TRIGGERnometry - Why Britain Imports American Problems - Tomiwa Owolade

Episode Date: October 1, 2023

Tomiwa Owolade is the author of ‘This is Not America: Why Black Lives in Britain Matter’, a book which was chosen as a non-fiction highlight of 2023 in The Times, Guardian, Observer, Irish Times and New Statesman. The book is available here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1838956212/ SPONSORED BY: ExpressVPN. Go to https://www.expressvpn.com/trigger/ and get an extra 3 months free on a one-year package! SPONSORED BY: Manscaped. Get 20% off and free shipping when you use the code TRIGGER20 at https://www.manscaped.com/ Become a Premium Member to receive exclusive benefits https://triggernometry.supercast.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube:  @xentricapc   Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This kind of pessimistic narrative, which we've mostly imported from America, is simply inconsistent with reality. I think it's indicative of a wider problem at the moment. In terms of culture, America is the metropole and the UK is basically a colony. There's this phrase that again we borrow from America, which is, this is a country built a nation of immigrants. And I've read British history. It's not a nation of immigrants.

It's not. Why do we do that? I think the reason why we do that is because we sort of don't want to concede any point to the sort of anti-immigrants, conservative or far right, whatever you want to call them. But I think the best way to do that is to do it on the basis of truth. Yeah. Rather than the basis of any sort of myth-making. If you tell people enough times that they are the victims of racism,

they are the victims of oppression, they are the victims of discrimination, they will inevitably see it everywhere. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kitten. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a journalist and writer whose first book, first book is called This is Not America, which is absolutely true.

This is why you're here, by the way, because I keep saying this and no one listens, right? You're making this point now. That's why you're here. Let's talk about it. But before we do, tell everybody who are you, Tamir Owalari? What's been your journey for life? How are you here? Thank you very much for getting me on this program. I've been a long-term listener and watcher of this show, so it's a great privilege to be invited on. As you said, I'm a writer. I'm also a journalist, I've written for various UK publications such as the New Statesman, the Times, the Sunday Times, the Observer.

Before that, I worked as a tutor in a secondary school. I used to teach English to kids that were struggling. And I also did this during lockdown as well. So I'm familiar with online teaching and the perils of that. before that I was a master's student. So I studied English for undergraduate and I did a master's as well in English. And I thought about going into academia, being a lecturer, professor, and so forth. But I grew slightly disillusioned with academia. I found the kind of orthodoxy that I witnessed in academia very stifling, very conformist. And I also grew disillusioned with the

academic style of writing. I discovered that, you know, I prefer a more journalistic style of writing, a writing that's more clearer, more lucid, more concise. So that's why I decided to do some freelance journalism on the side whilst also being a tutor in a secondary school after academia. I was born in Nigeria and I moved to the UK when I was nine. And I guess that's most of my story. Yeah, absolutely.

And before we talk about the book, I just think it's such an important message for us to get into. You mentioned the heterodoxy, quite the opposite, the orthodoxy in academia. What was it that you felt was stifling or sort of locked into a particular worldview? So this actually connects to why I decided to write the book in the first place. So a big part of the orthodoxy in academia was about social and cultural issues relating to race and identity. So at the very start of the book, I explained why I decided to write the book in the first place, which is at UCL, one of my, one of my, one of my, one of my, one of my, one of my

armaments, there was an open letter sent by the master's students at UCL to the English faculty, accusing the English faculty of racism, because there were not that many black authors and black texts in the syllabus. But in that letter, one thing struck me, which is that these UK-based, mostly UK-based students use the term BIPOC to describe the racism experienced by British, by ethnic minority, British people in the UK.

And for those of you that don't know, BIPOC is an acronym that stands for black, indigenous people of color. Now it would make sense for somebody like Nick Griffin to talk about protecting the indigenous communities of the UK. Nick Griffin, by the way, is a former far-right politician. Yeah, the leader of the British National Party. What I found confusing is why a 22-year-old activist, left-wing activist in London would use a term. like indigenous. Hitler was quite left-wing.

So I was struck and I think it's illustrative, it's symptomatic of a wider problem, which is that when we think and talk about race and racism, we do it through an American perspective. And what you mean is we download that and apply to the British context.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Why is that? Why is that? Why do we do that? Because surely, We have lived the experience. And that means we understand that things are different and the UK is different from America. So why do we regurgitate the narratives about interrogating them in any shape or form?

I think it's indicative of a wider problem. So it's not just about race. Anyone that uses the internet will inevitably encounter American culture. American culture influences the films we watch, the TV shows we watch, the music we listen to. Therefore, it makes sense that it would also influence the way we look at politics as well in the UK. So I think it's not just a race thing. I think it's symptomatic of a wider problem, which is that at the moment, in terms of culture,

America is the metropole and the UK is basically a colony. I mean, it's a good point. And also as well, lockdowns, of course. The killing of George Floyd, that must have had a huge impact on the way we talk about these subjects now. Yeah, exactly. I think lockdown played a key role as well because we were isolated.

And the only way that we could interact with other people was through the internet, was through social media. So we became more dependent upon social media to develop relationships, to try to understand the world, basically. And I think that's why it makes sense why the George Floyd protests accelerated the ways in which when we think about race and racism, we do it through an American perspective. I think Rogan made this point, actually, the other day. He gave us a shout out, and he was talking about how the informational lands. escape is changing and he said trigonometry of in that context. Yes.

But I'm curious, before we talk about how Britain and America are different when it comes to race, which of course they are, I also feel like there's a lot of stuff going on at the moment where you're just going, like we keep being a dishonest about these issues, but also there's lots of other stuff going on. So I give you an example, the BBC has just released a thing, which is called something like been here all along or something. And it's basically trying to present the picture of like Britain from 2,000 years ago being massively populated with black people. And when people pointed out how historically inaccurate this is, there's actually a quote from one of the producers basically saying,

well, we've got to lie to make it work in the modern context or something. And I never understood this. Like, there's this phrase that again we borrow from America, which is, this is a nation of immigrants. I've read British history. It's not a nation of immigrants. It's not. And I'm an immigrant. It doesn't make me feel better that we lie about this.

Why do we do that? I think the reason why we do that is because we sort of don't want to concede any point to the sort of anti-immigrant, conservative or far-right, whatever you want to call them. But I think the best way to do that is to do it on the basis of truth. Rather than the basis of any sort of... myth-making because if we concede the truth to sinister nefarious actors, we are actually doing a disservice to ethnic minority people, people from immigrant community backgrounds. So I think we should definitely base it on the truth rather than trying to feather sort of respect for ethnic minority

to people on the basis of something which a lot of people without any kind of ideological bias will know to be completely dishonest. And I was curious also what you made of the, there was a recent incident, as we said there literally a couple of days ago, where a black woman didn't get a refund in a shop that's owned by a South Asian guy. She basically tried to steal something. He took it off her. She started hitting him.

he fought back, and now these guys in hiding, because he's part of the white supremacist, the South Asian guy is a white supremacist. And you're just going, what are any of you talking about? Yeah, it's completely, yeah, it's ridiculous. But I think that also illustrates why terms like BAME, B-A-M-E, is not really useful, because it assumes that the experiences and the values

of all ethnic minority people in the UK are the same when it's obviously not the case. Asian people can be prejudiced against black people. Black people can be prejudiced against Asian people. And to just assume that any kind of sort of conflict between these groups is a consequence of white supremacy is extremely condescending to these groups as well. Yeah. And it's also, it's just deeply weird. It's deeply weird because you look at these people and you just think to themselves, what are you talking about? It doesn't make sense when you look out where this happened.

It happened in Peckham. And then for those people who've never been to Peckham, there's not a lot of white people there. If you're going to look for white... Don't go, but not for that reason. It's just a shit hole. Yeah, exactly. But you just go... You're not going to find a lot of white supremacy in Peckons.

Well, actually, there are some white people, but it's a certain kind of white people. It's being gentrified. So it's a sort of liberal, youngish, progressive type. It's not the kind of white people you normally associate with white supremacy. Yeah. And this is it. And I think this is really what we're talking about,

where what we're, is the people are living in a fictional world. They're living in a world that they literally go online and they're being told that this world exists. Yes. And then they're living in this world. And you go, but that is not reality in any shape or form. Yes. And no one's denying racism exists.

Of course it doesn't mean. There are racist people, blah, blah, bar. But that is not the experience of living in Peckham. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's one of the things that I try to get across in my rights. is that all too often when we talk about race and discrimination, it's done through a very abstract perspective. It's done with a lot of theory, a lot of buzzwords,

without any reference to the actual, to use a fashionable term, lived experiences of ethnic minority people and also white British people as well. Because their experiences can't simply be reduced to being, victims of racism. And in fact, that kind of perspective to simply say that as a black person, as an Asian person, your experiences of living in the UK can be explained entirely through racism. That's a completely, I think that's a profoundly damaging distortion of their actual experiences, the actual complex experiences.

And I think that also denigrates their humanity as well. to simply consider them as purely victims of racism rather than as complex, fully embodied people. Because there are instances where you go, so take Windrush, for example. Of course, yes. I don't know how much of that is racist, but it's pretty obvious that these people,

these immigrants at the time and British citizens, were horrendously badly treated. Yeah, of course. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about how we can ensure that doesn't happen. Yes, yes. And I think Windrush is an excellent example because Windrush is something which is very much specific to a UK context. You can't really translate the experience of Windvash to, say, America, for example, because you can't really call Black Americans an immigrant community. No. Because the vast majority of Black Americans are descendants of enslaved Africans that were transported to America between the 17th and the 19th.

centuries, in fact, the average black American can trace their ancestry further back than the average white American, because of course, most white Americans are descendants not only from like the sort of English founders of American, but also like successive waves of European immigration from the middle of the 19th century onwards. So you can't really, so you can make the argument that black Americans, are almost like an indigenous community to America, but you can't say the same with black British people because the vast majority of black British people

are immigrants or the children of immigrants, not even from the Caribbean. Because 25 years ago, the vast majority of black British people were black Caribbean people, but over the past 25 years, there's been a massive influx of immigration. from Africa, which means that the majority of black British people, so they are black Africans. In fact, there are twice as many black African people as there are Black Caribbean people.

But this isn't really incorporated into discussions of race and racism enough. No, absolutely. And I was going to ask you about you split your book into two sections, really. You say, this is America, and you talk about what America is. And then most of the book is about this is Britain. So what are some of the big differences? Now, one of them you've just pointed out, which is the majority of black people in this country today

are actually not the descendants of slaves. Yeah, that's true. Whereas in America, it's obviously the other way around. Yeah. What else is different? I think another key difference is that in the UK, we don't have that particular history of institutionalized segregation that America obviously has.

So in the UK, for example, interracial marriage has never been banned. And in the UK, black people and Asian people have never been barred from voting. So that particular historical legacy in America simply doesn't apply in the UK context. I think another key difference is that in the UK, there are many, there is much more internal diversity within the black British population than there is in America, I would argue. So in the UK, you've got black Caribbean people, black West African people, black East African people, and various other. black communities. So even to use a term like black British is to, we need to acknowledge that there is diversity within that term. So in terms of education, for example, the experiences of Black Caribbean people are very different to the experiences of Black African people.

And from what I hear, you know, particularly at school, those two groups of kids may not get on that well. And it's not because of white supremacy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in fact, It's changed now, but when I was growing up, black Africans, recent immigrants in particular, were often looked down upon. There was a term at school when I was growing up called Freshie, to be called Fresh, which means fresh of the boat. Right.

Fresh is cool now, isn't it? It's funny how things too. It is cool now. And I think that's because of things like Afrobeats, which is a kind of popular West African music. But when I was growing up, which wasn't too long ago, to be called Fresh or Freshi was used as an insult, often directed at black African immigrants or recent or like black African like people in general. But I think one of the other key differences is that in terms of something like exclusion, black Caribbean pupils are more than twice as likely. to be excluded from schools as black African people.

Black African people also have better GCSE grades, better A-level grades. And I think acknowledging these differences is very important because if we genuinely care about the social inequalities in our society, we need to recognize these specific differences rather than making generalizations based on race. And I think I should also emphasize that when I say Black Caribbean pupils, I'm specifically referring to Black Caribbean boys. So Black Caribbean girls tend to do much better

in terms of education that Black Caribbean boys. But I should also acknowledge the fact that the ethnic minority group that does least well in education are the Roma traveller gypsy communities. They tend to do least well, and they're often seen as white. So it shows that when we think about inequalities in education, simply looking at it through the lens of race is completely inadequate. Hey Francis, why should you always use ExpressVPN? To stop people finding out you frequent websites like, I love powerful feminists.com.

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It's such a good point. I always remember when we were talking about this with Tony Saul, and in preparation for the interview, I read his report, and the education section I found particularly fascinating. One of the highest achieving subgroups in all of education is West African girls. They are crushing it. Yeah, they are.

And this is what frustrates me, because all we do is talk about the negatives. Why can't we celebrate them? Yeah. You're brilliant. Why can't we go, that's amazing? Or celebrate British Chinese pupils, British Indian pupils. They also do extremely well in terms of education as well.

So this kind of pessimistic narrative, which we've mostly imported from America, is simply inconsistent with reality, basically. And it's also the message that it's sending out to these kids, which is, you're never going to. going to succeed, you're never going to, you're never going to achieve anything, racism is everywhere. Yeah. And then you look at the actual stats and it doesn't bear any relation to the truth. Of course, of course. Yeah, that kind of paralyzing fatalism, exactly. It's not good for the kind of self-confidence that we need to inculcate in whether black or Asian kids. Because

If you tell people enough times that they are the victims of racism, they are the victims of oppression, they are the victims of discrimination, they will inevitably see it everywhere. That kind of self-reinforcing mechanism, they will completely imbibe it. And they would be unable to actually acknowledge the fact that, no, this is not the case. Of course, there's still racism in the UK, but to define the experiences of black or Asian people entirely through the perspective of racism or race is completely inimical to what we should try to imbibing them, which is the truth, basically. And I think that that is one of the key aspects of my writing. I'm concerned with what is actually going on. whether something is actually true or not. Well, that's the most important thing, because that then allows you,

if you're talking about policy or whatever, to make the right decisions. But I was curious at the individual level, do you think that this very simplistic victimhood-driven worldview, do you think that is landing with people? You know, you're in your sort of mid to late 20s, your generation and younger, do you feel that young people,

young people from ethnic minority backgrounds are being persuaded to see themselves in this way? are being persuaded to think that, you know, life here is terrible. Sure. Do you think they are? I think it's a mixed back. So I think amongst some young ethnic minority people, they do definitely imbibe that kind of message. And the ones that do sort of imbibe that kind of message

are the ones that are often invited onto TV shows and invited on to write newspaper columns and magazine articles. the ones that don't really imbibe that kind of message, just get on with their lives, basically. They're not really political in that sense. They just get on with their lives and just... Go and get a banking job. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I think it's great that you're here because I do think it's really important that people who don't imbibibed that narrative don't just go and get a job. You know what I mean? Because they need to speak. Yeah, yeah, of course. And it's good to have you speaking about it.

But I'm curious, you mentioned the disparities between different groups. Sure. And this is the question that when it comes down to this issue, no one really wants to dig into, honestly. Yeah. Why do different groups perform differently? If, let's say, West African girls are doing the best in education, we can conclude from that that whatever role places, racism plays in people's outcomes,

it's not inhibiting them. Yeah. As much as it's inhibiting someone else. So why would that be for it? Why would Caribbean boys be getting excluded at a rate that's crazy compared to everybody else? And no one wants to talk about things like culture and all sorts of family structure. And family structure. And class as well.

And class. Yeah. So tell us about that. What are the differences? Yeah, yeah. So it's all of those things. It's family structure. It's culture.

It's class. So many West African. immigrant communities, most of them came, as I said earlier, over the past 25, 30 years. And they've arrived from independent African countries. So with the Windlass generation, a lot of them arrived from Caribbean colonies. So they were basically going to the motherland, essentially. Whereas with recent African immigrant communities, they've arrived from independent African countries. And many of them were already university educated in Africa. So when they've, when they've arrived in the UK, there is that particular expectation that they want their kids to be

university, at least university educated as well. So there is that attitude of emphasizing the importance of education. Education is absolutely critical to the way that many of these West African families conceive of themselves. Things like education, things like religion, things like a strong family network, all of them are absolutely critical. And I think that's part of the reason why, for example,

many West African families that live in Southeast, London, are absolutely desperate to get their kids to be sent to the grammar schools in Kent. Because if you go to any grammar school in Kent, one of the striking things is the number of West African kids in these grammar schools. And I think that's because of that particular culture of educational aspiration. Yeah, look, and we all know this. But why is it that we can't talk about it. Why can't we have a simple, frank and honest conversation? Because race might play a factor, but it's certainly not all of the equation. Yeah, because I think when anyone makes this point, people would counter by saying, well, you're sort of victim blaming. You're saying, oh, this is

the fault of black Caribbean people. This is the fault of black Caribbean culture. And people also say, oh, you're denying the existence of racism. When, in fact, what I'm saying and what many people are saying is that of course racism might be a factor, and of course racism still exists in the UK. What we're arguing is that we should not look at racism as the only factor. We should consider other things because it simply doesn't make sense to think that race is the only thing that shapes things like educational outcomes. Because if it did, we would not be able to explain differences between various black groups. Look, Tom, he is a particularly unpleasant question.

But it needs to be asked. If your kid gets expelled, isn't it your fault? What, you mean the fault of the parents? You thought of the parents? No, no, your fault. All the children in the country that get expelled, isn't that because you didn't tutor them properly? Yeah.

But as someone who taught for many years, you know, it takes a lot for a kid to get expelled. Increasingly so. Yeah. And something has gone wrong. Yeah. And somebody needs to take the blame for it. Yeah, yeah.

Individual agency does matter. But I think that we should also look at wider problems, wider social. So if you've, say you're a young kid and you grew up without any sort of father figure and you grew up in a place where there is mass poverty in a place where the only role models in your society are basically criminals or like gang people that are involved in gang communities. If you go up within that particular environment, it would take a lot of individual willpower to be studious, to be focused on trying to better yourselves.

So I think we should not underestimate the extent to which peer pressure plays a role. because peer pressure is one of the most powerful social forces, and it doesn't just apply to this situation and applies to many other situations. So even though I do acknowledge that individual agency is important, I think we should also consider other wider social factors as well. Well, absolutely. I mean, environment is so important.

I remember one of our previous studios was in East London, and it was like an oasis. It was a nice building. in the middle of a big council estate, like a project in America, the projects. And I remember Francis and I, this was during COVID, we'd like go out for a walk. And just the environment itself was so depressing.

I was like, if I lived here, I would be a different person. You know what I mean? So environment makes a big difference. And your point about father figures and all of that is really true as well, I think. Absolutely, man. Environment is huge. It is really good.

Yeah, and I think that that is something that we need to acknowledge, which is that the environment of black people, ethnic minority people in general are not all the same. And it's a bit weird to sort of consider them to be the same because the environment of white people isn't the same as well. So why should we assume that the environment of ethnic minority people would be the same? Isn't it a bit racist? to go, you're black, therefore you were going to behave exactly like this,

have these opinions, and probably be expelled from school. I'm always reluctant to describe something as racist, but it is definitely patronising, and it is definitely counterproductive, especially if you consider yourself to be an avowed anti-racist to make generalisations based on race in that way. I think it shows an extreme lack of curiosity on your part to not wonder the differences, whether that be cultural, socioeconomic, differences in terms of religion, for example,

between these various racial or ethnic groups. Sorry. Go for it. Yeah, I was just going to say you alluded to this earlier about which black voices. This is a very popular phrase now. Of course, yes. as if they're not people, they just like the voice, which black voices get promoted in the media.

And as you probably know, I've had my classes with some of these people on TV and stuff. And it always seems to be the crazier. The more strident ones. The more strident is perhaps a kind of way to describe it. The people who are really very, very extreme about what they believe. And I just wonder whether they're representative of the average black person, because that's not been my experience.

And do you know what? The media brainwashing is so powerful. We get so many black people coming up to us saying how much they enjoy the show. And obviously this has been part of the message of the show. You know, being a victim is not good for you and all of that. And even I, knowing that, every now and again, I'm a little bit surprised.

I'm like, oh, wow, a black person likes us. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because this thing is so powerful in our minds. Exactly. Yeah. And I just, I wonder if you agree with me that I, well, or forget about agree with me, I wonder how representative you think the media conversation is to what ordinary black and brown

and whatever people are sort of talking around the dinner table. It's not representative at all, would be my answer to that. Yeah. Because I think the actual experiences of black people, are so diverse that to even use a term like black voice or the black community does a massive disservice to those different values, those different points of views, those different experiences. So I think, and the kinds of things as well that black people often discuss the kind of values that black people often espouse are often counter

to the kind of values that many of these self-appointed black pundits or intellectuals or whatever you want to call them, what they express. Because I think one of the things about many black people in the UK, I'm thinking in particular of many black African communities, is the extent to which religion plays a pivotal role in how they see themselves. And the kind of cultural or social conservatism, which is implied by that, is not something that we often discuss. Well, they don't have pride flags ever. Yeah.

It's not something that is often discussed because that would lead to many awkward conversations. And in fact, in fact, I think one thing I want to emphasize is that London is the most religiously. place in the UK. And London is the most... Yeah, and by the way, acceptance of LGBT. It's the most conservative. Yes. It's the most conservative in that respect.

Yeah. And it's because of ethnic minorities. Well, religious. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it's not just like the black or even or Asian Muslim. It's also like Eastern European immigrants as well. We often tend to be quite Catholic as well in terms of the religious background.

So that's why there is that kind of tension, which is that in the most multicultural parts of the country, you also get the most religious sensibilities which are expressed. And yet at the same time, the white middle-class liberal expects all of these people to vote Labor and to have deeply progressive views. But they do, though. This is the question I was going to ask you. Why do big cities then, and it's not just London, obviously, but why do all the big cities?

And you see it here and in America, one of the uniting factors is they're always consistently left wing. Yeah. Which is interesting, given what you're saying. How do you explain that? Yeah, I think it's just a kind of political tribalism, essentially, rather than any sort of genuine consideration of the politics. and the values that are embodied by any particular party. So I think with voting preferences, it's often based on vibes.

It's often based on any sort of pre-intellectual affiliation rather than any genuine consideration of any sort of, of what the parties actually stand for. Do you think part of it is also as well that, you know, if you all come from an ethnic minority, that automatically means that you are in the minority. Yeah, yeah. And therefore, you are going to,

you do not want to stand out as much because you don't want to be alienated from your tribe, whatever your tribe may be, by being conservative or saying, hey guys, I think this commentator is actually talking nonsense. I think that is a part of it. But I also think there's another, striking dimension to discussions about diversity and politics. So one of the interesting things

about the UK is that in the Conservative Party, there are many prominent conservative politicians that come from an Asian background, including our current Prime Minister, Mr. Rishi Sunak. But I think one dimension to this hasn't been spoken enough about, which is that many of these prominent Asian conservative politicians didn't arrive directly from Asia, they came through the root of East Africa. And I think it makes sense why the families espouse conservative points of views

because if you come from, if your family comes from an East African country where they were basically kicked out by the government. They were like the Jews of Istanbul. Yeah, they were basically kicked out because they were considered parasites. If you come from that particular background, it would make sense why you would not trust the government

to solve all the issues in society. It would make sense why you wouldn't trust the state. It would make sense why you would emphasize the importance of family, the importance of individuals striving, individual aspiration if you come from that particular background. And I think it does make sense why people like Rishi Stunak and the other prominent conservative Asian politicians

are conservative because of that particular background. And I think it also makes sense why somebody like Kemi Badenuk who's also a very prominent conservative politician from a West African background. because even though she was born in the UK, she actually grew up in Nigeria. And when she was growing up in Nigeria, Nigeria was a military dictatorship. So it would make sense why she's got many positive views about the UK. Hey, Francis, do you dream of that clean-shaven look but hate going through the hassle of a wet shave every day?

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And the thing that I have always found very troubling about the way ethnic minority people, in particular, a certain subsection of ethnic minority people discuss these figures, is that they are a traitor to their race. And that, to me, just seems... It's racist. Yes.

Oh, that is racist. I wouldn't use racist enough, but in there. That is racist. That is definitely racist. And it's something that some people have leveled against me as well. So like anyone that deviates from that particular orthodoxy is viewed as a traitor and is demonized in that way just because they disagree with the view that racism doesn't explain everything in society.

It's completely absurd. Well, I'll see you and I'll raise you a controversial issue because it's something I talked about in my book, but I'd be curious to get your take on it, which is, slavery. And I find the way that people in Britain talk about slavery is just like I'm just like what? How are we talking about it in this way?

Because people everywhere throughout history had slaves and practiced slavery. Now, admittedly the transatlantic slave trade, because the Brits were the most technologically sophisticated nation in the world, they could transport slaves across oceans, etc. But broadly

speaking, all big empires always had slaves and used them. Yeah, yeah. And the British were the first people, one of the very first big empires, I think the first empire, to end slavery and committed a lot of blood and treasure and so on to doing it. But we have this unique obsession with it as some kind of like uniquely evil thing that people in this country did. Or colonialism more generally. Right. And you're going, well, and it's interesting because I went to the Museum of Slavery in Liverpool. Great museum, except they don't tell you who captured the slaves. Maybe we should look into that as well. Do you know what I mean? What do you make of the way

that we talk about that issue? Yeah, I find discussions around slavery and colonialism extremely reductive because, as you rightly say, Constantine, slavery is a part of every historical civilization and society. It makes sense why we would try to understand various aspects of slavery. Absolutely. And try to understand whether those legacies still affect contemporary society, but to focus almost exclusively on slavery, where for instance, there are twice as many Asian people in the UK as there are black people. And it's not clear to me how the transatlantic slave trade, for example, explains their own historical experiences. And in the case of colonialism, of course, there are many terrible things that the British did

under the auspices of colonialism. But to simply view colonialism as just a succession of evil acts, to sort of view colonialism through the perspective of domination, I think is also historic, prevent you. Really, that's interesting, because I've never taken an argument that far. Okay. But I guess it sounds like what you're saying is colonialism also had benefits. Not benefits, but it was a complex thing. So, for example, an aspect of colonialism, which isn't really acknowledged enough as the aspects of the missionaries.

So the reason why, for example, many West African leaders became anti-colonial in the first place was because many of them were educated in schools by missionaries. So in a paradoxical sense, there are certain aspects of colonialism that sort of field the seeds that ended up undermining colonialism in the first place. And these missionary schools were, of course, Christian and many of the values that these post-colonial leaders imbibed in these schools, values such as opposition to injustice of any kind.

They came from these missionary teachers. So in a sense, colonialism was paradoxical in that sense. I'm talking about British colonialism because of that, which is not to underplay or to underestimate the many evils perpetrated by colonising powers, or British colonising powers in particular. It's just to say that there are nuances and there are complexities within that as well. So you're saying we're the good God, basically. But you know, there was one, I was watching this program.

It's actually a really good program, one of the few good programs the BBC does, called Who Do You Think You Are? Yes. And there was this beautifully, unintentionally hilarious moment where they got one of these celebrities. I can't remember who it was, Black Lady, and they were talking about her ancestor, who was a slave.

And obviously, she was very upset by this, understandably so. And then she went, well, this slave won her, won his freedom. She was like, oh, marvelous, that's so good. And then they went, He went on to own slaves. And she was absolutely mortified. And it was, to me, it was this, it was funny in a way because it was like, it's not simple.

Yeah. And this idea that we're presented with and this, how can I put it? Reductive point. Reductive point, yeah. Reductive view of history. Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's nonsensical.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that kind of view of history. as well also explains why there is this view that there is some sort of universal black identity that black people around the world all share the same values and the same beliefs and the same outlook and this is completely wrong from my own particular experience as well so as I said at the very start I was born in Nigeria and in Nigeria over 99% of the population is black You're saying you don't have diversity.

Have they not been told diversity is their strength? Not racial diversity, other types of diversity. So of course, race is not at the forefront of the minds of the ordinary Nigerian. And race is not one of the factors that divide society. Other factors such as ethnic tribal group, religion, region or geography, those are the things that shape the visions within Nigerian society. And this became evident to me when last year my brother was getting married and my brother lives in America and he was getting married to an African American woman.

So a woman whose ancestors were enslaved Africans. And she brought along a lot of her family members and friends too, Nigeria. And I assume that many of these black Americans expected a kind of homecoming, a kind of return of the prodigal son or daughter or whatever. But the striking thing is that what struck many of these Nigerians was not the fact that these black Americans were black. It was the fact that these black Americans were Americans. So the Americanness of them was the most striking thing to the Nigerians, which I think just goes to illustrate that race is not at the forefront of the minds of many African people themselves.

Other things might shape the way that they look at black Americans, black British people, and black people from across the rest of the world. So what you're saying is, and it's very controversial, is that people's skin color doesn't determine how they act and behave and think. I mean, that's incredible, man. It's such a radical idea. Radical idea. Listen, it's a great book and it's great chatting to you as we start to move towards

the end of the interview. What would be your message to young people growing up in this country who have been, you know, they've had this stuff shoved at them from every social media and media and TV and whatever? How should people think about, you know, being from a minority background in this country? you know, oh, look, everyone's got a different experience. Yeah, of course. What are some of the important things do you think that people should take away when they're being presented with, as you talk about in the book,

a very Americanized, downloaded from Hollywood sort of narrative? Yeah. What's a helpful way to think about, you know, race relations in this country and so on? By going to their neighbors, by speaking to their friends, by observing what's going on in their local community, their cities, their towns, the wider country, simply by looking at each individual on their own terms rather than through the perspective of their racial background,

whatever that might be, or through any kind of assumption based on race or ethnicity. It's by acknowledging that each person is both rooted in their own particular context, their own particular environments, but also at the same time, each person is endowed with a certain kind of indivisible moral dignity, a certain kind of universal moral dignity, and they should be looked at through that perspective as well, rather than any kind of abstract ideas about what it means to be black.

He's really radical. You're saying you should treat people on the content of their characters. Yeah, it's not the colour of their skin. Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, it is. It's outdated and frankly, it's just... Who said that? Yeah, some weird.

Some kind of race... Some racetritous. Race rate. There will be somebody who thinks Martin Luther King Jr. is a race trader. No, absolutely. They probably are. They probably are. Yeah, you know.

But, look, look, look. It's been a wonderful. It's been great. The book is called This Is Not America. Make sure to check it out. And the final question is... Not the final question, because we're going to go to locals. As we always do.

But before we go to locals. What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? Could it be on anything? Anything at all? Anything at all? Anything. Anything at all. Anything.

I think one issue is, and it's something I've been recently thinking about, is the... I think we should be talking more about the negative impact of pornography on young men. So one strike in the thing. I think I've noticed is that many of my young male friends are being shown adverts, sort of advertised in Viagra. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is something that, because erectile dysfunction, which is something we're associated

with older men, there's been a recent massive spike amongst younger men. pun intended and definitely and I think that I don't know if pornography is definitely the factor that's inspiring

influencing that but I think you might well be and I think this is of course a very awkward conversation to have because it speaks to something that's very intimate but I think it's I think for in the future I think the

negative, deleterious effects of online pornography is something that will be a major social and policy question. Very interesting. Well, appreciate you coming on the show. Join us over on locals where we continue the conversation with your questions and we'll probably have a few more of our own. See you there. Is it possible to discuss race without also discussing class?