TRIGGERnometry - The TRUTH About Porn with Eva Lovia

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

Candice Horbacz aka Eva Lovia is a former porn actress who now hosts the podcast and YouTube channel Chatting With Candice https://www.youtube.com/c/CandiceHorbacz/featured Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So what are some of the big myths about the porn industry that you think are not true? Oh, man. Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen. And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today used to be known by her professional name Eva Lovier. Candice Holbeck, welcome to Trigonometry. You are, of course, a former porn actress and now turned podcast and commentator.

Yes, thank you guys for having me. It's so good to have you on the show. Listen, before we get into, I should first of all say, you're the only guest where I haven't said I'm a huge fan of your work for obvious reasons. But also tell everybody a little bit about your backstory. Who are you? How are you where you are? What has been your journey through life leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

Oh, man. Okay, so I guess like 10,000 foot view would be I've spent over a decade in the adult industry. I kind of navigated the mainstream version of that and then slowly transitioned to self-producing and now the only fans model, which is, you know, very popular right now. And a lot of people are talking about that. And then I would say somewhere in the middle of that, I decided to start a podcast just like everyone else, you know, during quarantine and lockdown. So I got inspired to do it mostly because I just saw a lot of conversations that were being. being had on one side. And I feel like no one was really representing thoughts that I thought were important in conversations that I thought were important or asking tough questions because I'm in

this rare space where I can't be canceled. So I was like, well, let's see what we can do with that and run with it. Well, we like people who can't be canceled because they're the ones that the only ones nowadays who can have an honest conversation, which is what we tried to do. So very much in that spirit, Can you just start us off by telling us some basic stuff about, you know, how did you get into the adult film industry and why, what motivates you to do that? Oh, man. It was, it's going to sound kind of crazy, but to some extent I've always been fascinated by sexuality and kind of the energy and power that comes with that, even from a very young age. I was often like idolizing women like Pamela Anderson and Carmen Electra and the Playboy bunnies. And I don't know. I felt like there was some kind of freedom that came along with

like realizing your sexual potential. And then for me, it just, it seemed like that's just who I was. It wasn't for the money. It wasn't to get super famous. It just kind of felt like a part of me. So I kind of dipped my toe in with just like implied modeling, like something that you'd see in magazines, you know, not showing anything. And I just kind of got bored. And I was like, well, that's not what I really want to do. I want to do these big pictures. And I want to be doing these big movies. And I want to see what it's like to be on a proper set. So I reached out to a company in Florida. And I was like, I don't really know how this works. Like do you audition? Like how like how mainstream is this? How does it go? And they were like, just send us a couple selfies. And I, did, and then they flew me down to Florida, and the rest was history. And so how long did you work in the mainstream industry for? Oh, man, I'd say probably five to six years. It was pretty short. I've spent probably just as much time now on the opposite side of it, just self-producing and doing the more amateur approach as I did in the mainstream industry.

And whenever there's been an expose of the porn industry on TV, it always, you looks, I'm going to be using technical language here, it looks fucking awful. Is it actually like that? It looks deeply exploitative. It looks deeply misogynistic. And nobody comes out of it in a good way. Or is that just the TV trying to moralize,

trying to put this narrative across? So I think two things can be true at once, right? And I think being exploited isn't unique to the adult industry, especially when it comes to women. I think, you know, we can be harassed in any industry. It's, you look at, you know, the music business or look at mainstream Hollywood, um, anywhere, really, it can exist. I think it's just, it has more of that visceral response because it's such an intimate industry. So we really don't like when we see it and it's happening,

um, quite literally, right? Like you have an assault or something that happens on set. So, I mean, that absolutely does happen. And it's not to take away from, um, the people that are victims within, like the sex trade. But I wouldn't say that that's the norm. I wouldn't say that. that the vast majority of porn is leading to human trafficking, which seems to kind of be the narrative right now. And if that were true, then if you were to look at countries like Nepal where porn is illegal, you would expect that there's no trafficking, right? And there would be no women or children that are being exploited, but that's really not the case. I have a huge trafficking issue in that country. So, yeah, I think both things can be true. I think it depends on why you got in, too, right?

Like if you go in because it's a curiosity or it's a part of like something that you want to explore versus I have a bill to pay and I'm just doing this out of survival. I think the outcome is going to be dependent on that. And I mean, you talked. I was watching one of your interviews where you talked about performing with one particular person I think in the UK. And you were saying that this person was, you know, not respectful, not a good person and made you feel deeply. uncomfortable. Was that the norm or is that actually an aberration? And most people in it are just professionals. It's like turning up to the office. You turn up with your cup of coffee, you walk in, and you do what you need to do. So I think my case is a little bit unique. When I started shooting

more of the hardcore stuff, I always had a yes list. So everyone that I would work with that was a man had to like check off certain boxes for me. So I was very particular who I was going to work with in the States. I didn't really know anyone when I came over to shoot in the UK, so I kind of just had to ask around as to, like, who people would recommend. For one of the bigger pictures we did, someone was on this, or I got booked with someone that I didn't really know anything about. And I was like, it won't be a big deal. You know, I've been doing this for years now. It's just a scene, right? And I don't know if it was just, I don't know if he was trying to act or if he was nervous, maybe because of who I was, because I was a really big name at the time. And I don't know if it was.

and he was a UK performer and they don't really have the same amount of like star power quote unquote. So I don't know what was going on. It was really uncomfortable. No one really said anything. So I don't know if that's normal for most women, if they just work with random people that show up on set. I know that was very unusual for me because again, like I had a yes list.

So everyone on it was like a superstar, like very respectful, very professional, would never put me in harm's way. is just one of those rare instances where I worked with someone off of my list. And I was like, well, this is why I have a list. This is why that exists. So it sounds like you were in a position of actually quite a lot of power compared to many other people, I would imagine, in industry, being a big name, etc. Do you think that that is possibly why you had fewer issues with that sort of thing? Do you think that it's more common for people sort of lower down the pecking order to be exploited?

I mean, as comedians, it's obviously a different industry, but I can tell you it's kind of the same. Like, the lower down the pecking order you are in comedy, the more you know, you get asked to do things for no money. You get asked to do things that you're not necessarily keen to do, to travel further than you'd like, all that sort of stuff. So do you think that you were sort of somewhat insulated from some of the problems that people often associate with porn because of who you were? Definitely. Because, I mean, even the stuff, anything dicey that I even did have to go through. through my career. I think that's, so I actually got fired from my contract. And it was one of like the final decisions before I started self-producing. So I got fired because I was like one of the main and like original contract girls for my era of of Porn Star. And we started getting new contract

girls. And I just saw stuff that I wasn't okay with. And then I saw what they were doing to me. I saw what they were doing to her. And I was like, well, if they're doing this to people that have these really large social platforms. I can't imagine what they're doing to someone who has nothing, right? Because they can shout into this void and no one's going to know. So I took to Twitter about it. Sorry to interrupt. By making them do things that you're uncomfortable with. What are we actually talking about here? So I would say like something really simple, right, like a contract. So they sent me my contract and I had to obviously send it to my lawyer and have it reviewed and make adjustments and send it back and they acted like this was preposterous right like no one does this you just sign it was

like well that's ridiculous they should right so this girl um that was getting signed her agent was like no no no just sign it you don't need to send it to a lawyer eva's just a diva like don't you don't want to be difficult like that right so she signs this contract i don't know what hers said i know what mine said and i can imagine it was pretty similar to my original version um typically when it comes to sex acts and especially if you're contracted, everything is kind of laid out like a menu. So it's like, okay, this act is for this price. And all of these are my yeses. All of these are noes. Like, don't even bring it to me. I don't do them. So for example, it seems obvious, but if you were to work in a group scene, you would expect to get paid more money. Right. And if it's not listed,

you would expect that that conversation would be had if you were comfortable with that. So I was in a particular situation where I showed up across the sea, right? I show up in the U.K., and all of a sudden, it's this huge group scene, and I don't do those. And they're like, well, you're already here. You have to do it. I was like, that's not how it works. So it was like this huge argument. Obviously, I didn't end up going through with it because that wasn't, you know, that wasn't something I was comfortable with.

But the other girl did because she, you know, didn't want to cause a stir. And she didn't get paid extra. And it's like you were being taken advantage of so clear. clearly. And she was such a sweet girl. She didn't want to be disagreeable. You know, she wanted to keep her head down. She really loved what she was doing. She loved her opportunities. You know what I mean? Working for this very large company. So I was like, well, if no one else is going to say something, I'm going to. So I took it. Well, it sounds like, can you start to interrupt? It sounds like exactly the sort of thing people experience in every industry

across the spectrum. I've been in those positions and often found myself being the odd one out as well. which is why I've ended up doing this. But the problem is, for me at least, and, you know, talk to me, talk me out of this if you can, that, you know, if someone wants me to work for less money or do this or do that, at the end of the day, I'm not selling something as intimate as sex, whereas here someone is being put in a position where, like you say, they may be sweet, maybe they're a little bit fearful of upsetting people, et cetera. and the end result is they end up having sex with a bunch of people that they never wanted to in the first place.

And that I think is where a lot of people have the feeling that porn is uniquely exploitative. Would you agree with that? I think it depends on the mindset. So it's going to maybe sound a little callous or, I don't know. I just think some people can have very casual sex and it doesn't leave a trauma, right? Like they can be, they can kind of dissociate. And then other people can't. I would say most people can't.

So it depends on the person. I would imagine, yes, if I felt like I was in a position where I ended up having sex with five people and I didn't want to, like I can imagine that's a really big regret. And then how do you deal with that? I don't know. Especially because you leave, like, let's say you leave the industry and you go to a society that's not really accepting of those decisions. So now you kind of are cast away. So I would say like it's it's very easy to blame just the porn, but you also have to take into account everything after the fact, right? Like do you have a support system to go to? Do you have a community that's willing to let you, to give you grace?

So it's like a very weird and big problem. Yeah. I hear what you're saying, but it's it doesn't sound quite right to me in the sense of like, well, sure, you want a community of supportive people. But at the end of the day, I don't think anyone wants people to be in a position where they're encouraged or coerced or forced or whatever the word is to be doing things sexually that they don't want to do. Totally. I think that's where a lot of people have an issue with the industry of porn. Sure, you can have supportive people hold your hand afterwards and you'd hope everyone gets the support they need. But in the real, in the ideal world, that wouldn't be happening in the first place. Right.

And then you would have to also say, though, is that unique? Like, again, it feels, it feels different, right? Because it's such an intimate industry. But if you talk to some people, like this one girl, before she got into, like, the sex industry, she was working in, like, a basement factory for 16 to 18 hours a day for, like, $8 an hour. She never saw the sunlight. Like, you can't, like, trauma exists everywhere, right? We have people that are suffering from immense amounts of depression.

and anxiety, lack of purpose and fulfillment, and they're really hurting. And I wouldn't say that that's unique to just a sexual exploitation. I think you can be exploited anywhere. And it just feels worse because it's your body that's being exploited. But I could argue that if your soul or your mind is being exploited, that's just as bad. But I suppose the one thing that I would push back on you there, Candice, is let's say that you're, you go and work in a factory. you know, we've all done menial jobs I certainly have. They're all depressing,

you know, it's unfulfilling, etc, etc., etc. But if you're pushed into when you're doing pornography into something that you are not comfortable with, that you feel as if you were somehow being degraded, there's the extra element where that content

could then be uploaded to a site like Pornhub, and then it could be watched by perpetually millions of people. Doesn't that also come into play? Oh, 100%. And I'm really hopeful with the way that things seem to be moving when it comes to, like, decentralized platforms and blockchain, that that is going to be like a huge alternative to the current model. Because I do think that there should be some kind of discourse if, let's say you have one of these scenes, right? And there was something questionable that happened or maybe you were abused or maybe you weren't consenting. Like, that should be taken down 100%. It should be without a question. Unfortunately, that we obviously know that doesn't happen. We know that porn hub had to delete a whole bunch of videos because of this. And even stuff that you might see on like a site like browsers or bangbros. There's probably

a lot of young women that are like, I wish that scene wasn't out. And there's no, there's no course for them to even have that conversation. You can go to them. The contract that you signed prior to shooting is like in perpetuity. This is going to exist. In any other industry, you can't say in perpetuity, but with something that intimate you can, it doesn't really make sense. So I think when it comes to blockchain and NFTs, you're going to have the creators that are owning that content and that they're going to be able to either add it or remove it. Yeah. And I was going to ask you as well in terms of the situation with porn, and you started said at the beginning that you were addressing some of the things that people sometimes maybe

think about it that aren't true. So what are some of the big myths about the porn industry that you think are not true? Oh, man. I would, well, the first and obvious one is that everyone in it is being exploited. That's just not true. Again, it exists, but I wouldn't even say that's the majority. I would say that one of the more recent talking points is that it ruins masculinity or that it creates a type of sexual autism, which I feel like it's kind of cherry picking the way that we're interpreting data. So yes, if you watch a ridiculous amount of porn, it's to be assumed that you're going to show up a little bit different in the bedroom and you might not recognize your partner's cues. You might be very selfish. You might not understand their boundaries. But that's not unique to

porn. So if you spend a lot of time on social media, you'll actually show those same signs in just regular conversations. So you won't be able to pick up on like facial responses and other forms of like non-verbal communication. So yes, that's in porn, but that's just like too much screen time period. So I'd say those are probably the most common ones. Hey, KK, do you like feeling silky and smooth like a sexual dolphin?

Never talk to me again? What if I told you that Manscape to brought out a new and improved lawmower 3.0 that allows you to be fresh and trimmed for the ladies down below? I'm married. The last time I was friends, impression trimmed down below Jimmy Saville was a respected children's entertainer. I'm going to ignore that. The lawn mower has a cutting-edge ceramic blade which reduces the risk of having an accident where you least want an accident.

My bank account? No, you idiot. You know, lost wear boss. Oh, right. Plus it's waterproof which means you can groom in the shower and it has an LED light so you can really get an accurate and precise trim. Excellent. Sounds great. What's the battery light. 90 minutes so you can do your whole area in about seven recharges. To take advantage of this incredible offer, go to manscape.com and you'll get 20% off with free shipping. Just use our code, which is of course trigger two zero. That is trigger two zero. That's 20% off with free shipping at manscaped.com and use our code which is of course trigger two zero. You're wherever We'll thank you.

Excellent. You say that people don't get exploited. Is there an average type of person who gets involved in this industry? Do you have to have an exhibitionist streaking you? Is it somebody who has always wanted to? Or is it, as a mainstream media says, you know, it's the girl who typically gets into porn young, who typically is hypersexualized because of sexual abuse, etc.

It's hard, right? It's hard to like break that down as to how many people are going into it with a level head and they see it as a career and it's part of who they are and they maybe are like this they're like this outlaw personality right? Like they're more comfortable on the fringes than within the herd like that exists. And then there's some people that yeah, maybe maybe you are over sexualized by your environment but like every part of our environment. influences who we are, whether it's like you want to become a rocket scientist or an oil rigor or a teacher, right? Like you're constantly being influenced by everything. So to just say that because of marketing, that's why you got into porn, then we would have a lot more people that were in the sex work industry than what we do, right? Like, it's still a very small amount of the population. So I think a lot of it has to be the personality. A lot of it has to be like you are,

again, just more comfortable with that discomfort. And do you? And do you, not worry when we were talking about, you know, the effect that it has on, you know, on the world it has the effect that it has on people's behavior. The reality is porn consumption has exploded ever since the internet before it was something difficult. You actually physically had to go into a shop, buy it, etc. Whereas now you can get it at the, just a tap of a screen. That's progress, mate. The accessibility issue is really interesting, right? I think we obviously have guardrails with everything that people don't completely trust us with.

So there's guardrails for tobacco. There's guardrails for alcohol, right? Like you can only have 90 proof or something like that. Where I'm at in the States, you can't buy hard liquor on Sundays. So at all, unless you go to a bar or something, but you can't go to a grocery store or the liquor store and get it. It's just closed. So there's guardrails. Currently, I feel like the internet, and specifically in the porn side of the internet, there's nothing, right?

Like, everything's free. There's no time limit. None of that. I'm a huge proponent of paywalls. I don't understand why there aren't any. I know it doesn't completely get rid of the problem, but I think that even if you were to do maybe like a pay per view, but that's kind of, you know, I think that's maybe over-regulating. I'm not really sure. But just like some kind of verification that you know it's not a seven-year-old.

It's someone who's at least told enough to have a credit card and maybe some kind of age verification process. But I think someone who's maybe overindulging in something like that, like that's just the symptom, right? So we have to try to figure out why that's happening. Like, why is that avoidant behavior, you know, showing up? Why do they want to spend more time with themselves in the screen and not with real people? I don't think it's just porn, right? You see that again with video games and with people that are spending more time in Minecraft. and now you have meta.

And we have this huge community of people that just don't want to be in the real world. So why is that? It's a really good point. And I was going to ask you, do you think people sometimes have an inappropriately unnecessarily negative view of the industry? Do you think people sort of demonize the industry sometimes

for, as you say, things that happen in many other industries? Oh, 100%. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that, Because, for example, one of our former guest, Anna Fleischman, who is an evolutionary biologist, one of the things she talked about in one of her articles was that in societies where there's a lot of porn consumption, actually violence against women goes down and sexual violence goes down. So, you know, I know it feels like maybe we're sort of coming at you from a moralistic angle,

particularly initially, which we're not. We're just trying to, you know, probe the arguments and find out what you think about stuff. but it's interesting. So do you think it's a weird question to us, but do you think we would be worse off if we didn't have porn? I think if you look at countries that heavily repressed or regulate your sexuality, there's a lot more violence and there's a lot less freedom. So obviously you can't say causation, right?

All you can kind of do is look and try to find patterns. I mean, with the boom of the internet, that's kind of one of the things with the porn industry is they tend to be on the forefront of technology ever since the internet, right? Like, that's what it was back in the 90s. And there was a drop of something like 80 something percent in sexual abuse and rapes in the U.S. Again, you can't say causation, but it's just an interesting pattern. So I think the conversation about, like, is porn good or bad, I think it's whatever you want it to be. I think you are who you are. If you're a misogynist and you are violent against women,

I think that that's going to show up in the content that you're watching. I think if you have a healthy relationship with sexuality, that's going to show up in the content that you're watching. So I wouldn't say it's, I just think porn is. I don't think it's good or bad. But there are certainly certain organizations or company out there that you could argue have a malign influence on society, maybe like the company Pornhub.

they have got a huge amount of critics. Where do you stand on a company like that? So porn hub's an interesting, interesting company. So basically, the company that owns Pornhub owns almost all of the porn that you see online. Like, it's kind of one big monopoly. That's just like their biggest baby as far as revenue goes. I'm not in favor of the tube model. I think that, again, they made all of their money by not only pirating content, and stealing content, especially from like small producers like myself, right? Like I have this limited budget and they would maybe take a video of mine and put it up there for free where I charge for that and it's behind a paywall and it's responsible on some level. So just the way that

they got started wasn't very honest or ethical. I also think that when you're uploading that kind of content with zero age verification, it's like, what are you doing? Like you're absolutely asking for trouble. So yeah, I mean, I have a lot of problems with the ethics of that company. So you said zero age verification because this is something. We have quite, we've hosted interviews with quite a number of feminists. We have quite a lot of feminists who watch the show and engage with the show. And it's been said time and time again that actually the Pornhub have hosted content featuring minors. Is this correct? Allegedly. Allegedly. Please don't sue us to us Pornhub.

So they did find videos of underage girls. Right. Like that was found. I don't know how much was there. And I do know that's not unique to Pornhub. There's significantly more that was on Facebook and all of those. But the differences is that Facebook comes out and reports it because it's a problem they're trying to fix.

Whereas Pornhub was like, nothing exists here. There's nothing to see. Look the other way. And you're like, well, why are you not being honest about this? Right. Like you can say that something slipped through the crap. because again, that happens on every platform. It happens on Zoom. It happens on telegram. Like, there's not a place in the internet where there's not going to be some, like, illegal

content being published. So it was kind of concerning and also interesting that, again, they pretended that the problem wasn't there at all instead of just being transparent and saying, like, we want to help. But yeah, when you don't have any form of verification, like, this is my content. I was consenting. I was of age. And then you could just let anyone upload. I feel like you're asking for that content to be put up. And you mentioned several times the idea of ethical porn and moving on from the porn industry. What was your reason for moving on and doing your own stuff?

So I felt like I started having more and more experiences where like my voice wasn't being respected. My boundaries weren't being respected. I was being told I was difficult all of the time because I would say, the word no and I was I was just kind of over I thought it was ridiculous I thought I think it's ridiculous that performers get paid one time for a scene that's out there forever that absolutely will affect the rest of your life not only your life but if you decide to get married or have children and your parents like it affects absolutely every crack that exists in your life and you get paid one time so like there's no royalties if there's anything that happens you don't get to

take it down I just the power dynamic in that industry is still really off. And then I saw these third-party platforms that were launching, and it gives the power to the creator and to the performer. And it just seemed like a no-brainer. So I think that the industry is definitely going to be going through a revolution right now. And again, when it comes to like crypto and blockchain and NFTs and all of this, I think that it's going to be turned upside down in a very good way.

Well, one of the things I'm told is happening in the porn industry is there are a lot of creators who are basically making their own content. In the same way, Francis and I are now doing what TV used to do. We're having conversations with people. There's a lot of couples who are making stuff, which is just two people who love each other, who are very keen to do this.

They put their own stuff out. Hopefully nobody's getting coerced or abused or mistreated in that situation. And they're putting out, do you think that that's the sort of direction that this all needs to move in? I wouldn't say that it needs to move to just couples, but I definitely think that's becoming a lot more common. And I think it starts to take the air out of the wings of the people that are like, this is strictly exploitive.

Because there's no case for that there, right? Everyone's of age. Everyone's consenting. They're actually married. And then it becomes very clear that the opponents of that industry, it's strictly like religious-based or it's like it pertains to their morality. So I think you're going to start seeing that more because it's just if you can choose to create a, to have a career or to lead the sexual life that you want in like the most isolated and safe space, like why wouldn't you? Like, why would you add unnecessary risk to that by shooting the people that you don't know or for companies that you don't know and, you know, giving away all of your rights to your content? So I think it's going to happen for sure.

Candice, what do you do if, you know, someone takes some of your content and puts it on a site like Pornhub, which is viewed around the world? Do you, as a performer, do you have any recourse to say, look, I disagree with this? Could you take it down? Or is it once it's up there, deal with it? So you usually will have your attorney send in like a DMCA form and then in one to two days it gets taken down. And then as soon as it's taken down, it's back up. the cycle just repeats. So pretty much once it's there, it's there, it just comes down for like these like really short moments. I mean, that's, isn't that, that's awful, isn't it?

It's infuriating. I mean, but it's awful, not just infuriating because let's say you want to move on from that. Let's say you have the period in your life where you thought this is what you wanted to do. And because mainly the women are young, they're in their 20s, I mean, who knows what you're doing in your 20s and then you move on, maybe you want to become a lawyer or a doctor, this thing will hang over you for the rest of your life. Yeah, and there's nothing that you can do. So it's like how do you solve that problem? And unfortunately, people don't really care. So no one's caring. And if you did that with, let's say, like a universal picture, it would be down. There would be massive fines and it wouldn't happen again. That doesn't exist in the adult space

because it's like people don't want to talk about it. The argument is it shouldn't be happening anyways like you shouldn't be doing that um you know you were immoral so you have to deal with those consequences you made that decision and i just find that to be very unfair just like you said a lot of people get in very young you have no idea what you're doing or what you want to do at 18 years old and you make a lot of bad decisions and i think if you make the decision and you end up saying oh shouldn't have done that it's something as intimate as having sex on screen and you're like i own that i want to take it down it shouldn't go back up yeah that no i totally agree with you. On the one hand, on another hand, look at like Twitter. I mean, anything you say as an

18-year-old can and will be used against you for the rest of your life, right? So I think we're all kind of stuck in that situation a little bit where you can't do that. But actually, let's talk about how you deal as someone who's been in that industry, because I know you're a parent now and you've got a family and all of that. Like, how does that transition even work? Well, so I was with my now husband. been throughout pretty much my entire career. Like, we had started dating. So I feel like that's a little bit unique. I don't know what dating while I was in my career,

especially at the height of it would have been like that would have been probably like very choppy waters. But to me, there's, of course, like a transition that comes with parenthood just like anyone else, right? Like, it's the person you were before you had the baby and then after. It's everything's turned upside down. But the idea that you can't be this sexual being and that side of you doesn't exist after you have a kid is nonsense, right? So it's like we have this very sanitized version of what a mother is and that's all she can be.

And I think that, you know, there's a lot of facets to what we are and we're a whole person. So like that sexual side of me hasn't gone away and didn't die once I became a mom. I think that makes people really uncomfortable. I'm sure it makes your husband very comfortable. But my wife is pregnant right now, so I'm very much hopeful she takes up to you. Thank you so much. But you alluded to the religious and moralizing side of this. And I'd love to explore that with you because I'm not a religious person.

And I've definitely watched porn in my life. And at the same time, I do have this like little voice at the back of my head going, well, actually, this is kind of wrong. Why do you think we feel that way? Is it accurate or is it just something we've been indoctrinated with? Or is it, you know, some people would say, well, everything to do with sex is so intimate and sacred and special and should be between the people that happens between, like,

where does that voice come from? I think we're influenced by so many things. We're influenced by our, you know, our religions, our cultures, our societies, the countries that we're born into. I think a lot of that has, when you watch them, you're, ooh, I don't know if this is good or not, or you feel dirty. I think there's still a lot of residual shame when it comes to sexuality because of our religious past. But I mean, if you look, I mean, sex is just, it's hand in hand with the human experience, right? Like, it's almost the reason that we're here is to procreate, right?

Like, it doesn't, it feels good for a reason. And erotica has existed since we were able to draw in caves. Like that, again, it's part of the human experience. I think when it started to, I don't know, be judged or be painted with this brush of fear, again, is when you had people that were really pushing these Christian views on everyone and on the pagans and like, you can't do this. You can't have these, you know, what were they doing? Like those like naked moon parties and they would have all of these orgies are like, oh, you heathens, you can't do that. Here's a Bible, right? And it's, sex can be whatever you want it to be.

There's nothing wrong with monogamy. There's nothing wrong if you think that it's supposed to be this spiritual transcendent experience and it can absolutely be that thing. But it can also be something that's just frivolous and fun and something that you're just taking out for like a joy ride. It can be all of these things. And I think that you have to say like what is that shame? How is that shame serving you?

Like is that something that you want? Is that how you want your mind and body to react when it comes to digesting sexual, anything sexual, right? So I don't know. That's not the relationship I want with sex. I think, of course, that's going to exist with some content, especially if you get into like the really violent stuff or stuff that's like very taboo. And that's probably there for a good cause.

But if you're watching something that's, we'll say, like ethical porn that you know everyone is happy and, you know, willing to shoot, I don't see why you would want that feeling or justify that feeling. What about the fact that a lot of men feel like they're cheating on their partner by, watching other people have sex. Do you agree with that? Not at all. And there's this actually this is a really interesting note by Esther Perel. So she was saying in one of her talks that the idea that watching porn is cheating is unique to heterosexual couples. That that doesn't exist in gay couples. And I'm like, that's so fascinating.

I think when it comes so like my mom's a great example for this. Like she's one of these women if she was dating a guy and he's like, Oh, Catherine Zeta Jones is just such a babe. I just love watching her and Zorro. Just acknowledging the beauty of someone else, it would be over. It would be this huge fight. That's, you know, being unfaithful, and that's where she draws her line. And the idea that you can't appreciate other beauty without being unfaithful

or without somehow tarnishing the relationship that you have, I think, is kind of ridiculous. I think, do you want this really fragile relationship or do you want something that's anti-fragile? So if your relationship is that delicate, we're simply acknowledging someone else's beauty or appreciating it or masturbating to it is going to undo it all, I think that's kind of something to pay attention to. Candice, do you think we're very hypocritical with our attitudes to sex and particularly for porn? He doesn't just mean the two of us, by the any society.

I mean, if you look at the numbers, right? Like, if you look at how many unique visits there are to porn have, I would say, say absolutely. And why is that? Why do we have this? You know, because as you say, you know, we all, you know, everybody has sex, practically everybody, if you believe the numbers, watch is porn. Why do we have such weird attitudes to this?

I think right now because, again, it's still considered so taboo. It's still considered something that is primarily for the purpose of child rearing. The idea that it's just for pleasure is still not widely talked about. even though we kind of intrinsically know that. We know that pleasure is important. They've done all, so they try to do these sexual studies, and they find that there's this book called A Billion Wicked Thoughts, and they kind of took a lot of these tube sites

as ways to get information as to what people are into and kinks and fetishes and all of these things, because even when you're giving people what that you would call anonymous forms, they still didn't feel like they could be honest. So there's just something really deeply buried in us that is, again, linked to shame and judgment, and we just feel like we can't be ourselves. And then we wonder why we have unfilling sex lives with our partners because we can't have these conversations. So I think it starts with the individual.

And it's like, again, how do you want to show up? How do you want your relationship with sex to be? And you get to decide that. And you can undo everything that you've been taught. And you can have this healthy relationship with it. And it doesn't have to be something that's judged or shameful or bad. You would think that in 2021, that we still wouldn't have such a complicated attitude with the sexual act. Do you think it's entirely to do with religion, or do you think it goes deeper than that?

That's a tough call. I think that we still have such a huge, and we're still hugely influenced by religion. So I think that you can't ignore that, especially still in the States. I would say the biggest argument about it. But I think we kind of like jumped a whole bunch of steps ahead. So we went from let's just try to have an honest conversation about we'll talk about women's sexuality and like their right to pleasure to everyone needs to have an only fan. And if you don't accept that, then you know, then you're just a bigot and a misogynist and whatever. And I'm like, well, that's way on the other end of the spectrum.

So I think it's, I don't know, it's finding, again, what's, like, important for you, right? And, like, and trying to distinguish between what you've been taught and wired to think and feel versus, like, your authentic self. Well, you mentioned the word wired there, Candice, and I was going to ask you about this, because do you not think, I mean, if we look at, you know, cross-culturally, almost every society has some sort of, I'm going to quote Jordan Peterson and get into a lot of trouble here, so I won't phrase it the way. he did, which when he said enforced monogamy and everybody went mental. But the idea that society encourages monogamous relationships between men and women, because that is the way that society kind of supports itself best and reproduces itself best. Do you think maybe part of this is just evolutionary and evolutionary psychologically and evolutionary biological in that we kind of need people to get together with one person,

and bring up children, and that's the most stable and safe environment for that. And therefore, we try to sort of moralize ourselves into a bit of a straight jacket that we think is necessary. So I don't, I'm obviously not an evolutionary psychologist or evolutionary biologist. I've talked to some of them. And I think it's interesting. So I would say, what are the numbers? I was just reading this today.

it's almost like 80% of all of the women that exist have had children and only 40% of men that have existed have had children. So almost all men like their lines have had children with multiple women. And the vast majority of men have not had children. So if you just look at that number, it would suggest that monogamy hasn't really existed in the way that we think of it now, where it's one man, one woman for the rest of their lives. Like men have tended to kind of stray. So I would say part of that is like obviously the consequence of sex for a woman is huge, especially before, you know, birth control. So that definitely plays a factor into it.

And I would say a lot of it too is social. It's we have not been allowed to be sexual, you know, outside of rearing children. until like the most recent years. So I think it's kind of a combination of both. And what do you make of the concept of slut shaming, this idea that women who have sex with lots of men, they are unfairly treated because of it, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

And it should be sort of like everybody should just do what you want. I think that it comes down to just being a kind person, right? So I think it's the wrong. message to say there's absolutely nothing wrong with sleeping with everyone and anyone, right? Like, there's, again, some kind of boundary that needs to happen. I think someone that's having, like, copious amounts of sex with all of these strangers and they're not being safe, like, there's something else happening there. I think that's very different than somebody who may be, like, casually dates or sleeps with more people than the average bear or whatever. That's very different.

But I guess, like, what is the purpose of the slut shaming? You usually. Usually, like, if you're, you know, throwing rocks at somebody else, it has to do with an insecurity that you have. And I think for a lot of women in particular is that they, for some reason, they think that if this one person is a little bit more sexually loose or liberated than they are, then, like, what they have is at stake. So, like, you're now a direct threat to, like, everything that I own and I'm building in my family. And that's just, I would say, like, that's kind of an unjustified tie that they're making. Hey, Constantine, do you love Trigonometry? Of course, incredible interviews, hilarious live streams, hard-hitting satire, plus my handsome jawline. Whatever takes away from your hairline.

But if you do love Trigonometry and you want to support us, there's only one place to do that, and that's on Locals. Yes, Locals is a brilliant platform that has been incredibly supportive to our show and other problematic creators. The great thing about locals is that it's a community, for people who love trigonometry. That's right, it's a place for you to hang out with like-minded people, share thoughts, memes and discuss the show. You can enjoy it for free,

but it also gives you the option of supporting us for as little as $7 a month. And if you want to give more, you can. We have incredible rewards for our higher-tier supporters as well. We've got everything for mugs, monthly group calls, and one-on-two chats with me and KK. Get in. Join our community by hitting the link in the description

and the pin comment below. See you there, guys. It's quite a tricky question. Do you ever think that you'll ever regret your choices that you made? Maybe if you want to go and do something else or if you decide one day you want to become a lawyer, do you ever think that that means that you would ever look back on your career and think to yourself that was a mistake?

Or do you simply think it's part of life's rich tapestry, as it were? Yeah, I would go with the latter. I think that every decision that I made I mean, it was authentic and it was right at the time. And to go back and be like, well, you know, I regret this wouldn't really make sense for me. Again, it is part of who I am. I think it's unfortunate that I've absolutely closed a lot of opportunities by making that decision. I mean, even as of late, my husband and I were trying to like start this business and it was buying into this franchise.

And they were like, you can't do it because of, you know, my career. And it was like, that's really shitty. And I can't get mad at them because that's absolutely they're right and they have shareholders and all of that. Like I totally understand it. But at the same time, I can be disappointed. So I would say I'm not immune to being disappointed because I don't get certain things that I've strived for even, you know, as of recently. But it's just owning my decisions. And but again, it goes back to the hypocrisy.

Like where a company will go, well, you know, we don't want to be associated with her. with her. But I guarantee every one of those men on the board, men and women, but has watched pornography. Every one of those customers has watched pornography. And yet you want to buy into

a franchise in the business and you were someone who worked into creating that content, suddenly that's beyond the pale. To me, that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense and you can't change people. You can only try to influence them. And I think you're going to

find like-minded people if you look hard enough, right? And that just wasn't my group. That wasn't going to be someone that was going to be supportive of me or me as a franchisee. So I've met other people that own, you know, 100 plus million dollar companies and they're huge porn advocates. So like, I'm a porn fanatic and they go on to how they think it's great for society and mental health and all of these things. And they get so mad when they hear stories like that. So it's just finding people like that that want to support you and help grow with you and then just ignoring that and then hoping that like that social climate just like slowly keeps changing to where it's not like this permanent red A that I can't take off. And do you consider yourself a feminist,

Candish? I don't even know what that means anymore to be honest. There's so many different iterations of that. I would say probably not because most of the ones that I've met I don't really align with. and maybe I'm meeting the wrong kind of feminist. Like, I don't hate men. I don't think that men are the same as women. I think that we're very different. I think that we need to appreciate those differences. When it comes to sex, like, I know there's some feminists that are very anti-sex work

and some that are very pro. So I have no idea what that word even means. That's a very good answer, actually. It sounds like an evasion, but actually it's exactly right because it's become this broad concept. and some people use it pejoratively and some people use it to praise people and they all mean different things.

I suppose by the standard definition, if you think men and women are and should be treated equally, then everybody sort of is, right? But it seems to have got complicated. So do you find that feminists like you or feminists hate you or you get different reactions from different types?

What is your experience of dealing with people? I would say most of them probably don't. like me. I've heard that I've internalized the patriarch and that I'm, um, what is the other one? That like somehow I don't know that I'm being exploited. I don't like it's just it takes away all of the intelligence from women. Like we we can't make these decisions on our own. We need someone to hold our hand and we need someone to regulate this so that we don't make this horrible mistake. So to me that would be anti-women, right? Is saying that we are lesser than, we're dumber than.

We're kind of like children in some sense. So I never really got along with those women. And what have you learned from your journey in that particular industry? Because it must have been an experience where, how to put this, you must have realized things about yourself, things about men in particular, things about sexuality, person might never come across or might never discover. Oh, man.

That's a tough one. I would say that I think we were sold this story that, you know, if you own your sexuality and if you are pretty enough or if you're rich enough, if you're famous enough, all of these things that that leads to, I would say, like being fulfilled and happy. I think when I first got in and I first started getting recognized, it's almost like you start getting drunk on all of those things and you start losing touch with reality. And I think I learned that it's crucial and imperative that you have people around you to keep you grounded and to keep you from floating away into that because it's so easy to lose yourself when you're, I guess, trying to please other

people. So I'd say one of the things I learned the most was the value of like trying to remain, I would say, like, authentic and autonomous and like finding your purpose and self-worth internally versus trying to get those external validations. So I learned that probably magnified, right because you start getting all of these followers and you start getting all of these comments and it's like very easy to displace your values so i would say like the importance of of your values of your social circle um and then i would say of just like saying no like that was like the most powerful thing i learned too in the industry is like how to say no and no is a complete sentence and you don't have to explain anything and you have the right to um to decide what to do with your body

And Candice, it strikes me, before we ask our last question, because our time is running out, it strikes me that you've had an experience of life that the overwhelming majority of people haven't had. So as you look out into the broader culture and the political moment and everything that's happening in the world, I imagine you have a very, not a very, a unique view on it. Is there anything that stands out for you now in terms of what's happening in society, the stuff that we're talking about politically that you feel strongly about or have some input on?

I have a lot of opinions. I would say, I think it comes down to freedom, right? And it's going to sound super vague and again... No, I just sound super American. Super American. But I think that that's... You have to say, like,

how much regulation do you want on anything? Like, what are you... what are you owed as a human being? Like, what are things that are yours that no one should be able to take away? And I think it's also important to recognize, like, that goes for your opponents, too, right? So it's not freedom just to do the things that you want and not the freedom for people to do the things that you don't want. It kind of has to go across the board and how do we coexist together, right? Like, that's also kind of something I've had to deal with, too, especially living in the South.

It's like how do you, how do you still be kind to someone? You don't have to agree with my decisions or my career or my views on sexuality to still treat me like a human being. So how do we take that, you know, 10,000 feet away and say that maybe on a political scale? Like I might not agree with who you voted for. I might not agree on the way that you look at lockdown measurements. But like we're still all humans. So how do we get back to a place where we recognize that humanity, especially in the people opposite the end of the the table of us.

That's a really, really, really good. It's a really powerful, yeah. It's true because at the moment, we don't do that anymore. We don't do that. We seem to have lost that ability. We seem to have lost that ability. And it's really sad. Before our final question, is there anything that you would change about the industry?

Is there anything that you would want to just, you know, be improved? Oh, for sure. I mean, starting with paywalls for any expectations. explicit content, starting with the creators owning their content and having an equal say as to whether it's published or whether it gets taken down. And then what we talked about earlier, which is if you decide that, you know, that's no longer what represents you that that content can be removed and it can't be put back up so that people can continue to grow, evolve and have a life after porn. Well, we're about to do a couple of questions for our locals, so it's behind a paywall, so you'll approve of that. But before we do that, we've got one final question for you, which is, as always, what's the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? Yeah. And again, I think it goes back to humanity and how do we recognize the humanity and people that think different, that look different, that maybe live different lifestyles and just going back to treating people like people and being kind.

it's interesting that that idea has become quite like quite difficult for people now because i always thought that you know i'm from russia originally and that was not something you have a lot of there it's certainly not in my experience but coming to the west it was sort of my my belief maybe naively and mistakenly like this is the place where that's what you do right like you can go and be a porn style if that's what you want to do and as long as you're not being coerced or forced into it, you know, I may agree or disagree or whatever, but there's, you know, you're a human being, I'm a human being, you have the right to do that, I have the right to do a show that people don't like, whatever, right? And we just seem to have kind of eroded that quite recently. Do you have

any thoughts on why that is before we, before we let you go? I don't know if it's like a single factor. I would definitely say it comes back to maybe that social autism that people are coining, which is spending too much time, like, on screens and less face-to-face time. And we're not being trained in, like, empathy, and we're not recognizing that anymore. I think it's very easy to be cruel when there's those different layers that, like, separate us, right? It's so much easier to write a nasty comment or tweet than it is to say something to someone's face. So I think it comes back to spending more time grounded in the real world and less time on your phone. That's a very good point. Candice, where can people find your work online before we ask you our other questions?

You can go to chatting with candace.com and that has all my Candace socials or you can follow me on Twitter, which is where I spend way too much time, which is Fall and Lovia. Fantastic. So thank you very much for coming on the show. We'd really appreciate your time. And thank you for watching and listening, guys. We'll see you very soon with another brilliant interview like this one or all of them go out at 7pm UK time. And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast. Take care and see you soon, guys. We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview. Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode. And if you believe that the work we do

here at trigonometry is important, support us by joining our locals community using the link below.