TRIGGERnometry - "Victimhood is a State of Mind" - Ayishat Akanbi

Episode Date: June 21, 2020

Ayishat Akanbi is a fashion stylist, cultural commentator and artist. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin. And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our guest today is a fashion stylist and writer. Aisha Acombe, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you for having me. Oh, it is so good to have you here.

We've been waiting for this moment for a while. We've been talking about getting you on the show for ages. So glad to have you here. For anyone who doesn't already know who you are, tell us a little bit about who are you, how are you where you are. What has been the journey that brings you sitting here? Well, I'm actually a fashion stylist. And that's how most people have got to know me through the internet. And maybe around 2013-14, I started using my voice a little more on the internet.

I had a situation in my personal life where someone really close to me died. And that really changed my ideas and my outlook on the world. And I guess I was just sort of searching for answers. in really strange places. I mean, I even did the whole kind of religious route, like spent some time in like churches, trying to find dancers, spent some time, like searching through like my family, they're Muslim.

And so I spent some time trying to kind of get my head around Islam and things like that, all kinds of things, all sorts of belief systems I traveled through. And then eventually I just kind of felt like, you know, the best thing to do, is just be myself. You know, I didn't feel like I needed any sort of belief system to express my views. And so maybe in around 2018, I think this is how maybe you guys know me.

I think it was 2018. I'd recognize there was a new sort of belief system that was taking hold, you know, of a lot of my friends and a lot of the people that I was around. And even when I was kind of looking for something to believe in, if you like. I just realized that a lot of those people didn't often have self-awareness. They often weren't rooted in just, I don't know, some of the fundamental principles that I was interested in. And then I recognized this new thing, kind of taking over everywhere. And maybe some people call it wokeness. Some people call it identitarian politics. There's lots of different names for it. But I made a video. It was called, or I was interviewed, it was called the

problem with woteness. I was just speaking my mind. I didn't know anything that I was saying was potentially controversial. And yeah, here I am. And you know what? We might stick a little bit of that at the front so people can see what you're talking about. But one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, because it's fascinating to me, is you and I were having a conversation about you coming on the show. And we've been talking probably about a year now. Yeah, we have been. And we set up times and didn't quite work. And in the end, I kind of confronted you a little bit. I was like, hey, how have we not managed to make this happen?

And you were like, you know what? I've been reluctant to come on. Why is that? And my reluctance to come on, it's funny because that's the entire reason why I made the video or why I think the interview resonated with a lot of people is there's an idea now. And it's quite a prevalent idea that if you speak to someone who has the so-called wrong views, then you are wrong by adjacent.

And people... Well, that's you, sister. Well, yeah. You are now, fuck. Exactly. But it's a really silly idea to say the least, because, you know, if you're not talking to people who think differently, then you're speaking to the choir, you know? And that doesn't make sense because the world isn't made up of people who think like us.

And so I was somewhat reluctant, and then I kept thinking to myself, well, if you don't go on and talk to people, then you're not being a woman of your own principles, you know, and I will speak to anybody, anybody that's reasonable, anybody that's open to conversation or who can hear something that they disagree with without that meaning that someone is hateful, without sort of deducting that that means someone is hateful. Those are the kinds of conversations I want to have. And so when you cornered me about it, I was just like, yeah, you know what, I have to do this because, you know, there's a lot going on and we're not talking to each other. and I think that's a huge part of the problem.

The thing that I find actually really upsetting is how, if you see a person who's an ethnic minority, particularly though if they're black, the moment they come out as not having woke or liberal views, it's almost like they've betrayed their entire race. They use horrendous racist language, smear them, all the rest of it. Why is that? I think people think that if you don't share their views,

then you are somehow letting the side down. And you can only think this because they have a very narrow conception of what it means to be black or whatever identity it might be, which in itself is, you know, at least a form of prejudice if you don't want to call it anything else.

And it's harmful. And there are many perspectives and ways to view an issue. And if we are canceling out all of those voices because they are inconvenient, then we're cheating ourselves. out of, like, you know, expanding our awareness. And you said it's prejudice.

Don't you think it's a form of racism? The fact that, you know, somebody will, you know, look at somebody of a particular current and go, oh, therefore, you know, you are black, therefore you should be this, you should be that, you should be whatever else. Instead of the fact that they're a human being, which being black has, you know,

nothing to do with their politics or whatever else. Yeah, well, I guess because in this sort of ideology, if you like, you can't just be black, Being black isn't actually just a skin color. And maybe that's what I think a lot of people don't understand. Being black is innately political to these people. And what they mean by that is something I understand is, you know, if you are black in this conception, because of how other people view you, which may not always be positive,

they feel like the response to that has to be innately political or that you have to be political. That is how that you are showing up for your race, if you like. And so because they don't think it's just a skin color, they think being black means that you have to be political. It's a political statement. What do you think? I don't think being black is a political statement. No, I think, you know, it's an immutable characteristic.

You know, it could have been anything else. I don't think my race defines me in any way or any aspect of my identity, really. That's not the way that I think. Of course, being black means that, like, I guess I might have a bit more, of a vested interest in some of the issues around race and racism. But no, I don't think beyond that, that it informs much of my interests or world views. I was just going to finish this train of thought because, so there's this idea that if you are an ethnic minority, that you have to be sort of liberal, but it doesn't also take into account.

Like, for instance, my mother is from South America. Everybody can drink now. but you know and she came to this country as a first generation immigrant but like a lot of first generation immigrants she's incredibly conservative you know she's religious she's not only conservative fiscally but socially it doesn't take into account that actually a lot of first generation and ethnic minority communities are incredibly socially conservative so thinking they're going to be woke is it's just wrong isn't it yeah no it doesn't and i think it's because we have in many ways or sort of down downloaded the American discourse around race and we've imported it here. And it's not sort of like a one-size-fits-all t-shirt, you know.

But because we kind of use it that way, we're not necessarily embracing reality. Because you are right. You know, my parents are Nigerian. I grew up with my mother and she is very socially conservative. You know, that's very much, yeah, that's very much her worldview. although she votes on the left. But, you know, there's ways to even look at hip-hop, if you like, you know, as somewhat conservative in its ideals if you think about the fact that it's very much about competition.

You know, it's very much about, like, you know, consumerism, materialism. Like, it's very much, you know, you can even denigrate the poor just completely. You can just be out there and just be like, you're poor, so you're a piece of shit. You know, you can actually say that. I like the fact you said that to me as well. You chose the right target to address here. And not to say that that's what conservative people think, but it's a very pull yourself up by your bootstraps philosophy, you know,

that's quite innate in hip-hop. And so actually, you know, socially conservative ideas kind of exist in many different aspects of different, you know, black communities. So I don't even know where to go. I mean, you say you're a fashion stylist and a writer, but when I watch and observe what you put out there, I'd say you're a philosopher, if anything. That's kind.

I hope you don't think I'm overstating it, but that's definitely my feeling. Our producer is nodding over there, so I'm right, basically, is what I'm saying. You're wrong about your identity. I'm right. I get to define what you are. That's kind.

And you're a philosopher. We'll clip that. Just me telling a black woman, I get to tell you. I guess it's one of those things. I think a philosopher is one of those things you can't call yourself, you know? If you have anything like that that's in your being, I think that should be for other people to decide. I just maybe don't get out enough and I think too much.

Yeah. So you do think a lot and very, very well about these issues. So one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is something my wife and I talk about all the time, which is how much of this victimhood culture that, you know, wokeness very much has embraced and driven forward, is about people projecting their own personal. shit, their trauma, their difficulties, whatever. And I'm not even talking about like experiences that you have as an adult. I'm talking about when you're five years old. And then taking that and projecting that onto the world. And as we know from all the psychological research,

if you come into the world with a with a filter, then you see that reflecting back at you. And this is something you talk about very well. So tell us more about that. Yes. And this is why in what I try to put out in my message, if I can call it that, I very much preach for the need for self-awareness, just as much as we have social awareness. I think because we have maybe we're sort of overexposed socially, but we're not necessarily that engaged with ourselves to know where a lot of our ideas are coming from. And so I do think there is, it's not surprising that, let's say, the mental health discussion rose to the mainstream at the same time as wokeness.

You know, I think there's something to look at there. You know, a lot more people are, you know, acknowledging anxiety, depression. And it's not just about, you know, anxiety and depression can also be, can also impact the way that you see yourself, the way that you see the world. they, the reason why they can be troublesome states to be in, apart from feeling terrible, is that it can kind of, it can distort reality, you know, it can very much distort reality. And so there is so much, and also there's, there's a reason as to why the word trauma has almost become a buzzword, some people might say, you know. I'm sure if there was some, like, you know, data on, like, how much the word trauma comes

up on Twitter, I think it would be extremely high. And so when you don't have an outlet to sort of deal with your issues, to process your issues, I think some people can choose an ideology or a belief system or maybe wanting to change the world. Because I guess it's a lot easier to want to change the world than it is to look at yourself, which is why we often talk about accountability. I notice everyone is always talking about, you know, you have to be accountable. You have to be accountable. but no one ever talks about responsibility.

You know, responsibility is a bit of a dirty word. It seems to a lot of people. And again, because it's easier to demand accountability from other people than it is to take responsibility for the things that you've been through. And, you know, the problem with victimhood. And, you know, there's a very big difference between victimized and victimhood. You know, victimized is something we could have all felt at different points. But victimhood is a state.

It's a state. It's almost a philosophy within itself. it's a way of perceiving the world. And it comes with its own form of entitlement. And the funny thing is, you know, is the word narcissism gets a lot of flack on the internet. And, you know, a lot of people talk about being victims of narcissistic abuse. But part of narcissism is victimhood, you know.

And so I think that a lot of people, because they don't have the means or they don't have the, what would I call it, because I think to recognize that, you know, a lot of your ideas are driven by a certain acts that you have, you know, against the world or, you know, or gripe that you have, I think that can be quite confronting. And we live in a culture where everybody wants to feel emotionally safe constantly all the time. And so these two things, they don't marry well, you know, like being honest with yourself and wanting to feel safe. Oh, they don't marry very well at all. No.

You know, so these don't really work. And so that's why I think we're in a state where people can't truly be that honest about where a lot of their ideas are coming from. And I know this a little bit because I guess I was in it. You know, there was a point where I had swallowed a lot of these ideas, which is maybe why I'm quite passionate about speaking about them, because I know how blinding they can be, you know. And we sort of glamorize anger and rage. And the thing about anger and rage is it's blinding, you know. Like a lot of people will just.

the wrong things that they do because they were angry. I was angry. I didn't mean to punch you. You know, like, and so it's, it's blinding. And so I think anger can be maybe a, an interesting place or a productive place maybe to, to occasionally visit because it can make us productive and it can make us, it can spark ideas and creativity,

but it can't be a final resting place. And so I think when you, yeah, are swallowing ideas that, you know, it's good to be angry all the time, know, and like everything is the fault of everyone else, you know, everything that has gone wrong in your life is to do with this person. These are very seductive ideas. And when I was sort of entrenched in some of these beliefs, yeah, it was completely a distortion of reality. You know, the fact that I had worked my way and become a stylist and I guess as far as, I guess as far as any

sort of standard metric would go, I was fairly successful. Maybe you could say, you know, that doesn't mean that all my problems were gone. But, you know, I was doing well. you know, but that didn't matter. It didn't matter that I was doing well because someone else was doing better, you know, and I think this is the way a lot of people have come to, you know, conceive the world. And do you think this identity

or this ideology is addictive? Yes, I think it can be addictive, yes, because it's comfortable, it's what you know. I don't think, I don't necessarily, I try not to demonize it too much, and that's hard, you know, because it's annoying, you know, it can be very annoying,

but I have to remember that, you know, I've been in a similar state. I would say I wasn't so combative when I was there because that's just not my personality. I didn't think all disagreement meant hate. However, it can be addictive because built into the ideology, if you like, of victimhood is innocence.

If you're a victim, then you're innocent. If you're a victim, then you're innately virtuous. And so that is, and if you're a victim, then everyone else is the oppressor and everybody else is the aggressor. So it's a state that's quite seductive because it's one where people don't ever truly have to look at themselves. And as we may know, that looking at yourselves is hard. And you mentioned the word of being oppressed.

And you're someone who takes a lot of care when you use words and when you think about words. And you talk a lot about oppression versus discrimination. Just break that down for us. Yeah. I mean, I've always paid attention to the language that I use. And for one, because, you know, even if I had a platform of just 100 people, that's still 100 people who were listening to me who could potentially be influenced. And if you care about people who you may deem vulnerable or the most vulnerable, I think how

you speak to them and what you allow them to believe of themselves and their reality is very important. And so for me, I've always wondered, you know, like, is what I have faced, you know, oppression or is it discrimination? Because the two don't seem to be the same to me. discrimination seems to be something that anybody could face for any reason, you know. Probably have. And yeah, definitely.

You know, if you're someone who's overweight, if you've got ginger hair, like when I was in school, like those guys just got ripped on all the time. Yeah, that's fair enough. Yeah, you know, but anything, if you've got acne, you know, if you're considered to be unattractive, all of these kind of things can allow you to be discriminated against your voice, how you speak, your accent, all these sorts of things. And so, and I have, you know, I've definitely had. had people, especially when I was in school. I grew up in Southampton. My school was predominantly

white. There weren't many black people there. And so there were people who, let's say, made fun of my hair. I'm like, oh, you've got trolls hair. And there were people who, you know, made fun of like my features and stuff like that because they were different. And at the time, of course, it was hurtful. But it wasn't, if I'm on, it's truly different to anything that the Ginger Kid, you know, wasn't going through. And I would call that discrimination. I wouldn't call that oppression. I think if you can go online and you can call out your government and you can say anything about white men and you can say anything about any people with very little repercussion. I think that might be the evidence that, you know, you might not be oppressed.

But you make that point and look, it's a very, I mean, it's a very contentious issue to get into it, but we're going to have to get into it, which is, you know, you mentioned you can say whatever you want about white men. And let's be honest, you can say things about, certain groups of people that you can't say that about others. Is that sustainable? No, I don't think it makes sense to talk about people in a way that you wouldn't accept yourself because human psychology means for every action, there is a reaction and there's a consequence.

So if people feel like one group is allowed to get away with a certain type of behavior that another one isn't, that's not going to work well. It's not at all because not everybody is right. I mean, not everybody is versed in racial history or racial politics. Not everybody cares. We can't make everybody care. So no matter what your justification is for why you believe it's okay to completely denigrate an entire demographic, there will be a consequence to that. So if you want to do it, go for it.

But what I would ask is it's not constructive. And if you want to be constructive and helpful for the people that you wish to help, this might be a way that you are completely sort of being self-defeating there. Wow, so you're saying hashtag kill old white men isn't constructive. You know, it might not be the best PR camp. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality,

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ExpressVPN.com slash trigger and then you'll be able to hide from everybody the fact that you watch this show. And the thing that I worry about when they do things like that, or, you know, someone tweets, oh, it's just another old white man, is essentially you're dividing the races. You're creating a divide between the races.

So there are going to be people who look at that and go, well, you know what, I'm not going to listen to what you say anymore because I'm white, therefore I'm wrong. And then you've got a small, very toxic minority who look at that, rub their hands with a glee and go, we can create division here. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I think people underestimate how much people want to be heard and how much people want to belong.

It's part of the reason why we have this ideology that is so sort of dominant in the mainstream right now. Because to not be a part of that is to isolate yourself and potentially leave yourself open to accusations of fascism, racism, all of the phobias. and so when you are telling people that they can't speak because of their skin color or when you're speaking about someone in a way that you would no way have within yourself, you don't recognize that you also are radicalizing people. You're pushing people over to a certain side because if people no longer feel, let's say that they have a voice on the left and people don't want to listen to them on the left, they will go somewhere else.

I mean, the argument to that is, well, I guess if they could, so easily besweighed than they were never true leftists. And I don't think people are truly appreciating human psychology there. You know, we want to be heard. But it's also, I mean, you say it's so easy, if they so easily move to the left, it's not easy. It's taken some people 10 years to make the journey from being, oh, I'm super lefty to, oh, wait, shit, like on this particular issue, I'm just not wanted. I mean, look at J. K. Rowling right now, right? Little mislems. lefty all the time, you know, all the right opinions, you know, all the, all the right causes supporting all the stuff. There's one issue. And this is what I've been talking about for some

time. They will always find a way in which you don't fit. And so that journey, it's not been like, oh, this, you know, it's so easy to get people to move. It takes a hell of a lot of badgering and battering and, you know, offending and whatever to get people to make that transition. And I see that, I think we see that happening right now. A lot of people, you know, with Jake your own is a good example. A lot of people are going to be on her side now in a way that they might not have been before because you're forcing them to make a choice between what they know to be true and what they think is the right thing.

Am I? No, no, you're right there. Maybe what I meant is it's so easy as I meet so many more young people who almost see being on the right as like quite a counterculture thing to do, you know, which is interesting because, you know, like conservatism, you know, sort of symbolizes tradition and, you know, and keeping the order. So it's not necessarily the most rock star thing to do, you know, but a lot of young people are sort of seeing it that way now.

And so I think maybe for them it may be easier. In J.K. Rowling's case, yeah, I think people do, people who believe they have the good politics, people who believe they are the good people, they are way too quick to assume nefarious intention to anybody that doesn't share their beliefs. And it's going to be a downfall. It's not constructive. And it's manipulative, I think. I think it's very manipulative to call all disagreement hate.

You know, there used to be a time where we would acknowledge and accept that, let's say, if you were religious, you probably didn't really believe in homosexuality. You know, you didn't believe that those people had a wrong. right to marry. You disagreed with them, but it necessarily think they hated you. You just thought, well, this is their religion, this is their belief, you know, but we can't seem to do that anymore. You know, the gender issue and the transgender discourse mainstream at the moment is complicated, for some might say, and some might say it's quite simple, you know, but however, the idea that sex and gender, sex and gender are separate is something, I think, majority people probably

still believe in, you know, because if you don't spend your time on Twitter and if you haven't got like, you know, a gender studies degree and if you, you know, aren't sort of reading a lot of the contemporary gender text, then you probably will think this. And so to assume that anybody who wants to fight for that category is hateful, well, then, you know, you're going to be thinking about, that's a lot of black people, you know, like, that's a lot of Muslim people. You know, that's a lot of people that we also, on one breath, say that we want to help and that we should protect, you know. And so I think, especially on that issue, as it is very contentious, people have to start listening to each other. And I think as long as you are accusing each other and calling people names and trying to smear reputations, it's not conducive to the movement.

it's not conducive to the trans children that you believe are vulnerable. I don't think it's just not productive. That's what I deal with. I don't necessarily often care necessarily too much about whether it's right or wrong because that can be subjective to lots of different people,

but what's constructive? And I don't think, as we can quite clearly see, everything that's been happening in that area has been very constructive. But there's also these people, and I've seen them myself and they're people in my industry who have, for one of a better term,

jumped on this debate made it more toxic in order just to push their own brand what they do increase their followers and so on and so forth Yeah And how big an effect do you think that has Do you think it's just one voice

Or do you think that has a real sizable impact? What's that? So like people jumping on The bandwagon of a movement Yeah and then going you know Silence is violence You know as people going you know like all white people If you don't you know Support every aspect of Black Lives Matter

you are part of the problem. Yeah, again, this is not grounded in reality to me. You know, there are a myriad of issues that we are silent on. So if we're going to say silence is violence, then let's just also keep that message and narrative consistent and acknowledge that we're all violent then. You know, because there are lots of things that we are silent on that affect a lot of people, even black and brown people.

There was a brilliant tweet the other day. Some people came up with the idea that silence is consent and they made t-shirts. Silence is consent and someone just retweeted it and went, you might want to rethink this. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, okay, yeah, they didn't think that one for it. So yes, I think, okay, so the thing that's quite different now is that

what we post on social media can have a real life impact in our real lives, you know, offline. And so more than ever, I think people are incentivized you want to appear to be good people. I mean, I guess, broadly speaking, we all want to be good people. However, being an honest person is something that some people value or prioritize on the same level. And I think people who want to be good people and honest people, they're always going to have some tension there. You know, because if you're honest with yourself, you can't always be good for everyone else. And so people jumping on the bandwagon of movements, ideas,

theories that they don't understand, don't know what they've rooted in, this is quite destructive because for one of a better word, you don't know what you're talking about, literally. You don't actually know what you're talking about. You don't know where these ideas come from. You don't know what the impact of these ideas are on people because you're not necessarily from that community. You're not someone who's ever had these issues. Let's say with a lot of the trans discussion, a lot of the people that we would say are hateful, and I don't necessarily think that I think hate is a word that we dish out too easily.

And again, I think we do it quite manipulatively because once you brand someone is hateful, then you don't have to listen to them anymore, you know, and you sort of, and you spread that idea. But a lot of the people who, let's say, have questions, if you like, about mainstream, let's say, transgender discussion. And I say mainstream, and I really want to single that out

because that's not how every trans person feels. That's not the way that every trans person is viewing that discussion. But a lot of those women that we're calling hateful themselves had experienced gender dysphoria, you know? And it's from that space that they're speaking from, you know, like someone like me who has definitely at some points swallowed a little bit of woke ideology or at least this ideology that very much sees the world in this black and white sense. the reason why I am critical of it, you know, and ask us to reconsider those ideas is because I've had them and I've noticed how destructive they were to me, how exhausting they were, how much I just had an inability to truly look at myself in those moments. And the only person who doesn't benefit from that is me.

And so I think that, yeah, I know, that was a very long... No, no, but what you're basically saying, if I'm hearing it correctly, is being woke is bad for your own mental health and well-being. I think it is bad for your own mental health and well-being because we have to be able to embrace the grey because a lot of life exists in the grey. You know, if we want to say that everybody who doesn't agree with us is hateful, then we have to get rid of many of our own family members,

you know, many of the children that we're going to bring being into the world. It's just not practical or realistic. See, I can tell you, fully integrated into Britain because your slogan is embrace the gray. Yeah, exactly that, exactly that. But look, let me, you mentioned, I mean, you keep making this point over and over about constructive and unconstructive, helpful and unhelpful. So with that filter on, what do you make of the current protest that we're seeing

and the Black Lives Matter organization as it's impacting the world right now? I understand why people want to protest. And I think if people want to protest for whatever they believe in, they should always have the right to do that. Do you have the right to pressure people into doing that? I don't think so. If people don't want to do that, does that say something innately about their morality? I do not think so.

It's very likely that a lot of us don't necessarily know in Britain, let's say, know, let's say, the plight of a, you know, a typical Pakistani woman in her village, you know, and us not knowing her plight, does that reflect, you know, our morality? I don't think so, or the fact that we're not speaking for her issues, I don't think so. People can protest when it comes to the rioting aspects which some people justify. Again, I come back to, you know, constructive. right now we are still in the middle of a pandemic and we're saying that, you know, black and brown people

are more susceptible to dying as a result of this and people are mass gathering when before we were saying that, you know, we're not ready to go back to work and we were saying all of these things. It just seems to, again, it's not consistent. And I think, you know, let's say with the writing, a lot of people, a lot of people's businesses who are minorities, they've lost their businesses. don't see how that can be beneficial to them.

I think if we acknowledge that there is a problem with the American police in terms of brutality, which actually does affect people of all races, and if there's a disproportionate, let's say, a disproportionate level of violence against black men, having young black men come face to face with the police, you know, because of the riots, knowing that that they use brute force. Again, I don't know if that is constructive. Protest, it's going to happen, especially when we are not necessarily sure of all of the facts, you know, and when we are more grounded in, let's say, narrative than concrete reality.

And even when we are, you know, grounded in reality, people want to protest, that's just going to happen. But I think the way to do it, there is a way to do it. And I think there's a way to do it that can also be sort of undermining of your overall goals. And why do you think it is with the Black Lives Matter movement? People, we all agree that, of course, Black Lives Matter, of course they do. But the Black Lives Matter movement and the organisation is very, very political. Now, someone who comes from a country where I've seen socialism rise and friends. fail in the most awful way possible, I read some of what they say, and I'm not down with it.

Really? You don't want to abolish the police, man. You know, why is it that the moment I say that, I'm going to go to say to Anton, fucking cut that bit immediately. But why is that? That you can support Black Lives Matter, but the actual political organisation, if you criticize it, you feel like you're done. Because people have made Black Lives Matter synonymous with being black or black people. And people have almost framed it as if you want to not be a racist, then you can only do it through this filter. You can only do it through, let's say, the theory of anti-racism or through Black Lives Matter. That's not true.

You know, like a lot of us can not be racist, you know, like, you know, I'm sure you guys have managed to get here today, you know, without necessarily perpetuating any racism. You know, and a lot of us can do this without necessarily having to embrace an organization that might be counter to a lot of the things that we value. And that's not necessarily, again, you know, we can't use racism like a paracetamol and put it on everything. You know, we can't do that. It doesn't work, you know. And so it's just not the case, even if we want it to be that every, you know, that

everybody who doesn't agree with a certain way of doing things is doing it because they think that you're an inferior race. But yeah, I think because, you know, Black Lives Matter is huge, it's global. I think we just genuinely think that this is the only way that you can support black lives. This is the only way that you cannot be racist. Again, I think it comes back to the fact that this ideology or this world view, if you want to call it, that is very black and white, you know, excuse the pun. But yeah, I think that's why. Do you support Black Clos Matter? I, well, not necessarily in any sort of meaningful senses. And I'm not tweeting about it. I'm not, let's say, hashtagging it on my Instagram. I didn't post a Black Box,

although I guess a Black Box wasn't about Black Lives Matter. I think we learned. I support black people and I support people being honest and I support people being grounded in rationality and facts. I don't support people putting fear into people who, into people's lives who are already vulnerable for whatever means. I support black people and there's many ways that I can do that. I support all people actually, but I can support people through means that are not that. That doesn't work for me. See, so let's take what you've just said, which I think is an eminently sensible,

reasonable, sane, balance statement. If you were to, I mean, you might get in trouble just for saying it here. You might. But if we all know that if I, I would tell Francis was to go on the radio tomorrow on the TV tomorrow and make that exact statement, I support black,

I support all people actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you look at him sweating right now. Yeah, well, it doesn't help the voice. mate. Yeah, yeah. I support all people, actually, mate, just to let you know. You know, and you say, well, I don't necessarily, like, you're quite careful about exactly what you think, and which I think is how all human beings ought to be, right?

You don't just, you know, bend the knee and go for whatever is that's being shoved down your throat. You think, well, let's look at the website. Let's look at what the statements are. Let's say, oh, do what they want to demolish the nuclear family. Maybe that's not for me. They want to get rid of the police. Maybe that's not for me.

They want to abolish capitalism. You know, maybe that's not like, you take all this things and you go, well, on balance, I don't support this organization, but I support black people. And actually, I want all people to, you know, why is it that for, you know, for one of us to say that, you know, it's over, if you like. Because, well, you know, we don't know. I might get in trouble for that. So I guess we'll wait and see.

My real question is, why should any of us get in trouble for that? Because again, we have a very simplistic understanding of human beings and this is something that that worldview very much encourages. And so we do this thing called mind reading. And so what we hear, so you might say, well, I support black people. However, I don't support the aims that are listed in the Black Lives Matter sort of, yeah, whatever. Manifesto or whatever, yeah. I don't support their manifesto. What they hear is I don't want black people to live.

You know, like, you know, we're hearing different things, I think. People don't necessarily listen to language because we think that we understand who people are. You know, this is, you must be that person if you don't believe this. Again, it's just a very simplistic view of human beings because they have a very simplistic understanding of themselves. If you had a complicated understanding of yourself and if you knew, the grey that exists within you and if you knew that you had the ability to let's say understand an idea without necessarily and maybe even so if you knew you had the ability to understand an idea but that doesn't mean that you condone an idea if they knew that then they wouldn't necessarily

think that nobody else had the capacity to do such a thing right so you're saying really it's the simplicity of their thinking that makes them think that other people think in such a It's a projection. It's a projection. I haven't thought about it like that. Because any, you know, the inability to accept complication, I think is the inability to accept it within yourself. Yeah. Or complexity, rather.

I mean, and the thing that I find troubling about all of these movements is the performative morality aspect of them. Like, just going on my Instagram, the number of white middle class people who've bought... I can't watch it. I can't bear it. They can't. They can't. Who find like 10 books on race? This is everything that I'm learning today on race.

You're like, who is this for? Who is this for, these six Instagram stories? And it's painful. It's painful to watch. And honestly, ever since this has started, I go on social media, I replied to people, I post if I need to, I don't scroll. I don't look. I can't bear to.

And the thing is, I don't hold, I mean, it's not that I'm necessarily, well, I'm frustrated with people. I'm not angry at people necessarily because they're doing what they're told. because if you don't do this, then you are a racist. You know, if you don't do this, then you want me to die. Come on, mate, get on your knees, mate. Get on your knees, mate. Come on.

This is what the viewers of Trigonometry want to see. And so because people have brought into that idea, this is what they think they need to do. And I can't bear it because any sort of person of my orientation just finds it completely condescending. And, you know, but it's also sad for those individuals because you can't actually win. You can buy the books. You can do all of this.

But as soon as you put one foot out of line, you know, they're going to attack you. And they'll do it mercilessly, you know, because it's not about revolution or restructure or anything like that. It's often just about revenge, you know. And so you can read all the books that you like, you know. It's not going to change, you know, you're a mutable character. characteristics as far as people who are committed to seeing the world in a certain way are concerned. So that's why it saddens me as well, because I get it, you know, I'm sure it's well intended. And I'm sure part of it is, you know, let's say reputation control, you know, damage limitation.

But I'm sure, you know, it's coming from a place where, you know, this is what I've been told to do. So this is what I should do. But again, the problem with the statement, listen to all black people or listen to black people, is the suggestion that all black people think the same. Because what happens if you listen to, let's say, you read one book, and this book says something else. Then where are you? What do you do now? This book says something completely different about how to counter racism or how to be as a white person in this fight against racism. there is no general consensus, you know, when it comes to a lot of these ideas. There isn't. I disagree with a lot of my black friends. I disagree with a lot of my white friends. And that's the way it should be. The goal, I hope, is that we can disagree respectfully and that we can maybe ask each other, why do you feel that way? You know, rather than saying, like, you feel this way because of this. I mean, it doesn't take much to ask, why do you feel that?

way you know why do you have this stance or you know what brought you to this stance you know that's not hard to do it's interesting to me talk about this idea of listening to black people I don't I don't hear many people like you on my television I'm not that I watch much television but you know you see the the clips that go do the rounds on social media you see how these come you know I've been on TV a number of times talking about some of these issues a little bit with with with on the other side of me there's people who you don't They don't sound like you.

They don't say what you say. They have a very different view. And that view seems to be the only view that a black person gets to have on TV. You know, you're either, you know, let's be honest, a race beta or you're not there. Every now and again, you get somebody coming on. But broadly speaking, that is. So when we talk about listening to Black people, why aren't they listening to you? Well, because...

Why do they have to go on YouTube and watch you hear instead of seeing you on their TV screens? Because you've got a very interesting... Right. We need the views. Well, they call people with my view tokens, or they say that it's a privileged view to have, or they say that, you know, this view doesn't represent X, Y, Z, you know, that she doesn't speak for us. You know, I don't actually speak for you. I speak for myself, but, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of people who also have a similar idea.

And there's going to be, of course, like subtle differences in things. Yeah, it's because it's politically incorrect to have a person like me on the show because I don't know. I mean, for one, there is a big, there is a war on reason, you know, and there is a war on what I would call common sense. You know, everything I'm saying I don't think is necessarily profound. I am saying that you have to treat people how you wish to be treated. You know, 101, we teach toddlers this. but, you know, I guess this view doesn't shake as many people up, you know, and I guess whether it's about ratings or whether it's about pushing a certain narrative, for whatever reason,

they want to make people believe that people like me don't exist. And if we do exist, that we, you know, we must be Tories or we must be privileged, both of which I am not, or at least I did not grow up, you know, with a silver stream. Coming over to the right. No, no, no. I mean, I didn't grow up with a silver spoon is what I mean. I was just messing with it. And so, yeah, I mean, considering, you know, a lot of people would like to say, you know,

black people aren't a monolith, you know, like this is a slogan. One of the slogans I hear often. But as soon as you act like you're not a monolith, then, you know, they quite quickly remind you why you should be. So it's a very confused. way of seeing the world. I think if people have, I think if a lot of mainstream news channels have people

on who are saying the opposite to what I'm saying, then it looks like they are doing the work, you know, as they're told to do. Someone like me, I think they don't think is representative. It's interesting that you say that. One of the phrases that I keep

hearing, and I don't know why it makes me feel uneasy is the words be an ally. as if we're in this perpetual war. Yeah. And maybe that's my white privilege that I've never seen this war happen. Yeah.

Where does that come from? Because I guess we, a lot of people do feel like, you know, existing is a battlefield, you know? You very much here sometimes people say, you know, I've had white people say to me, you know, Aisha as a black woman, I'm sure, you know, you just waking up is like, you know, a revolutionary act. Sorry?

Really? You know, I woke up with, you know, with ease, my alarm clock, just like anybody else. I wouldn't have called it revolutionary. However, you know, there is this idea, and he says it to me trying to be complimentary and bless him. You know, I think he's sweet. He's just talking to the wrong person. You know, I don't see it as complimentary, but I understand, you know, his intention. And so when people are convinced that they are.

are living on a battlefield for whatever reason, because we can all, we can all whip ourselves up into any false state of reality that we like. Well, then yeah, I guess, you know, the idea of having allies rather than friends, you know, is, is more appealing. I don't need an ally, personally. I don't want an ally. I'd like to talk to people. I like connections with people, acquaintances, associates, friends. I don't know. what an ally is. An ally to me seems to be someone who has to pander to everything I say because I'm black. That seems condescending. I don't want that. And also my view doesn't represent what every black person thinks. I don't want that. If you're a friend or if you're an associate or someone that

I can share a connection with, surely that's enough. I don't need you to fight my battles. There's nothing you can do that's going to liberate me. Talk to your nan if you want or don't. You know, I really don't care. I don't, you know, it's almost, you know, it's people have a democratic right to dislike me, you know, if you want, you know, even for my race if you want. You don't have a right to obstruct me, you know, and that's what I care about, you know, but most people think that their cultures are superior, you know. Most people feel, you know, more important than the next person. I guess there's a part of living where we may have to, you know, which is why maybe we won't go into. to the fire, you know, like to save someone so we can save ourselves. I don't know. I just, I've

never felt the need for an ally. Every time that someone has tried to be an ally to me, I've just felt incredibly patronized. And it's okay because I get it. You know, I get that you're coming from a place where, for one, you've been told to come from and also that you want to help, but to want to help is to assume that being black is a disadvantage to me, or is to assume that being black worse as a disability to me, you know, and I find those ideas, again, troublesome to say the least. So how do we make this better? That's a shitty question. No, I mean, it's a good question because maybe I don't quite...

Exactly. Maybe I don't quite know how to answer it, but I'll try to answer it. I think we need courage, you know? I think we need integrity. These are words I don't see thrown around too much. I see the word ally a lot, you know. I see the word good person. I see the right side of history.

You know, I see those kind of things in the digital arena. But I think we need to be courageous. We need to have principles, not just beliefs, you know, because I think there's a difference between principles and beliefs. You can believe something because it's trendy to. But if you have a principle, let's say, to a principle of fairness, let's say. If you have a principle of fairness, that sort of determines how you speak to people. That determines what you won't do, even though it's popular to, you know.

And so I think we need to develop principles, not just beliefs, because beliefs change with the wind, you know. They're fads most of the time, ideological fads. But you don't fall into these fads when you have principles. I think we need to be able to trust ourselves to some degree. I think we all should be more curious and interested in each other. I think we shouldn't assign ill intent to everybody. I think that's quite paranoid.

I think it's self-important because I think if you're living in the real world, do you understand that most people are indifferent to your existence? You know, it's not about hating you. And if most people even understood how much most of us, like, hate ourselves to whatever degree, you know, we don't have time, you know, to hate someone else for the most part. We might have some stereotypes, you know. There are stereotypes that we all have about each other. And we can diminish those when we speak to one another.

So we have to speak to one another. You know, we can't afford to see every conversation that is, let's say, passionate or difficult as emotional labor. Life is emotional labor. You know, existing is emotional labor to some capacity. And if these things matter to you, then talk to people. That's all we have. And I think this is an awful question as well.

I feel the things are getting worse. I don't. And that's really sad for me because I grew up in South London and I saw things getting better. I saw people becoming more tolerant, becoming more open. It feels we've taken a regressive step back.

Because let's just be clear, when you were growing up, people were properly racist. Yeah, they were properly racist. For instance, I grew up in a part of South London. The pub down the road for me was a BMP pub. And England flag flying all the time. My family, cousins who came over from Venezuela, racially abused, called the P word,

all the rest of it. And I saw London and society as a whole get better, not get perfect, but get better. Do you think we're at real risk of going back to that place or maybe a different place, which is equally worse? I relate to you when you say that things are getting worse. And I think if we spend enough time online, it can be very despairing and very demoralizing and isolating. And that's one of the reasons as to why I think this movement, deserves a lot of critical analysis and interrogation, because if they believe that they are speaking for the minorities, I don't believe that they are. I think they're speaking for an ideology,

you know, because when a black, brown person, gay person, trans person doesn't subscribe to these ideas, then, you know, you call them fascists. You know, so this is a movement that is made a lot of people feel extremely alienated. And I think there are consequences to that alienation. And so maybe it's one of these cases where it has to get worse before it gets better. I don't know if it's sustainable to build a world view on things that aren't necessarily true, or at least not grounded in facts. but then you know when I when I meet someone who isn't on Twitter you know I do I do sometimes you know see that glimmer of hope yeah because yeah but you know but the problem is is that it's very influential you know like I have black and mixed friends from Southampton who again they know nothing about race nothing at all they've they are let's say you know fairly working class like they get along with everybody they they they they they

They date anybody of any race, you know, and I'm seeing some of them on Instagram, you know, just when I, because like I said, I'm not scrolling. But, you know, I'll go and to check a message and then I'll see, like, someone from Southampton talking about every reason why she is oppressed now, you know. And I, and she never felt that way before, you know, she never saw herself like that. and I don't know if her now seeing herself through such a lens, I don't know what that does for her, you know, and that's my real issue with this, you know. I think life is complicated and tough enough, and we are asking people to essentially view themselves

through the lens of people that you are convinced dislike them. What about the argument, which some people might make? It applies less in your case, because if this person is black, you're black, then presumably you would be able to talk about these issues before. But like if a white person, let's say, was to say, well, you know, I have a black friend and, you know, he didn't used to think this way. And now he does. A lot of people might say, well, actually, he did think that way. He was just not prepared to talk about it. Because what has happened is the Black Lives Matter movement has allowed a voice for people who've otherwise not been able to speak. Well, yes, I think anybody who is a minority within a majority, I think there are quite natural things that you could feel, you know, and this could work anywhere in the world. you know, so there are genuine feelings, I think, of maybe sometimes not feeling like

you belong and not feeling like, and maybe, you know, some feelings of inferiority that you've internalized through media portrayals and all of these kinds of things. I think those things are real. However, you know, let's say a movement might like Black Lives Matter might might articulate, let's say, some of these things that you felt and didn't know how to put words to, but maybe what's not necessarily there is that, like, everybody is against you, you know, and, like, everybody who doesn't understand your experience, it doesn't understand from a place of racism, as opposed to we are all occupying different realities, you know. So let's say, if your worldview is completely comprised of everything you've experienced, why is it

hard to understand that someone else's is, you know? And I think once we kind of can understand that we are all occupying this world in very different ways, I think that can help. It doesn't have to, just because someone doesn't understand everything about you and how could they? You know, we don't even understand everything about ourselves, you know, that doesn't mean that like they are gunning for your downfall, you know? And I think again, like, teaching people these things to people that you guys deem vulnerable, I think, I think is irresponsible. Do you think we're quite patronising the way we see ethnic minorities in this country

in the sense that, you know, that how we, you know, we can't say this because, you know, you've got to protect them or whatever else. Do you see where I'm going with this? Yeah, yeah. And I sometimes... To your own cancellation, mate, that's where you're fucking going, mate. But I just sometimes see the way that people, people to, you know, discuss these issues and, you know, oh, you can't say it like this.

You've got to now say it like this. And it's like they're an adult. They're intelligent. They can decide on their own merits whether they agree or disagree. Yeah. Why do you feel that you have to protect people? Yeah, because I guess they don't recognize the difference between compassion and pity, you know. And I think a lot of people think compassion is pit.

No, they've mistaken their pity for compassion. And so when you pity someone, you kind of innately. see them as like below you to some degree you know lesser intelligence and you know um a bit childlike you know i think they they i think the the trope is like the noble savage you know they're not they're not able to think for themselves we must protect them um and it's not something that i know is um all english or white people doing it's people who are tethered to the idea of what it means to be a good person or what it means to be an ally um and that's why we have to be careful.

Anybody, let's say, who, you know, if you're committed to seeing your life as a battlefield, go for it. But you have to be careful that when you're asking for allyship, you're not asking people to pity you, you know, and to treat you like a child and to tread on eggshells around you. Because nobody who, if someone doesn't feel like they can be honest with you, they don't respect you very much. know that in myself. I mean, I try to respect everyone, you know, a base sort of universal level.

However, the people that I think are most intelligent are the people that I don't tread on eggshells around, you know, and, you know, more and more I can see people are inviting in a world view where they're asking for that, you know, and it's not the same as being thoughtful. It's not empathy. You know, empathy isn't pandering to your worldview. You know, empathy is being able to understand where you might be coming from. So yeah, I do find it incredibly patronizing, but then many people don't. But what I would say to a lot of people is read the room, you know, like in the sense of I think if you speak to someone, you can see who needs this sort of protection and who doesn't. But again, because people are different, it's not a one-size

fits all. So what one black person may enjoy and feel is like, you know, allyship or solidarity, another person just sees us entirely condescending. Asia, I mean, we could talk for hours. And you talk about the need for courage and clarity on this stuff. I want to acknowledge you for being courageous and coming on the show. Thank you. And being very clear about a lot of the stuff. And life is complicated, man.

Yeah, life is complicated. And we shouldn't undermine that to promote a narrative. Because if we're doing that, I just think we're harming the people that we claim to want to help. We need them to be able to embrace the grey and because we need them to be able to embrace that within themselves or at least at least acknowledge it's there. Embrace the grey. Well, we've got one final question for you. And it's a question we always finishes with, which is what is the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? Maybe we're not talking about how easy it is to become the thing that we dislike and how sometimes the thing that

we strongly dislike in other people is an unchecked part of ourselves. So maybe we should be talking about our own capacity for destruction. That seems very apt at the moment. Yeah, it does. What's a neat show? When you're fighting monsters? Those who fights monsters should see to it that they do not become monsters themselves. For when you stare into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you. All right, mate, not need to fucking show off. There we go. Aisha, where can people follow you? My Twitter or my Instagram, uh, that's, uh, my name Aisha. underscore a can be that's a y-i-s-h-h-a-t underscore akamby a k-a-n-n-b-i and you're working on a book yes i am um so yeah well we'll get you back on to talk about it when you've got it out yeah thank you very much for

watching and listening we'll see you very very soon with another interview or a live stream absolutely if we don't get cancelled and thrown into the river see you soon guys