TRIGGERnometry - Why I Left "Racially Hostile" Smith College - Jodi Shaw

Episode Date: March 3, 2021

Former Smith College employee Jodi Shaw joins us to talk about why she has spoken out and publicly criticised the college.  Join our exclusive community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin. And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a lifelong liberal who's just resigned from Smith College in the United States, calling it a racially hostile environment. Jody Shaw, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you so much for having me, Constantine and Francis. It is great to have you on the show. I mentioned very briefly your story, but there'll be be a lot of people who might have heard about your case but wouldn't necessarily know anything about you. So why don't you give us a little background into who are you, how are you where you are,

what has been the journey through life that leads you here sitting, talking to us? Well, that's a lot since I'm almost 50 years old. Let me try to break it down for you. I am a lifelong liberal, that is true. And I actually graduated from Smith College in 1990. And then I spent some time traveling and, you know, more of an artistic kind of person. And then it became a professional musician. I lived in New York City for many years. And then I had children and life changed a bit. And I, you know, I needed a job that was, you know, not hustling at 2 a.m.

and hustling for money. So I decided to become a librarian. and I was a children's librarian for a couple of years. And then I moved out of the city. I wanted more space. And so that's what brought me to Northampton originally, which is where Smith College is located. And I'd always remembered Smith as this just really idyllic, amazing place. I mean, the town to Northampton, just super liberal, like Uber liberal. And I thought, wow, that would be a great place to raise my kids. and, you know, it'll be just so wonderful. And I was overjoyed to land a position in the Smith College libraries.

Smith had always been like my secret dream place to work. And so I started working in the libraries. And while I was working there, there was an incident on campus about a year into my position. I was in a temporary position, but I was up for a permanent position. And then while I was there, there was an incident. and this incident, it involved a black student and a white custodian. And the college's response to that really kind of changed things in my mind on campus. And I've confirmed this with other people who have been at Smith longer.

It really, the college, even though the incident, the black student accused the white, a custodian of engaging in racially motivated behavior against her. and the college immediately sprung into action. She was eating lunch somewhere and the white person said you look out of place or something. Is that what happened? Yeah, well, of course, there's a lot more to the story. I mean, this was during the summer and this is a house on campus that students are able to live on campus in the summer, but there's special, there's certain houses that they live in.

And this was not one of them. And there's certain places where students are supposed to eat. and this house was not one of them. This house was actually being used, as many houses are on campus during the summer, for another and outside program. And this house in particular was being used for a summer camp for young children, age five and over. And it wasn't being used to house them. It was just being used to feed them. It was just like lunch, I think. I'm not sure if it was breakfast too. So it was only being used for that purpose. And because it was children using the house, all of the adults in the house also had background checks naturally.

And so clearly this was not the house where the student should have been eating. So that part of the story really got lost at the time because it was touted as a common area on campus. And, you know, why am I not allowed to be in a common area? And then the president came out and said, yeah, students are allowed in all parts on campus. That's not technically true, not during the summer. And so in spite of that fact, the student went into this house and the dining staff person who was working there knew the student and said, oh, hey, you know, hey so-and-so, I didn't know you were in this camp. You know, they kind of said something because even before this, the staff are somewhat reluctant to approach students to enforce rules. because the college has demonstrated even prior to this that they, they're kind of hesitant to back up the staff. So if the staff try to enforce a state law like you need to put shoes on in the dining room,

sometimes that can backfire on them and the student will accuse them of engaging in abusive behavior or even racially motivated behavior. So the staff are already a little tentative. So on this day, the student came in and the staff member said, I didn't know you were in this house. And the student, I already didn't know you were in this camp. And the student said, yeah, and flashed her ID. And the staff member allowed her to eat there because the staff member didn't want to cause any conflict or problems. And then the student took the food and went into the living room, which nobody was using, not even the summer camp, and proceeded to lie down on a couch.

And I think she was looking at an iPad or something. A custodian in his 60s who has bad eyesight and I don't, he wasn't wearing his glasses at the time, looked through this door. I mean, this was, there's so many details to this, which the details alone, if you know them, plus combined with the investigative report, which was 170 pages of documents, it really makes a hard, hard case for anyone to argue that this was racially motivated. And these are staff, long-time staff members who have worked on a campus, which is about half white and half students of color. They've worked with students of color, you know, for years and years and years and years with

no, like this person didn't, never had a problem before. Clearly, this person was out of place. This person was out of place, was unexpected. And so the staff did what they were told, which is if you see something, no matter what it is, if you feel like something's out of place, please call the campus police who are unarmed. And that's what the custodian did. And the student later that evening, and everything seemed fine, the inter, she videotaped the interactions, the, the, the, the, campus police officer who responded actually recognized her as a student, you know, and it was a friendly exchange from what I can tell. And then, but later that night, the student made a Facebook post. This Facebook post is what the college responded to. I mean, the college really went overboard,

profuse apologies, insinuating that it was a racial incident before ever investigating any of the facts and putting into place all these, like announcing its intention to put into place anti-biased. training for staff, not for faculty, for staff, and all these other programs and initiatives and committees and so on and so forth. And this was all before they even did an investigation. And so even after the investigation found there was clearly no evidence of racial bias. The college continued to uphold this narrative that there was, there's horrible racism on Smith campus, and we need all these programs. And the tragedy, the real tragedy of this is, is one, it really created a real rift between staff and students because now staff are

very, they've seen what's happened and they're very afraid because what happened was the student didn't know who called, she couldn't identify the person who called campus, police on her and she was determined that that individual being publicly named. And so she went through the campus directory and pulled out two other people. one of them actually was the dining staff worker were allowed her stay there. She put her picture in her name and the picture in name of another custodian

who wasn't even there at the time on her Facebook page and said here are the people who did this to me. And those people really suffered material harm as a consequence. It was just it's outlined in New York Times article that just came out yesterday. As did the responding

police officer who was terminated eight months later. Now we don't know the exact condition of his termination, but this is a longstanding 35-year employee with a spotless record, a beloved fixture of campus. And so when the staff, the other staff see all this happening, this creates a hostile work environment. So it's against this backdrop that individual acts of racism occurred to me.

So we already have a hostile work environment and it's very racially tense. We've created a tense environment at this point, not we, Smith College. So that's where my story kind of unfold. It's like against all this context. And that's why it's kind of a complicated story because, you know, in people, there was a rap involved. There was a rap. I'm a musician, as I explained. And I was tasked to do a huge performance in front of an engaging orientation from 600, 100.

first year students, it had to be wild and crazy. And how do you convey what is otherwise very boring information? You do a rap, obviously. So, so. That's definitely what I would have done. Yeah. Isn't it right? So it was just obvious, you know? So I worked on this rap for you for months. I mean, it's a huge, it's not just me doing a rap. There's musicians and live musicians. It's an event for 600 people in an auditorium. There were sound people, lights, I needed the Wi-Fi repeaters and there was, it was so much logistics. And this incident happened around a month before the orientation, my presentation was to take place.

And I was told less than a week before the presentation, you can't do the rap. And so I said, well, why? Because you're white. And it might be viewed as cultural appropriation. And they, my supervisor cited the incident between the student and the custodian as the reason. And remember, this was before the investigation had started. So that was the first thing that happened. Jody, before you go any further with the story itself, which I really want to get into, we started by introducing you as a self-described lifelong liberal. And by the way, for our British

audience in America, when they say liberal, generally they mean left wing. It's a sort of weird difference in language between the two countries. But as a lifelong lefty, if we're liberal lefty, if we might put it that way, did you not agree? re-automatically with this way of looking at things that as a white person, you shouldn't be doing raps because it's cultural appropriation? Well, that's a good question. I, when I, when if, you know, obviously my first year at Smith, they were talking about these things. They were talking about systemic racism. They were talking about whiteness. And I was on board. And I thought, you know, I'm not an academic. You know, they must know if there's this thing called systemic racism,

even though I'm not really clear on what that means or I can't really see any evidence of that. Like I understand what racist behavior is, like observable acts of racism when somebody does something or denies somebody an opportunity because of their race. Clearly I know what that is, but the systemic racism, I'm not a little fuzzy on what that is. And the college didn't really explain it fully, but I trusted them. I thought this is an elite institution. it's an academic institution they must know and I was on board. And so even when this incident happened, I remember I sent an email to somebody, I said,

that isn't this horrible, you know, this poor student who's just eating while black. And so then, but then the incident happened to me with the rap, so, or you can't do this because you're white. And I was really confused because I thought clearly this counts as racial discrimination. And yet it was done so. unhesitatingly and without any, and memorialized in an email and even went up to the dean of libraries and she said, no, yeah, you can't do this.

I'm backing this up. And I thought, is this discrimination? I wasn't, I was like, I wasn't sure. And then I thought maybe I'm a racist for thinking this is discrimination, for thinking discrimination against me based on my skin color is discrimination. It was really weird. It was like this horrible turmoil in my head. And clearly it would have been such a coup for my resume to pull this off in a successful

manner in a way that was non-crangeworthy and very unsuccessful, effective. And I wasn't able to do that. And I thought, well, should I report this? Or, you know, and I ended up withdrawing from a job I was applying for because it just felt so bad about all of it. And I didn't, and I felt like, you know, I don't want to be in this environment. Like, this feels very weird. And I, it felt horrible.

And I felt humiliated too because I felt like, gee, am I racist? Because I thought to do this. And now everybody knows how racist and, like, I'm culturally appropriating everything. Like, now the whole campus knows. And it was very confusing. And I thought, for sure, if I filed a complaint that I would never get hired at Smithcott. Like, I would never get a permanent job there. because everybody would know that a white person had filed a complaint.

And so it was a horrible time for me and I agonized over it and I ended up just leaving the libraries and taking a different position. And when I ended up when more things happened and I ended up going to file a complaint, one of the first things I was asked by the officer who is in charge of compliance with the EEO, which is the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. in the states. It's like this administrative procedure for ensuring compliance with, I believe, the Civil Rights Act, like Title VI, Title VII, Title IX of the Civil Rights Act. When I went to her to talk about filing complaint, one of the first things she asked me was, do you believe in white privilege? So that was kind of like, hmm, my fears were founded.

Like, I'm not really supposed to be doing this because I'm white. And then she made other comments like the Civil Rights Act was created to protect traditionally marginalized groups of people. And I interpreted that to me, not me because I'm white. And she said, she didn't have experience in this area. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, because you're white. So there were three, those were three very clear comments that told me, I proceeded with the

complaint, but it was clear that there was, there were much different rules for me as a white person. That's justified by this critical theory, which posits that my position, because of my status and that gets assigned to me as a white person society, I have too much power to ever truly be discriminated against or suffer from discrimination. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality.

the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers. You're spending a third of your life on the thing and most people have no idea what's actually in it. Avocado green mattress is different. Their mattresses are certified organic, built from natural materials designed to actually support your body properly

rather than just hold you in one position until morning. The craftsmanship is real. These are mass-produced objects, someone has put thought into them. I'll be honest. I'm not the person who thinks carefully about where he sleeps. My dating history will tell you that. I'm the person who's been on the same mattress for eight years and called it fine.

But the older I get, the more I notice that fine isn't actually fine. Your body tells you, if you're going to invest in anything for your home, your bed is the one that pays you back every single night. Avocado products are made, not manufactured, and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to this. deliver lasting comfort and support. Go to avocado green mattress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale.

That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. And Jody, I'm listening to this and I'm struggling to get my head around just how ridiculous this all sounds. But this kind of, was this like this when you started? or was it a slow creep where, you know, they start with things like, you know,

diversity quotas, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it went into avert, well, you're white, therefore, X, Y, and Z. Well, I think it went into hyperdrive. I think it was already kind of there. And then it went to hyperdrive after the July 31st, after the incident between the black student and the white custodian.

Like, the campus went into overdrive with all these initiatives and programs. And then... And when was this, Jody? So what... time and date was it, as in what year was it, all the rest of it? So it was 2018. Oh, wow. Okay.

Like from August 2018 and then during the time, until May 2020, we were in this kind of hyperdrive, you know, about race and whiteness and white privilege. And then I filed my complaint in May, my final complaint in May 2020. Good timing. I know, right? And then as soon as I found my complaint, George Floyd was murdered and BLM became very active and we were in the midst of a global pandemic. When staff were told you might get furloughed. And by the way, when we're making our financial decisions at, you know, one of our priorities is our social justice education programs.

So it was, I mean, talk about hyper drive. It went to hyper, hyper, hyper, like hyper squared. that summer. So I filed this complaint and then it got worse. I mean, we were getting emails. Like, I got an email from my director, like inviting just to the white people in the department. Like, I'm inviting all of us white people to meet to talk about how we can support our colleagues of color. I got an email, I believe, from the president saying white people are especially responsible for dismantling racism or systemic racism, just more of the white, white, white, white, whiteness rhetoric and I started becoming a little more assertive or a little more aggressive at that

point and I started sending emails and asking for definitions because clearly we were using different dictionaries at this point. By this point I well understood that my definition of racism was not consistent with Smith College's definition and nor was my definition of what I think of with equity or especially inclusion. So I started asking for definitions and I wasn't able to get those. Instead I I got like referred to Ibr Max Kennedy's book. I got sent an essay called Me and White Supremacy. It is one of my favorites as well. It's a classic.

It's a nice balanced reading list. It's what you want, a little bit of everything. Yeah, it's a classic. Yeah, so it just got work. I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh my gosh, I just found this complaint. And it's just like,

and so. Yeah, it was a rough time to be a known, not agitator, but a person within my department who started questioning this stuff in this climate was very difficult. I can imagine. And then as it progressed, I read the letter that you wrote, you said that your position became more and more untenable. Can you go into a little bit of what that involved in how you were made to feel, et cetera? Yeah, so there were some things that happened. It was a very, you have to understand more context.

Everything's about context, right? And that's why simply reducing people to skin color makes no sense, because there's so much context involved in life, right? I mean, everything is, you know, as comedians, everything's context. So we were in the middle of a global pandemic. So in March, we were all. sent home. We were all sent home. We were all working suddenly remotely. There were no processe. You know, all of these yearly processes, well-established communication channels and workflows were

completely interrupted. And we had nothing. We had to rebuild. It was so very confusing. Nobody knew what was going on. We weren't sure if the college was going to, I mean, the students were sent home. We were trying to get them home. I mean, I was working at the residence life department at the time. So, like, we were trying to get these students home and they couldn't get flights because everything was shut down. It was complete pandemonium. And so during this summer, it got worse because the race stuff kept coming at us even in spite of all this. I mean, I couldn't believe it. It was almost like that was the priority over all of this other mess that was happening, you know, through no fault of Smith that there was a global pandemic. But I just couldn't believe that they were still pushing that, that

this was the biggest priority. And they issued this document called Toward Racial Justice at Smith, which then had further outlined further initiatives, including something about equity being tied to perform, like pay. It was like something about pay. We're going to be evaluating pay structures according to registers of identity. And I thought, well, that sounds reasonable. Yeah.

I'm from the Soviet Union. We tried it. And it worked out fantastic. You're from where? From the Soviet Union. That's where I was born. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Wow, I would love to hear about your experience there. Yeah. Well, do you talk about it? Let's just sum it up by saying we tried something very similar and the results were terrific. So, let's just, yeah, you know, from each according to his ability and to each nothing, that's how that works. But, hey, Constington.

Yeah. Are you tired of all those typical meditation techniques that leave your masculinity wanting more? Yeah, I've tried them all. Mindfulness, Zen, Transcendental. And I still feel like my life is lacking. Well, maybe you should try Marty's Minute Meditations. Minute Meditations. Is that a pun?

Yes, it is. That's right, with a comedic and mystical, Marty's Minute Meditations podcast. can all discover how to save our sacred masculine from our toxic modern cells. I swear to God, I'm trying to be days. The podcast is available from wherever you get your podcast, and you can also visit the website, www.w.martiesminitminatations.com. That's martiesminutemeditations.com.

Might as well get a be there while you're there. Do you have a website, or do you plan to have a website? Well, if you do, then EasyDNS are the company for you. EasyDNS is the perfect domain name, registrar provider and web host for you. They have a track record of standing up for their clients, whether it be council culture, de-platform attacks, or overzealous government agencies. Enoes a bit about that. So will you in a second.

EasyDNS have rock solid network infrastructure and incredible customer support. They're in your corner, no matter what the world. throws at you unless it's your ex-girlfriend, in which case you're on your own. You'd know about that. Move your domains and websites over to EasyDNS right now. All you've got to do is head over to EasyDNS.com forward slash triggered and use our promo code, which is of course triggered as well, and you will get 50% off the initial purchase. Sign up for their newsletter, access of Easy that tells you everything you need to know

about technology, privacy and censorship. You know what? You know, you're handling it very well. You know, people weren't realize this, but you are in the middle of a news storm right now. There's articles about you. People are talking about the issue. And it seems like you, you know, whatever comes out of this, you will hopefully be landing on your feet. But I imagine it's not been easy. And probably the time that you spend there, particularly before you decided to start speaking up, you would have felt a bit, you know, discombot. Not a bit. a lot, discombobulated and sort of out of place.

And, you know, I imagine that for someone like you, who's had these liberal, lefty views your whole life, this must have been kind of shattering to your whole identity in some way. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, I did, I felt very alone. I mean, of course, there was whispering in hallways. I mean, I was not the only one feeling this. But nobody ever would talk about it and aloud in a meeting.

I felt very isolated. And I felt you feel like an orphan, like a political orphan, really. And there was like a strong pull, not before I made the video, but after I made the video from conserved really good people on the right. And which, but I and even a lot of people approached me said, I used to be liberal now I'm on the right. And the thing is, like, I think it's, I made a decision early on to kind of stand my ground that this is illiberal. And this kind of behavior that's going on to Smith College is illiberal. It is a very dogmatic and rigid ideology and it's authoritarianism.

And I decided I'm, I'm a liberal. You know, I, and when talking about policy, I very much am a liberal. Like financial policy, social policies, I'm a liberal. So I'm not going to get pushed out. I'm not going to get pushed out of the left. I think this ideology needs to be put in its place. And I think it's really important in the states, you know, we're so, I imagine there as well. I think I know there as well. Very, so polarized. And I think that it's almost a luxury to have political ideal. or to be still having policy debates in the face of authoritarianism.

When authoritarianism comes to town, no matter what side it comes from, like we know it came from the left this time, it doesn't matter what side it came from. It's here now. It's here now. And so it's like being able to still like say, well, I'm the liberal or I'm on the right. It's almost like that's a luxury of a functioning democracy to be able to have those arguments. We're not even like talking about. We're not even talking to each other anymore.

We're not, I don't think we are a truly functioning democracy. And I don't mean perfectly functioning. But I mean, I'm willing to set aside my strongly held viewpoints on certain policy issues and social issues in order to band arms with people and walk into this together. Because it's going to take a lot of us, I think. And so I don't know. I feel like it's important for us to try to, I think it's going to take all of us. And that's what authoritarianism does. It makes, especially people on the left, like, so afraid of being aligned with the right or seen or guilt by association.

And I get that fear because so many on the left just immediately right, like you off. Very early on after we made the video, I went on Tucker Carlson. and I don't know if you know Tucker Carlson. I've been on the show. It was very helpful to my left-wing credentials. Yes, exactly. So, I mean, the message doesn't change, but you're seen with Tucker. And it's like, that stuff really bothers me.

Because I just think it's so shallow. It feels so shallow to me. But it's a reality. I know. But that's part of how I think this authoritarianism works. And it's like keeping us, especially on the left. I mean, there's just so much fear. People on the right, like, they, they know this has been gone on for a long time.

A lot of them are like, I saw this 10 years ago. And or like people like you who've come from, you know, communist regimes. Really, I've had a lot of contact with people like you, Constantine, who are like, holy, like alarm bells, alarm bells, alarm bells. And it's really the people on the left that need to, they need to, I don't know, we need to get some moral courage here, folks. We really need to, I don't know, it doesn't have to be making a video like I did, but we got to do something because this is consuming us. And it's consumed Smith College. and it made my life really, really difficult.

It's very hard. There's a special kind of psychic damage that occurs when you're living in this kind of, working in this kind of environment in which you're lying to yourself and because you have to, because if you don't, it's like you have to convince yourself that it's okay. It's like a paramorality. And it's, that's not only damaging to yourself, but it kind of, it disables. something in us, it undermines this morality in us that we need to connect with others authentically. And I think when we're not able to connect with others authentically, when we

get dehumanized, which I think is what's happening, or we dehumanize others, then we're capable of doing very bad things to each other. That's a very, very powerful point because you use that you see the words that people use against people, you know, not only like you, but against us, some people who think differently. And it is dehumanizing. One thing that I really want to ask is why has the universities, and particularly the universities in America, provided such rich fertile soil for this kind of nonsense? I think it's where this...

I don't know. You know, there's a lot of theories about that. I'm not an academic, but I think Michelle Foucault has something to do with it. They keep saying that. That's what I've heard. And I even heard somebody said, you know, it was just a kind of he developed this whole other moral universe to kind of justify his lifestyle, basically, which is kind of this, I get the sense that it was somewhat hedonistic lifestyle. Like everything's relative and, you know, there's no absolutes or no objective truth. And therefore, there's no morale and real morality. It's everything subjective. which is astonishing. I mean, if that's true, that somebody, you know, who just simply justifying a lifestyle of, like,

not really having any objective morals has now spread rampantly throughout society. But as far as why, you know, the colleges, I mean, I don't know. You'd have to ask an academic about that. Like the Marxist, cultural Marxism or racist struggle as opposed to class struggle, all that. But we've talked about that plenty on the show. But it's interesting. I didn't know anything about Foucault's personal life. But it sort of makes sense now.

I'm not cheating on you, darling. It's just an alternative lifestyle. It is. Right. Is this bad? Is this good? We don't know. We don't know.

Let's not ask any questions. Yeah. So let's just carry on and make dinner, please. She's the third one this month. Anyway. Monogamy is a power is oppressive. Exactly. And yeah, I couldn't agree with you more there all of a sudden.

But listen, let me ask you this, because I think this is a question that some of your detractors might be keen to hear, and I wanted to give you a chance to address it in a non-hostile environment. Because, look, there's a lot of people who are like you, who are in institutions which have become completely captured by this mindset, who are constantly hearing about toxic whiteness, toxic masculinity, all this sort of stuff. but they don't speak out. And it strikes me that you've been, you know, quite bold and courageous in speaking out against it. Have you been radicalized into this somehow? Have you been secretly watching, I don't know, Jordan Peterson on the sly or whatever it is that people apparently get radicalized? How did you summon up the fortitude to start actually taking action on this? Jordan Peterson was involved No I mean I became interested

I don't know how I became interested in Jordan Peterson But I haven't listened to him that much It was a few years ago He said something that really struck me about not lying About telling the truth And about how much it hurts when you don't tell the truth How much you damage you cause to yourself And I thought I think because I was really hurting

I think this was when I was hurting at Smith And I thought I think that's why I'm hurt I think it's because I'm lying to myself. Like I'm not. And so, yeah, I did watch some Jordan Peterson. And I did start seeking out alternative viewpoints because that part is, I think that part's critical. Because remember when they say, oh, you can't do the rap. I was like, is this discriminating?

I don't know. Am I racist? Like, because you get told, like, if you resist these ideas, then somehow. that's your white fragility and that's, are you seeking to uphold these power structure, which is white supremacist? So in other words, it's a form of racism, right? It's you're doing something bad. And so like that little voice that tells you something's wrong, something's wrong. You try to like squelch it. And that's so damaging. And so I had to validate that myself in some way. And I had to find, like, know for sure that I'm not.

crazy and I'm not racist. And so in order to do that, I had to kind of get outside the bubble a little bit and seek and go places where, oh my God, no good liberal is supposed to go. You know, that's what I've, because I've been in this bubble telling me, oh my God, like, you can't that person's white supremac. And I found out, wow, Jordan Peterson's not a sexist, misogynistic person. He's actually really good person and really thoughtful. And like, he really thinks about this stuff a lot. And he's very concerned. And that's when I started, when I started getting validated, then I started getting stronger. And it still took me a long time to build up the courage.

And it also took some things happening to me at Smith, where they really pushed me over the line. And they made it unacceptable so that I had to file a complaint. So it was a combination of those things. And that's what I think we're really missing. And I think what Helen Pluckrose is doing with Counterweight is so spot on because she provides a community. Because I think most people on the left, I'm talking mostly on the left or really anybody who they know something's wrong. But they're not really quite sure what it is because they're like, well, this is good though. This is, you know, I'm anti-racist.

And, you know, I'm seeking racial justice. That's good thing. That's what I want. I mean, there's very few people who. would argue that that's not a good thing. And yet something about it doesn't feel right, but they're not sure and they're told that that little voice is bad. So then you try to push it away. And I think the validation part, like being able to talk to other people and establish that you're not crazy and racist and you're not alone is so critical to people building up their moral

courage. And right now it's very hard to find each other. We don't have any like places. The all the, most of the institutions have been captured on this, on the left for sure. They've, there's no, like, aside from whispering in hallways, there's no like a meeting ground. There's no third space. And so that's why what Helen's doing is so brilliant because she has a community of people where you can go in and it takes a while. It's not just like you talk to somebody once. You're like, oh, I knew. Oh, okay, I'm not crazy.

It's a process. It's like a deprogramming. Like there's stages. And I still noticed even after starting making the videos, I still had some thought stuff going on, like this internal policing. And I still have that a little bit. Like, yeah, I got to be careful what I'm saying. And I can't decide if that was always there or if it's a result of this. But I know that people need the validation and they need to know other people who are liberal.

That's the other thing because there's no trust for anyone on the right. they need it and that's why I made very clear my first my first video that I'm a lifelong liberal because I wanted people to know that I am also a liberal if you're watching this near liberal and this is this is not good and chody doesn't it doesn't it make you upset what's happened to the left because I once considered myself to be on the left and you know the the fact like I was a school teacher everybody who regularly watches it drinks you know I devoted 12 years in my life to working with underprivileged kids.

That's what I did. And the moment you come out and criticize, you know, you're all right. And you just think there's something deeply wrong with that political side of the argument if this is what we're descending into. Yeah, I know. I'm really concerned. I think there's, I think we've been... Way to cheer up, mate.

Jesus Christ. I think there's this dehumanization process. Like I said, like, where it's just totally okay to be, I mean, there's no, there's such little empathy involved because we're not focusing on individual people anymore. Now we see the danger of moving away from the individual and categorizing people by groups because then they don't become, they kind of lose their humanity. They become like a herd or a mob instead of a person. And then it becomes easy to just be mean and write them off and do things that have real

material consequences for their life, such as in the what happened at Smith College on July 31st, 2018. It's, it, it really concerns me a lot. And I think it concerns you guys a lot too. You're right to be concerned because I know that you speak from personal experience about Smith College, but actually what you're describing is in all probability happening on almost every college campus in the United States and to some extent in the United Kingdom and in many other parts of the West. So it's not an isolated incident. This is one of the things that would be great for people to take away from this conversation. This isn't just the thing that happened to you. This is happening everywhere. And at every college, there's someone in your former position waiting to speak

out. And you know, you talk about people being encouraged and emboldened by, you know, understanding that they're not alone. That's why we were so keen to have you on the show, because I think this won't end until people like you are given the opportunity to reach an audience until people like you land on their feet. Because let's talk about the fact that you've resigned and you refused their settlement, which was requiring you to stay silent and not speak about this. Is that correct? They offered me a settlement. Yeah, I mean, it's not unusual for a settlement to require a non-disclosure agreement. Sure. And why would Would that be a sort of admission of culpability on their part to some extent or not?

I don't know. I don't know the legalities of that. I don't mean legally. I mean, do you think that they were just, you were sort of a nuisance or they genuinely recognize that if you continue to pursue your complaints, it would lead somewhere? I don't know. It's hard for me to speculate because, I mean, any number of things could be happening. Like maybe they suspected I would file a claim.

and they didn't want me to do that. They didn't want to be just not because necessarily they thought they would lose, but just because they didn't want to have the expense of that. Or maybe they don't want the publicity anymore. I mean, there's any no... And why didn't you accept the settlement? Because you need money, right? Yeah, that was really hard.

I talked to a lot of people that week. A number of factors went into my decision-making. And then it came down to a dream in the end. I didn't want to be in a position where if somebody else at Smith College, for example, managed to screw up, went through the same process I didn't manage, or else something happened to them and they were forced to be public, that I would not be able to speak up and support them, even if I was no longer at the college.

I did not want to be in that position. So that was one thing. I also I don't see a whole lot of other complaints on the horizon there's a complaint in Nevada right in the state of Nevada right now Gabrielle Clark is suing a charter school

her and her son for a similar stuff she's actually black and her son is half black but he has blonde hair and blue eyes so he was made to talk about his white privilege I believe

Fuck me. Yeah. Jesus Christ. So she's suing, she's very brave. She's standing up. She's suing the school. And I, I'm just, was concerned that if I disappear, I mean, this is how they do it. I mean, anytime somebody gets up, they, you know, somebody who has very little money, like me or anybody, you know, any other lower level worker.

it's like I would you know for not that much I mean in my case it well I don't want to talk too much about the settlement negotiations but if you can't talk about something then you you can't do anything about it and even though I would be able to talk about it in general I just felt like it was really important that I'd be able to continue to speak out about Smith and that I not give up any potential legal claims. Because I don't see, I had thought, I really thought about this. I thought, well, maybe, like, other people will bring claims and I can just take the settlement and just be comfortable and be okay.

I mean, I was so exhausted by this point, like, so incredibly exhausted. And it would have been so great. And I thought, maybe other people will, you know, fight this. And I was like, but what if they don't? You know, like, I thought, I'm going to make this video. all these other people at Smith are going to stand up. Well, no, all the people I'd been whispering to in the hallways all disappeared. Like, they evaporated. And I thought, oh, my gosh, they don't want to be associated with me. I thought, I'm going to create this movement at Smith College. And that didn't

happen. And, I mean, it happened more on a national level, which was great. But I thought, geez, people are like, and I understand it. I was like, this could be it. I mean, I don't know. I just didn't want to give up in the end. And then I had a dream and I woke up and I thought, oh, I understand it's comfort or freedom. The freedom to keep discussing this and possibly having no income and huge legal fees or comfort. No legal fees and total comfort for a while. And I chose freedom. And I really. I made a video about that. I really stepped off a cliff because I had no idea. I knew I had some support already from the video and I thought, well, surely people will help me fund this. But I didn't know if they would. And so I was taking a huge leap of faith and I was kind of very Jordan Peterson-esque. Like just tell the truth and trust, just do the right thing and trust that it will work out. And so that's really what happened. And so far, so good.

So far, so good. And what advice, Jody, would you give to people in who are in a similar situation to you, who are experiencing the same things who have got their own struggles with this? Yeah, I think I say the first thing to do is find at least one other person. And maybe you already have one other person. So if you have one other person that you can talk to about this, honestly, honestly, and that gets it. and that you can continue to talk to on a regular basis to work it out because you're going to have

doubts. They creep back in. You're like, well, maybe I am racist or maybe I am. Like, you've got to work that stuff out. It takes a while. And then if you already have one person, find one other person. And now you have a group. Now you have three people. And then you need some kind of infrastructure. So like a Facebook page or, you know, private one or a Discord server, even better, because that's more private. some way to gather more people. And I've said this before and I realize what I'm actually giving the blueprint for is a grassroots movement. But I think on a person, so that's more of a broader political thing or a broader mobilization. But on a personal level, I think it's really important to have somebody you can talk to about this because otherwise it will, if you are alone dealing

with this in your head, it is, it is, it can drive you crazy. It can, really, that's my experience. And that's my experience talking to other people who are struggling with this, too. That it's just relentless, physical symptoms, can't sleep. It's just, it, it's just really. And I've been reading about people from the Soviet Union, too. Like, I actually posted a quote that it drove some people crazy and some people committed suicide. Is that true?

Well, when you, it's true. And actually, the other thing is, and I'm sure they'll start. doing this in the West as soon as they possibly can, they would put people into mental institutions for challenging the Soviet narrative. So if you don't subscribe to the idea that, you know, you're racist, well, that's a sign of mental illness. Let's stick you in a mental hospital. And, you know, as I say, I'm sure we'll get there very soon. Thanks, mate. Yeah. Well, you'll be the first one in there, mate, with my support, frankly. But, you know, it's a weird one. But you talk. You talk about.

about the Soviet Union and you mentioned Jordan Peterson, this is one of the things that he often quotes when he's talking about the importance of telling the truth, he's actually quoting Solzhenitsyn who talked about the fact that every time you tell a lie, a part of you dies. Yeah. Yeah. And every time you listen to a lie and you don't challenge it, a part of you dies. And very quickly, if everyone does that, you very quickly end up in a society where everyone is lying to each other all the time. And I think I'm sensing that that is really what you came up against your own unwillingness to lie repeatedly over and over.

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I think it's it. There were many times when I thought I was defective. Like there are many, you know, my mom was like, I don't understand it. Like nobody else has a problem with it. Just go along with it, you know? And I don't know what it is about me that I think maybe it's my artistic background or, you know,

and I'm an introvert and I don't know, but I do think other people feel it. I don't think it's just me. Oh, they do feel it. Yeah. I think they feel it. Yeah, of course they do. And that's why people watch, you know,

they watch our show and they go, thank you for keeping me sane this last year. Because for many people, it's the only place they get to hear a different set of views that are based much more in facts and statistics and research and whatever. And you can have a sensible conversation about, is there racism, is their structural inequality. And there is some truth to all of these things.

There is a kernel of truth that has now been inflated into a larger thing that has taken on a life of its own. And as you said, it makes it difficult to have actual conversations about the actual issue when you're forced to subscribe to these completely false narratives. Yes, which then makes it impossible to address the issue. Right. To address the problems when you cannot talk about the problems in an honest manner, part of the problem in talking to each other is that this ideology is that we have certain tools

that we use in Western society. It's called enlightenment values that we use to determine what is true. We have logic, reason, evidence. the scientific method, you know, we have agreed, it's kind of implicitly as a society that we're going to use these tools. And so when we talk to each other, we say, well, I think this and here's why. Here's my evidence and here's my argument. And the other person says, well, this is what I disagree with you and here's why. And then you assess each other's arguments based on the evidence and the logic and the reason, right? Well, this ideology would have us believe that those tools in and of

themselves are tools of white supremacy and therefore are not valid. And so that makes it impossible for us to even have a converse, to even determine, we're not even using the same tools. So let alone have this using the same definitions of words. That's already gone too. But if we cannot even agree on what tools we're going to use to have the discussions, then we can't have discussion at all. And then, you know, you immediately get written off based on who you are. You know, like, oh, I didn't like that book. Well, why not? Because the author is X color and has no writing it. It's like, well, what about the book? Like, was it good? You know? So that's the problem. That's a major problem I see in keeping us from being able to talk about things. And as you know,

that's how we make social progress. We talk. It's intellectual freedom. And in, freedom of speech. And Jody, are there any regrets for the course of action that you took? Is there not a part of you that looks back at your former life where you unfortunately had to keep your mouth shut, but you were at least comfortable, et cetera, et cetera? You mean, is there a time in my life where I kept my mouth shut and was comfortable? No, is there a part of you the regrets standing up for what you've believed in? No.

No. In fact, although I had some doubts, when I made the video, there was a big, huge sense of relief. I thought, I'm out. I mean, it must feel like people, I mean, I think about, you know, my relative of mine was a gay man and he was not out for most of his life. He's, you know, older. and he came out when he was close to 70. And he lived, you know, life. He had a wife. And he was so happy when he came out. And I just think, wow, like all those years, I mean, he didn't talk about it. But I thought, that must have been really tough. And so I think as with anyone who's living a lie or trying to lie themselves or convinced themselves that they're not actually what they really are.

there's a huge relief in finally admitting that and being very public about it. Like, this is who I am. Like, and then letting the chips fall. And, yeah. And for me, it really was a decision of the damage that was being caught that I was feeling by not saying anything became greater than what I imagined the potential damage would be from coming out. And so... Was there not a small moment just before you were about to publish a video where you thought,

if I cross a Rubicon. I can't remember, to be honest with you. No, I was pretty determined by that point. Kind of a lot has happened since then. Jody, listen, before we ask you our last question, tell everybody how they can, where they can follow you online, if they can support you in any way. We really would like people to show the support and keep in touch

with you and follow what you're doing. Oh, yeah. So I have a website where I'm now collecting everything. It's Jody shaw.net. Jodyshah.net. And then, of course, there's the GoFundMe, which is now over the amount I had originally hoped to collect. And anything extra, let's keep it going because those are going into an escrow or a trust. I'm not sure I need to talk to a lawyer, but to help other people who are in these kinds of environments and I want to give them a better choice than signing the NDA for like a little comfort versus being able to take legal action or keep talking about it. I just want to give people a better choice than that. And I think that's a big barrier to people standing up because they don't have money for a lawyer. So it's legal fees for people that want to do that.

So that's just go fund me. It's like help Jody with legal and living expenses. But it says on there what over 150 is going to go to. We'll put the link in the description, which leads us to our final question, Jody, which is what do you think is the one thing that we as a society are not talking about that we actually should be? Oh, I feel like I'm supposed to come up with something really brilliant here. You are. Shoot, no, okay.

The best move for you in this situation would be just to be with a straight face go, Toxic whiteness. I think we should be talking about, I'm going to go with the honest route. I think we need to be concerning ourselves very quickly with developing some mental health tools to, if this thing turns around, which I hope it will, and if it doesn't even, but we're going to need some help because there's going to be a lot of mental health issues, I think, unfortunately, from this kind of thing. And I'm really worried about that for people. And also, I think we should be talking more about how middle-aged white women are perfectly capable of doing a very amazing rap.

We'll get that to the top of the agenda someday. Jody, thanks for coming on the show. And yeah, thank you for watching, guys. Please check out our episodes. They always go out on Wednesday and Sunday. Sunday, 7pm UK time. And most importantly, go follow Jody Online and support her fundraiser. We'll see you again very soon.

Take care. Good night.