TRIGGERnometry - "White Privilege is a Divisive Idea" - Funke Abimbola

Episode Date: April 28, 2021

Dr. Funke Abimbola MBE is a businesswoman, lawyer, public speaker and TV contributor. Bia Rebel: Get your Ramen Kit here: https://biarebel.com/store/ols/categories/ramen-kits Zingiberi Bakery: Use CODE TRIGGERED https://www.thezingiberibakery.co.uk/ Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.PayPal.me/triggerpod https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kitten. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our terrific guest to date is a lawyer, healthcare executive and diversity leader from K. Abimbollah. Welcome to Trigonometry. Hello, thank you very much. It's good to have you on the show. We'll tell everybody a little bit about how this happened and all of that. But before we do, just explain to people what is your background, who are you, how do you happen to

be sitting in the sea right here talking to us? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Nigerian-born. Very, very proud of that. I moved here for educational reasons many, many, many years ago now. I am from a privileged Nigerian background, and that's going to be very relevant for our discussion later on. My first career is in law. I worked as a corporate lawyer for over a decade in different law firms. I then moved into the global pharmaceutical industry and worked there at senior leadership. level for another 10 years. But all along, I was very, very concerned about the lack of diversity in the profession itself, that people were being excluded from entering the profession.

I just thought, given what we do as lawyers, it's very important that's representative of the full population. And I started doing a lot of work around that about 20 years ago, and I've been doing that ever since. And it's interesting that you mentioned that because actually the reason that you contacted us and you wanted to come on the show and talk about it, you actually, you actually express some concerns to us about the way the concept of privilege is now being discussed. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I got the sense that you felt that some of the terms and the language around it was becoming quite divisive and unhelpful. So what made you want to talk to us about it?

I wanted to have an objective platform to discuss this. And I was finding that that wasn't widely available. And I couldn't understand why. And I realized that my message is probably not as popular. or mainstream as maybe the bigger media would be interested in hearing about. You know, the idea that it's not all about white privilege goes very much against the grain now. And there's such a focus on white privilege that it completely excludes other forms of privilege that could be factored into why some groups in society do better than others.

I have real concerns about how simplistic it's become now with a focus on white privilege. And it's very divisive. you know, no one reacts well to that, really, if they're honest. And that's why I got in touch with you guys to see if you'd be interested in having conversation about it. So let's just get into the conversation. What do you think of the idea of white privilege and the way it's being used at the moment? I think it's overly simplistic.

It's a broad brush approach that can be very, very convenient if you're trying to push a certain type of agenda. But ultimately, it's not going to leave. to an inclusive society. And white privilege is a very, very nuanced concept. I mean, I'll give you a good example of my own awakening around that. You know, Nigeria is part of the Commonwealth. I was born in a post-colonial Nigeria.

So the hierarchy was very, very firmly set in terms of if you saw someone white and still, you know, if you still see someone white now, you assume they're an expatriate in Nigeria and they're afforded privileges and lots of assumptions flow from that, behaviors and so on. So I came to this country with that sort of frame of mind, albeit that I'm from a privileged background myself. And I realized very quickly that not everyone who has white skin has socioeconomic privilege, which is, of course, what we all assumed in Nigeria, right? And the

biggest wake-up call for me was I started doing work with law firms around diversity. And I I remember speaking at an event almost 10 years ago. And the senior partner of the firm stood up, welcomed everyone. I was doing a speech. And in my mind, I was thinking, you are the problem. You know, you're a white guy in your 50s. You're the reason why no one, you know, if you're black, if you're, you know, lacking financial, you know, funds to get into the profession,

it's your fault that people can't get in if they're disabled. You know, all these underrepresented groups were going through my mind. And that was the dialogue I immediately assumed. And I thought, don't act on it. You know, talk to the guy first. But I'd be lying if I said that wasn't what I was thinking. I spoke to him and we've become the best of friends since then. He's great friends with my son, who was the same colour as me and 18.

This chap is now in his late 50s. Still white, you know, so that's not changed. But I made so many assumptions about him. He wasn't from a socioeconomically privileged background at all. I think he still is the first in his. family to go to university, he had slogged it out to reach that position. It wasn't easy for him and actually was doing so much to improve the lot of others. But I immediately assumed that he was the enemy. And thank goodness I didn't act on that. My fear is that a lot of people do act on that

assumption and it leads to so much misunderstanding society. And that's what I'm trying to stop from happening. Fonke, what do, when we use the term white, privilege. What do you mean by that? So what I think it means in some context is that for historical reasons, and we can talk about, you know, the slave trade and how that set a hierarchy around the colour of your skin and imperialism and colonialism. But for historical reasons, there was a clear pecking order based on the colour of your skin. And, you know, the whiter you are, the more privileges you've got, you were treated better and so on. Now, that's for very hardwired historical reasons.

And the media has picked up on that now, like the media just reinforces that messaging. So I think that's what the understanding of white privilege comes from, is that very, very simplistic view that on the face of it, the assumptions that are made about you will vary hugely, depending on the colour of your skin. Walking around trying to get here today, you know, people would not assume,

would they, that I'm a lawyer, I've done this, I've done that, because I'm a black woman, and it wouldn't immediately cross anyone's mind that I'd done all these things. So I get... Do you think that's true? Like, if you open your mouth, I would immediately assume that you're well-educated from a middle-class background, probably are a lawyer. But that's because you're woke. Yeah, I'm the workers of them all, as you will know.

But do you see what I'm saying? Like, particularly in this country, the class thing is often due to your accent. And also the other thing, just to pick up, and I want to open up the conversation is even that analysis seems a little bit simplistic to me. And here's why. I'm not sure that you get white privilege if you're in China or in Japan. I've been to Japan. You don't get any white privilege. Or maybe in the Middle East, there's other places where the majority aren't white.

Being white, not necessarily an advantage. So I accept the idea of majority privilege. And I think that's a more useful concept if we want to talk about this. Do you sure I'm... I completely get what you're saying, and that's why I myself am struggling to come up with a definition of it, because the reason I'm here today

is because I actually don't believe that that's the case. So I'm struggling myself to... But what I would say is where someone has made assumptions about me because I'm black. So my first interview, many years ago, for a corporate solicitor's role,

I walked in, suited and booted, I'd spend a fortune on my suit. I looked apart. I walked up to reception, and I said, I'm here for the job with, and I named the name of the corporate partner, partner. And the receptionist said, oh, that's odd. I thought he already had a secretary.

So it could have been because I'm female, possibly. And I said, I don't know about his secretarial status. I mean, I've got no idea. I'm here for the junior solicitor's role. She was mortified, embarrassed and so on. Now, you could think, you know, what made her assume that? Maybe because I was female. But when I actually interviewed in that firm, there were no other black solicitors at that firm. The only black women at that firm were secretary. So in her experience, she assumed I must be a secretary. Now, for me, I have nothing against secretaries. I was hugely supported by secretaries when I was in law firms.

Many of them were still close friends now. But the assumption that I was somehow less than in some way, or I couldn't possibly be a solicitor. And that sort of thing carried on happening throughout my career. I've been assumed to be the trainee solicitor when I was actually quite senior. Now, you could say, I look a bit younger than I, am and, you know, could explain it away in so many ways, but it was assumed I was a paralegal when I was almost at partnership level, and on and on. So that's where I can begin to see how, if I've been a

white woman in that scenario, would the same assumptions have been made? So I can see what aspects of white privilege could apply there. But, as you say, I open my mouth and people immediately realise that, my goodness me, you know, this is no paralegal. tea lady, whatever it might be, this is someone who's from a privileged background. Do you think that's, again, just exploring the argument, right? Because I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. But I remember Trevor Phillips, who we've had on the show recently, who I have tremendous respect for talking about this on Andrew Maher's show many, many years ago.

And he was saying, well, you know, one of the ways that structural racism manifests itself is when I walked into the broadcasting house today to do this interview, someone asked me who I'm here to collect, right? Now, I can totally understand why, as the individual in that situation, that would be upsetting, right? Because you are being judged on how you look. Absolutely you are. There's no question. But equally, the person asking that question, it could just be because of history and because of how recently the ways of migration have come into this country. I've been to Broadcasting House several times. The truth is, most of the people who are from ethnic minority backgrounds there are security are you know whatever and that's

that might be a product of racism but it might just be a product of history and so you know to say i don't know i just feel very i'm curious about that aspect of it because it could be just people responding to what they see they're going well all of the black people i've seen in here before have been doing this kind of job so i assume that and you know when i was a translator i looked very young people would make all sorts of assumptions about my skill level because I looked very young. And I'm just worried about how I think sometimes there's a temptation to weave a few different incidents together and suddenly you get like racism when it may not have been. I completely get it and I have to be honest and say, whilst my pride was wounded by these,

you know, random instances that I've mentioned, there are a few more long as than LeVane. I could live with that with the explanation you've just given. where it became a real issue for me was when I was trying to enter the profession. So my name is obviously not an English name. And I've now been qualified for over 20 years. So we're going back a long way now. But name discrimination is real when you're applying for a job. The evidence does support that.

And, you know, there's a lot of data that shows. And I was genuinely shocked by that because up to that point, you know, privately educated aspirational parents. I'd worked incredibly hard, done really well academically. I'd got into a top law school. As far as I was concerned, I'd done everything that was expected of me. And I was really shocked when I would get automatic rejections for roles. Friends of mine who were West Indian with Anglicised names or getting interviews.

Some didn't have grades as strong as mine. So after a while, I thought, hang on a second. Something's not quite right here. So you can look at that and say, you have a more anglicised name, you'll do better, right? You may not actually be white, ironically, but you'll at least get your foot in the door. So that's another element of where I can see the white privilege argument sort of aligning. But if you're Polish, you'll have problems, right? Right. So it's not really about being white, is it? This is the thing. And that's why I

genuinely struggle. You know, when you ask me, what's my understanding of white privilege, I find it really difficult to actually answer that question because it's so nuanced that just using it as a blanket term is problematic. You've got to look at the context and look at what the actual barriers are in that scenario. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. I know absolutely what you mean.

So my mother's from Venezuela. You've never mentioned that on the show before. But my mum wanted to call me Francisco Jaime and my dad, because it was in South London, in 1982, went, we are not calling that boy that name. because he was worried about racism. Therefore, I was given an anglicised name, and that's why everyone now thinks I'm a woman.

But do not think as well that we use this term white privilege, and it stopped being an explanation of something, it stopped being a discussion point, and it's now being used as a weapon almost. Yeah, and that's what I have a problem with. I think we need to talk about privilege. Take away the white aspect and attaching that to it, and talk about the different forms of privilege.

You know, let's look at what privilege actually means. It's an unearned benefit. So I'm privileged because I happen to have been born into the Nigerian background that I was born into. My parents believed in me, had high hopes for me, had the financial means, and on and on and on. It would be remiss of me to say because of white privilege that somehow I was fundamentally disadvantaged. I mean, it's crazy for me to say that. And I think using white privilege as this weapon, as you say, is so divisive. You know, it gets people's backs up.

If you're from a white working class background, I mean, you're almost basically thinking, hang on a second. What privilege are you talking about? You know, I do so much work with around socioeconomic access to the legal profession because there's some real problems there. You know, funding and not being able to get into the right schools. And, you know, the profession is still very, very, very. rigid in terms of the requirements to enter. So I'm very aware that you can't use white privilege

in that setting. You know, someone's gone to a failing comprehensive and they're white. How on earth can I say to that person that they enjoy white privilege? They don't. Do you know what I mean? So it's become a weapon and it's become, in my mind, a very lazy way of trying to circumvent some of more nuanced conversations that need to be happening around this. And it's not inclusive. You know, it's not going to get us to this society where there's open access based on talent. And that's what I'm all about.

If someone has that talent, that should be what gets them in to whatever profession. And it shouldn't matter, you know, if they're gay, whatever the underrepresented group is, black, white, whatever. Are you talented? Do you have that raw potential? to become a lawyer, doctor, you know, a techie, computer scientists, whatever it might be. That's all that should matter. Very utopian, I know, but that's what I believe anyway.

No, I agree with you. We're sort of starting by analyzing some of the stuff that other people are doing, and I want to get to the healthy conversation. But let's address another word, which I think, and, you know, I introduced you as a diversity leader. And I think diversity is another word that is now being increasingly misused. Diversity no longer means diversity. Like, it seems to be a diversity. It seems to have taken on a new meaning. And I think a friend of mine was tweeting about it the other day. He posted a bunch of photographs

of a diversity board and they're all black. And you're going, well, I'm not sure this is diversity. Like, I have no problem with a group of people who are all black getting together and advancing certain interests. But let's not pretend that this is diversity, right? This is

just an advocacy group for one particular. Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But But it's not diversity anymore. And we've started to misuse that word as well. I think Mike Graham, when we had him on the show, he made the point about the Korean film Parasite. Everyone celebrated this diverse movie winning the award.

He was all Koreans. Do you think that's a word we're starting to misuse as well? I think so. And I have my own sort of definition. I'm all about redefining terms, right? You're right. Let's do that. It starts with diversity.

and it's actually developed from Werner Myers, who's the Inclusion Strategy, the Vice President of Inclusion Strategy at Netflix. So she talks, she uses this dance analogy, and I'll walk you through the steps because it's really, really powerful. So it starts with diversity,

which is being invited to the party. Inclusion is being asked to dance. So I thought, actually, once you've been asked to dance, you want to be able to dance as if no one's watching you, right, at a party. So that, for me, is stage three,

which is belonging. And then we're working towards equity, which is where you're actually on the party planning team. You can decide who gets invited, the mix of guests, and so on. The problem with just focusing on diversity is that it's actually very superficial.

So to your point, it could be all about the visual representation without factoring some of the other aspects that are important as well. We're actually working towards diversity of thought. To be on that party planning team, using my final stage analogy, we want as many diverse groups

around that table as possible. So you're not inviting the same types of people to the party, for example, that you're not, you know, having the same types of parties. I mean, it's a silly example to use, but it actually really, really gets the point across about how you might want an organisation to feel once you've got the equity part sorted out. Interviews, you know, so being invited to the party, who decides who gets invited and making sure that's a diverse representation of society. So you're right. Diversity in itself is hugely problematic, as a a focus. Equity is quite a quote-unquote problematic word for a lot of people because, you know, it gets used by different people in different ways. And to some people, what that means is a quality

of outcome, right? It's not about your talent, which is what you were talking about before. It's about, you know, black and white people in all circumstances should have the same outcomes. And it seems, again, very blanket sometimes. What do you mean when you use that word? It's actually the equity of access to come in and be able to make decisions. That's what really drives and influences change in organisations. So it's not enough to be invited in the door. And that's why we see some organisations where at the lower end of the organisation, it is very diverse across many, many different underrepresented groups. And then the higher up you go, arguably the less diverse it becomes. Now, that is why equity, the way I define it, is important. You know, equity means

something different if you're a corporate lawyer. I mean, it means you're getting shares in the company. So I'm really, really aware of what you're saying. But if you don't have the quality of access, the equity of access in the first place, how are you going to have the outcomes at the end? You do need that pipeline of the diverse talent coming in the door in the first place. Isn't that just a time thing, though, to a large extent? Just like, you know, we've got all the diversity initiatives now, they're seeming to be working, broadly speaking, right? So 20 years, 30 years from now, the senior positions are all going to be mixed and, you know, filled by different people anyway. Isn't that basically it? It does take time. And that's what I say to all the, you know,

clients I work with now. I say you need to be patient, more than anything else. This is a 5, 10, 15, 20 year plan. it starts with engaging young students in schools, you know, in years nine and ten, in the local community disadvantaged schools, getting them in for shadow work experience, and that's how you build up the pipeline. And some clients want the quick fix, you know, arguably. So they'll be looking straight away at the board appointments. And that's where it can be a problem because, you know, people can think you're a diversity hire and, you know, all this sort of very, very insulting.

even if you're worthy of the position, often there's real resistance to that approach. I prefer the long, slow, steady approach where you're sporting young children very, very early on, and they then join the firm later on, and they work their way through that way. And I think that's probably the best way of doing it, because we talk about diversity.

You know, it's all very superficial, because if you look at, you know, the legal profession, how many of them come from a council estate in Middlesbrough, how many of them come from very, very poor backgrounds? I would hazard a guess that even, you know, the people who are Asian or black or African, whatever background they come from, are all probably quite wealthy and very privileged.

Yeah, they really are. I mean, it's something like almost 50%, I think, of partners, so that, you know, sitting on the sort of leadership team, if you like, are from privately educated backgrounds when only 7% of the children in this country have had a private education. So clearly, you know, I mean, that's a nonsense, right?

And, you know, I did a research piece just on that, you know, just on the social mobility challenges, because I could sense that that was happening. Like, what's going on? You know, how many more people from a private background do we have in this firm? And you're absolutely right. There's a real bias in favour of those who are privately educated. Even the universities that people graduate from in the league profession,

It's very elitist. Russell Group, you know, the top 24. And for some firms, Oxbridge, you know, they really go for the Oxbridge graduates. And that's what they prioritise. So it's an issue, you know, it's a real issue. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being,

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In fact, respected food critic Jay Rayner called them deserving of poetry. What a cuck, man up, Jay. Their sauces, noodles and broths are created using skills that were developed over years of working in Michelin-starred kitchens. They're dead easy to make, the noodles take one minute to cook, and the whole dish takes only 10 minutes to put together in the comfort of your own home. I'm hungry just explaining them. this to you. You're always hungry, mate. I mean, that's a fair point. Go to bea-rebel.com. That's B-I-A-R-E-B-E-L.com and get a tasty flavour of the East in your dinner time. And do you not sometimes feel as well that we talked about it, like, you know, my partner, she is,

she's Puerto Rican, well, American Puerto Rican heritage. And she said that she went to Columbia University. And she said that because there was this diversity hire, that she had to become this feeling, that she was only there because, you know, she was a token in her way of putting it. Do you not sometimes feel that when we do these diversity drives, that sometimes it has this unexpected consequence as well, whereby the people who then get there, a lot of vast majority of time, off their own backs, aren't taken as seriously. Sometimes that can happen. But there's a way that when I'm talking to my clients that, you know, the messaging around why you're doing what you're doing is really,

really important, Francis. So, you know, it has to align with the strategy of the organisation, for example. It has to be all about, you know, maximising potential of the business, the organisation, improving the benefit of the service to the consumer, the customer, you know, the product that you're developing. These are the sorts of things that actually gets people on board and away from this tokenistic idea. Because the problem is if you don't have interventions, is the way I call it, where you are setting targets and saying we've got to make sure on this shortlist, we have a 50, 50% shortlist. Change just, it just won't happen.

And, you know, you look at the shortlist and you think, why is it that we're not getting the more diverse? And you start digging deeper and seeing what are the barriers earlier on to those individuals not actually getting shortlisted? One of my clients admitted recently that there was real hiring bias. They, you know, large, I shouldn't say, well, it's an investment bank, I wouldn't say any more than that. They'll sue the crap out of us.

Don't say it. We're going to need your services if you say it. Someone to defend this. But they reached out to me, you know, because they realized that they'd interviewed over 20 black candidates out of a large cohort. And not a single one of them progressed beyond first interview. And all of them were from top universities, had the experience. So, you know, this recruitment manager said there must be. I mean, I can't believe the not single one.

of those candidates progressed. So I'm working with them around bias. And, you know, the hiring managers, what is it that's making you think that, you know, selecting out who on paper are outstanding candidates? Do you think part of it is as well, we just feel more comfortable with people who have the same political opinions as us, you know, look the same at us, because we're inherently tribal by nature? Affinity bias is real. It really is. And that crosses racial lines. You know, I'm a divorced, you know, single mum. If I hear someone's interviewing and they're also a divorced single mum, I will be in favour of them getting the job. Bigot. You know, I'm there. I'm all over it. And because of that, I've always made sure I've

had others in my team who don't have that bias. So I don't have a whole team of single moms. I mean, you know, and that's because I'm very aware of my own lived experience, what they might be going through, and I want to help them, right, because they are like me. And they could be white, black, blue, green, you know, it wouldn't matter. But because we have that affinity, so that is a real thing. And it applies, you know, going to the same school, same university, same law school. So affinity bias is really what we're trying to overcome with some of these more nuanced decisions within organisations. Yeah, absolutely. And you think the best way to do that is by just having, going, right, then when you do the hiring process, it has to be,

50-50. Would you, are you in favour of just having sort of blind CVs? Yeah. I'm a huge believer. I've seen the results. You know, having blind CVs at the beginning. You unblind the process, obviously at some point because you have to meet the candidate. But the final panel needs to be a mixed panel. People from outside that team, very junior members of other teams. Those often lead to the best and fairest decisions. Everyone on the panel has equal weighting as well. So I've seen this work very well in the Civil Service, actually. They do this quite a lot, and a lot of public sector organizations do that. The final decision is driven by true diversity of thought. And you have, you know, intergenerational, you know, they try and factor in as many

different aspects and ways of thinking as possible. And you can get a much fairer decision that way than if you didn't do that. That's really interesting. They found that in American, American football. I don't know if you're familiar with this. I can't remember the name of the Runey Rule. The Runeer Rule. What they did is basically they introduced a policy where they had to have a black applicant for the coaching position as part of the shortlist. And they just interview them. They didn't have to hire them. And what they found was that was a way to overcome whatever structural barriers still existed. And when you got the person in, well, you judge them on the merits. And if they were good, you'd hire them. And I'm really enjoying this conversation because I

think it is inevitably true that all human beings have some sort of bias. And I think one of the things that has started to happen over the last five years has been the pushing of this divisive stuff that we talked about earlier is now pushed people into a corner and now no one wants to admit there's any bias of any kind in society. And you'll see in the comments under this interview, you know, but actually we are all biased to some extent. Now, you know, I'm not biased against black people, but I am in favor of, let's say, people who are from the same economic background or the same people who understand the same jokes or get the same references or did comedy or whatever it might be. So we all have some sort of bias. And now we don't want to admit it

anymore because the moment you admit any sort of bias, you know, oh, you only hire single months, which you didn't say, but that's how people hear it. Right? And now suddenly you're a bigger, you know? And I just worry about that so much because we have to be able to have an honest conversation about these issues and we can't anymore because the moment you admit any flaw, any prejudice of any kind, you know, you're in trouble. You're in real trouble. I just, I think that's a big problem. It is. And I guess for me, what really disarms people when they meet me is that I do own up to my bias. I mean, I've said this very publicly about the single mom thing. There are many other examples, by the way. And suddenly it's okay to admit to it because what I,

what I teach everyone is that you can overcome your biases by saying if this person wasn't a single mom, would I still hire them for the job? It's a simple question to ask, right? But just turn it on its head and flip it around. You know, I had a colleague where I used to work previously who she came up with this concept called flip it to test it, which is exactly what I've just shared with you now. And it's a really simple way of keeping your biases in check because we are lazy as human beings. You know, this affinity bias thing, your brain, goes into overdrive, there's too much decision-making information. And you just want shortcuts to make a decision. If someone's had the same lived experience as you, looks like you, et cetera, et cetera, you have affinity with them because it's easier for you to process that. It's harder to try and align yourself with someone with whom you feel there's no commonality. But the reality is we have so much more in common than divides us. And this is where I'm trying to get everyone to around.

these issues. But do you not think as well, it sounds like you're doing great work, but in many ways it sounds like you're swimming against the tide. Because more and more throughout society with, you know, the rise of identity politics is, well, you know, you're a black woman and this means this, and you're a white man and that means this. And it just feels up we're sort of moving away from each other more and more day by day, doesn't it? In some circles, I would agree with you, definitely. But with the work I do in corporates, I'm seeing incredible things happening there that I never ever anticipated could happen. You know, I'm hearing back from clients' feedback

that I never thought they'd have that light bulb moment in the way that they have. But you need to be willing to be vulnerable. So I am very, very open about what I've, you know, where I've got it wrong. And I give silly examples of things I've said, which really again disarms, those who think that I've always got it right. I'm still learning like everyone else, right? So I see real hope with many of the organisations, and there's some large global clients I work with

who are doing incredible work around this. And the way I sort of see it is that there'll be a different burning platform for different people. There'll be a different reason why they want to get this right. And I just try and tap into what that reason could be. It could be all about the profit for some. I really don't care if that's a reason what they're focused on if it means that the actual work environment will improve

for those who have the talent to be working there. And that's what it's really all about for me. It's a really, really important thing to do because I think where the resentment comes in is when people feel they haven't been given the opportunities. That's where people get angry and upset. And quite rightly so. If people think that they don't have a chance of doing something,

then they become resentful. Of course. And, you know, you could have done everything right. I mean, you could have worked really, really hard, overcome so many hurdles to get those grades, you know, being raised in the council of the state. You know, this isn't unusual. Some of the kids I mentor come from these really tough backgrounds.

And the thought that they would then be denied access because of their accent, you know, where they went to school, automatically ruled out because of their name, whatever it might be. Quite literally breaks my heart. I find it just crushing. to see that happen. But slowly that's changing. You know, with some of the blind CV

and other techniques that I mentioned earlier, those things are really changing things, but it takes time. Francis, do you like biscuits? Stupid question. If you like biscuits as much as him, you have to try Zinghi Berry Bakery. There are a small family-run bakery

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and get your biscuits today. I think I'm eating too many biscuits. Never heard him say that before. And how do you feel about the fact that, you know, with some of the changes that have happened, I do think we are increasingly encouraged to see rejection of our application, let's say through that lens to some extent.

So, you know, you've talked in the past about having to apply 150 times for jobs and whatever. I remember when I was at uni, I remember applying for 50 internships. I was a lot lazier than you, right? Only 50. Not getting a single positive response. Now, at the time, it never would have occurred to me that that was because of my name. I kind of thought it's because I'm lazy and I haven't worked as hard as I should have done. Do you know what I mean?

But I do think if I was 20 now, I think it would be quite tempting to think about things that way. I'm just really not so sure that that's a healthy way to think about these things. I think even when you are potentially being discriminated against, there's only really one answer on an individual level, which is to work hard and to get your foot through the door, you know, somehow. Yeah, and that's the thing. You know, I did have to make 150 phone calls. You're absolutely right. And I shouldn't have had to do that because, you know, I ticked all the, you know, all the academic criteria, all the things that were priority for law firms. So it was genuinely a surprise.

And when you see others getting the interviews and you're not, and you know, you just realise, hang on a second. I've got better grades. I went to a better university or whatever. But I think also it's a fact of life that we're in an increasingly competitive world. You are going to face more rejection for some of these opportunities. And there'll be times when it's got nothing to do with your race, gender, you know, sexual orientation. It's just that maybe there was another candidate who was better than you, you know?

And sometimes you just have to keep trying and hope that you have support around you to keep you hanging in there, which I did have, thank goodness. But many people don't even have that. And that's why it's so difficult for some. If you didn't have the support, if you didn't have the family structure, you know, I would have given up, frankly,

if I hadn't had my dad saying, you've got to keep at this. If I hadn't had my husband at the time saying, there's no option for you not to keep trying. You've just got to do it. There are many people who don't have. that. And again, I was very privileged to have that support, you know? Yes, as Francis always says, you've got to be like the ugly guy in the nightclub, just

coming up to everyone. No, no, no, no, speaks from experience. My word. Just be respectful. That's all. Just approach respectfully. But actually, you know, we just had Mercy Muraki on the show. I don't know if you, you watched that interview. And, you know, you talk about the parent situation, you know, you talk about privilege all you won. The number one privilege is to have two parents who love you. Yeah, very important. It's just, and without that, all the data basically

shows, if you don't have that, your life is that much harder. It's so, so key. I mean, you know, even though my ex and I are divorced, you know, we co-parent, we have the same values, high aspirations for our son, support him. We're on his case. I mean, you know, when he wants to give up piano, if you, yes, there's absolutely no way that was going to happen. He's glad he carried on, That is the most middle-class thing I've heard in an interview ever. Giving up piano. I thought you were going to say he was having trouble at school. No, no, the poor boy just gave up piano.

Bam! There were other things. You know, he was lacking focus in other ways. And, you know, the discipline of the piano exams was what he was actually resisting at the time. So even that's more nuance than what I said earlier. But, you know, as a black boy in this country, the statistics say one thing. But he's got two parents, a wider family, you know, goes to great school. So he's been given every advantage to maximise his potential.

But the family structure is key. It is so, so important. And anyone who glosses over that just, you know, is being really simplistic, actually. It matters. Of course it does. It matters a huge amount. You see it right the way through education. And particularly boys as well, they need that stabilising influence of a father.

Because once they get to a certain age, mum can't control them as well. Yeah. And it needs Dad to go in and go, you're... you're starting to take the Mick now. You know, it really does. And in situations where, you know, dad is absent for whatever reason, you know,

really good mentor can plug that gap. You know, I was involved in David Lammy's review of the criminal justice system and he asked me to look at role modelling, funnily enough, you know, of all things. So, you know, I walked into a workshop with 10 ex-offenders.

I mean, you know, it was one of the most interesting episodes of my life, shall we say. But it was fantastic talking to these young men, because what had helped them turn the corner once they'd left prison was they'd, you know, aligned with organisations that ran, you know, focus mentorship programs that plugged the gap, if you like, because the father was absent. And mom was having to do two or three jobs to keep, you know, play to them mothers. I mean, that's a terrible situation to be in. And that's what turned things around for them, Francis.

So, you know, the structure and support is so, so, so important. And if you have that, I think you can really, really achieve great things. And we use the word racism a lot and we bandy it around. Look, the reality is there's always going to be people of unpleasant opinions, unpleasant thoughts. How big a problem in the corporate environment do you think racism is? You're never going to be able to eradicate it completely, are you? No, you're not, but it's a spectrum of... Sounds like you're defending, isn't it?

Especially with my way. You just can't get rid of it. I think we should just, you know, live and let live. You're never going to get rid of racism. But what you can do is come up with practices and processes, if you like, that drive the behaviours that will combat these, you know, racist, you know, race-based decision-making, if you like. And that's what I'm seeing happening in the corporate world, you know,

around the name discrimination point, you know, having more people getting the interview in the first place with a non-anglicised name has led to a lot of change within some organisations. But, you know, we also have classism. There are other forms of isms that actually could end up trumping race-based decision-making in some places. What we're trying to do, what I'm trying to do, is move away from the isms. Let's focus on the raw talent. Right. Well, this is where I find this really, I think, a healthy approach where you go, look, all this stuff exists. To some extent, I think it's a lot less than it would have been 20 years ago, and this is something else I want to bring up.

But generally speaking, let's get the best people for the job. Let's get the best people for the job. And then whatever color, shape, whatever they are, it's kind of irrelevant, you know. That's how we always think of contriganometry when we need to take on somebody to do a certain job. We don't care what color or whatever they are. We just care can they do the job? And yeah, I understand there's going to be some, you know, unconscious stuff going on there. Plus we help deprive communities, which is why we got a scouser.

Our producer, answer. But I was going to ask you about the time of this, because I think so much of this conversation is people responding to their adolescent experience or their experience 20 years ago. Even the situation you talked about as a woman with an African name applying for jobs. I'm not sure that is as true now as it would be then. Certainly, I don't know about law, but in comedy, like, if you wanted to start stand-up comedy, you'd be on live at the Apollo about three weeks from now, because people would be like, it's great you have a, you know,

a charismatic young black woman coming through. Let's give her a hand up. And you'd be, you know, promoted probably ahead of your skill level even sometimes because of that's how it is. And I think we are now in a position where things have started to change. And it's important. And it's important. to kind of like not just keep your pedal to the metal in these drives. Does that make sense? I agree. I mean, certainly over my 20-year career, there's been huge improvement. Huge improvement.

Now, that's not to play down in any way the very real issues that still persist. But I'd be lying if I said the world 20 years ago when I was entering profession is the same now. It isn't. And I can look at law firms and see that broad range of talent that's coming through. and the data backs that up. It's not happening as quickly as we might like, but it is happening. And you're driving societal change in a sense.

Of course it's going to take time. It can't happen overnight. People need to build up their experience before they're promoted. You can't fast track certain processes. So that's where I have, I see huge encouragement can be drawn from that, where I compare, you know, it's important to look back and be really objective, actually, about the way things stood. You know, my son is going to.

have a much better outcome in today's world, despite all the, you know, divisiveness and all the things that going on, he will now know confidently that he will do well and that he's less likely to have some of the challenges that he could have faced 20 years ago. And that's just a fact. And those who say that's not the case, honestly, I think they're deluding themselves and trying to hold on to an old narrative. But things are still very, very tough. for some, and we can't move away from that either. You know, that's a fact as well. And the thing that people always point out is the CEOs,

and I imagine they're head lawyers, it's probably very, very, very white male, et cetera, et cetera. Mostly about hype, mate. Fonke, you'd be crushing it. Do you know this? I think 93% of top 14,500 CEOs are over 6-1, I think? Yeah, I'm just saying, what about me? Right, what about me?

But how do you think changing that is going to be, it's just a question of time, or do you think there more needs to be put in place to change the fact that people at the top still tend to be publicly school-educated, white and male? Even that is changing over time. I can think of at least five managing partners in law firms who are black.

I could, I mean, 20 years ago, I would never thought that was possible, you know? And not all from, you know, socioeconomically privileged backgrounds either. You know, one of them the lady is far from it. You know, very, very deprived background. Again, I won't name her, but she'll know exactly who she is if she watches this. So it takes time, right?

It takes time before people become partners. You know, to be promoted a partner, you need to have good clients and be billing a certain amount. And we don't want to shortchange that in any way. And patience is so important in all of this. You know, we just need to keep at it and slowly but surely that change will come, but we must avoid divisive language in that process. Yeah.

Do you think it would be helpful to celebrate how far we've come to some extent? Do you think that's a good thing, or do you think that's not doing justice to the people who are still struggling? I think there's a careful balance to be struck there, which is why the report, you know, Tony Seals report, unfortunately, backfired spectacularly. I mean, there are lots of issues around how it was delivered. you know, certain race correspondence weren't invited to have a look at the report beforehand and should have been. And there's a lot of, you know, really bad mismanagement in terms of the

release of the report messaging that came out, which did not help at all. What the report was trying to do in some sections were celebrating the progress that has been made. But unfortunately, it came across, and I read the whole thing twice, just to be sure, it came across as playing down some of the real challenges that still persist. Like what? What did you think it was being played down by the report? So it was oversimplifying the family structure piece to the point where, so I'm a single mother, right?

So according to this report, my son should, I mean, it was very simple. If the father's absent from the home, that that then means all these outcomes. But that's not always the case. Statistically speaking across the population. But, you know, so that immediately got my back up because I know lots of divorce moms and whose kids are doing well.

And the way that it separated out different ethnic groups as well was helpful up to a point, but again was actually quite divisive as well. So the point that was made about black boys that if you're black African and West African specifically, your outcomes are better. You know, what are the solutions to that, though, is what really should have been fleshed out? If a father is absent, well, what can we do to support? the mom who struck, you know, so reminding the mum that the father is absent, which a lot of, you know, people I know read, it's just very emotive stuff that doesn't move things forward.

And a lot of people are justifiably very upset by the way things like the slave trade was sort of summarised as the Caribbean experience. That, I mean, that is a really insulting thing to say to someone who's descended from slaves. And you just, Sorry, maybe I'm not understanding it and possibly some people watching. Sure, sure. What do you mean it's an insulting experience to say? I think the distinction, if I read the report as well, obviously, was that if you're a black African like you are, first generation,

I imagine your ancestors did not experience slavery. That would be the assumption. Whereas the reason potentially, and this is my opinion, that Caribbean in the UK do less well, is that they were the descendants of slavery. in many cases. And also they came to this country, not in, you know, 2000 or 1995 or whatever, but in like 1960 when there was overt racism and discrimination. I think that was the point of the report. So what was insulting, just to clarify? So the reference to the Caribbean experience

was actually to the experience of slavery. It wasn't the Caribbean experience here in the UK. And that really got a lot of my friends from that part of the world. Why? I just don't follow. Because the way it was perceived was that they were play, you know, they very neatly summarized what was a horrific period of history using those two words. And some people felt this wasn't a cruise. I mean, Caribbean experience makes it sound like you went on a cruise ship

and had fun in the sun. And I didn't see it that way, but I had to accept that, of course I wouldn't because that's not my, you know, my ancestors didn't have that direct experience. So I had to accept that because my friends from Caribbean had very, very different way of looking at it, it was a far, it was a very, very inflammatory use of language for which some of the commissioners that, you know, admitted that actually this is what they meant.

You know, they publish a clarification document and they apologize for the use of that phrase. So whilst I didn't read it that way, and this is the point that we must remember, The way the message lands for me, you know, there'll be someone somewhere who, their lived experience, it's a trigger for them. And you've got to actually accept that and try and find a more collaborative, inclusive way of trying to drive things through. And it's a real shame about that report. You know, if I'd had the chance to help to write it even, I would hope that I'd have phrased things slightly differently and had a bit more balance about just how tough things are for people now still in the UK from certain.

communities. It's interesting. And in particular, you were saying how tough things are for certain communities. Could you expand upon that point a little bit more? Well, the socioeconomic point is the biggest leveler that we face. You know, if you are born into a socially deprived background, irrespective of your race, you are going to find it challenging. It becomes a vicious circle.

I mean, you used to be a teacher, didn't you? You know, you'd have seen this with the kids. You know, it's very hard to overcome getting the top grades when you don't have the support at home. You don't have a quiet place to work at home. These are things that some of the young people I mentor tell me that, you know, my son's never had that problem, right? He has a quiet place to work and we've had to push him on occasion to actually make good use of that. But, you know, he has that support around him. And it becomes very, very difficult. If you don't get the grades, then you can't get into the top universities where, you know, that's the preferred

university of choice for many, many employers and on and on and on. Now, if you are born into socially deprived background, and you're also a visible minority, that's a double disadvantage if you have an African name. It's a lot to overcome. It's a lot to overcome. If you think about the many, many, many different steps that you need to go through to get those good grades, to get the qualifications to actually stand in good stead for these really good jobs. And there's a huge section of our society that is struggling with that. And I think that's what the was sort of trying to get across that there are pockets where that's not the case. But actually, they tend not to be those who are socially deprived in some.

I wish they'd looked a bit more into the socioeconomic aspects as well. You know, it became too simple. The nuances that were drawn were far too simple for me. But it's a tough job to do, right? That's what I was going to say. In this political climate, like, someone is always going to find a phrase that triggers them. And I'm not saying it's not reasonable. I don't know, but it's a very difficult job

to prepare a report like that. And I come back to the question, we started this bit of the conversation with, which is how do we celebrate the progress we've made without dismissing the fact that some people still have a hard time of it? A good tweet. I think for me, the way I do it is through role modeling. You know, I do all sorts of things to get the positive stories out there.

I'm doing a podcast series at the moment. I'm interviewing a really wide range of leaders, different sectors. Is it out already? It's out already. What's it called? It's called the power of privilege and allyship. And I'm interviewing many, many different types of leaders. Some are actually very junior, but are still leading in their own way,

different backgrounds, different races, different socioeconomic backgrounds. My son features in a few of the episodes because he's had such positive impact, if you want to call it that, from some of these individuals. the gentleman I immediately assumed was the problem when I went to his law firm. You know, he's very good friends with my son. And they talk in one of the episodes about how that relationship, how they've learned from each other. And you'd never, I mean, if you look at the two of them, they couldn't look more different. And yet, they've supported and learned from each other.

And that's the magic that can happen when we open our minds to it. So it's important that we try and learn from each other as well around some of these lived experiences and open things up a bit more. Can I pick up another language thing? Allyship. Well, I wasn't going to say that, but actually, I mean, we can get into that if you want. But a lot of these words, they're like the trigger words for the left, the trigger words for the right, there's trigger words for everybody, right?

So lived experience is a personal trigger for me. And I'd tell you why, because I'm like, why do you need to put lived? It's just your experience. Do you know what I mean? Like, why do you use that phrase? I suppose lived is that you've really, really felt it. It's always like you need that validation that I lived through this and that was my experience.

But yeah, I mean, I get your point. You know, if you say my experience was this, I suppose the fear is that someone might say, well, was that your perception more than your experience? It might get watered down. But the thing is all lived experience is perception. All of our experiences go through our filters and we don't really know what happened.

Okay, well, you brought it up yourself. Let's talk about allyship. How can Francis and I be great allies? So again, this is another, you know, word that gets people's backs up. They don't really understand what's meant by it. I talk about becoming friends with people, understanding where they're coming from, people who aren't like you, and that you happen to work with, because I do this in the workplace, right?

It really is as simple as that. And I give examples of very simple things you can do to stand up for that person, calling it out. You know, I've been, I'm a straight woman. I've been in rooms where terrible jokes were being made about homosexuality. And, you know, we'll not. He was off-camera. Okay, what are you doing here?

But, you know, I will call that out. And I have done. And I said that you shouldn't be. That's completely unacceptable. And that's what being an ally means is that you call out that behavior. You know, you stand up for something. You know, I've done often in meetings where I notice that someone's not had their say, I'll make sure the person leading that meeting that, you know,

draws out that person's opinion. And I'll say, you know, name the person, or do you have any thoughts about, you know, that's what allyship is about. Where I've enjoyed allyship in trying to, you know, the cause of getting more diversity, inclusion in the legal profession, corporate world, is where I've partnered with, you know, white men, because in some circles, that partnership is really important, right? Where, you know, opening doors for meetings to talk about these cultural issues that can happen in the workplace has only been possible because I've got a friend, you know, who's also an ally, so it's put action behind it, who knows the other senior partner at that firm. It gives me, I suppose,

a bit of credibility, if you want to call it that, that we're on the same page, and we're driving the conversation together. It also means that there's less suspicion of what my motives might be, right? If I've actually allied with somebody who looks more like them, it's a joint effort then. So that's where allyship is really, really key. And that's why so much change is happening in some companies. You know, people sign up to things they can be doing, you know, actual day-to-day stuff they can be doing to drive this change. And it has a real ripple effect across the whole organisation. Well, I've got more questions, mate. I'm sure you have. I'm getting, I'm just getting warmed up. No, if you don't have anything, I just wanted to ask a couple of more things if that's cool with you.

Look, I've loved this conference. And it's great. And I wish, I wish to God that when I'm on, I don't know, Good Morning Britain or whatever, it was you sitting there and we were having this conversation as opposed to, I'm not going to name them, but you know the usual people. I just wish that was the conversation. I wish this was the conversation we had in the mainstream because I think you're making good points. I really do. And I may or may or not agree on everything, but at least we're having a conversation, right? I just think it's so important. But one thing that's become quite a contentious in recent times is unconscious bias training. Yes. Oh, hello. I've never believed in it. I've never seen, you know, I'm so glad that if there's an area where I'm glad there's been a backlash, I'm really glad unconscious bias training has been seen for what it is.

You know, it's not as simple as that. I see this as starting a conversation. Really, I've seen. magic happened from that. Start a conversation, doing reverse mentoring. You know, in one firm, it was a 50-something-year-old senior partner who was male and a black, socioeconomically, you know, deprived, trainee solicitor, female. I partnered them, you know, paired them up as, and the magic that happened, you know, she had misconceptions about him and vice versa. Together they came up with all sorts of solutions to drive, you know, things forward. No amount of unconscious vice training

was going to achieve that. You know, we need to sit down and start a conversation about these really difficult experiences. I won't use the word lived anymore. But by having conversations and actively listening, which a lot of us don't do, we're waiting to interrupt all the time, you know, we're just waiting to get our point across.

If you actively listen to that other person and listen to what they've been through, you can find more common ground. If they're willing to do the same field, you, I've seen incredible things happen. So simple and yet we don't do it. We don't do it enough. So why do we persist with this unconscious bias training then if it doesn't work as you, as you've alluded to? I guess it was sometimes seen as a quick fix, right? You bring someone in, you pay them this amount of money, they do it, they run a session, you can tick it off.

My approach takes longer. I mean, it does, right? You have to build trust. This is the quick fix mentality you've talked about. You know, but the reality is for sustained change. you need to invest the time. But it's so worth it, you know, it really is. And it is, again, it comes down to that quick change. But isn't it also as well because it's about perceptions and perceptions as a reality. Look how tolerant we are.

We've had 32 diversity trainings this month alone. Yeah, yeah. And for a lot of organisations who are, you know, looking at targets in that way, you know, the way they set out their targets is, you've done this and this port-a-da-da-da. my approach is harder to sort of quantify in that way, right? So I had to come up with different ways of gauging success, you know, hence reverse mentoring,

you know, how many work experience schemes have you offered to years nine and ten in the local schools? You know, these are the sorts of, you know, metrics, I hate that word, but, you know, that's what we're using in corporate circles. And that way you can measure in the same way. Companies like to have things to measure, right? They like to have figures and track things and so on. But I think we've been measuring the wrong things quite often. And I'm trying to change that mindset.

All power key. Thank you. Well, it's been an absolutely brilliant interview. Thank you very much for coming on the show. The last question we always have is, what's the one thing that we're not talking about, but we really should be? So I'm really worried about the mental health implications of lockdown.

I see a lot of really worrying trends around that, especially with young people. They've been robbed off so much opportunity because of these school closures. And it applies to a lot of young people, you know, many of whom are coming up to voting age, will be voting at the next election. And it's really, really sad that the government doesn't seem to have become alive to that in any way. and they're not really planning how they're going to deal with that. It's a real problem and we really should be talking about that more. It's massive.

It's something we've talked as much as the YouTube guards allow us to about on the show quite a bit. And I think you're absolutely right. It's a massive concern and it's massively under, it's not including all the polling about everyone who thinks lockdown's gray. It's not including any of that. But there's a lot of people who've killed themselves. There's a lot of people who've really suffered. And we get emails every day from people who are saying,

like, you know, your shows or whatever is the only thing that's keeping me in any way saying. And with all due respect to us, I just don't think that's our job. And, you know, that's a big worry. It's a big worry. And you're absolutely right. No, it's very concerning. On that happy note, where can people go and check out your podcast and anything else find you online, etc.? So I've got a website, which is funcarebimbola.com.

I'm on LinkedIn. It's Dr. Funcairbinvola, MBE. I've got a Twitter account, which is at Champ One Diversity. And I'm also on Instagram with my business name, the Austin Bronte Consultancy. So there's no excuse for not getting me in touch. Well, perfect. Thank you so much for coming on. And thank you for watching.

We will see you very soon with another brilliant interview like this one. Or catch a raw show, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday, 7pm. Oh, they always go out at 7 p.m. UK time. You didn't say that big. You could have just said UK time. No, bye. We're just going to have a domestic now.

Bye.