TRIGGERnometry - What's Next for TRIGGERnometry?

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

To celebrate reaching 600K subscribers, Francis and Konstantin sit down to discuss everything that’s happened in the last year and their exciting plans for the future! SPONSORED BY: EasyDNS - domain name registrar provider and web host. Use special code: TRIGGERED for 50% off when you visit https://easydns.com/triggered/ Become a Premium Member to receive exclusive benefits https://triggernometry.supercast.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube:  @xentricapc   Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How many discounts does USAA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount, safe driver discount, new vehicle discount, storage discount, legacy. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com slash auto discounts. Restrictions apply. As we were breaking up for the Christmas period,

I was sort of looking at the accounts going, this is actually really, really difficult. And then we came back and we were like, we're really going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat here. I mean, talking about the rabbit out of the hat, the Oxford speech was the ultimate rabbit out of the hat. Well, for a start, it made a shit ton of money. Yeah.

That was the biggest thing. It's like we could actually afford to pay everyone a salary. Because if you look at our interviews, so you want to have to fucking deal with? We want to hear people's views from different sides of the political spectrum. And there's not many places that you're going to get that variety of conversation. If you cannot sit down and have a conversation, be friends, have a relationship with someone that you disagree with, then you're a child. The values will always remain the same.

We are always dedicated to having the conversations with the most interesting people about the topics that people are scared to confront. Proud of everything that we've achieved. Oh mate, the next, the rest of this year is going to be absolute dynamite. We've got, I mean, the stuff we've got coming up, exciting as help. Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishen. And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations, with fascinating people.

Today, we're celebrating the fact that we've just hit 600,000 subscribers on YouTube. And of course, it's been an incredible first half of the year, Francis, hasn't it? It has been an incredible first half of the year. It has been, I think, what is euphemistically called, a journey. It has been a journey, mate. Well, I mean, one of the things people won't know from behind the scenes, but actually at the end of last year, the end of 2022, we were having kind of a rough time of it. Oh, yeah. We were having a really rough time of it. I mean, we were rapidly running out of money. We were. Well, what happened was we had to leave our previous studio as is our nature.

Yeah. And we decided to use that as an opportunity to build a proper studio from the ground up. which is where we're sitting now. And we ramped up our studio cost by about 400%. And then immediately got COVID and couldn't work for a month, basically, towards the end of last year. So as we were breaking up for the Christmas period, I was sort of looking at the accounts going, this is actually really, really difficult.

And we had to cut the two of us salaries, which are not huge anyway, Anton as well. And then we came back and we were like, we're really going to have to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat here. And when we sat down at the beginning of the year, Laura, who's our chief operating officer now, it basically runs everything, we had a planning meeting.

We were like, well, wouldn't it be amazing if we could get to 500,000 subscribers this year? That was our stretch goal. That was our stretch goal because we were like, we're probably not going to make it. No. But that would be great, because that would represent nearly doubling the size of the channel

in a year, which is a huge achievement. Absolutely it is. And that is what we were talking about. And that was the big pie in the sky, the stretch goal. And I think it's fair to say we've exceeded the stretch goal. Well, we're on 600,000 now. It's towards the end of August now. And we've still got some incredible stuff coming later this year,

which we'll tease a little bit. We never like to say exactly what's happening. Because every time we do, it never happens. for a multitude of different reasons. Yeah, someone gets ill, something gets cancelled, etc. Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, talking about the rabbit out of the hat, the Oxford speech was the ultimate rabbit out of the hat.

Well, for a start, it made a shit ton of money. Yeah. That was the biggest thing. It's like we could actually afford to pay everyone a salary. Yeah. Which was a relief. Yeah, it was. Because it gets a bit awkward and you're going to people,

and you're going, you know that work you've done, which has been outstanding. Yeah. Well, not in every case. Not in every case, but in the majority of cases, Yeah, how about exposure? Would you like to get paid for exposure? That old classic.

We're not in the comedy industry now, right? Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so I mean, so what was it like for you to see that speech? Well, first of all, like I say, it was a big relief. Yeah. Because I think when we put that clip out of on our channel, it generated about 16,000 pounds. Yeah. Which meant that actually, as I say, we could, our financial problems were sort of taking care of.

And then you just saw this video get 5.5 million views on the channel, bring in a huge number of subscribers. So for me, first of all, it's just one of the two people leading this. It was just a big way off our shoulders, more than anything. And really, beyond, you know, I went on Tucker again. I did question time again. I had some in the immediate aftermath, some opportunities that I'd had before. but again, big ones. You went on JBPs pod?

I did, yeah, yeah, which I think we'd been planning to do at some point anyway, but again, that was obviously great. But really, not much had changed in my day-to-day life because I don't live in the big city. Most, I'm a very boring guy. When I'm not in here working, I'm at home with my family, going for walks in the local park or whatever. And so the only thing I,

I noticed, as I said to my wife, like, you know, when I used to go out in the local, in the small town that we live and maybe get recognized once a week. Yeah. Now I said, Joe, I'm sort of starting to get recognized every day. But, you know, one person recognizes you when you go for a war, it's not a big deal. Someone says, oh, I love your show or whatever. And really, it wasn't until we went back to the U.S. that I started to gather the significance of what had happened because we were going to the US

and this was our, would it be our second proper trip together filming and doing stuff or would it be the third one? Hang on a second. That's a really good question. I think it was a second trip. The second trip, because the first trip we did, we did East Coast and Austin and West Coast. That was one massive trip. And then we went back this time when we just did the East Coast, didn't we?

We went to New York, Miami, D.C. And you went to Austin, and I went to L.A. to do Bill Maher and a bunch of other stuff. But anyway, when we set off, I drove into Heathrow, stayed in a hotel the night before. He's changed. Yeah, I can afford a hotel now. And between arriving at the hotel late at night and getting to... Was it DC or New York Airport, wherever it was? I'd been recognized 10 times in the space of about, what, 24 hours?

Yeah. And he was literally like, I went down to the pub in the hotel for a drink with my son, and a guy came over, started to... He had no idea, didn't know my name, didn't know anything about trigonometry, anything. Next day, I take a cab to the airport. Cab drivers, like, do I recognize your voice? And again, he didn't know about trigonometry. this is the thing like most people used to know me just for trigonometry. And now there was a huge number of people who'd never really known who I was,

who'd just seen the speech. The guy in the airport, the guy in security. And it started to get to the point where it's kind of like almost a little bit worrying because when we were in, there was a long queue when we arrived in the airport in America. And me, you, Anton and Elliot were standing around just talking about our business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you guys went ahead for immigration and I stayed back. And the moment you guys left, the guy behind us stood there for an hour listening to all

our business talk. Yeah. Went, love your show, by the way. And I was like, why don't you fucking tell me an hour ago? So we didn't discuss private information in front of you. I mean, that's what he wanted. That is what he wanted. Yeah.

And so, and then when we got to America, I suddenly realized that like every, all the people that we'd been in touch with previously because they were guests of the show or we would been guests on their show, whatever, they treated me very differently now. And it was, it was kind of eye-opening, really. So that trip to America really changed everything for me, because, you know, we arrived there and basically I was like, all my heroes are there saying, you know, welcome, brother. Yeah. Come and join us. It was almost an initiation into a world that I'd always aspired to be part of. And, you know, the thing that really summed it up for me was when I went on Bill Maher show, Eric Weinstein.

He was a guy that, you know, we'd been dreaming of having on the show for I just so much respect for him, a fascinating guy. He asked to come and be my guest with his wife and a friend of hers in the green room of Bill Maher, whereas to me, I would have been honored to like have a coffee with Eric up until that point. We used to speak every now and again on the fun, but it was just like amazing. So he changed a lot, I think, for the show because we pretty much, I don't know, we would have got 15, 200,000 subscribers from the speech itself.

Yeah. And then the follow-up hits that I did on various podcasts and TV and stuff like that. But also for me, it really changed how I think I see what I'm doing and how other people see what I'm doing. My book, I think, doubled sales in a week or something. That's amazing. I didn't realize that. Yeah, it did really well, particularly on the audiobook because people wanted to hear, literally

hear from the person that they'd heard. So yeah, it was really, it was, it was transformative. And I feel, you know, it took a lot of pressure off me, actually. Really? So it took some, you know, the truth is that I know that in the British context, this might sound arrogant, but it is true. Ever since I was a little kid, I always felt that, I always had this weight on my shoulders. I felt that I was supposed to do something special. and all my life, I never, I was always good at the things I did when I ran my translation business,

when I did comedy, I was good at comedy, but I never felt that I'd really slotted in. You found your thing. I never felt that I found my thing. And with trigonometry, I always did feel like I'd found my thing, but it was kind of like having to prove it to the outside world. And I think what changed for me with the Oxford speech, it was like, I've proved it now.

Yeah. And the way that I feel now is like, I have so much left to do, but I have nothing left to prove. That's an amazing place to be. And it's such a relief. Yeah. You know, it's a real relief. And it shows up in the way that I am with other people, in the way that I'm with my family, in what kind of friend, a husband, or everything I am.

It's really allowed me to just take that, go, go, go, you know, thing off me. And I'm free to be very driven and passionate. as I always have been, but without having this extraordinary feeling of like I'm supposed to be something and I'm not. Yeah, yeah. And I think we've all noticed that. And it's...

I think one of the things that no one really talks about when you have success is a relief element of it. It's like when we... Nigel Ung, the very famous... You know, he's got that character online, which is absolutely massive. I think he's got over...

Haya! I think he's probably got... When we interviewed him, he had 8 million subscribers, he's probably got something like 30. Thanks to us. Yeah, exactly. You're welcome, mate.

Exactly, Nigel. But, you know, when I was talking to him about the character, I was, were you excited? He was just like, no, I was just, I think he even said it in the interview. I was just like, oh, thank the Lord. Yeah. You know, it's that feeling of relief that the work has been worth it. Yeah.

Because there's incredible people who work all their lives and create stuff, and it's great, but for whatever reason, it doesn't pop. So that feeling of relief, I imagine, is just, a sense of calm and peace that it brings. It is. And also, when we went to the US, we met all these incredible people. And the mindset over there,

you know, we talk about all the time. It's got downsides, of course. Of course it does. But I really, you know, I used to think the sky's the limit. Now I just think there is no limit. You know, I'm just like,

what can we do? How can we be more? more of ourselves. How can we create amazing content? How can we make a positive impact on the world? I'm not embarrassed or shy anymore about having big dreams and big aspirations for what we're building here. And I just feel like we put ourselves on the map this year in a way that I think in the past we just felt like we were trying to. Now I just feel I feel like there's no limit. And the thing is, it's not, I know it's not a delusional thing because I meet all these people who are hugely successful, who I respect, who we look up to, who tell us that. They look at

what we've built here and they go, there is no limit. And so to me, this is all, you know, all upside, all opportunity from here and in. Doesn't mean we won't have difficulties. Doesn't mean we weren't nearly run our money again or whatever. But I just feel like we've got a really amazing team in place now who can allow us to just be the on-camera personalities that we are and create things and write amazing comedy and books. And we should talk about all of that. Yeah, we should definitely talk about that because going forward, the difficulty when you start when you start something from nothing is that you literally have to do everything. And the challenge with that is that the things that you were doing aren't really things that you know about and aren't

really your strengths. So you're essentially doing things that you're not good at, but you are having to model your way through. Well, an interesting example of this would be when we went on Joe Rogan. Yeah. And then we went on Rogan. He got a massive blunt out, which we smoked. And then we got driven back to our Airbnb completely off our faces, having just done Rogan. And me and you, me and you were helping our team set up, like actually putting the light stands together while we're completely off on our night and doing all of that.

And then interviewing one of our biggest ever guests. And interviewing Theobon who roasted us for an hour and a half. And that really, you know, that's been the journey. I mean, it's interesting. We had a woman coming to the studio yesterday who was fitting some fire extinguishers here. And she was, she somehow had known our story. And she was like, so you started in,

in a shed, didn't you? And I was like, no, we didn't. It wasn't even our shed. Yeah. You know. And that's, that's been how we've done it. But you know, something else I think would be interesting to talk about is, do you know, it's weird how I feel like all the success that you and I have had has always been

because we always had the mentality that the only thing that could prevent us from being successful is if you and I were to fall out and not stick to. together. And that's not to say you and I have never had arguments or fallings out or whatever. But one of the interesting things to me was when my Oxford speech happened, so many people messaged me and they were asking me if you were all right. And I just thought that is such an interesting way of looking at it because, look, I understand people sometimes are resentful or whatever, but I just feel like everything we've built, we've always done it together. So when I wrote my book, you look through and you help me punch it up. When you write your monologues, I look

through and help you adjust it and whatever. We've always done things together. And so the success we've had has been together. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, you know, what was it like for you when that happened? Because a lot of people were asking me about this. So for me, when it happened, there was a kind of surreal element to it, which was just seeing the way that it went up.

And I just had never seen that before. But, you know, it was that time for me personally was a very worrying time. in terms of the finances. I can't handle my success. In terms of the finances, look, I've been skin. I know what it's like to be skin. And whenever you're skin, you carry that round with you a little bit

because you know what it's like to, you know, have to bunker train because you've literally got no money. You know what that's like. So there was that fear. And then when it happened for you, I was so relieved. And I was just like,

he's absolutely smashed it. He's pulled it out of the bag. And I was delighted for you. And I remember people going, to me and going, oh, are you jealous? And no, because this is what we built together. This is what, this, we're a team. And I've always compared what we do to a band. Yeah. We're a band, you know. And so the fact that you went and you did this amazing thing was incredible for all of us. It was something I was genuinely proud of. And also as well, it is completely what you

should be doing. It's not what I should be doing. No, no, no, no. You know, if I went on there and I started banging on about people about what you were talking about, people would be like, all right, it's a bit, because it's not what I should be doing. I think jealousy, like I understand the emotion of jealousy, of course I do, and the pangs that people feel, and whatever else. But on a deeper level, I genuinely believe that everybody is on their path. And what somebody is doing, it's not your path. So it's, it's. It's not your path. The only thing you can take from it is inspiration, I think. And this is why I think the fact what people sometimes don't think about is it's like that famous yogi Berra saying it took me 10 years to be an overnight success.

If we don't have trigonometry, if people don't already know who I am and I don't already have a significant following on social media, I could still do that speech if I had been invited. Let's say, although I probably wouldn't have been invited to speak at the Oxford Union. and I do that speech and it really wouldn't have the impact either on us or the world that it did because we'd put in the work to create the foundation to launch something like that.

You know, and that's it. And that's it. It's, you know, the fact that it got us to this point. And look, when people talk about success and they go, oh, you know, it was because of this reason or that reason, the reality is, with what we've achieved, it's everything.

It's everything and it's everyone. And certain people played more of a part in this factor and less people played more of a part in that fact. But it's a result of people working together. The danger comes with any type of creative endeavor like we have is when people try to pick things apart and say, it was me who did this, it was me who did this. Because that encourages the perception of we're individuals doing this.

and once you do that, you're no longer a team. And once you're no longer a team, then you're not going to function. I mean, it's a cliche, but look at any type of sport. If you have a collection of individuals, it doesn't matter how talented they are, they're never going to win. The best groups, the best bands, the best teams are greater than the sum of their parts. And you and I are incredibly different, which is why I think it works. Yeah, it's a reason why it works.

because if you look at our interviews, the way we attack our interviews, are from two completely different places. And as a result of that, you get a far more well-rounded view of the individual in front of us than you would do if it was just me or you. Yeah. And you know what? Speaking of interviews, I mean, one of the things that I have to say, I'm incredibly proud and excited about is some of the recent guests

and the guests that we've got up coming up, you know, we have got everybody from Nigel Farage through to Mark Steele, who's a lefty firebrand comedian, to Aaron Bustani, the founder of hyper-lefty media organization, Navarra Media. And this is what we set out to do when we started. Yes, we have our own points of view. Yes, we are not pretending to not have them. But we want to speak to everybody.

We want to hear people's views from different sides of the political spectrum. And there's not many places that you're going to get that variety of conversation, including Navarra Media. Yeah. You're not going to get it at Navarra Media. I mean, they had Matt Goodwin on, but that was like a massive, scary thing for them. And look, good on them for having them. I'm just saying, I think that in terms of pioneering a new media organization that is going to have a range of voices on it that you might agree with or you might disagree with, but they've got to be heard and they've got to be discussed in an open and honest way, we're really, really plotting quite a unique course, I feel. And that's something I think we should be very proud of.

Absolutely, we should. And, you know, and this is the thing as well. There are interviews that we know are going to get more views. You just know that. You know that if you bring, and I love him to pieces, he's one of our finest interviewees, he's a brilliant mind, he's great fun, Douglas Murray. If we bring Douglas Murray on, we know it's going to crush on every platform, it's going to be amazing. Douglas is a star. He's a star. But, We also know that if you bring certain other people on, it's not going to do as well. But it's important for the mix that you get all these voices. Absolutely. Because I, and neither do you, want to be one of these platforms where we just talk to people that we agree with. Because number one, and the most important thing about it, it's just boring. Yeah.

If you cannot sit down and have a conversation, be friends, have a relationship, have a relationship, with someone that you disagree with, then you're a child. And it really is that simple. And I don't understand why we don't talk about this more. Yeah. Well, I think we found ourselves in a very, very locked in world where, look, it's very gratifying, isn't it, to just hear your opinion regurgitated back to you.

And this echo chamber thing exists for a reason. It's really, you know what? One of our former guests, actually, Sean Walsh, he probably won't even remember this bit of material that he used to do. He was a comedian, when I was starting out comedy, I saw him do a show. And he at the time, this would have been 2014, believe it or not. And he was saying, you know what, I don't know that we need other people. We just need a robot where you just talk at it and then it says, I agree, you are absolutely right.

And so many people just want that. Whereas, look, there are things that I think you and I both feel very strongly about. that we've kind of worked out for ourselves as a result of the conversations that we've had on the show and lots of things. But there are so many things that we do not know about the world, about all the different things that we talk about

on the show that are worth discussing, that are worth debating, that are worth chiseling away at things and working out exactly what it is that we think. And we live in a world that lacks that. And I think that's, again, another of the reasons for how far we've been able to come

and how far we're going to go, because we are going to retain that attitude always. We're not going to get locked into a particular worldview and a side, which makes it difficult sometimes. I think we all know that if we pick the team and started batting for that team, we'd probably be further along in terms of numbers and revenues and whatever. But it's just not, I don't think you can be successful being truly successful, being something that you're not. No, you can't.

You can't. And that's why your speech worked, because you were absolutely you. It was you distilled. You weren't trying to be something else. You weren't saying something that you didn't wholeheartedly believe in. And there's a very famous playwright, and I say it all the time, David Mamet, words that come from the heart go to the heart. And that's why that speech connected. And that's why it was brilliant. And that's why it worked. And I don't think people actually really understand that. Because so many people are trying to be something in order to achieve something. But you're never going to get there if you were trying to be something because immediately you're inauthentic.

And the moment you're inauthentic, it's when you become people don't believe in you because they know it's fake. You know, well, I think the truth is for us both what we've been doing for the last five and a half years is chipping away at the persona that we thought we were supposed to have. and actually get into the core of what we are and who we are and what we believe. That's really been the journey. It's like talking to people to try and understand what the truth is about certain issues, but also being free to speak our minds because not that we want to bang on about it too much,

but when you are on the comedy circuit and your livelihood depends on people in the industry liking you, in a very punitive industry where if you have the wrong opinion, and people will ban you from clubs or not book you or whatever. We had to really watch our steps all the time. And it creates this kind of eggshell walking experience that's just it's the worst thing. It's not the worst thing, of course, but it's really, really terrible.

It's a terrible way to live your life. And it's how most people live. And it's why this show is so successful. It's because we don't live like that. And when we have conversations which are open and honest, in which we say what we think and we feel, that's for people, that's revolutionary because most people in their lives,

both in their professional and their private lives, walk on eggshells. I get people messaging me going, oh, I really admire your bravery. I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, I couldn't say that. I'm terrified of what my kids will think. And I'm thinking, you're in your 50s and your 60s.

I mean, let's be brutally honest. You don't know how much life you've got left. And you're going to walk around worried about what your kids think? To me, that's just really sad. It's really sad that people live like that. It is. It is. And you know what?

I have a very fucked up motivation system personally. But one of the most inspiring and powerful things that I know and think about often is, You say you're in your 50s and 60s, you don't know how long, you don't know how much longer you've got left. It doesn't matter if you're in your 20s. You don't know how much longer you've got left. And the reality is as well, man, is, you know, I think people, I don't know if it was true for you,

but for many people, I think we kind of live through life waiting for something to happen. Yeah. For someone to come and save us somehow. And the truth is, no one's coming. No one's coming to save you. No one gives a shit. People are busy living their own lives.

They're not sitting there judging you and wondering what your opinion is about this or that most of the time. Another thing is you don't know when you're going to die, but when you do, all it's going to happen is they're going to put you in the ground, throw some dirt on top and go and eat some food. Yeah. That's it. That's it. There's no big glory. Okay, look, you're famous, whatever. There'll be lots of people at the funeral.

But that's it. Nothing happens. And so you might as well make the most of what you've got. you might as well say what you think. You might as well be yourself. And, you know, when we, it's, and people will be watching this go, oh, look at these guys, they've got a big YouTube channel there. We started trigonometry for precisely this reason. We were not prepared to pretend to be people that we were not. Yeah. And also, we started this with nothing. Yeah. And one of our best recent interviews that we haven't released yet is with a chap called Tim Urban.

And he was talking about risk, and he was talking about the scale of risk. So one being no risk, 10 being a high level of risk, the highest level of risks. Most people live their lives between one and three. But if you live your life between four and seven, that's really the sweet spot right there. That's really where you can actually maximize risk and you can take risks. And that's one of the reasons for me were, you know, I was genuinely proud of what you did. with the Oxford speech is because you went out there

and you took a risk. Not a huge... I'm going to put everything... Don't worry, darling. Everything is going to go on the Grand National. You know, on punky horse. I've got a feeling.

But it was in that space. And then when it went big, you deserve every single thing you got because you were willing to stand up and say that thing that nobody else had said. And that's why it went big and that's why it worked.

And watching that made me realize, look, when it comes to your own comedy, you need to go out and say the thing. You need to go out and say the thing that you want to say. And if people get pissed off and people don't want to work with you, well, them's the brakes. Well, and for us, we're in a fortunate position now where reality is people can dislike you or ban you from their comedy club. You're still going to find a way to get your message out there to go and do the comedy that you believe. and if you look at the comedy greats, the people that you respect, that's what they all did. Absolutely. And if you think about the people that we all respect, the people who we look up to, who we idolize, who we say, you know, whoever it may be, the writers, the thinkers, the poets, the philosophers. When they were around, they pissed a few people off. They weren't exactly Mr. Popular.

Right. You know, these were people who were controversial in their own times. So if you want and if you would aspire to be great, then you have to walk that walk. And it ain't easy. And it's not going to be every day you wake up and it's going to be plain sailing and it's going to be relaxed. No, it's going to be tough and people are going to criticize you and people aren't going to invite you to things and people are going to misrepresent you. But that is the path. And you have to accept that.

And if you don't want to accept that, then you have to accept living a life where you're going to be inauthentic, which to me is the greatest punishment ever. Yeah. It's true. Because you don't want to do that. You don't want to do that.

I mean, we've both lived a life where we didn't, we weren't everything that we could be. And as a result of that, it's, I can't remember who said it. It's a life of quiet despair in many ways. because you're not saying what you're thinking or feeling. You're not being true to yourself. Yeah.

And that's the greatest luxury that we now have is the ability to say what we think and be ourselves. I would say a Ford state. But yeah, but that's what it is. That's what it is. And you know what's really lovely? It's what I love so much. It's just being able to be ambitious without shame.

And not think that ambition is a bad thing and it means you want to screw people over and, you know, that you're... You can tell we've been spending time in America, can you? Can you? And it's Machiavellian. It's none of these things.

It's wonderful. Do you know what, man? That is such a... Look, you know how much I love this country. Yeah. But that is such a thing that that thing always used to bother me here. I remember we went to see a comedy show,

me, you and someone else. And we met a fellow comedian outside who had just over... for Ricky Jervais. Yeah. And I was like, mate, that's amazing. That's so great. You've been slaving away on the comedy circuit for 10 years.

Now you're opening one of the biggest acts in the world. Then he went, oh, yeah, I've been really fortunate. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. But everyone here sort of feel, or most people here, sort of feel like they have to pretend that their success is not largely, look, luck always plays a part, but largely down to their own hard graft. And this guy is a brilliant comic, been working away in relative obscurity in terms of global comedy for years and years and years.

And he's fucking earned it. Yeah. And that thing that they have in the US where everyone you talk to in the US is like, look, we might not get to work together. We might not lose. But I want to see you win. Yeah. And they mean it. Yeah.

And I'm like that with people now as well. When people come in here. And they look at you like you're weird. They're like, what? Yeah. They look at you like you're weird. But they also love it. Yeah.

They like, you know, that attitude of seeing other people win and other people do well. It's the best thing. And it's such a, it's so good to be that way for you. Yeah. Because you feel great. Yeah. Of course. Of course.

So, worse thing. I mean, there's a saying in AA, which is, and people have heard it, you know, resentment is drinking poison and hoping the other person dies. Do they say that when they fix your time? They do indeed. They give you a little bit of philosophy and then they get you on your way. But it's true, man. It's true.

That way of thinking where, you know, you don't deserve something. If you get something, you don't deserve it and you're worried about what other people perceive about you. But yet if somebody else gets something, then you're resentful. Living like that, it's just, it's not good. I don't have time for it anymore, man.

And we are surrounded, the beauty of the work that we do is we're surrounded by incredible people. Yeah. You know, we've become very good friends with Winston Marshall over the, you know, the last couple of years. And he's such a great guy. And so many others. So many other people that we... Terrible tasting glasses.

In glasses? I'm joking, Winnie. What's wrong with his glasses? Scott, you know, the kind of... It just reminds me my dad's in the 80s. I'm sorry, I win. But no, you're right. You're right.

Just to be around people who are ambitious and want to achieve things, it's such a tonic. Yeah. And, you know, something Eric Weinstein said when he was in here made me think a lot, which is he talked about how, you know, I'd never flown on a private plane until I got cancelled. Yeah. The truth of it is that all of the energy, all of the excitement, all of the really like stuff that makes you feel alive is in our space now. Yeah. You know that. Yeah.

All the people that we have on our show that we get to hang out with, that's. that's where the interesting conversations are happening. Everything else is kind of stale. I mean, if you look at the party political system, in this country especially, we get someone on the right in here and we ask them what they think of the conservatives. We get someone on the left in and we ask them what they think about labor. No one's excited about any of it. No.

But this space is exciting. This space is exciting. This space is where things are happening. and this space is where interesting, fascinating conversations are happening. And it's sometimes I have to stop and I have to go appreciate what you have. Because there are times you have this amazing conversation. And then you go and chat to someone, a friend or whatever else, and you just relay what this person said.

And they're like, that's so interesting. I've never thought of the world like that. Who said that to you? How did they say that? But because it's our job, we get exposed to it all the time. And it's an amazing thing to be part of. It is. And we're going to go back to the US.

Indeed we are. In a month or so. We've got some very big plans. We can't say yet other than we're going back to Austin and L.A. Yeah. And maybe Vegas as well. Yeah. For work.

Yes. Strictly speaking. Everything on black, like my dating history. So that will be really excited. And we're working, you know, people can already see that we are slowly starting to expand the range of what we do here. So in addition to interviews, you and I put out pieces to camera. Regularly, we've got other creators who will be coming through under our umbrella over time. And, you know, we are going from a YouTube show and podcast to a media organization, a new media organization.

And people are going to see some very big changes here over the next six months, which is obviously very exciting. And we'll talk more about that when the time comes. But we've got a brilliant US trip coming up with some massive guests and some big appearances for us as well. So that should be fun. It should be really fun. And what is also important is that when people see the change, they realize as well that our values will always remain the same.

We will always be dedicated to having these conversations, the important ones. Unless we sell to a billionaire, in which case Francis's values are going to change. rapidly. Exactly, mate. Head over, straight over to Italy and drown myself in carbs. But the values will always remain the same. We are always dedicated to having the conversations with the most interesting people about the topics that people are scared to confront. Because it's only when you talk about a topic, honestly, all different facets of that topic can you possibly hope to have an honest conversation? And that's why the mainstream is dead. And that's why no one cares. And that's why Louis Theroux went on at the, I think, at the Edinburgh TV festival and did an hour speech

all about this. Yeah. Because the smart people not. They know what is happening. Well, Louis watches trigonometry. He does indeed. You know, we look alike. You know, he knows a sexy man when you see.

But, and that's the exciting thing. And that's the exciting thing. And whatever happens and whatever we do, we will always retain those core values. Because that's what makes the show great. Yeah. It's been amazing to come to this point. It's been amazing to work with you. It's been amazing to work and spend time and share and grow and develop

and just see you develop and to see you improve. It's been a privilege. It's been a privilege because it's been a privilege to see you get better and it also makes me want to get better and it makes me want to improve. And you're crushing it, man. I mean, you're doing lots of TV now. We've got your clips coming out on the channel that are doing really well.

You've been doing your comedy monologues, which are improving and growing over time as well. So, you know, I'm really excited to see, I've always said to you, and people won't know this, but I've always pushed you a lot, sometimes too much, maybe, or too forcefully at least,

but I've always really believed in you. And the one thing I've always said to you is, about your comedy, but about life in general is like you've got the handbrake on. Yeah. And you've got to take that handbrake off. Yeah. You can't be driving with the handbra.

And when you really take that handbrake off with your comedy, it's going to be incredible. Yeah. And it's that realization of living in a state of discomfort. If you crave comfort, if you crave security, you are never going to achieve what you want. Comfort is overrated, man. It's overrated and it's not real. Because even if you feel comfortable, you ain't safe. You may feel safe, but you ain't safe.

No. And I think that's a great problem of our age. I think that's why people don't achieve what they want. I think it's why they don't go after their dreams. And I think it's why ultimately they don't live the life that they want. You know, it's so interesting that this conversation has been popping up quite a lot in relation to depression because I see a lot of people saying something which I believe to be true, which is the way that we treat male and female depression is the same,

even though they're caused by very different things and require very different solutions. And I think particularly for men, the answer to, a lack of fulfillment, a lack of meaning, and all the other things that are likely to make a person depressed, is actually stepping in to that risk and danger and building something or doing something that scares you, but inspires you at the same time. And I've always, since I was quite young, actually, I've always, people won't believe this, perhaps. I did public speaking when I was at school, but then when I left school, you know, you know,

like you get those 18-year-old footballers, they've come on, pitch, they've got no fear because they don't have any concept of what's happening. Oh, yeah, they've got no idea how high the stakes are. No. And then you kind of get to your mid-20s and suddenly you feel a little bit more protective and whatever. So by the time I was in my mid-20s, I was actually, it's probably fair to say that I was very nervous about speaking in public. I would have been very nervous about being on camera. And I ran towards that and I started, I forced myself to do public speaking. I forced myself to train and learn and whatever.

And I think for men in particular, this may be true of women, I don't know because I'm not a woman, although I could be. Yeah, exactly. I think for men, mental well-being comes first and foremost from a feeling of, it's not power exactly, but it's the ability to make an impact and the ability to take charge of your life. That really is what will offset any anxieties or, you know, depressive tendencies or whatever you have because you are inspired and you feel like you're actually, you've got some measure of control over life, which isn't true because you don't have full control of your life. But there are different gradations of control.

And I think often the reason people feel lost is that they haven't really taken charge. and you've been doing that in a really impressive way. And by the way, you know, I used to, so on Roars, I used to jokingly fat shame. You've lost tons of weight. You're pursuing your comedy in a different way. You're starting to write a book now. You've got a great book proposal.

Like, you've really taken charge of your life in the last few years. And it's really impressive to see you in. Now, thank you very much. And what I want is for people to listen to this and to watch this and realize that, I ain't special, you ain't special. None of us is special. What the fuck is you talking? Everyone can do this. Everyone can do this. All it requires is you make that first step. Courage is a muscle. The more you work the muscle, the more courageous you will be.

And you're never going to stop feeling fear. You're never going to stop feeling scared. You're never going to stop all of those feelings. You're just going to get better at acknowledging them, accepting them, working through them, and then moving forward. That's all it is. This idea that you're going to get to a place where, you know, you have somehow overcome all of these emotions and fear, that ain't never going to happen. You're just going to get better at dealing with it.

I will say, though, I mean, you can get a lot closer to, like, I, for example, the first time I did TV ever, I remember, I remember pacing up and down. the hallway, I was sweating buckets, I was nervous, etc. Now I go on that very same show and it's, and actually it freaks, especially if I'm doing like TV debates. When I did the last time I was on Good Morning Britain, it freaks the other guests out, how calm I am. Yeah. And that's not because I'm pretending to be anything. I'm just like, I've been here, I've done it, I know what it's like. And so you will still feel many of the same things, but over time, you get comfortable in

scary situations. Absolutely. And then you go to the next level and you find, oh, okay, this is good. So with my Oxford speech, it was fascinating because someone asked me, were you like nervous before you did it? And when I was driving over to Oxford to do it, I was completely calm. Yeah. I knew I had, I knew exactly what I was going to say. I knew exactly how I was going to say it. I knew that it would look great on camera and that it would do well, really, really well. And afterwards, when I'd done it, I knew that it would do really well. It'd go super viral. It was a great speech, whatever.

But the hour before, I was really, it's not even that I was nervous. It's just your body goes into that I'm about to be in front of loads of people's stage in the new context. So the first time I did Question Time, which is the biggest show we have in this country, basically. Political show, yeah. Political show. I remember being completely calm. And then I sat down and the show started. And I literally felt I could not move my body except my head.

I was that locked in. Yeah. And I had to like, I had to really breathe. Yeah. But then when it got going, I was fine. The second time, completely calm, none of that. So as you have these experiences, whatever it is, that you are nervous about or anxious about or whatever.

You learn over time. And so, you know, all the big shows that we get to do when we go back on them, we're going to feel completely different. Yeah, absolutely. And look, if it goes, and I'll tell this story. So I presented a show on GB News, which is headliners, and they got me in, and I was very happy, and they gave me the clicker, and I went to start,

and the clicker froze, and everything went wrong. Let's take a look at those. front pages. The Daily Mail are going with Make Coward Letby Face Us. This is to do with Nurse Lettby who is refusing to actually face the judge when she is being sentenced. The Times is now is going with Letby police. Fear that she

attacked 30 more babies, and I stumbled through it, and I didn't look very professional, and there was a few comments on Twitter and people saying this and that and whatever else, and we muddled through, and that's it. You wake up the next day, and everything's fine. Everything's fine. No one cares. You move on with your life. And I think people need to realize as well that the things that you think are huge deals, and in the moment they may be, and they may feel like it. And then everything just moves on.

You know, comedy is such a great training for things going wrong in life in that way. Because how many times of you and I, particularly when you're starting out, you go on stage, you don't do very well or you do really badly, which can happen occasionally. But the thing is, the next day, no one gives a shit. No one remembers who you are. Most of the people in that audience go, that guy wasn't very good on, whatever. But it feels so scary in the moment. Oh, it does. It does. It feels like the world is ending. It feels like you're being judged and everything is falling apart in front of your very eyes. But it's just a moment. That's all it is. That's all it is. And that's more than anything what for me this journey has been part of. It's just accepting the moment. Whatever the moment is, whether you're interviewing Eric Weinstein. I remember the first time we interviewed Douglas Murray, I was intimidated. I was, oh, you know, this guy's so intelligent, he's so smart.

But now I'm smart than him, so it's all good. No, but you just go, look, this is a guy, he's really smart, he knows his stuff. Let's have fun. Yeah. And we do, and I think it shows in the interviews. Yeah. And, you know, also, we've become better interviews. One of the things people don't realize is it's kind of hard in our game in the new media world

where, you know, you've spent months chasing a guest. Yeah. And then they come on. and they say something you don't necessarily agree with. Initially, when you're starting out, it can be tempting to just let it go. Whereas now I think we feel much more confident about challenging people when they say things that don't make sense to us.

And you've seen that in, you know, we go into every interview with a ton of good faith. Yeah. But also, if someone is saying something that's not quite true, we are going to get to the bottom of it. And, you know, for all the concerns we had about how they interview got spun and whatever. I interviewed with Sam Harris last year as a good example. And when we go back to America, we're going to interview Sam again. Yeah. And I'm really looking

forward to it. So am I. And so, you know, that's the other thing that's exciting is as we grow, we have the opportunity to get better. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's the opportunity to get better. It's the opportunity to talk to people who are the people that you really want to talk to. The people you've always dreamed of talking to, the people you've always dreamed about having a conversation with and just finding out who they are, what makes them work, and what you can take from them. You know, and the beautiful thing about the America trips

is that it's all, you know, to sit opposite someone like Bill, but it's a thrill. It's a thrill to sit opposite Sam Harris. I listen to Sam's app every morning when I meditate. Of course I do, I meditate, I'm a dickhead, right? But to talk to somebody like that, It's a privilege. Yeah.

It's a privilege. And to go on Joe Rogan and Bill Maher and all these other incredible opportunities. It's insanity. I remember when I went to L.A., I was just that... L.A. is such an interesting place, man. It's deeply weird and fascinating. And fascinating.

But I just remember standing there in the streaming sun. Yeah. Just thinking what an amazing opportunity. What an amazing ride this has been. Yeah. You know. And that, you know, we've been talking about gratitude for a long time here. But it's so, I just think for us, it's really easy to be grateful.

Yeah. Because we started this and basically in someone else's shed, effectively, as we talked about. And now, you know, we're doing this incredible stuff. How could you not appreciate every moment? Yeah, you have to. You have to take every moment and appreciate it. And realize as well that the difficult moments are going to teach you far more than the good moments. The good moments are wonderful and you should savor them and you should, you should, you

should treasure them and you should put them away and lock them away and just remember them. But it's the moments when they're tough. That's a moment where you were forged as a human being. And the fires of when things were really tough and you carried on pushing through, that's how you became the person that you are. Because there's a lot of people in that journey who would have turned around and given up, whatever the challenges are. Yeah, and one of the things I'm incredibly grateful for is the, you know, amazing people who watch and support the show. Yeah. Our locals community has grown a lot and it's how we fund the show.

It's the biggest single source of revenue that we have. So when people sign up to locals and, you know, some people give us $200 a month, some people give us $7 a month, wherever it is, that is what allows us to do what we do and to keep going. So, you know, every time we go on there and we chat with people, I just feel so immensely. grateful that we live in a world now where people can find each other, they can find content that they enjoy, they can go, you know what, I really believe in this. And there've been people at every step of the way. There's a guy called Tom who knew that we were struggling when we were still in that shed quote unquote. And he really liked the show. So he bought us new cameras and microphones. You just bought them for us. Yeah. And there were other people who came along at different

points and gave us money or people who give us money regularly. We've got top dog people who come and have lunch with us every now and again and whatever. And without those people, this will be pointless. We'd just be talking to ourselves. Absolutely. But the reason the people helped is because they could see us working and metaphorically pushing that car up the hill. And if you do that, in whatever path or whatever industry you work in, there will always be people who will be like, I'll help. Because people respect people who are trying, who are trying to achieve something, who are striving for something. Because to me, that's a human condition. When you stop striving for something, that's a moment when you effectively give up. You're no longer achieving. And I think a lot of

the reason why people get depressed or they feel depression is because they're not striving. They're going for something else. They're living in a state of fear. They're wanting comfort. But if you strive, if you want to achieve, it's not going to be easy. You may fail. Things may go sideways at some points. They're going to be part.

They're going to be unforeseen difficulties. But it's the only way to live. It is. And I'm just very grateful that we have that opportunity. So give us your money. Absolutely. proud of everything that we've achieved. I'm excited.

Oh, mate, the next, the rest of this year is going to be absolute dynamite. We've got, I mean, the stuff we've got coming up. Yeah. It's exciting as hell. In terms of what the media organization that we're building is going to look like, we'll be talking more about that when the time is right. But also, some of the stuff we're going to get up to in America, some of the brilliant guests we've got lined up here.

You know, you and I are going to continue. you putting out comedic and satirical stuff. It's just, like I said, there is no limit anymore. There is no limit to what we can achieve. There is no limit to what the organization can achieve. And also for the people at home, there's no limit to what you can achieve. What we want to do with this is fulfill our dreams, but also as well, we want to make an impact

so that people who watch our show can think to them, well, I don't want to create a YouTube channel, but I want to do X or Y or Z or whatever it may be, and that they can go ahead and do that. Because it's by doing that, actually, you're empowering other people, which will then come back to you. Well, I agree. And I think, you know, when you talk about I'm not special, you're not special, I know exactly what you mean, because we were two circuit comedians, neither of whom it had a massive success. No. We had nothing. We had no money. We had no studio. I had no production. We had no producer. We had no cameras. We had no microphones. We had no experience with any of that.

But we had an idea and we went for it. Yeah. That's really it. And we worked incredibly hard and we stuck together through very difficult things. And I feel that we're right at the beginning of our journey. This is for all the enjoyment and the success that we've had and how great we feel about where we are. This is just the beginning. Like I said, we've got an incredible team as well of people that are working really well together, they're going to drive this whole thing forward for us and allow us to just be the creative people that we started out being. And that's, you know, there's so many things. And look, the impact that we want to make on the world is that we live in these very,

very superficial times. This culture of everything being condensed into a tiny little tweet or whatever, that's not the way human community. is supposed to be. And it's almost a tragedy in the sense that even in our own lives, you and I, the conversations like this that you and I have and the conversations we have on our guests with our guests are probably one of the few times in our lives, in all of our lives, that we actually get to sit down and connect with another human being for an hour, uninterrupted by phones or whatever. And that is quite,

quite extraordinary that we get to do that for a living and that we get to share that with the world and people can join in those conversations and see people who are actually communicating in a way that human beings are supposed to communicate, you know, in a world that really, really, very rarely has the opportunity for people to do that. Yeah. And that's why it's so important that we do what we do, because we live in this world, and it's been said many times, but it's true. And it makes people miserable because you don't saw anything out. You don't discover anything. You don't play on social media or doing these little sound bites or watching TV, which is why no one watches it anymore because it's inherently fake every single thing about it. So as we move forward,

we're going to be doing more interviews, more conversation, and talking to people who are going be even more exciting. Can't wait. So follow us on social media, head on over to locals and subscribe there, and we'll see you very soon with more amazing content. Take care.