TRIGGERnometry - Transwomen in Women's Sport: Inclusive or Unfair? With Judy Glenney

Episode Date: August 15, 2021

Judy Glenney is the author of Mom, I'm a Girl and is an American National Weightlifting Champion, former IWF referee and coach. She is widely considered a pioneer in women's weightlifting. Get TICKETS to TRIGGERnometry Live with Andrew Doyle here: https://leicestersquaretheatre.ticketsolve.com/shows/873619472 Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/​​​  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod​​​ Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I felt rather betrayed. I felt anxious for the next generation of women weightlifters. Because what are they going to face if we keep going down the trail that we are? Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishen. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. It doesn't get any more fascinating than the guest we have for you today.

She is a pioneer of women's weightlifting, a former national champion in America referee, and also an author and writer as well. Judy Glennie, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you. It's so great that you could join us today. It's obviously a time in which women's weightlifting and some of the other issues that you've written about in the past is very much in the public eye. Before we get into all of that, please tell us and our audience a bit more about your back.

background. Who are you? What is your journey through life? How do you find yourself sitting here talking to us all the way across the pond? My background is primarily in sports. I participated in sports all through my growing up years, but then I met this wonderful man who later became my husband, who was a weightlifter. And I became absolutely fascinated with the sport of whitelifting, the type that you see in the Olympics where you put the weight over your head. Well, there was no weightlifting for women at that time when I started training and started working with him. But we decided that I enjoyed it so much. Why not start the sport for women? So that's that began my journey in weightlifting. At that time, like I mentioned, there was no official entry for women. So I competed against the men.

Well, I shouldn't say I competed against them. I competed alongside of them. I wasn't allowed to compete. within the competition. So I was competing outside the competition just because I enjoyed the sport and I wanted to do the best that I could. So as the years came by, I wanted to really involve other women because I knew I wasn't the only crazy out there

that wanted to do this. So by and large, I started getting in contact with other women, other officials, We had our first national competition in 1981. That grew into involving more countries as I became more aware and more connected with the international weightlifting community. So we had our first world championship in 1987. But my dream had always been to get weightlifting into the Olympics. So I just made so many more contacts.

which led me to thinking that this might be a possibility. So long story short, we did get the women's weightlifting into the Olympics in 2000, which was amazing. I had the opportunity to, by that time, Mike, my weightlifting career on the platform had long since been gone. But I did have the opportunity to be an official at that Olympics. So I was just so pleased to see these women on the platform. During this time, I also was dealing with, or shortly after this time, I should say, I started dealing with my son who announced that he was transgender. So I have this background in my family dealing with this issue now that has entered the weightlifting arena.

So that is my background. And that is the subject of your second book, Dealing. with your son and that story. So let's talk first of all about the weightlifting part of it. I imagine that when you were doing this in the 70s and the 80s and later, you were not exactly being embraced by many of the men who were competing in weightlifting. I imagine it would not have been easy. Am I right?

Oh, no. Oh, yes. There were many raised eyebrows, many words. many words exchanged. Fortunately, my husband was kind of a buffer, but as I would be in these competitions and would say want to warm up on the platform before my lips, oh my goodness, the comments, what is she doing here?

She has no right being here. And they would scorn and they would essentially give me the impression that I was totally invading their sacred space. But the meet directors would allow me, again, to compete. They said, no, you cannot compete within the competition, but you can certainly compete outside the competition. So it took a long time before we could convince the weightlifting community that women could do this.

And that's one of the things I might add that I really wanted to get across, to the public as the women started to compete, that these were women who really appreciated the sport. They were knowledgeable about the sport. They could do the technique. And we were athletes first. We weren't out there to burst the, as it were, the ceiling of men's weightlifting.

But we just wanted to compete as athletes. And you say you just wanted to compete as athletes. you must have had such a tremendous sense of pride, you know, to take a sport that was very much at the margins and then bring it into the mainstream with the Olympics. Oh, I was just, I was on the jury at the Olympic Games and I just sat there with such emotion that these women, to use the expression, did me proud. They were such technicians. They carried themselves like women.

They carried themselves like athletes, and I couldn't have been more proud of the way they conducted themselves and their performances. They lifted fantastic. So I was like a mother hand, as it were. So, and this is kind of what I think we're getting at. The process of getting women the opportunity to compete on a par with men in the Olympics is something that you and other people like you had to fight for for a period of time. which brings us onto the conversation that is being had now about this issue, where, you know, depending on how you see it, some people would argue that that opportunity is now being taken away from women with someone like Laurel Hubbard coming in. What is your take on that whole situation?

I have a lot of takes on that whole situation. We got an hour, Judy, so you go for it. First of all, I believe that with your comment about our getting into women's sports, we did fight so hard for women, not only in weightlifting, but in other sports to compete on an equal playing field. We tried very hard to get access to coaches, to facilities, to equipment that would just allow us. as women to compete in something that we truly did enjoy. So when these opportunities came about, we embraced them and we competed against women.

And I think that that was the main thing that I wanted. I didn't want to compete against the men. I wanted to compete against women. That's where my heart was. That's where I felt I could contribute most was to give the opportunity. to women who enjoyed what I did. I knew, as I put before, I wasn't the only crazy. And as I found out, I wasn't.

There's a whole world of women out there that really did enjoy weightlifting. So I wanted to give them the opportunity to compete on that equal footing, women against women. And it came about not only in weightlifting, but in the other sports as well. So when we are addressing this whole transgender issue, that comes on several levels. When I first saw that she was going to compete a lot of emotions, frustration, a little bit of anger, but the sense that my work, not only mine, but so many other women who have, and I might add, that I didn't pioneer this on my own. I had so much help.

And so I'm just kind of the face of weightlifting at this point. But so many other women were involved in getting us to get the women's into the Olympics. So when it came to this issue, I felt rather betrayed. I felt anxious for the next generation of women weightlifters, because what are they going to face if we keep going down the trail that we are? So, for example, and we're talking about the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, has changed their policy through the years. And this is what really concerns me about where this is going with this whole agenda.

agenda that first of all, when we first started competing internationally, and we made, the women kind of made a joke about this, we had gender testing. That was, we swabbed the cheek, and there were actual chromosome testing. And we kind of joked that we had a little card that said we were a genuine female. That's not such a joke anymore. So that became the standard by which we were competing women against women. Then the IOC said, well, we're not really concerned with that. And that's about the time when the transgender community really hadn't come along in force much before that time.

There were a few that were making some inroads with other sports. I think the ILC made this change from the chromosome testing to if you are going to compete as a woman, then you need to have surgery. You need to be a woman. Well, as time goes on, the transgender community made some more issues and said, well, some of the athletes can't afford that. They are not going to go to that length. So they relaxed that and now they are only testing for testosterone. My feeling is if they have gone that far in relaxing all of these regulations for transgender, are they now going to relax them further and say,

well, now you only have to identify as a woman? That is my concern. We in Washington State, I'm on the west coast of the United States, and in my state and in several other states, that is the only criteria that some boys can compete against girls is say, I identify as a girl. So this is what really concerns me as this progresses, is that we are accommodating a very, very, very few to the exclusion of,

of women. So what I'm saying is that we are accommodating the wants of a few against the needs of the many. So as this begins to be more invasive, women are going to be hurt by this. If men only have to say they identify as a woman, that gives them perfect access. And the law now is going to accommodate that, that they have access to locker rooms, to restrooms, to any other women's spaces. So this is not just sports. This is across the board in our culture. And I am very fearful for our women because of this whole idea that has come across. So yes, I have a lot of passion about this whole identity and this gender. I hate to use the word praise, but unfortunately, for the young people, it has become a

craze. And I can say a whole lot more about that as well. So if you want to interject. No, we're finding you very interesting. And on the show, we love to hear our guest talk. Judy, I'm going to slightly push back on that. So let's take the case of Laurel Habbard. As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong,

she had to be below a certain testosterone level when she competed, then surely isn't that enough? Doesn't that put her an equal footing with all the other athletes? And look, trans-rightist activists would say, if she had such an advantage, then how come she lost in the first round? Well, first of all, if we parlay that out, we can say, all right, if you're going to go by testosterone, are you going to test everybody for testosterone? And given there are some women, biological women, that have a fairly high testosterone level.

Are you going to keep them out just because their testosterone level is slightly higher? So this not only affects them, but it affects all the other women as well. Judy, sorry to interject that, but actually you say that. as a theoretical, actually at these very Olympics that are occurring as we speak, that has happened. Several women have been excluded, not from weightlifting, but from other competitions, precisely because of that. And so it very much speaks to your point. And by the way, the point Francis is making is very much a devil's advocate. I think it's also important to get into the fact that testosterone alone isn't the only thing that is the difference between men and women,

right? Absolutely. Absolutely. firmly believe that that God created men and women. There are only two genders. And your gender is assigned at birth. You're either a man or a woman, a girl or a boy. So you are given those testosterone. And yes, some men have higher estrogen levels. Some women have higher testosterone levels. This is all part of being who we are as those individuals. So as you're saying, that in and of itself doesn't make you a man or a woman. So that point addressed, as far as her performance goes, yes, she may have had some of these or this testosterone level within those limits.

But given her age, she was 43 years old. And it is very, very rare that a woman can compete on that level at that age. So that is another factor. I can't speak to why she performed. There's a lot of different factors why she did what she did. She's not the only one that, to use, the weight living expression, bombed out. That is, she did not make a lift. There are, unfortunately, other lifters, very much male, very much female, that did the same thing.

So that in and of itself, I don't think her perform. really speaks to that issue. Well, right. You're not comparing like what like. The fact that a 43-year-old athlete bombed out while competing with 25-year-olds, isn't this? So I guess in a way, the fact that Laurel Hubbard made it to the Olympics at the age of 43 shows, to some extent, the advantage that Laurel Hubbard had, right?

And give us some figures, because this would be interesting. On your personal, did you continue? Did you continue to try and compete by the time you were 43? Oh, I hung on as long as I could. So my, like I said, we started the, our nationals, the U.S. nationals in 1981. I had already been lifting 10 years before that. But I continued to progress. I won four national championships.

And then that's when I started. to wane. That's when my lifting, my best lifting was about 30, my early 30s, maybe, middle 30s. And as we got more into international competition, and I saw the Olympics coming on, I said, oh, my goodness, I got to try, but there was no way. And that's when I started to compete at 40 on the master's level. And my lifts were nowhere near by that time what they were at my peak in my 30s. Can you give us the numbers? At your peak, what would you lift and what might you be lifting at 40 odd?

Oh, let's see. My best snatch was 82 and a half and kilos and my best clean jerk was 97.5 kilos. As I started to compete on the master's level, my snatch on a good day was probably 60. Clean and jerk, maybe 75. Right. So, you know, by that time, they were definitely coming down. And believe me, I tried my best. I trained and I did all that I could to hang on to that.

But scientifically, you do start losing muscle mass, particularly in women, at least by the age of 40. So to try to keep that level at that age, as contrast, we have only a few men who generally keep their strength later than women. we have only a few men that have been able to keep their strength up into their 40s, into the 41, 42, 43 up around that age. So it's even very difficult for men to do that. And so what you're saying is that it's utterly remarkable that Laurel Hubbard could then compete at that level, really, particularly if she was classified as a woman.

It's unheard of, essentially. I truly think so. I think that it is a rarity. Hey, Constantin, how are you feeling? Good. And your mental health? I'm from Russia, we don't have mental health. Well, in the civilized world, we talk about our mental health and how we're feeling about our place in the universe. In the words of my Uncle Vlad, that is why we will crush you. Well, he's two months away from a breakdown.

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which includes hundreds of hours of programming and new content is added every week. Over 1 million people around the world use Calm to take care of their minds. Yes, Trigonometry fans get special limited time promotion, 40% off premium subscription, take advantage of this amazing offer, go to can.com forward slash trigger for 40% of unlimited access to come entire library. That's cam.com forward slash trigger. And I can't believe I'm going to ask you this question, but I think it's important. Why is it so important that we protect women's sports, in your opinion, from transgender athletes, from people who want to compete?

I think it's important on a couple levels. First of all, like I said, to, to, Well, let me cite, for example, a case going on right now in the United States. Two women who are track athletes, they were competing at the high school level. A transgender boy identified as a woman competed against them. Subsequently broke records that the events that these girls were competing in. unfortunately because he was competing as a woman and getting ranked first in these events, breaking these records, they lost their college scholarships because of this. So this is the ramification that is happening very in right now in our time,

and these are not the only girls that are going to be affected. if they make this rule across the board that all you have to do is identify as a girl or as a woman in competing girl sports, we are going to really set women's sports back years because of the lost opportunities that they are going to have competing against women on these higher levels. So that's my first concern. My next concern is the message that these people are giving to the next generation of not only sportsmen, sports women, those women that want to compete in sports as athletes and so forth, but these younger girls in general saying, look at what these, I can do this. It's no big deal. I think I'm a boy. So unfortunately, we have made this so easy.

and now unfortunately we are now even making this so accessible that when a youngster, and we're talking four and five years old, if they express any kind of interest in the opposite gender, then they are, and I will use the word forcibly, because that is exactly what's happening. The doctors, the parents, the teachers, are obligated to transition that youngster as young as possible. That is the biggest mistake we can make.

And unfortunately, the more the media plays with all these transgenders and the more, I quote, unquote, opportunities they are giving them, they are just encouraging this whole transgender agenda as soon as possible for these youngsters and they have no business doing that. I heard one pediatrician say that this is the worst form of child abuse that he has ever seen. And unfortunately, it is going that way. We know that a youngster, and I know from my own experience, when I was young, I liked boy things.

I like to climb trees. I like to ride bikes over bumps. I like to wrestle. I like to do. I like to test my strength. totally unheard of when I was growing up in the in the 50s and 60s that was totally unheard of. You know, girls just don't do those things. If I had been later doing those things later as a girl, they more than likely they would have said,

oh, you should have been a boy. Let's transition. You like these things. And I said, oh, yes, I want to be a boy because that's. and I thought that would be great. But I grew out of that. And that's what they're saying with these youngsters is that the greater percentage is up into almost the 90% that these children grow out of it.

So as we transition these youngsters into this, we are forcing them into this whole area that they should never have been entered into. By the time they get into puberty, and we've given them puberty blockers, and we have told them to transition into that opposite gender, they are very, very confused. We are seeing suicide rates unbelievable in these. And the argument, I will say, is that, well, my son or daughter had threatened suicide like my son did. he threatened suicide but my point is yes there is a dysphoria between the mind and the body but my point is can we not try to get the mind in line with the body rather than going through all of this mutilation of the body to bring it in line with the mind i think not

God created you as a man or as a woman and he has given you a mind as a man, a mind as a woman, and your body is in line with that. Unfortunately, we have now made conversion therapy illegal. And that bothers me a lot. That even if a person says, oh, maybe I'm not sure. Oh, no, no, can't do that. it is illegal for a pastor, for a parent, for any professional health care, illegal for a teacher, to encourage any conversion therapy.

That is to say that if you're questioning your gender and you think, well, maybe I'm not, maybe I really should, I'm really not a boy like I thought it was, I really am a girl. No, no, you're, you're, we're transitioning. you into a boy? What situation does this put the child in? Judy, this is something we've covered on the show quite a bit, but just coming back to sport, because I do want to bring up the suicide and all of that side of it, because I do think it's a big part of the conversation. Just coming back to the sport for a moment, some people might say, the counter argument to many of the things you're saying is, well, look, you were a pioneer

in women's sports and you'd be turning up to gyms, I imagine, and feeling like there's no place for you there and you didn't quite fit in and if it weren't for your husband who was supporting and encouraging you, you really would have been an outcast and an outlier in that environment

and you had to fight and fight and fight to be given the opportunity, to be included, to be represented, to be seen. You had to work with other people like you, other women, to get the chance to compete. Surely you can emphasize with someone, these people would argue, you can emphasize with someone who currently feels like they're being excluded. They are not able to compete. They don't have the opportunity to perform at the Olympics

in the gender identity that they very strongly feel that they are. Well, I feel that I obeyed the rules, as it were. The rules stated that weightlifting was for men. That's fine. I competed outside of the competition until we could get women against women. I think this is a whole different avenue because it carries so much more of the ramifications. And they do have their own games. They have the gay games, which includes the LGBTQ community. So in that respect, they say, okay, well, we have, and to answer your question, they have gone to like people, they have garnered their group and they have formed their competitions against who they are. But when it comes to the Olympics, the Olympics is exclusionary between men and women. that is the point that I the the Olympics is a to me a very sacred ground it has been for years in years

so unfortunately when you start going down this road that's what I'm saying is that you may be excluded just like Laurel what what women did she step over as it were to get to that position. There were many women that fought very, very hard to get to that Olympic podium, to get to that Olympic stage. And they weren't allowed to do that because of what she did. So that's where I'm coming from in women's sports. Let women compete against women.

Because if we don't, then you're opening up a whole new can of worms. And these women, what are they going to say? It might really come down to the point to where the women are being frustrated and said, what's the use? If that guy says that he's a girl, I have no chance. So why? So we're putting this in that sort of vein. And I am very concerned that we're opening up this very big can of worms, as it were,

when it comes to women competing on these higher levels. certainly on the lower level, like I mentioned, on these states that just say, you can just say you're a girl and have added. And these girls that have striven so hard, they have trained so hard, they miss their opportunities. And Judy, what is the attitude towards these transgender athletes amongst female athletes? I'm not really sure. To be real honest, I haven't had the opportunity.

to really question them. I will say kind of on that, on that vein, they did a, gender testing was done up until about 1998 with the chromosomes. Then there was kind of an uproar saying, oh, well, these women feel violated and they feel like they're being intruded upon their questioning. my gender. However, they sent a questionnaire to 3,000 athletes asking them two questions. Number one, do you feel violated by questioning your gender? And number two, would you like this to continue? They got out of that over 3,000, they got almost a thousand responses back. The overwhelming

response, over 80 to 85 percent said, yes, we want that. this to continue, and 90, over 90%, said, I do not feel violated. So from that, I, and granted, this was years ago, but I still feel that that probably would be the same today, that women would want that same thing. They want to be equal on that footing. And Judy, do you think Laurel Hubbard marks the start of a pattern where we're going to start to see more and more transgender athletes competing in elite sport, elite female sport? We could. It all depends on the ILC. If they continue to relax the criteria, then I think it will.

Yes, I think across the board in Olympic sports, the door is definitely open. And I think there are many that will. go through that door. Judy, let me ask you another stupid question. I know we're asking you quite a lot of them, but it's because we live in a society where we pretend that we don't know the answer to them. So let me do this. Can you give us, first of all, just some figures for the differences between elite male weight lifters and elite female weight lifters competing in the same competitions for the same movements?

What kind of differences are we seeing? No, weight-wise, weights lifted, are you talking about? Well, for example, we just watch the super heavy weights. And Lasha lifted 585 pounds. I forget the kilos, 200 and some odd kilos, I'm sorry. We're so used to pounds over here. Not a problem. but an enormous amount of weight, super heavy weight.

And are the super heavy weight in the women lifted close to 400 pounds, I do believe. So, you know, there's a big, big gap. And what if that male lifter was to take some kind of testosterone? suppressants or something to lower their testosterone, would that immediately make them into, would that reduce their performance to women's levels? I can't say that it actually would because there, you know,

there's so many other factors other than that. So I hesitate to say yes or no on that particular, I would say just off the top of my head that, yeah, testosterone makes a difference. that's pretty much why men have testosterone and can do the things they do and women have a lower testosterone and higher estrogen. But what I'm getting at is there are other physiological differences between men and women on the shape of the hips, the angle of the legs and the size of the heart, the lungs,

the all sorts of other stuff. Absolutely. So what I'm asking you really is it's just dropping, if you've taken a male elite weight, weightlifter and reducing their level of testosterone, is that enough to make them be able to compete with women who have the same level of testosterone as they do? I wouldn't say that it would. And the other thing is that the muscle physiology of a man is different. They retain a lot more of that testosterone.

And I am not a doctor. I am not a physiologist. But from my background in sports and the studies I have, there is a vast difference between the physiology of men and women's muscle, for example. So the tendon strength, the attachment strength, like I said, the retention of testosterone, all of these make a difference. So it's not just that one factor that I think would make the difference. And Judy, do you think this whole saga has been damaging for women's weightlifting? I don't know if it's been actually damaging. It might make the women more competitive and say, hey, you know, we want to compete as women.

So it could kind of go either way. I don't think one woman or one man transgendering is going to make a great deal of difference at this point. However, I do feel, as we have mentioned, that it does open the door for others to come in. So to make a difference in women's weightlifting at this point, I'm not sure that it will, but I do think that it will in future generations. It sounds like your concern is the regulations, making sure that the regulations are fair. And I guess if you don't think that testosterone alone is a measure of that,

then the fact that that is the criteria that's currently, criterion that's currently been used, then I imagine you don't feel the current rules are appropriate. I don't think so, but unfortunately, As they say, the genie is out of the bottle. I would like to go back to chromosome testing. However, that's probably not going to happen. Why not?

History has shown that regulations generally do not backtrack. They only get softer. They don't get harder. So that is my biggest concern is the track record. Like I say, you follow what the IOC has done. done in the past, they've gotten softer. They haven't gotten harder. So to go back to that. And we have now such a big transgender voice, not just in the athletic arena, but, and this is interesting too, is kind of a side mark that most of the people pushing for a lot of the

transgender activity are not transgendered. They are political people who are pushing, this transgender agenda. So that's why I think that the rules aren't going to go back to that because we have such a major political group that will get involved and fight for less, not more. Judy, why do you think this case has struck such accord? Because, you know, women's powerlifting, women's powerlifting, weightlifting, it's a minority. sport. You know, it will have its people who will follow it, who will enjoy it. But it's not a mainstream sport, dare I say. But this case has elevated it to a mainstream story. It's been

talked all over the world. Why do you think that is? Because naturally, because, as you said, weightlifting has been primarily a man's sport. So, and strength has been part, particularly the, I would say, the mirror of a man's strength or a woman's strength. So this has kind of been the determination. Weightlifting is the epitome of strength. So you have someone coming in as this person, and naturally it's going to be the forefront of what a man or a woman is. So I think that that in and of itself is going to be the pivot point of this whole transgender thing is watching what women do with strength and what men do with strength.

And Judy, if you don't mind me asking about your personal story with your family, because I do think it's relevant here, if that's okay with you, how do you square your very passionate defense of protecting women's sport with your own? an experience which you've written about in your book, of having a son who was not comfortable with his sex or his gender, wanted to transition, was unable to, and eventually ended up sadly taking his own life. I'm sure for a mother, that's literally the worst thing that could happen. And of course, our heart goes out to you. But how do you reconcile those two things? Because I imagine you would have wanted your son to get whatever support he needed to be happy and to live a happy life? Therein lies the rub. I knew that he was not a woman.

And to allow him to pursue that avenue would only lead to his unhappiness. This is not, it has shown time and time again that the surgeries, the transitioning, does not solve the problem. The suicide rates after transition are just as high. It does not solve anything. So when it came to my son, we really tried and we pray diligently that he would get the help through counseling, through whatever means we could to again show him that he truly was. God gave him a male body.

and he had a plan for him as a boy growing up into a man. And this is very unfortunate because, like I said, as we push these people into it, they find that many times this is not the solution. So that's why we did not go along. We did not condone him. We made sure that he understood we love him. We loved him as our child, no matter what he is, and no matter what he does, he is always our child. We love him.

But unfortunately, we couldn't condone that journey that he was taking because in our hearts, we knew it would only lead to unhappiness. I have talked to many people who have come out of their transition and said, this was the body that God gave me. is where I'm going to find peace and happiness. It was not in that opposite gender. So that's why I'm pushing so hard to get conversion therapy allowed so that we can get these people on the right track so that they have their mind and their body in sync and not try to go through something that is going to be irreversible in their bodies. So the whole idea of pushing these people are doing them, I think, a disservice. Hey, Constantine, are you crypto-curious?

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That's Coinbase.com. forward slash trigger if you're real man. So when you say conversion therapy, the only time I've ever heard conversion therapy, Judy, is gay conversion therapy, which we know just doesn't work. How is transgender conversion therapy different and how does it work?

Well, my take on conversion therapy, as we're using it, is to allow that person to at least consider that they are not of the opposite gender. And unfortunately, many times they are convinced that, and there's no talking to them, but there are some that, and I'm talking about children, young children, who exhibit the opposite gender behavior. And later on, and they, parents or teachers or whoever have allowed them to display the opposite gender behavior as much as they want to. But later on, they say, hmm, maybe I do really like to put on a dress. And they were born a girl and maybe they thought they were a boy.

So they played with boys, things and so on and so forth. But later on, maybe I do like to put on a dress or maybe I do like a girl thing. today's society will have already put them on the path to being a boy with no turning around. So my conversion therapy is saying let's allow that child to at least be themselves and explore what their birth gender really is and be at peace with that, be happy with that. in whatever way we can we can allow them to do that through counseling, primarily through counseling. But that's my point on conversion, at least letting them explore where they're happy in,

and possibly their birth gender. Well, it sounds like what you're really talking about is you're against the transitioning of children, which I think most people would be. Absolutely. There have been, again, many, many studies showing that these kids who are put on that transgender path that early, by the time they get into puberty, you can imagine how confused, how frustrating they might be. They are puberty blockers, which means that everything is stopped. Their hormones have stopped.

Their bodies are not developing like they should have. So they see their peers going through this stage and they're doing nothing. The girls are not developing breasts. They are not going through their periods and so forth. The guys are not developing beards and so forth. So they're in a quandary. Well, who am I? I don't see anything happening.

So they're identifying really as neither being. because they don't see any progress in what they're going through. Unfortunately, again, this can be irreversible. So perchance they do go later on in life and say, I really was a woman. I'm not a man. I've talked with several people who have lived in the opposite gender, females, particularly living as a man for maybe 15, 20 years.

and they come to themselves and they say, God put me in a woman's body. I am a woman. Now, if they had gone through all the surgery, they have irreversible damage. They have lost their sex drive in organs and their hormones and so forth. unfortunately, damage done.

That's my concern when we have all these kids going through this. And unfortunately, it has become a fad because we are introducing it so early in our sex education courses that they are literally taught to explore who they really are. They are not, we have taken out pink and blues, we have taken out girls and boys. everybody is just one neutral person. So right off the bat, our kids are being told, you can be anything that you want to be. So our kids are unfortunately being used as, I think,

pawns in this whole situation. They are truly not allowed to really go the path that they were created to be. Judy, thank you so much for coming on the show. We're going to ask a few questions for our local supporters afterwards, but we're going to end this interview with our final question, which is always, what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society, but we really should be?

I think we've pretty much covered the waterfront as far as that goes, that I think that that I would encourage any parent who is involved with a transgender son or daughter to really explore really what what transgender is. Go into the research, go into the background, find out really what is happening before you allow your child really to get into this. God has a plan for them in the gender that they were given. And that's the only way that they can find fulfillment and happiness in that place that God has for them. Thanks, Judy. And before we ask our locals questions and before we let you go for the purposes of the interview,

where can people find your work online? My book, Mom, I'm a Girl, is at Judy Glennie. my weightlifting book uplifting dreams is at w-l-l-g-L-E-N-N-E-Y W-L-L-G-L-G-L-G-N-E-Y. W-L-L-Glennie. So both of those books are available on my two websites. Judy, thanks for coming on the show, and thank you all for watching at home. We will see you very soon with another episode like this one or a show. All then go out at 7 p.m. UK time, which is 2 p.m. Eastern.

Take care and see you soon, guys. We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview. Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode. And if you believe that the work we do here at Trigonometry is important, support us by joining our locals community using the link below.