TRIGGERnometry - Why I Exposed Anti-Trump Bias At The BBC

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

David Chaudoir is the BBC producer linked to the controversy over the doctored clip of Donald Trump’s January 6 speech, whose role became central after the whistleblower allegations about editorial manipulation and bias. | We use Ground News to escape the echo chamber and stay fully informed. Go to https://ground.news/triggernometry to save 40% on the Ground News unlimited access Vantage plan. Triggernometry is proudly independent. Thanks to the sponsors below for making that possible: - Protect your wealth with The Pure Gold Company. Get your free investor guide at https://pure-gold.co/trigger - Take Hillsdale College’s online courses for free at https://hillsdale.edu/trigger Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Substack! https://triggernometry.substack.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Shop Merch here - https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. 00:00 - Introduction 03:00 - The Telegraph Exposing The BBC Panorama Coverage Of Donald Trump's 2021 Speech 09:42 - How Does The BBC Broadcasting A Doctored Clip Even Happen? 14:40 - Emily Maitlis And How Newsnight Started Telling Us How To Think 20:09 - Joe Biden And Being Told To Not Use A Particular Picture In My Graphic Design 24:06 - Is This Down To A Lack Of Leadership At The BBC? 28:58 - The BBC Is Clearly Left Leaning 36:58 - Is The Problem With The BBC That They Hire So Many People Out Of University? 41:25 - Diversity Of Background 50:21 - How Does The BBC Get Back To Being Balanced And Objective? 01:00:35 - The Politicisation Of Everything 01:01:51 - What's The One Thing We're Not Talking About That We Should Be? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I was aghast. I was thinking, how can they think that they get away with it? You're manipulating time to create a lie. And how can you do that twice? Which it is election interference. When the producer said, you know, how did that happen? And there was no response. I remember you saying about your cousins from Venezuela, whispering. Yeah.

That's what we used to do at the BBC. And I'm seeing a completely different world than you. you are and you're in this bubble. And so it's true because another BBC correspondent said it's true. It must be true. There were conversations in the newsroom that made me think, hang on a minute, you know, I thought we were objective here. I'm not sure you can ever get back that trust if you tell lies. Trigonometry is proudly independent and sponsors like Hillsdale College make that possible. Access their free library of world-class educational courses at hillsdale.edu slash trigger.

Lowe's has the brand's pros trust to get the job done. You can now shop new catalyst fencing solutions and save big when you do. 10% off when you buy in bulk. Plus, save $180 on a DeWalk 12-inch dual bevel sliding compound mitersaw. Now just $449. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Vela through 5-6, wall supplies last. Selection varies by location.

The Fed's out of options. rate cuts, money printing, balance sheet reversals. They call it policy, but it's really panic. This is in-game economics where hope replaces discipline and the illusion of control finally breaks. They're not cutting rates because things are strong. They're cutting because the system is cracking. Inflation's eating savings. The labor market's stalling. Confidence in the dollar is fading fast. For decades, the Fed built a house of paper. Now they're striking the match that could burn it all down, leaving you to pay the price. When's the last time you actually held the wealth you've spent your life working for? My friends at Noble Gold Investments have been helping Americans move from paper wealth into real tangible assets.

Numbers on a screen can disappear, but physical gold and silver, they've outlasted every crisis in history. Visit NobleGoldinvestments.com and get your free wealth protection kit today. That's noblegoldinvestments.com for your free wealth protection kit. Discover how simple it is to protect your future. Past performance may not be indicative of future results investing in precious metals, including gold involved risks. Consult with a tax attorney or financial professional before making an investment decision. David, welcome to Trigonometry. Hello.

Thanks for coming on. In the time that we were away in the US, a massive story broke here in the UK about BBC biases. This was covered in the Telegraph extensively. And one of the things that a flagship BBC program did is effectively doctored a speech by President Trump around January 6th, which misrepresented very, very badly what he actually said on that day.

You were the whistleblower who spoke to the Telegraph about this issue. Thanks for coming on. Before we get into that, tell us a little bit about your background. How did you get into the BBC? How long were you there? And what did you do there? Okay, so the BBC part of my life was actually quite short. I've been a graphic designer for 35 years. I've worked to television companies. I was head of design at Fox and National Geographic. I've been a freelancer for probably 25 years, and I've worked at various broadcasters like ITV and Channel 4. And I've also done a lot within advertising agencies as well.

And so lockdown happened. And then coming out of lockdown, I got a freelance job as a graphic designer in news. and specifically Newsnight. And I worked at Newsnight for between 2022 and 2024, and I absolutely loved it. It was fast-paced. But unfortunately, I have health issues and I had my fourth heart attack,

so that kind of paid to working there any longer. Whilst I was there, I saw this thing. Now, the Daily Telegraph broke, Shall I talk about this? Of course. So the Daily Telegraph broke the panorama story, and the panorama story came from a memo, which somebody within the BBC said that there is bias within the BBC, specifically cited this panorama edit, where it has the Trump saying,

we're going to get to the Capitol Hill, and then it spliced for 54 minutes later, And we're going to fight like hell. We're going to walk down to the capital, and I'll be there with you, and we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we're going to walk down, and I'll be there with you. We're going to walk down.

We're going to walk down anyone you want. but I think right here we're going to walk down to the Capitol, and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them. But I said, something's wrong here, something's really wrong, can't have happened, and we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavors have not yet begun.

As soon as I saw that, I thought, I've seen that before. I know I've seen that before. So I contacted the Daily Telegraph and said, look, I've seen this clip before. This isn't the first time they've used this clip. And it wasn't politically motivated as it's been discussed. You know, there's a plot to take down the BBC, and it's a round. white wing plot. Yes, the telegraph did break it. And so I got in touch with them and I said, look, I was there, I was doing graphics at night, not on that story. And so it came up.

The Daily Telegraph then looked for it and I couldn't remember when it was. I couldn't remember that it was late in my time at BBC around about 2020. but actually turned out to be two years earlier in 2022. And the reason I remembered it was as they played that clip, and it was a variation on that clip, Trump said a little bit more like, we're going to go up to the Capitol Hill and we're going to cheer on some of your senators or congressmen,

and we're not going to cheer so much for some of them, and then we're going to fight like hell. So it's pretty much the same thing that some of the same thing thing that somebody had edited out, you know, pretty much an hour and put these two things together. Some of the events of that day are uncontested. As Congress met to formalize Biden's election victory, President Trump addressed a large rally of his supporters in central Washington, D.C. We're going to walk down anyone you want, but I think right here we're going to walk down to the capital and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen.

men and women and we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. The reason why it's stuck in my memories so clearly was on the actual show that night, there was a member of Trump's team who had actually resigned. He wasn't in the team and he called Mitch McConnell. And he said, hang on a minute, you've spliced those two things together and called out that edit and saying, look, this is what we're dealing with, with American media or the mainstream media, whatever he said, is this false depiction of Trump. And the presenter, who I couldn't remember for the life of me who was on that evening, and it turned out to it was Kirsty Warp, didn't mention anything, didn't apologize, didn't say anything. So it was

mentioned by this guy. A bunch of different questions there. Your video, and I know, I'm not suggesting you are. I'm not suggesting you are. But what I'm saying is that you- Your video actually sliced, spliced together the presentation. He said, we're going to go down and we're going to cheer on our senators and our House members. And then it actually goes on to say in some of them we might not be able to. And that line about it we fight and fight like hell is actually later in the speech,

and yet your video makes it look like those two things came together. That's the type of messaging here that so many people in my country find frustrating is that it's hard to actually get the facts. The young one for BuzzFeed is absolutely right. It was a violent attack. Yet there were people, and there's video, of people walking peacefully through the Capitol buildings. If we're going to have a debate about what this was

and prevent it from happening again, I think part of that is to make sure that we are straightforward and our presentation will actually happen. And the next morning, I was a lead designer, which means, or sometimes as a freelancer, I was a lead designer, and that means that you go to editorial meetings. And an editorial meeting is not the VT editors,

it's the editorship, you know, the curation of the show. And so they brought this up, somebody, a producer and I tried to get in contact with somebody to find out because I couldn't remember who it was. One producer said, hang on a minute, how did that clip go out? You know, why did that clip go out? And the editor at the time, or a senior member of star,

said, oh well, it's God now. It happened. And I just thought that was extraordinary that you could, you know, get away with making such a falsehood out of such a long, because Trump rambles. You know, we all know this. You could have been talking about his soup. And then they put these two things together. And a friend of mine who was trained by the BBC, said this is rule number one. You know, when you're trained at the BBC, you know, you don't falsify footage. You don't clip footage to give a completely different meaning.

So how did it happen? If that is the training that people at the BBC are given, how did that? Because that is an extraordinary thing for a flagship program to broadcast, effectively a doctored clip. I mean, that's what it was. It was doctored. For that to happen, isn't a flagship program.

is an extraordinary thing at an institution that, let's be honest, you know, there's a lot of critics of the BBC, but historically speaking, it is the template and the model of objective journalism. How does it happen? Right. Okay. So as I said, a friend of mine is, she doesn't work there anymore, but she was trained by the BBC to be an editor. I cannot figure that out. I cannot figure how you can effectively make a lie. You're manipulating time to create a lie. And how can you do that twice if you are objective and you are there, you know, you're holding yourself up as the arbiters of truth to then put that out that, you know, and to do it twice. But I think that there's a,

I wondered technically whether somebody who worked on Newsnight, I don't want to cast aspersions, an editor who worked on Newsnight, did the same thing and worked on Panorama, because editors move around. There's a lot of freelance staff because the Panorama was made by October films. And I've worked for the BBC as a freelancer and worked on films that are produced outside of the BBC.

so I've met other editors and people move around. So I don't know whether the editor saw that clip or it was the same editor and thought I'm going to use that again. But it was fishy. And at the time I was watching that in, because we'd have a live feed from the studio in the office where we produced the graphics. And I was aghast.

I was thinking, how can they think that they get away with it and then Kirsty's saying nothing and then the reaction the next day in the editorial meeting when somebody when the producer said you know how did that happen and there was no response i sort of thought oh was there not a discussion about correcting the record issuing an apology with drawing the program no and it went and it went out on to um It went on to IPlayer as normal. There are a couple of times when programs didn't go on to I player, but those were due to fuck ups.

But that, I mean, the word you just used, the term you just used, fuck up, I mean, that is a very generous way of describing what happened here because I don't know if you, you know, people, everybody will remember this, but this is, of course, a very, very heated moment in world history. Yes. in American history, you have a major media organization here in the UK misrepresenting what's happening in that way at a time when frankly, I don't, again, people might have sort of time has eroded our sense of this, but the big term and discussion at the time was election interference. Yes.

And I don't know how you would describe something of this magnitude as not being an attempt, perhaps accidental, but nonetheless at election interference. interference, interference in the political process through deceit. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there is election interference. Now obviously, now Trump's taken at nuclear and said he's going to sue the BBC for a billion. I think that's just the way he plays. He plays big and threatens people and then anyway.

But I think the thing, on a sort of legal issue, I think that it's going to be difficult for him to prove that it's a election interference. It is election interference. That program, there are Americans who live in this country who have American nationality and they are allowed to vote. So anybody who saw that could say, well, that's, you know, that swung it for me. I knew the guy was a Nazi. And then you say you could legally, possibly say there's election interference, but then again, the the amount of people, the radar figures of how many people are watching Newsnight is something like 100,000. It's tiny. It's really, it's gone down from a million at its height with Paxo down to, you know, nothing. It's a program that's kind of lost its relevance, which is slightly sad.

I find it tragic, I'll be honest with you. And I remember I used to be an avid watcher of Newsnight. And I remember one particular episode where Emily Maitlis did a monologue to camera, which is what News Night invariably did. But it was very interesting because she wasn't relaying the facts. She was telling us how to think. And I remember at that point thinking to myself, I'm done. Yes. And I think that's a very big mistake that News Night made, is that it was telling you how to think. Well, I think that Emily Maitlissless is a specific case in point.

because she's now got a podcast with Lewis Goodhall. And it was well known. Now, I'm not saying that everybody's, well, he's the lefty, but it was very clear to me that Lewis Goodhall was the same kind of person. And I think Maitliss left quite soon after that, didn't she? That she made it very clear which side of the fence she sat on. But I think that there were hints that other people and other people had beliefs around that they were that way aligned. Now, that's not because I'm some kind of clairvoyant and can't read people's minds, but certain conversations that I heard around that time.

And I can't say who they were, but there were conversations in the newsroom that made me think, hang on a minute. I thought we were objective here. And what were those conversations? Okay, so a correspondent, I remember walking around, as they were cogitating the script, was sort of walking around banging his fist, saying, Brexit, Brexit. And he turned to a producer and said, how can we work Brexit into the story? And the guy who he had sort of landed up next to said, I'm not. I'm not sure Brexit is anything to do with this story.

And I was thinking, this guy is shaping opinion and you are trying to work something in that isn't. Okay, so there's another one. So there's a senior correspondent talking about, and it was, so you get in early at the BBC, you get in at lunchtime, the stories don't really sort of solidify until around about 4 p.m. You know what's kind of on the cards, but, you know, scripts aren't coming through. And I heard overheard X talking to Y saying, oh, you know, the whole Trump thing, it's all to do with Q and on. And I'm thinking, what, you know, because I had heard these rumors about Q&O and had thought that it was some sort of 4chan nonsense or some kind of meme or like Kekistan or something like that.

and just thought it was sort of lunacy. And I later on sort of leant over the desk and said, sorry, what was that with Trump and Q&N? Where did you get that? And they said, oh, it was, I heard a podcast, which was a BBC podcast about it. And that was it. And that was the truth.

The fact that somebody at the BBC had heard somebody else at the BBC explaining Trump's the Capitol Hill, whatever they called it, what did they call it, the insurrection or something, as, you know, the reasons for it were Q&On, etc., etc. And I thought, gosh, you really are in a tiny ecosystem. I'm just a lowly graphic designer. I'm looking at sources of YouTube and Twitter and stuff like that. And I'm seeing a completely different world than you are,

and you're in this bubble. And so it's true, because another BBC correspondent said it's true. It must be true. The news doesn't just tell you what's happening. It so often tells you what to think is happening. And these days, the biggest red flag isn't what's said. It's what gets left out. That's why I use ground news.

It's the only site and app that compares coverage from across the political spectrum and highlights which stories are being a good. ignored entirely. See for yourself at ground.news slash trigonometry. Their blind spot feed is one of my favorite features. It surfaces around 20 stories a day that are being overlooked by either the left or the right. It's a simple but powerful way to track media bias in real time. Like this, NIH scientists recently published a declaration criticizing Trump's cuts to public health research. That's a major move, and yet only 2% of the coverage came from right-leaning outlets. A new study found, the 2024 saw the most armed conflicts globally since 1946, a staggering statistics.

What you would have missed it if you'd only read left-wing news sources. Ground News gives you the full picture, headlines, ownership, bias ratings and context, so you can actually understand what's going on, not just react to what you're told. Head to ground. .news slash trigonometry for 40% off their unlimited advantage plan, the same one we use, and start thinking for yourself. everything happens for a reason. But I suspect everything happens for a recesses. Like this commercial break, did you need 15 seconds away from music?

Or 15 seconds to eat or Reese's? Perhaps it's true. Everything happens for a recesses. Would you like me to tell you about another incident? Okay. So this is actually specifically to do with the graphic that I did. I did a graphic of Joe Biden. Now, I thought it was very, very clear.

at the time that he was in cognitive decline. And so he's doing the, what you call it, you know, it's gearing up for the election. This is before he got booted out, you know, before there was a coup within the Democratic Party. And so I picked a, it was a, I think it was a three-person graphic, no, I think it was just a one-person graphic with him in it. And I think it was,

I think it might have been a rally or something like that. It was something to do the upcoming election. So I had a picture of Biden, and he was sort of like this. And he looked pensive. He had his finger on his mouth. But I wasn't going to have him sort of, you know, strident. I thought, that's a pretty accurate picture of the man now. And I was asked to change it for a more presidential looking.

Now, I can't, again, I wouldn't like to get on the stand. and say that's what I was told, find a more presidential picture. But I was told, don't use that picture and find another one, you know, that's less where he's looking down. And so I thought, hang on a minute, you know, I've just picked something which I think is, because the graphic designers were allowed to go on get in, pick up the pictures that you wanted. And I thought, what's the reason for them, you know, not accepting this graphic with that picture of Biden?

Is it because he looks like an old man in decline? So, and then there was at the time in the ether. Oh, by the way, that graphic, I did manage to smuggle in. I found a photograph that said, let's go Brandon. So that went out with let's go Brandon. But nobody pulled me up. I don't know whether they knew what that. anyway it was when they were saying fuck Joe Biden yeah yeah so I put that on

the graphic and that that's not because I'm sort of right wing it's because I think I was a slightly anarching side to me anyway yeah and then there was one other incident which happened at the BBC oh okay so there's another weird story for you and I don't know whether you're going to be able to use this but I overheard a producer talking about his son at school. And he said, and he was talking about, we were talking, they, some producers were talking about illegal immigration. And they were talking about a man who was at his son's school, who was obviously not his son's age, but was in the same year group. And the children had seen him driving past.

He wasn't at school one day and seen him driving past in a taxi. He was the taxi driver. And the producers kind of joking, saying, oh, well, I remember saying or thinking. So there's a guy who's an Afghan refugee at your son's school who is clearly not the age that he's saying. and he's driving a taxi and the children at your son's school all recognize this. Isn't that a story in itself? You know, the fact, but it was just in hearsay. It was just in conversation.

And I kept thinking, that's the story. But as I said before, I'm just a graphic designer. No, completely. Do you know what I think when you tell these stories? I think that there is a complete lack of leadership at the BBC. because really when these people are putting forward these stories or they're molding the stories to be a certain way with a certain bias, look, that's fine if it's Fox News.

It's fine if it's MSNBC. This is the BBC. This is a publicly funded institution. And in its charter, it's meant to be nonpartisan. Yes. Absolutely. And I think that what's interesting is you can find as many people on the left who say, oh, the BBC's right way.

And you can find as many people on the right who say it's left wing. But in the instances that I saw, I thought they're absolutely definitely on that. And again, is it because I'm sort of more centrist and to the right? Am I seeing it, but they're not? And I don't know whether it's lack of leadership. I think it's kind of like group think. that I remember being in an editorial meeting and there was a discussion about,

they go through topics, oh, today is London Fashion Week. Shall we do a story on that? Oh, you know, there are sort of events in the diary that they can pick on. And there was National Women's Authors Day. And so there's this producer.

And he said, well, why don't we do the best men's author. And this woman produced, it's a meltdown. He was just like a very contrary person. I thought, but you need people like this. Of course. You need somebody to throw hand grenades in and mix things up. And I just remember thinking the reason, and the figures about Newsnight were the fact that it was a dying program. That's what I thought anyway. And then they ran out of money and they, you know, got rid of all the correspondence and now it's kind of like a talk show. But I thought, why don't they get people like you, people like Russell Brand in and liven up and get there. Because you guys, if you were to be on news sign, I

know you guys do this, you strip it out of the, you know, you clip it and you put it on, you get more people watching their program, more people watching your program. You were doing the kind of publicity that they can't get. And I thought at one stage, and I've mentioned this to you, that I said, why don't you get Constantine kissing in? And one of the, who I spoke to said, oh no, we're not having him in. You know, I've done a lot of stuff on the BBC. So I don't think it's a universal thing. But I definitely think there'd be some reluctance. And, you know, it was actually Rod Little who said to me once, she said, oh, you are now on the BBC's dial a cunt list, which is, you know, you get five people, one of them has a moderately centrist

opinion. But, you know, we're joking around. I think it's important to also be fair here. For example, you know, your point about the Joe Biden graphic. Yes. I can totally see from an editorial perspective how you would also be accused of bias if you did present. Joe Biden in an overtly kind of decline-focused way, right? Absolutely. And there's a story around that as well that talking about the left-right, you know, bias and anybody can see it from any angle, there was a bit of a who-ha about Corbyn, Jeremy Corbyn. A graphic went out with Corbyn wearing a hat. He used to walk round with that sort of Beatles hat, you know.

And the BBC were accused of making the hat bigger. And there was a whole inquiry because Corbyn and get on, you know, the BBC is biased, they're biased against me. And it was a news night thing, graphic, and they had to prove, you know, they had to do a side by side, they had to prove to the Board of Governors that they hadn't manipulated this image. So they are, and as I said, I don't know why somebody rejected my graphic. Maybe it's because he had his hand on his mouth.

Maybe they wanted, you know, the three, I think it was a three-header, I don't know, but it might have been, you know, we want him to be looking out of screen right, or I don't know. But, and this is the thing about trying to second guess people, you can't read people's minds. Yes. The point I was going to make, though, is you say, well, you know, lots of people on the left think the BBC's right wing and whatever. A lot of people say that. I actually think it's a little bit more nuance than that.

Yes. In the people on the left who think the BBC is right wing tend to be on the extremes of the left. They are far, far progressive way out there people. Not really. My uncle and aunt were saying it last night. Really? Well, maybe my theory is not true. But what I was going to say is, look, people might disagree with this, is whereas the people who think,

the BBC has a left-leaning bias are kind of anyone who is in the center and onwards. Yes. And one of the arguments I would put forward in defense of that theory is that, or at least in defense of the theory that the BBC, where it leans, it leans mostly to the left. He's look at what's happened since the presenters have left. Once the presenters leave, you find out what the actual beliefs are. And look, Andrew Neal clearly center-right. Yeah.

But look at Emily Maitlis, look at Lewis Goodall. I mean, look, John Sopple, who's another one. Like all of these people are very, very much on the left. And they were not shy. I mean, the one thing you would say about Andrew Neal during his time at the BBC is that he skewered everybody equally. Everybody respected Andrew Neal, not for his views that aligned with their views, but for his neutrality and his principles and his doggedness and pursuing them.

But when you talk about other people, they were implementing their worldview while they were at the BBC. And they were respected not for their neutrality, but they were loved for the fact that they were sticking it to Trump and they were sticking it to this and they were sticking into that. That's, I think, the difference. Yeah, I think the thing about neutrality is what was very interesting after the panorama story broke. and then my news night revelation came a few days after, and the head of news resigned. And she called it an error. And I think that's the difference is you can make mistakes,

but you can't make that kind of mistake. You cannot be... And as you say, that I think even on the Today program, and I can't remember the chap's name who presents that, But even he, there was no apology. There was no, you know, we fucked up big time here. You know, this should never have gone out. This is an obvious case of bias.

It was a mistake. Oh, we made an error. And the thing is, from what I saw, from the people that I were around, would pretty much seem to be of that ilk. That they are, nobody's going to rock the boat. Nobody's going to, like your... around the whole, you know, Joe Rogan-Ivermectin thing, that you, that opened my eyes to a media landscape

where people are pushing, I know it's such a cliche, pushing a narrative. And you get the feeling that within the BBC, they can't see beyond, you know, their own, as I said, their own bubble. And it not only goes, it's not only in news and current affairs, that this, you know, the whole ideology, that you get scripts in EastEnders,

which are sort of pushing a narrative, that you get Doctor Who, where you're having non-binary aliens and a very camp, Doctor Who. And you realize that it's not the organization that it's, you know, purported to be. There are people within the BBC who I admire, and met and met in passing.

And so let's say Frank Gardner is the security guy. But anyway, I met Frank Gardner in the cafeteria one morning, and I'd just seen him on. There's a massive jumbatron as you go into the reception at the BBC. I'm sure you've seen it. And I'd just seen him in the morning as I came in for my morning. shift or in the morning and I met him in the, and I have a great deal of affection for that guy. I mean, who can't have affection for a guy who is blown up in Saudi Arabia by Al-Qaeda?

You know, you would expect that guy to be the, but then, you know, we have affection for the BBC and I think that the worry is, how long is that affection going to last? How many mistakes can, mistakes can they make before people say, hang on a minute, This isn't the, how many people are going to see fuck-ups on news, social engineering on kids' programs and entertainment, before they say, hang on a minute, this is not worth the license fee? And I think it was, is it 100,000 people last year stopped paying their license fee? I read that it was 300,000. 300,000 either refused or stopped paying. Yeah.

I mean, I'm not here to, you know, to bomb the BBC and prevent them. I would like them to get their acting order. But how long can they ask people for money in this plural, pluralistic media landscape that you guys are getting people like Netanyahu on your show? and he probably won't go on the BBC. That's because you know she's not going to get treated a fair hearing. He's probably going to be clipped, you know. So, you know, and I find that very interesting.

How long can you effectively run a state-run media organization where you get and effectively tax people to own a colour TV, and you're putting out mistruths, you're putting out lies, and you're putting out entertainment that people are saying, hang on a minute, I just wanted to see a time lord traveling around. I don't want to see non-binary aliens. Let me introduce you to the people I work with to protect my family against financial instability, inflation and turmoil.

For me, one of the best ways to safeguard your wealth is by investing in gold, and that's why I trust the pure gold company. Here's a smart tip. If you buy UK minted gold coins like sovereigns, you won't pay VAT when you buy them or capital gains tax when you sell. All the profit is yours to keep. And the best part, gold is a completely private investment.

It's outside the banking system, so it can't be manipulated by governments or anyone else. Unlike digital assets, it's yours in the truest sense. The pure gold company is trusted by first-time investors and seasoned professionals alike. What I really appreciate about them is a knowledgeable, pressure-free approach. They explain everything clearly, so you feel confident about your decisions and they never push you to buy. Physical gold has stood the test of time as a store of value, and it offers peace of mind that

other assets can't match. It's reassuring to know that even if the banking system falters, your gold and its value remains safe. Whether you're looking to diversify your investments, protect your savings, or just gain the security of owning a real physical asset, we highly recommend the pure gold company. Click the link in the description or go to pure dash gold.com slash trigger to get your free copy of the investor guide. That's pure dash gold.co slash trigger. Take control of your financial future today. The right window treatments change everything, your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what

your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure. Right now, get up to percent off with minimum purchase, plus get a free professional measure at blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply. It's quite a profound point. I guess my question is this. Part of the criticism of the BBC has always been, look, the reason the BBC's in the mess it's in is because it employs a lot of people from the same type of background. They tend to be very middle class. They tend to be university educated, probably red brick, probably Oxbridge. And as a result of that, you get the

same type of people, you get the same type of opinion. This isn't representative of the average person in the UK. How much do these type of people, how much does Emily Maitlis have in common with someone from Middlesbrough, for instance, in a council estate? Do you think that is at the nub of this problem? I think so. And I saw that with, occasionally they would send a producer up in a car somewhere. And I thought that they'd. weren't. Somewhere dreadful. Go meet the plebs. Don't stay too long. You might catch something. And I don't think that they were doing that enough. And I think you're absolutely right. There was a particular type of person. But there were people willing to do proper investigative journalism. Like you had Hannah Barnes, who did the, you know, the trans story and what was that clinic called? The Tabistock.

The Tabistock. The Tabistock. So there are people still wanting to put out really important stories. But there are a lot of people, as you say, who are of that ilk, as you say. They're a university educated. You have to be fairly bright to work there. And they all have that same kind of left wing-ish. And I think that it goes deeper that the left see themselves as the good guys and that, you know,

like the Guardian, we are the good guys and you're the Nazis, stuff like that. So yes, you're right. I think they need to get out more. I think they need to hire people. It's that whole question, isn't it? It's not diversity of skin color, it's diversity of thought. I don't understand, and maybe people do have these discussions and they're having them behind closed doors, why they're not looking at the numbers of people not renewing their

licence, of people not coming back to the BBC, declining viewing figures, and quite frankly, bricking it going, we're going to all going to be out of a job here if we don't sort ourselves out. I think there's a certain arrogance about the BBC. There's a certain arrogance. about people that they are the gold standard. And that's sort of, I'm sure you two watched TV in the 1990s, and you had Paxman on, you know, Paxo on Newsnight, you had brilliant comedy, whether it's only fools and horses. And we all have an affection for it.

And that's why it's sort of, I think, clinging on. But they are constantly eroding that affection. And I thought what was interesting was in the news article about the whole panorama thing, it said the BBC is still the most trusted news source. And I thought, Google that, you know, where is that coming in? Is that true? How long can that remain that they are the most trusted source if they keep doing stuff like this? And how long are they going to realize that I can't remember when you said 300,000,

It's like a massive amount of money that they're missing out. It's almost like a billion, isn't it, or something? You know, if you keep losing a billion a year, you know, where is that organisation going to be in five years, ten years, and why aren't they doing something about it? And I think this is the struggle at the moment, and I don't know the politics within all the higher-ups. I can't remember what does they call the...

So you've got the chairman and you've got the trustees, is it that they call... What are they saying to each other in that room? You know, are they saying, for God's sake, get it together? You know, we need to get some right-wing people. We need to have other viewpoints. But this is why I think the point about diversity of background is actually so important. And Francis makes a very good point, as he always does, about the working class being underrepresented.

Thank you. But I actually, I think it's not even just about class. Sometimes it's as simple as geography. I remember making this point at some point while I was on the BBC about the fact that, well, diversity of skin color is really important because we have to reflect our community. And even if you accept that as a premise,

the problem is that all of these people live in big cities, which are very diverse ethnically. And I made the point, well, what if you're watching a BBC program in Hastings? Yeah. I used to, are you still representing your local community? Because, you know, I was just in Crowber of filming protests against an asylum hotel.

A military base that's going to potentially be used for that. Crobra, through no fall of its own, a very welcoming place, is 96% white. Now, if I'm watching the BBC in Crobra that is made by people who want to represent their local community, which is in a city, London, does that represent me? Am I watching a program that reflects my community, the values of my community, the backgrounds of the people in my community?

So sending someone on an expedition to Kroberra for a couple of hours isn't enough to give you the perspective of what it's like to be living in one of those communities. And that's why it's really actually, I think, important that the BBC is not allowed to do what it has done, which has become an elitist club for people with one particular word. worldview in a way that Rod Little, who I mentioned earlier, who was the editor of the Today program, I think? Yeah. Now, I think it was today. Yeah. Would never in a million years be allowed within a barge pole of the BBC.

Yeah. Right? Oh, absolutely. That is what's happened. And that's why it has become so closed off to differences of opinion. So if they get me or Rod or Matt Goodwin or someone on question time every now and again, I think that's good and important. But I actually think, unless you...

you deal with the staffing issue, which Francis brings up, you're always going to have this problem, where you look at people who don't have your politics, who don't have your worldview, as some hostile foreign force that must be appeased instead of half the country whose views really have to be included and represented in a fair and balanced way. And the other thing that they are in is they're very much in the Westminster bubble. because, you know, and they're all, lots of the political correspondence have got, you know, people that they can talk to within the political parties on pretty much on speed dial. And I think it is that Westminster, you know, London bubble.

And when they would go to other places, I remember they went to Cardiff. So you're taking a whole load of BBC people to another BBC location, another bubble. another bubble, so one bubble to another. And, you know, we're being diverse in our location. And they did, I remember they also did a, like a town hall, almost like a question time type thing. But how are they vetting the people? Yeah, it is absolutely.

There is this, they are living in. And even the edifice of the BBC, you know, this sort of palatial building. You can't help that, obviously. But it gives you this sort of, it's almost at the Castle of Mordor or something. To me, that's a little bit extreme. I actually think it should be the other way around. When you go into the BBC, you should be stunned into the significance of the thing that you're working in. And therefore, the principles to which that organisation adheres should be burnt into your mind as the North Star by which you're operating.

so that you can never doctor a clip of a guy you happen not to like, both as an individual who did that and as the institution that oversaw that, because you have a greater purpose. And that greater purpose is objective reporting of the truth and setting the standard. This is why I feel so passionately. Sorry that I'm ranting, but I do. My grandfather living in Soviet Russia, right,

he freed his mind by listening to BBC World Service. The BBC has been an incredibly important institution. I don't, and you know, a lot of the conversation after the story broke was, oh, these people who want to destroy the BBC, they're using it as a weapon. No. What we're saying is the BBC should be what it's supposed to be, and then we would be the first people to celebrate it. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, and the fact is you're saying you should walk in and you should say, you know,

I need to uphold my values, I need to have values. And outside the BBC is a statue of George Orwell. And it's as if the truth means anything, or I can't remember, I'll mangle the quote. But if something means anything, it's the ability to tell people the truth. If freedom of speech means anything, it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear. Exactly. And I think that the BBC are afraid of that. And I also think as well, it's not that they don't, they're afraid of telling people what they don't want to hear.

It seems to me that they're scared of the staff almost. I think so. And I think that if you were to, you're in a bubble. And as I said, there was a producer who would throw hand grenades in the editorial meeting. And he was seen as a bit of a sort of live wire and, you know, he was seen as, you know, a contrarian. But you need people like that, but you also need left and right. Of course. You need somebody.

And this is what I remember you saying about your cousins from Venezuela, whispering. Yeah. That's what we used to do at the BBC, was we'd be sort of whispering. You would pick your allies. You knew who was on the graphic design team, who was on the left and who was on the right, just through their reactions to various stories. And we'd be whispering because you don't want to be heard. You don't want to give yourself away that you are possibly carrying.

to, you know, you're doing a story about somebody and you're thinking, is this true? You know, what are they saying about this guy? Do you think that the BBC as an institution can be saved? I'm not the person to ask, but since I'm your guest, I will, it can be saved, but I think it's going to have to choose a different model. I genuinely think that the days of the license fee are over, I think that it's going to have to become a, what's Netflix? What's that? That's a subscription. It's going to have to become a subscription model. I think if you want the BBC, you're going to have to pay for it. And they are going to have to massively slim down. And they're going to have to change their remit. You know, they can't be everything to all people. They're going to have to choose.

They're going to be an entertainment channel. Are you going to be a news channel? They're trying to do too many things. Their remit is too broad. They are going to, I don't want to see them die. I genuinely don't want to see. Nobody does, because we all have this affection for auntie. And it was the voice that we trusted.

I'm not sure you can ever get back that trust if you tell lies. At a moment when so much feels uncertain and confused, it's worth remembering that the first Americans were searching for the same things, truth, clarity, and purpose. Hillsdale College's new free documentary series, Colonial America, from wilderness to civilization, tells that story. Access the whole course at hillsdale.edu slash trigger. You'll learn why Liberty, especially the freedom to live by your own conscience, inspired people to cross an ocean.

You'll learn how they built self-governing communities from nothing, and how they'll learn how they their belief in hard work and virtue laid the foundations for peace and prosperity. We proudly promote Hillsdale's courses time and again, and for good reason, they're thoughtful, beautifully made and provide a world-class education completely free. So if you want to understand how American freedom began and why those lessons still matter today, this is the series to watch. Go to Hillsdale.org slash trigger to enroll for free. That's hillsdale.edu slash trigger and learn how America's story really began. I think part of the challenge of BBC faces

is that you've employed all of these people who are fiercely ideological, who, let's be honest, don't really care about the truth as long as they get their message out and they smear, stop, or do their best to try and get someone elected. I mean, what do you do when you have a whole cohort of people working in your organisation like that?

Well, I think the thing is, What is interesting is it's not like you go in and there's everybody's wearing, you know, Palestinian flags. You know, it's not so easy to spot. It's not a sort of rabid, like when I went to St. Martins, you had a sort of rabid national union of students. It's not like you're walking into that. You're walking into very pleasant people talking, but you are talking to the North London set,

the Islington set, you are with those people. And it's very, very hard. How do you make sure you have an ideological mix within an organization? How do you, you know, do you have to have your own struggle sessions within the BBC so that you open people's minds? But do you, or do you police it much more? And you have like the hand grenade thrower in,

who says, let's do a right wing story. Let's, you know, how do you balance it? So you have like guests like yourself, more off the cunts on speed panel. I don't, the short answer is I don't know. But that's what Francis was saying. This is why it starts with leadership because if the head of the organization says, what we are about is a mix of opinions and every editorial meeting should be fierce debate about how to cover a particular story, that's how you get balanced.

You don't get balanced by having, people won't realize this. we have fierce arguments about how to cover certain things in trigonometry. Yeah. And that's just between me and Francis. And they're not, they're not, they're not arguments that are nasty, they're arguments about what the right approach is. And the right approach is found through the bringing of different perspectives together, those challenges, those two things being challenged against each other, other voices coming in as well. That's how you get some attempt to get to the truth. Whereas if you have an ideology, if you have a worldview that you're trying to project,

that's a whole different thing. And look, trigonometry could be incredibly biased if we chose to and we made more money doing it. But the BBC doesn't have that luxury. The BBC is a publicly funded organization where I hope you're wrong. I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, but I hope you're wrong, is I think the moment the BBC ceases to be publicly funded, it will cease. It will lose the ability to be. an attempt to reach an objective coverage of news because that business model in the highly

polarized world that we now live in, I don't think that really works anymore. And so I do think it should be publicly funded, but in order to be a publicly funded news organization in the 21st century, you have to go up a level of integrity. You have to go up a level of objectivity. You have to go up a level of neutrality if you want to survive. And I hope they do that. Absolutely. I mean, and they've made these strange attempts like BBC Verify and, you know. It didn't quite work out, let's be honest. The tragedy for me for the BBC is that it still has this opportunity to be the gold bearer. It has the opportunity to assume the mantle of high quality journalism that nobody else can do.

Nobody else can do. Nobody else can do it in America because they've got their own declining views and they're so partisan. There's no way back. And we're going the same way over here. And it's almost like seeing this hero of yours who you had right the way through your childhood and your early youth. And you just want to shake them and go, there's still time. There's still time. If you do objective, fact-based reporting, you are one of the few people organizations that can actually still

still do it. But don't you think that you two and other people like you are the beneficiaries of this because the BBC is so biased that you can have views outside of? No, I don't agree. I think that, look, of course, for us to be able to say, look, the mainstream media is not covering this story, we'll cover it. That's beneficial. But the BBC doesn't have to compete with us. The BBC does not have to compete with a podcast. What the BBC could do is be the platform that everybody goes to and goes, okay, here the fact as they've been reported, now we get to argue about our opinions. And Emily Maitliss and Lewis Goodall can have their opinions. We can have our opinions. People who are, you know, on the right can have their opinions. That's how it should be if the BBC

was willing to act in the role that it actually has. To say nothing of the fact, by the way, look, One of the things that's going to happen, we've just come from America and we already see this is happening. The mainstream is going to try and start bringing, Brett Cooper is a good example. She's a right-wing presenter, formerly of the Daily Wire. Now she has a slot on Fox News every now and again. The mainstream media is going to start bringing people from our world into that. And I guarantee you the BBC is not going to do that. I guarantee you. They're not going to bring in, you know, I don't know, I'm trying to think of... Russell Brand.

Well, Russell Brand has got his issues, which makes things more difficult. But I'm trying to think of a... I was trying to think of a... They're not... They might bring Gary's economics to do a documentary, but they're not going to bring me and Francis on to do a documentary. And this is the problem, right? Because it's a lack of balance in the approach.

If they fix that, we would celebrate the BBC. People in the middle, like us, would celebrate it. people, some people on the right would abandon. And I can tell you, on the right in this country, if you speak to people, there is no appetite for the BBC to survive in the way that we have it. And if they just did their job, people are dying now for objective journalism. People are crying out for it. But I also think that the messaging within drama as well, I think the messaging across the board. I mean, I used to love Radio 4. And you can't listen to it without being, I mean, I remember switching on and there was a drama about a gay Muslim. Now, I'm sure there are gay

Muslims, but it was... They're probably not that vocal. No, they're probably not that vocal. There's so many dark jogs today. I know, I was going to say, yeah, my mind went there. Yeah, so I was listening one, the last time I listened, I listened to the money program, what do you call it, the Woman's Hour, and then this drama is when I switched off. But Woman's Hour is somebody saying, you need to get angry. This woman's saying, you need to scream. And I was thinking, my God, you know, this show has changed so much. And I'm not sure whether you two do this, but I now watch BBC 4.

It's a BBC that, and I know that's very old fart. you're watching old stuff. But you watch that and you think, my God, you know, how the mighty have fallen. And I think that you need to do something. You need to police the news. You need to have somebody who is right-wing and is unashamed and is proud to be able to say that.

And I think the thing is, in editorial meetings, after a couple of times I stopped putting my hand up, not because I wanted to give stories, but I thought, well, there's no bloody point. I know you're just a graphic designer, you're not a, you're not a, but your opinion on things and your idea of things is so far from what they're saying, I'm not even going to bother, I'm not going to be listened to. So you need to have different editorial voices in news and current affairs. You also need an entertainment, you need to actually have somebody reading through these scripts and say, what's this got to do with space aliens?

You know, what's this, you know, were there really black people who are Roman centurions who came to the UK? Is this a proper, should we be teaching this? There should be actual questions. And because the BBC farms out a lot of stuff to independent production companies, like October films, who was on that? Who on the BBC was on that? There's a lot of people, senior people within the BBC correspondence,

And they come back and this is, I'm doing the story on this. I didn't know the machinations of how stories appeared out of the ether, but you'd have a correspondent saying, I'm going to do this story and you see them writing. Where do they get their stories from? You know, and who's checking them? Who's saying, you know, is this correct? And in the Hannah Barnes, did she have somebody mentoring her?

I don't know, saying, you know, this is what we need to say. there were obviously editorial meetings. They'd have editorial meetings and discuss their shows. But apart from that guy that I said was the hang grenade man, there were very few different opinions. And you need to do that across the board. You need to do that in entertainment. You need to do that in sort of light programming.

You need to do that for the one show, for Strictly Come Dancing, everything. And I think it's a monumental task for them to turn the ship around. And I think as well, look, let's also be fair to the BBC. They're facing this major challenge which every big organisation is facing, which is the politicisation of everything. And in particular young people. And I think we need to get back to a culture of, you know what,

you have your religion, you have your politics. If you identify as a fish from Friday to Sunday evening, identify as a fish, I don't care. When you come into work, you do your job. Just do your job. And I saw it in teaching. People started to bring their politics into teaching. I'm going, why are you teaching the kids about Brexit

when they can't even write their own name and they're eight years old? Yes. I think you need to be the doorman on the BBC. See, this is a classic thing. Because I make a point I've got to say, I'm the doorman. You should be the cleaner, mate. Yeah. You know what you'd be good at?

mate, cleaning the bogs. Why don't you do that? On that happy note, David, we appreciate you coming on and thank you for helping the story to come out the way it has. It's really important that people like you speak up when organizations that we all love and want to succeed go off the rail. So thanks for coming on. Thank you. We're going to ask you some questions from our supporters that they've submitted in a second. But before we do, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we should before David answers a final question at the end of the interview make sure to head over to our substack the link is in the description where you'll be able to see this was there anyone at the BBC that you could tell about your concerns

about what's what was going on is a BBC doing any similar antics with other right-wing leaders will the person or persons who actually did the Trump edits ever be sacked or identified okay this might be a bit of a curveball but I think you should be producing comedy and drama. You too. I think the trigonometry, you should set up a division. I think you should crowd fund original content, original written drama, comedy and start putting, you're doing this, which is great, you're in this sphere, but people need to be producing stuff where there isn't the ideological weight of someone like the BBC where you can cast the people that you want for the stories that you want.

And like your podcast, it might grow slowly. There'll be lots of challenges ahead. But I think that you need to be starting. People like trigonometry and other people need to be making drama. Start by making short films. Start trying to get features made. Get people in who unfunded. this stuff and take it on the road because you're going to have difficulties getting it shown

at mainstream TV, etc. But we need in this country a groundswell of independent journalism, independent drama, independent advertising even. I've got friends who work in film and drama and also in advertising. And some of the lunacy that we see in news and current affairs is all there and advertising and drama. So I think that it's, I see it as an opportunity. I think that you guys have got a great opportunity. You've got a wonderful, you know, you've got a growing audience. And if you were to ask them, we're going to make a horror film. We're going to make a series of short horror films. Does anybody want to get involved financially? We'll package it all up. I think that you guys are the future of independent media and I think you need to be, I think you need to be, what's the

right word, exploiting that a bit more. All right. We will be exploiting everything. We are called exploitative by many people, so we're going to lean into it. David, thank you so much for coming on. Head on over to triggerpod.com.ukau. Where we're going to ask some of your questions to David. Does the BBC intentionally publish false or unverified information about Israel? If it does, why?

This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at an aquarium. Tova forms an unlikely friendship with the cramudgeonly Marcellus, whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Remarkably bright creatures is now playing. Only on Netflix.