TRIGGERnometry - "What Exactly Is A British Bloke?" with Geoff Norcott

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Geoff Norcott is an English comedian, writer and political commentator. He has appeared on Mock the Week, Live at the Apollo and Question Time, and has written for The Daily Telegraph, The Independent and Spiked.  He is the author of ‘The British Bloke, Decoded: From Banter to Man-Flu. Everything finally explained’ available here: amzn.to/3FX7xdS See Geoff on tour: https://www.livenation.co.uk/artist-geoff-norcott-1252793 SPONSORED BY: Manscaped. Get 20% off and free shipping when you use the code TRIGGER20 at https://www.manscaped.com/ Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube:  @xentricapc  Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I guess anybody having a son around now, you kind of look at him, you go, It's not going to be as good, mate. It's just not going to be quite as good. I think men have rightly in some cases looked at the language they use of women and whether or not they're making women feel uncomfortable. I don't see any such thing happening with women. A bloke will, you know...

You'll fix the washing machine, all that. Steady on. I mean, like the... Mate, I fixed the washing machine. Did you? Yeah. Did you feel your testosterone rise? Do you see the respect that they're both looking at it with you?

Yeah. The car manufacturers now routinely no longer put spare wheels in the boot of a car. And I just thought, that's just a massive slap in the face for us, because they've looked us and going, nah. If you're like, so what's going on with you? I haven't made me tense. Yeah, it did. It made you tense.

You didn't make me tense. I don't like it. I mean, what it needs to be is there needs to be a long, do it while. I don't like it. I don't. It's failings. Yeah. The design of the original Stormtroopers outfit, it just looks fucking great, right?

You're saying women are stormtroopers. I'm saying women are fascist stormtroopers. But so it is also possible. You sound like you're ready for a divorce, man. So it could also be possible. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen.

And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is one of our favourite people ever to have on the show. He returns for the 730th time. He's a comedian and his new book is called The British Blocke Decoded. Jeff Norcott, welcome to Trigon. It's good to be back, you know. I was just thinking that last time I was with you guys,

I was talking about why Labor was screwed eternally and why we'd have 10 years of conservative rules. Well, you're known for your great predictions, Jeff, aren't you? Yeah, well, at the time, it felt right, you know. But things have changed. I definitely, the worst thing is as well over the years is that each time, look, I've had to wear a bigger type jumper here because every time I see myself on it, I'll just see a man.

I'll just see a man aging over the years. We have that every day, mate. I'd see pictures of me from five years ago. I was like, my hair was black. Yeah, I wasn't going to bring it up, but that is... You have lost weight though. Yeah, I have, mate. So you're doing better.

You're doing better on some things. This is quite sort of touchy feeling. We're all trying to reassure each other about how we're looking. Let's talk about men. Yeah, bloke. Bloaks. Bloaks, right. So first of all, as you know, big international audience now.

Not showing off or anything. What's a bloke, Jeff? A bloke. Well, I wrote the bloke, the British bloke decoded because it sort of thought, for a while, after like Me Too and stuff, you know, there's a lot of stuff that certain kind of men that needed, like a record in, right? the Harvey Weinstein's and, you know, people like toxic men that were doing genuinely dodgy stuff.

But what happened? I think a lot of people agree now that other things fell into that slipstream. And there was a period for quite a while where the male brand just, well, it slumped a bit. If it was a stock market thing. You had a butt-like moment, yeah. If it was like, you know, like 1950s looking good, looking good, and then it just, you know, share price. And then I sort of felt that, you know, there are certain men who absolutely needed

to be taken to task. but I also thought that there's the bloke of which I'd probably see myself being part of that group. And I think it is quite a British thing. You know, in fact, other cultures don't really have like an exact equivalent of this word. It's just, I don't know, you're a steady guy, likes the stuff he's supposed to like like like like. You know, I'm very basic in the sense that my favourite food is curry, you know, my favourite drink is lager. You know, my favourite sitcom is Fools and Horses. You know, my favourite documentary is the making of Fools and Horses.

I'm just, there's one from the tour. And so I kind of thought that's who I am And I felt like during that time We had to basically shut up and listen But the words We felt like we were drawn into a very negative pejorative Of what being a bloke was And I thought maybe it's time for a sort of

I don't know Like the book is supposed to be like a sympathetic stock take Of where the British bloke is And do you think the fact that you're a dad And you have a son? Yeah I remember actually the very first time we interviewed you And you know of all the comedians

we've had on the show, you're probably the most affable out of the people who actually are willing to challenge the mainstream culture a little bit. Massive diss to every single other comic has been on the show, there. No, no, no. No, I'll fuck them. I'll take it. What I mean is, actually, I think you have a way of framing your opinions and your comedy in the way that makes it easy for people on the other side, so to speak, to hear. But when we ended our last question, you actually brought up something about men and boys

that I thought was like, that's quite, Jeff clearly, feel strongly about that. So did becoming a father of a boy kind of make you think about it in a slightly different way? Yes, I think because you sort of, for most of my life, I would say that, and this might be controversial the other way, that being a bloke and male has been a bit of a touch, you know what I mean? It's more of a laugh, generally, it is more of a laugh. Yeah, yeah. It's more of a laugh, less meaningful connections, but more of a laugh. But I sort of, I guess anybody having a son around now, you kind of look at him, you go, it's not going to be as good, mate. It's not going to be quite

as good. And you sort of think, so what in a way, and it's interesting you mention that because that is sort of where the book starts, is baby and bathwater? What aspects of what I deem to be blocary do I think are worth passing down? And the book starts with a sort of anecdote about my son

being involved in a bit of banter in the playground and him not understanding why the other boys seem to be being mean to him. But me taking great pleasure and going, no, so what that is is banter. They're just testing you out. to see if you're weak. And whether you're not,

you'll be able to withstand the hunt, you know, and I started getting some very detailed kind of primitive stuff. And by the time I'd finished explaining banter to him, he was like, I don't really like banter. Don't like banter. And so it's...

He's American, mate. He's bad. What would it be? Trash-talking, trashing each other. Oh, really. We love America so much, and we go there more and more,

but banter is just, they don't have it. Trash-talking, Busting each other's balls. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, at that, he takes things very literally, so that wouldn't have helped us.

But I sort of thought, what other things are there that are quite complicated concepts? You know, certain things that get a lot of stick in modern discourse, right? So things like man up. I believe in this phrase, man up. I don't see a problem with it. And there came a period. I remember there was, and I talk about it in the book, but there was an advert for Lloyd's Bank. You know these adverts, right?

They go, which way is the cultural wind blowing? Oh, yeah, yeah, blokes are shit. Man up. So this advert was a string of celebrities basically saying that they hated the phrase man up. And I thought that's a real shame because I think, obviously, anything can go to excess, right? If you're manning up means that, I don't know,

you don't go to chemo, that's bad. That's too far. But I think for the most part, like a phrase like man up, man up is sort of like a call to arms for men, isn't it? It's basically saying take yourself less seriously, take some responsibility for the situation, fall back a bit. You know, like, if you've got like a load of family staying over and there's not enough beds, right,

and you're deciding who's going to sleep on the couch, really uncomfortable makeshift bed, is it going to be granddad, no, is it going to be the women, middle age, no, is it going to be the kids, no. It's going to be the younger male, you know, and I think that's quite a good thing to make yourself less important. And I also thought, it's a shame because the amount of things that bloke could lay claim to

seem to be diminishing, whereas the amount of things that women sort of celebrate about themselves is fairly well established, you know, in terms of... I mean, that song by I'm Every Woman, you know. Yeah. I mean, they're literally claiming to be like fucking oracles, and it's all... I can read your thoughts right now.

And nobody really challenges that. So I thought, could we just keep... Could we keep manning up? So the book is, in a lighthearted way, I guess, trying to offer up arguments for why things like banter and man-flipers, exist and what kind of function they have. And it's such an important and profound point

because if you look at what's going on in our society where you could argue, particularly certain elements of it, demonise men, and then everyone rings their hands when you get a figure like Andrew Tate emerge and go, why is this? This is terrible. Why is this? Well, you've been trashing men forever, however long. You've been saying they're toxicly masculine, they're evil, blah, blah, blah. Obviously, someone who comes along and is going to subvert

that is going to get a huge audience. Yeah, I mean, I suppose the argument that progressors might make is they'll often say, well, you've had 2,000 years, lads. And I just think, all right, I can understand that as a man of 46, that I've had certain privileges at times, I can see that. I just don't know if you're a 12-year-old boy, whether that makes as much sense, less so if you're a 7-year-old boy, and every single animation you seem to watch seems to involve a strong female lead and a nervous guy who gets there in the end, right?

I started to notice that all these films, all these kid films. I mean, it's nice for me to be represented. I'm going to be honest with you today. I mean, I watched the Super Mario film, and I thought Mario is the absolute hero of that. But of course, he can't get over the line without Princess Peach, can he? Just explaining everything that he's doing wrong and her being heroic

and him just reluctantly almost falling over the line as a hero figure. So I guess, yes, people like Andrew Tate come into that space. And I think most young males would see the issues with some of what he's saying, but mainly they're just like, well, there's somebody, Aida is celebrating, you know, masculinity, which is, you know, something they might not see as much certainly in Western popular culture, but also just on a simple level, you know, not just him, but like the sort of manosphere, as it's called, is that they're saying things that just seem true, I guess, when they start saying, women like guys with money, they're like, yeah, you know, that's reasonable, you know,

women like tall guys, women like athletic guys. And yet, you know, there's the kind of thing that if you were on a discussion panel show on Radio 4, you'd have to caveat. You'd have to go, look, it could be said. It could be said that in certain scenarios, and by no means all, and you have to do all these weird, fucking small print terms and condition things.

And you go, yeah, but in wider Britain, a lot of these things aren't contentious, you know. So there's some stuff which is a defence of things, you know, which I think is something that maybe is timely, but also just trying to scratch beneath the surface of some of our idiocy. Like, why don't we wear sun? Do you wear sun cream when you're in a hot country? No, no, no. I knew he would have. I'm off South American, mate. I should be able to come out there and come back looking like a bronzed adonish.

Well, that's not what happens, though. You come out looking like a cram. I mean, you're South American. You're whiteer than both of us. Yeah. You're the whitest guy in the room. I am, and I take great pride in that, mate. He's got white pride, man, there you go. And what about you? Do you wear sun cream when you're on a holiday? Not for the first couple of days, and then eventually I'm like, classic. Yeah, mate, because, you know.

But then my wife eventually turns out to be of been right. Yeah. And then I start wearing it. Of course they are right. And we should probably have some protection against the hottest thing in our universe. But so I looked at the question of why don't men wear sun cream, right? And I thought you could just pass it off as bravado or ignorance, you know, or just silliness. A lot of times, blokes are put into that kind of pigeonhole.

They also thought about the act of moisturizing your body on a beach. Now, women will generally use more creams, you know, nice. Day cream. They'll take more care of their body. A bloke won't often do any of that stuff. And then suddenly he's in a public space and he's supposed to basically engage in what he might feel looks like an act of self-love, right? And the worst thing is you've got to get to that bit there.

That is such a weird, you know, getting to your lower back. It's almost like, you know, when a cat has to lick their chin and they lose all their fucking dignity, like, straight away. So I thought there's more going on here than just blokes being, sort of trying to be alphas or being emotionally retentive. It's actually about match fitness. In terms of self-preservation of our own bodies, we just don't do it that much.

So on the two times of years, we're on a beach and we're expected to do it, we have a bit of reticence. We feel awkward. So it doesn't necessarily say that that's a wise behaviour, but it's not just block-headedness. It's not. And you know what's really interesting

about seeing the younger generation? Like, for me and you, we came of age at that kind of post-raved generation. generation, the sort of post-Brit-pop, you know, noughties, late 90s, where it was all about going out, you know, doing drugs, getting messed up. And you look at this new generation now, and the pressure for them to look good and to be ripped and to be buffed men, we've never had that.

It was all about how much you could take on a night out. Yes, and I think, so the first time I appeared on this show, and I did say about the objectification of men would eventually become an issue. It hasn't fully come into view yet But it is funny, I think, whereby I think men have rightly in some cases Looked at the language they use of women And whether or not they're making women feel uncomfortable

I don't see any such thing happening with women Have you been out for like dinner With a group of middle-aged women A bit of presecre And then if the waiter is a bit good looking Oh mate Do what the way that they speak to them You're like you're being creepy

But often it won't occur to them That it's possible for them to be creepy Because in their minds They've presumed that all men want femaleity all the time. And there's a lot of truth in that. But, you know, if he's 19 years old and he's a 10, you know, there's a certain kind of attention, I guess, that he feels that he would want. And I think that that is, that has been, instead of like saying, why don't we, you know, women have this pressure to look good and men don't, instead of saying, why don't we take it away from both parties, all he's done is equalized it, really. And the way that men are objectified. Like, look, I mean, for example, I heard a very high-profile profile film review show and they were talking about Henry Cavill and they, there's two female presenters and they said, well, he's very easy on the eye. And I just thought, you know, I don't care about that personally, but I just thought, God, if Mark Kermode and Simon Mayer were going,

yeah, she's a bit of eye candy there. Oh, ho! Now, I know there's a different history and stuff. So I do think that the sexual politics is changing rapidly. I just think what you're actually highlighting there, Jeff, is that, this idea that we've somehow got into where the relationship between men and women is portrayed as some sort of battle of the sexist is the most insane thing I've ever heard because throughout human history and almost certainly for the rest of human history,

these two groups of people are going to have to work together to survive, to thrive, to raise children, etc. And so sort of playing this like who's up, who's down thing just doesn't make any sense. What ideally we should be looking at is how do we work together, How do we understand the differences? But we seem to have got to a point where it's like, let's pretend there are no differences other than men are evil. Yeah, it seems that where in the past, you know,

women had certain sexist presumptions about them. Like you say, there's an overcorrection. And society does generally overcorrect, and no one really wins in that case. All you do is slightly try and equalize the misery. But there was a point I was just about to hate this fucking great. Classic bloke, you see, forgot the important things. that we're supposed to, oh fuck, is there an advo?

It's a really good... We'll let it out. What was it? You were saying to something... Oh, that was it. That was it. Yeah, I mean, like, the reason that that historic Gillette advert was such a huge fuck-up was was simple, is that most women have blokes in their life. They have a husband who they hopefully like. They have a son who they want to be happy.

They have a father that was probably on balance quite nice to them and stuff. So then, once you start demonising, you actually lose the broad audience because women don't necessarily want to think all of the men that they know are potential, you know, sex offenders or in the case of Gillette, some weird kind of male version of a fucking Stetford wife. So that is where, I suppose, in terms of a mass audience, you'll always find pushback. And, you know, in the book, I've sort of said that even if people, you know, if you're not a bloke yourself, or if a woman is married to more of a, you know, a less sort of blokey guy, or perhaps an effeminate type guy

or if you're, you know, you're gay or you will know blokes, right? Blokes will be in your life whether it's brothers, uncles, husbands or anything. You know, so it's trying to make sense of that tribe, really. You know, it's a big part of society, blokes. It's a big subset of the man.

It's not like a lad. A lad is different. Lad is usually young and does all this shit, you know. A geyser will often, you know, walk like that. A bloke, I suppose, is a bit, more calmer, you know. He wants to be a dependable presence for the people that he loves. He'll do lots of lifts for people. He'll pick people up from airports and stuff. That's all very blokey stuff. A bloke will, you know, you'll fix the washing machine, all that. Steady on. I mean,

I fixed the washing machine. Did you? That's bloke points right there. How did you do that? I looked up on YouTube, obviously. But, but I looked up the parts, ordered it in, took the thing a part in front of my son, put the new part in. Mate, yeah. Did you feel your testosterone rise? Do you see the respect that they're both looking at with me? Yeah, that's right. You just talks.

No, no, no, no, no. I think to build and fix is a big part of what we feel compelled to do. Now, look, are our generation ever going to be up with our granddad who would, you know, like changing a spare tire by the side of the road? We're not doing that. Let's be honest. That's very unlikely to happen. But, well, you know what was interesting?

no constant thing was I found out, you know, in the process of writing this book, that the, the car manufacturers now routinely no longer put spare wheels in the boot of a car. And I just thought, that's just a massive slap in the face for us, because they've looked to us and gone, nah, you lot, you're not about that life. You go to sit, you're going to sit, you go and sit away for the nice AA man, read, read your, read your family a poem, you know, because this is, and I thought that's actually a shame because the trust that your son will have had in you. Yeah. From seeing that moment.

And again, and this is what you find in the modern age is the short, the terms and conditions and the caveats. It's not to say women can't fix washing machines. It's not to say women can't never. It's just that I think that, you know, when it can't... How many women, Jeff, statistically speaking, do you think have ever fixed a washing machine? Well, based on pornography,

I'm not sure the washing machine ever gets fixed by anybody. But it's good to see you done your research, mate. Well, porn's another area, isn't it? But, look, let's come back to the Gillette team, because I think it's really interesting because to me, in the 90s, the Gillette adverts

were actually basically telling men exactly how to be healthy men. If you remember those 90s, Gillette adverts, it was all guys or fathers, you know, hugging their son

on his wedding day, a guy going out to work, his wife does, helps him with the type, he looks after his baby. It was all about what you're actually supposed to be. You'd look at that

and you go, you know, one day when I grow up, I'm going to have a wife and I'm going to have a son and I'm going to have a job and I'm going to do all these things and I'm going to compete and I'm going to do well, bring home the bacon and eventually my son will get married and I'll be there and that's kind of what you're supposed to do as a bloke, as a guy, as a man. And now we're in a position where it's like instead of telling men how to be healthy, it's like, no, no, this is what's wrong with you. It's incredible transformation really. And I don't think it's beneficial to men or women. Well, yeah, that's the problem, isn't it? There's always a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like, a relationship between a man and a woman, there is of course advice, criticism, rebuke instruction, but it's got to be part of a pie chart, isn't it, where a certain amount of it is that, there's praise, celebration. It did seem like the pie chart kind of circled around. And a lot

of the advice, you know, when it comes down to, you know, how men should be with their friends, you know, you've got to talk more, you've got to share more. And I think, I do think that men do need to do that more. But I also think that men and women both have an issue around that. I think men need to share a bit more their friends maybe women need to share a bit less can we have that conversation you don't have to tell your friend every single intimate detail

of what's going on in your relationship with a man because it's a real dividing line that I think I in my whole life I don't think I've and there is a stereotype that men used to criticise their wives I would not sit with you boys at a night out and just start trashing my wife

I would think that you would think less of me as a man if I did that you would think that he's treacherous he's disloyal you know whereas it literally is the other way around, broadly speaking for women. It's a bonding exercise. If two of them are trashing their husband, the third one might just make something up just to be part of the game.

Just so he kicked me in the shinsy up. Did he? No, I just wanted to have something to add to the chat. I didn't want to seem outside of the group. And I think that there's always this idea that men need to emotionally correct to where women are, whereas I think there's actually somewhere in the middle, and it needs to go on on both sides. There is a point with blokes where I love going away as a group of blokes and talking absolute bollocks, you know.

It's so, it's so, that's what rejuvenates me, is to just not think of anything serious for a while. But there are points in my life where, you know, a mate of mine would be talking about his third kid, and I'll be thinking, third, I didn't, I don't remember the second, you know. And that's not cool. I think we could do, and that's not like for any great empathic reason. It's just, it's not unreasonable to just be broadly speaking up to,

date with the main features of your pal's lives, because if the shit hits the fan for them, you want to at least know the name of the woman that left him. It's true, and I think what people don't acknowledge as well is that there is a fundamental difference, like you said, between men and women, and we need different things from our friendships. I want to be able to talk to my mates about, you know, things that are not going well in my life, but when I see my mates, like you said, I see it as a break from reality. I want to go, I want to have a laugh,

I want to just talk about, you know, life, whatever it is. I don't particularly want to talk about me, if I'm honest. You know, there'll be banter, there'll be fun. Why is that, Francis? See, if you did that on a night out, so what's going on with you? I haven't made me tense. Yeah, it did.

It made you tense, you said. You made me tense. I don't like it. I mean, what it needs to be is there needs to be a long... Do it while... I don't like it. I don't. It's feelings.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I think that there's definitely, but there's obviously merit in both approaches. Yeah. And that's, but maybe the argument I'm making is that we've got to a point, we're acting like there's no merit in one approach

and total merit in the other approach. Because, you know, I think you can analyse problems into the ground. I also think that there are potential benefits of, you know, blokes have nicknames for each other. Oh, yeah. When you're mean to another bloke, part of when he's a mate,

it's because there's trust, right? You can withstand it. And I think that, you know, I don't know many women that have nicknames for each other. Probably more working class women have nicknames for each other. Or if they're on a WhatsApp group for a hendoo,

like if there was people who were a bit late paying would go, come on you fucking morning. You know, use the kind of language that bloats would say to sort of chivy people up and put a rocket under someone. I think that there is a tendency to be more agreeable, you know, as being discussed quite a bit.

I just think that neither are correct. They're just different approaches. I don't understand where one became bad, healthy, toxic, and the other one just escape scrutiny. And it's also as well that women don't want this kind of new man that is being presented to them. They may say they do, but they don't really. The thing is, I think a lot of women don't even say that they do, but what's happened is a small group of people who are more influential in terms of media and sort of society,

they're imposing their values on everybody else. And by the way, you know, if you remember our Rob Henderson interview in terms of like luxury beliefs. Quite a lot of them will still have a manly bloke at home, but they'll fucking bang on in The Guardian about how all the men need to, you know, cut their dicks off or whatever. Yeah. You know, it's kind of... There was an article that all men needed to cut their dicks off. Probably. I mean, I bet you if we look at it. I'm surprised it took the Guardian that long to get to that. That feels like the apex. You know what I mean. You know what I mean? Like, it's a kind of mismatch

between I think what most women actually want and what elite culture is telling them they're supposed to want is my sense of it. You know what's interesting. Just then, I suddenly thought, Like, are we sound like moaning blokes here. You know, like just sitting in, this is the actual only time the blokes do talk. Yeah. Podcasts or shows like this with each other. But that does bring me to another aspect of being a bloke,

is that you're not expected to moan, you know. You're not. And that's where something, I guess, like the concept of man flu comes from, which is, you know, there's obvious scientific research as to why when viruses strike men, it can feel more virulent to them. But even as I'm saying that, I guarantee there's some women watching this game.

you know especially especially if they've given birth fair enough right if you've given birth you're out you're out of this equation but it's kind of strange because you're supposed to you're encouraged to talk more about your feelings right and then like you feel really ill shut the fuck up about that you know so it's obviously selective and I get that because you know if you're in a family situation it's and this in a way is where the small C conservative mindset comes from is born a pragmatism if you're in a family situation where there's a woman who's likely to be doing more caregiving for the children you know know, running of the house, that stuff.

An ill man is really inconvenient in the first place, right? Secondly, him moaning about it, really, you just don't have time for it. So I can see why this is evolved. But also, the idea of acting like man flu isn't a thing. It sounds very close to the idea of gaslighting, isn't it? You feel something's happening, you report that it's happening, somebody tells you it's all in your mind. You know...

Well, sorry, Francis, just to finish that thing. I think... I know what you mean about sounding like we're moaning. I really do. And I think Manfully is actually a very good example of where understanding of the differences between the sex is very helpful. Like my wife understands that if I'm ill, I feel, I don't feel well, right? And we work around that likewise with her, there's certain things that she finds more difficult than I do. And I know that about her and I'm there to support her with that in the same way. Do you know what I mean?

By what? Just going out for a couple of days until she feels better. Exactly. Just go out, have a few drinks with my mates. She's right. Yeah, yeah. Wait for the weather to pass. Yeah. I think. I mean, yeah, there are just simple, like you say, I guess there are, there is biology there. I mean, women can see a broader range of colours. So this will manifest in conversation. Like, I don't believe that I've ever met a woman that would describe a colour as black. You say, oh, that's black, midnight blue, navy blue.

Anything other than black. They just see a wider spectrum of colour. So they sometimes might think a bloke's being ignorant when he says something's green when it's turquoise. It's just we're not seeing things on the same level. And there's even differences in the way that men kind of see. You know? Or certainly, I realize now in the comment section, this might be contestable,

but there's certainly educated people that believe that men are better with literally with tunnel vision, whereas women are better with peripheral. That would make a lot of sense. All of this is basically explaining why I can never see anything in the cupboard, right? This is a complex way of me trying to, this whole book is me trying to justify to my wife as to, I just can't see shit.

When she's just going to look for something? I don't get it, but, you know, if I can look to the horizon a lot easier, and maybe there's some sort of genetic, legacy for that. And what we don't talk about with men as well, and look, it's important for women, but I think sometimes it's just more important for men is exercise. You know, like, you see so many men now who talk about, you know, depression and all of these things. And of course, you need to man up according to Jeff Norcock. Yeah, yeah, you need to fucking deal with it,

mate. Yeah, sweat it out. Sweat it out. Sweat depression out. Yeah, just go. But if you go to the gym and you have a good session. I mean, you feel so much better and more in control of your life. I think that there are a lot of women who are mothers that would probably say it would be nice to have the time to go to the gym and stuff like that. I think broadly what you're saying is true, if you look generally at how much space in people's lives they make for exercise, men would make more. I think, you know, if you look around any gym, competitive sports. Now, you could argue that that is a construct, but then also, you know, it's not a fucking construct. No, no, no, no, but that's what I mean is like if things are a reality for long enough,

it's like male and female beauty, right? People would just say, well, female beauty is venerated because that's the kind of stock that we put on it. You go, it's also been around a while, that idea, right from the earliest pain in and stuff, right from the way that women look at each other. There is something about women that I think,

you know, and this is from my prism of heteronormitivity, cis. I don't know, does cis come into it, possibly? But is that, I just think there's something nicer. You can have such thing, oh God, I realize I'm going to get ridges this. But as a design classic, right? Where am I going to this? The design of the original Stormtroopers outfit, it just looks fucking great, right?

You're saying women are Stormtroopers. I'm saying women are fascist stormtroopers. So it is also possible. You sound like you're ready for a divorce, mate. So it could also be possible. This is fucking great. It should also be possible that maybe just one of the bodies, broadly speaking, looks a lot nicer on average than the other. Jeff is on his last ever tour, starting in September.

Or I'll be on tour forever. Or he'll be on tour forever. But, I mean, you know, in terms of the marriage thing, it's just this riddle, isn't it? You've got these two human beings, same species, you go, you're different. And sometimes it'll result in a row. But because of that difference, sometimes you don't understand it. But then sometimes the difference is the source of attraction, isn't it? If you look at, like, what a lot of women, they like big arms, you know, because that's the thing that they generally speaking don't have.

Men will, like, curves, because we don't. don't, well, the ones we do, no one likes to look of over the time. And I, you know, I also think that curves are, if you look at atoms, planets, suns, orbits, we sort of know that curves really are what makes life goes around, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's an interesting theory, Jeff. Eggs, all the, I don't know if there's been peer of you. All the good stuff is curves. But the point that I'm making is, is, the difference is the basis of attraction. 100%, yeah. For a hell of a, you know, for heterosexuals most, more generally, right? So, so if you try to chip away at that difference, what happens to attraction?

Well, completely. And the thing, my wife and I, we've been married over 20 years now, that we found the most useful is reading stuff and understanding what the differences are and how to navigate them. So John Gray, who we've had on our show, he wrote that very famous book, Men Are From Mars, Women are from Venus,

and he's updated it since and whatever. And that's really all it is, is understanding the psychological and physical differences between men and women. And we're talking about depression earlier, There's quite a lot of evidence now that one of the reasons that men are not really getting treated for depression nearly as well is that the help men need is completely different to the help women need when they are depressed. Yes. So they need a different solution, but quite often it's a solution that's geared towards women that is then sort of mapped onto men and it just doesn't work very well because men need a different thing.

Men need to feel competent and powerful as a result of whatever therapy they do. Whereas for women, it's more about being heard and unpacking certain issues and whatever. Do you know what I mean? I do. I mean, I remember I'm a big believer in counseling and talking therapies. You know, it took things for me to get quite bad with me where it was just the last sort of throw over the dice. But I remember the first counselling session I went for, the woman who's the therapist sort of said, you know, it's okay to feel weak. I was like, weak, well, you mentioned a weak word for.

Why did you mention that? I don't want to feel weird. I don't know. And I was gone. you know, within not too long at all. I wanted a more, you know, like the head tilt in empathy doesn't really work for me. So if I'm talking about sad things that happen

and someone says, that must have been very tough for you. And maybe this is what's wrong with me. I don't know, maybe I need to acknowledge it was tough. But that, I just need to almost verbalise what happened because maybe I don't reflect on it as much. So a lot of the early counselling I did was just sort of narrativising things, telling the story of what happened.

And they go, oh yeah, that was what I hated about that. That was what made me angry. And eventually I found the right therapies. And it's interesting, you know, like, there are a lot of blocs that are still resistant to talking therapies. I think they're a great thing to get you off the floor. I also think having done them for a lot of years, there is a point where, and this is maybe a more bloke you take, that your past is just your past and you just got to suck it up

a little bit. Well, you've got to go through the process first. And that's why I'm a big fan of that stuff as well. Yeah. You've got to process whatever happened. But then you've got to just accept, you know, your life was your life. you're moving on and what is it that you're going to do in the future. I think that's the path for really.

You might have to go over like dates and stuff that make you reflect. But yeah, you go, all right, that was who my parents were. These were their good things. These were the bad things. The idea that you constantly retell that story. The concept, I think, for a bloke of self-pity is an important one. The idea, the tiny violin is always there in our minds. Am I, you know, because we've had blokes around us that will call it out often enough.

And in the book, the very last chapter is I'm talking about, is it okay for men to cry in public? And my view is very much that it's better if we do in private, which sounds really toxic. But, you know, I have a good cry regularly, but I just think that that's where I can do it properly. The problem is the process of there being witnesses to my tears changes the function of it, right?

And also, I just think men don't cry as often statistically. So when we do do it, we're not match fit. So we look horrific. Like, it just looks awful. It's like this fucking Hulk-like metamorphosis. Whereas, you know, I think, you know, the women I've known in my life, my mum could cry and, like, still fold clothes, you know? So there's definitely a different ability there.

And I think that male tears hold a different status in society. So Novak Djokovic cried after his Wimbledon final defeat, right? It's nice to see my son still there, still smiling, you know. I love you. Thank you for supporting me and I'll give you a big hug and we can all love each other. Thank you.

Novak Djokovic, ladies and gentlemen. Something within him broke and we're like, that's wonderful. We have this strong guy, this athlete that's got all the way, he's earned this. But if he cried like that after the quarterfinal, we'd be like, okay, mate, you know. Yeah, it's a bit much, yeah.

Just get back to the locker room. Somebody put a towel over his head. And you could say that that is toxic or anything, but it's always, that's really, you know, I don't think you can completely ignore the base reasons why that emotional impulse exists in the first place. So again, it's like you say, counselling. It's working with what is there in blokes, really,

and what is there in blokes is different, and the language of therapy can sometimes seem a bit alien. Yeah, it's so important to find a good therapist because part of what I think in the process of moving on, is to acknowledge what's happened, accept it, so and then accept what's happened, and then put things in place in order to help you move on. Constantly revisiting the same trauma,

all you're doing after a while is just picking it a scam, and you're not letting yourself heal. Yeah, I think that people find that over time. I mean, I suppose that there are, that's where our friendship groups could come into it a bit more, maybe if it was like, you know, a pit stop as so, Not a full, like, kind of like new engine, but just the tire change with each other, like when we go out for a beer.

I mean, one of the things I spoke about in the book as well is about beer and the process of going for a pint and why that appeals to bloke. So again, it's this really surface level thing. You know, it's a good question. Why do men like beer? They do, you know. Here's an interesting one, right, for the liberal elite, right, and you can play along at home if this is like a tea time quiz.

What do you think is the top-selling lager in the UK? It's going to be something shit like Fosters. Constantine? He's trying to suppress his... Carling? He's got it. Carling. After all these years, you know?

And it's really interesting. There's almost a metaphor for blokeiness, right? I think that's been the way since more or less than 90s. So that just shows you how stable the state of blokeness. I like what I like. I don't like change. Yeah. I like what I like.

I don't really even like it. That's how much of bloke I am. But I'd imagine that maybe you're more metropolitan elite type viewers might have gone on. Nercoy or toffee-flavored. IPA and stuff. But if you look outside of London, Manchester, Newcastle, you get out there, think of all these pubs, all these backwater pubs that have just been

serving Carlin all these years. And, you know, just drinking a lager and sitting in a pub, it's one of the few times men can sit opposite each other without a game or a distraction, you know, because you've got a pint, you can get away, you know. I've never go for a meal

with just enough of bloke. Just way too fucking tense, right? Just sitting there. But whereas, you know, a pub will have We've been for a meal together. Yeah, and I felt tense. I'll tell you exactly where it was. It was in Shrewsbury and you and I deliberately picked, you know, like the one where you're against the wall.

Yeah, yeah. Because I knew it'd make me feel tense. So I had better sight lines. Yeah. It's mad what goes on in our head. But a pub is good because it has distractions, you know, so you can really, you know, there might be sport and there might be a snooker table. For whatever reason, those, you know, blokes tend to 10.

Well, one theory I heard about that is that men, you know, used to spend most of the time that they would spend together hunting. And so they naturally sort of feel more comfortable facing in the same direction next to each other. Right. Whereas women will tend to be sort of in a huddle type of thing because that's what they'd be doing. Do you know what I mean?

That's just too much scrutiny, man. Yeah. Just they might see the truth. Yeah. If they're looking at me like that. Yeah. And it's, you know, you see it as well with, you know, with, and I know football fans can sometimes be obnoxious, but I do think it plays a vital role in society.

Yes. for men to be able to go together to watch a game, you know, to bond, to say horrible stuff that they would never say within the confines of their own home. And it's a pressure valve, isn't it? It's a purge. I mean, it is a purge of a form of primal scream therapy. But what's interesting, and I mentioned this, you know, in the book, is about football clubs.

Like, people often miss out the element of a club, right? That was how they originally formed. Like, Aston Villa and Birmingham City were formed in that area around that time because there was a lot of kind of, you know, sort of feckless young men that were getting involved in the various activities, you know, trying to keep them out of gangs like the Peeky Blinders, essentially.

Let's have a place for these young fellas to go. So there's a community element. And I think blokes do invest a lot into that. So when you see the stadium, you know, when the clubs get a new stadium and you see these gross absolute silverbacks outside, outside they're crying. It does look a bit odd to some people.

But like there's Wayne, There's so much invested in that. You know, it might be where their father took them. And, you know, I do speak a lot about sport in the book. Of course, you know, female participation in sport is going up dramatically. But overwhelmingly, you know, it's something that men seem to feel that they need in their lives.

Maybe it's like a coded conversation, isn't it? You know. And one of the aspects of being a bloke, a really key aspect of being a bloke is that you think the game's changed. Yeah. It's not what it was. No, it's not what. It's not what.

I'll tell you what, next year it would be worse. You know, to some point, I guess, when you were about 13, where you thought sport was perfect. Yeah. Because you just found it. And ever since then, it's been getting progressively worse. Every bloke thinks that. There's almost no, you know, maybe one or two exceptions.

But, you know, I suppose once you get Saudi regimes running football clubs, maybe it really has got worse. But it's also as well, what's really interesting, and we're talking about sport getting worse, which is something that I think is. No sun tan cream. Sports getting worse. Yeah.

I just tick every box. But it's the lack of physicality in sport. You do, there's a part of me it goes, yeah, feminization of society. Look at them, one little tap. They're rolling over. I remember two-footed, not even a yellow card, mate. Well, I mean, but interestingly,

you look at some of the things of sport are contact, hugging, hugging strangers, singing, it's fair, you know, having a sing-song, it's not the most overtly masculine thing that you could think of. And if you think of football clubs that their most notable songs are quite emotional.

Like Liverpool, you'll never walk alone. Man City sing Blue Moon. Yeah. West Ham's, I'm forever blowing bubbles. I love that song. It's so incongruous. But yet there must be a reason for that because in sport, like you say,

there's all these men that go in there. There's this balloon that's just way in a burst. Yeah, it is. You know, I love that song because for our American viewers and people, you know, who watch sports, particularly Americans, it's about celebrating success. West Ham's song is called, I'm Forever Blown Bubbles. And one of the lyrics in it is, the bubbles they fly so high,

but like my dreams, they fade and die. Fortune's always right. I mean, it's so enigmatic. Yeah. It is really odd. And also it should be said for the American audience, so West Ham would be perceived to have quite a blokey, sort of manly fan base as well. So, you know, a lot of the book is about that.

You know, why do we like curry? Why do we like pints? Why do we like sport? But try not to just do it in a too basic a way, to genuinely scratch beneath the surface. So why do we like courage? Well, curry, because it involves jeopardy, I think. Partly again, it's a routine as well.

It's a roll of the dice. It can be a roll of the dice. I mean, I think that one, you don't have to organise it. I don't know if anybody's ever pre-booked to curry. And if it is, it's probably one of your more middle classmates that starts. Oh, yeah, you know, the chef trained in goer. You're like, all right, Tim. but generally you just rock up

and like you know the great the blokes that work at curry houses are just the most like sort of practical minded people do they have you booked have you ever been honest at at curry house and they often don't even say like

do you want a beer they go how many cobras how many popadums right because they know exactly what you're going for you're going for the same fucking thing you had the last 20 years and then and then there's just this element of

self-expression one in how you deal with the popadoms in the first place you know, how you, whether you smash them or whether you try and get a lot of different things on like a pizza, whether it's just one thing. And then what curry you choose, you know. And a lot of young people, you know,

that bravado element of going for a... Well, first it was like Vindaloo, but then do you remember there was a far? Yes. There was this murmurings of this spicy alternative called a file, and I had a file. And I don't think I've ever been the same since. I just think I'd messed up something in my intestines.

Jeff Norkot, broken by a file. Broken by a fault. But, you know, I used to eat lime pickles straight from the thing, just as like a show of bravado to the troop. I mean, I did often think that they should just, like, do some sort of Rennie type shot in a curry house. You know, like a liqueur, but like they're saying, you know, you can order it secretly under the bar,

because I'm sure I did my intestines damage. But there is something like boisterous about a curry that obviously appeals. So it's another one of those surface things. where you go, it's really easy to sell, well, blokes are basic because they like curry. But why? Why do they like curry? And because, yeah, you can sort of prove your metal. There's an element of risk involved.

Yeah. Well, Jeff, it's great to have you on to talk about this stuff. And I hope everybody reads the book, The British Blocke Decoder. But let's take a few minutes before we move on to locals to talk about politics. Because it's obviously you, as a comedian, you comment on stuff and make jokes about it. We've had a bunch of lefties on the show in recent weeks and months. as we build up to what will be almost certainly a Labour government at this point coming down the pipe. What do you think about that?

Well, there'll be the biggest party, I would have thought. I don't know what could happen. I mean, governments generally get voted out when the economy's bad, and the economy's bad, and it will continue to be bad. I mean, all the pointers are 13 years, you know, there have been scandals, which, you know, some have been overblown, some have been valid. But I think the main thing is that people feel skint, and historically people tend to get voted out.

And also Labour of sort of, it's just a weird thing that's happened in British politics, whereby all the grown-ups are in the room, right? Which I always think it's a really tragic way to refer to yourself with the grown-ups in the room. Makes you think of will from the in-betweeners. That's sort of like the kind of thing that he would say. But they talk about the last, you know, the Brexit-type era of politics is the least edified in British political history.

And there's some truth in that. Johnson hiding in a fridge, Corbyn and, you know, his issues. I do think there's also something unedifying about a prime minister who's currently just looking for a grift, you know, literally Rishi is going down the list of diminishing returns to motorists. I'll be the motorist guy. Yeah.

I'll be the guy with cars. So he's been, the boats. I'll be about the boats, you know, because there's so little left off to 13 years in power for him to attach himself to. But equally on the other side, you've got the leader of the opposition who's just gleefully auctioning off

every last principle and policy he's ever had. And yet you get people like, you know, Alistair Campbell and Roy Stewart. thank God the grown-ups are back in the room because this is, it's just a better quality period of politics. You go, well, the optics might be better. I'd agree with that.

But the underlying principles of what's happening as we come up on the next election are arguably, maybe not just as bad, but they're not great, are they? And there is something, I mean, I wasn't going to talk about politics as much on the next tour, basic bloke. You know, some British bloke decoded basic,

but I'm trying to start a Marvel cinematic style in the blocosphere. But I do think politics has become funny again I think it's a lot funny than it was under Corbyn and Johnson because you've got this star who's this He obviously has got the voice which is a bit ridiculous But also him and him and Sunak they just look like they They just, Sunnac just looks like he just won junior apprentice

Yeah, you know just sitting there grinning Just as he seemed I don't think it should be problem to be small And be prime minister All to be young but I think being young and small You know Yeah Does look like a child And he's got any way his ankle

swingers as well. He wears ankle swingers. If you can't take a man seriously with ankle swing. And he's so keen, you know, it's a bit, the keenness is a bit much. And then Stama, who just looks like a sort of life insurance salesman that decided he wanted to be king. And this, you know, two, it just feels like two bald men fighting over an ideological comb, you know, like, there's so little

between them. Now, the truth of the matter is, is that they both represent politics. I'm sent a right. So, in terms of what they actually broadly will represent, it's not a million miles away from But in terms of politics to get excited about, politics to motivate, politics to have a discussion about, it's absolutely bereft. I mean, the idea that, you know, the same group of people who would say that you should never lie to win elections, you know, and it now seem to have forgotten that principle. And they're just, every time Starma junks and other ideas, well, it's just what you've got to say to win an election.

Oh, right, because before you were saying that that was basically fascism. But the thing that I find really interesting about Labor is that you ask me a single Labor policy and I'm someone who followed politics and is a politics nerd, I don't think I'd be able to tell you one. All that Labor have really done is just stood back and let the Conservatives make an ass of it.

That's really all they've done. Yeah, and I think that you could understand that strategically up to a point. It's almost been like Labor, because people forget that Tories were... still ahead going into October 2021 and then the Owen Patterson thing happened then party gate happened each thing dropped and then Liz Trust happened so what Labor have in terms of a poll lead is effectively like a surprise inheritance from a

mad uncle like their life was just going along it wasn't really that good and then there was suddenly a letter from a lawyer arrived you've won a 15-point lead in the polls from nothing you've done and that that worries me actually because to get a poll lead it means that then they've got this issue which is We best just not fuck it up. Let's not do anything and let's not say anything. And that was fair for a time. I do think a year out with the polls as they are.

It's not unreasonable to ask, to say to Labour, what would you do? And the answer increasingly seems to be roughly the same but with less scandals. Yeah, and also as well, there's that mental side of the... And I've voted Labor, there's that mental side of the left. And Stama has done a pretty good job, actually, of kind of margin.

But they've always there ready to come roaring back with their demented ideas and policies, which when you see things, you know, like the Tavistock, et cetera, et cetera, it really worries me. Well, that's the question, I suppose, is like Labor have got these big institutions. And you go, to what extent can one person at the centre who doesn't yet have a mandate isn't that popular, really, doesn't infuse or inspire anybody? To what extent can he be bigger than the NEC, you know, or the unions or the Labor, parliamentary party, all of those three things are still well to the,

maybe not economically left to the country these days, but maybe culturally to the left. So that is, I guess, if they're wanting a vote of somebody like me, you think, could you lend Labor your vote? Go, who wouldn't be in power once? I could absolutely see the situation where Labor winner landslide

and then junk Starmer after 18 months because they would think, right, it's enough time to get a new person in, enacting policies that we really want to do, and then win the next election based on, well, they wouldn't, but that's what they think would happen. You know, I don't think that the, weirdly, the sort of main pledges of the Corby Manifesto are still a big guiding force for a lot of the left.

And I think the British public probably agree with a lot of them, but not all at the same time. The problem with the people on the hard left is like, let's fucking do it all. And you go, all right, maybe nationalise the trains, maybe no profit on water. Let's do those now and see how it goes. They're like, to fucking do all of them.

Let's take it all back in the state control. And I think that, you know, Starm was shrewd enough to see that the public weren't ready for that. They still aren't ready for that. But that's my wonder is that, you know, obviously if you won a big election, there would be a mandate just for having been voted in. I could just, if there's a way of putting a bet on that, that Labor would win an election and then junk Stama, I'd put that bet on it. That's interesting. And one of the things as well is, I remember the first time we had you on, we talked about a working-class Tory voter. And I was sort of saying it's a bit unheard of when you were actually no, you know, Monday or,

and whatever. And I think one of the things that has often attracted people from that background to voting for a Thatcher, let's say. It's the idea of aspiration, it's the idea that we're going to build an economy in which if you put your shoulder to the wheel,

you're going to do well. Do you see that from either party on the table at the moment? Well, if you look at what the toys have done, right? Going right back to 2010, you could make a sort of a conservative party promo or an election. sort of leaflet based on a very left-wing agenda, right? They could say that they've reduced the amount dramatically

that you can get in terms of dividends, you know. They've actually, the first time I really heard about tax avoidance was in the early years of the coalition in 2010. Remember the boycott Starbucks? A lot of that came from Cameron and Osborne's rhetoric. You know, they weren't saying boycott. But it came from stuff that they were saying. If you look at the way that they've changed the rules

around the expenses that you can claim as second landlords, they've literally given them people money through, COVID, you know, they've put up taxes. You could honestly make like this really great banging left-wing poster for the Conservative Party, but they're, they're slightly embarrassed about that, you know, in the same way that Labor would be slightly uneasy, some of the more right-wing things they've done. So it's a really interesting thing where people talk about how right-wing, you know, it's always the worst right-wing government in history, according to the left. And, you know, culturally, I guess, you know, with some of the stances on immigration, culturally. But the

thing is stances, but they're not actually doing anything. No, no, rhetoric. Some of the rhetoric, you could argue. What they've actually achieved on immigration, not really. But if you talk about actual economics, nothing could be further from the truth. And it just seems to me like we're in this place where whatever the problem is, there's only one answer, which is more government interference in everything. Do you know what I mean?

And I know you're someone who sort of talks about the Nanny State. And I don't even mean like the government is deciding how much tax to put in your wheatobics or whatever. I mean, you know, when COVID comes along, let's do it, when gas prices go up, the government comes. It's sort of like every big problem. You never, ever, no one is ever responsible for their own lives, really, because when you fall, the government's always there to, like, pick you up. You're like a little child, do you know what I mean? I've definitely noticed that since COVID, like, the answer is always more government spending, you know, the idea that even with pay-rise settlements, really, you go, sometimes we just,

we get a bit poorer because of what's happening. Right. You know, sometimes we might get richer because of how the economy has been performing. But the problem with COVID is it drew this sort of like year zero. If anything bad happens, the government need to sort it out. And, you know, the effects of that are obvious with inflation. Everything that people said would cause inflation has caused inflation, right? And then people say, well, let's have more of those things.

It's insane. And it has made me lose quite a lot of respect for the Conservative Party. I feel like there were certain key principles during COVID, that they had a real gut instinct on, one of which was not shutting the schools, right? I really think that they knew that was fucking terrible for the academic development of those children. God knows how many families got divorced.

And they were told at the time. They were told, and then we find out latterly through some of these WhatsApp that part of it was because they wanted to avoid a fight with Nicholas Sturgeon. So, you know, I don't know, I don't think I'm in a place to vote labor. It's very hard for me to consider that. But when you talk about voting conservatives,

your party gate is one thing, cake, you know, hypocrisy. That policy alone and the amount of people they had an impact on, I find it very hard to get past that with the Conservatives. They knew what the right thing to do was, but they shut the schools. They're right. They shut the schools the first time. Extraordinary circumstances. But when it happened the second time, I was genuinely stunned and let down.

Yeah. And look, also as well, and I can't believe I'm going to say these words, but I'm going to say them as a Remainer. I don't think I can forgive Labor for Brexit for just the way that they ignored their heartland, their community, the people that they purported to represent. And then you've got someone like Mick Lynch come along and they all start worshipping Mick Lynch

and go, isn't he brilliant? Hang on, mate, he's a dialing the wall Gammon Brexiteer. So at what point did he stop being a racist and he'd become a face for the left that you all love? Well, yeah, I mean, yeah. Is he, is Gammon? What is Gammon? Well, white working class, you know.

And a bit older. A bit older, a bit older, a shade, you know. Pinkish skin. Yeah, I'm part of Gammon. You've got hair, mate. I'm going to hair, man. Dinosaur is one thing that I'm increasingly called. But going back to your point,

I get, yeah, those were a bunch of criticism that were latterly applied to some people. I think the thing with Mick Lynch, it was interesting for me, because I like the way the guy communicates. Yeah, so do I. Very effective union man. My dad was a union man.

My dad was a union man. But it was suddenly funny, like, oh, guys like Mick Lynch are back in fashion, but if you think this. And then it's like, but what about what Mick thinks? Mick thinks about Brexit. They're like,

you know, we all have our blind spots. Yeah. They didn't want to talk about that. But a lot of what he said about Brexit was, you know, incredibly valid.

I think when it comes to Labor's stance on Brexit, they've latterly realised, you know, they, I mean, Stimer was the architect of it. That's the irony.

And a lot of people on the hard left know this, right? I'm not telling anything they don't know. He'd come up with these sort of semantic straight jacket, which was right. We've got the six tests of Brexit. But if it delivers all this, then we'll support it.

And one of them was like the reintroductions of unicorns into the wild. There was a whole bunch of things that weren't like sort of possible. So it's hard to take with Starva when you go, you've literally just done like a complete flip. And it's strange because I now have a bit of empathy for the Corbinista supporters. Because it's just so rich coming from him, who literally led the party towards a position of a second referendum where Remain was an option, which was effectively, you know, to subvert.

You could absolutely argue that Brexit was the wrong thing. But I just think that that weird period where people thought that people could vote for a thing and that the thing might not happen without even being tried, that seems like a strange time now. But Starma was a part of that. But the other side of it is that the Tories,

ever since, you know, Brexit, it just seems to become more European. That's the, you know, in terms of regulation and stuff, they were sort of sold Singapore on sea and it's now, what, Brussels on the Thames? is what, you know, so yeah, I mean, I think politically, if you come to the next tour, it's very much a plague on both their houses. Yeah, well, that is very apt for the moment that we're in, Jeff. And the final thing before we ask you, our last question and move on to locals, where we're continuing the conversation.

What do you want to happen in the next election? Because some people would say, well, look, the Conservative Party is not doing what it's supposed to be doing. They need a kicking so that they actually go away and rethink things. Yeah, possibly. I mean, I think the five years of labour, if it's the kind of labour that Starmer is suggesting, it might not be too bad. If it kind of flips early in the life of the government, there's a lot of damage that could be done in a short space of time. I think that it's hard, you know, I am sort of, I'm not tribally conservative, but I have voted conservative since 2010, but like a lot of people I've drifted away from that. You know, the honest answer, and this is not, you know, for somebody that's invested in politics, is that I honestly don't care that much who gets in

because I don't think it'll be that different. And I do wonder as well if actually, just from a social media point of view, it would be good to have five years of labour. So just for those people that have operated with complete hypothetical moral certainty for the last 13 years, that everything they voted for,

if that had happened, everything would have been fine. They get to sort of experience the sort of the burden of success, which is that you get held accountable for what you voted for because it's really interesting at a moment where, you know, it's particularly at the time

where the centre is sort of back in charge is that, and there's a sort of veneration of the John Major types in the new Labour years. People sort of forget the stuff that happened under New Labour. Very early into the life of the government, there was interviews about cash for questions, you know, there were people quitting, there was Mandelson, there was Iraq,

you know, there was all this stuff that's all way fucking bigger in some respects and anything that's happened in the last few years. So I think that Labour will find it hard once they get in, because you've never had more time of politicians in front, more news outlets, more people. Every time you put a minister in front of a camera, that's a fuck up waiting to happen, right?

So when we were kids, it was news at 10 and news at 6. Now it's all day long. You've always got people out there, just ready with that big size night to put your foot into it. In terms of leagues now, you've got more cameras, you've got more WhatsApp groups, more leagues. So I think the idea is that Labor will, well, they'll just do it roughly the same, but their conduct will be better. I think they might run a tight ship initially. But it's very hard to run stable government

in this kind of media age So I would think that Do you know sort of like mischievously There's a part of me that one wants to see that happen To remind people that bad conduct in government It can be non-binary And also just on a basic level I'd love to see you know all these accounts

That all they do all day is go Gras the Tories Oh the Tories I hate this fucking government What are you going to tweet about now? Because I'm sure that they would say oh, we will hold Labor's feet to the flames. I reckon they'll do that for about a month

and then it'll be back to photos of their lunch. Yeah, I'm sure. And lovely to hear you talk about your colleagues in the comedy industry, yeah. You know, actually, in that instance, I was thinking of those celebrities that have suddenly... Yeah, yeah, we know, we're not.

No one's listening to me anymore. Oh, you know this shit? The Tories. Five thousand likes. Good luck for me. Jeff, it's great to have you back on the show. We're going to continue the conversation on locals. where our audience have already submitted a bunch of questions for you.

But we always aren't in the same last question. Which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? I suppose, all right. Right, we always talk about how bad social media is and what a polluting effect that it's had on our discourse. I think that in years to come, we'll reflect on how rolling news was actually a bigger thing.

Because at that point, there was a time when the news was a thing that happened maybe three times a day. Once in the morning, once a lunchtime, early evening, late at night. The feel that there always has to be a story is really pollutant. And actually, the news discussion on social media is just an extension of that principle. There's always a story. There's always a trend. You know, you never get like, nothing's trending today. Nothing's big. And so I think that rolling news has ceded that idea and, you know, so then you have to almost drag things into the slipstream of big news that wouldn't have otherwise been worthy.

I mean, the stuff that gets called breaking news now. When I was a kid, it was like literally there had to be a coup. You know what I mean? They had to be a coup. And even if it was a bloodless coup, they go, well, maybe not today, you know? And depending on the geography, mate. Like south of Sudan, no one gives a shit. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there's obviously a proximity. Yeah, exactly. And in some reason, America. But, look, but yeah, I think that, you know, in history books, when they look forward, they'll probably think that rolling news was really a, a bigger deal in some respects. And also, just finally, more of a frivolous note,

is the true crime genre. I think the amount of money that's being made about murders. I mean, birds love all that, that. Oh, they fucking do. They, uh, I just find it genuinely weird, the amount of money that's made out of murder. Out of all the crimes, right, is the worst.

If you ask me, would I rather be sexually assaulted or killed? I'd probably take my chances with the sexual assault. And yet, murder on the Orient Express, a time to kill. Look at all the titles. If you just Google, film with the word, or kill in. I don't understand why. Women love it, mate.

They do. Our CEO here, Laura. Did I? Yeah, absolutely. She's got a channel called Unfathomable Crimes. She just bangs on about unsolved murders. And women love it. They do.

They absolutely love a psychopath. Okay, so maybe that's my next book. They fucking love a psychopath. Women absolutely love a psychopath. They do. They do. They do. They genuinely do.

I think it's a thing of like women want to find a bloke who is a psychopath, but not with them. Yeah. I can change him. Yeah. Yeah. Ted Bundy, if he'd been with me. Exactly. They love it.

They love it. I could change him, but about, that'll be, if there's any women that want to watch it, that's a great, a great podcast idea. I could change him where you take the worst serial killers in history and three women, put forward views of how they could have made him a different person in the forest. I could have tamed Fred West. I could have tamed Fred West. That wasn't that Rose West's biography?

Yeah. And it dark. Anyway. Perfect. Well, come over onto locals, but before you do make sure. you buy the book, the British bloke decoded, and of course basic bloke is the tour. Jeff will be in Edinburgh during the month of August and not going on tour around the rest of the country from September onwards. Make sure you do that. Follow us over to locals where we continue

the conversation. What's the biggest animal you think you can kill with your bare hands if you had to?