TRIGGERnometry - What's Causing the Trans Explosion? - Helen Joyce

Episode Date: January 9, 2023

SPONSORED BY: easyDNS - domain name registrar provider and web host. Use special code: TRIGGERED for 50% off when you visit https://easydns.com/triggered/ Helen Joyce is the author of 'Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality' and the director of advocacy for 'Sex Matters', a campaign group on a mission to re-establish that sex matters in rules, laws, policies, language and culture. Sign the petition to clarify the Equality Act: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243 Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ | Channel ID: UCo_8zzSxKeL3arKWVuP8wdQ Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. 00:00 Intro 05:18 Has Technology Affected the Number of People Transitioning? 08:40 Motivations for Transitioning: Gender-Nonconforming Children and Gay Adults 11:35 Why Aren’t We Able to Discuss the Trans Issue in an Open and Honest Way? 13:23 Gender Dysphoria & Boys Who Transition Later in Life 24:16 Have Previous Mental Health Issues Over Time Become Trans Issues? 30:18 The Trans Issue in the Prison System 43:25 How to Safeguard Children 51:14 Is the UK Making Progress? 1:01:16 What's the One Thing We’re Not Talking About Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of them was 23 and she had been very severely bulimic in her teenage years and had been hospitalized a few times because she was going to die otherwise. And then when she was 18, she unfortunately looked up online if it was possible to get your breasts removed without having breast cancer. And she found top surgery. And a week later, she had decided that she was a trans man. And when she went to a gender clinic, the therapist said to her,

that's why you're trying to starve yourself because you're not meant to have curves, was you're really a boy. And so she told her parents, and her parents were delighted because they had seen their daughter nearly die. And they were like, yeah, yeah, if this is going to save you, you do this. So she got her ovaries removed, her uterus removed. She took testosterone.

She was getting ready for phalloplasti, which is the most brutal surgery imaginable, where they take off an enormous chunk of either your leg or your arm and turn it into a fake dick. So she looked online then, you know, what do I do after a hysterectomy? Because she still felt terrible, because they lied to her about how easy all these operations are, hysteropies are really tough operations. And she found all these sites of women who had uterine cancer or that sort of thing. And they were very supportive.

She started talking to them. And then one day this sentence floated into her mind. And it was just how can an operation that has only done on women turn me into a man? And it was like the whole thing, the whole past five years just unwound. And she was back and she was like, all of this was nonsense. And I listened to her, tell this story. And I just sat there and I thought, oh, fucking hell. they are sterilizing gay kids.

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is somebody we've been keen to have on the show

for a very long time. She's the director of advocacy at Sex Matters and the author of Trans. A brilliant book that we do have but because she's one of our first guests in the new studio, it's in a box somewhere. But it is a brilliant book. Helen Joyce, welcome to Trigonometry.

Thank you for having me on. It's a real pleasure to have you on. For anyone who doesn't know who you are, tell everybody who are you, what's been your journey through life? How are you sitting here in that chair talking to us? Well, a long time ago, I was an academic. I studied mathematics, and then I became a journalist. And from 2005, until earlier this year, I worked at the economist doing various jobs. I finished with being Britain editor.

But during that time, I got interested in this strange new idea that men could be women and women could be men. And I eventually became so interested in that, I wrote a book about it. called trans when ideology meets reality, which came out now a year and a half ago. And then became so interested that I left that job and go and work with sex matters, which is a human rights organization, which focuses on sex-based rights. So the human rights that are sex-based, that require you to notice who's male and who's female. And that's what I'm going to keep doing. I'm not going back to the economist. That makes sense. Well, that's what we wanted to talk with you about.

However, as you know, we have had many, many people on the show to talk about this issue. And I suppose the curious thing about you is, is it your mathematics? background that you're sort of just like, you know, zero is zero and one is one. And like, I can't stand this. Because a lot of people are more flexible, perhaps, on these issues. That's exactly right. That is why I got into it. And that's not the usual way. Like, usually people are more pragmatic. I mean, I think I'm quite a pragmatic person, but I didn't start from there. People normally it's, they notice and they think what's happening in schools with indoctrination of kids, or they notice that there are men playing in women's sports because

they say they're women, or they notice that women's spaces like refuges and so on are under threat, or they just notice the sexism of saying that how you perform sex stereotypes is what makes you a man or a woman. And of course, I think all of those things too, but that wasn't what I noticed first. What I noticed first was that if you say trans women are women, that's logically equivalent to saying a woman is anyone who says that a woman. And that's a circular definition. So in mathematics, a circular definition doesn't get off the ground. Like if I just say, you know, a chair is anything that we define as a chair. I doesn't give you any idea what a chair is.

You actually need to give some outside input into the definition. And that bothered me because it just didn't seem right, but I didn't know for a while, like why, what sort of problems it would create. So for me, the journey in was that sort of, you know, highfalutin, whatever, intellectual journey. Like, you know, this doesn't sound right. This doesn't sound like something that you can base laws and policies and rules and regulations on, and so if proved.

If you destroy a core definition like that, it's amazing how it pops up all over the place in rules and regulations and laws. Because although we don't make many distinctions between men and women anymore, the way that we used to, like it used to be only men who could vote or only men who could own property or only women who could do this, that or the other,

there are still differences. Men are not women and women are not men. And those differences are reflected in law in places where they need to be. Maternity leave, rape crisis. centers, sports, those sorts of things. And we've broken all of those things and we're watching that breakage ripple out through an entire system of rules, regulations, institutions, governments, charities, all sorts. And it's quite horrifying. And where do you think this

comes from, Helen, because I'm quite persuaded by the argument that, and I don't hear many people making this argument, but I'm sort of thinking about more and more that it is the development of technology that allows people to, you know, transition more. more effectively, if you like, and to pass more as the other sex and so on, that sort of opened this up. And because of that, we're now in the position there are other people who go, well, it's the academics and the 60s. And where do you think this comes from? I think like all really interesting and strange phenomena, it's a perfect storm. Like a lot of things arrived at the same point together. I think there probably have always been people who have thought that they would

like to be the opposite sex or that they were meant to be the opposite sex. And we used to know, we'd forgotten, like, how that worked out, like how that happened. And so, you know, in the 70s and 80s, there were these prospective studies where they identified little boys who said ardently that they thought they were meant to be little girls. And they followed them into adulthood and what they were was gay, because there's a strong, very strong link between being really highly gender non-conforming in childhood, early childhood, and growing up to be gay. So those kids, they look around them, they're not born thinking I was meant to be a girl or I was meant to be a boy. they look around them and they think, why am I so different?

Why are people treating me like this? You know, why do I not fit in? Why does my dad drag me out to rugby matches and grab my Barbie doll away from me or whatever, you know? So those kids, they learn from the society that they're in that they should have been the opposite sex. There's always been that. And so some of those kids just grow up and they work out, they're gay and that's fine.

I mean, I should say it's not all that they're gay, but anyway, it's just like strong statistical link. So there was always that. And then along came medical technology that allowed, you know, some surgeries and so on, quite brutal surgeries and not terribly effective still. But anyway, those surgeries started. Then I do think the academics had something to do with it. You know, there's this whole move, you know, postmodernism, what they call the postmodern turn, which is when you stop thinking that words describe reality and you start thinking words create reality. And the thing is both of those things are true. You know, words do create reality. They think, They start wars. They make things happen. But they also describe reality. I can't just say any word means what I like

and still live in a world where, you know, trains run and operations are successful and, you know, that sort of thing. So the postmodern turn is like moving away from the reality and towards the words. And then they just get like kind of intoxicated on it and unmoored from anything. And then along comes the internet. And I would say that's the last of the pieces I would pick out. that in an internet world, in an online world, you forget that you're actually a physical being very easily.

Like you live through your avatar, you see people on screens, you're not doing manual labour, you know, we've delayed childbearing, people have fewer children, lots of people have no children. You just can actually pretend much more successfully that men and women are just more similar than they are. So yeah, I mean, that's not all of it by any means, by the book, if you want to know the whole story. But those are the bits I'd pick out to get us where we are,

where we say that there's no difference between men and women or that men and women are arbitrary categories that we can redefine as we wish. But Helen, there's also as well several strands to this, because the people or normally men who transition later on in life are very different, like we say, to young boys who want to transition, but also the young girls who then want to transition to be boys. That's a completely different thing entirely as well, isn't it? Men and women are different.

And their motivations for wanting to be the opposite sex are very different too. And then sexualities are different. Most people are straight. A few people are gay. Some people are on a spectrum of bisexuality in between. So those people are going to have different motivations as well. And it's funny how you see the differences between men and women more clearly when you look at men and women who don't want to be men and women. So I mean, by and large, the women who transition are lesbian, if they're adults, or their teenage girls.

who are going through adolescence and finding it tough. Adolescence always is tough. But for girls, you know, there's a whole, you know, it's earlier than it used to be. You may be 11 when men start gawping at your tits, and, you know, it's not very pleasant, and you think life would be easier as a boy. And then you look online and you say,

why do I feel so uncomfortable with my body? Why do I feel uncomfortable being me? And the answer you'll get as trans. Now, that wasn't true 10 years ago. 10 years ago, you got better advice. But now the advice is if you think you may be trans, you probably are. So that's that bunch. And then the little boys, yeah, I mean, they're very effeminate little boys and there's still a lot of homophobia out there. You know, there really are

people who look at a little boy in a dress who says that his favourite toy is a Barbie doll and think, hmm, we'll see about that. And then the adult men, I mean, you know, the fact is, probably three to five percent of men are erotic cross-dressers. But we knew that, you know, those surveys were done before this latest pretense that men can be women. They find out of find this an erotic idea to be a woman, to inhabit the role of a woman. You know, you would have kept that at the weekend and cross-dressing parties, maybe, you know, between you and your wife 20 years ago. Now you're stunning and brave and out that lady comes and you get, you know, you get societal plaudits for what is actually just an erotic interest. So are you saying

that some men or a lot of men who transition later on in life, it's an erotic thing for them. It's sort of a fetish almost. text every device you own, your phone, your laptop, your smart TV. If it connects to the internet, it should be protected. IP VANish encrypts your connection and masks your IP address, helping keep your browsing private at home and on public Wi-Fi. And with no device limits, one account covers everything. Stream with added privacy. Browse securely. Connect with confidence. Right now, save 83% off the two-year plan. Get started today at IPVanish.com slash audio and take control of your privacy with IP vanish. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you can see that if you look. If you,

if you actually look at the, you know, the chat rooms and the Reddit, the subreddits and so on, clearly it is. I mean, they're not, you know, they're not dressing and dowdy women's clothes. They're not heading, you know, they're not putting on t-shirt and jeans and heading out to, you know, pick up the shopping and the kid from nursery or something. It's very, it's very sexualized. It's all about heels and lipstick and, you know, yeah. I mean, it's just quite obvious once you stop thinking that it's an identity and start thinking like, what's your motivation here, mate? And so why isn't it that we've been able to have this discussion in a frank and open and honest manner?

Well, the thing is that there's a big difference between that particular erotic interest, the interest in being a member of the opposite sex, and other erotic interests, which is that if you say it, you ruin it. So if a man's entire erotic identity is wrapped up around being a woman, it's not about pretending to be a woman, it's about being a woman. And the moment when you say, you know, you don't pass or, well, you know, fair enough, like play it, play it being a woman if you want, but don't use the women's toilets, or something like that, you've just destroyed the whole thing.

It can't, it's not a role play in the way that the magic is ruined. The magic is ruined, yes. So it's the love that would really rather you did not speak its name. It's not a phrase I coined. It's another author thought of that. And so for those people, part of the erotic interest is in stopping people talk about the fact that it's an erotic interest and also getting other people to play along because you can't be a woman or be a man really on your own anymore. Like it's about moving around the world as that. And that, you know, you know, because there are no places that you can go and be a woman or be a man anymore, except places that only men or only women are meant to go. It actually means that you must go and try and use women's spaces. That's the thrill. You know, everyone can wear what they like now. Like, you know, in a big city like London or somewhere, you can wear what the hell you like.

A man can go around and make up lipstick, nail polish, anything he likes. It doesn't have to say he's a woman to do that. So to be a woman, you've got to go and use women's changing rooms and women's toilets. And, you know, that's the thing. That's the thing they're doing. And so what percentage of men who convert into women later on in life? It makes out like a religion. You could argue it is a religion.

So what you've just described, and how many of them are suffering from severe gender dysphoria and they're taking these steps in order to make themselves feel better, I suppose? Well, those things can overlap. I mean, somebody who's doing this for erotic reasons may also feel very, very grave gender dysphoria. And the second part of the answer is nobody knows because nobody's doing this research.

Like, nobody's asking genuine questions in comprehensible language. Like, if you look at any of the mainstream research on gender issues now, they talk in this distorted ideological language where they call males females and females males, and they use the wrong questionnaires for people. Like, you know, if you look at the research on children, for example,

post-social transition, they will use the questionnaires for the target sex, not the real sex. So they're saying things to girls like, do you feel gender dysphoric when you have to stand up to pee? Well, of course not, because she doesn't stand up to pee. Because they're pretending this girl is now a boy. So the research is just unbelievably crap. You actually have to read the whole thing to find out what the hell they did.

The summary of it will be rubbish. The reporting of it will be rubbish. And then you'll find out that probably the research itself was rubbish. So I can't answer you any of these sort of how many numbers. But the other thing I would say is that gender dysphoria is something that society creates. So there's not a set amount of gender dysphoria. There's not a set number of people who are likely to develop gender dysphoria. You know, if you live in a society where gender roles are very strict and where the only way that you can do things that you really want

to do is by pretending to be the opposite sex, or if we encourage these things by certain sorts of pornography or so on, you're going to see more gender dysphoria. I mean, I would say most of these men who have an erotic fixation on becoming a woman are very gender dysphoric. Their bodies cause some great distress. So, you know, it's not an either-or-or thing. I do think we have to think, like, how do you accommodate someone who's that miserable? But ideally, like, stop them from getting that miserable in the first place. But after that, yes, they do need accommodation. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic when I say it's an erotic fixation. Like, erotic fixations can be pretty miserable. I don't think you're being unsympathetic at all. And actually,

I love the way you were very clear about it. And it's funny to me that people would say that you were hateful or bigoted when you're just describing these things in a very neutral way, actually, I would say. And it's interesting what you say because only a few days ago, Olli London, the guy who thought he was a Korean woman was here. And we had a very good conversation, actually. He's very sound, having come through that whole process and now realized it was a mistake. But that was one of the things that really struck me about what he said, because he said,

well, society tells you you can be anything. so why can't I be Korean? And that, to your point, about there's not a set amount of gender dysphoria, I mean, that to me is the really scary part of this, which is someone is looking online, they are feeling, as you said, that they don't quite fit in, a point that Olli made many, many times. He said, well, I went to Korea and suddenly I felt like I fit in, so maybe I'm Korean, you know, but there always been lots of people who didn't fit in, who were bullied at school or whatever, but now, just open your phone and they aren't saying.

are all there. Yeah. And it's funny how some things you're allowed and some things you aren't. It was very controversial that Ollie London said that he was Korean, but if he had been an American person who said they were black, as we saw with Rachel Dollazale, like that was just social death. Like the woman became a global hate figure for saying that.

Like a white woman who said that she was black and she had the sort of the hair and the skin color that allowed her to do a fairly decent pretense of that. So, you know, how you ask yourself, why is it okay for a man say he's a woman, but it's not okay for a white person to say that they're black. And, you know, in academia, the reason is that these are in completely separate fields. Like, one of them is in critical race theory and one of them is in queer theory.

And in critical race theory, it's like whiteness is original sin. I mean, it literally is that. If you're white, you must atone for that for the rest of your life and you will never be finished atoning and you will never get to the point that you can say you were not racist. Sorry, man. You have to be anti-racist all your life, you know? And so you could never allow a white person to a white person to, identify as a black person then because they can identify out of their sin, right? Whereas if you move

over to queer theory, this is this postmodern field where categories are evil. And we make utopia by destroying categories. So, you know, if you're theorizing male and female within that, it's good to destroy the categories. But I think that's a contingent explanation. Like, I don't think it's chance that those two fields grew up the way they did. Like, I think critical race theory very much follows on from American history of race, because it just doesn't make any sense anywhere else. It doesn't make sense there either, but what I mean is, you know, you can see where it came from.

Whereas you look somewhere else and it's just obviously imported. Whereas the queer theory thing, the reason that that's where sex landed is because there are men who want to be women and they want it more than anything else. And those men have the drive to make it happen because it's their erotic drive. They have the money because some of them are rich. They have nothing else to be thinking about.

So they make it happen. Because the way that you can kind of see this must be the case is if you look at what trans activism is, it's not what you would do if your concern was trans people. I mean, trans people do have poor health outcomes, poor mental health, low income, all of those things. So you would have policies focused on that. But actually, the policy is exclusively focused on gender self-identification, which is legally changing your sex, which means that you can go into spaces for the opposite sex. So the policy is clearly formed for the benefit of people whose fixation is to count as the member of the opposite sex, not people who just want to try and get by while being highly unusual. You know, I was watching a documentary on Rachel Dullazel, and it was after she was exposed and she went to do a talk at this university. And the talk was done to black students.

And this girl put her hand up afterwards and went, I don't think you can call yourself black. And she was like, why not? And she went, because you haven't earned the right to be black. And I found that so interesting. I was like, no, she can't call herself black because she isn't black. But you haven't earned the right? Odd, isn't it? Very odd.

Like, the equivalent I've seen of that in trans is when people say that trans women are better women than what they would call cis women, and I'd call actual women, because they worked for it. Because it didn't land on their lap. And you're like, nothing lands on anybody's lap in the way of which sex they are. Like, you know, when an egg meets a sperm, and they combine, they form a male person or a female person. That's the way it works. It is that simple.

Do you think part of it as well is just that, you know, when I grew up, it was more kind of, you know, it was sort of better to be a boy. You know, boys were cooler. And now you just see slogans. The future is female. Women are doing better in the workplace. They're earning more money. More of them are going to university. It's a women's world.

Yeah. So I would say that the teenage girls definitely think that it'd be better to be a boy. Like it's very easy to say the grass is greener. Like, you know, you experience, you know, you think periods, you know, getting boobs early, whatever. And you think, oh, and you know, seeing pornography as well, by the way, and thinking, fucking hell, is that what I'm meant to do? That was disgusting. So those things would chase a girl away.

But then for boys, I do think there's something to watch you say because there's this new category that we're seeing of teenage boys transitioning. And that was never a group. Like it was always the young ones or the adults. old ones, right? So these teenage boys, you look at them and you think, I mean, maybe there's something erotic going on here, but it doesn't sound right. And I mean, these are not people I've spoken to much because this is a group that's really just emerging now, but talking to therapists who talk to them, it is partly about this, you know, being totally online. Like they're just

immersed in computer games all the time. But also, they've brought into the idea of toxic masculinity. I mean, toxic masculinity was meant to me there is a type of masculinity that is toxic. which is true. There's also toxic femininity, right? But it's turned into if you're masculine, that's toxic. Right. And so you want to identify out of that. You can't identify out of being white. You can't identify out of some things, but you can always say that you're non-binary or you can identify as the opposite sex because that's allowed. And so some of these boys, yeah, definitely they think like, that would be nice. Girls don't have to try as hard. You know, girls get things bought for them. Girls don't have to take the initiative, which is very scary for a teenage boy.

Like the idea that you're going to have to grow into the man who goes out and business success, you know, and you can look at girls and can, that's really, that's easy. What they're doing is easy. You know, put on makeup, do your hair, wear short skirt, get people to fall over when they look at you. You know, completely unrealistic, of course. But that's my point is it's a very unrealistic idea. So, yeah, I think that really is happening now for poor boys. And just touching on the girl issue for a moment, we've talked about gay girls,

girls who have got autism. Is there a link as well between, so when I was a teacher in a secondary school, and this was about 10 years ago now, I taught in an all-girls school for a brief period of time, there was always a percentage of the girls who had bulimia, anorexia, body issues for a variety of different reasons. Has that now sort of, sort of, of metamorphosized into trans or is the bulimia and the anorexia is still there? I think part of it's metamorphosed, but also they're their comorbidities, as the doctors say, they, you see them together. So very often you'll see a kid, like some of the kids who are seen at the gender clinics now will have five or more conditions. Wow. So you'll be talking about

somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, is trans identified, is cutting themselves, has an eating disorder and is anxious. And unfortunately, you walk into a gender clinic with that combination of things and they go, oh, you're trans. Like instead of something, saying, show me your arms. Can I see those marks on your arms, please? Talk to me about that. Or, you know, you're very thin. Can we talk about that? You know, so... So you're getting someone, sorry to interrupt, Helen, but I think this is important to emphasize. You're getting someone who's clearly extraordinarily distressed. Yes.

And you're going, oh, well, your explanation for this is the right one. Okay, let's go, let's go along with this. So there was a woman I wrote... She was quite responsible to me from adults. That is a very kind way to put it. The day I decided to write my book, because I've been thinking about it for months, and I had been wondering whether I was the right person because I was the finance editor of the economist at the time. It's not really very obvious subject for a book for that person.

But also I just knew that it would mean that I essentially had to abandon everything else I was trying to do because you're not allowed to talk about this and talk about anything else. How do you mean? By whom? If you try and do something else, people will just not hire you, not get you to come and talk, you know. You don't get to just be a commentator on anything. else if you talk about this because they will just not use you. So you know that it's just

a life-changing decision to write a book like that. I hadn't thought of that. So basically, if you start talking about trans, you will not be able to talk about anything else. You will not, you will ruin everything else. You will be dropped by people. If you look at the few sports people, for example, who've spoken on the trans issue in sports, they just don't get to be, you know, just commentators. They just get dropped for other things. But so the day I decided to do it was the day that I met my first D-transitioners. And as it happens, they were all girls and all lesbian. But that's absolutely not the case generally. That's just what this group was. And one of them was 23, and she had been very severely bulimic in her teenage years and had been hospitalized a few times because she was

going to die otherwise. And then when she was 18, she unfortunately looked up online if it was possible to get your breasts removed without having breast cancer. Like she wanted for reasons to do with weight. Like she was trying to get rid of them, like they were tiny, but she wanted to get rid of them and she found top surgery. And a week later, she had decided that she was a trans man. And when she went to a gender clinic, the therapist said to her, that's why you're trying to starve yourself, because you're not meant to have curves, because you're really a boy. And so she told her parents, and her parents were delighted because they had seen their daughter nearly die. And they were like, yeah, yeah, if this is going to save you, you do this.

So she got her ovaries removed, her uterus removed, she took testosterone. She was getting ready for phalloplasti, which is the most brutal surgery imaginable, where they take off an enormous chunk of either your leg or your arm and turn it into a fake dick. And, you know, A, it's very non-functional and B, enormous numbers of complications. And none of it made her any happier. Like, she was still starving herself. So she looked online then, you know, what do I do after a hysterectomy? Because she still felt terrible because they lied to her about how easy all these operations are. Histerectomies are really tough operations. And she was only 21 when she had. had hers. And she found all these sites of women who had uterine cancer or, you know, that sort of

thing. And they were very supportive. She started talking to them. And then one day, this sentence floated into her mind. And it was just, how can an operation that has only done on women turn me into a man? And it was like the whole thing, the whole past five years just unwound. And she was back and she was like, all of this was nonsense. And I listened to her, tell this story. And I just sat there and I thought, oh, fucking hell. They are sterilizing gay kids. And you just think, that's a human rights abuse if I've ever heard of one. Do you know, that is the most horrible story that is just awful. And the odd thing to me is that we've somehow ended up in a position where not endorsing that and not supporting that makes you uncaring and unsympathetic.

So she was kicked off Twitter. She was kicked off Twitter because. a trans woman said to her, how am I any less of a woman than you? You don't have a uterus either. And she said, because you're a man, she lost her Twitter account. A woman who had been through that, a woman who had been subjected to gross medical negligence and human rights abuse, for just pointing out that a woman having her uterus removed is not the same as a man who wishes to be a woman. It doesn't have a uterus, obviously, because he's a man. You know, when you describe it in that way, and we've got, we're going to have a couple of people who are detransitioners coming on the show in 2023. And I've talked to people like that.

And there's all sorts of other things going on. When it's described in this way, I mean, I don't think there's anybody in their right mind who could be on board with this. I struggled to imagine. However, as long as the issue is kept superficial, then you're a bigot for not accepting people the way they are and whatever. And it's sort of easy to maintain that way. But this is medical malpractice. There's no question about it. That is what it is.

And it's absolutely awful and is brutal. However, I heard you talking to our good friend Winston Marshall about yet another aspect of this whole thing that's almost more horrible even than that, which is sex offenders in prison. and being conflated with trans to some extent. Talk to us about that. I mean, when I started looking into all of this, there were a few things that I thought, like you, that as soon as you said them clearly, nobody could disagree with you.

And one of those was that if you allow anyone to say that they are whichever sex they choose, you will end up moving rapists into women's jails. That's just like a theorem, you know, and it doesn't even take very many steps. And I thought as soon as I said that to somebody who said trans women are women, that if I said to them, yeah, but if that's the case,

then we will end up putting rapists in women's jails. They would go, oh, yeah, I didn't think about that. Turns out they don't. Turns out people don't give a fuck. They don't care about prisoners, I think. I don't think it's that they don't care about women prisoners, particularly. It's just prisoners. So it's a black box.

Prisons are black boxes. You don't see what goes on inside them, but you're pretty sure pretty terrible things go on inside them. And there's an undertone of, well, those people deserve it. And not always just an undertone. I mean, even people who think, of themselves as good liberal people who believe in the rule of law and so on will say that, you know, a paedophile deserves what he gets in prison. That surprised me because I don't think

that. I believe in the rule of law. I think, you know, we have a justice system because we don't want that sort of extrajudicial way of thinking about things. I'm sorry, I just don't think it's right. And then when you think about women in prison, you don't even need to be thinking about the arguments about whether paedophiles deserve what they get in prison. Because women in prison, so unlike men in prison. Like one day I looked at the statistics and I thought, you know, there is nowhere you will see the difference between men and women more except on the maternity ward. So if you look at prisons, right, nearly all prisoners are men, like 96%, something like that. And of those, about a fifth are sex offenders. So you've got tens of thousands of violent prisoners who are men and

maybe 20,000-ish or 15,000ish who are in for a sex offence. Now we know that most rapes don't get reported. We know that even the ones that get reported don't need to convictions. So loads of the other prisoners are going to be rapists too. They just weren't ever caught. Because these are violent men who are willing to break the law, right? Some of them will be rapists. Tens of thousands of rapists, right? You've got 4,000 women, roughly, 3,500, 4,000 women, mostly in there for non-payment of fines, often TV license, soliciting, drug offenses, theft, that sort of thing. Most of them have experienced domestic violence. Most of them have been, have suffered very much at the hands of men, you know, specifically.

Very few violent offences and really almost no sexual offences. And the sexual offences are often in partnership with somebody else. Women who go to jail for sex offences, it's often that they worked with a man to create child pornography. Or, you know, they were soliciting. They were part of a brothel type situation. It's not because they force themselves on people. It's hard for women to force themselves on people. Anyway, so you just took with unbelievably different populations

and add to that the fact that men are much, much stronger than women. Now you've got some men that you can say, would you like to say that you're a woman and move over there? Male prisoners are not, male prisons are not very nice. I don't know how naive you have to be to not think that this is going to lead to some strategic decisions to transition. Is it, do you think they're not naive? or they just, I interpret it as they don't want to think like that.

So, for instance, it's like, you know, the migrant crisis where you hear somebody on the left go, I think they should just all be allowed to come here. And you go, well, you're not really thinking about the long-term implications. You're not thinking about the impact that's going to have on people. You're not thinking about the impact that's going to have on what's going to happen further down the line. You're just showing your care for people who are struggling. I think that's not a good analogy because, you know, solving the migrant crisis would actually take serious effort. Like, you'd actually have to do something and you'd have to spend money and you'd have to think about policies and you'd have to accept, you know, maybe more or fewer drownings, but some drownings, whatever.

Like, it's tough, tough choices have to be made. There's no tough choices here. We've got male prisons and female prisons. There's literally no problem. We were doing it the right way before. I think it's, you know, this word privilege is overused, but it's mostly just badly used. It's privilege. It's the fact that the people who are talking about this

are never going to be there themselves. You are looking at the people who are in the hardest situation in the world when you're looking at some of the prisoners, especially these women in prison. These are women who are away from their partners, their children, their partners have left them. It's just people that, you know, I'm literally, I'm never going to be there.

And so if you are attached to this ideology for reasons to do entirely with virtue signalling, in my opinion, this is a very inconvenient thought, the thought that prisons are a place that show that this was a bad thing to do. And the thing about prisons is you can lock them off. They're black boxes. You can just not pay attention to what's inside them. So they do. You know, it's a price that you're willing for someone else to pay. Well, exactly, right. And I suppose this is where the conversation about erotic, the erotic side of it comes in, because are you arguing that there are no people

who might be claiming to be a trans woman who are also not a threat? No, I'm not claiming that at all. No. No. I didn't think you were, but I just wanted to check. Yeah, so I don't think that trans women who are men are any more or any less likely in general to be threats than men. Okay.

Right? But because they are men, they are threat. Yeah. Exactly. Men are, men commit nearly all the violent crime. Men commit nearly all the sexual offences. Men are much stronger than women. But also, it's not just about threat.

Like, I think whenever I talk about prisons to, policymakers, somebody will say, but how many rapes are there? Or you talk about changing rooms, they'll say how many rapes are there? I mean, we have changing rooms and separate prisons partly to stop rapes, but also just because it's kind of embarrassing undressing in front of people of the opposite sex. Like, you know, modesty is a thing, and most people feel more comfortable in intimate situations with people of the same sex. You know, it's not that you necessarily, I mean, like if, in my workplace, if we were to switch to go gender neutral toilets, I actually you don't think I work with anybody at the economist who would have caused me problems.

I still don't want them in the bloody changing rooms with me. If they're men, it's that simple. So, yeah, I mean... The reason I raise that point is, I suppose my concern there would be that a trans woman who is just a trans woman, right? Being forced to be in a male prison. Yes. Makes her very vulnerable.

Yeah, you make a very, very good point. Or them or her. You say whatever pronoun you want. That person is going to be much more vulnerable as a result simply of the fact that they identify as trans. Well, probably as a result of the fact that they appear feminine or female to whatever extent they do. So that's an excellent point, and that points the way that we should think about these problems. So, you know, if trans women are women, then trans women belong in women's prisons. Whereas if we accept that trans women are an unusually vulnerable group of men, well, then we think how do we deal with this unusually vulnerable group of men?

And actually prisons have a lot of groups of vulnerable men. Young men are very vulnerable in prison. Gay men are very vulnerable in prison. Police officers are very vulnerable. So, by the way, are paedophiles and other sex offenders? And this is not me saying that trans women are sex offenders. I just mean that prisons manage very vulnerable groups. They may have to manage gangs.

They try and keep drugs out. You know, this is just another vulnerable group of men and should be thought of that way. So, for example, perhaps a separate wing would be a good answer. That makes sense. And if you think, although I don't anymore, but if you think that allowing people to present as members of the opposite sex is a good treatment for this feeling of gender dysphoria, then you may need to have a separate accommodation for them in order to accommodate that, because that's not something you normally accommodate in men's prisons. But you don't think transitioning of any kind is good? I don't have any evidence that it is. I mean, maybe it is for some, but I just don't think that research is being done.

There are people who will tell you that they're much happier and I can't tell them that they're. they're not. But I mean, I also know that, you know, the only decent long-term results of following on people who have gone through the full transition surgery and so on, it doesn't show that these are people who have normal levels of mental health. But they're 20 times more suicidal, for example, as in likely to complete a suicide. Now, they might have been worse if they hadn't transitioned, of course. But I'm saying it's not like it turns somebody into someone who has no problems anymore. No. I mean, we have had people on the show. Buck Angel, Rose of Dawn, Debbie Hatton, for example, who would all say that transitioning was the right

decision for them and it really helped them and they're living the life that they want to be living. Now, but just think, though, if you had gone through that amount of surgery and so on, are you somebody who can seriously say, you know what, this is a bit of a waste of time? Well, clearly a lot of people are saying that now, detransitioners. Well, I think that's because they're actually, they're distraught. Like, the only way that you can know whether a medical treatment is better than doing nothing is by doing what I call prospective studies. You start from before the treatment

and you offer different treatments and you follow up. So it could be that you've got people who say, you know, this was great, I do feel better. They might have felt better without doing it. Like, you just don't know. And far be it from me to say that these people would have been happier if they hadn't transitioned. I can't say that.

Yeah, neither can I. But my sense of, I mean, Buck Angel, we did remotely. But Debbie and Rose of Dawn when we had her own. in particular, my sense, and look, what does my sense matter? But these are people pretty comfortable with who they are. Yeah, yeah. And so it works for them. Yeah, it works for them.

And that's fine. I don't know Rose, although I follow her on Twitter, and I do know Debbie. But if you think, like, what does living as a member of the opposite sex mean? I come back to this thing of it means using spaces that aren't intended for you. So accommodating transition is something that society has to do. and nobody asked the rest of us, and in particular nobody asked women. So if you can transition,

and that's what will make you happier, but that means that you're going to be going into spaces where, frankly, you're just not welcome. You're in a very difficult position. Like, are you going to transition and not use those spaces? Would you have transitioned if you'd known you weren't going to use those spaces? Because the doctors haven't been asking.

The doctors never asked. They just said to these blokes, like usually they would have a real life test first, a year or two before surgery, and we should say really, so that anyone listening to this, hardly anyone has surgery, literally, nearly hardly anyone who calls themselves transas at any sort of surgery. So we are talking about physiologically normal people for their own sex usually. But if you want to go through that surgery, they will say to you, live as a member of the opposite sex for a year or two. What they mean is dress, make up, whatever, and go into

the women's toilets, go into the women's changing rooms, see if women shout at you and shove you out. of course they're not going to shove you out. They're terrified of you. You're a bloke who's willing to overstep women's boundaries to the extent that you've come into the women's changing rooms. That's a very scary man. So what happens is the women leave as fast as they can. And then at the end of that year or two years,

you go back to your doctor and you say, gosh, that was a huge success and lovely, beautifully integrated into the changing rooms. They do the surgery and now you keep using the changing rooms. But, you know, I'm sorry, this is not okay. None of this is okay. So if saying some people will be happier if they transition means that those people get to use faces they're not entitled to, I'm not okay with it. Let's talk a little bit about the ideology because, I mean, it's just weird. I know, isn't it just.

I wish I could be more articulate and erudite. So do I, it's just weird. But it is weird. It's not natural. It's weird. You're just going, I don't understand this. The leaps of logic. I know.

And you try and read this kind of, because I've tried. I've sat down and I've read this stuff. But I can't get my head around it. What's going on? I mean, partly I think it's because it's basically a new religion and you're not meant to get your head around religions. Specifically you're not meant to. Any attempt to get around it is showing that you don't have faith.

So to me, it's very like, I was brought up Catholic, although I no longer really believe. I feel your pain. Yeah, okay. So, but you know, three gods in one. Do you remember the mystery of the Trinity? Yes, of course. Right.

So you're not meant to try to understand that and you're certainly not meant to say, okay, three gods equals one. Therefore, in any equation in all of mathematics, three equals one. Yeah. You know, it's ineffable. It's a mystery. And so there's an aspect of that about it, that you're not meant to try to explain it. You're just meant to recite the creed and the creed, you know, trans women or women.

Have you ever seen any of these things where they have protests? and there'll be a call and answer, very like a religious call and answer. So somebody who has the mic called Bellow, trans women are women, and then everyone goes, trans women are women. And it just reminds me of Lord hear us, Lord graciously hear us. So yeah, I don't think you're meant to understand it. You're just meant to accept it.

Because, and then there's another, and I'm loath to talk about this because, but I feel we have to talk about it because it's what's going on now. And then the kind of, the fact that a lot, of these people who created some of these ideologies had to put pedophilic pass. Yeah. And again, I feel uncomfortable talking about it. But you're meant to feel uncomfortable talking about it.

That's the point. You're meant to feel uncomfortable so you don't talk about it, so we don't do our child safeguarding. That's the way it works. So let's have the conversation. So what's going on with that? I mean, I don't think that paedophilia is a big part of any sort of motivation on trans specifically. the fact is that queer theory, this idea that boundaries are innately suspicious things and that we can redefine everything and we can turn the world upside down, that's very useful for paedophiles. So I think it's almost the other way around.

It's that this is an ideology that is useful for paedophiles, so it will attract them. So if you ever talk to a child safeguarding expert, they'll say to you that if you work with vulnerable people, and specifically vulnerable children, you have to be super suspicious minded. and you have to make that really clear to everyone, because if you don't, you become a beacon, which attracts the wrong people, because other people are being careful and you're not. So queer theories like that, it attracts the wrong sort of people,

because in other places, there are people going, hmm, why does that bloke want to call himself a woman and get into the women's prison? You know, why does that man have this weird obsession with the fact that the childhood as a, you know, post-industrial Western concept? But in queer theory, they're like, oh, that's interesting, you're queering childhood.

So, of course, in come the bloody paedophiles into that field. That's the way it works. Again, by no means everybody in queer theory is a paedophile. It's the other way around. You're making the opposite point. You're making the point is the queer theory attracts them. Attracts them. Yeah.

So where are we getting these? Do you remember last, I think, I can't remember it was, I think it was in the course of the last year. We had this, what was it called? The show in Bristol. Oh, yeah. Oh, the family sex ed show thing. Yeah, I have a P, the lyrics I still remember.

I wish I didn't. I have a penis in my pants, touch it, touch it, touch it, and all this kind of stuff. I can't open Twitter without some fucking drag queen twerking her ass in a three-year-old's face. Like, where is all this coming from?

I mean, I don't think that most of the people involved in Drag Queen Story Hour are paedophiles. I think that they're very careless and so there will be paedophiles coming in. But so why are they so interested in dealing in getting in front of children? And why are the parents there just clapping this along? So they're getting interested in being in front of children is because of the Jesuit thing.

Give me the child until he's seven and I'll show you the man. Right. Right. So if you want to teach children, if you want to teach people, if you want the world to think that male and female or arbitrary categories, start with kids. And specifically little kids are good for this because little kids do think that what makes you a man or a woman is your clothes. Yeah. Like a three-year-old does think that. They think that if you take a boy doll and you dress it to be a girl, it becomes a girl doll.

Now, actually, that's true for dolls because dolls don't have sex. But you know what I mean? They think about people too. But by the time they're six or seven, they've worked out that it's the body. So interrupt that process, and you've got people who will really think that trans women are women forevermore. And then just in a very pragmatic level, drag queen's story hour means getting blokes, dolled up to look like really, really hypersexualized parodies of women, to come into schools and be called she in front of kids. There's nothing better for preparing them for thinking that trans women are women.

And then if you look at what they read as well, they read gender identity bullshit. They read all these stories about, you know, non-binary teddy bears and a dolphin who thought he was a boy, but he's really a girl stuff, you know. So it's actually indoctrination. That's why they're doing it. It's indoctrination. I don't think it's for pedophilic purposes, although I think it's an easy avenue for it. It's because it's indoctrination.

Why do the parents do it? We're back to the fucking virtue signaling, aren't we? I suppose it's very boring. I mean, you've a small baby, but it's very boring being at home as a mother. with a toddler. Somebody wants to put on. Maybe you like to drag yourself. Why'd just go for a fucking walk?

Why do you have to take them to a drag queen story hour? Well, maybe you like to drag yourself when you were in your teens or 20s or even maybe your 30s. I hate the bloody thing myself. It's just so boring. Like it manages to be both boring and quite kind of terrifying at the same time, which is an amazing feat. And drag is a legitimate part of the creative art and always has been.

But suppose you were in your 20s or 30s, like you had nice, you know, girls' nights out and you went to a drag, bar and so on. It's kind of a, it's kind of, you're cool again, aren't you? And you're a cool mom. You're not like boring mom. I suppose another way of looking at it is, you know, well, we go to the pantomime. Yeah. Blob dresses up as, you know, as a pantomime day. I haven't seen that much twerking at pantomimes, mate. I'm not going to lie. Have you heard of this, it's sometimes called the fallacy of the beard. So it's meant to be about where there are things that really are different things, but the boundary between them is fuzzy. So you've got somebody who is clean-shaven,

and then you give them like one hair. Have they got a beard now? Two hairs. Have they got a beard now? You're talking about me. I don't know. I don't actually know how many hairs there are in a beard, but let's say it's 10,000.

This person has a beard. Yeah. But there was no point in between where it was clear cut, whether it was beard or no beard. So then somebody says, well, nobody has beards or everybody has beards.

Like another example would be to say, you know, dusk, what's dusk? Is that daytime or it's that night? Oh, there's no day or night. So this is a bit of a long preamble to saying, Yes, there's a bit of drag in pantos. Yes, there can be smutty innuendo.

They're tertiary characters. It's a little bit of it. It's usually older men. It's very far away. They're not reading you bullshit about, you know, non-binary penguins or whatever the hell it is. In school, it's all of those things. It's right up close.

It's only that. It's hypersexualised. There's no other storyline. It's not aiming over the heads of the kids at the grown-ups who just want to have a laugh at some dirty joke. So, you know, these are different things, even though it'd be hard to say where the boundary exactly lay between Panto and Drag Queen.

But they're just obviously different. Right. Hello, we're coming towards the end. And there's a couple of very important questions that I want to cover before we wrap up. And number one in my mind is I've sort of gone through this year, 2022. So this may go out next year, may go out this year, thinking, well, look, we're making progress in the UK, right? you know, the Tavistock, mermaids, you know, the GRA, all of this stuff. Are we making progress? Are we doing well on this issue in this country? Yes, we are making progress and we're making more progress than

anywhere else as well. It's going to get worse before it gets better because they all had it their own way for a long time. There was institutional capture. There was nobody calling anything out. There were just a lot of things changing behind the scenes. Now it's all in public and they're angry. And the specific people who are going to be most angry are those who have made irrevocable choices on the basis that the rest of us would go along with those choices. Most of all, the parents who transition to their own children. Because if you transition your own child, you're in effect making a promise to that child that the whole world is going to step in line for the entire rest of that child's life.

And now there's people like me saying, actually, that's not going to happen. You can tell your boy that he's your daughter, if you like, but he's not going to be able to play in women's sports. And I'm going to fight tooth and nail to get him out of women's changing rooms as well. those people are all in they've bet the house, they bet their lives on an ideology that we're now fighting back against

they're going to fight to the death on this so it's going to keep going and the other thing is this isn't a tipping point kind of situation like people often say if we reach the tipping point it's the wrong analogy we've seen very serious institutional capture we've watched it turned out our institutions

were rotten like any institution that you could go to and say is it all right if the men can count as women here and they didn't say you're having a laugh, fuck off, is a rotten institution. Turns out they were all rotten. This has made them more rotten and now we have to try and win them back. It's going to be really hard. Like, how do you get back?

Stonewall? You can't. It's dead. We've got to get rid of it and replace it. You know, what do you do with the IOC? You know, the International Olympic Committee that has allowed men to compete as women? I mean, we don't have control over it, but it's rotten, you know? So I think it's just going to be absolute hard graft for,

years and years to try to get back to just where we were. And it's not like the world was a perfect place before that. You know, there was still homophobia. There was still sexism, et cetera, et cetera. There were still bad things happening, domestic violence, rape, whatever. And all of those things on hold just because we've got to try and fix this idiotic problem. Well, this is the second question. I think this is the most important one because I agree with you and with myself that we're making progress.

Yes, exactly. I agree with me, as I should. But we talked about where this has come from, right? And part of that is technology. Part of that is all the other stuff that we've discussed today. And those are quite fundamental things that have changed. And we, I think it's fair to say technology is going to keep advancing. It's going to get easier to transition.

It's going to get it. I mean, only London, who sat in that chair four days ago, whenever it was, spanked a quarter of a million dollars to be Korean. Yeah, I think it's 70 or 80s. surgeries, he said. I've met him briefly once. Yeah, he had a lot of surgery. And if a 20-something-year-old guy who's on Instagram and TikTok and whatever can just go and do that, it's going to get more accessible. It's going to get easier. The social media stuff isn't going away, I don't think. I mean, we could maybe talk about what they could be doing. But how do we ensure that in this technologically advancing society, more of this stuff doesn't happen.

I mean, free speech is the fundamental issue for me, because I don't think so much of this would have happened if we've been able to talk more freely. Now, a lot of the non-talking has been because people haven't been brave enough, and often for very good reason, they're afraid of losing their jobs. And if you're afraid of losing your job, I can't blame you for staying quiet. People have to put bread on the table.

So it's also been censorship on social, media, you know, via law, and just via employers being captured. So I would say first, free speech, because then we can talk about it clearly. And like you said earlier, that people wouldn't go with this if they understood what was being said. Well, I mean, the reason they don't understand it is because we're forced to use this idiotic language by calling men women or calling men she, because that's what they think of themselves as. May I quibble with that somewhat, Helen, just because I think there's another piece to this, which is most people, have busy lives.

Yeah. They've got families, they've got jobs, they've got bills to pay, they've got all sorts of other shit going on. And here comes along this perfectly rational, a very nice woman called Helen Joyce and wants them to think about people chopping their dicks off and, you know, all this. Or not chopping their dicks off or, you know, some man who,

they've never met a trans person and now I have to think about this. No, just go away, Helen. I don't want to think about it. Completely. I just want to get on with my life. And I think that that is actually a big part of it too. Oh, completely. And very understandable, by the way.

Yeah, and very understandable, but that's true of all policies. Yeah. So, you know, people don't want to think about Brexit. They don't want to think about interest rates. Of course. They don't think of migrants. Of course. They just want, they pay the government to sort that stuff out.

Yeah. But the people who are being paid to sort it out, they're cowards. But also, they can't think through the issues. If you can't write them down or say them logically, you have to be able to keep saying men who think they're women. You know, men who think their women should be allowed into women's sports is nothing like as convincing as trans women should belong in women's. sports. So we need to get the language back. I think that's non-negotiable. Without that, we can't do

anything. And then I would say, yes, technology, but more than technology markets, like, it's not just that that surgery was available or all those surgeries were available for Raleigh London. It said there were people willing to provide them. And so in America, you know, we're... But not in this country. This is the problem is he tried to get all this crazy surgery in this country, and he couldn't. So he went to... Brazil, I think. Well, Armenia, I think Thailand, like all over the place. Yeah.

And he could. And so we can't stop that, actually. And within America, the way it is, there's going to be marketized healthcare. Like, it's the world's biggest marketized healthcare system. But what's the point in doing it? Like, I actually think that, I don't know if this is right, but I think Ollie London probably has body dysmorphia. Yeah.

I think it's going to move to something else, I'm afraid. I hope that he can find stability. But someone like that tends to just keep going. They find a new thing to do. interesting is we employ someone who has gendered dysphoria and religion has actually been a really helpful thing. Because it's a new framework. To Oli and to them to deal with that issue. I can imagine that. And I say that as a non-religious person. It's another way to look at the world and it's a very supportive way to look at the world. So hopefully his newly found Christianity or refound Christianity is the answer. I really hope so.

And so then to move away from the individual who I don't know and I'm not as healthcare professional, you know, people who do these like Michael Jackson style levels of interventions don't tend to stop. It's not like you cut a bit off your nose and think, now my nose is perfect. You just keep cutting bits off your nose, you know? So I don't know that we can stop that. But if you bring it back to gender,

if you can't use spaces for the opposite sex, why would you do it? I think that by changing the world in such a way that we have gender self-ID in single-sex spaces, we are encouraging people to transition. And if we stopped doing that, we would discourage transition. So I do think there's a policy tool available to us,

which is to return, and this is why I work for sex matters, to return to the importance of sex-based rights in law and everyday life. And, I mean, the most important thing that we can do on this, in this country, in the law, you probably have heard of the Equality Act, it's the overarching thing, nine protected characteristics, It's the thing that stops discrimination in employment and provision of services on the basis of sex, religion, race, etc., etc. In that, it's not clear whether sex really means sex or whether it means sex as modified by a gender recognition certificate. The single most important thing that we could do in the coming year in this country is get a small amendment, and there's a procedure for doing this.

This all sounds very techy and very nerdy, but these are my favourite things. from there's like a two-line thing you could do in a law to say in the Equality Act, sex actually means sex, the thing that was on your birth start when you were born. If we did that, then we could start having the cascading working the other direction. Back into sex meaning sex in single-sex spaces, sports, etc., etc. There is a petition to ask the government to do this,

that sex matters set up. That's the most important thing that people could do is sign that petition, get a Westminster Hall debate, encourage the government to do it before Labor come in. And, you know, and then we could start moving back, reclaim single-sex spaces, stop encouraging people with this draw, telling them that if they self-ID, they can use the opposite sex spaces. And then they won't feel as gender dysphoric, because this is the thing that annoys me is that

the thought that you could do it encourages the gender dysphoria. Do you think things are going to get better if we get a Labour government? No. I mean, in some other ways, maybe yes, because we're very much at the tail end of a, long, worn out, 12-year administration, serious, you know. So, I mean, it's not like I'm massively invested in this government. No, I don't think anyone. Yeah. On this, on this issue, I mean, of course, all the bad things of the last 12 years have happened under the Tories. So they're hardly, they hardly have clean hands. But there are more people in the Tory

party who understand that this is a serious issue than in Labor. It's been an absolute pleasure, Helen, speaking with you. Our last question is always the same. It is, what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be. It's something that we are talking about, but we're talking about it completely the wrong way, and that's kids' mental health. So there's a lot of talk about mental health,

and if you've a child in school, you know that they're literally doing about the worst things they could possibly be doing for children's mental health, which is encouraging rumination, telling children to think about, you know, how do you feel, how do you feel today, let's talk about it, learn the words about your feelings, incredibly bad idea, all of that.

unless you're with a professional, just encouraging people to think and feel bad. We are creating a mental health crisis among children. It's already really raging, it's going to get worse, because we're doing all the wrong things with our children. They're not getting out enough, they're not getting enough exercise, they're spending too much time on screens.

Friendship groups are becoming more atomized and less close. And then we're teaching them nonsense in schools. We're teaching them nonsense about their bodies, their identities. We're encouraging them to be. to be fragile, you know, the sort of the anti-bullying efforts are just all the wrong ones. You know, we're not actually making people more kind and generous and supportive. We're making them more ready to complain and expect the grown-ups will step in and sort it out for them. We are creating a mental health crisis in our kids, and I think it's the most

serious thing that we should be all talking about and doing something about. Helen Joyce, absolutely a brilliant interview. Fantastic book, Trans. And we're going to ask you a couple of questions that our supporters have, submitted the only they will get to see on local. So thank you very much. And thank you guys for watching and listening. We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or Raw Show. All of them go out at 7pm UK time. And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast. Take care and see you soon, guys. The gender identity ideology beast is like the many-headed hydra. But which is the head that, when chopped off,

will be the fatal blow to this dreadful damaging creature. This episode sponsored by IP Vanish. IP Vanish protects every device you own, your phone, your laptop, your smart TV. If it connects to the internet, it should be protected. IPVanish encrypts your connection and masks your IP address, helping keep your browsing private at home and on public Wi-Fi. Stream with added privacy.

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