TRIGGERnometry - "Trans Women Are Men … Including Me" - Debbie Hayton

Episode Date: March 31, 2021

Teacher and Journalist Debbie Hayton joins us in the studio. Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a teacher, journalist and self-described opinionated trans woman. David Hayden, welcome to Trigonometry. Hi, nice to meet you, Bill. It's great to meet you, great to have you here. Thank you so much for coming on. We'll get into all your problematic opinions in a second. But just tell everybody a little bit about who are you, how are you where you are. What has been the journey that leads you through life to be sitting here talking to us? Right. Well, I'm a teacher. I've been teaching for 25 years. I live in Birmingham.

I teach a teacher in the West Midlands. I probably wouldn't be sitting here, though, if I hadn't transitioned 10 years ago. And what led you to transition? A mental health crisis, really. I'd had issues with my, well, issues with my gender, I've sometimes described it, but don't try and push me on what that actually means. But I knew I had psychological issues with this from when I was about three years old, but managed to, as many other people do, you manage to keep it in check, get on with life, grow up, you know, get married, have kids, you know, get the job. But around 10 years ago, I just found it increasingly difficult to carry up.

on as I was, as a man, working as a man, living as a man. I felt I should have been a woman. I actually felt, I actually believed at the time I was some sort of woman. So I transitioned. And you got into, certainly came to people's attention, certainly to our attention, when you wore a t-shirt, and help me get this right, because this is all a bit mind-fieldy, you wore a T-shirt saying trans women are men. Really glad you're the one asking this question, mate. Yeah, as am I. I'm right so far?

You're right. I'm right so far. And then there was some, you know, it got in the news and there was a big thing. And then there was a disciplinary action and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, why would you as a trans woman wear a T-shirt saying trans women are men? Well, it's a political statement. I've always wanted to say things what I believe in. As I said, when I transitioned, I thought there was some sort of woman.

By two years ago, when I wore that t-shirt, I realised there was no more a woman than you two are. But we're bombarded with this message that trans women are women, get over it. And there's the second part of the statement which I think is equally important as the first. You know, trans women are women, get over it. The message is to the rest of society, you've got to get over it, you've got a problem. whereas my message was trans women are men, which is an equally valid political statement, but get over it, is directed inwards towards us, because I think if we get over that fact,

we can live much happier lives and much more secure lives and much more confident lives. Do you not think that there's an inherent contradiction, though, because if you are a man, what possible reason would we have to describe you as she and use female pronouns when you're not in the room? Well, it's what you see and how you naturally would describe me. We use pronouns for inanimate objects, like ships can be she. So I would go with pronouns describing sex. But pronouns, when I describe somebody else, the pronouns I use are to help me describe that person to somebody else.

And so if you were describing me as she, if that makes a conversation between you easier, then use it. If you use he, then use he. The important thing about a pronoun is it stands in the way of the noun so that you know exactly which noun or which person you're talking about. The reason I bring it up, Debbie, and I want to get into this a little bit because I think this is where one of the biggest disagreements there is on this issue. And it might feel like we're getting into the weeds to people, but it is important. You know, we had Jordan Peterson on the show a while ago.

And we're talking about the fact that identity is a negotiation, between the individual and society. And so to me, it seems like the concern about ensuring that people use the pronouns which match the gender that you now have is about, say, you know, if I was to say he about a trans woman who wasn't you, that would be me deliberately or possibly deliberately, but it would be me rejecting their attempt to have the identity of a trans woman now. People would argue that.

So the reason I ask you the question is, if you are a man, why would I embrace the identity that you now have, which is you're a trans woman. You've taken steps to appear female, right? You've done that. And that's a reflection of how you feel inside, but it's also a reflection of how you, I'm putting things on you now and you reject them at will,

but you want society to see you a certain way as well. And me using a different pronoun is me saying, I don't see you that way. And that's why I think a lot of people are uncomfortable. Do you see where I'm getting? I see where you're coming from, but it's, you know, it's to me the most important person who thinks it's me. It's how I feel about myself.

The whole process of transition was to help me feel comfortable with my body. you know, why should I care what you think? This is the issue. You think one thing, that shouldn't bother me. If I'm confident in who I am and secure in who I am, your thoughts don't concern me. That sounds I'm being negated towards you now. You're entitled to you.

It just seems that others seem to look to other people to validate them. I want you to think this about me. so I feel good about myself, which is just, it's a fool's game. Because even if you say something, I'm not convinced if you actually believe it. And we get into that point, well, you know, Constance says this, but does he really mean it? And I want you to be honest, you know, and use whichever pronouns you like. It doesn't, it doesn't bother me. In real life where people know me, there's a mixture you use.

Some people use female pronouns about me, others use. male pronouns about me. And it really, it really, it really, it really doesn't matter. Really? No, it doesn't matter at all. So my, my children use male pronouns because I'm their father. But we just, we just go with it. So, you know, the, the phone, we still have a landline. And it still takes calls, which are not people trying to sell us stuff or tell us our internet's going to be cancelled. That's how I know you're from the north. Yeah. But people ring. And so we've got the kids who have been using male pronouns. So I'll hear this and hear that. And that's fine. And then the phone will go and I'll say, and one of my kids will ring, I'll go get out for you. And, you know, so it's just, they're just labels these pronouns.

So let's say you had a colleague or someone you knew who insisted on calling you by the incorrect pronouns. You wouldn't be upset, offended, angry. even if you said to them, look, I prefer these pronouns. No, well, no. No. Well, I wouldn't guard my word to say you must use this pronoun. Yeah. When I transitioned, there were two tests of whether you've made a successful transition, as it was called. The aim was to address your, you know, mental health issues.

Call them what you will. The aim was to transition and then pass unnoticed in society, you know, and be taken. at first glance as a member of the opposite sex. So when you heard people referring to you by pronouns, when people would say she, you thought, oh, I'm doing something right here. This, you know, something's going right here. The other one used to be being directed to the toilets,

which is another thorny, it would become a fauny issue. So if you'd said, you know what, do know where the toilets are? And if you were directed to the women's, you think, oh, you know. And you do, you would, you would ask something you just didn't know. And that would be the way of testing these, you know, testing, you know, the way you're projecting yourself to society. We seem to have turned that completely on its head. Where now, rather than me doing something and then having society respond,

it's telling society what to do. You know, you shall use these pronouns or you'll be, you know, whatever, you know, a horrible person because you were hate trans. people and you think, well, no, it's the wrong way around. You know, we should be, we should be taking our part in society rather than demanding things of society like this. And Debbie, why do you think it is that, look, this is an issue which affects a tiny portion of society. It's a tiny portion of society. And that doesn't mean they don't deserve support and all the rest of it. But why is it that it's become so politicised and become such a mainstream issue?

It's bananas, isn't it? It really, it really. It really, it's, it's, it really. It's, it's, it's really is. When I, when I transitioned, the aim was to basically stay out the press and, and keep your job, which is a bit ridiculous now because I'm, you know, but, you know, it has become, it ceased to become a clinical issue. It used to be a clinical issue. We had a, we had a mental health issue and this was a treatment for it. And that was that. Well, it's become, it's become a civil rights issue almost, where it's, you know, it's become a big debating, you know, debating issue in society.

I do, I do, I do worry that it's being driven by, by, you know, other vested interests. I do worry that this is a way of doing two things, which is, which is compromising women's boundaries and women's rights. women erect barriers in the way of men for very good reason there's just you know there are just too many cases where men have been where men have abused women it just keeps happening so women have to put those barriers up

and men don't necessarily like it because they're not necessarily in control of the situation and the other one is the safeguarding of children and, you know, the, you know, trans people such as me, I think, I be, you know, I don't know, I worry that we're being used in a political campaign to, you know, to compromise those barriers that women have put up. Used by whom? Men, basically. Well, I'm not doing it.

No. Which men do you mean? Like, who is it that's doing it? Well, it's. It's a good question. It's been, it's been, it's, it's an affront to women's boundaries in that women in traditionally have been able to put up boundaries to men and say, look, these spaces are ours. This is, this, these are, these are our, these are our spaces.

If we let you in, it's on our terms. They did, they did and have done let transsexual people through those. We've had other right, we've had other rights for women. all women shortlists in politics, all places on committees as all. Whereas we're in a position now where a man can self-declare as a trans woman, and we've had a big debate over self-ID, but in a lot of places in society, you say, you know, a man declares themselves to be a trans woman,

and a trans woman they are. And suddenly expect a free pass into those spaces. They expect to be put onto an all-women shortlist, you know, into politics. they expect all those rights. And suddenly women are there looking at, thinking, well, what's the point of having a door we can lock on men if anyone can cut their own key? That's what it feels like to me.

It's an affront on that power imbalance which women have had to defend themselves against a power imbalance, and this thing goes against those defenses which they've set up. Now, I get that. I just don't understand who's using people. trans people for that purpose, you talk about that in a slightly sort of, I mean, not conspiratorial

way, but you know what I mean. And I'm just trying to understand because is it really the case that lots of people are pretending to be trans women in order to get on a short list or to get into a bathroom or whatever? Is that common? Does that happen a lot?

It's what you said about pretending to be a trans woman. How do we know the difference between somebody who's pretending to be a trans woman? What is a trans woman? You tell me. Well, yeah, this is the question which sometimes gets asked, you know, what is a trans woman? And, you know, do we have, do we have some sort of, some sort of inner being somewhere in here, something called a gender identity, which makes me a transom, I've got a different gender identity to you. Well, there's no evidence for any of that.

You know, there's, whenever you, you know, whenever you look at people, there's no evidence that there's anything different in my brain to your brains. this whole concept of gender identity, which have been sold, is, well, it doesn't need to exist. And in my view, if it doesn't need to exist, why has it been invented? And it's been invented to create this concept of this trans person. You were trans because you have this almost like a soul-like, you know, concept inside. You've got a female soul or something. That's what we get told. But if you take that away, you then say, you know, what is, you know, what is a trans woman?

And one very, you talked, you know, you mentioned about being an opinionated trans woman. You know, one thing, you know, one suggestion which I would never be allowed to say on Twitter, carefully if you tweet this, is that trans women are men with a certain type of psychological disorder, which creates an insatiable need to present in the same way as a woman. But it doesn't mean that we're a woman. And why can't we say that? Because it denies people's identity. And is it just as simple as that?

Just the fact that, but, you know, if somebody says there's something and surely other people have the right to critique it or deny it, even if they think that that is true. Yeah. And the other thing is when people say, well, we've got a question on the census. You know, do you have a gender identity, which is different to your, you know, to your biological sex as what, as a sign of birth? Or whatever, whatever language the government have decided to put on there. But this has reached the census.

Do you have a gender identity? And to say, well, this, I don't think this actually exists. It's a big thing, is that. But who came up with the idea? You know, one question I sometimes ask of people who said this is, who told you that and why did you believe them? because it's gone around saying that everybody's got a gender identity and you say, well, who told you? But it's because everybody seems to think it that it must be true. Yeah.

But as a scientist, I always like to look for evidence in this. So that's a really interesting thing. So your view and correct me again as I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand this as I go because it's new to me. Yeah. I've not heard many people say what you've just said who are themselves. have had that. You know, you get trolls on the internet going, you know, trans women are men, men they should get back in whatever, in a sort of aggressive, angry way. But I've never, what you're saying is being trans is a psychological disorder? Is that? Yeah, I think the problem is,

it's the loading on the word disorder. Yeah. This thing is bad, whatever. Whereas, you know, what's wrong with? having a disorder. Well, it's an abnormality maybe. Yeah. Well, this is another word. These words are seen as pejorities, but as a physics teacher, one of my jokes is we can all be normal as long as we stand up straight.

So the view we have is that normal is 90 degrees to the surface. And to be disordered just means not ordered. And in its true sense, that means all standing in line. One, two, three, four, five. Well, I prefer to stand off to one side and be myself. So this idea to say that trans women are men with a psychological disorder is political dynamite.

Yes. But shouldn't it be a claim that we're allowed to argue in debate? Oh, 100%. Completely. Do you sometimes think with this debate that in an effort to be compassionate, we're sacrificing truth, reason and logic? Yes. It's truth. Truth is truth. And we're hiding the truth. We're obfuscating the truth. We're avoiding the truth. We'll put the truth to one side in order to be kind to people. But is it kind, essentially, to be telling lies to people?

Well, this is where I come back to this idea of identity being partly a social construct. I do think that your eyes. asking a lot of people to expect that they only care about how they perceive themselves. Even for people who don't have that, let's call it, disorder just for use of, for ease of language, even for people who don't have that, you know, very few people of that independently minded that they simply don't care how anyone perceives them. You know, we all put on clothes and makeup and, you know, jewelry and whatever to make a certain impression on others. It's just part of how we evolved, right?

we are social beings. So I have to say, I do get the argument that by, you know, not using the pronouns or denying someone's way of thinking about themselves, that has an impact, don't you think? Yeah, I think it's, I think it comes down to the fact that our identity is, it is intermeshed with our relationship with society. Yeah, exactly. And when I was, when I was, when I was coming here today, you know, everybody I met was, was, uh, was, uh, I was referred to as female pronouns. I don't think for a moment my identity was being denied at all. But I don't have a badge that says you must use female pronouns.

But the way I interact with society means people tend to use female pronouns because they're more comfortable referring to me by female pronouns. And it's whether it's, yes, we have personal identity. I know who I am. But we're also social beings. living in society, and it's interlinks with how you see me. But what the problem I think we're having is, it's other people. And let me careful who are talking about here, because I don't want to put the finger at individuals, but it's the philosophy that I am going to, you know,

I'm going to demand that society treats me in one way by my words, but my actions, how I live my life is a different way and that's the that's the clash and I'm going to expect society to to cope with that whereas I don't I don't do it I live my life one way and and it people tend to take me as I want to be taken so I guess what you're saying is you've made your best effort to present as a woman and people can take it or leave it essentially but most people will take it because you've made therefore. Whereas if you came in here with a beard and a whatever and looked just like a man, you have less reason to expect people to treat you as a woman. Yeah. And to use one example. If I'm walking home late at night and it's dark and I'm by

myself and I've got my big coat on, then I'll tie my hair back. I'll put my coat on. I'll put my hood up. Make sure I'm wearing jeans. And I put my shoulders out and I'll get taken for a man. It's much safer. And in that case, then I wouldn't expect people to use female. You know, if it was being referred to then, I wouldn't expect people to use female pronouns in that situation. You've got the best of birth worlds.

Well, yeah. I've sometimes said to people that we may put male privilege to one side, but we can take it back whenever we want it. And that is one example of that. So I can, you know, the male privilege, which I may try to put to one side, come straight back. And I can walk down the street at night. And because people, yeah, people imagine the see, well, you know, people see a man.

So I don't suffer the same issues that a woman would do walking alone at night. And that leads us rather nicely into the issue of non-binary. That is something that I still struggle to get my head around. I'm going to be honest with you, I still don't really get it. explain what non-binary actually is and your opinions on it? Well, aren't we all non-binary? Are you binary? Am I binary? I'll be honest to you. I never expected that question.

People do keep comparing him to Sue Perkins. Yeah. But it's a good, what does binary mean? I guess it means that somebody identifies completely with the, you know, with the stereotypes and characteristics which are expected of men, women in society. But when you start unpacking that in yourself, we're all a curious mixture of masculinity and femininity. You know, we're all, you know, qualities which are considered to be masculine, qualities which are considered to be feminine, you know, we're all, we're all a mixture

of those. So in terms of... But we are a mixture of those, but I am binary. Like, I've never questioned my quote-unquote gender identity. I've never felt like, well, maybe I'm not a man. Like, it's just never occurred to me. So I'm binary, let's say. Francis, questionable. Hate speech. But it's what this means. It means you're talking about your personality,

it's how you feel comfortable with yourself, with your body, with those things. But this is separate from our sex. You know, we're human beings, we're mammals. And like any other species of mammals, there are two types of every species as male and as female. And if people don't believe me, I used to say, well, go and speak to your biological parents. I bet you've got one of each.

Because that is sex. Sex is binary. Then we talk about personality, gender, how we feel about ourselves, our identity. And that's different. And what's happened and where we've confused ourselves is we put all this together in one. So we're talking about, we're talking about men. We talk about women, and then we talk about this non-binary in the middle, as if to say somebody who is not a man and not a woman. But what I would come back there to say is there are people of both sexes who identify as non-binary.

But what interests me is, is the way that, and again, this also what I'm going to say is, is possible political dynamite, is what female non-binary people and male non-binary people, you know, their experience in life is different. Because as human beings, you see somebody who isn't stereotypically presenting as man or woman, and you think, but as human beings, we look at the people and we think, oh, yeah, this is a male person who is presenting in an androgynous manner. This is a female person who's behaving in an androgynous manner. But as human beings, we view, you know, we do take note of the sexes and we do relate to each sex differently.

We all do. We've got millions of years of evolution which has led us here. You know, we are our bodies in that way. So when you start talking about non-binary is if you separate the two, if you put sex to one side and say, you know, we're all male or female, that's a biological fact. So 1, 2, 3, we're all male people. That, I would say, you know, is should be uncontroversial. Then we look at personality separately. Call it gender, call it identity, whatever you like.

And then we've got, you know, people who are quite happy with all the issues, quite happy with the stereotypes which are put on them, quite happy about going down the street saying, I'm a man, doesn't bother them. And there's others who struggle with that. some of us transition so that we're there, you know, presenting us the opposite sex, and others sort of, you know, will prefer to be presenting as neither. But when you actually say that, when you take that personality spectrum, when you talk about non-binary, the moment you create non-binary people in this spectrum,

well, the two ends are just, is it fair to say that is a binary, or are there just two ends of a non-binary spectrum? So I think your question makes more sense if you separate the two and then say you can make a personality what you like. That's fine, we can talk about that. But when it comes to sex, you know, that is, I'm a science teacher, there are two sexes and we can't change it.

So if we keep non-binary out of that, then it all makes more sense. But that, again, is the political issue. People like to identify out of their sex. but we can no more identify out of our height or our age. These are just facts of our bodies. My body is male, it's 182 tall, and it came into existence 52 years ago. I might not want that to be the case, but those are facts of life.

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Right now, Babel is offering our fans six-month free on a six-month subscription with Babel using our special code, which is, of course, trigger. That's Babel.B-A-B-B-B-B-E-L dot-cote.uk-U-K-slash play. And use the promo code, Trigger. that spelling. He learned English on Babel. I did. But seriously, go to babel.com.com. UK forward slash play, use our code trigger and enjoy Babel. Debbie, do you think this hyper focus on gender is helpful as to what we're doing now, how we seem to be pulling everything apart and there seems to be genders being created almost every day, the fact that we talk about

non-binary? Is that actually helping us as a society? No, no, it isn't. I think people should just be to be themselves. And we shouldn't need, we shouldn't need to invent a category to identify into, to allow ourselves to the people we want to be. So, you know, if somebody wants to, you know, if somebody's personality type is to wear, you know, is to wear their hair in an unusual fashion, colour it, blue, whatever, then just, just do it. You know, don't feel you've got to identify as a certain category in order to be, be yourself. And you're right, there are so many of these different categories. And you're thinking, why do people need these?

You know, when we talk about the LGBT, WX, Y, Z, Q, you know, all these different categories that people create for themselves, create for society. You know, one which I've come across, which I'm, you know, I'm struggling to get my head around, but I keep getting myself into trouble, is people who identify as as as as sexual. Well, you know, and I've said, well, what's the big deal? deal. You just don't, you know, if you don't need a romantic sexual partner, well, it's,

it's an issue you don't need to worry about. Just, you know, what's the issue here? Why do you need a label to say, you know, I just don't, you know, I prefer being by myself. I don't need, you know, I'm not sexual. I'm asexual. But I got myself into an awful lot of hot water for denying people's identity. But I don't see, if that's the person they want to be, I don't see, need to see that why they need to create a category that they then need to restrict them into this completely artificial in my view of category which they've created. I do you think people should be themselves? It's a good point that you said that people should be themselves. But isn't it also a way of garnering attention for yourself, creating an identity, therefore that people notice you,

therefore that you can explain yourself succinctly to the world in a way that you could before. It's far more difficult to explain who I am if we go into the complexities. But if you just say, you know, cis, straight, white, male, boom, it's done. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, our people, are people choosing these identity levels to be special? Yeah. Because there are different flags. For all the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, trans flag, which everybody, everybody knows that one. There's the, there's the, there is an asexual flag. There's a bisexual flag. We've got them all at the back there. And there's a heterosexual flag.

There is a heterosexual flag. Have a guess what colour it is? I don't know. Is it like all the primary colours? No, no, no. No, no, no. Black. Sheds of grey.

Is it shades of grey? So they pick the dullest colour. They pick the absolutely dullest colour to actually say, this is the heterosexual flag. And what you're saying to people is, why be as boring as this when you can have all? all these colours and all these separate identities. That's interesting.

And do you think this politicisation that we're seeing with the LGBTIQI+, but particularly focusing on trans people? Is this helpful? Is this helping you in any way? No, it doesn't help me at all. I transitioned and got on with life. The one most important piece of legislation for me was the Equality Act, which gave us our own protected characteristic of gender reassignment. And what that means is, is that I can't be treated less favourably or, you know, because I've gone through a gender reassignment.

So I can't be sacked from my job. People used to be dismissed from their jobs. And employers would say, oh, we support what you're doing, but you'll be too much trouble. So, you know, here, go. But so I can't be denied goods and services and shops. I can't be, you know, so that, that protects me. Now, to be honest, this is a great country. You know, the vast majority of people are open-minded, liberal, accepting.

There are people around, as we all know, who are not. But on the whole, it's a very accepting country and has been. But what the Equality Act did was it gave people the confidence in which to do that, to say, I'm doing the right thing, and the law says I can do the right thing. And I transitioned and got on with the job. My aim of going to school each day was to teach children not to be a trans person there. And that was working. Then it was around 2014-2015, big campaigning organisation started jumping on this

to use this as almost like a civil rights movement, which in my view was never necessary. We were getting along just fine, we're trans people. Because we keep being told, and this is an important part of the conversation that we haven't had yet, but you bring it up. We keep being told that if, you know, if trans kids, if such a thing exists, if children with gender dysphoria, if they're not given the right emotional support, if they're not, you know, given help with their transition, if they're not, the pronouns aren't used. If their parents don't immediately start going, well, you say you're a girl, then you're a girl, whatever it is. If that doesn't happen, then, you know, suicides are very high

we're told that the reason we need to be very aware of this and raise awareness is that trans people experience a lot of hate and abuse and violence and that worries me. I don't want to be contributing to people being hurt, you know, and if that, you know, and I think the argument goes, well, you know, if I just use the right pronouns and if I just, you know, don't worry too much about the nuances of it, if I just accept why I'm being told, well, at least I'm not hurting people. That's how a lot of people think. And frankly, probably until we started the show, that's how I thought.

I was like, well, I just do what's asked of me because I don't want to hurt people who are already vulnerable. You know, is that not all true? You've asked a lot of questions, though. I have. A lot of questions. I want to come back to what you've said about children. That is a huge issue. But coming back to this, how trans people live in society, it's not my experience at all that there's a lot of people out to get me.

I live, you know, my life is as normal as anybody else is and there aren't people hiding around the corner abusing me. It doesn't happen. This week in Parliament, Jess Phillips read out Karen Ingala Smith's list of the more than 100 women who have been murdered by male people, including partners, this year. When we talk about trans people, the impression is that the world is much more dangerous for trans people. But there wasn't a list to read out from the UK. this year or last year. We have an international transgender day of remembrance every year,

where we're remembering people in largely in completely different societies to ours, where life is very difficult for anybody who is different for women, for trans people, for gay and lesbian people, the very, very different societies to ours. But enough about my country of Russia. The claim that this is somehow a dangerous society for trans people is, well, I'd say from first-hand experience, it's ludicrous and it's a political claim that's being made. But then going on to what you were saying about the children, if we don't affirm children's identities. Well, you know, we need to ask the question. We go back, you know, why was this not picked up 40 years ago, 30 years ago, whenever, when there wasn't a lot?

a spate of children committing suicide because their identities were not recognised. It wasn't happening. Now, my own situation was from three years old, I knew I had, I knew I had some psychological issues. I desperately wanted to be a girl. I knew, I knew these, these wishes were so shameful I couldn't, I couldn't tell anybody. So it was all, it was all buried down. But I would have, you know, I would have benefited from that being unpacked and helped to say, look, you know, you've got, you know, you've got these feelings. They're not your fault. You've got these feelings. You can't be a girl because you're a boy, but let's have a look and see how we can make you, you know, help you become comfortable with yourself. What's happening now and what I've, what, you know, what's happening now is that

children are being told, well, you can be, you, you really do the sex. You can be the other sex. And if that had been said to me in 1971, 1972, 1973, I would have been clamouring to transition and be the other sex. And where would that have left me? You know, you have prepudescent children at primary school. Well, you know, before puberty, children can either cut their hair

or grow the hair long, what you wear. It's relatively easy to pass. the other sex. But then puberty comes along and that is the, that's the key to adult life. And before, before children actually understand what it means to be an adult now, we're saying to them, you know, you can choose whether to go through that puberty and that puberty. And they're of equal, they're of equal value. You know, it doesn't matter. This is values. You can be, you can grow up to be an adult man or you can be an adult woman. You choose. And if I'd been given that choice in 1975, you know, 1980, I'd have chosen to be a woman or chosen to be a girl,

because that's what I wanted to do. Would you not rather that had happened? No. Why not? Because I wouldn't have had my children. And as human beings, we, you know, there's various things that drive us. We are biological and, you know, within, within humanity, if there wasn't that driver to have our own children, our species would sort of die out very quickly, I think. So that's there, and that's very strong in me. And as I became an adult, I really wanted my own kids. And I've had my own kids. And if I transitioned as a child, that would never have happened.

And that, to me, those things are far more important than that. And then we're saying, I really wouldn't have been a woman and never have been a woman. I would have been a boy who had transitioned before puberty and then being given synthetic hormones so my body would have developed how it had done. Maybe, you know, the difference now in life would have been that rather than being, you know,

my voice would be higher, well, so what? And I wouldn't be quite as tall as I am, but I like being one metre 82, I can see all the top of the crowds. So there are advantage to that. I wouldn't, you know, if transgender therapies could chop 10 centimetres off your height, I wouldn't go there because I like being tall. So I just think for me, if this had been presented to me,

I would have taken it and it would have been the wrong thing. And this is from somebody who has transitioned. Whereas other people, other friends of mine say that when I was a child, I felt like this, but I grew out of those feelings. And those are more often than not women. And the number of women I've spoken to who, as the approach puberty felt, really negative about this because they realized what it was going to do with that body. They realized that they weren't, you know, that roots in life were being shut off.

So they were desperate to be the other sex. But then those feelings went away. And what really concerns me out, what we're seeing with children, is that this generation now that are being told they can be the other sex, the vast, vast majority of them now are girls. You know, it's around, you know, two-thirds of the referrals to gender clinics are now girls. And there is no, there's no big army of middle-aged women coming out saying, oh, now that society's changed, I can transition.

There's middle-aged women saying, yeah, when I was that age, I felt like that too. But I grew out of it. And I really do worry about what we're doing to these children. Just tell them that they can be the opposite sex when they can't, making those promises to them. And then when puberty comes along saying, you know, there's this medication and surgical treatments which can make you into some sort of facsimile

where they don't say that. They say it can make you the opposite sex. And it's just not true. And the impact on those children in the future I really do worry about. We talked about women's rights before. you know this this trans has become has become the hot topic of debate it will pass on to something else

I'm sure something else will come around and if women's rights have been compromised and they can be reclaimed but if children's bodies have been damaged they're damaged for life and they only have one body and that is something as adults we need to take responsibility for that

and there are too many people who are saying oh well you know if that's what's if that's what's going on Now, there's no criticism here, but there is a widespread attitude that I don't know about this. This, you know, cleverer people than me come and do this. If it's not harming anybody, but children's bodies are being harmed. And I think as adults, we all have a responsibility to look, think critically at what's going on, look at both sides of the argument.

And when people make claims, always ask that question, you know, where is the evidence that they're citing for this claim? because I think all too often we're hearing too, you know, the evidence which is cited is, is that everybody thinks this, which is an appeal to popularity, or, you know, people in authority think this, which is an appeal to authority, whereas those, you know, anybody who thinks, who thinks about issues knows that those are very poor, those are poor support to arguments. So, kids were me. Yeah.

And do you not the thing that shows that there's something quite wrong. wrong with society where we're effectively, well, we're transitioning these kids, and that's seen as the right thing to do when we all know that children are simply not capable psychologically of making these huge life choices. Yeah, and very, very young children as well. Three, four-year-old children, parents are taken to, the gender clinics are getting referrals from children who are aged three, four, five. It's, you know, and then you've got to ask the question, why are parents doing this? parents seeing in their children to actually do this? Are they seeing gender non-conforming behaviour? This is the question, this is where parents need to be challenged. Why do you think

your child is trans? Well, my son or whatever language they use prefers to wear dresses. Well, why can't boys wear dresses? And do you, the question of the parents is, do you have a problem with your son wearing dresses? Because my worry is that parents have issues about children exhibiting gender non-conforming behaviour. And this is a way of helping the parents address their issues better to have a, you know, better to have a gender-conforming daughter than a gender non-conforming son perhaps. Now, that is a possibility of what's going on.

And if that is what's going on, then this four-year-old father, year old child who has been told by all the adults around them that they are really a girl is, should be concerning everybody. Yeah. And it seems that we don't, we've stopped understanding what it means to be a child, a teenager, which is a continual process of questioning your identity. You know, we all had, when we were going through puberty, the reason it's so painful is because you, you don't know anything. Everything has changed. You don't know who you are. You don't know what you're going to be, you don't know what your sexuality is, all these things, they're all up in the air. So to then come along and say to these kids, well, you know, your trans just seems to,

it just seems to me abuse, if I'm being honest. You'd agree with you? Yeah, it is. And rather than saying to children, you know, you've got lots of questions, what we're saying is, here is the answer, you're trans, and all the issues which children do struggle with. And as you grew up, you know, the transition, we, you know, we talk about transition, and it's become a low-de-turn. A transition is something a trans person does. But we all transition as we move through life. We're different people now, as to we were 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And this is all the transition through life.

And there's lots of questions that we have, lots of issues that we grapple with. And we're desperate for answers to those issues. Now, if the answers were simple, we wouldn't be, you know, Life is complicated. Human beings are complicated. You know, one of the things, I teach physics. I someone say physics, physics is easy. Well, it's human beings are difficult because human beings are complex. So we've got all these issues which we're grappling with.

And then to come to children, yeah, we know you, we know you've got anxiety issues. We know you've got issues with, you know, working out your sexuality and what that means to you. We know you've got issues with gender. But as people growing up, it's things that we have to work through those to ourselves so we understand ourselves. And we become comfortable ourselves. But what we're telling children is, ah, this is because you're trans. And here is a prepack solution to your problems. You know, in a pink and blue box, this is who you are.

And suddenly you've got a ready-made answer. It's a prepack answers. A ready-made community to move into. because the other thing about growing up, it's friendship groups and being excluded from friendship groups and bullying and, you know, as adults were forever, you know, were forever, D, you're having to help children through those issues. So a child who doesn't quite fit in because all children don't quite fit in,

none of us quite fit in anywhere because we're different to everybody else, to say, look, here is the prepack solution, including ready-made community, ready-made role models, ready-made this, ready-made that, ready-made the other. It's denying them the opportunity to find themselves, Francis. That is abuse. It is. And the last question I want to ask on this, Debbie, is to me,

this isn't just a problem we see with children or with the trans issue. It's right the way through society, where what we desperately want is very simple, easy solutions to deeply complex problems. Would you agree with that? Well, yes. That's the, we've talked about binaries before. We do like, we do like to, you know, we do like to reduce everything to a binary, you know, Brexit or remain. Yeah.

You know, lockdown or, you know, or whatever. Or letting it rip. Yeah, letting it rip. You know, the idea of nuance to think there are, there are issues here we've got to grapple with. And let's hear all the arguments and come up with solutions which give the majority. of people, the majority of what they want, which is what political debate is all about, gets lost in this. Debbie, it strikes me that you have an insight into something that we've not talked much about

on the show, but it's interesting to me because you've lived both as a man and as a trans woman or transsexual woman, but you've lived in society where people thought you were a man and then now where people think you're a woman. And I wince a little bit, you mentioned male privilege. And that's not because I don't think people are privileged in different ways. I just wince because that word is so misused now often, the word privilege. So tell us what is different when you live as a man and when you live as a woman? What have you noticed?

What it hasn't been like? What insight have you got? Because none of us have that experience. Right. Yeah, it is interesting. In committee meetings, for example, as a man, I'd expect certain bits of body. If I wanted to make a point in a committee meeting, you sit forwards like this, you look around,

you make eye contact with the chair, and you get brought in. If I'm, and other people naturally will bring you into the debate in the meeting. If I'm in a committee where I've not been clocked, you know, so I don't, I don't, you know, if it's a group of people that's come together, and sometimes in my work, I do, I will turn upon a committee with to do something,

thing and I've just been sent, I've been sent along representing another group, for example. I'll just announce myself as, oh, I'm Debbie Hayton, I'm a teacher, and I'm here representing so-and-so. You know, that's, and I'm not, I've not been clocked. Then I'll be treated as a woman, and you can make the same eye contact with the chair, you can make the same body language, and you get ignored. It doesn't, it doesn't do the same thing. Does it matter if they're a man or a woman, the committee chair? No.

So women will ignore you because you're a woman. Women will give word to men, yeah. And they won't give word to other women. So you don't get your voice in early enough. Now, you might say, why does that matter, Debbie? You'll get your voice in eventually because you'll put your hand up and eventually you'll come to you. But you might be the fourth person to speak in the debate once other people have made the minds up.

So I noticed that. But, and here's the interesting thing, is if I'm clocked as a trans woman, I get treated as a man in that debate. Now, and actually, actually, it's almost like super male privilege because nobody wants to upset me. You never upset the trans, do you know? Well, that's what I was going to say. I'm not sure that's about maleness. I think that's more, I'm just assuming, but hear me out, is that people are now so worried about offending anyone who's in any way a minority that they'll fucking let you speak forever.

Yeah, they do. And you go on the committee meeting there and say, I'm Debbie Hitt and I'm a trans, I'm a trans woman. And I've had such a difficult, such a difficult. time through life. I've been persecuted and oppressed every opportunity. And I have struggled to get here. Four people abused me on the train this morning. I was, a person at the Chief Station gave me a funny look. And I've got here and I feel so distressed. But I know I'm within friends here. And, oh, you can talk forever. So that's like, that's like super privilege. But even, you know, so I've known what it's been like to be a man. And I know what it likes to be treated as a woman.

And yeah, and when you come out as trans, you just, it's... So this, it's when I hear this about trans people being, you know, the most depressed. I'm thinking, for crying out loud, you know. And the other thing is... Do you think maybe that's just people talking about, like, their childhood, like growing up in the 70s? You know, it was a different society. Yeah. I think if you'd come out in a meeting then and said, I'm actually trans and I've been, you know, someone looked at me funny.

I don't think you would get that reaction. No, they wouldn't have done. But it's what the question you asked was, is there a difference between, is male privilege? And I would say male privilege exists in those meetings where political decisions are made. Yes, everybody will have the way. But consistently, male voices will get heard first and before female voices. And it's incremental, just a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit there somewhere else. And it means that society tends to get run for the benefit of men rather than the benefit of women.

What about other stuff, Francis? Let me just follow up on this. You know, you talk about making yourself look like a man when you're walking home at night or whatever because it's safer. Actually, I mean, you're more likely to be a victim of violence if you're a man. That's a statistic, not sexual violence. So that's a thing. But what else do you notice about being a woman and how people treat you differently versus when you appeared as a man? There isn't much. When, because in situations where we're well known with family, you tend to get treated as who you are.

Yeah. You know, and for my close family to suddenly start treating me differently because I have now said I prefer to be called something else and it didn't happen. And at work, I tend to get treated as me. Out in the street when people treat you differently, it's hard to say, you know, it's what is, what is, what, what, what is, what, what, what, what, what, what. What's the big thing about how I want to be treated differently as a man or a woman? And as I've tried to unpack this within myself, it's not about you. And it's not about the rest of society. It's purely large and squarely about me and how I relate to myself and my body.

That's the key to it. And society, for me, is a bit of a bystander. And as long as you'll allow me to live my life without persecuting me, oppressing me, and you do. then I don't have a problem in, you know, in living here. It's a great place. It's the UK for trans people to live. It really is. And, you know, it really does upset me when people say, you know, it's really dreadful.

Everybody's out to get us because they're not. And if we whip ourselves up into some sort of frenzy about that, then we'll not be living. We'll be just living in fear of nasty things happening to us. And it's probably not going to happen. And we look at the fact that we have these groups now, and it just seems that we're more polarized, more divided than ever. How do we get some form of healing?

How do we actually come together and try and bridge the gap between all of us in order that we can actually have a better and more harmonious society? I think we need to take identity out of political debate. We need to be looking at people's rights to do things, rather than people's rights to be things. So that whenever we start basing laws and policies around identity, when people being things, then we have big, huge problems. And identity politics is, it just leads to so many issues.

And whenever politics gets divided on identity, it becomes, you know, we're with problems that become unsurmountable. Like, you know, like in the North of Ireland, for example, where politics is divided on identity. identity. It's just a constant issue to try and move, you know, move issues forward. Whereas what we should be doing here, we should be, we should be moving the debate along people's rights to be. People should have a right to, you know, be whoever they like. You know, we are, for good, let's say it for good and say, we are individuals, but move the debate for the rights to do things.

So our rights to, you know, wear a skirt, for example. Now, wouldn't it be better if we pushed for push for the law, not to say, because I identify as trans, I have a right to dress like this without being abused. How about just saying everybody in society has a right to dress like this because they're human beings? So we take it away from the identity and say, you have a right to do this, you have a right to do this, you have a right to do this.

And that I think would be a way forward. You're talking about really letting people do what they want as long as they're not hurting other people. Well, yeah, it's the law. The law should be permitting certain actions and prohibiting other actions. And it's out of political debate. We know where to put the barriers down. So the law protects our rights to do things and stops us doing other things.

But in this issue, it's become mixed with identity. So we're then saying, well, we then start talking about your right to be trans, you know, or prohibiting you from being trans. And this is where people actually say, we say, you're denying my identity. Whereas what we should really be doing is saying, let's have a look at the issues here. Let's have a look. Make these rights universal. You know, trans rights are human rights. Yes, they are.

Let's have a look. We'll give everybody the right to, you know, to pick up from either dress code. You know, organizations traditionally have. had one dress code for men, one dress code for women. Why? Let's just let everybody, you know, select from either dress code. Then there's other issues such as it used to, it just sounds bananas. It used to be an issue changing, you know, your title from Mr to Mrs. Were you allowed to do this? Well, you know, my title was doctor, so I never had that. But, you know, why should that be an issue? So when there's rights like that, we should be saying,

let's cement those rights in. Everybody has a right to do that. But then there are rights which do affect other groups. And that's when we're coming down to the debate has been there about women's boundaries. And essentially, what's been happening here is that male people have been demanding the right to access rights which have been granted to the other sex. For reasons, known only to ourselves. So when I say, I now identify as a trans woman, therefore I need to come into those women's spaces, you've got to let me into those spaces.

I don't need to say why I identify as a trans woman because that's, then I'm going to justify my existence or whatever. No, somebody answers that. But without giving reasons, then identity politics would say, because I identify as this, therefore I must have those rights, which I think that is, that leads to all sorts of problems. And I think we should be looking at, in each case, the right to do things. So you mentioned toilets before, which has become an incredibly politicised issue because it's, it's there as a casing point. You know, we need to solve that. So on that one,

well, I was going to ask you on that one, because there's probably an even better question to ask you there. I was going to wrap up, but I think this is important. you talk about male-bodied people and want all of that stuff. I guess the question, if you boil it right down, is if you commit a crime and you are supposed to go to prison, that's where this idea, well, people call me he or she doesn't really matter. That's when, you know, that stops being the case. You have to make a binary decision, at least at the moment.

You either go to a male prison or a female prison. Now, I don't know about the problem. prison system, but I don't imagine the prison system is kind to people like you if you would send to a male prison, right? But equally, we've had cases where male-bodied people have gone to a female prison and have committed unspeakable acts that should never have happened. So how do you square that circle? Well, the prison estate is divided by sex and I'm male, I would go to a male prison. We need, though, to be looking at my rights to be protected from that. And this is, this is where my campaigning would come in.

This is a tough ask. This is where you're going to be wanting, you know, separate facilities. I'm not going to want to share and sell with somebody else. Showering and changing facilities, I pass reasonably well. You know, if people don't notice. But in the showers, I pass much better in the showers than I do anywhere else. But that's a tough ask of society. That's to say to society, look, I've done this,

and I am expecting you as society to pay a bit extra here and to put special facilities on here and separate accommodation perhaps, all these things. I'm not saying, and I think this is wrong, is saying to society we should ask women to budge up and make room in the female estate, because that's what would be, that in my view, is the... You know, putting people in danger.

I mean, it's horrific what's happened. Yeah, so women, and the profile of female offenders in prison is totally different to the profile of male offenders. If you look at how many a sex, what women end up in prison for is very different to what men, you know, men end up in prison for violent crime. And, you know, women often end up as more often, you know, it's been the accomplices of crime.

And you look at the profiles of women in prison, and a lot of things, is you think you're a big of, you know, you are a victim here and a victim of circumstance. When you look at sex offenders, around, you know, around an eighth of male prisoners are sex offenders. And there's close on 100,000 men in the male estates. That's 12,500 sex offenders. The female estate is much small. It's about 4,000.

It's not like there's two half a state. So it's like this and like this. And then suddenly you're saying, well, we're then going to put this group of male. in with the females. And then when you look at the profile of the male, of the transgender offenders, it's not an eighth. It's close on a half, a sex offenders.

And there, you've got a big problem. And just to gloss it over and say, you know, well, this is just how it will be. And saying that hopefully there aren't too many problems in women's prisons. Oh, we'll deal with bad cases. We'll deal with problems and they go, hopefully there's not going to be too many.

I think it's totally uninterceptive. What society's been saying to women is, you've got to budge up and make room, and I've got total sympathy of women who say, enough, you know, we're not doing this. And they're quite right. I agree. I mean, that is an issue where it's like,

this is so obviously wrong. So I guess what you're saying is you need to make special arrangements for male-bodied people who present as women to be treated differently. And it caught. This is the thing you see. And it costs more. So the government may be happier

to take the cheap skate solution, which is just a move us in. Yeah, but you can't have women being raped by these people because we don't want to pay extra money. You just, I mean, it's a no-brainer to me that one. Debbie, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show and you've cleared some of these things up for us. I'm sure we'll have to continue to try and wrap our heads around it as a society.

But thank you so much for coming on. And as always, we have one more question for you. Which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be? The power of the tech giants in San Francisco go in Seattle to control what we think and control what we're allowed to say. Well put, we've been talking about it quite a bit. Good point. Thank you very much.

And Debbie, if people want to find you on social media, wherever else, where's the best place to do that? Twitter's probably the best place. If you search my name, it comes up. We'll make sure we'll put it in the description. Thank you so much for coming on. And thank you for watching. We will see you very soon with another episode like this one or a live stream.

All of them go out at 7pm UK time. Take care and see you soon, guys.