TRIGGERnometry - US vs. China is the New Cold War

Episode Date: November 3, 2019

Melissa Chen is New York Editor for Spectator USA and MD of Ideas Beyond Borders @ideasb2 See Konstantin perform Orwell That Ends Well  London: 24 Nov @ Angel Comedy @ The Bill Murray: https://angelcomedyclub.nutickets.com/54960651 Brighton: Nov 23 @ Artista Cafe & Gallery:  https://artistacafe.gallery/whats-on/konstantin-kisin-orwell-that-ends-well-23rd-november-2019/?fbclid=IwAR0W1dO0c0Qb2NmfyRjEYwfaAdHTi4k2_ZqewEj7Ck_kakcXscLqFVTVHNU Cambridge: Nov 17 @ Cambridge Wine Merchants: https://www.cambridgelive.org.uk/tickets/events/wine-gums-comedy-afternoon-0?fbclid=IwAR0l5ZIVjch5Wzn2OCDn8i2GH_9shxvt93ndNJqpSPbOvv9YaPnldrjqi6Y Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And this is the show for you. If you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects, they know nothing about. At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts. As you can see, we're on location this week and our brilliant expert guest this week is a newly appointed New York editor of The Spectator USA. Melissa Chen, welcome to Trigonometry. Hello, thank you for having me.

So, well, thank you for having us. We're actually in your friend's place right now. Thank you for making the time on your trip to London. It is good to have you here. For anyone who doesn't know who you are, we've had your on our radar for quite some time to talk to. That surprises me. I caught myself thinking it's a very stalkery thing to say halfway through the thing,

but I meant for us to talk to you on the show. For anyone who doesn't know who you are, tell us a little bit about who are you, how are you where you are, what has been the journey that leads you to sit in a chair in front of these cameras? Well, also, I'm originally from Singapore, born and bred, which in an office office is a bit more unique. I think you probably rarely have any guests from Singapore. And I made my way to the U.S. maybe when I was 17.

I always said I came for education, but I stayed for the civil liberties. Singapore is pretty repressive as a society. And I grew up under conditions where, you know, I knew what it was like to not be able to speak freely. So I've always been very pro-free speech. But that having said, I mean, no complaints growing up there. It was one best places to have, you know, had a childhood, a very prosperous little country and kind of interesting on the political spectrum as well, not neatly defined. is left or right. So that also informs my own worldview in politics pretty much.

And so I came to the U.S. study, actually, I did science. So it was a scientist for quite a few years. And then met an Iraqi refugee by the name of Faisal, and we found it an NGO together. We deal with sort of Middle East issues, translating texts of the Enlightenment, popular books by Stephen Pinker, Sam Harris, all into Arabic and making them digitally available for free for anyone who wants to read them, Arabic, Farsi, and Kurdish. And the idea is to challenge orthodoxy in the Middle East, challenge censorship, and try to bring in plural ideas, right? So that's what I did. And recently joint Spectator USA, because they finally, after, I mean, it was a long time coming. It was found in 1828 and

here in the UK and finally went over to the other side, in print as well. So you'll be able to read me and all my musings and political, you know, ramblings on Spectator USA. Well, that's actually one of the reasons we're keen to have you on the show, because we have been reading your ramblings and your musings. And you've been quite clear about your views on China. And you're Han Chinese. Am I right? I'm half, yeah. Half, yeah.

And that's an issue that a lot of our audience have been clamoring for us to start addressing, which is Hong Kong and China more broadly. So let's dip into that. I remember we were talking before we started the show when Donald Trump was running for president and people making fun of him because he was talking about China making it a big issue.

But from what you've written, my sense is that you are pretty comfortable that it is the major issue that is confronting the United States and more broadly the Western world right now. Well, the entire world. The China issue is really kind of, kind of the linchpin issue of our time, I think.

It's the new Cold War. It's the new dividing line on where people stand in terms of what kind of world do we want. Do we want to pex Americana or peck Synege? What world order do we want? Are we going to abandon the liberal world order that was established after World War II? And what's going to take its place? That's really what China represents. And it's the way things are evolving is pretty interesting.

countries are lining up and taking sides in this, right? So Russia, China, there's this new access, and then they're the new allies. And, you know, the question for our time is, well, which side are the people who live in the free societies like we do? Where are they going to stand? And what is the situation like in China at the moment with regards to Hong Kong? Well, I mean, it's so hard to find out what happens in China because everything is control, like state media is the only media around. You don't have, you have, you know, basically Facebook, Instagram, all these social media companies are not allowed in China.

So it's, unless you know people there and talk to people on the ground, it's pretty difficult to get any word out. Tell us about the Hong Kong issue. Like just for anyone who saw a news report once three weeks ago and though some people are protesting Hong Kong, just break that down for us. For anyone who doesn't know anything about it, I've been to Hong Kong a couple of times to a great place and lovely people, but that doesn't

necessarily mean I know anything about it, and that'll be the case for a lot of people as well. So Hong Kong has been, for the past four months, sort of engulfed in protests. They're calling it the pro-democracy protests, if you are following on Twitter, those are the hashtags that are trending. And every weekend almost, you know, you have throngs, I mean, really throngs, at its peak, one in seven Hong Kongers were on the streets, taking to the streets, for the most part, peacefully protesting, but they have been violent escalations every now and then, but they are disruptive. They do disrupt, you know, train schedules and even sometimes the airport sentence.

But what they're protesting or what they were, what it started out was that it started out as a protest against an extradition law that Hong Kong tried to pass. Carrie Lam eventually, who's the chief executive of Hong Kong, eventually canceled it because of the protests. Like several months in, it was just getting way too crazy. And what that extradition law would have allowed was anyone that basically China wanted, could be extradited from Hong Kong to face trial in China. And the thing about trials in China is that it's pretty much up to the winds of the Chinese Communist Party,

the CCP. And, you know, if you're a dissident, if you are a bookseller who has been selling sort of you know, books that were not sanctioned, you could just be disappeared and end up in mainland China for show trials that has happened before the extradition law passed. So with it, this now allows this to happen under a very legal framework. So this was a clear violation of the treaty, the joint, you know, the joint treaty signed between Britain and Hong Kong in China when Hong Kong was handed over in 1997, because it was a British colony for so many years along with, in Rakao is another colony as well.

So in the end, they canceled the extradition law, but the protest sort of morphed into something a bit bigger. It became about wanting universal suffrage, because it doesn't exist there. It became about accountability because the police were actually really brutal to the protesters, and so they were demanding for some accountability for that.

And I think there are five core demands of the protesters. one of them is actually not about independence. So it's got nothing to do with actual independence. The Chinese state media will call it a separatist movement. It is not because it's not one of the five core demands. In fact, I think the only people that are saying that are people buying into the apologetics of the Chinese Communist Party. And do you think part of the problem is, well, a lot of the problem is, is the fact that until 1997, Hong Kong, was part of, you know, they had freedom, essentially.

They did. And in fact, one of the first pieces I wrote about this was actually for Aero Magazine. Helen Pluckrose was my very gracious editor. And a former guest of us, of course. Yeah, exactly. And I wrote about how, because at the time, you know, when the protests were started, kind of people were very confused because, well, the Western media was very confused, or they didn't seem to know how to address this.

But the Hong Kong protesters were waving the British flag. the Union Jack, they were waving the American star-spangled banner, and they were singing the national anthem. And to see, you know, the inhabitants of a former colony raised a colonial flag was very jarring to woke eyes, right, of our time. So it was confusing, and I wrote an article about how post-colonial theory kind of affects how we see the protesters and their plight. and the fact that we can't really process that right now in modern terms, at least in the West, Western media. And that if it wasn't for the British legacy, there would be nothing to protest about, right?

So that's one of the complications of this. I mean, to even talk about maybe one of the things that British rule brought to Hong Kong that was worth holding on to, which is a point that's very difficult. to make today because decolonization movement and everything. And that scene is just something that was a very nasty period in human history and there's no other way to look at it, zero. But here was a bit of a contradiction that the protesters were holding up a symbol of freedom and had it not been for British common law brought through colonial rule that they would not be

fighting for the very thing that they are fighting for now. And the interesting thing about you talk about the empire, actually, one of the great ironies of this whole depost colonization, all this stuff, is that Britain actually has a great relationship with its former colonies, many of them. And people in many of those countries have a tremendous amount of affinity and a sense of loyalty and common purpose and common values with Britain. And Hong Kong is great. I have so many, I play a lot of basketball. I have so many friends from Hong Kong that are big fans. But I think Hong Kong, Hong Kong and some of the other things you've written about, which is the NBA, which we'll get on to.

They're kind of like test cases on the West's willingness to stand up what's right versus stand up for what's comfortable or for what's economically advantageous, right? Right, exactly. So, characterized for us the U.S. and perhaps the Western response to what's been happening in Hong Kong, have the British American government's been strong enough in supporting those people? Have they supported them at all? I would say that what's interesting about the Hong Kong issue is that it is one of the rare issues that drew bipartisan support in Congress, at least lip service. Right. Right. So you had even Senator Elizabeth Warren coming out and supporting the Hong Kong protesters, and so are many people in the right like Marco Rubio.

So there is at least consensus verbally. But in terms of passing resolutions or supporting the trade war, there's a bit of a divide. I think the left is definitely more critical about the trade war. Whether it is because it's Trump perpetuating it, I don't know, because it's one of those things where I do remember a time when the Democrats were a lot more in favor of protectionist trade policies. for us you see the flip where now the conservatives are actually very pro-trade war that we need to do this to sort of stem China's power. It's going to hurt them more than us.

This is an issue of national security. And therefore we should prioritize national security over economics, over what's going to be comfortable. We're going to lose probably jobs, GDP's economic growth is going to be sluggish because of it. But it's a worthwhile trade-off because this is a national security issue. So that's where the right stands on the trade war. And then, of course, Trump supporters are just all in, you know. And if you talk to, well, I have friends that are journalists.

And some of them talk to farmers out in the Midwest. They said that many Midwesterners who grow soybeans know that, well, because of the trade war, China's not going to be buying them. But they kind of see that as a necessary bullet to bite, which is interesting to see that kind of response. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being,

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Your body tells you, if you're going to invest in anything for your home, your bed is the way. one that pays you back every single night. Avocado products are made, not manufactured, and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort and support. Go to avocado greenmatress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. And this is a term that I always hear bandied about and people reference it. If you were going I explain it in a very clean, succinct way. What is the trade war and what is that situation between America and China as of this moment? As of this moment. So the trade war is what Trump

had implemented was a series of tariffs, some of them incremental, but mostly on agricultural products and other United States exports into China. And likewise, he also had tariffs on imports into the United States to protect certain industries, make it difficult, basically, for both countries to trade. It penalized, the theory was that it penalizes China more, and therefore, because it's going to hurt them more, that they would come to the bargaining table to talk about other things.

And, you know, Trump is always, I mean, in fact, he's been campaigning. This has been one of his campaign promises that China's been treating us very unfairly. Also in the labor markets, you know, we need to push back on them. It's been unfair trade practices. Look at the account deficit. So he's been kind of consistent on this, actually.

And the fact that he's kind of made this a central piece right now of his agenda is very much consistently in line with what he's been saying even when he was campaigning. Where it is now is that they've kind of agreed not to escalate the trade war currently. So I think there is an agreement between China and the United States. And last I remember that the tariffs that are still in place to be enacted in September and November are still in place. But for now, the trade war scene, there seems to be a temporary truce. By the time this goes out, this could be... It's just such a quickly evolving situation. Yeah.

And any spark, like the NBA situation, could just make it worse. And that happens so quickly. Well, before we get onto the NBA, I have listened to Donald Trump talk about China quite a bit. I've never heard him really say that much about Hong Kong. Is that because I've been listening to the wrong thing? Or is it a big issue in his mind, do you feel? There was one thing that he did say that, you know, was a very positive development for people who are on the Hong Kong side.

He said that it would be very bad for China if they took any military action against Hong Kong. So if there were troops rolling in or anything, there was a bit of a warning that it would be bad for China. What that meant, no one knows, but it was a tweet. usual. I'm sure it was well considered. Right. So I think a lot of people are disappointed that he couldn't say anything more, but on the other hand, I understand that he has to, you know, consider a lot of jobs. I mean, I wish he could be far more forceful than he has been and sort of

pushing for things on the, on the Hong Kong supporter side. But at the end of the day, Hong Kong's going to go back to China in 2047 officially, that one country, two systems, that's going to be abolished in 2047. What is really the end game for the people of Hong Kong? I mean, it's, you know, the longer the straw us out, really is China's advantage just because of the terms of the treaty and what's going to happen either way. So it's hard to see what the goal is there. I guess what it's highlighted to the world is the reality of what China is. Correct. And China's huge power, which is where we come to the NBA, because for anyone who didn't follow this story, Darrow Mori, who's general manager.

of the Houston Rockets made a comment supporting the protesters in Hong Kong. He just tweeted a photograph, and the photograph said, stand for freedom, fight with Hong Kong. Right. Or fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong. And the NBA immediately, I don't think they censored him, but they certainly made it clear that they didn't support that message. They pulled back.

They apologized to the Chinese people. Yao Ming, the famous Chinese basketball player, who used to play for the Houston Rockets, ended his relationship. You know, you had other players who play for the Houston Rockers now apologizing to China. And Steve Kerr, who's the coach of the Golden State Warriors, talking about how actually America is just as bad as China. Right, when asked about that.

Crazy stuff. And what it showed and what it highlighted is actually the NBA, which is a huge sport in America. Its American fan base is like a tenth of the size of its fan base in China. So many American, even entertainment industries now are beholden to China. That is the power that China now wields over us. And you've written quite a bit about this. Right.

There are many ways that China's infiltrated and is able to influence our economic systems, even academia. It's pretty scary. But, you know... Tell us more about that. Well, I mean, the thing was historically, the thinking was that as China, you know, liberalized its economy and introduced market reforms and got more wealthy, and we started engaging with trade in trade with them, that eventually they'll have no choice, especially with the internet, they're going to have to open up. Once new ideas kind of reach their shores and

along with rising affluence because of market reforms, that China's just going to allow political freedoms to creep back in and slowly open the country up, that by far was... was one of the wrongest bets of our time. I mean, if we look back probably on the last maybe 20 years, that was probably the worst calculation we could have made. Not only did it not pan out, it got worse. I think China has built a system that is semi-capitalist. It's state capitalists, for sure,

but it remained autocratic in almost every other facet of life. But now it has technology to almost make that authoritarianism, even more efficient and even more totalitarian because technology is just this great enabler. And now, which is what the NBA issue has been showing and other things like it's control of Hollywood, it's exporting that to the United States. I mean, that's the scary part. It's that they're able to influence from afar what, you know, what people beyond their borders can think, can say. I mean, the fact that they could get Darry to, kind of make this follow-up grovelling tweet that, oh, you know what, this is just one perspective

out of many interpretations of the Hong Kong event. And that was just such a, you know, it's just terrible to see because you know where he stands. It was pretty clear where he stood before. And now this poor guy had to basically backtrack because of business implications to his team, which were huge. I mean, they're not insignificant. I think every single Chinese sponsor are pulled out of the Houston Rockets. The CCTV canceled their games. I like how the Chinese national broadcasting system is called CCTV, by the way. People have said that.

And Tencent, which was basically in a contract with the NBA for $1.5 million over five years to digitally stream the games, canceled the screening of the preseason games. And then you had shoe companies pulling out. And it's just, it was a whole boycott. I mean, you talk about cancel culture. This was the ultimate cancel culture, right? And even Nike stores in China were pulling NBA and Rockets merchandise. And it's like, this is Nike.

You know, you have your American company. Have some, I mean, for lack of better word, balls. Don't let China neuter the West. It's kind of ridiculous. Well, it's easy to hate Trump, isn't it? When you're a woke company. Right. And exactly.

So Nike's like that, but so was the NBA to some extent. The NBA previously had used the all-star game in North Carolina that was going to be played in Charlotte, North Carolina, to pressure the North Carolina government to sort of do something with the bathroom bills, like to introduce gender neutral bathrooms. And the NBA has always been, in a way, I mean, to their credit, I think, allowed its players to speak up, whatever it was. politically, right? So you had players like LeBron James and others, like even Steph Curry, who had been critical of the president. They never wanted to go to the White House if they won the championship. But they were critical about the United States for race relations, inequality and things like that. And they spoke out. Even the coaches, Steve Curry. Well, LeBron called Donald Trump a bum. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, but Obama also called

Kanye a jackass before, remember that? But there's more, I mean, Steve Kerr has been outspoken on gun control. Immigration, both him and Greg Popovich have talked about race stuff. So the NBA has allowed people to speak, but the moment China pops up suddenly. It was not okay, right? And that's the thing, because it costs them nothing to allow woke sort of activism in the league. It did not cost them anything. In fact, it might even help.

But when it came to China, it actually cost them. And that's where they failed. I mean, to the credit of Adam Silver, at least the commissioner, you seem to at least say, we're not going to sanction the rockets. They're allowed to say whatever they want. That's what Adam Silver said in a press conference. However, the official tweet by the NBA themselves, their statement was, frankly, for me, left much to be desired because it was kind of different

in Chinese and English. And the Chinese tweet came out a lot more aggressive saying apologizing for hurting the feelings of the Chinese people and said that Moray's comments were extremely inappropriate. So there was a lot more, they definitely took a value stand against what Moray said and then also acknowledge that it hurt the feelings of the Chinese people. And that just reminds me of the kind of sort of landscape we have to navigate here where a fence is basically enough for us to kowtow to outrage culture. This is outrage culture, but the consequences are much bigger.

Well, it's the work, not the work movement or the Chinese like freedom of speech, do they really. Can you imagine hurting 1.4 billion people's feelings? You think people get upset with us when we're on stage, we say something controversial. I know, it's the type of reach we can only dream of. But that's the thing that the Chinese government does. It's that it tries to present the Chinese, obviously, it presents the Chinese people as completely monolithic. And with control of media, of everything they can read and access and entertainment, you get something pretty close to that.

You know, you get something pretty close to this complete uniformity of thar, complete conformity. And if you don't, you get sent to. re-education cap. Exactly. Yeah. Or you just disappear. Or you just disappear. Yeah. So what is like life right for an average citizen in terms of, let's say living in somewhere like Beijing, Shanghai? What are they allowed to do and what are they sort of not allowed to do when it comes to things like freedom of speech, expressing your

point of view, everyday things? So for starters, I would say that in general, Chinese people and culture is pretty pragmatic. So if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, If you have your first few tiers met and met pretty well because of all the affluence in China, nothing else really matters. It's materialistic. You basically are working to, you know, I mean, look at the luxury market, it's conspicuous consumption in China. You basically, in like a certain, you know, small locus of baby Beijing or Shanghai, you have countless Louis Vuitton. Like, you know, I don't know why a small area needs for Vitton stores, but there it is. And that says something, you know, about what people value and chase after. And also why the luxury brands actually kowtowtow to China a lot, Dolce and Cabana.

And recently, I think it was Versace, had to apologize because I think they had, they listed cities that they were in, or countries that they were in, and they listed China and Taiwan and Macau separately. And China said, excuse me, those are all China. So get rid of that. And they did. But life there is, you know, I mean, there's a huge middle class and people are only starting to get used to new money. They eat well, they enjoy, you know, it's a good life. I mean, a huge disparity, by the way, between the cities and not cities, huge. And that is often overlooked because everyone thinks of China as this future, but there is a huge, you know, futuristic kind of beautiful skyscrapers, but there is a huge disparity between the rural and the city folks.

But the only thing that you can't do is not criticize the government. Not, you know, there's, it used to be that there were the three T's, so you couldn't say Tiananmen, you couldn't say Tibet. And the last tea was, I can't remember now, Taiwan, sorry. And now, of course, the three T's have grown into other things that they're sensitive. For example, Winnie the Poo cannot be said or referred to because, um, see, Jim Ping, who is now leader for life, a ruler of the Communist Party, somebody had kind of pointed out that he bore a striking resemblance to Winnie the Pooh. So now all references to Winnie the Pooh on Weibo, on WeChat, anything in China is now

scrubbed, which is why if you watch the latest South Park episode, I don't want to reveal any spoilers, but Winnie the Pooh features quite a bit. They really went after China. They really did. Yeah. It reminds me of that dictator in Turkmen, I think it's Turkmenistan. Yes. He renamed all the months after his mother.

After his mother, they renamed the son after his dad, and then he gave each day of the week like a new name. It just felt like it. But you know, I mean, we joke about him and I kind of listen to you talk about it. And I mean, what we're talking about, essentially, is a country that is run by a life-appointed dictator that imprisons political dissenters, that in many cases harvest their organs for donors. There are some reports of this, that is projecting its power through spy network, through cyber warfare, through business, as we've just talked about, around the world.

It puts Uyghurs in concentration camps. All of these things are happening. And really, until about a month ago, very few people were talking about it. And I guess my question is, is that because doing business with China has been so good for what you might call the globalist elite that it was really, well, they were fine with that. They didn't have a problem until China started becoming a problem as it has been more recently. I think there are few factors. One is, I mean, China, I think Xi Jinping only gone.

his term really got extended to eternity only in 2017. So that was a more recent. I think China, the Congress that gathered in 2017 was kind of the period where it woke most people in government up to at least like, okay, they're remaining on this autocratic path. Since then, they've become more belligerent in terms of territorial disputes, claiming islands and... Well, building islands, actually.

Yeah, in the South China Sea, which has really angered. many regional countries. So Philippines, Vietnam, Singapore, are really angry about what's happening in their corner of the world because, well, they can directly see China's increasing ambitions and are very wary of that. And I think since then, you know, slowly there's been an awakening, but it was kind of remain in the political realm.

It wasn't really until, I think, like you said, Hong Kong, that many people really started paying attention to all the broader issues, there might be another reason why people were hesitant to sort of diss on China. I think it was partly a fear of being racist. You know, had it been Russia doing the same things, no qualms there to criticize Russia. Yes, Russophobia, big problem. Right, right. And it's also, it's easier for.

for Western countries, white countries to be criticizing fellow white countries, and it is to be critical about, you know, this is the problem with the rubric of seeing everything through people of color and intersectionality. By the way, are Chinese people, people of color? Asian Americans are not now, but I think... It's because they'd be well. They're honorary white people in some regards, but Chinese very much so. Right.

And by the way, Chinese state media loves to play race. card and loves to play victim. Really? They absolutely play the victim-hike culture. So if you go to school in China, you are taught from a young age through their state and forest education about the opium wars, about the 100-year humiliation, about how the West made China sell Macau and Hong Kong. And so that's why returning Hong Kong was such a big FU to the past.

So they do play up their, you know, their, you know, their, you know. humiliation at Western powers hands because they want to try to drum up patriotism. Because once they do that, I mean, think about like if you built like a OMA, a Chinese OMA, which was also a subject of another piece that I wrote for Spectator, where basically it's like a hive mind. All you need to do is just press the button of patriotism. And like the Chinese zombies will just rise and just attack and just, you know, embrace come to the same position.

And now the government has unilateral power. to basically do what they want. And what do you think is going to be the Chinese program in the coming years? Can you just see them wanting to expand their power base and get their tentacles as widely spread as possible? Yeah, and they're going, I mean, especially through technology, they, you know, if Silicon Valley does not act on principle, and I'm worried about that, it's going to get worse. We're already worried about censorship on social media platforms, but once they're in bed with

China or have Chinese investment, how are they going to act? Right. You know, and I think my biggest worry is actually AI. It's China is spending, if you look at in all the areas where China's putting money on and in AI, they're outspending the U.S. in terms of investing and developing the technology, AI companies. And what's going to happen when that technology really becomes ripe is they're going to have first dibs and the power to, you know, effectively either export their techno-surveillance

state to the rest of the world. It's interesting to me because we've had Dr. Pippa Malmgram on the show, who's a former advisor to two U.S. presidents, a good friend of us. We had Jim Rikards on the show recently talking about some of this. The more we talk to people, the more terrifying it is. And the more I kind of look at, you know, Steve Bannon is obviously very controversial figure. But I've listened to a few of his interviews about China and about the need for economic nationalism, about the need to protect America. And I'm like, well, I can see why people are going over to that side of things, because it is a really serious threat to our way of life, isn't it? It is. And I think Trump has expanded what he calls the national innovation

security base. So he's actually starting to expand the kinds of companies in which which is considering, you know, sort of preventing trade between or dealings between, or at least having more scrutiny on companies with that kind of dealings with China. Because this is really a rising concern. And apart from economic sanctions, what else do you have? Military options? I mean, as far as that goes, it's one of those things that everyone wants to kind of stay out of. And so the only choice left is really economic.

And China's playing the same game. They know that. And that's why they're using, think of all the propaganda, the way that they've really managed to, you know, infiltrate Hollywood because of just buying out Hollywood studios outright, smuggling their message into movies. And because you have buying power, you're able to sort of say, all right, you remember this movie? I think it was Dr. Strange Love. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it was a monk.

It was the character in Dr. Strange Love. was a Tibetan monk, played by, I'm really bad with actresses and actors, but Tilda Swinton again? Yeah, Tilda Swinton, yes. Eventually was moved. She played it because they couldn't have a Tibetan monk in the story because it's one of the three T's. You're not allowed to talk about Tibet and that's just a sensitive issue. So her character was written in and kind of changed, modified to appease Chinese censors. This has happened so many times. I mean, I don't know if there's like website cataloging all the ways in which Hollywood has count out to China, but there should be.

There should be a website cataloging every single company from Delta Airlines to Qantas Airlines and Marriott hotels who fired people or, you know, capitulated in the same way. Because the effect is, I mean, it's growing, like the people that are just, you know, being sort of victims of this kind of, really, it's Chinese political correctness. It's, you know, this is our orthodoxy. If you do not conform, it's, well, you're going to pay for it somehow. And there's been quite a few notable examples, quite famous examples, of Chinese celebrities who have disappeared for months on end. Exactly.

And in particular, there was one actress, I can't remember her name, but she was in quite a few Hollywood films and she just vanished. Right, right. And I had a friend of mine who was Miss World Canada. Her name is Anastasia Lin. She's off Chinese descent, and she's been very critical of the Chinese government. She actually was one of the major activists sort of bringing attention to the organ harvesting issue and also the treatment of the Falun Gong at the hands of the Chinese government. The Miss World Competition was slated to have taken place in Beijing,

and because it was there, she couldn't go. They actually canceled her passport. they banned her from the country, so she couldn't even compete in her own pageant. And the worst part was they started going after her family. That were... So that's what, you know, if you look at autocratic regimes around the world, Turkey's Erdogan, China, CCP, that's exactly what they do. I mean, say what you want about the West.

One of the things we don't do is this, like, we'll go after your family if you were a dissident. So, for example, Edward Snowden, his family is not affected. His family's not disappeared and kidnapped and tried and harmed or hit their livelihoods destroyed and they're not jailed. He's responsible for his actions only and it ends there, right? Individuals. But that's not the case. They, in China, they use this, you know, if you're a member of the Chinese diaspora,

chances are you a family there. Lucky I don't. So I can say what I want. But I couldn't if I had, you know, one or two relatives that were living in China. they would absolutely be gone just based on three articles I have written so far. It's scary. It's absolutely scary stuff. So what do you think the West and the United States particularly needs to do in response to this?

What can the West do now? I think, I mean, for, I actually was a huge supporter of the trade war as we need to make China feel the pain. economically. I know it's going to cause us pain to, but it's one of those things where if we don't use that, I don't know what else. The other thing is businesses, right? So not just the government, but really businesses need to be more aware of this and take responsibility for standing on values, not surrendering those to profit motives. There are other trading partners that we can. I know you won't have access to the Chinese market, but I don't think it's worth it. I don't think the end result is going to be worth it when all of us are sitting in Gulex.

I don't know what price these people are willing to pay, or maybe they're just trying to kick the can down the road to the next generation to deal with. But seeing how China runs its own country, if you know that that's going to be what's in store for the whole world, do we want to go there? And will we ever accept, you know, could we have a boycott? divestment kind of system from China, something like that, you know, but this needs to be talked about and not kowtowing, especially to their, you know, what they're doing with like trying to force

people, like, moray to cancel tweets and to change their minds. What South Park did, by the way, brilliant. We need more of that. In one episode, I think more people were educated about Chinese influence in Hollywood, Chinese influence everywhere. even the Uyghurs, the plight of the Uyghurs, were actually featured in a South Park cartoon. And we need more people in the entertainment industry to kind of tell these stories, you know, sound the warning bells, and assemble, I don't know, an alliance of people that just do not want to live under a world order that China controls. I was reading an article recently saying that actually our impression of China as being this

financial giant isn't strictly true. there's real significant weaknesses in their economy. I mean, is that true? And are they actually grinding to a halt economically? Yeah, numbers are hard to trust from an authoritarian country like China, right? They fudge things. And also, they're able to use their currency to sort of manipulate how things look. I would say the other thing that I read recently, which sort of supports your theory,

is that China's a severely aging population. And so by 233, the number of people that are in a certain working age range in the United States is already going to outpace the number in China. And so therefore, we don't really have that much to worry about because their economy isn't growing or is going to. It's not the economic juggernaut that we thought it was. I've heard about that too. Yeah, there's a lot of people who, I host economics and comedy festival every year. And there's a lot of people who come there. Is there anything funny about economics?

They can be. If you're prepared to laugh at the world ending, then, yeah. You should be a comedy reviewer. You would strike beer into everyone's art. Is there anything funny about economics? The dismal science, I don't know. Yeah. Well, she can be a guardian reviewer who doesn't find anything funny at all.

Just the Brian Logan of all. But anyway, a lot of people there were saying, essentially, what China has done is they've allowed, they've created essentially a fake amount of money within China, which they've then used to create massive capacity, overcapacity of steel production and other things, which they then export around the world. And there's a result of that. Businesses go out of business elsewhere around the place. And then they end up being the monopoly in that particular field. So, and coming back to this whole idea of economic nationalism, it's really, it seems like China has been unapologetically waging an economic war on the West.

And we've been like, oh, no, free trade is great. You know, as soon as they get, you know, they get their car and whatever, they'll suddenly chill out and become more democratic. And what we've seen in the last couple of years is just absolutely that is not happening. I will say that free trade, you know, if it's free trade, China wins. If it's fair trade, the United States wins. That's exactly Donald Trump's message, ironically, isn't it? Ironically.

Yeah. Are you a Trump supporter if you don't want me asking? I did not like it when he got into office. I absolutely find his personality troubling, repulsive for me personally. But I don't, I never really support candidates or, like, I don't support things that are like just, all right, I'm pro-Hillary or I'm pro-Trump. Because what if they did something that you agreed with? That, you know, what if Trump was good on, say, advancing the cause of LGBT equality? then you're going to, because you're at anti-Trump, now you have to oppose that, which we do see that a lot.

I'd love to see that tweets. That's exactly how to be tribal, right? So I've always gone by, there are things that Trump has done I like, there are things that I absolutely do not like, especially right now with what he's doing with Kurds and pulling out the military. Do not like that, but especially abandoning allies that helped us to fight ISIS. But on China, he's been actually pretty good. And I cannot imagine any other president being as strong on China as he has been rhetorically and also just in terms of policy.

I really like him to say more about Hong Kong and do more, but I'm not sure what that is. And if you can't propose a solution, then clearly all the smart people in the White House are putting their brains together to figure this out. And who knows? And what did you make of this argument that, I mean, and I say this about Russia all the time, the one advantage of a dictatorial system is you have time on your side. So they can, first of all, as you'll probably tell us better than we know, China is going to be funding election campaigns in the United States.

For sure. Right. And they can just wait for this president to go, and then they find someone who's weaker to cave to their demands. Right. And if you think of the ongoing impeachment trial, I think that will end up China's celebration. They're actually going to be really happy about Trump leaving office.

Because at the end of the day, China is a very, it's steeped in honor culture. There's this notion in Chinese culture about saving face. And Trump has no shame. And he really does not allow China to save face. He speaks ill of it. He basically really rankles China exactly where it hurts the most. And because he doesn't play by the rules and he's just abrasive. So he really annoys China on a level that's almost visceral culturally.

And, you know, the question for foreign policy experts is, is that a good thing? You know, does China behave better when we're nicer to them? But over the years, it's proven that that's not the case. We've been nice to them. We've traded with them. We allow them into the WTO. they didn't play nice, they never did. So maybe it's time for different sort of tactics.

I think that's what Trump brings to the table, at least on China, specifically. And you talked earlier about an Axis and the Allies coming back to the new Cold War. I guess the universal constant juniper called war is that both parties kind of knew that the Soviet Union was an adversary. Right. Is that where we need to get to, do you feel, with China? I think so. And I think, you know, one of the most striking things that, to me at least, was when the UN was in session and they wanted to criticize what was going on in Xinjiang, where the U.Gers were being imprisoned. And you look at all the countries that did not sign the rebuke against China. It was majority Muslim countries. Pakistan did not sign it

Many of the Gulf states did not sign it And the people that were the most vocal About the mistreatment of Uyghur Muslims Were New Zealand, Australia The United Kingdom, the United States You know, the evil west And somehow the narrative that They are the ones who are Islamophobic

You know And somehow the majority of Muslim countries Even Turkey and the Uyghurs are of Turkic descent did not stand up for them. I mean, this is like, what, are we living in this upside-down world right now, in a way? And you can see how China, because of the Belt and Road Initiative, has many countries basically by the balls

because of the sheer amount of investment they have in their countries. I mean, just today, or in the last two days, President Xi Jinping was actually in Nepal because he, you know, I think it was a $500 million investment, in Nepal. And this is a country that's, you know, where the Tibet is there and Dalai Lama got excise. And you see the welcome that they gave him. And he gave a press conference saying that if Hong, if, you know, if Hong Kong continues to happen, that there will be crushed bodies and bones. He said that in Nepal and the warm welcome that they gave him is pretty much related to the investment

and that he was bringing to this country. And with the Belt and Road Initiative, investments in Africa, now even South America that they're expanding to, who knows whose influence, who knows whose loyalty, the Chinese goodbye? It's scary. And that's why the West needs to make us stand.

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or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Ebglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglis. Before starting Epglus, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about ebbglis.com or call 1-800 lilyr-Rx or 1-800 545-979. It's funny that you bring up the idea of racism and stuff like that because as someone who's from Russia, I know this. I have a lot of

from China and Hong Kong. Like, we talk about the West being racist and whatever. You want to see what happens when Russia runs the world? You want to see what happens when China runs the world? Exactly. You want to compare those two? I'm pretty comfortable with British racism. Thank you very much.

That level is fine by me. Do you know what I'm saying? It's what Peter Boghoshin was saying about scales, right? I think yesterday in one of his talks, he talked about, okay, so you want to talk about the patriarchy. Where is, say, Saudi Arabia, patriarchy? Because we want to qualify what you mean. by we live in this, you know, in these times.

So, I mean, as we are aware of, you know, all these woke antics here, I think a sense of proportionality is in order. There is cancel culture, outreach culture, and all these, and patriarchy and rape culture in a very different scale elsewhere. And we lose proportionality when we are focused on issues here that by comparison,

are not, are just not as severe. Well, I'm guessing great culture in South Sudan is a lot worse than an American college campuses. Right, but not to say it doesn't exist. No, it would. She should always have to say that. Yeah. I understand. Yeah.

Yeah. So Jim Rickards, a previous interview, we have us actually said that a lot of American companies are starting to withdraw from China. They're going to different countries. Is that the way to deal with this? To go, okay, if you're not going to play ball, we're going to withdraw our support. Yes, absolutely. Go to Singapore, go to Indonesia.

There are a lot of other Asian democracies near China that have the rule of law that enforce intellectual property rights that play fair. Do that. The issue, obviously, is that then they won't have access to the Chinese market. So the willingness to do that is probably very low if you're going to be, you know, if you have fiduciary responsibilities to your shareholders. So I hope that that's what they do, but I can't see that being. across the board. It's just too lucrative. Well, on that happy note, Melissa, the last question

we always ask is what is the one thing that we aren't talking about as a society that we ought to be talking about? Democracy and whether or not authoritarian actually have an advantage because they are in power longer. So Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, and how that plays and how that contrast with systems that we have that we assume are good systems, liberal democracy, right? This is kind of the struggle of our time. Obviously, I grew up in Singapore, and we've had one party in power since independence in 1965. And the country went from third world or first world in my own lifetime. It's almost nation-building at its best. And it was done by having this longevity of having, if there was a tumultuous system in which the parties were changing, and it's unlikely that

could have been possible. And so one of the things we don't talk about is perhaps, you know, what are the merits of these two systems? I mean, we talk about an impending clash, this new clash of civilizations, will orders, well, what did they get right? And can we design systems, even as we cherish, you know, our liberalism and our democracy here, that can at least give us some of that? What do you mean? Can you give me an example? Well, um, So, for example, is the system that we have in Congress where, especially now exacerbated by the media cycle, where you basically have to campaign every two years, it seems, that cannot be good for, that's why our potholes are not fixed. That's why our airports suck. You know, one of the things I definitely agree with Trump was that he said that LaGuardia and New York airports were like third world countries at airports.

I mean, and then you go to places like Bangkok and they've got this sprawling, you know, glass, beautiful airports. it's around the world. When I first immigrated to the United States, it felt like a bit of a downgrade. I was like, this feels like their world country in many respects. And with long-term planning, you can really do things like urban planning, land use, you know, regulation that are just far more, they're far-sighted. They assume that people are actually going to still be there and they're going to be there in 20 years and they're going to be able to judge and select.

for the better ideas in a way that just we aren't. So are there systems, policies that can mimic that, but still retain our political freedoms and still retain our right to free speech, which I think is so, so, so important and cannot be compromised on. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show, Melissa. We'll put Melissa's Twitter and all the other details in the video and audio descriptions. Thanks for coming up. Thank you. Thank you, guys, for having it.

We will see you guys in a week from now. Take care. See you next week. You know,