a sense of community. And I want the leaders to be accountable to the people.

In other words, for them to do the things that they promise. Have we had that? No. No. As I said to Kemi when we interviewed her, and to quote her in a speech, you know, we talked right and governed left. So what does that effectively mean? It means that you gaslit a nation by promising them that you were going to do something

and doing the exact opposite. And tell me that that is not going to affect people and damage their view of democracy and their faith in the entire system. You can only do that to people for so long. It's like a relationship. If people tell you one thing and do another, eventually, it doesn't matter what any type of relationship, friendship, business, romantic, you're going to go, I cannot trust this person. This person does not respect me.

I cannot be in this relationship with them. And that's rapidly where we're approaching. You know, Labour can talk about a landslide victory and in some ways they did. But you look at the actual turnout for people for Labor, it was woeful. It was woeful. And that's really worrying because what that's saying is people are going, I have no faith in this system. And you can't carry on with that. That can only carry on for so long before something ugly happens.

Yeah. Got you depressed there, didn't I? You have. But we're going to have to bounce off the bottom is what's going to happen. Absolutely. It's what's going to have to happen here. And my, if there is a sense of optimism to be found, is I think, things are going to get so bad,

people aren't going to be able to ignore it anymore. And, you know, we were joking around about this, but if you had blackouts in this country, people would suddenly start asking questions about net zero. They would. And I think, I genuinely think, the only way

these things are going to get better is if they get a lot worse first. I don't see that. Otherwise, that we talked about your dad saying, well, you know, he's too right way and we can't have this, we can't have that. That mindset is going to continue. And people will just say, oh, the government's incompetent, or the government, it's not about government incompetence at this point. That's not what's happening. The whole mindset is wrong. Yeah. It's just wrong. Our entire politics is infested with this rot.

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I see our country as very much somebody who is an addict. We're addicted to mass immigration. We're addicted to debt. And we're addicted like all addicts to not face up to the truth. And we've been lying to ourselves. because that's what addicts do. We just lie to ourselves day in, day out, so that we can justify our own terrible habits.

Eventually, you're going to hit rock bottom or you die. Those are your two choices. So what are you going to do? Hit rock bottom and change? And I've seen plenty of people change and transform their lives and go from being someone deeply, deeply broken to being outrageously successful. That's option A.

Or there's option B, which is that you die. And pretty soon we're going to be faced with those two options. And I really don't know about that. I don't know that we're going to be faced with the option of dying. I think most people are going to muddle through. And as long as they can muddle through, they won't take this seriously. That's the concern. No, but the point is eventually you come to the fork in the road.

Eventually. Other than blackouts, let's say, how do you come to that fork in the road? We become economically bankrupt. We can no longer afford certain things. all of a sudden infrastructure starts visibly crumbling. It is visibly crumbling. Well, it's going to get worse.

Yeah, but then we just make a joke about it. That's the problem. Would you go all the trains that lay again? Oh, ha, ha, British trains. But it becomes more serious than trains being late. Like what? It becomes things like we have blackouts and then a generator fails in a hospital

and then 20 people die in an ICU. That level, like Venezuela level. That, when it gets to, So when the dead aren't getting collected in the streets, when the rubbish isn't getting collected, when people are looking around and going, what the hell is going on here? I think that's what it would take for people to change.

I just think most people are living in Clio-Cucculand in this country. I really do. I think they're completely unaware. And that's where the idea, or we just, you know, the government needs to look after us a bit more. I wish it could, but that ain't the reality on the ground.

reality is we've maxed out our credit card and we don't have any more money. And either you're going to have to cut spending or you're going to have to grow your way out of it. Now, I think I just don't see, I think you're going to have to grow your way out of it and cut a lot of waste and a lot of things that are nice to have is when you can afford them, but you can't afford them anymore. But that's going to be painful for a lot of people. You know, at a personal and ideological level, a lot of people don't want us to see to see us cut foreign aid. And I don't want to see us cut foreign aid if it's making a positive impact.

But that might be what you have to do. I give quite a lot of my income to charity. But if my income was to go down by 50%, I'd probably give less. It's not because I become less charitable. It's because I'm balancing up the reality of my spending and income. Yeah. That's, I think, where we are. I don't think people realize we're just not as rich as we used to be. We're as rich as we used to be. And also, there's the older generation who have become used to a certain way of living, and they've become very, very used to government being a certain way. And as a result of the fact that there are more old people in this country than young people, and also because old people more likely to vote, politicians pander to old people, understandably so. But there's

only so long that you can continue ignoring young people. And essentially, prioritising older people, you can't keep doing that. You can't keep, because they're the future. They're the future and you can't, and I use this word and I use it accurate, you can't keep betraying young people. If you look at COVID, what was COVID? But protecting the older and just saying to the young people, tough. And you can't keep doing that. And unless you don't care about the backlash, and there will be a backlash of some sort. Well, we see with young men, in particular, the reform did incredibly well. And is polling very well with them.

And it makes sense for all sorts of reasons. It makes sense. The other potential positive is, you know, what's happening in America is going to be a very big contrast. Yeah. And to the extent that we can... See, I often think that you and I are genuinely in a very privileged position is that we do get to travel a lot

and see other parts of the world in a way that most people don't have the opportunity to. and they therefore do not know what it's like when you're on the ground in America. There is a sense of optimism like you haven't seen. There is a sense of opportunity like you haven't seen. There's a sense of ambition that you haven't seen. There's a sense of our country is on the right path now. And we're going to start businesses.

We're going to make money. We're going to have families. We're going to buy all of this stuff. Things are now possible. That's the sense, right? And how do you succeed without that? Think about it. It's a very un-British thing to say, but still, think about it.

Do you think that, I nearly said Man United, but Man United haven't been successful for a long time? But do you think an elite football team goes on the pitch and succeeds if they think, yeah, you know, we'll give it a go, we'll see what happens, mate, Yeah, we'll give it our best. No. If you want to succeed, you have to go on the pitch with the belief in yourself.

Yeah. That you, your team, the thing that you stand for is a good thing that you believe and you want that thing to succeed. You're working together with other people. You have to have that attitude for any group of people, whether that's a team or a nation or a business or a community to be successful. They have to believe in themselves and in the mission. Absolutely they do. And we have to bring that attitude out of, of, of a business. ourselves in this country. I really think that.

And one of the things that I find so sad is when you see young people and they talk about this country and they say it's terrible. And, you know, the British, Britain hasn't done anything for the world. And what was Britain given the world? And you go, you go, I remember when I used to go to Venezuela as a kid and the moment I told people that I was from London, the look on their face, they'd be like, oh my God, I love the music. you know, the bands, the culture, the art, they would be excited.

They wanted to talk, what was London like? You know, you could see their eyes light up. And it's so heartbreaking to see this generation who've been effectively demoralized by the boomers and late Gen X. And there's just no hope. There's no hope. There's no passion. And it's sad because if you're not going to have hope, passion, ambition. when you're young.

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The truth is, for a very, very long time, you have been lied to. You've been lied to about your history. You've been told that your society is racist and sexist and misogynistic and evil in every other way. And that's not to say that these things don't exist in Western societies.

It's not to say they don't exist in British society. but on those metrics, Britain and other Western countries lead the world. If you are a black woman or you're gay or you're trans, where would you rather live than in Britain, in Canada, in America, in Australia, in New Zealand? There is no better place. And so we have been demonized on the basis of something that we are actually leading the world in,

in terms of tolerance and inclusivity and all these things. So the first thing I think we have to do. do is just acknowledge that we have been lied to. The lies about our history, the lies about people like Winston Churchill, who is a hero who saved this country, all of the lies about that. This is one of the reasons we had so many historians on to talk about things like slavery. Slavery is portrayed as Britain's original sin, when the truth is that slavery was practiced by every great civilization in history, and Britain was the first empire in history to end it. The question we should be asking is not why are we so evil or why our ancestors so evil.

The question we should be asking is, what was it about Britain that caused people to want to end slavery and to realize that it's evil when everybody else still thought it was good? Right. Those are the questions we should be asking. And so the first thing we have to say is our history on balance is very good. Our values on balance are very good. That's why millions of people want to come here. Yeah. Right.

And you and I, you know, neither of us is, got a PhD in history of philosophy, but you don't have to know why honey is sweet to observe that all the bears flock to it when they see it, right? And that's what's happening. Human beings seem to love Western societies. Maybe that's a sign that they're good, right?

That's what we should be saying, and I think this self-loathing thing, we're just going to have to let it go. We have to let it go, and we have to, because it's toxic and it's destroying. When you self-loathe, it destroys everything. It destroys everything.

It emanates from you. You cannot be happy or successful or fulfilled if you are self-loathing. The two simply don't go together. And it's come to a point where we need to stop this. And also, what we need to do are the malevolent actors, and we know who they are, we need to be able to stand up to them.

We have had a deficit in this country. We've had an economic deficit. We've had all different types of deficits in this country. But we have had even more severe than the economic deficit is a deficit of courage. And it's now come to the point where we just need to go, no, enough is enough. This is not a racist country. There are not white supremacists rampaging through the streets, unless Millwall are playing, in which case, you know, fair enough. But, you know, there's not white supremacists rampaging through the streets.

This isn't a patriarchy. It's enough now. It's enough and we need to stand up to those people and go no more. And the people who say things like, oh, you know, we need blasphemy laws in this country. Go, no, if you want blasphemy laws, go get yourself a one-way ticket to Tehran. Go and live there. Enjoy it. You've got the option.

Go and live in a place where that is practiced. If you want to bring Sharia law into this country, no. Go into a place. If that's what you want, fair enough. Entitled to your views. Go and live in a country of Sharia law. It's enough now. It is enough. And people need to be stronger. I no longer have the time for people come up to me and go, oh, thank you for saying this because I wouldn't. Well, then we're never going to

change. It's like I was in a comedy club. And this comedian came up to me and did a little joke and went, oh, I agree with what you say. I wouldn't say it. Then never ever complain about your industry, the culture, or your own career, or your own aspirations, or not being able to. to do the comedy that you want to do. You have no right. It's come to the point now where you either get off the fence and make a difference or you just sit there and do nothing and whine. And what is it going to be? This podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. Are you still putting off saving and investing because you'll get to it someday? Stash turned someday into today. Stash isn't just an investing app. It's a registered investment advisor that combines ultimately,

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not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. Investment advisory service. offered by Stash Investments, LLC and SEC-registered investment advisor. Investing involves risk, and investments may lose value. Offer is subject to T's and C's. Well, I think the good news is, and you see this in America, is I say this with no disrespect and not in any elitist way, but you've just seen that a lot of people are just, they're just sheep. And they follow whatever the trend is. and keep their head down, and it doesn't take everybody.

It just takes enough people to say something and to change the direction of travel, and then suddenly Evan falls in line. Look at this with the big tech companies. They used to be at the forefront of censorship. The moment there's a pro-free speech presidency, suddenly, in fact, before. When they sense the tide turning, what do they do?

They all lead the way. Zuckerberg is on Joe Rogan's show talking about free speech and all of this other stuff. And good on him. I'm glad he's changed as mine. The fact is, most people went along with all this woke shit

because it's easier. And what it takes is enough people to actually be courageous and then the culture changes. Yeah. And that's the opportunity. The terrible things

that the UK is about to face is that opportunity for enough people to suddenly realize this can't go on. This is not sustainable. And that's what I think is going to take.

Yeah. Because otherwise, it's decline all the way down. There won't be any coming back from this. If you deindustrialize your country and pass even more woke legislation, there is no coming back from this. This is what people in the West really don't realize is you think that what you have is forever. It's not forever. If you pull the foundations of the house, the house doesn't keep standing.

It crumbles. And this is the choice that we've faced. Agreed. And there has to come a point where things will change. There has to, because we can't keep going down this path. This is unsustainable. It is literally unsustainable. And like I said before, there will come a fork in the road and where you have to make a choice and what is it that you want? And I love this country and so do you. And a large part of the reason we started this show is because we felt that it was going in the wrong direction. We didn't know the reasons why we weren't, but we felt that there was something wrong, which a lot of people do, because a lot of

people are walking around now and going, something is wrong. But it is a responsibility of every single person in this country. This is your country. This is your culture. This is your home. What are you going to do? Are you going to change it? Are you going to make a difference? Are you going to stand up for what you think and believe? Or are you just going to go, oh, well, you know, I don't want this to happen and I don't want to get into an argument. There comes a point in life where you have to fight for what it is that you believe and you have to fight for what you think is right. It comes, that's it in everybody's life.

You ain't going to avoid it. I'm sorry, I know that your life is comfortable now. And when it comes to comfort, you are the most comfortable people. We all are. And you know what? We're lucky. This isn't even that bad. My grandfather was, I think, 23.

So my grandfather, when he left, he had to leave school. He was a very, very bright guy. Grew up in a very poor working class part of the north of England. He had to leave school at 14. He couldn't do exams because he had to help to go out to work to provide for his family. In the 1930s, in the Great Depression, he used to go to the dock in Liverpool in order to get work. There'd be hundreds of men. Just wait there for hours in the rain in Liverpool. The foreman would come out, look at hundreds of men. and go, you, you, you, the rest of you fuck off. And then he'd go back with nothing.

And so you get through that. And just when you're starting to make a little bit of headway, he got to be a joiner, 1939. Then the war started. Then he went to war. Then he fought all the way from North Africa, right the way up to the top of Italy, fought against Nazis in the desert.

It ain't that. But I think that's why it's harder. That's why it's harder. Because if you said to people now, Hitler is invaded, we've declared war, go serve your country. That's simply. It's not easier, but it's simpler. You know what to do. The problem with this stuff is a lot of people have no idea what to do.

And that's why I think we've been in the Malays that we've been in. because you can't point at a breach and send men into the breach. Where's the breach? What are they supposed to do? Or you're supposed to stand up at work and go, I don't think DEI is the right thing? Okay.

Are you going to achieve anything? Are you? That's the difficulty, is that a lot of people simply do not know what to do. And that's why I think you have to, this is all going to begin at the elite level, so to speak. It's going to begin in politics, in the media and culture. That's where it gets turned around.

And then it gives everybody permission to join in. That's what happened in America. Look, just remember, in 2016, half of the Republican Party hated Donald Trump. Yeah. Most of the country found him deeply obnoxious and unacceptable, right? And then miraculously, he was elected anyway. But that was the impression you had. Everybody thought he was an idiot, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's going to have to be the same here. It's going to have to change it in terms of the conversations people are having. And I think it all begins with understanding that actually we do want Britain to be great Britain. We want it to be great. You know, people used to laugh. Even now, people will laugh, oh, you want to make Britain great again. I want Britain to be great. Is it great now?

I don't think so. So that means we're going to have to make a great again. It's just a logical sequence of things, right? We're going to have to make it better than what it is. But there is something that people can do because the amount of people that talk to me, I don't know if you get the same ago, or thank you for saying this or whatever it is. You know, I wouldn't say that to my friends. No, it's time to start saying it to your friends.

And it's time to start saying to your family. That's when you can take responsibility. The point about standing up in the office about DIY fair. But you can say to your friends when they're banging on and go, well, I don't see, you know, there's no such thing as male and female. You're like, I think there is, mate. I think there is, actually. The bloke wandering over there with a mini skirt with his knob hanging out,

I don't think it's a woman. Sorry, it's not a woman. Can we disagree on that? Because otherwise, what happens is we get to the point where the bloke wandering around a mini skirt and his knob hanging out is a woman. Even though you haven't stated it in the most profound way, that is actually a very profound point that Soljianitsyn made. He said, let the lies pass through the world, but not through me.

not through me. And when enough people stop lying or stop allowing lies to be said in their presence, this will change. Yeah. And if enough people go, no, no, it's no. I don't agree, actually. And I think that is, I mean,

the stat that Kemi gave us about the fact that both Lib Dems, conservatives and reform, and probably a large chunk of labor too, are really concerned about illegal immigration. That just shows you that most people are seeing what's going on. Of course.

on a lot of this stuff. But they, like you said, they need to speak up. They all need to. And people, again, I just want to say this as well because people look at, oh, you guys have a big YouTube channel and you're, when we started this, do you remember when we started this? I try and forget, but yes. We started not only with nothing,

we started in an Uber woke comedy industry, relying on the help of Uber woke comedians. Yeah. We're grateful for the help, by the way. But we always knew we were going to get ostracized by our colleagues. We always knew that we were liable to be kicked out of the studio that we eventually got kicked out of and all this other stuff. We are only inviting people to do exactly what we did. And I don't think that's unreasonable.

No. We're saying, look, you've got to stand up for what you believe. Because if you don't, the thing you believe is going to disappear. Yeah. And ultimately, if you love something and you believe in it, then there's going to become a time where it's going to come under threat, whatever it is, whether it's your society, your culture, your child. And it's your job as an adult, as an adult, to stand up and go, no, enough is enough.

You don't get to do this anymore. We're done. And if enough people will do this, do this, if everybody did that tomorrow, be over. it'd be over. Agreed. All right, head on over to our substack where we continue the conversation with your questions.

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