TRIGGERnometry - The Truth About TRIGGERnometry Part 3

Episode Date: January 2, 2023

Konstantin and Francis sit down to reflect on 2022 and discuss their hopes and plans for TRIGGERnometry in 2023. Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ | Channel ID: UCo_8zzSxKeL3arKWVuP8wdQ Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Maximus is the online clinic that reverses your decline with prescription performance medicines, gLP ones, testosterone, and peptides that reduce belly fat, restore energy, and boost recovery. Over 50,000 high performers have already broken through their plateaus. If you're ready to turn your hard work into measurable results, go to maximus tribe.com. That's maximus tribe.com. I think the biggest, like, standout moment for me was definitely the America trip. Yeah. Because it wasn't really a moment. It was like two and a half weeks in which we interviewed a crap ton of amazing guests.

I tell you what was a real highlight for me when I interviewed you the day that Putin invaded Ukraine. We did that in February. I forgot about that. Yeah. And by the way, we raised over 55,000 pounds for charities that work in Ukraine. people, enough smart people, or smarter than us people at least, are asking questions like, well, what is the positive vision for people like us? Why should anybody join our tribe, whatever that tribe is, right? We've spent quite a lot of time opposing things, saying, well, that's wrong and that's stupid, and that's...

But what do we have to offer the world? What does our way of thinking? What do the questions we ask have to... to add to the conversation. Yeah, because it's not enough to be against something. Yeah. You can't base an identity on being anti-something. I think for the

foreseeable future, I feel that it's our job to stay and it's our job to fight. Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissin. And this is a show for you if you want interesting... Oh, sorry.

We don't know what the show is about. And this is the show for you, if you honest conversations with fascinating people. We have neither for you today because it's just me and Francis talking about the year that's just been and the year that's coming up. So Francis, welcome to the show.

Welcome to the show to you too. It's been a long and interesting year. Yes. Huge for us in some ways. Also quite difficult in other ways. Absolutely. It has been a year of contrast. It's been a year of ups and downs,

of changes, of incredible experiences. It's had it all, really. Well, I think the biggest, like, standout moment for me was definitely the America trip. Yeah. Because it wasn't really a moment. It was like two and a half weeks in which we interviewed a crap ton of amazing guests. I was on Tim Pool. Then we were on Joe Rogan.

We interviewed Bill Burr. We had that crazy Sam Harris episode that blew up all over the internet. What was your most memorable moment of the year? To be honest, to be it was the America trip. That was, it was, it had this show. strange, almost ethereal-like quality to it, where, apart from a small blip at the beginning, do you remember with all the equipment where we didn't have any equipment when we started? Yeah. And then we had to go... Yeah, I do remember.

Apart from that, the rest of it went so well. I'm like, I was... I found myself thinking, is this a dream? Yeah. Like, every day had that surreal dreamlike quality, where we went to the Daily Wire, and then we were interviewing Sam Harris. And, Not at the daily wire. Not at the daily... That would be a meeting of the minds, wouldn't it? Yeah, I can imagine they wouldn't get on that well. But it was an incredible experience, and it was so fun.

And it just showed us what was possible as well. Yeah, it did. And speaking of what was possible, we're obviously sitting in our new studio. Not entirely complete. I mean, the neon lights that people will be used to seeing were broken by one of the builders who was installing them. Doesn't sound like builders, doesn't sound like builders at all. So we've got a few little bits to...

finish off in this room in the studio itself is looking good but we've got more to do and the office and green room part of the studio is nowhere near finished so that will be a job for next year but we started the year in our last studio and by the end of the year we had to we were forced to leave that which is the eternal journey of trigonometry people haven't seen the truth about trigonometry particularly part one we talk about you know being kicked out of studio after studio but here In this place, we have a more or less long-term home. We've built this entire place from scratch. It was just one big empty room, and we've made it the way we want,

and we've still got things to add. So I'm excited about next year as well. But what were some of the other highlights of last year for you? Do you remember? Yeah. I mean, some of the guests we've had on the show in the last year. I mean, think about some of our most popular episodes, Luis Perry. Yeah.

Absolutely brilliant. Peter Zahan. Peter Zahan, fantastic. William Costello was a... Super. Yeah, talking about incels. Yeah, it was, yeah. I know we released a whole batch just around, do you remember when we got ill with COVID,

around about that January moment which were very, very good. Africa Brooke. Yes. I think that was probably the first episode of 2020. Yeah, I think it may well have been, yeah. Yeah, and what a way to start. She was absolutely sensational, just a brilliant episode.

There was so many special moments in that last studio. I tell you what was a real highlight for me when I interviewed you the day that Putin invaded Ukraine. We did that in February. I forgot about that, yeah. February 24th, and that's been a big part. And by the way, we raised over 55,000 pounds for charities that work in Ukraine in one evening. In one Raw Show, we raised 55,000 pounds.

Yeah. And that to me, well, first of all, I know that you will make a big difference to people on the ground there, but also I think it speaks to how amazing our fans are and what we've built here too, because that showed the number of people who watch and listen and pay attention to what we do and who wanted to support us doing that. It was incredible. It was a really special moment. I mean, when we said that it was going to be a fundraising roar, I mean, I thought we were going to make a decent amount of money. I didn't expect, because I had to work up,

I was working up material for my tour, so I had to go and do a gig. And I was like, oh, but if I leave at 840, that's plenty of time, you know, rule will be finished, and it just kept going, the money kept going. Well, I felt really bad, and because prior to doing it, I messaged the couple of our higher-end supporters

who've given us bits of money here and there. And I said to him, look, We're going to do this fundraiser. I'm guessing we'll probably raise about, I don't know, a couple of grand. You know, you're a millionaire. Would you like to match it? And this is how you know why millionaires and millionaires. They all went, nah, but I'll give you a grand.

Because if they had matched, they'd be in for about 50 grand each. So, yeah, it was incredible and very surprising. And I think sometimes you and I don't really realize how amazing the thing we've built is and how much people enjoy it. and community on locals, which has been brilliant as well. And it's been a really interesting year from a personal perspective for both of us as well. For me, my book came out this year, and I had some fascinating insights into the way that the whole publishing industry works and books and everything, which we can talk about if you want.

And also, Nikolai, my son was born. Incredible. He's seven months old now, which is just insane. And that's been a complete transformation. And it's changed a lot of the way that I see politics and life as well. You know, I can, now I truly understand, while I certainly wouldn't say that I'm becoming conservative, I understand why people become small-sea conservative with time.

And I don't think it's time. I think it's life decisions and life events that really change that for you. Like when I see the world through apparent eyes, it completely changes how I perceive it. lots of things. Like, for instance? Well, I mean, the obvious one is drugs. You know me. I've been as libertarian as anybody on the issue of drugs. But when I think about, do I want him to be able to buy heroin at the pharmacy at the age of 16, I think probably not, you know.

Kill joy. Kill joy, exactly. And I think it's also made me realize, particularly on the trans issue, which we've talked to death, frankly, but it won't go away until we've got to keep raising awareness. of it is when you see how small and vulnerable and undeveloped also their brains are when they're small, you kind of go, they're not capable of making such decisions. And of course, no one makes a decision to transition at seven months. But you can see the progression from between where he is now and an adult. And you just go, these are not, children are not capable of making decisions of this nature and they're likely to experience distress in teenage years and whatever

and they're going to be looking for explanations of why they feel in a certain way you know and we've interviewed in the last few days we've interviewed both ollie london and helen joyce which were both very powerful interviews in their own way and that's one of the things that i realize you know a lot of young people are looking for answers to the same existential questions that human beings have always been dealt with but now they've got this fucking thing in their hand that just offers them this complete, massive range of choices. And where in the past you would have felt distress or discomfort or questions about your future, now you've just got this portal to hell in your hand.

And so it's made me more conservative, more, more, I don't know if it's the right, it's conservative is the right word, but it's like my son isn't getting a smartphone for a very long time. I don't think we understand actually what smartphones are. I don't think we understand what they're doing to us. I think it was Jordan Peterson who said this. We've all become part of an experiment and no one consented to. And they are manipulating our minds.

They are changing the way we think. They're changing our attention patterns in ways that we can't possibly understand. So correct decision. And think about us. I mean, you and I are both basically 40 now. So we grew up. We look younger. Some of us.

on a good day, some of us look 38. But you and I grew up in an era when I was growing up, there was no internet. No. There were no computers for a long time in my childhood as well. And so you were not constantly plugged in to this hive mind. But for young people nowadays who are growing up now, they've never experienced that world.

They've always been plugged into it. And the thing is, you recognize particularly if you switch off from the internet for a couple of days and you just go and do something out in the real world, the internet misrepresents reality, particularly social media. And yet if that is all you know, if you've grown up with that from the beginning, it distorts your view of reality, which I think is where a lot of the sort of culture war happens is because quite a lot of people have just become so disconnected from the real world, then these phrases like, well, there's no difference between men and women,

they become possible in a world in which you're not confronted with reality. IP vanish protects every device you own, your phone, your laptop, your smart TV. If it connects to the internet, it should be protected. IP vanish encrypts your connection and masks your IP address, helping keep your browsing private at home and on public Wi-Fi. And with no device limits, one account covers everything. Stream with added privacy. Brow securely.

Connect with confidence. Right now, save 83% off the two-year plan. Get started today at IPVanish.com slash audio and take control of your privacy with IPVanish. Yeah, and that's such a great point. And it's also we get our ideas not just of how other people are, what they're like as people, and how well they're doing or not,

how well they're not doing all of these things from social media. and it doesn't exist. It's a misrepresentation. You can think someone is doing incredibly well, and, I mean, on one level they might be, or it might just be them showing edited highlights, but in that moment, they might be experiencing a tragedy. And yet we look at them, and we feel jealous that we are not them. And the reality is, but we don't know. We don't know. And so we now think that this alternate version of reality is reality. and we've all bought it as well. All of us.

I don't care who you are. We all think that way now. Yeah, and you know, you touch on jealousy, and that's one of the things that has really shifted for me in the last few years doing the show and Nikolai being born as well. It's like, I am so grateful for everything that we get to do, just the fact that we get to turn up and this is our job.

It's like what Bill Burr said to us. You know, we were taught, and he was like, this isn't a real job. What are we doing here? It's Tuesday afternoon. we're sitting here with jackets on, you know. And it's something I've been conscious of for a long time. And I've just, I've really forced myself, not that he was ever a big thing for me anyway,

but, you know, everyone feels jealousy every now and again. The fact that, you know, people commented on the fact that when we were on America trip and we put those vlogs out, which are a brilliant intern earlier edited so well. And we were saying grace before meals, even though none of us is religious. But that's why we do, because our practice of gratitude is so important. particularly when we're building something and we're doing well and we're having a lot of success and we grow every year and that's really something that I think we don't appreciate is the constant growth how fulfilling that is for us because you and I are both very competitive and driven people

and I think I always get itchy fee certainly throughout my life in other jobs that I've done and other careers that I've had once I start to feel like I've got it down and I know how this works and there's nothing new and there's no problems to solve. I start to get bored. Whereas with trigonometry, that really isn't the case. So, and of course, you know, seeing a child be born and watching their first smile and like he's literally in the last two weeks gone from like constantly lying on his back on his front to like crawling around everywhere. Like I was having a shower this morning and suddenly the door opened and he crawled in, you know. Yeah. Just watching that whole process, it makes you so grateful for everything. And so I've really been, I mean, it sounds wanky,

but I've really been blessed this year to notice and appreciate all the things that are going right. Yeah. And I think it's important to do that because I think a lot of the time, we're so conditioned, especially in the West, to when things go right, you just go, oh, that's the way it should be. That's what life is. Life should be like this. And you're like, well, no. That's not how life works. And by the way, we're about to find that out with the economic situation and the country and the political situation because it seems to me, I mean, actually Helen Joyce, who we recorded an interview when I was bringing her, when we were driving in the car, this is what she was saying. She said, when I worked at the economist 12, 15 years ago,

it was all about, well, you know, we've got an extra 10 billion. How should the government and spend it. And that's over, man. Yeah. I think the truth is, and people, I think people really haven't caught on to this. The next few years are going to be extraordinarily difficult, I think, economically, culturally, politically and socially.

This notion that we've enjoyed in the post-war period in the West, the world's always going to be better, your children are always going to be better off than you were. And technologically, that'll probably still be the case. They will probably still live longer and they'll still have better gadgets and whatever. But the idea that they're going to be richer or that it's going to be easier for them to get a job, young people. You know, it's really, really difficult for a lot of people. And I think that's only going to get worse, unfortunately.

I completely agree with you. I think that the reality is this is the beginning of the tough times. We have seen chronic mismanagement by successive governments for, a long time. And now the chickens are coming home to Roos, in particular with lockdown. Just to interrupt, sorry, I want to hear the rest of your point. But I would go, I think you're right about chronic mismanagement by several, you're bang on the money. I think it's actually a bigger issue. Now, I think it's a broader problem. It's a global problem, actually. The way that the economy's been managed, the getting into endless levels of debt,

never even trying to pay it off, is a Westwide phenomenon. And perhaps success beyond that, sorry. No, no, no, no. But again, I absolutely agree. And we are at the very beginning. I was thinking about it the other day. It kind of reminded me, like, the COVID is kind of like when we shut everything down and we gave money. What we basically were like was like a landlord and everybody came in for a pint and we didn't have enough beer. So what do we do? We just watered down the alcohol. Everyone got their beer, but no one was getting pissed. And all of a sudden, what this pint that you were expecting, to make, give you that warm, fuzzy feeling and take you to a better place.

All of a sudden, it ain't doing that. And that's what we're all feeling with our pockets, with the money that we've got. It isn't going to go to where it used to be. I can see why you don't drink anymore. The graphic way in which you described that, just doesn't do you the buzz. It doesn't. And I think that's... You need the hard stuff.

Bitcoin. Bitcoin, exactly. And I think that people, more and more people are waking a, up to that fact. And you're looking at, and we've raised Bitcoin. Bitcoin was the kind of get-rich quick scheme for our generation. But again, with the SB with Sam Bankman-Fried or whatever his name is, that wasn't Bitcoin specifically, but I know what you mean, right? Crypto. I'm talking about crypto in general, because for our generation, really difficult to get on the property ladder, very hard to. So what are you going to do with your money? Invest it in crypto.

That was the dream. And again, that's gone by the wayside. So I think a lot of people are looking at the economic landscape and thinking to themselves, I don't know how I'm going to do what I'm going to do with this. I don't know how I'm going to make this work. I don't know what my options are. Everybody is taking a real world pay cut and things are getting more expensive. Well, it's almost like the period of time that we're living through is just so completely different to everything that came before. And I think, And I think you're right, the pandemic was definitely the catalyst. Then you have the war in Ukraine.

And the war in Ukraine, people have different views on how it started and what's going on and what we should do about it and whatever. But it's the first time in a very long time that you've had full-scale military conflict in Europe between two major nations in Europe, in which everyone has felt that they've been somehow affected by it. It has thrown the very idea of globalization combined with, obviously, COVID and China into the bin. And as Peter Zahan talked about, the globalization is basically over.

And that's not necessarily – there are – globalization did a lot of damage to certain individual people. But it was also the foundation of Western prosperity and prosperity around the world in many ways. So that being undone quite rapidly in a short period of time is going to have massive – impact on the world. And yet, I also think that it's going to be an exciting time at the same time. Because I think particularly in the cultural space, and you and I have talked about it with a few guests, but the one thing I am really conscious of is those of us like you and I who made it our business to oppose woke idiocy.

And we did it for a number of reasons, I think. you know, would it be fair to say that with you, it was because A, you saw it destroying comedy and B, your background in terms of your family in Venezuela and seeing what the far left can do when it gets off the rails? Yeah. Or not necessarily off the rails, when it gets given an opportunity to run rampant. Yeah.

But yeah, that's fair. Yeah. And not dissimilar. In my case, I think in my case, it was... I mean, comedy was obviously a big part of it, but I'm also just someone because of my background and because of what my ancestors went through in the Soviet Union, you know, the concept of truth has so much value to me that I wasn't prepared to go along with, you know,

two plus two equals five, and that's increasingly what we felt we had to do. So we started trigonometry by opposing all this woke idiocy. And in the process, I also think we feel that there are some people who go too far another direction. And they were always there, but it's just, I guess, we were feeling our way out and trying to understand where do we map into this whole thing.

And I think now it is a responsibility of people like us, and I hear different people having these conversations. Like Peter Thiel gave a talk to the NACCON conference, and he talked about a positive vision for the future, and he doesn't exactly have one. And I don't exactly have one, and you don't exactly have one, but I think enough smart people, or smarter than us people at least,

are asking questions like, well, what is the positive vision for people like us why should anybody join our tribe whatever that tribe is not the right wing lunatics tribe and the far left lunatics tribe

but the non-lunatic tribe why should anyone be on board with us because we've spent quite a lot of time opposing things saying well that's wrong and that's stupid and that's but what do we have to offer the world what does our way of thinking

what does what do the questions we ask have to add to the conversation. And that's something I've been thinking about a lot. And having my son has made me think about that even more. Yeah, because it's not enough to be against something. Yeah. You can't base an identity on being anti-something. You've got to be, because if you look at music, you know, every musical movement is a reaction to the one before. But it's not just, oh, we are going, we dislike this, this and this. It has its own sound. It has its own tribe. It has its own way of being. It has its, you know, there's many different things that form a new musical movement. So for us, it's important to actually think to ourselves, well, what do we want to create?

Because it's not enough to be anti. It's not enough to criticize. Because let's be fair. The easiest thing in the world is to stand on the sidelines and criticize people. We can do that all day long. Yeah. But if you want to make something better, if you want to actually be a force for good, if you want to actually be a force for good, if you want to society to improve, then you need to be a creator. Absolutely. And I think this is one of the, in some ways, the tragedies that I think about culturally that have occurred as a result of this woke idiocy is too many people who are very creative have now ended up in a position where, like us, rather than doing the creative thing that they were always doing, instead they're just talking about not being able to be creative

or they've gone from, you know, like Winston Marshall, he's a very good friend of ours, or the two of us, or Andrew Doyle, or you can go on and on and on. There's a whole list of creative people who used to make comedy or music or whatever, whose job now mainly is to do something else. And I think that's something we need to address, actually. And so, you know, there's a few conversations happening behind the scenes, but that is definitely one of the, items on my agenda for the next few years is how do we you know I'm tired of talking look I haven't

done stand-up since the pandemic began and I'm really happy not doing stand-up but you know you and I do raw shows three nights a week and that is an outlet for both of our comedic and creative energies but I think we need more I think I think that we've got to rather than going you know diversity and wokeness and all this stuff has made all the TV comedies that we used to to love shit, we've got to make our own stuff. Yeah. You know, and I think that's the future. Likewise with music, likewise with theater,

likewise with all sorts of things. And people should know that there is work being done behind the scenes on those fronts. Yeah, it's got to happen and we've got to do it. Because otherwise, all you're doing is complaining. It's glorified complaining. And I always see... It's not glorified. No.

It's just complaining. Yeah, it's complaining. And I always see complaining like scratching a bit of eczema. where in the moment it feels good. But doesn't improve anything. It doesn't improve anything. And actually, long term, it just makes you feel worse. Because all you do is focus on the negatives.

And eventually you just start spiraling because all you see are negatives. Whereas if you create, that's much more positive. Because number one, it's more enjoyable. And number two, good things happen when you create. Good things happen. You meet new people. you talk to new people, new things, new opportunities open. And also as well, people see you creating,

and that then spurs them on to do their own thing. And that's how communities are built. Well, absolutely. With trigonometer, I think it's, I don't think we have blown our own trumpet to say that a lot of people in the UK didn't do what we do back when we started and they now do it. And I think part of the reason is they looked at us

and if those two idiots can do it. Yeah. So can we? And that's great. That, you know, there's something that, Joe Rogan always talks about it, which is he wants as many people as possible to have a podcast and do a thing and whatever, because you're trying to build, you need more people doing something than just a couple.

So, you know, we always try and encourage people as well, and I think that's really important. So the question I wanted to ask you is, what have been some of the biggest, like, mindset changes or ideas that you've come up with during the last year that have changed how you look at the world? biggest mindset changes that we had a business meeting with someone and we were talking about you know, trigonometry. And I was saying, and I made the point of, you know, the mainstream media and I was just like going, you know, the problem with the mainstream media is, you know, they take people and then they like comedians and they, you know, sanitize them and whatever else. And he just looked and he went, yeah, that's a victim mindset.

It is. And I was like, you're right. And then I think it was you who made the point, who said something about the mainstream media. And he went, you are the mainstream media. And we were like, what? And he went, of course you are. You've got hundreds over half a million subscribers

across all platforms. You are the mainstream media. Millions of people watch and listen to you every month. You are the mainstream now. And that was a very big moment where I was just, because I still, in my head, fringe is the wrong word. We're not fringe, but that's what, if you see what I'm saying. I don't know exactly what you're saying.

Well, the thing is, the mainstream doesn't exist anymore in the way that it did, because in the 90s and the 80s, if you were on TV, everybody knew who you were. Because everybody watched the same five channels in this country. Now, there are very, very few big stars. Like, as we're sitting recording this, Jeremy Clarkson wrote, piece about Megan Markle in which he fantasized about her being subjected to the same thing as

Queen Circe in Game of Thrones. And it was quite obviously a reference to that, but most people didn't get it because most people haven't seen Game of Thrones, even though Game of Thrones is one of the biggest shows in the history of the last 10 years. So that mainstream celebrity and fame, it just isn't available

anymore for the vast, vast, vast majority of people, even with sport, to be honest, you know. And so I think, sadly, for everyone watching, this is what the mainstream is going to look like going forward. Yeah. And but that to me was, that was a really eye-opening moment where someone was going, no, what you've created now, you are part of the mainstream. And you need to think, act and behave like that. Yeah. And this idea that, you know, you're on the side, you know, you're on the side, you're, you know, your fringe and whatever else, you're not.

you are part of the mainstream, and you should accept that and you should embrace that, and you should really step into that role. And I think that's very important for both of us as we move forward. What about yourself? I think that's a big part of it. I think one of the things that's happened this year is my own audience has grown a lot, particularly on social media, doing the book and around the war in Ukraine and a lot of people wanted to hear what I had to say.

So I think I'll end the year on like 200,000 Twitter followers, which is insane. And it's made me sort of behave more responsibly, if I'm honest, because I'm like, okay, quite a lot of people watching this now. I can't just, you know, troll people in the same way that I used to. Or whatever. I don't think I would troll people, but I would be more abrasive in the way that I communicated. And also, I think fatherhood has also had that effect on me as well, where I'm like, okay, this is, you know, I have to, I don't yet have to,

be an example because you won't have social media for a long time, but at some point I'm going to have to be an example. And I take that responsibility very seriously. So that's been one of them. And the other thing is, one of the things that's happened over the course of the last year in particular is trigonometry has got bigger and bigger. And it's meant, you know, as we always talk about, every time the show gets bigger and we generate more revenue. The only thing we ever think about is, okay, we need to hire another person so that we can not be constantly overworked and overwhelmed and dropping the ball here and dropping the ball there. And our team has grown to the point where, you know, in addition to me, you and Anton, our executive producer,

we now have two more full-time staff and five or six part-time staff as well. And that's a big team to manage. And, you know, whether we like it or not, I mean, I always say this, you know, where two idiot comedians that started a podcast but we now have like a small business to run and it's completely changed

how I think about the economy the tax system the whole thing because and the America trip really helped to see things

in a different way as well because I don't think in this country we quite appreciate how difficult we make it to run a small business yeah it is very

and this isn't again coming back to the victim mentality we are doing well in terms of, you know, growing our audience and putting out great content. And I'm really proud of the stuff that we've created all over last year. But it is not easy to run a business in this country. And when you go to America and you see what what it's like over there, it does make

you think. And every time, you know, every time I turn on the TV now and we've got these strikes going on at the moment and all of that, and I sort of think, the way we talk about people who who've started a business or people who are wealthy or people who are successful, it's almost like baked in that they're somehow evil in this country. I don't know if you'd think that's true or not, but we always talk about, you know,

they've got to pay their fair share. And, you know, the top 1% of people in this country pay 33% of all income tax and the top 10% pay over nearly 70%. The top 10% pay nearly 70% of all income tax. How evil are they? Do you know what I mean? And I'm not saying,

there aren't people at the very top who are getting away with things who are avoiding tax or whatever. But the truth is, I think, if people understood how fucking hard it is to run a business of any kind, and most big businesses started out as a small business, their attitude would be different.

I agree with you. By the way, this is an era where you and I have sparked a lot because you're coming with your working class credentials, the who's responsible, the rich must, you know. Yeah. Look, the problem is that I think when people talk about these things, they talk about it in an emotional way.

Yeah. The reality is, if somebody who's doing very well for themselves and it has a small business... Which we're not. Yeah, send us money. And let's say they're on six figures. That, to me, is not wealth. Yeah.

That's not wealth. It's just income. Yeah, that's someone who's doing well for themselves. And that should be celebrated and all the rest of it. I think what people conflate with the two is people like Bezos who use every loophole possible in order to avoid paying cooperation tax. Allegedly.

Allegedly. Please don't sue us. If you do, actually it'd be good to sue us because then we get loads of publicity. But I think that's what people mean. Yeah, but there's like five people like that in the world. Yeah.

And they should all pay more tax. I agree. Their company should. But that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is like, You and I had a big debate about the strikes recently, right? And the nurses, for example, are asking for a 19% pay increase. Yeah, which is unrealistic.

Well, I agree with you. But my point is something else, which is this. Like, for example, with trigonometry, right, we've actually taken a huge risk in getting the studio. We spent probably the best part of 40 grand building what we need, right? And that is, that's, we built a war chest over the last year because we knew we were going to step up to this level. Yeah.

Right. But right now, I'm sitting here thinking, well, you know, you and I have already, and Anton, have taken a pay cut just so we can keep all our staff who we need to make the show and so we can continue to pay for this year. And I'm looking at our finances going, we better fucking step our game up next year because I don't know how we're going to find the money

to pay for everything that we need, you know. And I think most small businesses in this country, particularly in the current economy, are operating on exactly the same basis. They're just making due, and just trying to make sure they don't have to lay off people around Christmas and so they can have the money to organize a Christmas party and all of that sort of thing. And that is, to significant extent, what a lot of people who are creating the jobs in this country

are going through. It's not like their life is plain sailing. No. And yet whenever we have these conversations in public, it seems to me like we demonize the very people who create the jobs and the opportunities for people in this country by taking a risk, man. Let's be honest, You and I didn't take any money out of trigonometry. And in fact, we paid our own money into trigonometry so we could pay Anton the measly sum of 500 quid a month to edit all our episodes, right?

And by a mistake, even though it was a vegetarian. And we did that for, what, two and a half, three years? Right? It wasn't until the pandemic. Yeah, that we started to take. That we started, we got any salary at all. So, and we basically, I mean, not every small business does this, but you and I essentially ruined our existing careers

and made ourselves very toxic in the comedy industry because we believed in what we believed in. So we stepped up and we took a risk and now, thank God that I don't believe in, but thank God we've created a small business that employs over 10 people. And those people now not only have a salary, they have a meaningful, they have meaningful work.

And I don't know if you feel this way, but for me, other than family, that is the number one priority in my life to do something that I believe in, that I'm passionate about. And the truth is, this is the first job that I've ever had

when I felt like that. You know, and I know that for many of the people who work on trigonometry, they feel the same way. They feel the same way. And that means something,

and that's valuable. And yet, you know, people who do that and who create those small businesses, they're sort of seen as these, you know, they're somehow suspect. Yeah.

And I used to feel that. I remember when we had Rupert Lowe on the show, you know, low business guy, owner of Southampton formerly, et cetera. And he talked about, you know, well, our staff this. And there's always like, well, you're this posh guy with loads of money and whatever. But the more we do this, the more I realize that, well, of course, there will be some people

who get involved in all sorts of shenanigans and whatever, for the most part, people who start businesses are actually really important. And I don't think they get enough credit in this country. I think in America, they almost get too much credit, you know. and there's not enough expected of them in terms of contributing to society. But I think in this country, we have it the wrong way around as well.

Yeah, well, small businesses are the bedrock of our economy. Yeah. They always have been, and hopefully they always will be. And that's why I was so against a lot of what the pandemic, the actions and the policies brought in

by the pandemic, because it was to punish the small business owner, the average person, you know, with the mom-and-pop business, as they call it in the States, whilst effectively giving helping hands to the huge conglomerates and letting these small businesses go to the wall. And it was a tragedy.

And look, I do agree with you. I think this country is built economically on the backs of small businesses who do a lot of good, who do a lot of good not only for themselves and for this country, but for society as a whole. You look, people, the staff who come in and work with us learn far more than if they went to work for a CNN or an MSNBC or BBC, not to say that they won't learn because of course they will.

But when you get involved in this type of production, you have to learn so many things. You have to be more flexible. The skill set that you generate as a result of that is just far broader and deeper. And look, I do agree with you that we don't give small business owners enough credit. I think the problem is that our culture and our society when it comes to finance and economics is illiterate.

A lot of people don't understand. They think that if you're an entrepreneur or if you're someone who's got your own business, that automatically means you're very wealthy. When the reality is a very high percentage of small businesses fail, most businesses just make it to the end of the month if they can pay everyone and the guy at the top, or the lady, yes.

Unlikely. Yeah, unlikely. statistically, draws a salary. That's a win. They're jokes, guys. That's a win. Yeah, completely. And that, but that's how, I mean,

trigonometry has been like that since forever. And it's like that now. I think people see the numbers and they see how many people we have on our locals. But this is literally, it's hand-to-mouth every month. We build up a war chest to be able to do this. That's gone now. And our costs of, I mean, this studio costs about three times

to four times as much as our last ones. And that's why you and I are taking less money and so is Anton just so that we can manage it. And, you know, I'm already thinking, you know, we've got to come back next year and do this and do this and do this and do that. Because, you know, I hope people watching this understand this isn't making Francis and Constantine wealthy project at all in the slightest. No, this has always been a passion project. Yeah. It always has. And to be, but the reason is, it's like for us to be able to do this as a job is, is that, is that,

the best thing that's ever happened. Of course it is. In our professional careers, this is the best thing that's ever happened. Yeah. Of course it is, because it's very rare people are in control of their own destiny. Even top-level comedians.

Yeah. You know, you're still at the whims of... Say the wrong thing. Yeah. You still... And the casting agents and the booking agents and the directors and fashion, all of a sudden you may be flavor of the month,

one moment, the winds change for whatever reason. and you're not as desirable, you're not as bookable. You know, there's always a new, hot, young thing that's coming onto the scene. So we're very blessed to be in control of our own destiny. Yeah. And we work very hard because of that. Yeah, and we work very hard because of that.

But there is something very special to going into work and knowing that you are the one who is going to make the decisions that ultimately will lead to success or failing. Yeah, absolutely. So I suppose the point of this section is, give us money. I'm joking, but not joking. Hey Francis, do you like locals? I live in London, mate. So obviously not. The only pleasure I get from the locals is when we share an intimate moment as we watch a Japanese tourist get trapped in a tube door.

That is good. But I wasn't talking about their locals. I was talking about our community on locals. You mean the one where you get? Get phenomenal behind the scenes content when you... ...that you... ...when you get to ask incredible guests like Jordan Peterson, Brett Weinstein, Bill Burr, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla, Heather Heying... ...and others your questions? Not just that, you can get supporter-only benefits like trigonometry mugs,

monthly calls with other top supporters and even a regular meal with me and Francis. You also get... phenomenal behind-the-scenes footage of our trip to America where we met a whole host of incredible guests and gave ourselves terminal indigestion. We're also starting to do monthly giveaways for locals only. The first one will be signed copies of Andrew Doyle's new book. Plus, you get access to an incredible community

of like-minded people who share memes, have fun conversations, and most importantly, you get to make new friends. support us with as little as $7 or about £5 a month, or give us more for the higher tier benefits. Go to trigonometry.locals.com. Go to trigonometry dot locals.com and support the show. You mentioned the pandemic, Francis. Now, that seems to be over. I mean, it's not. Yeah. Well, isn't it? No. What do you mean? Well, I don't, I mean, well, I mean, COVID is still there, but I'm not talking about that. I'm saying that the consequence.

Well, that's what I want to talk about. Yeah. So, for me, this is, the pandemic was everybody going out and splashing the cash. All of a sudden, we've woken up to the credit card bill, and everybody here is wondering, how the hell are we going to pay it? I agree. And I think, obviously, the economy, you know, poverty kills people. Yeah.

Fuel poverty kills people, and it will kill a lot of people this winter. And that is the product of partly of many things, but one of them is, is, is, the spending during the pandemic. We have record excess deaths in this country at the moment. And we warned about this. We had many guests on the show to warn that these decisions that were being made were not cost-free. And yet we were, you know, people would attack us

and, you know, say we're being irresponsible and whatever, even though I think the truth is we've been proven right on that. That's also the government's fault as well, because the government scared people. Yeah. They put the fear of God into them. And, you know, people were terrified of this virus. And look, let's be honest, it's a nasty bug.

Well, you and I've had it three times now. And the first, well, for you, all three were quite bad. Yeah. Wasn't they? The third one was all right. Whereas for me, the first one was barely noticeable. And the middle one was really bad last year. And the one we had recently was, it wasn't fun, but it was okay.

Yeah. So it's not pleasant, for sure. even for no longer young, no longer healthy, but whatever we are. Yeah, middle-aged men. Middle-aged men. But, and also, it's important that we say this, chronic financial mismanagement, and there was a lot of money that was, let's put it bluntly, misappropriated.

Of course, but that's always going to happen when everyone's in a panic and, you know, whatever. Not to excuse it, of course, but that was always going to happen. You know, I haven't told the story, I think, on camera before, but it just illustrates to me some of the lengths that people were prepared to go to and I don't think people really get it

so exactly a year ago there was a protest in Parliament Square that Silky Carlo organized one of our former guests from Big Brother Watch which was against vaccine mandates and Sophie our video editor and I, Harmon who works for us as well and I, we went along

to protest and we got It was a miserable, wet, windy December day. It was really unpleasant. We got to Parliament Square, and there was, I don't know, maybe 150 people there. It was the dampest of all squibs. You know, it was muddy. And then we got there, and because I'd been quite outspoken about this issue, and a lot of the people who were there would have known me.

Silky shoved a megaphone in my hand. and you know I said something I don't remember. Where do I say? I don't know what to say. I don't know what I feel today. It feels like a very strange time to be alive in this country. I'm an immigrant to this country. I came here in 1995. I was brought up in the Soviet Union

and we saw the erosion of our freedoms and civil liberties immediately and also over time. And that's why I'm here and that's why I'm talking about this stuff because that is what is happening. Your rights are being taken away. I know that you might feel underwhelmed by the number of people here. I know that sometimes it feels like you're protesting, you're speaking out against it, nothing is happening.

But know that people are watching, people are hearing what you're saying. And we've got to keep it up. We've got to keep it up. We can't give up. We can't stop talking about it. We can't stop protesting about it. And when people see that more and more people are against this stuff, they will support us and we will make some changes. Thank you very much for coming out today.

And when Sophie and I were coming back to the studio, I was so deflated by the whole experience because I was just like, look, we live in a country of people who've given in. They've accepted the idea that medical staff and care workers, et cetera, should be fired from their jobs that they've done in many cases for decades because they don't want to be vaccinated for whatever reason. And they must be made to be vaccinated. And I felt so few myself, I think most of us felt that it was just, it was wrong. Yep.

It was a line that must never be crossed. But I felt going back on the tube or wherever it was, I just felt really deflated by the fact that so few people were out there. And we were clearly not going to have an impact and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But eventually the government did reverse that decision. And what was fascinating was that when my wife was giving birth, she was playing. she was planning to give birth at home and that's not how it worked out she spent the whole pregnancy

being all holistic and blah blah blah blah blah but we actually ended up having to go to hospital a quite short notice with her screaming in the back of the car it was quite an experience and then she had a long and it wasn't long but it was arduous labour and she was really adamant that she did not want to have any medical intervention

unless it was absolutely necessary but it was looking very much like she was going to have to have a C-section. And I knew that, you know, it really wasn't going to be mentally good for her. She would blame herself and she'd be upset and whatever. And it was a long, I don't want to get into all the details, but it was a really long and an arduous labor and it was very stressful. And actually, her plan was that I wouldn't be in the room when she was giving birth. She was going to have it all, you know, in the dark and blah, blah, blah.

But I was in the room and I had to kind of talk to the midwives and sort of manage the whole process to something. some extent. And right as things were looking really bad, this midwife came in who hadn't been there before. And she was absolutely brilliant. And because of her, because of this one woman, my wife was able to give birth naturally and our son popped out and he was all healthy, even though it'd been, you know, there was some risk involved and whatever. And after all, you know, he was born, he was covered in myconeum,

which is like baby poo, which means that he was getting to the point where he was distressed in the womb. And when he was born, he was this tiny little thing, and he popped out, and as he popped out, this midwife started, like,

rubbing him with a towel, and she went, pull the emergency cord, and, like, someone pulled the emergency cord and, like, seemingly dozens of people ran into the room, and I just stood in the corner like this as they all did something. Eventually, they cut the umbilical cord and this neopathologist came in, looked at him,

made sure he was okay, and he was absolutely fine. So happy ending. And then when they all left, and it was just us with our son and this midwife, and she started asking us various questions, and one of them for the medical questionnaire was, are you vaccinated? She had to ask my wife. and my wife didn't want to get vaccinated because during her pregnancy

because I think a lot of women were concerned about it and who knows if they were right or not but my wife felt very strongly that she didn't want to be and this midwife who had been incredible asked this question and I felt bad because I was like well I'm sure she'll think that my wife's made the wrong whatever and I started going well you know

sort of making excuses almost And she went out, don't worry, I'm not vaccinated. And I was like, really? And we started talking about it. And then eventually I said, so you must have felt very strongly about the government trying to mandate these vaccines. And she went, yeah, I was going to quit. And my son would not have been born the way that he was born if she hadn't been there. You know?

And so when I think back to that pointless protest and whatever, and I don't know if it made any difference. at all. But I felt that the stand that we took and many other people took at the time for what we believed in, even though who knows what impact we had. But it was important that somebody made that stand. And by the way, I probably caught COVID at that protest. It's quite possible, because that was the day we had, it might have been at that protest or it might have been in the evening where we had one of our lives. Yeah, I remember it. So we either caught it there or we gave it to everybody there, who knows, right? But it wasn't impact free, my point is this. Neither us being public about our opinions at the time

or going to that protest or doing any of the other things that we did. And yet in some small way, I feel like the way he was born was a reward for us making that stand. And I think during the pandemic, we really found out who's who in terms of who's going to be there when the vast majority of people go off the deep end like Lemmings. And that's, I'm sorry, I know that people were scared, but that's what I feel people were doing during the pandemic.

I think a lot of people panicked. I think a lot, and people in government too, overreacted, went too far. I think red lines were crossed on many occasions. And I'll be honest with you, man. I don't think we're going to get the sort of public inquiry we need to make sure it doesn't happen again. And I think that the next time there is a pandemic,

I think it will be as bad if not worse. IP vanish protects every device you own, Your phone, your laptop, your smart TV. If it connects to the internet, it should be protected. IPVANISH encrypts your connection and masks your IP address, helping keep your browsing private at home and on public Wi-Fi. And with no device limits, one account covers everything. Stream with added privacy.

Browse securely. Connect with confidence. Right now, save 83% off the two-year plan. Get started today at IPVanish.com slash audio and take control of your privacy with IPVanish. Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. I think, unfortunately, some lessons are too painful for people to be able to digest. And I think the pandemic is going to be one of those things. I think people behaved, some people behaved so awfully that it is probably going to be too painful for them to look at their own people. behaviour and to be able to analyse it and actually learn from it. Some people will. Some people will hold up their hands and go, you know what? I was really wrong on this one. I was really

wrong when it came to vaccines. I was really wrong with the vaccine mandates. I was really, really out of line the way I spoke to certain people. But I don't think a lot of people will want look at it like that. I think a lot of people will frame it as, it was a pandemic, what are you going to do? And then move on. And the sad thing is, is not learn from it. Because I think that moment that we all went through, I think it was a moment which revealed a lot of things. When moments of crisis happen, that's when the mask slips with people. And you actually see people for who they truly are, both good and bad, of which we have in all of us. But I think with a lot of people, you saw the authoritarianism come out.

You saw the desire to control people. You saw the anger. You saw also the fear and how fear does... You know, people say that jealousy is a very toxic emotion, and jealousy does create toxic emotions and makes people do awful things. many ways fear does as well. Because if you think your own health or your safety is on the line, then you will do whatever it takes in order to make sure that you were safe. And if that means throwing somebody metaphorically in the way of fire? The thing that bothered me about it was

irrationality as well, though. Because you and I, look, you and I also adjusted our views over the course of the pandemic and our own experience with COVID was a bit of a wake-up call because I think we were perhaps a little bit too laxidaisical about it at times. You know, I mean, ultimately, I think we were broadly speaking on the right path, which was, you know, the vaccine is really good for people who are elderly or vulnerable, but probably not necessarily necessary for other people, particularly those who've had the disease before and who've got some natural immunity. And we kind of stuck to that.

the rationality, like when he was very clear that lockdowns were not saving life, when it was very clear that masks didn't actually prevent the transmission of COVID, when it was very clear that COVID vaccines are not effective enough at preventing transmission to demand that people inject something to their body that we now know, as we knew at the time, carers with certain risks. To force people to do that, just, I think to me, that goes beyond authoritarianism, and it is, like I say, it's a red line. Bodyly autonomy is such a fundamental thing about what it means to be human.

The idea that I don't get to inject things in your body. I mean, it's not complicated, is it? No. But people were willing to invent all sorts of excuses at the time. And there will be people out there now who demand that. And it also, it moved into other realms as well. like it's quite common now for people to go, well, someone says something I don't like,

they should be arrested. Yeah. Arrested for saying something. And it just, that creep of, I get to control other people because I don't like what they do. There was moments during the pandemic, and we've talked about it before,

and we were not, as trigonometry, as a business, we were not ready to upsticks and move to another country. We weren't big enough, We didn't have the resources, the finances. We didn't have money in the bank to be able to do it. But despite that, me, you and Anton were sitting there going, look, if this other thing happens, we have to think about moving to America.

And like one of two states in America where you can have freedom still. Because I just thought we went so, so far in this country. And it scared me. And I'll be honestly, you know I love this country, but I have to say, fundamentally changed my view of this country, I think, forever. Yeah. Forever. It changed my view of this country.

I was shocked at how many people relished the petty authoritarianism. And I don't use that word lightly. They loved it. They did. They absolutely loved the opportunity to tell their fellow citizen what to do, how to do it, when to do it, where to do it. and you just think this isn't the country that I grew up in

this isn't the liberal tolerant society that I thought that I lived in the amount of people who just there's the glee that they felt that they could tell another person what to do with their body where to go how to behave

it really disillusioned me because I remember when I was a kid and every time I went to Van Gogh. Venezuela and Venezuela has always been chaos. That's the way it always is. You know, it's Latin America. And I always remember coming back to England and just as a kid, even as a kid, like breathing a sigh of relief because it felt sane. And I remember in the pandemic going, this is insane. This is the definition of insane. The way we're living, the way that people are behaving, the policies. None of this makes any sense. And I was the one

I'm going to be honest I still want to leave Do you? Yeah How come? I don't see a lot of future in this country Why not? Economically it's broken I don't think we have the caliber of politicians to lead us out of this

Either right or left, this isn't a partisan thing If I saw incredible people on the left I'd be like, yep I don't see anybody on the right who's a strong enough figure to actually come out and be honest with the population. I don't see people with character or vision on either side. I think this is, we're in a really tough time. And if it was just a tough time, but there were people that I looked at who I thought,

we can get behind them as a country, I wouldn't be worried. That's not where my worry comes from, the fact that we are in this financial situation. it's the fact that I'm looking at people in government, in power. Who is there? That's what worries me. I understand. I wonder, though, I mean, if you were living through the 1990s, would you have not felt the same?

The 1990s? Yeah. What part of the 90s? The early 90s. John Major's government or the end of Thatcher or whatever, it's all limping to the death now, to whatever the fucking metaphor is, limping into their own government.

grave, right? And then Tony Blake comes along. Yeah. Fawks it all up. Invades Iraq, mate. No, but you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. Look, I think to despair at the fact that our politicians are not able to deal with the problems that the country faces is correct.

But where are you going to go? I would rather go to somewhere. I'd rather go to America. Yeah. And look. Who are the politicians of vision and leadership there? Trump.

An AOC. An AOC. I just, I find the American spirit invigorating. So do I. So do I. But the question for us is, see, I don't want to leave anymore. I think when we were in America,

it was exhilarating. Yeah. And we were going to, if we can fund them, we will do two more trips next year to go and interview big guests and continue our expansion and we have a huge audience in America, you know. I think the UK is something like 40%

and America is 40% for us. So, you know, we've got as big an audience in America as we do here. But I think that, first of all, I don't like running from challenges, number one. Number two, America has all these same problems, not economically quite as much, but culturally, many other problems are worse in the United States. And you want to have children eventually, and I have one already and maybe more later. I know people who live in America now who are saying, like, I want to move back because I can't face putting my children in this education system.

And also, I mean, if Tim Pool will have you believe. and, you know, him and I disagreed with him about this on his show, and he followed me on Twitter straight afterwards. But, you know, there are a lot of people like Tim who are pushing the Civil War narrative very hard. And that's, you know, probably because, you know, it generates a lot of attention. But also because there are people who are, we saw this too when we were in America.

There are many people in America who are very polarized and they have guns. Yeah. Right. So I think I understand what you're saying. And I understand, but I also think that on these cultural topics that we talk about on the show, we can win the fight in the UK in a way that you're not going to win in America. You're just, the trans issue is not going to be like it is in the UK.

No. We are winning here. We are winning and we are going to win. And you and I have put our reputations on the line and our careers on the line to get people on the show who could explain that issue to us. And once we understood what was going on, there was no way back, right? And the more we talk about it, the more we understand that there's no way back.

And we're not going to give up until that issue is dealt with properly, right? And we're making progress. The Tavistock is shut down and is being sued. And I'm not saying we did that, of course. But we did have one of the whistleblowers on the show and other people talking about. Mermaids has now been exposed for what it is. The gender recognition.

You know, we're making progress. And I believe on that issue, we can win the fight. The free speech issue is more difficult here than it is in America. But I just think we can make more of an impact here. And look, the fact is we're a British show, man. Yeah. See, that is true. I think a lot of our American audience wouldn't watch us if we were just like, you know, the sixth best Joe Rogan in America.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely. I do understand that. I do understand that. And it is a good point to make. I, to me, the pandemic was something. Look, we did very well out of the pandemic. We all improved ourselves massively.

The pandemic helped to create this. It just, seeing what happened to the country that I grew up in, to the people that I identified with, the behavior, the politicians, the rhetoric, it took me back. I understand that. I think the other piece I would maybe add is that you've got to realize that in America,

a lot of that was happening at any even higher level. And they went more extreme. Of course, in the Democrats, particularly in blue states like New York, etc. But also, I would say that this is, again, like that guy said to you, it's victim mentality. I think this is an opportunity for you to recognize the scale of what we've created here.

You know, people sometimes say to me, Constantine, why don't you run for parliament? And I'm like, because I'd have less influence being an MP than doing trigonometry. And that's true of you too. Yeah. Like, we are one of the biggest independent media shows in this country.

Yeah. And of course, we don't have the ear of government. But we are helping to shape the way that at least our part of society looks at things and things and we're bringing interesting people on. I think I don't think we'll be leaving is the truth. No, I don't think we'll be leaving either. And that being the case, I think it's time for both of us to accept the challenge that's been thrown down to us.

We've created this. A lot of people listen and watch our show, listen to our show and watch it. It's our job to stand up for what we believe in and to bring on people who we think are doing that. And of course, we're always going to give a voice to different views and people who agree with us and people who disagree with us.

But I think particularly on this authoritarianism issue, it's our job to be the voice of people who don't want that in their country. And the most gratifying comment that you've always said to me, and I agree with this, The most gratifying comment you and I received from people who come up to us in the street or message in or whatever is you got me through the pandemic.

And part of that was for a lot of people hearing that dissident voice going, no, we're not accepting this. No, this isn't normal. No, this isn't natural. No, it's going too far. Yeah. All the catchphrases. All the catchphrases.

But a guy came up to me in the shopping mall once, it was a few months ago now. and he had these three little children with him. And one of the, for people who don't watch our raw shows, which is like a current affairs daily satirical show that we do like a live stream every few, we do three times a week. One of the catchphrases, whenever we talked about Jacinda Dern,

particularly her or Australia, was like, get in the camp, you get in the camp, you get. That was the thing. We're going to need to bleep out because YouTube, I said it again, YouTube demonetizes any video with that wording. And he came up to me, he said, mate, or thank you so much, you got us through the pandemic. And then one of these, like, eight-year-olds went, he'd get in the camp.

And he was like, he doesn't know the other part of it. But my point is, you know, we contributed to people. And a lot of people said we kept them sane and whatever. That's our job, man. And I understand the appeal. And there are so many great things about America. But the way I feel about it, look at the students. The reason the studio exists is partly because we went to America and we saw how people who do what we do in America do it.

And they have their own compound where they have a nice green room and a place for people to hang out and a big studio and their own space. And they're not moving from residential apartment to residential apartment as we used to do. That's why we've stepped up. And I believe our fans will back us. They will make it possible for us to carry on doing this. And we got to pay them back, man. And I think that's our job. That's our mission.

That's our project. So I understand the temptation of the United States. I just think we've got to take that spirit and bring it here. And it's going to be fucking hard because lots of people in this country don't want that. They don't want the go-get mindset. They don't want that. They want to, you know, this is the thing that really bothers me so much. It's like so many people in this country just want the government to take care of them.

Of course. But that's for the pandemic exposed. I know. The amount of people I saw him. Facebook going, oh, the government have to take care of me. I'm like, why? The thing is, there's no such thing as the government. The government

is just other people in the country who pay taxes so that you can get what you want. That's what it is. There's no such thing as the government. The government is just the entity that administers the money they get from other citizens. And why do you deserve special treatment?

You know, it doesn't mean we shouldn't have a welfare state and a safety net to catch people if they fall, and we've all been there to some extent, you know. But I think we need to, you know, we need to step up, man, rather than running away and going, well, I am disappointed, and you are with the way that things happen, but we've got to step up. That's what I feel. And we've got to play our part, and, you know, we didn't intend, we started a podcast to understand what was happening in the world, but now we are a voice for some people.

And we have to do right by them, I feel. And so that's why I don't want to leave. I think when we were in America, we talked about it. And look, who knows what the future brings? But I think for the foreseeable future, I feel that it's our job to stay and it's our job to fight. It's our job to fight. You know, there are a lot of people who start a show and some of them will have more viewers and more followers, and that's fine. who they just interview celebrities about, you know,

what was it like to be depressed and what was it like to be this and how did you become successful? And those are really interesting things to watch and enjoy. But I think for us, we talked about it being more of a passion project. And that's, I think, how a lot of people experience what we do. It's partly about passion and it's partly about bringing common sense and rational discussion and honest discussion of, difficult subjects so that things actually change as a result.

You know, we're not just creating entertainment for people to just watch while they make dinner. There's also, there's a mission here too. And I think we have a responsibility to be true to that. Yeah. Look, I agree with all those things. And I think what I was saying when it was about America, it's just legitimately how I feel about my disappointment. Yeah.

With everything that was happening and the political class. I do agree with you. The reason that we created this show was because we wanted to find out what's going on. And now when we've seen what we've seen and what we've experienced, and you see the injustices and you see the things that don't get talked about, but they should be spoken about. And the thing that really annoys me is when people are too scared to have a conversation and to actually be honest and frank about it and how the moment certain subjects pop up, people immediately try and almost like whack-a-mole,

hit them on their head because they don't want to address them. You know, the migrant crisis. And what happens is then people start talking, they just start saying narratives, things like, you know, these people are desperate and they've come over here and, you know, every person, no person is illegal, whatever it may be, and that we should look after these people,

and you go, well, look, on one level, of course, you are right. But that's not how real life works. That's not how you have a functioning country. You're not even doing the right by these people by doing that. All their countries. All their countries. And all you're doing is facilitating organized crime. But if you're not prepared to have the conversation,

then you're not prepared to actually try and come to some kind of solution. And that's what I think that the most important thing that we do is, is to model respectful conversation. About right-wing talking points. Exactly. Because by doing that, that's the only way you're going to come to a solution.

That's the only way you're going to be able to solve these particular issues. And there are several examples where you can tell that that has absolutely been the case. I mean, if you look at the issue of grooming games, the episode that we've done

that I'm most proud of, and I always say this is with Ella Hill. Yeah. I think she's an extraordinary woman and that episode that we did with her is an extraordinary episode. I mean, we're talking to a survivor of gang, rape and abuse

over a long period of time. And it's funny. I mean, and that's all credit to her, by the way, because she was brilliant. That's why when we were on Joe Rogan, it was one of the first things that we talked about because, you know, I knew it was going to come up one way or another. I mean, you got in there early with the pido banter.

But, you know, it needs talking about it. And look where we are now. Now everyone accepts that the grooming gangs happen. Now everyone accepts that it needs to be dealt with. Now everyone accepts it's a big problem. I'm not saying we did that. We didn't do that. There were many, many more people who campaigned about it.

But people like Ella and others. And so whether it's the transgender issue, whether it's the migrant crisis, whether it's, and people say, well, these are right wing, there'll be left wing points as well that we've covered on the show. You know, our episode with Julie Bindle, for example, right?

these things you know the first man through the breach always takes most of the arrows but for whatever reason you and I want to be that first man you know or maybe we don't want to be we'll just feel a duty to be to some extent not saying we're first on any issues before people get carried away but we

we feel it's our duty to address the things that people don't want to talk about that need talking about well the whole point of trigonometry is that you're going to the eye of the storm that's a whole point of it And that's what people want from us, is to go into the eye of the storm and to talk about these big contentious issues that people are too scared to talk about,

that politicians, when they go on the question time, they will give empty platitudes. Because nobody really wants to talk about the truth of the subject, whatever the subject may be. And that's really our job. Yeah. Well, speaking of question time, you reminded me that there's actually been a lot of personal accolades

that you and I both have achieved this year, stuff going on. You've just had a tour, and you're about, I mean, by time this out, you will have finished your dates and other things going on. What have you really enjoyed this year? I've really enjoyed, and this is going to sound wanky, I've really enjoyed the journey of it.

Gay. Gay. Don't agree with it. It's not natural. I've really enjoyed the journey of it. I've enjoyed where we started from. You know, the, the... I didn't.

But no, it's important. It's really, you know, I always, I remember when I started comedy and I was working with comedians, they were always going, I can't wait to get off the open mic and I get on to do bigger gigs. I want to do this, I want to do that, I don't want to be here. And I was always, my attitude was always like, no, you should enjoy this. You should, you should remember this. Because if you don't, then you're not going to be able to appreciate what's gone. and what is coming. You're not. Think about the first interview we ever did where there was a

beeping car alarm and we had to run around and then the person was furious because it turns out they'd come from a funeral and then we had to, our first ever interview started with me giving a gruffling apology. You could argue that's the way it's been for the rest of time, but you need to go through those experiences. You need to go through the being asked to leave studios. You need to be going through, you know, the arguments. You need to go through. I agree with you, but it was fucking hard. It was hard. And I was looking at our stats the other day because a friend of us started a YouTube channel.

And we did 11 interviews, including with Brendan O'Neill, Claire Fox and Diana Fleiss. And we'd been going for two months. And we hadn't even got 500 subscribers. Yeah. But... That's how hard it was.

It was really hard. And at this point, we're paying our own money. There's no guarantee of success. Of course. We're fucking going from studio to studio. It was brutal. It was brutal. But we had to go through it.

I agree. If we had... I didn't enjoy it, though. No, no. No, no, no. But you did. You did. Do you remember when we first went to the Soho Theatre to watch Andrews?

show and Diana Fleischman broke 20,000 views, how excited we were. Yeah. And you went to me, it's not always going to be like this. You've got to temper your expectations. Do you remember that? Yeah. Do you remember walking out of that interview with Brendan and being like, oh, this was brilliant.

Or when Sargon came and then we had that rush of subs and we got to 3.5,000. Do you remember that? Yeah, that was big. I remember you shitting yourself when interviewing Saigon. Yeah, of course. I did, because I saw my career disappearing in front of my eyes. Correct. Do you remember when we went to that conference and then we first met Douglas Murray and then we interviewed him? And then the interview got cut short, not for technical reasons, but because the cleaner wanted to come and clean and she

had to kick us out. It wasn't a cleaner, actually. It was a woman who had booked the room for something else. Yeah. But you assumed she was a cleaner. Exactly. Because she was a woman. And it was tough, but there was joy. there. There was a famous, you know, there was a band Nirvana and there was a lead scene was called Kurt Cobain. Even I've heard of them. Yeah. And on his guitar, he always had a sticker which said the beauty is the struggle. And it is. Because that's what makes you appreciate it. And the moments when you're in the struggle, that's what forges you. That's what makes you tough the fire. It's not the easy part. It's not going on Rogan. It's not, I mean, look, America was

great, but why was it so good? The reason it was so good. We worked for it. It's because we started in a pub. No one gave us anything. And we went from that to there. And if people had given us things and it was, it wouldn't have been a sweet. We had to do that. It's only by having that, do you get the joy? And even in those tough, tough moments, there were still moments. There was still moments of joy. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. It's true. I have to say, though, I enjoy my life a lot more now, you know, and it's been, you know, obviously my son being born and all that, but it was the year, it was the year that I was on Question Time. My book was a Sunday Times bestseller. I mean, it's embarrassing how few books you have to sell to get on that list. It really is. And as I realize

now, no one makes any money selling books, basically, unless you become, like, even if you're a Sunday Times bestseller, not particularly. But it's still an accomplishment. And it hasn't gone out yet, and I can't wait for it to go out, but I did a debate at the Oxford Union. And let's just say I didn't hold back. So I'm looking forward to that coming out. So those were really exciting moments for me this year.

In addition to, obviously, the America trip going on Rogan, interviewing some of the guests that we've interviewed over the course of the last year. And, you know, this studio is, is, the big, big next step. Yeah. Big next step. And it's a risk. You know, we've jumped perhaps a little bit further than we ought to have done if we

were being prudent. But I think and hope that our ambition will be rewarded. I think it will be rewarded. I think it will be rewarded. Because ultimately, you need to overreach yourselves at times. Because it's only by doing that can you actually get to the next level. And a lot of the time you need to make that leap. And we were forced to make that leap.

So... Yeah, but we didn't have to do this. We didn't have to build our own studio from the ground up, basically, because this was just one empty room, and now it's a studio with a green room and an office area and whatever. But we wanted to do it because we saw that... We did have to do it. Why?

Because... We didn't have to move here. We could have moved to another flat. No, but we did have to do it because it was what was needed, so we had to do it. What I'm saying is we could have played it safe. When have we ever played it safe? That's a good question. We haven't. The whole point of trigonometry is that you never play it safe.

You just don't. If we played it safe, none of this would exist. It's true. The podcast wouldn't exist. The show wouldn't exist. Nothing that we ever did was about playing it safe. That's why it succeeded, because you don't succeed by playing it safe. Yeah, it's true.

Well, I hope we carry that on then, because, yeah, we've got a lot of work, and we've got some, already got some brilliant guests lined up for next year. We've got to finish the studio, we've got to get the neons up. There's lots of stuff that we've yet to do. But we've already recorded some great interviews in here, too. Some brilliant interviews. Yeah. So what are you looking forward to next year?

I'm looking forward to, I should have mentioned my tour, I love my tour, I love meeting the trigonometry fans, that was so fun. The feedback that I got from people, the gigs that we did, and I say we did because the audience is always 50%. Choice Hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort in, it's calling your name. Save on the stay. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct at Soyshotales.com. Whanky shit, not true.

But they always are. And I couldn't have asked for better audiences. They were great. And I'm looking forward to doing more comedy. I'm looking forward to, I'm going to be doing more shows next year. I'm going to be doing some more of my tour. I'm going to do it in cities like Glasgow. I'm going to be going up to the northwest.

So I'm really looking forward to doing that. I'm really looking forward to doing more comedy and just being, and getting a chance to be more creative. That's what I'm looking forward to. Really, because like you, we've just been so focused on this, making this the very best it can be. So actually, just taking some more time just to get back to being creative, which was always my first love anyway.

I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah, that's exciting, man. That's really great for you. And I think it's really important because Roy is a great comedic outlet for you, but you always love stand-up. Yeah. There's nothing like it. I disagree, but you think that way.

Yeah, yeah. So that's what matters. It's because you've forgotten. No. Yeah, yeah. I haven't. You and I have done live shows. We did a live show,

and we did two live shows in Edinburgh. Yeah, but it's not stand-up. I just think we're very different people psychologically. Yeah. I think you really crave that attention and love from the audience, and I never really cared about the audience. Yeah. I didn't.

Yeah. It's like I think it was either Bill Hicks or George Carlin when he was getting heckled. He said to the heckler, they're here for me and I am too. Yeah. Like that was always, I mean, maybe it's slightly psychopathic, but I always wanted to get away from a gig the moment I was done. I never really wanted to meet audiences. With our shows, I do. Because they're trigonometry fans, but at stand-up, I never really wanted to do that.

I did it when I was doing my own show a little bit, and it was fun. But I never really felt that desire. But I think you really like that. Yeah. And it's important. That's why to you stand up is so special. To me, that's why I don't do it anymore. If it was that special to me, I'd find a way to do it.

Yeah. But I don't. You know, I am much more excited about my substack than I am about ever doing stand-up again. Yeah. Like, I am really enjoying writing. And the book showed me that writing books is not the way to go. It doesn't mean I won't do another book at some point

if I feel like I'd really want to get something substantive out there. But my substack is really exciting to me. I'm writing articles all the time. I get to express my opinion. And because, you know, I used to write for various newspapers and, but now I can write about whatever I want. I don't have to tie it to a current news event. Not everything has to be, you know, look over here. You know, I can, I can write about something more, more significant or something that happens three years ago that I think is relevant to today or put things in context in a way that you'd never get an opportunity to. And I really enjoy writing I always have done. So I'm really excited about that. In addition, but the thing is,

we've got gigantic plans for trigonometry. Not only the America trips, but also the guests that we're going to get here and all sorts of other stuff that we'll be talking about next year. And, you know, one of the things we're realized is that we need to improve our social media and community management game on locals. We're also getting to the point where Roy is getting so big that frankly, given the outrageous shit that we say on there, that we need to consider paywalling that or paywalling most of that, not because we want to make more money from it, just because we're eventually going to get attacked for.

You know, people, we don't live in a world where people understand jokes anymore. Not. And the stuff that we say on there is all done tongue and cheek with humor, but all it takes is for some twat from the Guardian to clip it out of context, and suddenly we find ourselves in the middle of having to explain why we wear a Nazi hat on, and there's a Nazi voice for a joke, right? So it may be the case that we put out shorter clips on YouTube

after the roar is done or it goes on local, whatever, we'll work it out. But, you know, there's going to be interesting things going on and change is happening, which people always love. They love change them. Yeah, they do, especially like when we just swap seats. Yeah, people have a meltdown when we change seats, so let's see what happens. and we change other stuff around.

But, you know, I'm really excited for next year. And I also feel like we had a Christmas party a couple of days ago and having most, unfortunately, couldn't get everyone here. But most of the people, I think, had so much fun. And they, you know, our team loves being here. They love working on the show. And it's exciting building that with them as well. It is.

It is. It's so invigorates in building this. it's really seeing this come together is honestly one of the most gratifying things that we've done because what we're doing is we're taking a step into the unknown and it's scary

but it's the only way to live because of your bank balance literally but because if you play it safe if you do what everybody else has done,

then you're never really going to be truly successful. But you're also not being true to yourself. I don't think being like everyone else has ever been what either of us has wanted. No. That's why we do this. Yeah. You know.

Man, it's been an incredible year. And, you know, that growth that we're constantly going through is addictive. It is addictive. And you know what? Because when we came back from America, there was various personal things. It was quite a tough time.

It was a tough time for me. And the thing that I realized, and look, it's a truism and everyone knows it, but sometimes you need a good, you need to go through a tough time in order to appreciate it. You learn far more when things aren't going well, both about other people and yourself

than you ever do when things are going well. Because when things are going well, you don't have to really look at yourself. You don't really have to think about your actions or your behaviour or your manner of being, all of these things. But when things are getting tough, that's the moment. And actually, if you're prepared to take on those lessons, you come out a lot strong and a lot better, even though the process of learning those lessons is not pleasant.

Yeah, and I know exactly what you're talking about. And, you know, you had various personal things with family and, you know, you and I are always trying to work out the best way for us. And sometimes that we argue and it's difficult and painful and whatever. But the thing that I've really learned this year is that, look, I've always been a driven person and I've always been successful in the things that I've done. I'm not saying I've always been super, I haven't been super wealthy, but if I've done something, I've done it well and I've had success in it.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to be arrogant. And so I think when, you know, trigonometry goes well and I've got this book and I've got this and I've got that and everything's going great, it's easy to think in that moment that, you know, I'm this and I'm that.

But the truth is that the biggest lesson for me out of recent years and I have doing this is if you want to do something meaningful you can't do it by yourself you know and you've really

taken this you know I remember I hope you don't mind me telling the story but the first time that I said to you let's do this podcast and you were like okay let's do and I said okay cool I've got some contacts that I'll get some people on

and then I came in And I was like, okay, I've got Pippa Malmgren, who's a former presidential advisor to two U.S. presidents. And you looked at me, I thought your ass was going to fall out. Like, you were terrified. Yeah. But you've stepped up so much. Yeah. And you've grown so much.

We all have, of course. But for you especially, I think coming from a pure comedy background, this was a big shift. And, you know, doing the admin that comes with Trigonomche was a challenge for you. And you've really done incredibly well, even though it was a big shift. even though it wasn't always easy for you. And likewise, I mean, think about, like, this studio being built, Anton, who's our producer, he came, he joined Trigonometry to edit the audio and the video, right? And he basically is just overseen construction of a tens of thousands of pounds project by himself

in the middle of dealing with you and I having COVID and him having, he was, He had flu and all this other shit. And he's just completed this. And we've got, you know, Elliot, who's our intern, barely gets any money. And he's created these amazing vlogs. And he's helping Anton and Sophie and our other video. I don't know if she wants to be named. They've stepped up their game in terms of the content that we put out.

And Harmon is doing a great job. And, you know, Sean our image, like everyone is really working their asses off to make the show what it is. And we've got other people who are going to be hopefully joining, you know, helping us improve other bits. And that's what I've realized for me is I've always been a lone wolf in my life. But working with you and working with our team

has shown me, you can be a lone wolf. I'm good at what I do. If I wanted to, you know, if we could pack trigonometry and I could go and write and do whatever, I'd be fine. But if you wanted to create something actually meaningful, you need to do it with other people. Absolutely.

It's the old lesson. It's you need the band. You need the band. Yeah. You know? That's what it is. And we're the band. We've got a great band here.

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