TRIGGERnometry - Why I Left The Mainstream Media - Andrew Gold

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

Andrew Gold is a journalist and YouTuber. A former TV presenter, Andrew produced documentaries focussing on bizarre and controversial subcultures. He now hosts conversations on his YouTube channel @andrewgoldheretics and has written a book about cult ideologies and secrets, available here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CG6SNM6F/ SPONSORED BY Fum - Head to www.tryfum.com/TRIG and use code TRIG to save an additional 10% off your order today. We are proud partners with GiveSendGo - a world-leading crowdfunding platform that believes in free speech. Go to givesendgo.com and raise money for anything important to you. The German paedophile experiment: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/26/the-german-experiment-that-placed-foster-children-with-pedophiles Become a Premium Member to receive exclusive benefits https://triggernometry.supercast.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube: @xentricapc Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

They wanted to be replaced with somebody, anyone from a minority background. And I was just like, well, obviously not, because I'm a journalist. And how insulting to the person from the minority background to be told, well, you're a token. The arrogance and the way they just sort of decide this person can't have a career because of how they look and this person can. So I did say to this guy who was one of the producers or whatever, you know, I'm Jewish. And he just started laughing. Why do you think he was laughing?

Because he probably subscribes to the view that Jews rule the media. I'm done accepting that this is a... way that we talk about different groups. And we're not going to put up with this shit anymore. Hey guys, Trigonometry needs your help. We took a big risk creating the show and for us to keep doing the incredible work that you all love, we need your support. That's the only way we're going to stay independent and create content that you won't be able to find anywhere else. There is no other podcast where you'll hear interviews with Nigel Farage one week and the next week you've got Aaron Bastani, the founder of Left Wing Show in Navarra Media, on the same platform.

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description or find the link on your podcast listening app to join us. Support us and help change the way we have conversations and make the world saner. Andrew Gold, welcome to Trigonometry. Good to have you on the show. We have so much to talk about. You used to work in the mainstream media. Now you do your own thing like us on here on YouTube. And there's a lot to talk about, including some recent events, Nihalath and a Yaki, and a bunch of other stuff that's happened to you as well. Before we get into all that, who are you? Yep, Andrew Gold. I made documentaries in the sort of Louis-Therun mold trying to aspire to that kind of thing with exorcists and UFO. and meeting weird and strange people.

I got told after some time that I had to be behind the camera and no longer present my own ideas and journalistic work. Happens to all of us, mate. Far the time is undefeated. Man, it was horrific though. And yeah, replaced.

They wanted me replaced with someone, anyone from a minority background. Anyway, so that made me start a YouTube channel and get going from there. And that's, I suppose, who I am. Well, that's really interesting, not least because the very conversation I playfully joked about

now is obviously a big part of everything that seems to be happening in the media and frankly elsewhere as well. What was your experience? You say you were basically, you needed to be replaced with somebody who's a minority. You yourself, by the way, are from a minority background. So that's kind of interesting. We'll get into that as well. Talk to us about what happened. Yeah. So I was, right, we made this exorcist film after trying to push it to the BBC for ages. I don't have a divine right to be able to sell documentaries to the BBC or anything like that. But I made it with a friend, basically. Typically, it costs £100,000 or something to make a documentary like that.

But we made it with nothing. Like, not even £100 or anything. We just went and did it. We learned as we were doing it because we were so obsessed with the idea of making this film. We made it. It won Film Festival Awards, and it took two years to pushing the BBC, pushing, pushing, pushing, getting told a lot, I looked a bit too much like Louis Theroux,

for them to even want to watch it. but okay and eventually someone said look if I watch it will you stop you know just leave me alone and I was like

yeah please please please just watch it please just watch the film they watched it BBC and they took it didn't pay me well they paid us six thousand pounds

when you compare that to sort of the Gary Linneker money millions that they're getting we made this whole film and they were just like take it or leave it and they wanted changes

and things like legal checks and things that were going to cost a lot more than six thousand pounds so we ended up in debt to get this film away and we made them aware of that and they just didn't care. That was really frustrating because the BBC has this image

or it prides itself in helping new young talent to get to a good start and they pretty much did everything they could to not help me and David, my director, to do that. Film went out, did really well, well received, celebrities were watching it and saying, it was a great moment, you know, I would say I was really happy. It actually made me depressed, but that's a whole other thing. When you finally get what you want, you're like, oh, you know, you want to sort of show your teachers. And the teachers are all dead by now. And that's it. So...

At least something to celebrate. Yes. Anyway, but the films are I'm excited at this point. It gets into 2018's best of the BBC list. It was a whole big thing. I was so excited and happy in that respect. And then it's like, okay, let's go and talk to the producers. What's next?

I had loads of ideas. I speak five languages. I thought if I'm going to try and do something similar to what Louis Theroux had done, and for those outside the UK, he's, you know, journalist who looks at weird and strange. subcultures. I want to be able to do it in different languages. I want to be able to investigate in Spanish or German and go meet these weird strange people that other presenters don't have access to because it's such a competitive genre and you need to

have something more than everyone else if you want to have a chance. So I spent years learning languages living in different places to do this and I had stories from around the world. Like mad stories you wouldn't believe just mad things that are going on that are just bonkers and I took them to the BBC. They loved them and we're sitting there they're going oh wow wow this is a People are being made to stand in Ant Hills because they've committed adultery in Bolivia. It's like, yeah, they're crazy. And they were just very lukewarm.

They wouldn't necessarily say what the problem was, but they were like, okay, let's talk about it. Why don't you speak to these production companies? Because they act as intermediaries. You get the production company in the middle, TV channel, and me. When I spoke to production companies, I had an agent by this point. My agent set me up with about 50 to 100 production companies over a period of five years. Every single one of them, I'm not talking about 1990. I'm saying 100% of them.

At some point in the meeting, while everything's going very well, jovial, you're going to, oh, this is great, love these ideas. Said, unfortunately, to get this to the BBC or Channel 4, which in many respects is even more vehement with their not wanting white people, you would have to be from a minority background. So are you going to be okay with being behind the camera and we would have a journalist from a minority background in front? And I was just like, well, obviously not, because I'm a journalist and I investigated these things for years. I learned the languages. I built the relationships with Bolivian indigenous people who are putting people in anthills. I went and spoke to them to get this story.

I'm not going to like just let some... And how insulting to the person from the minority background to be told, well, you're a token. Come and look at this Bolivian, whatever. So that's what happened. It was very painful and sad and upsetting because I was on minimum wage at the time. I was scrapping as most sort of media people are until they take off or whatever it is. You're really scrapping to, you know, how am I going to get money for the next food on the table?

I'm living in all these different places trying to get store. together. And it was a difficult time. Yes, I could have just got a job anywhere, you know, in a shop. I was working, but the only way to make this sort of dream of making TV work was to do things like copywriting online and things like that, which it doesn't pay very well. So every time I got a knockback, every time I thought, okay, this is the time, this person doesn't seem to care that I'm white. Wow, amazing. Eventually it came up down the line. You know, if they didn't say it, the next person they spoke to was like, yeah, it can't be him, unfortunately. So that's what happen. That is so depressing. That is so, so, so depressing. Because what is actually saying is,

the calibre of your work doesn't matter. Your talent doesn't matter. What matters the most about you is your skin colour. Well, and also that's why it's typically not creative people who make these kinds of decisions. It's the people who are the gatekeepers of creativity, which is so sad. So I'm sitting in meetings with people who have zero creativity, who have never in their lives try to go out on a limb and make something and do something, who have come out of university and somehow been giving these jobs as, as I say, gatekeepers. The arrogance and the way they just sort of decide this person can't have a career because of how they look and this person can.

And they seem to not realize that it actually involves talent. You know, it's not easy to do. I mean, Louis Thu is a good. He's a good example. He's very good. People watch him because he's very good. There's a reason people aren't watching the BBC very much anymore. Because a lot of the people on there aren't very good because the creative people,

the people in charge of who can be on have lost sight of what is the most important thing in making TV shows, which is actual talent. And we see it. It's not just in documentary filmmaking. It's in comedy. It's in dramas. It's in film. It just seems that whatever you want to call this thing, diversity, equity, inclusion, it just seems to have run rampant

and completely destroyed or helped to destroy entire industries and corporations like the BBC. Well, it looks like they are on their way out. We might talk about this more later. I don't know, but I was watching have I got news for you the other day. And Ian Hisslop, again, it's a topical news show in the UK that's very popular. And he said, talks about it, and Piers Morgan and talk TV and said something like, well, if anyone's even watching that show, there's pen everywhere and all that.

And I thought, are you not aware that Pierce Morgan gets millions and millions of views? And you guys are in a bubble that gets very few views. And to not be aware of that when your entire job, your entire... status as this sort of media mogul that Ian Heslop is, is based on knowing what is going on in the media. For him to not know that Piers Morgan is hugely popular around the world, whether you like him or not, is a travesty. So they just don't know what's going on outside of their bubble. That is so fascinating to me because, as you know, Private Eye, Ian Hisslob's magazine that he edits, they did a kind of hit piece or whatever piece on us. And then I was like, I looked up their circulation,

and I was like, well, of course you didn't hit piece on us, because we're so much bigger than you know. And it was weird to me because, as you say, they simultaneously, their numbers are going through the floor, the BBC. They're canceling shows left, right and center. I mean, with comedy, mock the week is gone. MASH report is gone. Live at Derpola numbers I'm being told are declining and eventually will be canceled as well. News night has had to rejig a bunch. I mean, we could go on and on and on, right? So they're really struggling. But at the same time, there's this incredible like sneering smugness of like, we are the, we are the people with all the power. And I'm just like, you're not.

You're really, really not. Well, all they have now is that position as the legacy media. I remember seeing years ago I was at a talk a YouTuber was giving where he said exactly this. He was at a panel with like Nat Geo and BBC and all these people. And he was like the outside of the YouTuber. And he was saying, oh, there's something about it that I still want to make my shows on the BBC. still want to have channel phone, all these things. And I think it's that my parents will be impressed. And it's just, it's so mad because the numbers are huge on YouTube. There's so much bigger,

and you can attract a much wider audience. There is still something, and it's all they have left, is this idea that we are legacy and we have gatekeepers. The irony is it's less democratic, but they position it as somehow more valuable. Well, the idea is that it's curated. Yes. And therefore better. And I don't know that in 2023, that really is true, because, you It's curated by gatekeepers in the legacy media, but it's not like YouTube is uncurated. It is curated by the public. If the public click on your content, it goes up. And if they don't, it goes down.

And so the cream tends to rise to the top, although I mean some of the stuff 18-year-old's watches a bit of an exception. But you know what I mean. And I thought it was beautifully summed up in the last few weeks as we're recording this by this incident with the BBC Radio 5 Live presenter, Nihalath and Ayaki, who basically went out and said what I think is probably the most racist thing I've ever heard anyone publicly say, which we'll get into. And more interesting than him, because I have my opinions about him, was the BBC's reaction. This guy said that he has mental health issues because he's surrounded by white people. And the reaction from the BBC was

to apologize effectively to him and say, no, we're working really hard to reduce the number of white people. In an organization. that is already massively overrepresented in terms of minorities. It just sums it up for me. And this is a guy who makes a really, really good salary from it, while probably not bringing in as much value as he costs. Yeah, quite possibly. I don't watch or listen to him very much.

He might be very good at what he does. He's not. I've been on a show. We had a debate about comedy in which he explained that Joan Cleese's opinion on comedy is relevant. Well, what was John Cleese done in comedy, right? Exactly. What has John Pleas ever done for us?

Exactly. Yeah. Nehau, it's a bizarre one, isn't it? Because we've got a guy here who is, in terms of privilege, if we're going to use their words, in terms of privilege and status and all of these kinds of things, in the top 0.001% of just the UK. If you expand that to the world, people are born in Binns in Bangladesh and all sorts of places, right? There is no number that I can go on long enough with the 0.000000 that is sufficient to explain

just how privileged and status worthy this man is. And I think that speaks to the issues that we have with socialism and woke culture. Because here's an example of how you get what you want and it's never enough. So he's gotten what he wants by a million miles better than he could have ever dreamed of. And he has it. And now it's like, but I now also want people who look like me around me. And I want to start changing the numbers of different demographics. And it's never going to be enough because we all have, as a human thing,

an obsessive compulsion, I think, to start making things neater and tidier around us. Not me, mate, unfortunately. Yeah, everyone aside from you, though, we're trying to make... But there is that control that you have. Yeah, you want to create order and control of your immediate environment. Yeah. I think that's right. And I don't know if he actually knows the statistics.

Maybe he doesn't know. There's something called Diamond Diversity, which is like the neutral... I don't know what you'd call it, abdudicator of TV across the UK. So it's not just the BBC. We're looking at Sky Channel 4 and all these different channels. And when I was struggling, I started looking this up, Diamond Diversity. And the BBC use it. They all use Diamond Diversity. No one seems to know about it in the public. The Telegraph once ran a tiny little article about them and nobody else seems to know about

Diamond diversity. What they do is they find all the stats of minorities. They don't include Jews, of course, but other minorities and how well they're doing in the media industry, both on-screen and off-screen. And what they've been finding for years now, even before the whole sort of woke apocalypse started to come to the fore, is that minorities are significantly it overrepresented on TV. Now the problem is for these people who work at Diamond Diversity is they need to keep their jobs, right? Because if everything is diverse, they've done their jobs and there's nothing left. So you can look at the latest report. There's a new report every year or two. It's Diamond Diversity 6 and you can look that up online and it's mad. It is mad

and it really is about that overused saying, but it's true that those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. And I think you look at, it's very Orwellian, And it's the first page of the Diamond Divers, they sum it up and they say, you know, there's, oh, we really need to work on getting women more off-screen roles. There's not enough off-screen roles for women at the top in the senior roles. So you go and have a look at the actual details. And it's true, there are more directors who are men. There are more writers who are men. Not that many more, but a little bit more.

Producers, they're pretty much equal. When you go higher and higher, they're dominated by women. So commissioning editors. So the gatekeepers, the people who actually hire those male directors and writers are overwhelming. women, which is ironic. You know, the complaint is they're the ones deciding that. And then the showrunners at the very, very top, the top, top people, 90% are women. But that's how they mess with things. That's how they try and get you to agree to their ideology. The first page, oh, there's not enough women in the senior roles because there's not enough directors and writers

who are women. The women are the ones hiring those male directors because they are above them. Now, with diversity, same thing happens. Oh, we need to get more diversity. We need to, oh, we're still working really hard. You can see that people from BAME, which is the British way of saying minorities, black Asian minority ethnic, are about doubly overrepresented compared to the population at large. That's huge. That's more than a significant difference. It's particularly true in children's TV. I don't know why necessarily. Comedy. And it's particularly untrue. The only place where there's slightly less than the actual population at large is factual. And that's also quite funny, really, because, you know, it's a place where facts are allowed and, you know,

that's where it's not that way. But comedy, children, stupid, all these kinds of things significantly overrepresented. But these people need a job. So that's what's going on. They're pushing and pushing because they are earning money out of telling us and making us believe it. And Nihau is probably believing what he's hearing and he's pushing this kind of agenda. And I don't think it's that far-fetched to say that kind of philosophy when taken to its limit causes what happened the other day at the top of the universities in America. Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate MIT's code of conduct or rules regarding bullying and harassment? Yes or no?

If targeted at individuals not making public statements? Yes or no? Calling for the genocide of Jews does not constitute bullying and harassment? I have not heard calling for the genocide for Jews on our campus. But you've heard chance for intifada. I've heard chance, which can be anti-Semitic depending on the context, when calling for the, the elimination of the Jewish people. So those would not be according to the MIT's

code of conduct or rules? That would be investigated as harassment, if pervasive and severe. Ms. McGill, at Penn, does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's rules or code of conduct? Yes or no? If the speech turns into conduct, it can be harassment, yes. I am asking specifically calling for the genocide of Jews,

does that constitute bullying or harassment? If it is directed and severe or pervasive, it is harassment. So the answer is yes. It is a context-dependent decision, Congresswoman. It's a context-dependent decision. That's your testimony today. Calling for the genocide of Jews is depending upon the context. That is not bullying or harassment.

This is the easiest question to answer, yes, Ms. McGill. So is your testimony that you will not answer Yes. If it is, if the speech becomes conduct, it can be harassment. Yes. Conduct meaning committing the act of genocide? The speech is not harassment. This is unacceptable, Ms. McGill.

I'm going to give you one more opportunity for the world to see your answer. Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's code of conduct when it comes to bullying and harassment? Yes or no? It can be harassment. The answer is yes. And Dr. Gay, at Harvard, does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard's rules of bullying and harassment?

Yes or no. It can be depending on the context. What's the context? Targeted as an individual. Targeted at an individual. It's targeted at Jewish students, Jewish individuals. Do you understand your testimony is dehumanizing them? Do you understand that?

dehumanization is part of anti-Semitism? I will ask you one more time, does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard's rules of bullying and harassment? Yes or no? Anti-Semitic rhetoric when it crosses into conduct. Anti-Semitic rhetoric when it crosses into conduct that amounts to bullying, harassment, intimidation, that is actionable conduct and we do take action. So the answer is yes, that calling for the genocide of Jews

violates Harvard Code of Conduct, correct? Again, it depends on the context. It does not depend on the context. The answer is yes, and this is why you should resign. These are unacceptable answers across the board. Because we have this Olympics now, because everybody is being pushed to start comparing who is where in the hierarchy of ideology,

races and all sorts of things, we've now got presidents of American universities basically calling for genocide of Jews and that's why I think this is a problem. They weren't calling for. They were saying people calling for the genocide of Jews is harassment or isn't based on the context which by the way, we talked about this the other day

on one of our raw shows. It's like if they'd been consistent about this throughout the last however many years you'd sort of go, well look, you know, universities in America, bastions of free speech, You know, the campus is where young people go to be a bit crazy and we must give them extra leeway. This is where they, you know, test out ideas and then eventually they go into the real world

and whatever. But that's not what's been happening. What's been happening is for the last six years or 10 years or however long it's been, it's like you ask me where I'm from. It's a micro-grat. That's what's been happening. So there's a massive inconsistency there, which you're pointing to. And the thing with Nahal is, look, I don't like him.

I don't think he's particularly good at his job, but that's irrelevant. point of something else, which is how is it acceptable for somebody to openly be racist against white people or any people? And then for the major institution that is funded by quite a lot of white people, by the way, in this country, to then apologize to them. And that's why people are like asking me why I'm going at him so hard. I'm done. I'm done playing with these people. I'm done accepting that this is a way that we talk about different groups because these people think that they can get away with it. No, you can't. You don't have a monopoly on the microphone anymore. There are other voices now, and we're not going to put up with this shit anymore. We're just not.

I think you're absolutely right. And it's something you guys have spoken about before. I mean, the road to hell is paper of good intentions. This idea, and I think it needs to be taught in schools a little bit, this idea that when bad people come, they're going to come and say, bad, bad, bad and get everyone is so childish, it's so facile. And the reality every single time throughout history has been that people have come along with ideas that at that time seemed progressive and right and right on and useful. And at the moment, I think it's just that humans, I am a bit nihilistic and I think humans in general are tribalistic and we're tribal and we, you know, we're chimpanzees to an extent. And we do feel anger and annoyance. I was telling you

before we came on, I get annoyed if people on the plane touched me. I'm annoyed. And there is a tiny bit in me going, I should kill that guy. And I go, no, no, because I'm a real person and I'm a human, and he's just sort of accidentally brushed my leg, and he deserves as much right. We live in a society, as George Costanza and Seinfeld would say. So I think we lose track of that sometimes, that we will, when allowed, when it is permissible, we will be racist. We actually will. So all this stuff about Prince Harry and unconscious bias, blah, blah, blah, there is an element of that in all of us, but it's not coming from where he thinks it is. It's actually, where's the place in today's society, where I can be racist and can be horrible,

And Nihal's found that place, unfortunately. We'll be back with Andrew in a minute, but first we want to tell you about this ingenious new device. Look, to break that bad habit, you can forget about having to go cold turkey. There's now a better way. We're talking about fume. It's spelled f-u-m and pronounced fume, which makes no sense. Anyway. Not everything in a bad habit is wrong, so instead of a drastic uncomfortable change,

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when you get the journey pack today. That's t-R-Y-F-U-M dot com and use our code T-R-I-G to save an additional 10% of your order today. Give it a guy. it might just help you kick that bad habit. Back to the interview. It's really depressing because I thought we'd got to a place, or we're getting to a place is a more accurate way of summing it up, where we all accepted that gender, race, ethnicity, it doesn't matter. When you're hiring

somebody, you want the best person for a job. You're a football fan. You don't care if the striker is a Muslim from Egypt like Mohammed Sala. All you care about is that he's in credible at his job. And for someone to then say they don't want this particular racial group in the office or to be surrounded by them is abhorrent. Was it Arsenal's women's team recently that I had to apologize because they had no black players? I mean, that is taking this to the limit. I mean, a sport. Sport, you just need the best of the best of the best. And that that was just absolutely bonkers. Yeah. And I think what it also shows as well is that the institution is just completely corrupted by this ideology. And it gives me no joy to say this, because I love the BBC.

If I think about my favourite documentaries, BBC. If I think about my favourite comedy programmes, very frequently BBC, the news, everything about it, the World Service. And to see the disarray it's currently falling into, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, yeah. It is sad. I mean, look, these are ideas that, if you just think about the ideas in the first place, they're not, they're not necessarily bad, taken at a very minute level. I mean, you don't want people growing up and not being able to at all recognize, you know, there'd be no way for black people to get into media. If it was a situation, let's say the Diamond Diversity came out and said, actually, despite there being 18% of BAME people in the UK, only three or four percent are on TV. I don't know

what the answer is because I don't like the idea of forcing change like that. Coleman Hughes is a great speaker, and he had this whole clash recently with Ted talks because he thinks that they were dismissing him and subduing his video because he was suggesting that, you know, affirmative action in this sense is not a good idea. And he said, look, if you want to do this, invest in communities from, you know, grassroots, help communities from the beginning. And you should look at the communities that are the poorest, not necessarily by their skin color. Because we know that in like free school meals schools, some of the poorest schools in the country, that black Africans actually do significantly better, black people of African

heritage, significantly better than white kids. Black people of Caribbean heritage don't do better. They do really badly as well as the white kid. So those are the words. So what's going on there? If you do really want to, if you really cared, if they really cared, about getting that intersectionality idea right from the start and going, okay, let's look at that.

The poorest people are actually the ones doing worse. That's how it would be done. But I mean, African kids of African heritage do really well. Kids of South Asian heritage like Nihal do really, really well. That's what I think. If they want to look at it, that's where they should be looking. And it's not just affected mainstream broadcasting, it's also podcasting as well. So tell us about that, because that blows my mind, because the whole point to me of podcasting

is that it's independent. It's got a punk element. There's a punk aesthetic. Anybody can set up a podcast. Yeah, this is punk. Wherever independent creatives will start to make art, there will be psychopaths out there to control them and decide which of them get through. I spoke to a punk rock who's been cancelled recently, Louise Distrass. I mean, she's like a punk rocker, and you're supposed to be able to say whatever you, that's a whole bloody point.

And the way that agents have treated her, the way that people have treated her and just not given her her money, I mean, surely that's a significantly worse crime than worrying about her saying that trans women are not women. That's what she said. Sorry. He has an allergic reaction to that. Give her someone money, I'm Jewish.

What are you doing? I thought trans women and women was what it was. Trans women and women, no. Anyway, so she said that and people have just taken advantage of her and kicked her out and not paid her. And they've basically said like, oh, well, you said these offensive things so we don't have to give you money now. It's bonkers, right? The podcasting industry is the same thing. Also, the kinds of people that go into wishy-washy careers like ours, they are wishy-washy to an extent.

They're not like proper jobs in some respects. It's media publishing. I had to get up at like nine this morning. What you're talking about? I got here. He was just lying around. No, we're very hardworking, but they're not the kinds of jobs that, I don't know. I mean, my parents didn't want me to be a YouTube.

I was just joking. These aren't real. It's like when we interviewed Bill Burr. Do you not worry that they're going to want to go into show business and you having seen, like, the way show business is and... No, show business is awesome. Like, none of us have a real job. What are we doing right now? I was literally, what is today? Today is Tuesday? Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, we got jackets on and we're talking. talking. This isn't a fucking real job. I love that. No, no, you're absolutely right. Yeah. So you were saying these kind of industries.

They attract psychopaths who want to take advantage. They want to then put their imprint on it, imprint on it. But like I said before, these are not creatives. These are not people who understand how creativity works. So just the other day, this was a week or two years ago, and it wasn't reported in the media at all. We had, in the UK, there were two big sort of award ceremonies for podcasters. Again, you and I, we're sort of lucky that we can be outside of that.

really. We live on YouTube and we're not bothered by that stuff. But a lot of people do rely on that because that's how they get their marketing. Audio podcasting, unlike YouTube, has no discoverability. It means that unless you have a big name and a good way, somehow, money to get your podcast out there, you can't really do it. Whereas on YouTube, if it does well, YouTube pushes your video out to be there. So audio podcasters really rely on marketing and awards are pretty much the main way to do that. At the audio podcast awards, they had a guy get up on stage. Axel Kakutier, I think his name is. Someone can correct me later. And he gave what was basically a call to arms against Israel just after October 7th.

And really passionately so. He was supposed to just get up and give an award. But this is a guy who is a far left, a totally untalented person, who in that podcast industry in the UK is a big deal. But outside of it is, no one knows who he is. He's on stage and he was giving like a rallying cry. Now you won't be surprised to know that their main speaker there at the award ceremony was one

Nish Kumar, who is always at the centre of all this as well. So he was also like getting them all going, yeah, genocide, they'll commit in genocide. There were a few Jewish people in the audience, relatively few despite the myth that Jews pervaded all aspects of the media. But there were few there who I've heard from, who were just absolutely mortified, gutted and frightened for their lives. But that's how far these things go. And they got in touch afterwards with the audio production awards ceremony,

and they were just like, well, you know, what can we do? It's what the speakers have said and so on. But imagine if someone had gotten up and said, oh, we defend Israel's right to defend itself or something like that. Nah, would have been absolutely killed. So that's the audio production awards. Then you've got the British podcast awards, who it is just mind-boggling what they get up to.

When I first started, I didn't have any listeners or anything, so I applied for it. But you read, they do 33% of their judge. So they judge 33% on the quality of the podcast. 33. 66% is like wishy-washy stuff, which basically means diversity. What does that mean, just to interrupt, judging on the quality of the podcast? Are we talking about the audio quality, how it sounds, or the guests, all the conversations?

How did they... I don't understand what that means, Andrew. Well, the award ceremony is ridiculous anyway, right? Well, this is what I was going to say is, like, I almost don't... I'm not even that interested in this conversation. There's no offence to you, because this is all the... old school legacy bollocks. Yeah.

That we are all refusing to engage in and that's why we're all doing well, right? Because it's all fake. The only real test of content is whether people consume it or not. That's it. That's it. The fact that three people or 10 people or 50 people in the room sat and went, oh, this is good and there's a brown person. Like, no one gives a shit.

And they're all going to fail. And this is the thing is like the BBC has started podcasts. and you're going, why don't you look at what actually works? Look, steal our idea. Get two people who are better looking and funny and whatever. Impossible. Thank you. Correct.

That's a good joke. And do the same thing. But they can't. They can't because they can't have the actual conversations that we are having here because ideologically they can't actually face reality. And that is all. So let, you know what, my, I'm just saying to you guys, let these people do their stupid awards

and do all the stupid crap because it just helps us. Yeah, you're right. But not many people can get to the levels that we have gotten to. So there are people who would like to do things like us who are starting out and we got a bit of luck as well,

all of us along the way. No matter how good, I mean, we try to be, there's an element of luck, element of starting at the right time. If you start now, maybe it's a bit too saturated, Maybe someone's working too many jobs to take care of people. They can't do well in podcasting.

They're trying and they just want to offer an alternative view. Every single – and the marketing of that – that's why that's important for those people. For the podcast awards, it's one of the very few ways to get your podcast in front of people. Almost every single nominated podcast is like, Asian girls do this, the Masala podcast. You enjoy that. Oh, mate. I'm hungry now. A gay and a non-gay.

They all called things like that. And it's just like even in the title, and it's – Does anyone care about what's good anymore? I mean, that speaks to your point, doesn't it? My point is, I think, look, there's no argument. It's much harder to start now than when we did. But the reality is ultimately the beauty of the moment we're in is there are no gatekeepers. So you can make it if you go for it if you have an original idea.

But let's be honest, if you start a podcast called something along the lines of trigonometry now and you did all the same things that we did then, it wouldn't work because it has to be original to that particular moment. there were not many people in this country doing what we do now. So the timing was important, you know, luck, talent, all of these things come into play. But ultimately, if you create something that answers the need of the moment, then you will make it in the current climate.

And that's why I just, I really think it's important for people to hear that message. It's like all these podcasting awards, this is all bullocks. It's not, it might help you in the very short term, but no one wants to hear, you know, two Asian gays or whatever the fuck it's called.

It's really, it's just a dead industry. And the more people understand that, I think the easier it's going to be. I really think that. By the way, one of the things you kind of didn't bring up, you mentioned being Jewish,

when you were being told, you know, we need a different person in front of the camera, did you raise the fact that, you know, you were from what is, at least in my opinion, a ethnic minority.

I mean, some people would say Jews don't count. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, being Jewish, I've been fine. I've had a fine upbringing. But it's only one generation back.

My dad had to change our name from Goldstein to gold because of anti-Semitism, because of what he had to face and going to like a rough school. I got to go to a posh school because of the sacrifices my parents made. It's only two or three generations ago of the Holocaust. I know people are tired of hearing about it, but it needs to be reinforced, especially with what happened recently at the colleges. And I did end up mentioning it.

But this was two or three years in because I was so ashamed to have to sit in front of a bunch of gatekeepers and say, you know, I've got this victimhood thing. It was always an anathema to me. And I felt, but I had no money. So, you know. Terrible Jew. Well, this is the problem.

Yeah, no one likes a Jew with no money. You know, it goes against the stereotype. No one likes a Jew full stop. But they're due with no money. Yeah, extra bad. So I'm sitting there and I remember having, like, for the 500th time, well, the 50th time, we can't because you're white. And I didn't want to say it.

I was so ashamed. I was sitting with my director, David, as well, who's not Jewish, but we didn't really talk about this stuff because I'm not a victim. I hate that. You don't want people pitying you. And I just was like, oh, I've got to do something because David's upset by this. I'm upset. We're both struggling and trying to make it happen.

So I did say to this guy who was one of the producers or whatever, you know, I'm Jewish. And he just started laughing. And he said, I can't say what I really think about that. And I went, oh, okay. And that was it. It was painful. It was painful. You started laughing.

Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think he was laughing? Because he probably subscribes to the view that Jews rule the media and the industry and all of those things and that wasn't considered a minority and wasn't worthy of you, which in a sense, I don't agree with that, but I do agree that my, by essence of being Jewish, I shouldn't be given a TV program. But if I have to play his game.

Yes. So it's his rules. Yes. And I'm playing to his rules, but he's laughing because, and this is the problem, I mean, this is obviously David Badell's done, the British comedians done this, Jews don't count. Bidiel's argument is a little bit different to mine. He looks at it as there's a whole industry around wokeness and everybody is comparing, you know, where they are in the oppression Olympics and Jews are not included.

And that plays into the stereotype that Jews are wealthy and super white. And I agree with him about that, except I would say, so let's dismantle the whole thing. We had this debate when we had David on the show. And I did say to him, you know, you've identified all. all the dots, but you refuse to connect them. And that's it. You know, identity politics is bad and it's especially bad for successful minorities like East Asians in America, like certain types of Africans, like Jews, et cetera. It's never going to work out. And people need to understand that. And by the way, I so hear what you said about not wanting to be a victim and not wanting your

background to be used to your benefit. I remember when I was at school because I was, English wasn't my first language, they would, by the time I got to sort of GCSE, so that's 16, my teachers would be like, oh, because you're foreign, you're allowed a dictionary to do your exams. And by this point, I spoke English as well, if not better, than most of my classmates. So I was like, I don't want it. And they all looked at me like I was the weird one, the teachers. And I was like, it was so obvious to me that you're not supposed to get these benefits if you genuinely don't need them. It's like, I wouldn't want a wheelchair. Some people would, though. Yeah. And that, and they shouldn't be given one if they're not

disabled. Do you know what I mean? They're given metaphorical wheelchairs all the time. Right. Yeah. I think that's wonderful. That's a wonderful analogy. I like, I like that. It sounds like that. You may that catch me if you can to two little mice or whatever. One drowns in the, what is it, yogurt or something? Cheese. The other one, the other run so fast, turns the butter into something solid. I didn't write... Milk into butter. Milk into butter and climbs out.

And that's that Christopher Walken. What a brilliant scene. I love that. And in essence, that's the two... What you've just said is the two sides of the culture wars, isn't it? People who say, come on, pull your socks up. You know, make your bed.

We did our Jordan Peterson competition the other day. And the other side going like, help everyone. And obviously sometimes you did some people need help. You know? But it just... There were also people. who will take advantage of that.

There'll be people who didn't need that dictionary, who are, who were born in England, who speak English, who said, well, oh, Constantine's got, well, if you're offering it, can I have that dictionary as well? Because I can look up the big words. There are people like that,

and they get to pass off, you know, under the guise of righteousness, they get to, you know, they get all the help they want. Andrew, when I was doing my research into this interview and I was listening to some of your podcasts, it struck me that actually as a documentary maker,

you were really fearless. and you were prepared to tackle some subjects which a vast majority of people simply won't want to go near. And we talked about it. Yes. Before my interview with you, particularly the subject of paedophilia.

And your work on that is striking. So let's talk about that, honestly. What was the work about? And what did you discover? Well, thank you, Francis. You don't think of yourself as fear. I'm scared of everything. But when you're...

you're working, you've sort of got a cloak on, don't you? And you pretend you're not. I guess I was also just so desperate to make it at this point. So I was always like, okay, what's the stuff that maybe Louis Thruh wouldn't touch or whatever? And he has actually done that topic, to be fair. I'd moved from Argentina at this point where I'd been living for some years. That's why I did the exorcist stuff and UFO stuff. I moved to Germany.

Wanted to learn German. God knows why. Horrible. But whatever. And while I was there, it's like, okay, what's the thing that I can do that no one else wants to touch, like no one else wants to do here, because that's the only way I'm going to get into the media. So I'm still desperately pushing and trying, and it, okay, Nazis and neo-Nazis, and there's communists there and all these things. Okay, I'm looking at those. And then I

realized there were adverts on the train there, the metro, for something called kind hitter Verdon, which means don't offend. And I'm immediately intrigued as a journalist, what the hell is this? So I looked it up, and it is, they say they were the world's only therapy for non-offending pedophiles who want to get help, who will never report them to authorities, because an American doctor would have to report them, and an Australian one, or they could actually face prison. A British one, I don't think, would face prison, but would be struck off. So they've got these, you know, so I thought, I don't know what I feel about this, and this is going to be scary, and obviously my girlfriend, at the time now, nearly my wife in a few months, was like,

what are you doing? And I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this. And so I emailed, um, the don't offend clinic people and say, can I get in touch with any of the patients? I want to talk to them and see what's what. And they said, we can't just give you their emails. We don't even know them. That's the whole point. The doctors don't know the real names of these people, so they can't report them. But what they do is they send out in child sexual abuse material.

They will download what they think is child sexual abuse material, and it's actually an advert like, hey, you've got a problem called this number, which I think is great, that that's there. And so they go anonymously and whatever. So the clinician said, what I can do is give your email address out. I'm like, oh, God, all these people are going to have my email address. But, okay, look, I'm desperate at this point, and I'm fascinated. There's no topic I'm more fascinated.

I mean, what a fascinating topic it is. So I waited a few weeks, almost forgot about the whole thing. And then I get an email from someone who calls himself Max from like a weird email address, a bunch of numbers and letters that I can't decipher. And he says, hi, Andrew. I heard about what you're doing. I can only meet today. I'm only in Berlin today.

This is what I'm going to be. And that's it. And I was like, oh, God, okay, got to do it. I cancelled going to the lake with my girlfriend. It's like the summer, lovely thing. I'm really sorry, I've got to go and meet a paed of all. And she's just like, what? And I'm like, sorry.

So I go and meet him. But just before going to meet him, I put the address into Google Maps, and it's a public swimming pool. And I'm like, what the hell? What have I got myself into here? So my heart is going mad. I've never met someone like this.

And I don't do well in situations where I'm scared. So I really was scared. Cycled down to meet him. Get into this public swimming pool. And I find, you know, who he is. And he does look like what you do. You know, it's the stereotype. Chubby guy.

He's got speedo. He's got T-shirt over covering it almost. And he was with a little girl. And that shocked me. So I said, oh, hi, Max. And he's like, oh, hello. I'm like, right, who's, who's? And she just goes off to play.

And I said, who's the little girl? And he said, I'm babysitting. her. I go, oh, this is, what have I got myself into? Because, you know, at that point, you're not even like some guy with the BBC, you know, you're just a guy on your own, like, I'm going to be a reporter, I've decided. So you're just a guy on your own, now at a public swimming pool with a guy you know is a paedophile who's babysitting children. So I'm now, like, worried for myself. Like, what have I got myself into? And I'm pushing him, going, you can't be babysitting him, what do you mean? And he goes, no, no, the mum knows about my condition. So that led me to go and meet the mum, because I just didn't

believe in. And the mum is then like, yeah, well, she was like super lefty. And I'm not just having to go at left-wing people today. I mean, there's a fucking surprise, mate. It is a thing, unfortunately, with the far left. It's the reason that a lot of people on the right adopt pedophilia as one of their key issues, sort of military and pedophilia, we're going to get those guys. It's because the far left, not necessarily deliberately, but their ideologies lead to that space. If you really push this idea of everyone is oppressed and whatever, it can go there. All behavior is a product of oppression. That's it. That's exactly right. And people listening will be going, oh, come on, that's not true. We've got ample evidence of it over the years.

That's not to say that there are not just as many of these people, these criminal, horrible people who do things to children on the right. There are. But there's more permissibility, is that a word? Permissiveness, I think. There's permissiveness on the left. That's the problem. So we've seen it Firstly, with Kinkora Boys' home in Ireland, where the Green Party in Ireland were involved in allowing the Royal Mountbatten, Dickie Mountbatten, to just go and do what he wanted with the children there. And we've seen it in Berlin, where we have something called the Kentler experiment that took place in the 80s.

It was also the Green Party far left, who noticed there was a problem where they had too many homeless boys and too many paedophile men that they didn't know what to do with. And so they placed the homeless boys with the paedophiles in foster care with paedophiles because that was a solution to, you know, two birds with one stone. This sounds like something I'm making up. But it does. It's all there. It's all New York Times, I think, covered it.

Or one of the New Yorker covered it. It's all out there except Berlin, the government, the local government, is still keeping a lot of the papers under lock and key because a lot of the people involved are still alive who were responsible for this travesty that took place. But those kids who were raised in those homes are so messed up by it that they can hardly speak now. And that is just one example of one of the issues. I know I'm just going on about the left today. But the far left, that is one of the issues that can happen.

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We recommend you do it on Givesend Go. Starting a campaign on Givesendgo is easy and intuitive. Go to give send go.com today. That's give sendgo.com to start raising money for whatever is important to you. And now back to the interview. So you meet this mother. Yeah. Who's a far lefty.

Yeah. And what happens from there? She tells me it's all fine. She does this like weekly meet up with these guys who are minor attracted persons, as she calls them, who don't offend. Now, whether you trust that or not, I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure some of them don't offend. and I'm sure some of them do, and some of them watch child sexual abuse material,

which to me is just as bad because it encourages it to be made more. Without you watching it, it doesn't happen, doesn't get made. I speak to her, and I push her and push her. She actually lets three of her kids get babysat by this guy, Max. And I said to her, you know, you might have this experiment and this idealistic idea, and I get the idea, again, it's a nice idea of like these guys are afflicted with some sort of conditional illness and they're trying really hard not to offend and they don't. That, okay, nice idea, and maybe they need to speak.

And I think they do need to speak. I think that will stop them offending as much. But you put yourself in danger, then. Don't put your kids in danger, because that's what's happening. That was pretty much the last I saw of her. She didn't want to speak to me again after that, because we had this real, not-nice conversation. Max continued babysitting her children for some time.

I continued talking to various other paedophiles who would meet me. Some of them, I understood what they were saying. They wanted help and they would never touch a child, they say. And I believe some of them. Some of them said, oh, I did once when I was younger and then I'm thinking, oh, I don't know what to think. The point is, though, that the clinic, what they're saying, and I think they really do have a point.

And I think it's something we need to talk about more. We see this for all kinds of criminality, that when people are made to feel like they're monsters, they are more likely to retreat into the dark web or the dark corners of the web and tell one another that one. what they're doing is okay. So we need to reach out to them in a way where they can go to therapy and realize how bad it is to abuse children because they tell each other that it's okay and this clinic disabuses them of that notion. They say some of the, a good percentage of these people,

there's one percent of the population, of the male population, have this affliction or whatever it is. The clinic believes, it's very hard to find empirical evidence unfortunately with this kind of thing. They believe that there are many who are psychopaths and they, there's nothing they can do about those people. There are many who will never offend because they just know it's a terrible thing to do. And where the clinic helps is with the people in the middle who could offend if they, for example, got drunk

around children, if they're around children too much, or if they fell in with a crowd, and there are many crowds like this who tell them that it's okay. So for that reason, they need to come out and speak to therapists. And at the moment, outside of Germany, that's not possible. So that's a concern, because if you're worried about child abuse And again, there's all different kinds of statistics, but some say that one in three or four kids are abused. Some say one in six or one in nine.

But it's a lot. I mean, even one in a hundred is too many. So at the moment, on the left we're saying, don't talk about this because I'm getting triggered. On the right, we're saying, lock them all up and kill them all. And that's obviously not something we can actually do. So I think we need to go, let's calm down and talk about this. And we can actually save children's lives, hopefully. That's the idea.

And was a clinic effective, or is this clinic effective, in dealing with this particular issue? They don't know. That's the problem. They are going on faith. Their philosophy is it must help because they're coming in and we are talking to them and making them understand how bad this is. And even if it just helps with one guy and stops them from committing that a heinous act on one child, that's a job well done. But they can't really go around going, hang on, was that the guy who committed that thing afterwards? And that's the biggest criticism. labeled at the Don't Offend Clinic in Germany. And that's an issue. I agree that's an issue, but I don't know yet what the way around that is.

Do you know what you were saying about the mother who was allowing her kids to be babysat? It's something that I talk about a lot, which is how few people in the West, and you're right, it is more one side of the political spectrum than another, but also I think the right is also very naive about this. Ideology is the most powerful driver

of human behavior that I can think of. And you can get people to do incredibly awful, illogical, irrational, self-harming, harming their own children, which is even worse than self-harming things, simply because they've been presented with a worldview that they've fully brought into. That's shocking to me. Well, I started my channel, and as you guys know, I changed it to a new channel now, but I started it as cults. That was the idea of cults, cults and cult ideologies.

The problem was once I started talking about how some of the sort of lefty, woke stuff is cultish, everyone turned on me and I had to create this new channel. That's what Francis came on, Heretics. But the first channel was cults. And the links between like a Scientology cult and the way Scientologists feel and the way Jones Town and Heaven's Gate were and some of the political ideologies, it's the same thing. And I've got a good friend now whose next Scientologist called Aaron Smith-Levin. And he says all the time, he's such a well-rounded guy.

He was born into Scientology, so he didn't, like, you know, drink the Kool-Aid or whatever. He's a good guy. And he says, when I was in it, there is nothing you could have said to me. Nothing that would have made me not believe in Scientology. And Scientology believes in an interlactic warlord called Zeno, who put 10, like, billions of people in a volcano and all this mad stuff. So that's how far it goes. And I think once you've dealt with those kinds of stories, to then come back and go, like, oh, maybe Nihal hasn't got it. exactly right, and he wants to imagine that the demographics are different for the BBC than they

actually are. That's not a stretch. I mean, if people can believe, I mean, Heaven's Gate, they believed that they were going to go to an alien planet. They all killed themselves. Like, it wasn't Colade. It was something else. That was Jonestown, actually. It wasn't collade. It was something else. I don't know what they drunk exactly. But they all took their own lives. That's how far people can go. So, yeah, the idea that this woman could let her own kids be taken out by a guy she knows is a paedophile babysitter. That's how far ideology is. That's what people, I want people to take away, exactly what you've just said. Like, if that's how far they can go, imagine just like politics, how we might all be a little bit, you know, blinkered.

And what was the rationale? Because that's the other thing that I'm curious about, because I might think, for example, that somebody is absolutely an ex-smoker. But I wouldn't let them deliberately babysit packs of cigarettes. Do you know what I mean? What is the rationale behind giving your children to? to somebody who is hopefully a non-offending. Why did she do this? Well, I said to it as like an alcoholic behind a bar.

She says because it means a lot to her. It's her life's work. So that's the ideological side. It's that very, very dangerous thing of feeling good about yourself. And now she has a huge group of people who no one else will speak to them except her. So she goes from being like Mrs. Boring, because she is, just boring, plain person. She's a boring person to superhero among those people. So that's what she's

And then at that point It's like cults, right? So one of the first parts of being in a cult is you get love bombed, right? People start love bombing you. People telling her how wonderful She's never heard that before. She's having a, you know, like most of us

Who's telling us how wonderful we are? Apart from the three of us together, you know? So what an amazing feeling. That's what Scientology does. That's what all of the cults do and that's what's happened unfortunately to her. She's being told, wonderful, wonderful, you're thinking about things in a way that no one else is,

how wonderful you are. And so those guys going, hey, you know what I'd really love. Like, no one would ever trust me with their kids, you know, and blah, blah, blah. You believe us that we'd never offend. And by the way, it might be that this guy really doesn't offend and didn't want anything to do with the kids in that way. He's still taking them through a changing way. Why is he babysitting kids, though? Why at a pool?

Why a swimming pool? Yeah. Why anyway? Why? It is not a common thing for a man to want to babysit someone else's children. I mean, someone else's children, generally speaking, are quite annoying. Oh, it's the worst thing in the world. Right.

So the fact that this is a guy that wants to do that, and completely unrelated, happens to be a non-offending paedophile, it's a little bit suss. I'm just... Call me a cynic. The way it works, I think, these guys don't... Okay, I'm speaking in general about a lot of the non-offenders from what they've told me, and then listeners and viewers can make their own minds up about

to what extent they should believe these guys. They don't just have a sexual attraction to them, which is disgusting and needs to be, you know, eradicated as much as it can be. But they also feel like they have some sort of platonic. They love being around children. So I spoke to an 18-year-old who has this, a boy who was a school president at his school, which is, you know, bad. I don't know his real name. I don't know the school. But we spoke just via Skype.

I didn't meet him in real life. And he kept saying the same thing. And he said, I'm going to go to these, I do all these clubs and after school activities where I look after the kids. So everyone thinks he's wonderful and amazing. He looks after the kids like Jimmy Saville did, you know, who's really involved with the kids. But he said, he said to me this really weird thing. And he said, Andrew, you need to understand, if I weren't able to do that, I would be more likely to offend. Because it's so important to me that I can be around kids.

And I love it so much that it would screw me up so much not being around them. And I said, but you know that doesn't make sense because if you weren't near the kids, you couldn't physically do it. And he was going, no, no, you don't get it. So those are the cognitive biases that you need to disabuse these people of. And this is possible that this guy, Max, who was babysitting the kids. I mean, the other question is, he knew he was meeting me, a journalist, and he wanted to give this, he wanted to show, it's rare that journalists want to meet one of these guys. So he wanted to show, hey, we're all above board.

And I spent months after his thinking, what was he trying to show? Was he trying to show defiance? Like, screw you. I would never do anything to a kid just because I have this thing. Why would you assume that? Here I am at a swimming pool with the kids. and he took it too far and it had the opposite effect. Maybe that's what he was trying to do.

These are generally not well-rounded individuals, unfortunately. These are people that there's a theory, there's no consensus, people don't know exactly what causes this conditional illness, but there's a theory that people get sort of stuck at a moment in time. That when you look at people like Jimmy Saville, who had a terrible childhood in abject poverty, pneumonia, things like that, that is very possible. Michael Jackson, awful childhood of abuse.

it's often cyclical. So that is a theory that people have. You get stuck in that moment and it's your development doesn't quite work and you still feel like a child and you like being around children. So that's all I can, you know, I'm strong manning why he would do that.

But the thing that I found really interesting about you talking to that 18 year old is to me quite telling because he was saying, unless I'm around kids, then I'm the real victim here. Yeah. And that, to me,

sums up a lot of what we're talking about. It's this desire for victimhood status, whereby if I can't be put in a position where I'm a direct threat to children, then I'm a victim. And you go, how insane is that logic and that way of thinking? And that people would agree to that. Yeah. He hoodwinks, you know, himself firstly. I believe he really believes that in himself. and he hoodwinks this woman who now runs a whole therapy class for a bunch of them. And she's not part of, you know, what happens with this Berlin Clinic, Berlin Clinic, don't offend. I think, okay, I think that there's some good here. This is just a woman, like, nothing to do with anything,

who happens to be quite left wing, and who believes that this is another minority victim who needs help in that respect. And we talk about cults. And before, when I was younger, I used to watch documentaries on cults. I think we all did. And I used to think, you know, a guy with a cult, a cult would be like a guy with it, robes with long hair, talking about some ridiculous thing, and there'd be about 200 people, and there'd be some dodgy sex involved and blah, blah, blah. And the older I get, the more I look

around, whether it's wokeism, whether it's, you know, for Islamists. And I go, this is all a cult. We are surrounded by cults in a way that I didn't understand and my eyes weren't open to before. That is human dynamics, isn't it? And I feel the same as you. And that's why, you know, My old, I say old channel, it's still going. I still go with it. But recently I started talking about, like I say, talking about how this is really similar. But there's an unwritten rule

among sort of the people on YouTube who talk about cults, which is that we don't get political. And I've tried to say like, that doesn't make sense though, because politics is everywhere, as Ricky Jervais, I think said once, but it's all part of the same thing.

And how can you possibly separate those things? What they really mean, though, a lot of these people who are ex-cults, a lot of them, they were in cults themselves. And there's the zeal of the, What was the expression? I can't remember now. The zeal of the converts or whatever.

These people who leave those cults tend to join new cults. And that tends to be, because the cults they were in, tends to have things we associate with the rights, which is homophobia. You can't be gay in Scientology. Tom Cruise would not admit that. It's apparent, there are rumors that's why Tom Cruise and John Travolta don't get on because John Travolta allegedly might be gay. And that's an issue.

That's a huge issue in Scientology. You cannot be gay in Scientology. It suggests there is something very wrong with you. Hasidic Judaism, evangelical Christianity, you can't be gay, you can't, individual liberty is not there, all those kinds of things.

So people leave those cults of extreme religions and they go the other way. And people start saying, oh, fantastic, come to our group, I've got blue hair. And then they've got blue hair. And everyone's got blue hair again. And they're like, oh, God,

I hated when I was in those cults, hey, and they're all with the blue hair. They're all having, and they're saying things like trans women are women. And I always are, I just say, but are you saying are? Are you using the word are? And they're going, yes, they are women. No, but that's not a thing. That can't, that has to be a slogan. Don't you recognize this from when you were in the cop? Just because this is the, seems to be the other side of the ideology, can't you see it? They don't see it because these are people who are prone to joining cults. So I agree with you absolutely, basically, you know. And based on what you've noticed, I'm curious if you have any insight into whether there is a certain type of person who has more.

of a predilection for joining cults and for believing things of the nature that you've just described? There is, and again, you're not supposed to say it. It's an unwritten law when you talk about cults because of the victimhood mentality that you're supposed to say, it can happen to anyone. If you went into a cult, it doesn't say there's anything particular about you that might need to be addressed in therapy. You're a wonderful person and any of us could have gone. But let's be honest, the three of us probably would never have joined Scientology, right? I just couldn't have.

I'd never join a cult. I might lead one. I join that cult. I think we're in it. Yeah, you don't want to join my cult. It's, no, but it's... But you were saying it's not that it could happen to anyone. No.

The truth is... The truth is you need to be very vulnerable in this time of life, in a particular time of life. So one person is Steve Hassan. He's known as like the godfather of cults because he came up with something called the Bight model, which is how to recognize a cult. Okay.

And he's an intellect and he's an academic. But what happened to him is that when he was in his 20s, three women in the library started talking to him and they were being all sexy and stuff and they convinced him to join something called the Moonies which was led by someone called Reverend Moon who believed he was the second coming of Christ and who were homophobic, far right, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He just upped and joined it.

Again, no matter how attractive those three women are, I'd imagine we wouldn't have joined the Moonies. He's now the expert in it and it does frustrate me sometimes that a lot of the experts talk to it. He wrote about the cult of Trump now but he doesn't want to talk about the cult of some of the lefty ideology stuff. So I sort of want to say to him like, well, hang on, mate. Like, I didn't join a cult and most of the listeners didn't.

And most of us did. So maybe we should tell you what to do rather than you advise us. So I think what does happen is people who need to feel special. That's what no one wants to say. These are people desperate to feel special, desperate to feel like they were a victim in their whole lives, and there is something special about Scientology, something special about the Moonies or whatever.

And those people, when they leave the cult, still want to feel special. So it's that needing to feel very special, I think. But isn't that quite a comment? thing, like I would have thought most people want to feel special in some way. Like everyone, everyone's kind of the hero of their own movie. And I think, obviously, we've talked a lot about wokeness on this show in history, historically speaking. And I think it's undoubtedly the case that the worldview, which is based on oppression structures and institutional discrimination and systemic this, it is a worldview that says that,

the world is against you and that is a world view that is predicated on you being special. Otherwise, why would the world be against you? If you're just like everyone else, right, then the world is agnostic about you. The world doesn't care about you. The world is what it is, and it's your job to make the best of that. But if you think the world is uniquely out to get you, that is a world's view that is about being special, isn't it? Yeah, 100%. Well, 100%. Well, that's why it's the same. We all want to feel special, as you say. Some of us realize like, well, Unfortunately, we are. No, unfortunately, we can't all be,

or we can't have a society where every one of the eight billion of us get special treatment. And so let's try and subdue that need to feel special. Other people go, well, hang on, what's this Scientology thing? I get to, so Alex Barnes-Ross is someone I know, I'm friendly with him now, an English Scientologist.

We don't get so many of them, but Elwyn Hubbard, the creator of Scientology, did spend a lot of time in England. And there is some, there are Scientologists here. And he said it was really attractive to him, apart from the love bombing and feeding special because he didn't feel special at school or anything like that, was that he was able to go and cure the reactive mind.

He was going to be able to go and evangelize and make other people realize that Scientology is the true way and that they are basically they're the bad guys and he's the good guy. I mean, what does that sound like? Do you know what it sounds like? Because to me, it sounds that people who are higher than average on narcissism are prone to either,

forming cults or joining a cult? I think so, yeah. Which you can understand whilst looking at it, because if you think about a conspiracy theory, somebody who's really into conspiracy theories, and eulogises about them, what are they effectively saying? You don't understand the world the way that I do, and I have a very special insight, which no one else does. I mean, that is highly narcissistic. Yeah, I think so. I think so. And you know what happens is, I mean, at the moment, the Scientologist is a big ex-Scientology community. I'm in with all, these. I didn't think that would happen, and that's the thing now I'm in with the ex-scientologists. And some of them are really lovely guys that get on with really well. But they've had what was

inevitable, a huge civil war between the ex-scientologists who have slightly different beliefs about how ex-scientology should be. It's just human beings, isn't it? It's hilarious. Andrew, listen, it's been such a pleasure chatting. Before we head on over and get some of our audience questions for you, you mentioned starting a new channel, which I'm just curious about because it's quite a hard thing to do to change channels. Why did you do it and how you found that? I was a victim, a victim, a victim of life. The system came to get me.

The system got me. I was a victim of audience capture, which basically means I was, I wanted loads of money. And so when I started my channel, I got very excited, okay, we're talking about Scientology, then this, then that. And I started realizing, okay, but if I've got Tom Cruise in the thumbnail, it does really well. Okay, let's do another one about Tom Cruise.

and now John Travolta and now Megan Markle. And then suddenly it went from what I wanted the channel to be to, and it's my own fault, of course, to celebrity stuff, a lot of it. And then when I put out the stuff I really cared about, which is very similar to what you guys do, not only do people not watch it, but they got angrier and angrier because these were people who were there for the cult stuff, and they didn't believe that the woke stuff was a cult thing. And recently with the Israel stuff, that just died of death. So I can still do a live stream and say look at what's happened to Prince Harry and Megan and it will get hundreds of thousands of views just talking to the camera. But that's not fulfilling me in my life. And I got to interview because of that channel, it gave me some prominence which allowed

me to interview top guests like Francis Foster and Graham Linehan and Winston Marshall and Helen Joyce and all these kinds of Richard Dawkins. Fantastic. I'm so happy. And what's the new channel called? It's called Heretics. And yeah, that's it. And it's, I hope people come and.

Absolutely. Well, we'll make sure to link to it. It's been really great to chat with it. Let's keep in touch and do this again sometime. Before we go to questions from our supporters, as you know, the last question we always ask is what's the one thing that we're not talking about that we should be? I was thinking about this and I thought lookism is an interesting one. And I think that's going to maybe be the next thing that happens because I was reading Ted Chang was one of my favorite authors.

He's like a scientist author. And he made this short story about a school that. where they use like magnets or whatever to turn off the receptor in your brain that can recognize attraction in people. So these people grew up not knowing if they were attractive or their friends were attractive. There are also very real experiments going on at the moment where about mind reading and being able to tell someone's attributes and things. You don't have to give a CV anymore.

You will be able to just read their minds and know if they're going to be good at certain things. And I think that a lot of what we've spoken about with regards to obsession and control among authoritarian people, I think that could be. That's one of the potentials for a future clash where some people are saying you've got to turn off your attraction bias in certain places and schools and things and all these kinds of things. So that's something that I think we need to look out for. That's insane. That's insane.

Anyway, if you want to hear more insane stuff, head on over to locals or elsewhere where you support us to get Andrew's answers to your questions. What was your most disturbing interview or guest?