TRIGGERnometry - We Went to America - This Is What We Saw

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Konstantin and Francis discuss their recent trip to America, give their thoughts on Trump's new administration after a couple of months in office and what his approach could mean for the world. SPONSOR. Augusta Precious Metals: Protect Your Retirement with Physical Gold. Rated #1 https://bit.ly/triggergold Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Substack! https://triggernometry.substack.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Shop Merch here - https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. 00:00 Introduction 03:15 These People Really Don't Like Europe 09:41 Trump's Approach With Tariffs 16:31 A Lot Of Americans Are Really Hurting 21:40 Deportations Are Needed 26:50 The Left Destroyed Language 29:50 Would You Attend A Protest In A Country You're Visiting? 37:35 Bad Immigration Needs To End 38:38 How Trump Has Dealt With Ukraine and Israel/Palestine 55:39 It's Time For The UK To Wake Up Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Oh, these people, they really, really, really do not like Europe. I wouldn't call it antagonism, but certainly... Why not? It is antagonism. One of the reasons America is so great is that there is a legal system that allows people recourse to appeal and so on. If the story is true, this is a human rights travesty. Let's call it what it is. It's a travesty. But if it's not, then we're all being gaslit and manipulated.

And the worst thing is... We don't know which one of those is right. It seems to me that there isn't any logical reason why the invasion wouldn't be repeated, and then the entire world wouldn't find itself right here again. It's a story about somebody being put in a police cell because of complaints on a parent's WhatsApp group. What's happening?

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Ordering fish and chips so often, they might start wrapping me in paper. I'm traveling with my Wells Fargo autographed journey card, so I earn rewards wherever I book. travel, five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Imagine getting rewarded for eating a toad in the hole. Wait, what is a toad in a hole? Visit wellsfargo.com slash autograph journey. Terms apply. Francis, we have been in the U.S. for two weeks. Now we're recorded about 16 episodes and 14 days, intense. And we have learned a lot. We have learned a lot. We have had what I like to think is a little bit of a wake-up call when it comes to America. Because last time we came here,

talking for myself, I was like, I understand everything about this country. Turns out, I was a little bit wrong. Well, I think one of the things that happened with the election of President Trump is that a lot of people projected their own concerns and their own things onto him. And of course, he, like any good politician, like any effective politician, he would have encourage that. So the people who were concerned about runaway wokeness thought that, you know, that's what he's going to deal with. And he has. The people who are concerned about the size of government thought that's what he would do with and deal with, and that's what he's doing. The people who were concerned about illegal immigration, which is a lot of people, thought

that that's what he'd deal with, and he is dealing with it. But also, he's also doing quite a lot of things that he never talked about on the campaign trail. All of this stuff about Canada and Greenland and the Panama Canal, etc. I don't remember that being an issue. No. It was discussed. Another interesting thing that's happening is we had a lot of conversations with people behind the scenes, not even on camera particularly, about the rise in the impact of

the religious aspect of the right. And we hosted some conversations on camera in which that was also discussed. But I think the main question that a lot of people don't know the answer to is there's quite a lot of stuff that the Trump administration is doing that most people would agree with, like their domestic policies and a lot of things, like dealing with mass illegal immigration, closing the border. Tariffs are something that people kind of thought that he would do, maybe not to the same extent.

But I think the big question is, what is his overall posture towards the world? why is he talking so much about these territories near the United States and what he wants to do about that and also how he's going to deal with Ukraine, how he's going to deal with Israel, how he's going to deal with Iran. And this is the real thing that I don't think anyone expected to be the way it has been, how is he going to deal with Europe?

Because we have seen quite a lot of things coming out of the Trump administration. With J.D. Vance, those leaked signal messages etc. where you go, oh, these people, they really, really, really do not like Europe. And the way they talk about Europe is kind of similar in a way to an ex-girlfriend talking about a boyfriend at one point who let her down and it is sneering and it is contemptuous. And we saw that in J.D. Vance's tones in those messages on the signal chat, which I found on the one hand very dispiriting and actually quite depressing, but I also thought it was actually very valuable because people were prevaricating and they weren't sure where Vance stood. With those signal messages, you understood loud and

clear where J.D. Vance stands when it comes to Europe. I don't think it's just him, by the way. I think it's a broader thing within the Trump administration now. And it's understandable. And you and I, I think, would agree that when it comes to defense spending, for example, Europe has been absolutely taking the piss. Yeah. Absolutely taking the piss. We've been living under the American nuclear umbrella, not investing in our own defense,

not investing in our own services, running them down to completely ridiculous levels, while at the same time increasing over time and spending more and more money on welfare. And I totally understand the American position. The American position is, look, We don't have a huge welfare state. That's not the American way.

So why should we be paying for yours? I completely get it. And then when you add in net zero on top of it, which, let's be fair, it's just glorified de-industrialization, and makes countries like Germany and the UK, but particularly Germany, more rely on Russia for providing things like natural gas, resources like natural gas,

which Germany is going to be dependent on. So I understand the Americans going, hang on, you're saying Russia is the enemy, yet you're engaging in free trade with the enemy. Make it make sense. Well, right, that's one of the arguments people here will make about Ukraine. It's like you guys say you want to support Ukraine,

but Europe got more money, spent more money on Russian gas, rather, during the course of the war, than it gave to the Ukrainians in support. So you were telling us we've got to pay for that while you guys de-industrialized, don't produce our own energy. Like the UK is, I think, the Chinese owner of the UK's last steel-making facilities has just made the decision to shut them down.

So Britain has four times the industrial energy prices of America. We're not able to make our own virgin steel, which is what you need for military use. Why would an ally like that be valuable to the United States? So I do understand that. I also think that there is a risk that that rhetoric becomes self-fulfilling and Europe and America do end up just kind of going in separate directions. So I think it would be bad for both countries, actually, for Europe and for America. I think it would be disastrous for both.

We have always been allies for many, many years. And there are good reasons behind that. America, look, let's be honest, is the dominant superpower in the world. But it doesn't matter how strong or powerful you are. there are going to be times where you need your friends, where you need help. And by America pursuing this policy almost of isolationism, not to the extent of how some people in the MAGA movement want it, but certainly being very much colder to European friends,

you're looking at it and you're thinking to yourself, eventually this is going to come and back and bite you on the proverbial. Because the rule is you can't do everything on your, own. You need to work with people. It helps to work with people. You need trade links. You need diplomatic relations. And if you were going down this path of, I wouldn't call it antagonism, but certainly... Why not? It is antagonism. I see, because I would say that... Look, is it openly antagonistic? Yes. Why would you say it's openly antagonistic? Because J.D. Vance, and by the way, I agree with a lot of what he said in Munich. I agree with a lot of the stuff he said at the day I summit. And I thought it was a really interesting speech that he gave her for reasons we can get into. But if you look at what they're saying in those group chats in the signal thing.

Okay. So this is where they are openly contemptuous and antagonistic. But they haven't shown that there have been hints of it, but it hasn't been open. But what the signal group did is made. their attitudes and their beliefs and their views of Europe open. And we'll see how that plays out. Like I say, I think I see the American argument, and I am deeply, deeply frustrated with the British government or the country that we are from and many, many European countries that have lived, let's be honest, this is Cloud Cookeland.

You cannot destroy your own industry, your own jobs for the sake of quote unquote saving the planet, which we're absolutely not doing, and we won't be able to do when China, India, and now the United States are completely just not pursuing those policies at all. Those are the three countries that produce the most CO2 in the world, if that's your concern. Clearly, this notion that Britain can save the world

by leading the way on those issues is ridiculous because no one's following. So when we suicide our country in order to, reduce our contribution to global carbon emissions from 2% to 1% or even to 0%, but no one follows that, we are not helping anything and we're ruining our own economy, which means that we're not able to project our power, which means we're not a good ally to the United States. So I think that will play out, and my understanding of many of the Trump policies is that he's going out to an extreme in order to encourage Europeans to do more, which they're doing.

And hopefully, you know, the argument we've heard about tariffs is something we haven't mentioned yet is that the reason Donald Trump is doing this is he actually wants a zero tariff world, which it isn't. And the way to achieve a zero tariff world is to make people see that when you put tariffs on American stuff, it's not good for America. It's also not good for you. So let's all go to zero. We're not there yet. That is still ongoing. Right. But I think the other thing, and this is important, because we talked about this with Joe Rogan on his show, What we also saw from the Signal Group chat is the reaction to it from a lot of people in the new media and in the old media where, look, obviously the people on the left are going to jump on that as an opportunity to try and criticize the administration. And so they should.

And so they should. But you also see that those of us who have called out the craziness of the woke period that has been gone going for some time, we. We, I think, you and I and others, try to be honest and we say, look, this was not a good thing. Like, if you add a journalist to a signal group in which plans for U.S. attacks on Yemen are being discussed, that's not a good thing. But you also saw that a lot of people are just partisan. And they try and pretend it away, claim that this journalist is a bad person. Maybe he is a bad person. It doesn't mean that adding him to his signal group is a good thing. And I think one of the things that you're about to see is a big pivot

that I think this space is going to split into those people. And look, I'll give you an example. I've had run-ins with Glenn Greenwald online. We've had them on our show. I said some things about him that were not complimentary after, you know, in part of our discussions or whatever. But he's been very principled on things like this, as of many other people. But there's also going to be a section of people who they never really cared about the truth.

They never really cared about being balanced. They just care about their side. And to them, it's like red, team blue team. They're on Team Red, and they'll ignore everything that Team Red does that's bad and focus only on what Team Blue does. And I think that's going to be a big split in this space. Well, it is. And what you're going to see is actually people who have the integrity

to come out and criticize Team Red and the people that don't. And look, I think this is one of the things we need to talk about, honestly. there's just a lot of people on both sides that this is just a power game and they will do whatever it takes in order to get power and once they get power then they can enact the policies

and the vision that they want for the country and however you get there that's fair game it's fair game and that's fair game for people on the progressive left woke whatever you want to call them and there's people on the other side of the right it's fair game to them

because to them this is a game. That's all it is. It's a game and you strategize and you do what it takes in order to get your guy in so that you win. And hey, if you break a few eggs, then what's the problem? But that guy is in and I think, look, neither of us is American. So this is just an outside perspective and it's up to Americans, how they run their government and blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's 100% accurate. But from my perspective, I would say the same thing about the UK. if you get people into power that you think are better than the people that are there now, you nonetheless want them to be accountable.

You nonetheless want them to admit mistakes and correct mistakes. You nonetheless want them to have their feet held to the fire for things that they do that are fair. And I think the strategy that the White House employed in this issue was very strange because they admitted it was a mistake. They admitted it was real. several people, Tulsi Gabbard included, said it was a mistake. I think Mike Walsam said, himself said it was a mistake. But they also at the same time tried to attack the journalist

for reporting being added to a signal group. Every journalist in history would have done that, right? Would have published that story and would have done it the way that he did. So it's just an attempt to pretend that a mistake wasn't made, even though you've admitted a mistake. It doesn't make any sense. And I think the fastest way to lose credibility with sensible people, the overwhelming majority of this country,

is to pretend that you didn't make a mistake when you did, when you obviously did, and not to admit it and not to apologize and not to say, we're going to investigate this and find out what's going on. I completely agree with you, but then you're not partisan. So to those people, all that matters is power and maintaining power. And what's the number one way for them to maintain power is to deny all culpability. That's how you do it. You deny that you've made a mistake, thereby you deny weakness, and thereby you've doubled down.

And let's be fair to them as well, we have seen time and time again when cancellations happens, the worst things that you can do is apologize. Because once you apologize, that then emboldens the mob in order to get people fired, cancel, whatever you want to call it. So they would argue, hey, look, maybe in a different world apologizing or saying, hey, we got it wrong here, might be the smart thing to do. But in the world of the online, the world of the Twitter, the world of the troll and online mobs and all the rest of it,

no, double down, that's the only way we ride this out. And I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm saying that's what they probably think. That's probably what they think. But the difference is that the problem with cancel culture was people being unfairly treated and misrepresented and lied about. And if someone accuses you of something that you haven't done, or if someone claims that you've said something that you haven't said,

and you and I have both had those experiences. Of course, you should never apologize in that situation. But at the same time, if you've made an actual mistake, the best way to make that go away is to hold your hands up and go, that was a mistake, we're investigating, we'll find out what happened, and the right processes will be put in place so this doesn't happen anymore. That's how you deal with it, and at some point you might have to admit culpability, and some people might have to accept the consequences of them.

that. But that is the way you maintain credibility. Anyway, it feels to me like we're in an interesting moment. But in terms of the stuff that you and I have picked up kind of on the ground here in America, I think one other thing that is really important to say is the wave of optimism, positivity that happened in America after the last election, which we were here for. And we did one of these conversations then doesn't cover up the fact that a lot of ordinary Americans left. right, center, up, down, a lot of people are really hurting. We heard this from guest after guest and ordinary person after ordinary person that we spoke to. A hell of a lot of people are in a position where they're financially very precarious.

They're living hand to mouth. They don't have savings. Costs of things are going up. And they're looking for solutions to those things. And I think a lot of people hope that this re-industrializing America agenda, bringing jobs to America, is going to work. But at this moment in time, a lot of people are in a very difficult situation. Well, look, we were in D.C. and we went into a sandwich shop, and there was a sign on the counter which said, due to the rise of the price and eggs, all sandwiches, which include eggs, have gone up

by a dollar. And that tells you something very, very profound, which is the steep rise in food prices, but also the fact that there's going to be a lot of people who go in to buy a sandwich see an increase of a dollar and go, I just can't afford that. And what that actually tells you is people are at breaking point here economically. People are at breaking point. And that is a very, very dangerous place to be in for the average American. Because unlike, and you've said it yourself, they don't have the safety net of welfare that we have in Europe.

So to have a hand-to-mouth existence in America and then thinking to yourself, you know what? Maybe I'm not going to be able to make health insurance this month. What happens if you don't make health insurance and then all of a sudden, you come down with something? Then what? Then what happens then?

You lose your house, your car. And if you lose your car as an American, this is what, enough of people don't really realize. You can't really walk in this country. unless you live in New York. So the only way that you can actually really get around is buy a car. The only way you can really get to work is buy a car. And if you lose your car, that means that you lose your ability to work and get around.

It's a death sentence. So there's a lot of people in this country who scripe by month after month after month. And if Trump wants to make America better, that's the most important thing for me, is to make America better for those people, because that's the vast majority of Americans. And I, whether, whatever my personal view on, forget about President Trump, it doesn't matter which side of the political debate you're on,

I think that's by far in a way the biggest issue. And I really hope that the current administration succeeds in making more, giving more Americans access to the American dream. Because, you know, I thought Charlemagne, who we had on the show, made this point very well. And Andrew Schultz talked about this as well

when we interviewed him, which is the reason that you're seeing support for like that Luigi guy who killed a health care company, health insurance company executive and other movements of that kind is that a hell of a lot of people don't have the hope that their American dream is supposed to provide to them. And this reflects not only in the price of food and groceries and other things, but it's also about your ability to buy somewhere to live. It applies to your ability to.

have kids and provide a life for them. And that is a big, big, big issue. And I really hope that what the Trump administration is doing is going to be successful on that. We haven't talked about those yet. And we haven't talked about the immigration situation and the deportation thing. Because I think on both of those things, what you're likely to find is that the solution is right and necessary.

But when you move this quickly, mistakes are going to get made. things are going to get, you know, things that shouldn't really be cut are going to get cut. People who shouldn't be deported are going to get deported. And this does seem to be some of that going on. Yeah. And I think the problem is when there are people, not, of course, all people, but there will be ideologues on both sides. And once ideology becomes the most important thing in a policy, that's when things start

to go right. Because when you start thinking to yourself, actually, what is right and what is the it's practical and there's going to be mistakes made. But on both sides of the political spectrum, there are a lot of people who like punishing, those people that they see as being in the wrong, those people as being immoral, those people, let's say it as well, as being inferior.

And it is their job to go and get a little bit of justice. And I think one of the things we're starting to see on the right with certain aspects and certain people, is there is a little bit of a desire for vengeance and justice. And I find myself personally very uncomfortable with that. Look, I think I'm, you and I joke about this all the time, you are more high empathy than I am. I'm a lot lower empathy.

And because of that, I will say that I think this is true in Britain. I think it's true in America. After at least a decade of open borders, deporting criminals absolutely needs to happen. Completely agree. reservation about that. I have no empathy for people who come here legally and murder people, rape people, commit crimes. They should be deported. I don't particularly care if they end up in a maximum security prison in El Salvador. Legally, there may be issues with that and that should

go through the proper process. But my concern is that in attempting to deal with those issues, it's very, very important that there is due process and we have seen one or two instances. And it's hard to know what you believe based on what's going on. on what's being reported of people who are not fitting of that description being deported to a country they've never even been to and being stuck in a prison with worst criminals in the world. And likewise with those, look, I'm on record of saying this and I will say it again. Reducing the size of government is a massive, massive priority for every Western country. It needs to be done.

And I'm not just talking about eliminating waste and fraud, which needs to be done. And I hope to God that happens and it happens quickly. And I think part of the reason they're doing it quickly is the only way to do it because otherwise the machine and the blob is going to swallow you up. But in that process, you're also potentially going to cause issues. And so all of these things have to be done quickly and carefully. And that's very, very difficult to do. So I am excited for Doge and I hope we get one in the UK and in other countries.

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secrets, America's billionaires hope you never see. To get yours, text Trigger to 35052. Now, that's Trigger to 35052. Listen, there's no denying it. The shift is accelerating. The question is, will you be ready? Text trigger to 3502 now. Yeah, and what I've seen is, look, there's nothing wrong with enthusiasm. There's nothing wrong with wanting to get things done. What I think is a problem is when you start to rush things. Because when you start to rush policies and policy implementation, that is a moment where you're not actually taking due care and taking due process. And look, let's be honest. people make mistakes. Every time you're implementing new policy, there's going to be things that you don't know, you're going to, there's going to be errors that you make, that is all perfectly natural. But when you start to rush things and policies, that's the moment where oversights get made, people get swept up, and things like maybe gay barbers, gay Venezuelan barbers ending up in maximum security prisons. And here's the other thing that we've spoken,

about and we spoke about on Rogan, this is the tragedy of the mainstream media going off the deep end. I don't know if it's true. You don't know if it's true. So we don't know if this guy is true and or it's just been a construct of left-wing media. And that's a horrible situation to be in because if the story is true, this is a human rights travesty. Let's call it what it is. It's a travesty. But if it's not, then we're all being gaslit and manipulated. And the worst thing is... We don't know which one of those is right. No. So in good conscience, we talk about this and we have to add caveat after caveat

after caveat, which means we can't hold the right accountable. Because we don't know what's true and what's not. Yeah. And we've been talking about this for a long time, and we're here. We are here. And what the left did is they destroyed language and they destroyed faith in the mainstream media. So now words like Nazi don't mean anything anymore. And reporting in publications like Time Magazine, which is where that story was originating on Forbes, et cetera, we don't really know what to believe. But I do also think, I think if you're objective about this, if you're not partisan, you have to recognize that when you're rounding up hundreds and hundreds of people, it is not unlikely that one or two people

are going to get caught up in it who are not supposed to be there. And so what you'd hope is that there is a process from making sure that the people to whom this happens have access to due process, they can appeal, etc., which, you know, I hope that happens. The problem is, you know, as we talked about with the signal story, when a government does things that it shouldn't do, the incentive structure is not unlikely to encourage them to admit that and correct. The incentive structure is to pretend it didn't happen to cover it up, etc. So I just, look, I really hope that in dealing with illegal immigration, the U.S. administration, and also if we ever get to that point in our country,

I hope it gets dealt with quickly. I don't massively care about, you know, we joke all the time about you. There was a guy who couldn't be deported from the UK because his kid likes chicken nuggets that are brutal, all of this stuff. I don't give a shit about any way. If you come to a country illegally and commit crime, I don't massively care about making sure you're okay in every way. Like if you get deported and you end up in prison, good.

Yeah. But we can't throw away the baby with the bathwater. And I think one of the reasons America is so great is that there is a legal system that allows people recourse to appeal and so on. I think that's really important. And that's really important. And also America is going to have to have a discussion about we've seen case after case.

And again, I don't know what to think of them because I don't know about the veracity of the reporting. but we hear about these people who attended a protest, pro-Palestine protest, or, you know, who organised protests, and they've been deported. On the one hand, that makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable, incredibly uncomfortable, because if all you did was attend a protest and all of a sudden you're off, I'm not cool with that.

I'm going to be honest with you. If you took part and attended and organized a protest, which threatened, intimidated people, damaged public property, defacing public property, all the rest of it, I'm not particularly cool with that, and I understand why that particular government would want you out of the country. But America needs to have a very frank conversation

about what is acceptable. What is it that is acceptable for people for non-U.S. citizens to do when they have a visa in this country? Now, look, here's what I'll say, that I think is a very complicated issue. My understanding, I don't know the law very well. I have read a few things about it. And my understanding is it's very complicated. However, you and I think are always going to err on the side of people being allowed to speak their mind and not be

punished for it. And so from that perspective, I think deporting people who express their lawful opinion in public, even if it's at a protest, I think it's totally wrong. On the other hand, and this is not about the specific incident. So just to be clear, I think people who say things that people don't like shouldn't be deported from the country. Just as a matter of principle, I'm not talking about these specific cases because I don't know the details exactly. The claim is they were pro-hamas or whatever. I don't know if that's true. But if they are pro-hamas, I think that needs to be established in court as opposed to someone just saying it and then these people being removed.

On the other hand, it's not even on the other hand. That is said and I don't take back any of that. You and I are visitors to the United States. Would you go to a protest to protest about stuff in this country as a visitor? No. And neither would I. And I think the reason for that is, is there's a fundamental recognition that there's a difference between being a citizen of a country and being a visitor there or having a visa to come there. And, you know, we've got a conversation that will come out in a while with Barry Strauss, who's one of our favorite historians,

talking about the collapse of an empire and how he sees parallels in the modern world. And one of the things he mentioned is once you erode the concept of citizenship and the privileges and the duties that come with that, that's when you're going down a very dangerous path. And I think that's true. And my sense is that, again, I think the legal system in America in relation to this issue is quite complicated. And so I'm not commenting on that.

I'm just saying as a matter of principle. I think it's perfectly fine for a distinction to be made between citizens and non-citizens. And I think actually that distinction needs to be made stronger and wider. And I think we need to say that in order for us to have a cohesive society, you gain lots of rights and duties when you become a citizen of the country. And until you are, you may not be subject to all the exact same rules. And I say that as someone who was for a very long time in that position in Britain as a first-generation immigrant

and someone who visits to the United States. I don't feel entitled to act like a dick in America because this isn't my country. And when we talk about American politics and policy and things that happen here, I think we both always try to do it from a place of understanding that this isn't our country and we have a respect for it

and there's certain things we don't understand about it. And I think if setting aside the legalistic arguments and setting aside the fact that we already said people who just expressed their opinion in our view should not be removed from a country. But Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, makes the point that if you told us when you made your visa applications,

and you and I both know that the process for getting an American visa is quite involved. And rightly so. You know, why shouldn't you be able to just come here? I disagree. All you need to do is be on an interview with Theo von, mate, and they let you straight in. That was your experience with the embassy. But not mine. And my point is this.

I think that if you, what he's saying is, if you told us that this is what you would do on your visa application, we never would have let you into the country. And I think that distinction is also important. I think we have to, as a culture in Britain certainly, and I would argue in America as well as an outsider, make the distinction. very clear between people who are here as visitors and people who have taken on the opportunity and also the burden of citizenship. And when you take on the duties and burdens of citizenship, that comes with an expanded set of rights. I don't think it is in the interest of our country or the interest of America to welcome lots of people from other countries so that they can then start basically slagging off this country. I don't really see how that is appropriate. And so what I'm

saying is I think we really have to dial in on this idea that you we can't just let loads of people in who don't like our society. And to the extent that these people are demonstrating elements of that, and I don't know if they are. I don't know if they are. Like I said, I'm very uncomfortable with people being persecuted for saying things out loud. But I do think that distinction between citizen and non-citizen needs to be expanded very significantly. And I think overall, we need to be a lot firmer with people who are not citizens who are, like, for example, in Britain, you can get access to the benefit system. You can get social housing. I don't understand why that's the case if you're not a British citizen. Absolutely. Look, I agree with you on that. But I think what you're going to

need to do, like you said, is we're going to need to have, quite frankly, an uncomfortable conversation, and then very clear rules are going to need to be delineated. They're just going to have to. Because whilst you've got this grey area, the reality is it is unfair on people who were getting deported because they didn't know the rules. They didn't know the rules. And if the rules didn't exist or they weren't made clear and all of a sudden you're on the, you've got your door kicked down and off you go, you can quite rightly say, hey, all I did was organise, help to organise a few protests. Why are you getting rid of me? That wasn't, that was never explained to me. Because if it was, I wouldn't have done it. So,

what again, it comes down to being clear, because if the rules are clearly expressed, then if you break them, that's on you. But if there are no rules or they're particularly muddy, I mean, people have a right to then criticize. And oh, by the way, I'm not talking about, you know, things like defacing public property, intimidatory protests, all of that. But we need to have this conversation, because if we don't have it, we're going to continue being in this grey area, and that is not good for anybody. It's not good for the citizens, and it's not good for the people who come here on short-term or long-term visas, because they don't understand the rules, particularly with young people, who, as we all know, are far more impetuous, they're far more likely to think the decisions through, who are far more likely to get involved in activism and politics, because that's what you do. So they need to know. Yeah.

Otherwise, it's unfair. And I just think, I think now is the time for America to have those conversations. Not just for America. For all of us to have those conversations. Because we have been living in this world where open borders, you know, we want to be open to the rest of the world. We want to make decisions that aren't really aren't good, but feel good. and a lot of good decisions don't make you feel good. It's not nice to eat a salad, mate.

Particularly when you're in America, where you've got all of these other options. Yeah, we have enjoyed the food, as you can see from my fat faces. Yeah, and our fat neck or my fat neck. So the reality is we need to start having difficult conversations and we need to start making difficult decisions. Yeah. And I'm very, very comfortable with, as I say,

delineating between citizens and not citizens in a very, very, very thorough way. Like I said, I don't think you should get access to the benefit system. I don't think you should get access to social housing. I don't think, I think you should only be in the country if you are a net contributor. Absolutely. And if you come to Britain and you spend your time on benefits and you spend on time living in social housing, why are you in the country? I don't understand.

Why is that in the interest of Britain? It's not in the interest of Britain And that just has to end And I think the reason that these things are happening In America in this way Is that frankly, a lot of people in the West Are saying, look, we are welcoming of immigrants But if you come in our house

You have to You have to make yourself a valuable contributor Otherwise, why are you here? And I think that's a perfectly fair question. Of course. A perfectly fair question. So, um, That's another conversation.

And, of course, the one thing that as we sit here, we're at the end of March, so it's been two and a half months or close to it since the new administration has come in, is some of the promises around Ukraine and Israel have yet to materialize. So Donald Trump said he would end the Ukraine war on day one. That isn't happening. I'm sure we both have some thoughts on that. And likewise, in Israel, there was a ceasefire. broke it that is not held. And as we sit here, we saw some anti-Hamas protests in Gaza. I just read a

story again, not sure if it's true, but as we sit here, the leader of those protests has been shot by Hamas. What have you taken away from the conversations we've had and other things that we've noticed here about those two issues? I think one of the things I've actually taken away from it is we thought Trump's attitude to geopolitics was going to be one way. It was going to be a particular way. It was going to be very Eurocentric. We were going to be in it together.

As we mentioned at the start, I don't think that's going to be the case. I don't think I ever thought that. Maybe I did. I thought he would put America first, but in the process of that, he would seek to get the right deal in Ukraine. Do you see what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, but I always thought he was going to put America first, but we were going to still be, we were still going to be on very, very friendly terms. It was going to be America first, but he was still going to be an anglophile. He was still going to want to broadly work with us. I think what has happened and the way you've seen them talk about Ukraine and their attitude and things like the minerals deal, I think that that has shown you that Ukraine is not to their priority. It is, and you have to accept that, as awful as it is for Europeans who understand, because,

of the closer proximity to the war and to the Ukrainian people, the horrendous suffering that is going on there, the loss of life. I think the reality is it is simply not a priority for the Americans. And we have to accept that as awful as that is. And for them, their priority is getting a deal done as quickly as possible so they can move on to the next thing. They're not that interested in whether the deal is going to hold for the long term. It's personally what I think.

I think so as well. And I think that is going to be a tragic mistake. And I don't say that because I support Ukraine or anything like that. I say that because if the deal is not made in a way that is capable of being held permanently, in a way that Russia is prevented and disincentivized from invading again, then it will invade again. And if that happens, we are going to be back here again. but in a worse place. And not only that,

I think that if the Trump administration is perceived by other countries to effectively have sold Ukraine down the river, what you're going to end up with is every country that fears Russia or any other big, powerful country, will have a very obvious incentive to pursue nuclear weapons.

I think that's inevitable. And I have to say, we interviewed our friend, Dr. Sebastian Gorka, who I think very, very, anti-Putton from our previous conversation with him. But what I heard from him did not persuade me that the White House is pursuing a policy that will ensure permanent long-term peace in Ukraine. That's not what I heard. And that is just not what I heard. And then we listened to Donald Trump's special envoy, Steve Whitkoff on Tucker Carson's show. And when I watched that, look, I don't know,

he seems like a very nice man. He seems like a lovely man who thinks the best of everyone who's trying to ratchet down a rhetoric, make sure that the conversations can be had. But I have to say, based on that conversation, he doesn't have the first clue about this conflict. He has no idea what's going on. He couldn't name the regions that he was talking about in Ukraine. He completely misunderstands the reason for Russia's invasion. He completely misunderstands almost every aspect of why that conflict is going on. And he's going to be up against people in the Putin government who have spent decades training for this moment. And this is a thing, you know, he talks about how President Putin was very nice to him,

and I'm sure he was. But you've got to understand something. You may hate Vladimir Putin, you may love Vladimir Putin. It doesn't really matter. You have to understand who the man is. He has been in charge of Russia for the last 26 years. And prior to that, he was in. KGB man and still is. There's no such

thing as an ex-KGB man. In other words, he has spent his entire life training to deceive, to manipulate, to take advantage, to expose, and to wield every tool in that toolbox to achieve the best possible outcome

for him. And he's up against the guy who doesn't know the geography of the area that he's talking about. And my worry is in their desire to end this, as quickly as possible. And with that sort of approach,

they're going to get, as we say in Britain, get taken to the cleaners. And if that happens, that is not just going to be a bad thing for Ukraine. It's going to be a bad thing for the world. And I'm very, very concerned that that's where this is going. I really don't see.

Look, the stopping of the massacre of both Ukrainian and Russian young men and increasingly old men in Ukraine is an idea that everyone should be behind. We need a peace deal. There is no progress being made. Neither side is really winning, although Russia is edging forward. But if this doesn't end in a way that ensures long-term security, this is just going to get deferred until another time when Vladimir Putin comes back for more.

That is not a good thing to do. And increasing the risk of nuclear proliferation in the world is not a good thing to do either. And that's where this is going. What do you think? Because we've had people on the show talk about this. We have had numerous people on the show talk about this. I've seen this narrative been discussed online that the US isn't really interested in Ukraine. It's only interested in resolving the situation

with maximum speed, minimum fuss. Because their number one priority is not Russia, Ukraine, it's China. China is the thing that it's worried about. So the last thing it wants to do is antagonize Russia because then Russia will seek to become allies with China. And it's far more beneficial for the US to ally with Russia

and thereby strengthening their alliance so that they've become less vulnerable to the Chinese. That's a fair point. And I'm not sufficiently educated about it. that issue to really comment. The one thing that came into my mind as you were talking is I remember when I was on tour with Jordan Peterson last year here in America, in one of the Q&A sessions, I think a guy asked, you know, my wife talks so much, you know, I can't handle hours and hours of talking to my wife. It's causing a strain in our relationship. And he went, you've got two choices.

Either you listen to your wife now, or you listen to her in therapy, or you listen to her in divorce, right? And this is the problem, right? If you try and run away from things that you don't like, but you don't address the root of the problem, you end up causing more problems down the line. And that's my concern about this particular shift in policy. And that's why I said, you know, what Seb said in our interview didn't reassure me because he was like, well, as long as Donald Trump's president, everything is going to be fine, even if we accept that that's true, that is not a long-term solution. No. And even if Jay DeVantz has two. terms after President Trump, which we don't have any guarantee of at this point, we don't know

that that's a long-term solution either. Nor, by the way, do we know who the next president of Russia is going to be. So ultimately, unless there is a Korean-style demilitarized zone with a peacekeeping force of some kind on that border, it seems to me that there isn't any logical reason why the invasion wouldn't be repeated, and then the entire world wouldn't find itself right here again. Again, except in that time, Russia's had a chance to recover, is in a stronger position, maybe has a different leader. Maybe the Western world is led by different people

who are willing to let things happen or too weak to prevent them. So I'm glad the efforts are being made to secure peace in Ukraine. That's important and necessary. I'm very, very concerned that the way that's going to get done is not the way that it should be. Yeah. And that is a worry for all of us, and it's a worry for Europe.

It really is. And this is why Europe needs to step up. It's why Europe needs to step up, and it's why Europe, quite frankly, needs to get its head out of its ass and realize that a lot of these policies that it's been pursuing are, quite frankly, they're not just self-harm.

It's self-destruction. You're obliterating your own economy. You are weakening, not only your economy, but your ability to defend itself. Because we've been living in this Francis Fukuyama, you know, the end of history, man. we're like, we've got beyond war.

It's all cool now because we're trading and, you know, you've got a McDonald's. I've got a McDonald's. That's great, isn't it? Yeah, but a few years ago, we woke up and we smoked with coffee and we realized that world is over. So what are you going to do? You're going to carry on with your delusion and just like hanging out and being like, oh, this is all right, this is fine?

Or are you actually going to realize that the world is changed and we need to change with it? The one thing for balance that I think we can be very positive about, or at least it seems like at the moment, is what's happening in the Middle East, because what you see, the current White House understands very well that the conflicts, not just in Israel and Gaza, but elsewhere in the Middle East, are about one thing, which is Islamists versus everybody else. And so what I see them doing is they're attempting to align the moderate Arab governments with Israel against those forces. because the Arab rulers of those countries who are Muslims, they don't want anything to do with Islamists because Islamists are a direct threat to them. Of course. Because Islamists don't believe in national states.

They want to caliphate. They want to remove those people who lead those countries and replace them with one big caliphate. And of course, we all know that that is being funded and encouraged by Iran. So Donald Trump was able to make quite a bit of progress in his first term, and it looks like they're very clear-headed

about what's happening in Middle East and are moving in the right direction. Gaza side, you know, that's obviously a big mess and we hope that that ends because it's terrible what's happening there. But I think I'm much more hopeful about their plan for the Middle East. Yes, and when we were talking to Sebastian Gorka,

he made it, he was saying, there's things that we can't talk about, but we are going to be tackling that head, And that's what Iran needs. Iran needs to be tackled head on because for too long, and we saw it with Biden, with giving a huge amount of money to Iran, a huge amount of money, which to me, I didn't understand the first thing about why they would do that. I'm not sure Biden did either. God bless him.

But it has been allowed to continue now. You cannot have a nation funding terrorist groups whose explicit aim is to destabilize other countries. And not just Israel, by the way, but Lebanon as well. And other countries. In every country. In every country, you simply can't have it. So you're facing with two options. Either you kind of basically rely on Israel to hold it together, which it can't do.

because eventually, like October the 7th, something will happen, something will get through, or you realize that the only way to do this is by tackling the problem. And that's it. So like you, I am more hopeful on the situation with Iran, which I didn't think I'd be saying. I thought it'd be the other way around, if I'm being honest. Interesting. I thought it'd be the other way around. I thought they were going to be much tougher on Putin.

I have found that the way they have spoken, and look, people go, hey, look, these are just tactics and whatever else. I don't agree with that. I think words of consequences, if you call Zelensky a dictator, I'll be honestly, I think that's over the line. You can make legitimate criticisms. Fair enough, you can say, I've found the Ukrainian leadership when it comes to the discussions unhelpful on X, Y, and Z. I have found Putin X, Y, whatever it is. But you can't make claims like that. That's, that's, because what it does is that has a very significant impact on the populace of your country.

I've actually been shocked when in Austin, I've gone to parties and people have been saying things like, you know, Zelensky's a dictator and, you know, Putin, all he's doing is trying to reclaim what's rightfully his. That's quite a mainstream position in the large swathes of this country. And I think part of it is, like you say, the rhetoric, part of it is also, and I think Charlemann made this point. and it made a lot of sense to me, which is people begin to care, let's be honest, right? Let's be honest. Americans don't mind spending a bit of money bombing a country on the other side of the world, right? They've never had an issue with that. Americans like having a powerful military, and they're prepared to use it.

The problem is when ordinary people are hurting, that's when they suddenly start going. Well, why are we sending money to this country? Why are we sending money to that country? And, of course, they're not hurting because they sent a hundred billion dollars worth of weaponry to you. Ukraine. That sounds like a lot of money and it is. But that is a drop in the ocean when it comes to the United States budget, right? The reason they're hurting is decades of government mismanagement of the economy. And that's where, again, I'm very excited. I think the re-industrialization agenda is great. I really hope that happens in America and I really hope that inspires us in

the UK in particular, but elsewhere in the Western world. We have, got to recognize that we do not live in the Francis Fukuyama Wonderland. We have to be able to produce our own steel. We have to be able to produce our own energy. We have to be able to make things. And that's important not only for defense, it's important for our people to have meaningful jobs that allow them to make money, put food on the table, have a family. These things are very, very important. And re-industrializing our countries is a big part of that, and it's necessary. And we have been deindustrialising in the UK for far too long. We have let our industries wither on the vine

because we'll be like, hey, look, we can just rely on insurance and financial services. London's making a killing. Why does it matter? Well, you know why it matters? Because you go out of London and you go to some of these provincial towns and cities which have had the literal hearts ripped out of them, and the people, it's completely, it's hard, It's heartbreaking. You remember when we were doing comedy and you were going up and down to this morning.

Yeah. That was more for the audience, mate. But anyway, but you were going to these towns and cities. And it was devoid of hope. There was no industry there. It was miserable. It was depressing. It was people living a life without dignity. Not everybody can be a recruitment consultant in London. It can't absorb all those people. You need to. You need to. have something else. We always had really, really great manufacturing in the UK, and we just let it go because we were living in this world of going, we don't need it. But just like with all delusions, there comes a point you either wake up and you live in the real world, or you continue to live in the delusion until the real world wakes you up. Well, the real world is about to wake Britain up because we're headed for bankruptcy. And this is not an exaggeration. Liam Halligan, who we just had on the show, he wrote about this on the substack. We are heading to an IMF bailout.

That's the direction we're going in. And no amount of raising taxes is going to help that, right? We've got to grow the economy. We've got to scrap net zero immediately. We have got to do everything possible to produce our own energy. I don't care how much carbon it produces. I'm sorry, I don't. We have to look after our people today and our children and our grandchildren

who are going to be paying these debts off for the next 60 years if we're lucky. So we've got to grow the economy. We've got to cut all of these luxury beliefs and that is going to be a big shift. And it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be painless. But our country needs to wake up. People in America have had that wake up call. And to the extent that they're doing good things, I think we should be inspired by that and we should bring that to the UK and take the best of it and do everything we can. Because otherwise, we're just going to continue to decline. And I don't want that for our country. No, I don't want to...

I'll be honest with you. Sometimes when I come to America and they make jokes about what's going on in the UK. And look, the jokes are good and they're fair. And you want to tell them to go fuck themselves? Yeah, I really do. I really do. But you're not in a position to it?

No, because it's embarrassing. It's like having a kid and he's fat and he's coming last at Sports Day and everyone's taking the piss out of him. And you're going, well, Well, what can I say? I've got no comeback. I've got nothing. It's embarrassing.

It really is embarrassing. We were here. We've been here for two weeks. There's a story about somebody being put in a police cell because of complaints on a parent's WhatsApp group because of complaints they made about a teacher. You're going, what's going on? There were six police officers.

I think if not more, come to arrest them. What's happening? Did he have a license for that opinion, mate? No, that is probably true, mate. Yeah, that is true. You make a strong case, say, he didn't. No, what's happening in Britain is just, we're becoming the laughing stock of the world.

I don't think we're becoming. I think we are there, mate. It's true. It's true. So all of that shit needs to end. Obviously, we've got a Labour government who I'm sure are going to do everything in their power to sort that out.

But even the Labor government, I mean, if you look at the economics of it, the Labor government is making massive cuts. They're not big enough for what we need, but they're still making cuts because everyone knows we're in a completely unsustainable situation. So that wake-up call, and if we don't, look, and this is what's going to happen,

this much I can tell you with some confidence. Either we heed that wake-up call now or things are going to get worse until there's a wake-up call we simply cannot ignore. Yeah. That is the choice of Britain facing. today. And that's where we are. Yeah. That is where we are. But look.

All right. America's fucked. Britain's fucked. The world's fucked. Thanks for watching. Give us money. To give us money, head on over to Substack where we're about to answer questions that you guys have sent in. The link is in the description. Frederick says, how did you find the White House and what was the feeling walking into the building? How did I find the White House? There's a couple of questions about whether we plan to move to America. Yeah.

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