TRIGGERnometry - "Why I Joined and Left the Far-Right": Jack Buckby

Episode Date: March 8, 2020

Jack Buckby is a British counter-extremism researcher, former far-right activist and author of Monster of Their Own Making: How the Far Left, the Media, and Politicians are Creating Far-Right Extremists. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest this week is a former far right extremist who is now a counter-extremism researcher. Jack Bugby, welcome to Trigonometry. Cheers for having me on. Welcome to the show.

It's good to have you, man. Before we get into, like we talked about before, if we're the mainstream media, we would spend 40 minutes grilling you about all the things that you've done. done in the past and it is quite a list. I mean rightfully so. Rightfully so. But our sense of you having spoken with you is that you've moved on, you're working as a counter extremist now. I think you've really genuinely abandoned all the stuff that you had. But just for anyone who doesn't know you, just give us a quick rundown of a little bit of your life story. How did you become a far right extremist? Some of the antics you got up to and you know why you decided to move away

from it. Yeah, absolutely. I will. And one thing I would say just to sort of precurs that is that I've not become like a left-wing liberal, multiculturalist sort of, you know, hippie-dippy person. Interviews over guys. I've not like completely switched sides. So what's interesting, I think, I hope, is I'm very much a conservative, you know. I would be to the right of center. But what's changed is that I came from this ultra-nationalist, white nationalist, white separatist, white supremacist sort of movement that really started taking off in the mid-2000s.

And yeah, I mean, let's start there. I was a teenager. I come from a working class town up north called Skelmersdale. Not a very mixed race sort of multicultural town, I have to say. It's one of the whitest places you can visit. It's still very white. But the immigration we saw was Polish. And so there was a sort of an anger about the economic side of things there,

especially during 2008 with the crash and people started losing jobs. And then you've got this Polish community that were seemingly taking the jobs and it creates anger, right? So I was like 15 years old and I remember seeing Nick Griffin on the TV and I think it must have been the run-up to the 2009 elections where they got about a million votes and two seats. And I remember seeing him on the TV and thinking, well, he's not wrong about that. You know, immigration was too high and things like this and this was a time when the BMP was sort of claiming to have modernized, right? You know, we're not neo-Nazis anymore guys, you know, we're just, you know, against immigration.

and we're standing up for working class people. And when you look at the Labor Party, who was responsible for opening the borders in 97 onwards, you look at the Tory party, well, people from Skema, never gonna vote Tory, you know, it felt like there was no one else. And so I was a 15, 16 year old going through high school. I remember leaving high school,

the very, very last day of high school, I was leaving through the front doors saying goodbye to the teachers, and my PE teacher asked me, what are you gonna do with your life? I literally turned to her and said, I'm joining the far right. And she went, oh, and I went, but not the bad far right, the good far right. She was like, okay, best of luck.

And it was the last time I ever saw her. So then I went to college, and it just sort of deepened and became more entrenched. And yeah, I became an active member of the British National Party. I think part of the reason what pushed me from just seeing the logic of what Nick Griffin was saying on the TV, which was immigration is too high. Maybe we should leave the European Union, things like that, was also I went to Preston. when I was a teenager, I'd never been to Preston before, and it was the total opposite of what Scam my hometown was.

It was very Muslim, very non-white. I saw street signs that weren't in English. I saw mosques and people in Berkers. I've never seen that before. And there's something really emotive about that, I think. Some people might call it racist or whatever, but it's not a feeling of hatred towards people. It's just a genuine shock when you see that for the first time.

And a lot of people would agree with me. Polls show time and time again that the British people have concerns. about multiculturalism. And I just think there's something really emotive about it. And when the media, the politicians, far-left activists, when they all tell you that that's something you can't talk about, makes you really want to talk about it. And again, I felt like nobody else was, you know, talking about these problems. And then I learned about the grooming gang things. And that really set me off. So I started becoming an activist in Blackpool for a case relating to a girl called Charlene Downs.

There's a lot of questions about that one. She was a victim of Muslim grooming gangs, but it's later come out that actually the guy or person who murdered her, we still don't know. The latest assumption is that it was a white fella, but the BNP really capitalised on that story. I eventually left the BNP because anti-Semitic abuse incredibly.

I'm not Jewish. My step-great-grandfather was Jewish. He came from Germany, he was a German Jew, he was in Dacow, came to England and married my grandmother. So I'm not connected to him by blood or anything, but I was wearing his wedding ring at a BMP meeting in St. Helens, the first meeting I ever went to. And somebody pulled me up about it, are you married?

And I was wearing it on my right hand. I'm like, no, I'm not married. It was my grandfather, and I told him the story. And immediately the tone changed. And I was like, ah, this is interesting. At this point, I wasn't really, I didn't really know. about the whole anti-Semitism thing. I didn't really know that much about the BMP's past, but things really changed. And to this day, I've still got these people claiming I'm a secret

Jew. You know, I... They made Francis knows what you're talking about. There's a lot of people online who think I'm a secret Jew. It's like a really amazing thing. It was awful, the abuse they put me through. You know, I used to have to meet with police when I lived in Liverpool because I was getting attacks from communists as well as the far right. The neo-Nazis had me on their, um, dab on site list. It was really crazy. And so eventually I left the BMP and then I joined part of the counter-jihad movement. And to this day I've got massive concerns about Islamism.

You know, I've not completely changed my opinion on that. I think there's a real issue there that we need to talk about. Now I kind of feel like maybe there's better people to talk about it than me. I'm not a scholar. But, you know, so I joined that movement. And so from being a teenager in a white nationalist movement, I became in my early 20s, a gobshite, who was not a white nationalist, and had some what I believe genuine concerns about a lack of representation of working class communities and things like that.

But I would not express myself in the best way, and I would do awful things. Channel 4 in my early 20s, four years ago or something, I handed this woman a form to take an Assyrian refugee and told her, I hope you're taking a refugee, and I hope you don't get raped. Looking back, yeah, it's a terrible thing to say. I stand by the principle, don't get me wrong, there was a massive issue at the time with

the migrant rape crisis and we weren't talking about it. My idea was that if you're as shocking as possible, people hate me anyway, so maybe I'd become the guy everyone hates but at least we're talking about the issue. The same thing when I stood, I stood for Joe Cox's constituency in 2016, early 2016 I think that was. And again, I stood because local people who contacted me, told me about the grooming gang issue that was actually happening in Batley, which is still something I don't think people are really talking about in Batley. But I ran a really aggressive campaign in Joe Cox's seat. And arguably, I'm the reason why the election even happened, because if nobody had stood against the Labour candidate, then there wouldn't have been an actual election.

They would have just appointed someone. So I guess that's the sort of summed up version of my history. And also you were friends with Jack Renshaw. Oh yeah, how did I miss that one? Yeah, I was wondering how you missed that one. Yeah, so, well, you know, it's kind of hard. It's a long story. No, by the way, we have viewers all over the world.

Who was Jack Renshaw? So Jack Renshaw is a terrorist, convicted terrorist. Also, I think, technically a paedophile. Technically a pedophile. I could have all the bases coming there. It sounds like a top lad. I can't really. remember whether it was something he did when he was underage two, I don't know.

Underage paedophile, that is an achievement. I'm afraid I can't offer any insight on that bit. I have no idea. All I know is, Jack Wrenshaw was a young lad from my hometown scam. He was a couple of years younger than me. We were friends. And it's kind of weird talking about him like this, because people forget that neo-Nazis aren't always neo-Nazis. They were normal at some point. And Jack was very much normal at one point and for those who don't don't know him he tried to murder or plotted to murder our local MP Rosie Cooper purely for the fact that I think she was accessible because she's not particularly notorious nobody really knows who Rosie Cooper even is there's probably people

Googling her now but he plotted to kill her with a machete and I remember hearing the news about it and it really shocked me because when I knew him he was just a normal lad he had concerns about immigration as most people do in the northwest and lots of working class towns everywhere really. But I just saw this gradual progression when we were both in the BMP. I left the BMP in like 2012 or something like that. He stayed and it was really interesting because when I was in the BMP I would kind of parrot what Nick Griffin would say, the leader of the BMP. I would go and have meetings with him. He'd tell me this, that and the other, and I'd go home, I'd think about it, and then I'd parrot basically exactly the words that he used.

used and I was very much sort of like a rising star within the far right so I was sort of being groomed in a way I think because I was young and articulate and I could you know put a speech together if I had to whereas a lot of the young supporters of the BMP were vulnerable young lads you know not always that smart or if they were smart they were more interested in like the sports side of things whereas I was very much a nerd so I was sort of it fit and I left because of, as I say, the abuse I was getting and stuff like that, and lots of other reasons we can talk about later, I suppose, but Jack stayed and he got worse and worse. And then when the BMP sort of collapsed after, well, 2010 onwards, I suppose, it started collapsing.

He joined National Action, which was terrorist organization. And he just became a full-on neo-Nazi. And I saw that progression happen, and I stopped talking to him as I saw it getting really bad. But yeah, I mean, that was just a really bizarre experience. And it's something we're seeing and go over the world. It is young lads seemingly normal who just become monsters, like out of nowhere. And you said that you parroted Nick Griffin's opinions. How did it work this process of radicalisation? Because I'm sure that it works with lots of things, not just the far right,

but also, you know, Islamic fundamentalism. How do you go from a normal young lad? It was 15, 16, to entering this organization, to then parroting Nick Griffin, to then saying awful things. How does that process work? So, I've just written a book, plug, sorry, Monster of the Roan Making, and it's kind of like autobiography, sort of, but it's interlaced with, you know, analysis and ideas. And the argument I make in the book is that I think there's two kinds of people that join these organizations. There's principled fanatics and joiners.

And a joiner is someone who's devoid of any sort of ideology. It's someone who's kind of an outcast, they're vulnerable, they don't have much going in their life and they're looking for a community. And I think that works for lots of other groups. I'd say a lot of SJWs are joiners. But then a principled fanatic is somebody, I would say I'm probably a principled fanatic because there was an element of being a joiner. You know, I was an outcast, I'm a bit weird and a bit of a nerd. But I joined because I saw real world problems, you know. I always say extremism isn't created in a void.

You don't just become something out of nothing. And when you're a principled fanatic, it's because you have principles, you see a real problem, you see grooming gangs, or you see that immigration is too high and nobody wants to talk about that because it's racist. And so you join pretty much anyone who's willing to talk about it. And I did. And yeah, within a few years, you end up just sort of, it snowballs, I suppose. But there's another argument I make, which is the three-pronged attack. And that is, I think it's a process. So it starts with negligent politicians.

You know, the politicians, it's inconvenient for them to talk about certain issues. They might get dogpiled if they do talk about it. So immigration, multiculturalism, leaving the EU even. They don't talk about these issues because it's difficult, but those issues are very real for some groups of people, white working class people in particular. And so then you look to the media and you think, well, the media should be that check on the politicians, right? the media should be the one standing up to the politicians, but actually the media are the ones calling the working class people racist.

And so at the end you go out on the street, and when you go out on the street and you're shouting from the rooftops, it's like, please do something about these problems we care about, and then the far-left activists brick your window or something or smash you over the head with a bike lock. And so it's backing people into a corner. And no matter whether you agree with the concerns or the ideas that some sections of the white working-class community might have,

No matter whether you agree with them or not, politicians should represent those people, or at least talk about those issues. And because they're not, this three-pronged attack, this process is backing people into a corner and leaving them with nowhere to go. And most people just shut up and put their head down and accept, oh, this is life now. You know, political correctness gone mad and they have conversations in the kitchen at parties, you know, under hush tones about, you know, it's crazy, isn't it? But then a lot of people don't want to live.

like that. They don't want to live in secrecy and so they get really angry about it. And most of those lads end up joining the far right because there's no one else talking about. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being, rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers.

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Who's the far right? Right, okay. So one thing I always get is what bugs me? I'm more on the conservative side of things, but one thing that I see with conservatives that really annoys me, and I hope they won't get turned off by this when they read the book, is that whenever there's a far right attack, I'll get to the definition. Whenever there's a far-right attack, like the Poway Synagogue shootings and things like that in America, conservatives always look to see if that person holding the gun has ever espoused ideas like socialised healthcare or something like that.

Because then they point the finger and say, ah, he was a progressive liberal. He believed in socialism and he was actually left-wing. It's like, come on, guys, he wasn't shooting up a synagogue because he was a socialist. He wasn't shooting Jews because of an economic belief. He was shooting them out of really extreme right-wing, social views. If a conservative or a nationalist believes in restricting immigration, then someone on the extreme end believes in killing or deporting the people they don't want to be there. So I think it's pointless talking about economics when we're talking about this kind of realm.

Let's talk about the social values. So if someone who wants to deport all non-white people wants to kill the Jews or thinks the Jews run this global conspiracy to control the West, which is crazy, if they're not far right, then who is? You know? So if we were going to sort of, let's be quite avert about this, if we were going to put together a checklist for someone who is far right, what would you say is on that checklist? Anti-Semitism, I would say. And then an idea of not just accepting that European people exist, I don't think that's inherently extreme, I think that's just scientific fact, but wanting to deport anyone who isn't white was definitely going in there. people who want to kill people who aren't white, people who are completely authoritarian

about values relating to European identity. Don't get me wrong. I consider myself a culturist. That means I believe in the primacy of national culture. I believe in a unifying culture for one nation. I'm not a multiculturalist. But there's people who take that to an extreme. But yeah, I mean, that's always that would be the checklist.

Yeah, well, that's actually something that I think, you know, that's a very reasonable view. point that most people are, that's my view as well, you know. I think actually, yeah, probably just over half, maybe a majority, actually polls do show a majority of British people think like this. Don't ask me to name the poll, but I know there's a few of them. Yeah, I think it's perfectly normal to believe in the primacy of national culture, but you just can't talk about it. Yeah, but this is one of the biggest problems that we've had with multiculturalism, being the idea that there's no such thing as British culture.

They've destroyed over time our ability to have a kind of civic nationalism around what it means to be British. So I'm delighted to be British and I've tried in my time in this country too. That's because you're actually British. That's why you're so fucking miserable all the time. Cheer up. But my point is, like, in the time that I've lived here, I've tried to adapt to British values, to kind of complain about the weather, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Like, I've tried to incorporate myself into this country because I do see this country having a national identity. Of course. And what has happened over the last 20 years is there's been quite deliberate drive to eradicate that, to make that problematic somehow. And if you have a multi-ethnic society,

you cannot have a cohesive society without an overarching identity. That's something that I think most reasonable people actually would accept. And yeah, so I totally hear that. Do you know, I think that's one of the reasons, sorry to interrupt, but I think that's one of the reasons,

You're here to be interviewed, so feel free. So you're going to have to interrupt to get your words in. So the, I think one of the reasons why, this is again, another argument I'm making the book, is that we keep proving the far right, right. So when you have this constant blatant attack on Britishness and British identity and even the idea that a British culture exists, I'm looking at you, Athewah Hirsch, when you attack that basic idea that a country has a unique identity, and then everyone's scared about talking about talking about.

everyone's scared about talking about it to the point where even like conservatives like the from the conservative party are banging on about the you know the diversity in multiculturalism is now strength and all this stuff the only people talking about is the far right you know and if they're right about one thing the right about another thing and the right about another thing then young lads driven by testosterone and anger and the fact that well logically they're correct about some things you're going to end up going to those guys and how much of part do you think like this culture on Twitter and on the internet about white males being the problem, people saying, you know, toxic masculinity, you know, whiteness, all these different

things. Does that, isn't that just fuel to the fire for these? Massively so. That's the third part of the three-pronged attack. Politicians ignore you, media smear you, and then the far left do this, and actually the media does it as well. You know, I think, I feel like we're backing young white men into a corner and that's kind of what I did for a while.

you know, after leaving the BNP, I remember I left the BNP because there were some guys in Liverpool from the old Combat 18 Days National Front. And I was living in Liverpool. I was still technically a member of the BMP at the time. And I was very much on the sort of modernizing wing of the party. You know, I was in favor of allowing non-white people to join. And actually, I was even in favor of civil partnerships because the BMP was even against gay marriage and civil partnerships. You know, I was in favor of changing that policy and things like that. So I was on the modernizing wing of it. But the old school national front lot really hated me. And, you know, the people that were threatening to kill me or stab me had been in prison for stabbing people.

So it was a very real threat. So I was in that world and I, once I saw these things that I couldn't defend anymore and I myself was becoming a target and I thought, maybe I'd made an error here. I tried to leave. And I remember contacting UKIP at the time. And UKIP seems like the natural option, because there was no chance in how a lad from Skem was going to join the Tories. And so the UKIP ended up just telling me, sorry, no, no ex-BMP allowed, disavowed, leave.

And I was like, oh, okay. So not only that, it was like I was cast out of, you know, civilized society. I was a complete sort of, you know, you can't talk to him. The media would only talk to me if it was a chance to have a go at me. And okay, rightly so, I was in the BMP. I get it. But this idea that you can't have redemption for young lads, backing them into this corner and not letting them sort of move on from that, I think is a really dangerous, dangerous thing. And I tried to move on. And, yeah, I couldn't. And so that's why I found myself in the counter-jihad world, because much of my concerns were based around Islamic

terrorism and grooming gangs and female gentlemen mutilation and all the things that come with authoritarian, conservative Islam. And I still don't think a lot of what I said was wrong. I think there are issues we need to talk about, but what I would say is, because I was already cast out, I was very happy to be seen as the bogeyman. People hate me anyway, so I'll just go and say and do awful things as long as it created a conversation. And like when I stood for the, sorry, I feel like I'm going on a massive tangent here, but when I stood for Joe Cox's seat,

I ran a nasty campaign. It was, I remember publishing images of Joe Cox behind bars and things like that. And don't get me wrong, I was obviously not in favor of murdering Joe Cox, tragic, leaving little kids behind and her husband, and it was awful. But my view was, you know,

I met people in Batley who told me, One family told me the story of their daughter who'd been taken from, I won't name the venue, but they told me a venue in Batley where a grooming gang was operating, and people told me still operates. She was taken, kidnapped, taken all the way up north of someone near Newcastle, and was raped by multiple men, escaped through a window, and went to the police, and the police just took her home, and eventually there was not enough evidence, and the case was dropped, and that's that. And that's the story we've heard a million times over by now.

And there were other people in Batam who told me the same thing. And when you go around, when you run for election, you have to get 10 people to sign a piece of paper saying they want you to run. So you have to go and knock on people's doors and say, listen, I'm standing for election. You don't have to vote for me, but will you endorse me as a candidate? And you end up having to knock at about 50 houses or something because not everyone wants to do it.

But I'm not joking when they say a majority of the people I spoke to at the door, doorstep, either their family were victims of it or they knew people who were victims of it. And that may be really bloody angry. And you know, when I see that the former MP, no matter what the tragedy was that happened to her, had basically ignored it because she'd said nothing about it and she was very much one of these Labour politicians who was concerned about what was happening overseas, but this happening on her doorstep didn't care about, that pissed me off. And yeah, okay, I ran a nasty campaign and it was awful and I wouldn't do it now.

I wouldn't dream of doing it now. Because of that lack of redemption, I felt like I had nowhere to go. I had no way of getting these sort of feelings out and talking about them. So I was like, you know what? I'll just be known as an extremist for the rest of my life and I'll carry on doing this. And we keep talking to people and they raise the grooming games, which is awful. I actually taught a girl in East London who was a victim of one of these gangs. And the case actually went to the High Court.

how big a motivator and a recruitment tool is that for far right activity? Huge. It's massive. And it's like when I say when you prove the far right, right. If they're the only ones who wanted to talk about it, and don't remember more people talk about it now, I think we're getting to a better place with this. I'd like to see more convictions, but I think we're getting to a better place with it now. But back in 2009, holy crap, like nobody was talking about this. And that was one of the big motivating factors for me was the case of Charlene Downs. So if you don't know about this case, the media reports that she, I mean, it's horrific. She was chopped up and put into a kebab, basically, is what the story

was at the time. She was a victim of a Muslim, majority Muslim grooming gang in Blackpool, went missing, presumed dead. And the police obtained recordings that sound like they said they chopped her up in the back of the kebab shop and put her in a cabab. But the recordings are really bad quality. The hidden mic was put near a television. You know, you can't really hear what's being said. And I encourage anyone to go and listen to the recordings. That's probably not what happened.

But at the time, it was what the BNP said happened because the police had said it. And the politicians didn't want to talk about it. And that was a massive campaign. The first time I went out with the BNP was in, in Blackpool campaigning for justice for Charlene. And it felt like we were on this sort of righteous tirade, you know. I felt like I was really doing the right thing. It was the first time I had ever gone out to any political protest.

There was this woman who, she was like my BMP mom, so to speak, you know, it becomes like a family. She really took me under a wing the first time I met her in Blackpool and we went out campaigning together and it became this sort of community, but it was a righteous campaign for justice for a young girl. the BMP didn't acknowledge is the fact that those recordings were really, really awful, and the latest evidence seems to suggest that maybe she was actually killed by a white guy. That's not negating the fact that she was a victim of Muslim grooming, but still, you know,

they sort of twisted the facts because they had that opportunity. They were monopolizing on that issue because it's not something the politicians wanted to touch. So grooming gangs is a massive motivating factor, and it's because it proves the far right, right. You know, if they're right about that, if they're right about, you know, multiculturalism being, you know, ineffective, or counterintuitive or whatever. If they're writing about a couple of different things, then, you know, why not join them? Yeah, I have a feeling this episode might be demonetized.

Sorry. I'm still upset that you refer to yourself as British. But anyway. Well, I bet you are. With your voice, especially. We've got an exciting new sponsor, haven't we, Concenton? Yes, we do. It is, in fact, the economist. And The Economist is a fantastic publication,

because it doesn't just deal with economics. It also deals with politics, science, technology. If you want to read what some of the finalist, journalistic minds are writing about today, then The Economist is a publication for you. Yeah, I was reading an article there very recently, incredibly insightful into the US Democratic primary. So if you want that kind of insight into all kinds of things, politics, economics, etc., I really recommend it.

It's been a trusted source of intelligence for people for over 170 years. so they're doing something right. I think one of the things that a lot of particularly middle-class people in London or in the media don't really understand, you know, with a story like yours is, how is a 15-year-old boy you might join a party like the British National Party, which, quote-unquote, for the listeners I'm doing, air quotes, everyone knows is a racist party. Because I guess in their little middle-class head,

what they imagine is someone, you know, sending you the full history of the British National Party with an addendum detailing the Nazi party of 1930s, Germany and World War II history. When actually what happens is you don't really have that. Someone comes up to you in a pub and goes, do you want a job? And you haven't got one. It's because someone's taking it. Well, you know, it's not just, it's, you don't know that background and stuff.

But actually also, even if you do, it kind of doesn't matter. So, you know, I remember going into college in my politics class. I had a Pakistani Muslim politics teacher who I actually got on really great with. Saki, if you're watching, doubt you are. He was really cool. He was a big fan. I know.

He's followed your career very closely, at least. I remember he did actually say to me when I was leaving college, I know you're going to do something I'll be watching for you. And he's also the one who told me you're not BMP yet. You're a conservative. He was kind of right. Took you a little bit of a journey together. He's a lining road.

But I remember after a few classes, is everyone had sort of outed their political beliefs. You know, you had the Tory wing of the class, you had the Labor wing, you had the Lib Dems, you know, you had a few weird greens and stuff like that. And I was the only one who hadn't admitted what I was at this point, because at this point my closest friends knew that I was in the BNP, but I wasn't like as much of a gobshite then as I was.

I was really shy. You've got to understand this. I was super shy, which is why it's so incredible, I became so awful. But I remember the politics teacher, Sakeeb. He was like, Go on Jack, who are you? Go on, you got to tell us. And I'm like, I remember saying to him, I went, I can't, you'll think I'm racist.

And he was like, you've got to tell me. I'm like, BMP. And he was like, yeah, you're racist. I remember he went, you know about their history, right? And I literally just responded, yeah, I don't think it matters. So did you know the history? Yeah, I knew, I knew. So what did you know?

I knew that it started off as the National Front. I knew that there were a load of neo-Nazis in there. But what I also knew is I'd met people from the party and they weren't neo-Nazis. Some of little old ladies, you know, like you might be your neighbor. They were normal people. And this is one thing I say,

and you definitely demonetized, is the BMP was racist, right? Actually, a lot of the members weren't. Sorry, it's true. A lot of the members did not have a burning hatred of black people. Some of them would tell really inappropriate jokes or have a gollywog as a profile picture or something,

but that was mostly a finger up to political correctness. But actually, I don't know if I can say a majority, but a large amount of people were just normal working class people who had nowhere else to go, genuinely. And do you think part of that is because Labor have turned their back on them? Massively so, yeah. I mean, I'm surprised, honestly, that it's kind of, Labor's got no better.

So it is kind of shocking that the BNP disappeared. I know. So it's kind of shocking that the BMPs kind of, well, disappeared really, and nothing's really properly. placed it yet. You know, there isn't really a big racial nationalist or white supremacist, I should say, movement in the UK, I mean, thank God, but, you know, it could be around the corner. But isn't that because with Brexit, a lot of the concerns that people had about mass immigration, some of it's been addressed?

Were channeled into that, and you had a politician who most people would consider a mainstream politician in Nigel Farage, taking that issue. and delivering... He killed the BNP, yeah. Right. So it was a way of... I mean, and this is what I really want to get into in the second part of the interview is

countering some of this extremism. I mean, part of it clearly is addressing the concern, stop making the far right, right. So it's addressing the concern. So if people had a concern about mass immigration, Brexit tackled that. Partially. I mean, actually, I think in terms of

what the government's doing now, We're probably going to have more immigration than we had before because of the way they've composed the point system. But in terms of perception, I think immigration went massively down on people's list of concerns because it got molded into Brexit. It got folded into Brexit. So now that we've had it, we've kind of, we've pricked that bubble, which I think is why that racialized way of thinking has declined, because people's genuine concerns that at least they feel for the moment are being addressed. But that's the problem is they feel like they've been addressed. If this new immigration system that Boris has put forward doesn't solve the problem or at least look like it solves the problem, we're going to see more problems because Brexit was like a temporary sort of stop valve, you know?

It's going to start bubbling up again. Also another thing that I've seen is I see the logic behind it, but it just sounds bad when Pretty Patel, who I love Pretty Patel, I think she's awesome. I bet you do. That's great. Guilty crush. Not even guilty, man, I love misimprove. A strong, confident woman, deport you in a heartbeat. That's what you want.

Well, you know, she said something along the lines of, I think the policy proposal is that they would encourage people to immigrants to move up north rather than to live in the London area because London's so cramped. I'm sure people up north would love that. I mean, that's the last thing northern voters want and it's the last thing you're expecting from Brexit.

So I think what we're going to see is if Boris doesn't handle this well, then there's going to be a resurgence of something. And if it's not like a stop valve sort of skirt around the issue party like UK it was or Brexit was as an issue, then yeah, something like the BMP, something genuinely extreme, good, you know, rear its ugly head again, if nobody really wants to talk about it. And I just want to tackle this subject because we work, and I say ad nauseum in the wokeest, most liberal. It's not liberal.

If you say it's the wrong thing, then you get destroyed. but a lot of my contemporaries would say Nigel Farage is a far-right politician, he's a Nazi, could you make the case as to what Nigel Farage actually is? Oh, this is a true blue Tory, I suppose. You know, it's one of the reasons why I didn't want to vote from or support him in the first place and why I went to the BMP is because Nigel Farage was just seen as a posh Tory, you know. Like, UKIP were just like Tory, not even Tory Light, maybe even Tory Extra or Tory Max or something, you know. Farage, far right, I mean, he doesn't meet.

the requirements we talk about in all that will make it made up checklist. I don't think he fits the bill at all. He's a Tory. I think this is one of the biggest problems that we've had, and we've had some issues with that recently, where if you keep calling everyone an RTI, if you keep calling everyone far right, if you dilute the meaning of the term,

then people who are far right, who just don't want to be called far right, go, well, there's no such thing as the far right, you're just doing what the leftist do, you're calling everyone a Nazi. Well, if you want to kill Jews and deport black people and whatever else might come on our checklist, or maybe you are a Nazi. Yeah. You know what I mean? And people get triggered when we say that. So I think that the misuse of that term has been a huge problem. Yeah, a huge problem. Absolutely. And it sort of allows people who are genuinely extreme

to operate under the cover of night, you know, if everyone's a neo-Nazi. See, this is another thing that I think conservatives get wrong is whenever I talk about this issue, people assume that I've, conservatives often assume that I've become a multicultural leftist liberal overnight and I'm, you know, I'm a traitor and all this stuff. And it's, well, it's not true. I'm mostly conservative. But it's still problematic. I'm still problematic, definitely. But conservatives seem to think that I've become this leftist liberal overnight and it's like, well, hang on. So everyone is calling everyone a neo-Nazi. That doesn't mean neo-Nazis don't exist. And these conservatives who think that I've become a liberal tell me, Jack, why are you using that term far-right? You know

the far-right doesn't really exist. It's like, hang on a minute. Okay, they might not be in the greatest of numbers compared to Islam. 1930s. Well, yeah, yeah. But it doesn't mean they don't exist. And this is one of the problems that I have with conservatives and it's something I think conservatives can address. It's not something that I think is going to go on forever. I think eventually people will realize is denying their existence is playing

into the hands of the left because that helps them because it makes the right look completely delusional when you're saying no the neo-Nazis don't exist. So yeah, and it's kind of like it's a tactic, I think, for far-left ideologues. They know very well, or at least some of them do, some are just dumb.

But, you know, they know very well that if they call everyone a neo-Nazi, then conservatives are going to be like, oh, well, everyone's a neo-Nazi these days, and they just assume it doesn't exist. And it makes us look completely delusional, which is what allows the left to dominate this narrative on extremism. Right? They control the extremism narrative, and that's really worrying. You know, there's organizations, I'm not going to name names, but there's organizations in the UK that claim to oppose far-right extremism and things like that, and they completely dominate that narrative. and they're the ones that the politicians go to for information about the far right. But it's run by former members of the, and current, apparently,

current members of the Communist Party of Great Britain that came from a communist organization originally. Some of the members doing the research for this organization are extremely far left. And I just find it really troubling and worrying that the only people talking about far-out extremism, most of the time, are far-left extremists. That's crazy. Well, now that we are talking about far-right extremism,

give us a sense of how much of a problem it is numerically because obviously judging how many people are sitting, you know, in their basements on the internet, talking about this stuff is hard. But we have seen what seems like a rise in the number of attacks that are being committed by these people. And one of the things we talked about before is actually you were talking about how in America the majority of terrorist attacks, the relationship, the responsibility. result in homicides are committed by? Yeah, so the, I'll get this mostly right. It's hard for me to remember numbers and not I'm the numbers guy, but people can check it out. The ADL, Anti-Defamation, Lee published this study saying that

most terrorism was far right and blah-y-bladdy-blad-blat. And the ADL being the ADL sort of, they kind of played with the numbers a bit, you know, and other organizations did a similar thing when they released this information. And what they did was they included homicides and violent attacks and things from people who were far-right extremists, but the attack itself wasn't either. ideological, so they might have just beat someone up in the pub.

It's not far-right attack. They might have beaten up another Nazi. Right, yeah, exactly. So what some other people did, I think it was numbers from the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism, something, I think that was the name of the group. They looked at specifically violent, ideologically motivated attacks that resulted in homicide, and they found that 92, 93% of them were far right. That's in America.

Another study from another group found it was about 73%. So the numbers vary, but it's a majority. That's interesting. But again, the other side of it is whenever there's an Islamist attack, more people die. Because they use bombs and things like that. And conveniently, they always start the figures after 9-11. You know, so there's that. In the UK, it's different story.

Actually, the number of terror attacks and ideologically motivated violent attacks that result in homicide being far right. It's kind of low. But I don't think that means we should ignore it because it's increasing and it's more common and you don't always hear about it. A few weeks ago a 16 year old was sent to prison for plotting to murder somebody and finding manifestos in his room and all these things. And it was blatantly neo-Nazi. There's been multiple national action arrests. What happened with Jack Wrenshaw was really scary. There was a guy I knew when I was in the sort of in Liverpool days.

I talked about this again in the book is this guy called Darren, who I remember going for a coffee with once. And he seemed kind of normal. A few weeks later, I saw pictures of him wearing a full KKK outfit and Zieg Heiling. And I think he ended up calling his baby Adolf or something. Like, absolutely crazy. These people exist. They're there. And to their credit, the British authorities are doing a damn good job of stopping these things.

And so I think we need to stop playing this game of comparison. But stop comparing it and saying, oh, well, remember Lee Rigby or remember this Islamic attack? and oh, more people die from Islamic attack. It's a stupid game to play, because all you're doing is admitting that two kinds of, or more than one kind of extremism exists. Let's stop comparing them, and let's just address the fact that it exists in the first place.

And by the way, not just that, the circumstances are ripe even, for this problem to just get bigger. So how do we combat it? Okay, so I think conservatives have a job to do here, but actually I think it's more with liberals. And kind of what you're doing here is part of that solution. So we're not far right.

Well, you guys are kind of good liberals are you in, right? I'm quite enjoying my niche as a Jewish Nazi. It works well for my comedy at least. No, man, I mean, I don't know, the word liberal, just like the word Nazi has been so misapplied. I mean, the people who call themselves liberal now, they're not fucking liberal at all. They're the most illiberal, intolerant people you're ever going to come across,

except maybe the far right. But yeah, I'm... Politically, I think, kind of on the economic questions, I'm in the center. Culturally, I think maybe culturally on some issues, both of us probably lean to the right on the cultural stuff. Yeah, absolutely. But economically, France would be an old school lefty. So it's kind of like that. But yeah, I mean, having conversations about these issues, I think is important.

Is that what you're saying? Well, that's part of it. So I think what liberals need to do is take the mic away from the far left. Because I don't think for a moment that these blue-haired crazy people, in the street are a majority of even left-wing thinking. There's certainly not a majority in society, but they're not even a majority on the left. The only reason they have so much control

is people are terrified of them. I compare them in the book to an unruly dog, like the left of the owners, and they're the unruly dog, and they can't even live in their own home because they're so terrified, it's gonna bite their hands or something. So they just let it be this unruly thing

that just gets worse. And so it's down to liberals to take the mic away from them and say, hang on a minute, that's not us. Yeah, but that kind of takes the power away. Yeah, but how's that gonna happen? I mean, Ash Sarkas on question time every fucking week. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's partly,

it's, the media is certainly a big part of this. Yeah. But I think more people need to start standing up. So like seeing what Andrew Doyle does is, is great. The thing with Andrew Doyle and Titania is that he does it and also, it's like doing it with a smile on his face, you know? It's doing it with laughs and I think that's really powerful.

Seeing Lawrence Fox and more left-wing liberal standing up to this. it's going to be tough because they're seeing why people don't do it you know it becomes very difficult and emotionally draining and it affects your life very much so one thing if you're left is to if you form a BMP it's even worse but you know it's it's going to be difficult but as long as more liberals start taking the mic away from those people that removes a lot of the power and then as a result of that I think the media will have to change once the media starts seeing that

that these people aren't the majority at all. But then when it comes to conservatives, I think the biggest job that conservatives have is they have to admit it exists. The far right, I mean. They have to admit that this problem exists and they don't have to be so defensive about it. You know, they can just say, well, listen,

that's not representative of us, but you know, we're opposed to it too. You know, stop pretending that it doesn't exist or trying to pretend that someone who goes and shoots up to synagogue is actually a liberal socialist just because they believe in hell, like, socialised healthcare. Like, give me a break. It doesn't make, like, do you think you're going to find one of these synagogue shooters at a Bernie Sanders rally?

Do you think that Boris now has a real opportunity with embracing One Nation Toryism, with winning a lot of these former, well, not formal, but working class, former Labour constituencies, to actually really tackle this and hopefully maybe even start to change people's hearts and minds? Yeah, I think he does. but I suspect he won't. And that all boils down to the fact that it's extremely unpopular and difficult to say,

whether people know this term or not, I've been saying it for years, that you are a culturist. You believe in the primacy of national culture. I don't think Boris is going to say that because it's just too, like, it's so annoying because I feel like if a mainstream politician like Boris

actually stood up and said, yeah, we believe in a unique British identity, we believe in British customs and values, and if you're an immigrant moving here, you should adapt to that. If someone says that in mainstream politics, I think that would change everything. And it would become normal, but Boris ain't going to do that. If he does, it'll be great, but I don't think he will. Because he's going to get called a Nazi.

Yeah, he's going to get called the Nazi. But he's, it's got to be, we've got to reach a tipping point, surely, because it's something most people believe. You talk to the average person on the street, regardless of color, regardless of background, and they will agree with it. So, and he's got a majority, he's got a huge majority now. Yeah. Is this not the moment to do it?

It would be the moment, but this is what I'm saying. I don't think he's got the guts. I hope he does, but I don't think he does. And I think what that means is, if the Labour Party can elect someone who's not mental, unlikely. Yeah, you can end that answer that. That is not going to happen for like 10 years. Then, you know, at some point, they're going to be back.

And, you know, the, you know, things will change so drastically that the white working class vote won't even matter anymore. because demographics do change with large-scale immigration fact, and that changes the way people vote. So I think eventually we'll probably just get to the point where working class votes won't matter at all. Yeah, but I don't think that's true at all, man, because one of the things that you saw with Brexit, for example, is a third of ethnic minorities voted for Brexit.

That's true, that's true. So the idea that people are united by their skin color or even their background of immigration is, it's a bit wishy-washy. Like in America, with Trump, for example, given what he's done for those communities in terms of employment and stuff like that, they're going to be actually to some extent a backbone of his re-election campaign. Polls don't suggest that, but we'll see.

I mean, I would hope that. Pauls don't suggest he was going to win either, let's be honest. No, but my point is that just because, you know... I think you're probably right there. I was born in Russia doesn't mean that I'm automatically a massive fan of labor. But I still think it's going to be a minority, because it's very hard in a multicultural society to sort of separate.

I know a Hindu guy who is very much on my wave of politics, but he's totally cast out from his family because it's all they'll be coming for us next. You know, they'll, you know, they say it's just about culture, but they'll be booting us out next and stuff. So there's that fear.

You know, there's a real, of course. Of course. And all the people we've had on the show from ethnic minority backgrounds, they all get cold coconuts and all blah, blah, blah. But I also think that will change too because there's a pushback against now. Because, as you say, the far left has gone so far,

that a lot of people are being driven out of that. And I think it will be okay for people not to be on the far left if they're an ethnic minority. Well, again, that boils down to, I think it's the job of normal left-wing liberals to start speaking out against it. And maybe that would aid that. But I think Boris Johnson, with, you know,

he's got a really diverse cabinet. And I get the feeling that maybe there's a bit of pandering to make it extremely diverse so that he's not attacked for it. I think that has happened, but the people that he's appointed seem extremely capable to me. And so that's a benefit. And I think with that sort of cabinet there, with that diversity of people within the Conservative Party, he's in the perfect position to now come out as a cultureist, you know, and talk about this primacy of national culture.

If he did that, he would reap the rewards of it for decades. You should talk about, you know, decency, post-boxes, all the good British things, letterboxes. I'm going to ask you a human question now. Let's say. A human question. After now, this has been a robotic, but he's going to ask you a human one. But let's say, because we've all had friends, well, we've had friends who maybe have started

to flirt with these kind of ideas, you know, get very angry. What should you do if you have a friend or a family member who you've started to notice deviate to that side of the argument? Oh, good question. You know, I think prevent is really interesting. And from what I understand, they are quite good when it comes to the far right and they do understand. Just tell everybody what prevent is. Oh, sorry, prevent is the government's counter extremism program. It's, you know, intervenes with young people. But they'll only intervene if they're sort of tipped off. And also you don't have to comply with them, which is like, that kind of sucks. You know, I'm not an authoritarian. so I'm not going to force people to comply with them, but at the same time, most people are just going to say, no, thank you.

But when they do get involved, there's some great success stories would prevent, so that's good. You know what would have helped me is, and I can't believe I've not talked about this yet, when I was in the BMP, the media onslaught against me from like the age of 16 or 17 or something, jeez, I mean, that's crazy to experience at such a young age.

And that again, sort of backed me into a corner, which is why I was in it for such, well, a fair few years. And there was an article written in The Telegraph about me, which has since been deleted off the website. I don't know why. Written by a guy called Timothy Stanley. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was like a scathing piece about how awful I was.

But I remember reading about it and thinking, I don't think this guy is actually that wildly different from me. I'm in the BNP and he's not, but the things that I was talking about I felt like weren't too dissimilar from the kind of things that people like him, from the Telegraph, the conservative side of things, we're talking about too.

Looking back, I think if some of those people on the sort of political right, because let's be honest, most people who join the far right are never going to be left wing. Some of them do have this magical transformation and then get very, very nice careers out of being a left-wing counter extremist afterwards, you know, convenient.

But you know, most of these people, most of these young lads are always going to be at least on the right. And I think I will probably at least be always centre of right if some of these people in the conservative right wing circles had reached out to me as a young lad and talked to me about it like this isn't the way to go about things that would have been really helpful because the only sort of older male influence that I had at that point in my life because no none of the men in my family were political they didn't even really know or

care about what I was doing because it was just completely alien if a male conservative figure had reached out to me and talked to me rather than using me as a chance to virtue signal or write a hit piece about me, that would have helped. So I think we need to get to a point where we're willing to forgive monsters. Okay, so I'm not saying if someone goes out and tries to murder Rosie Cooper,

then you should become his best mate or something. But the people that get wrapped up in far right circles, we've got to have some kind of redemption here. Not just redemption, but there needs to be some kind of intervention where people are willing to talk to them about the issues they really care about rather than just mocking them. Because mocking them just pushes them further down that rabbit hole. And when they've got no way to get out, when there's no redemption at all, they've got nowhere

else to go but further right. And when you've got nowhere else to go but further right, you're probably going to end up in really dark corners of the internet. You're going to become depressed. You're going to have no future because you can't get normal work. I certainly can't get normal work. for most people that can be life-ending. So you'm more likely to go out and commit one of these atrocities.

You've got nothing to lose. Nothing to lose. You've got nothing to lose. Now look, the one question before we ask our final question I wanted to talk to you about, is something, again, we discussed before, which is how do you deal with these ideologies in the public space? Because I asked you on the phone, I said, do you remember Nick Griffin going on question time? and the argument that I've been persuaded up by up to this point was, well, he goes in question time.

I guess I think you'd probably say he wasn't treated fairly. No, he definitely wasn't. And I think I'd probably agree with that. They made it the Nick Griffin show, as you put it. They picked on him a lot instead of just letting him contribute on an issue just like any other panelist. But my thinking up until the point that you and I had. that conversation was, well, look, he goes on question time, he sounds like an idiot, next year there's an election, party share plummets, he goes bankrupt, brilliant victory

for free speech. Yeah. Right. But what you said to me was actually the next day, the membership shut up. The membership shut up, the amount of traffic to the B&P website shot up. Yeah, massively. So is there then an argument, I guess, the far left makes, which is by platforming certain people you're giving their ideology oxygen that shouldn't be given.

It's not just platforming them, it's demonizing them. The fact that they made it the Nick Griffin show and they attacked him so much was why people joined and why people went to the website and why people were interested because it was such a blatantly biased show. All they did was you did this, you said that. And yeah, okay, some of the accusations obviously were, I mean, he's done awful things, you know, he was appearing with David Duke and the KKK and all this stuff and so rightly so. There were some other things that were like some people might look at and go, well, isn't he right about that?

You know, we should control immigration. And so when they see that smearing going on, the second part of the three-pronged attack, when they see that happening, they relate to it. And they think, well, sod everyone else, sod the mainstream, I'm going to join them. Membership shut up. There was a point around that time where, at least this was what the BNP was saying, or the BMP webmaster was saying, that actually the BNP was the most visited political website in the world, or political party website in the world. It was huge. It was going to rain for a thousand years.

It was like this website. I remember I had a peak oil section. It had all these membership forums. And the forums were hugely active. Right at the top was a picture of Nick Griffin like this. It was huge. And there was this huge online platform. And question time didn't kill the BMP.

What killed the BMP was a combination of things, really. It was mismanagement from within the party and accusations of corruption. This is the boring stuff that I saw from the inside. what really killed it was Nick Griffin's vanity. He was very much seen as he's got to go because he's got this much baggage and they were at that tipping point where they just won two MEPs, a million votes. They were mainstreaming. We've got to get rid of this dude who's been with the KKK and we've got to get someone

younger in. And that's why they would groom young lads like me because eventually we've become leaders or something. But there were some other contenders in the party who were considered more moderate who were going to sort of take the reins. If that had happened, I think the BNP would still be here, like, genuinely. I think it would still be around, and I think it would have been their competitor to UKIP if they'd have continued down that modernising streak, very much like the National Front in France.

You know, the national rally it's called now with Marine Le Pen. Like, it's amazing how you can turn a party from, you know, being led by a genuine raging anti-Semite to now a mainstream political party that comes second in the presidential elections. Who is his daughter? His daughter, you know. I mean, that's a dream for the Labour Party. Jesus. Does Colby have a daughter?

That's a good one. So, yeah, I think that, I think... All right, so, but answer my point, which is about platforming. Yeah. It's an argument that I, having spoken to you about it, I now I'm like, well, what's the right way to deal with this? Platform them, give platforms.

So platform them and treat them fairly, is what you're saying. Yeah, because people, like, if you don't treat them fairly, then it creates, again, it proves the far right, right. There's a Jewish conspiracy to kill Whitey and, you know, to control dissent against multiculturalism and things like that. And when you kind of do exactly what they're saying is happening, bar the Jew bit, you know, then it proves them right. Have them on TV, let them say their things. But, you know, at the same time, if you're going to platform them, you also need to have politicians in the mainstream who were talking about the issues that working class people care about. So it's not just a matter of platforming them.

It's probably an argument that if you platform them, then it mainstreamed them. right? But if you counter that with mainstream politicians who actually address genuine issues that aren't about hating people because of their race, it's things that affect working class people. Like the changing nature of working class towns and the changing job market in working class towns,

like where I came from, it was a former mining town and now it's like a warehouse town. Everyone worked in the warehouses and stuff. But there was a huge, as I said, Polish immigration that sort of shifted that. When you talk about those issues and then you're mainstreaming like the far right, people are going to go with the mainstream one, and also eventually the far right are going to become insignificant anyway because the mainstream people are talking about it.

It's like don't starve the far right of oxygen, starve them of the issues. When you take away the things that they're right about, they're left with pure conspiracy theory. The only thing they've got left is that, oh God, the, aren't the Jews awful, and they're controlling everything. People don't associate with that because it's not true. Well, it's interesting that you say that because, as you know, we've been dealing with a few people trolling us from the far right. Yeah.

And this is where they're like demanding that we interview that, you know, their favorite neo-Nazi and all this kind of stuff. It's common tactic. Yeah. But I actually, I don't think that it's not about platforming. It's just we're not a show that debates people. Yeah, you're not, you don't owe them anything. And also the reason they say that, what they usually say is they try and like, you know Ben Shapiro, conservative in America.

They always say to him, debate, I don't know, Nick Fuentes or something. like to debate this person, debate this person. It's like, hang on a minute. Ben Shapiro's got this gigantic audience. And then the smaller sort of neo-Nazi crowds. I've got sizable-ish audiences, but we're talking thousands, not millions. Who benefits the most from that debate?

You know, some of these people in the far right are so dumb that you can absolutely destroy them in a debate and they still think they've won. Like, it's crazy. Either they're dumb or they just do it anyway because they know. They are dumb. We were just talking about this.

They have this theory. the Jews have conspired to replace white people with Muslims. Yeah, Muslims who hate... Because the Jews and Muslims really get on. This is the one thing, like, it's so crazy. You know, this is, I always pull them up about that. Yeah. You know, it's, it makes absolutely no sense, but, you know, they, I think a thing with

the far right is it offers, here's another thing, right? So, yeah, okay, to answer your question, you don't owe them anything. You don't need to debate them. And the only reason they propose those debates is because they're the ones who benefit the most from it. and they say they win regardless of what happens. And then suddenly they've got access to Ben Shapiro's millions of viewers. So no.

But also, I think while we're talking about these sort of like Nick Fuentes people, who's, he's like a white nationalist YouTuber before he got banned off YouTube. I think he did he? I hear, I don't, I'm not a massive follower, but I heard something, maybe he's back, I don't know, I don't watch the show. But one thing I think is really interesting is,

he's gaining some young people. not a majority or anything like that. It's nothing crazy, but it's substantial. And I think it's because the far right is perceived to be fun. And that sounds weird. But when, okay, say you're a young lad and you're figuring the world out, right? And you see real world issues about immigration, multiculturalism, you know, you see the Trump agenda is actually countering this crazy far left sort of puritanism that's not very punk. anymore, like the left isn't punk anymore, very much church ladies. And they're always complaining about something and this is sexist and this is

racist and here's what you have to say and you can't say that. So you've got that option or you've got these dudes on the far right who are doing these YouTube shows and laughing about everything. They're having a load of fun compared to those guys. And so when you're faced with these sort of competing factions, these extremist cults, which cult are you going to choose? The one that's telling you what you can and can't say or the ones that says say anything, we don't care. It's hilarious.

Yeah. You know, I don't know how you address that. Well, puritism isn't very attractive, is it? You know, puritanism. It's not that appealing. But look, thank you for coming on the show. We wish you all the best with the counter-extremism work that you're doing. It's a really good book, Monsters of Their Owners of Their Making.

We recommend that you get it and read it. Thank you. Watch your Twitter or the rest of it. Twitter is just Jack Buckby, B-U-C-K-B-Y, website, jackbutby.com. the UK and the book is called Monster of their own making. And yeah, I do hope you'll pick it up. Fantastic. And that's available in Amazon and all good bookstores.

Yep, it's out on April 28th, but you can pre-order it now. Excellent stuff. Well, thanks for coming on the show and we'll see you guys in a week from now with another brilliant episode. Take care. And I'm delighted to find out that after all these rumors, we're not far right. We'll see you next week, guys. How many discounts does USA Auto Insurance offer?

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