TRIGGERnometry - Why We Lost - Brianna Wu

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

Brianna Wu is Executive Director of Rebellion Pac, former candidate for US House in MA and a software engineer. *Follow Brianna on X: https://x.com/BriannaWu | Buy gold and earn interest on it! https://monetary-metals.com/triggernometry/ | Munk Debates - become a member for free at https://munkdebates.com * Sponsor: Protect your home with 60% off any new SimpliSafe system. Go to https://SIMPLISAFE.COM/TRIGGER Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Substack! https://triggernometry.substack.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Shop Merch here - https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yeah, what happened? We didn't even have a primary. We spent four years pretending Joe Biden was not senile. Of course he was. This kind of loss, it has to wake you up, surely. Do you think it is, though? What is the evidence that's waking us up? Now they've started pointing the fingers at Latinos

and you are your white supremacists. Then they go to black men, your white suit. It's like this weird version of Oprah. You get a slow. You get a slow. You get a slur. Exactly. And you go, I don't think this is winning hearts and minds.

It's not. It's not. If Trump is this bad and people still prefer him over us, what are we doing wrong? Brianna Wu, welcome back to the show. Such a good time. I had such a good time. I was so nervous about my hit with you guys last time. Everyone told me, don't do it.

It's going to be hostile. And it was just a fantastic time. It was great for my career. Seth. Thank you all. Well, you're very welcome. But beyond that, I think we're sitting here in a very interesting moment. You're someone who's very active in supporting the Democratic Party. 100% proactive within it. And we're sitting here. Yeah. What happened? Well, you know, what didn't happen is they didn't listen to any of the stuff we talked about last time, which was dropping this identity politics bullshit. You know, they didn't take immigration. seriously. We did what we do as Democrats, which is we try to be people-pleaser. We said nothing

that was real. We appealed to the elites, and now our bet is made, and we're going to sleep in it for the next four years. Do you think it is four years? Because my suspicion is if Donald Trump is even remotely effective in governing and delivering the things that the people of this country asked him to do with such a landslide in terms of the electoral vote, the college, the House, Senate, everything. Yeah. Then I don't see why anybody would vote for the Democrats at the next election.

Until we get our stuff together, we have to give people a reason to vote for us. I, you know, Constantine, I really see this election is very straightforward. And I've had so many conversations with people. They don't like Trump,

but they don't like the Democratic elitists more. They hate us more. They hate progressives more. They hate the people that announce their pronouns more. They hate the people that do land acknowledgments more. They hate the people that derail every single conversation into racial grievance more. They are so sick of that. And until the Democratic Party can, like, back away from the abyss and turn into something that normal people are going to vote for again, yeah, Trump and the Republicans will stay in power.

That's just a fact. Brianna, you know what you were saying, and I was in agreement with you, and I think the reason is, is whatever you think about Trump, he's authentic. Yeah. He is who he is, like it or lump it, as we say in the UK. Yes. I see the people doing land acknowledgments, my pronouns are blah, and I see them as incredibly inauthent. 100%. It's completely fake.

There's a culture in the Democratic Party that I've had a front seat to, and this is how it works. Someone will go to a focus group and they will sit down and say, well, if you want to talk to black people, here's how you do it. Use these words. You want to talk to women, go use these words. You want to talk to Latinos, use these words. And what ends up coming is you're like a robot trying to go down the list and please every single member of the coalition.

And the result of that is we don't say anything that feels real as Democrats. So until we can just like get that out of our head, and start talking to working people like they are humans and not some dumb animal to be manipulated, the American people are going to reject us. And to be just really blunt with you, we don't seem to have learned any lessons when Trump won in 2016.

I'm not sure we're going to learn any lessons this time around. Do you think that is the power of ideology in that there seems to be a lot of Democrats who've imbibed this progressive ideology? I think it is that with the people that actually work in the Democratic Party I also think there's a tremendous

lack of willpower in our leadership class and our electance and they are, you know, you see this like, have y'all ever had a high-level Democrat you know, member of Congress from the Senate come on your show? No. We have invited them, by the way.

Why the hell would they say no to that? They're so scared of going into these environments where the questions aren't very controlled and the conversation isn't on their terms, I've seen this firsthand. It's just we are completely missing this entire new generation of media. Donald Trump went on Aidan Ross. He said some spicy stuff, but Donald Trump showed up. He showed that constituency. He cared what they had to say. And what happened with young white men? they voted for him overwhelmingly. We've got to have the guts to go into media environments that may not always be friendly to us. But here's the problem with that, Brianna. You can't go into that environment

if you're not authentic to who you are and if you're not honest. You can dislike what Donald Trump says, but you know that that's what he believes. Yes. Right. So the problem, I think, the reason that people on the Democrat side, and this is the same with the left in the UK, are less willing to engage in this, is that they're not actually being honest about what they believe. And in that case, if I was one of their advisors, I would definitely say to Kamala Harris, don't go on Rogan. Totally fair. Because he's going to ask you reasonable questions, and you're going to sound like an idiot because you can't answer them because you're not being honest. Yeah.

That's 100% it. We've gotten so comfortable in progressive spaces with never having our ideas challenged. And, you know, I see this, I think this is really emblematic right now with, you know, trans people. You know, our leaders in the trans movement, right now they're saying all this nonsense. They're saying, you know, this trans ideology had no factor in the election whatsoever. These ads didn't work. You know what? I've run a few television ads in the course of my career.

People don't budget $219 million for ads without sitting down and doing some focus groups and seeing if they're going to have salience. Of course this has had salience. And of course there's something that we're doing wrong. Of course we have a part to play in where we are today. But there's just no willingness with trans leaders to sit down and go, hey, you know what? The American people are not on board with our message.

They're actually really upset with us. What should we do differently? There's just no willingness to examine that. Well, you know, just on that point, when we first interviewed you, Sure. We got pushback from kind of people on the gender critical side. Oh, Brianna will use trans. I was like, oh, really?

I didn't know that. Because that's how the world used to be, with all respect. No one used to really care. That's right. And then these people came along, and they started shoving this in everyone's face. They started putting these books in people's schools. They started making an issue out of it where really the issue was, let's treat everybody as an individual. 100%.

And we've got so far away from that. It doesn't surprise me that people are annoyed about it. Sure. Because once you, and I said this, I still remember, I said this one of the first realizations I had when we first started the show and we first started talking about this. I was like, if you start fucking with people's kids, you're going to lose them very quickly. 100%. You know, I think you see this with the abortion issue, right? Democrats told ourselves that the only issue women care about is abortion.

But that's not true. If you don't know moms to know if you are sending messages to their kindergartners, inviting their kindergartners to fill out a box to tell you what their gender is or their neo pronouns, those moms are not going to like you very much. So of course we're turning them off. Yeah, to come back to your first point, I went 20 years without talking about being trans as part of my public profile. I just never wanted it to be what my career is about. But the truth is you look at these nut jobs.

that are driving our civil rights right now, I really worry if someone does not stand up and go, we've got to get this movement back to sanity, back to some public policy that people can agree with. I'm terrified about what's going to happen. There's a message you can give people, which is, look, this is my body, my life, I'm going to take this medication,

I will accept the responsibility myself, just let me go make my own choices. People are on board with that. They are not on board with, we're going to announce our pronouns when we meet each other. And if you screw that up, you're going to be socially ostracized. Like, there's just this entire culture that's gone with the trans movement that just seems crazy to me as a trans woman. And until that changes, we're going to keep losing ground. And it's a lovely parallel, actually, between the trans movement and the Democrat Party, which is when people don't agree with these type of activists,

we saw this with Carmack, Carmelah Harris, we immediately go to fascism. That's right. And you just listen to that. And as a reasonable person who is left leaning on a lot of things, I go, well, I'm just not going to engage with you. Yeah. Why should I? Yeah. It goes so extreme and so hyperbolic, so quickly.

Like, were either of you surprised with how Democrats reacted to this loss? What was it? The American people are racist. The American people are sexist. They want a fascist. the American people are transphobic. Is there any part of this where we look at ourselves in the mirror and go, what role did we as Democrats have to play in the situation we're in?

If Trump is this bad and people still prefer him over us, what are we doing wrong? And show me another Democratic operative that's willing to have that conversation. The ability to have real conversations is in such short supply in our party. and, may I add as well, it's not American people, it's Latino people. Of course. Now they've started pointing the fingers at Latinos and you are your white supremacist. Then they go to black men, your white, it's like this weird version of Oprah. Yes.

Where everyone's a white supremacist. You get a slur. You get a slur. Exactly. And you go, I don't think this is winning hearts and minds. It's not. It's not. I get called a transphab every single day. It's the most hilarious thing to me.

So where, you know, what I don't really understand about this is, you know, like if you have a friend who's got divorced and maybe he, you know, wasn't paying attention to his wife and maybe he wasn't great with the kid, whatever. Sure. And his wife is like, okay, we're done. And suddenly his eyes are open and he's like, oh, shit, I got to like, maybe I got to rethink things. Maybe I got to do this.

Maybe I got to do that. You know, this kind of loss, it has to wake you up. surely. Do you think it is, though? What is the evidence that's waking us up? I'm not saying there's a lot of evidence. Objectively, I do see one or two people cropping up. You're not the only one, but not many. But I just think the truth of it is from an outsider perspective, Brianna, is that if the Democrats don't sort themselves out, you're going to be out of power for 20 years. I agree. I fully agree. It's not like this is rocket science. This stuff. You said to me the last time we hung out about immigration and taking that seriously,

it's the most obvious decision you can possibly have. It's the most obvious position to take. The problem is not the American people. It's the fact that we are a party of elitists, and we are incapable of understanding that. Everything about our culture is just taking is so far away from a mechanic or a taxi driver or a teacher or just a working class person and we're just so busy smelling our own farts we can't even see this anymore so you know until they listen to what you were saying the last time around truly become a anti-corporate power party they're standing with normal people

and give up this ultra-messaged approach to everything we are permanently out of power exactly as she said so can i ask you something weird sure why are you not in favor of what's just happened? Or are you? No, of course I'm not. Why would it? I, you know, I truly think Trump is a risk to democracy. So the issues I care about, obviously trans health care,

I think NATO is fantastic. His, you know, his plans to change NATO and to make America less of a leader on the world stage. That gives me a lot of palms. But is, sorry, I... Please. I just want to explore this. Sorry, Francis. I don't want to take a minute. Do you, this is one of the things I'd love to, for us to get on record now, because I see you as a very sensible person on the left who's making a lot of good points. But I also think there has been a lot of misreading and misunderstanding of what Trump has said on many of these issues, which I'd love to explore with you. Let's do it. On the trans health care, which you mentioned, yes. Do you feel that for an adult like you, things are going to become more difficult under?

his presidency? Very possibly, yes. Because? Well, first of all, if he makes statements about, you know, you can see videos of him talking about ending gender ideology, and it's just very amorphous. I think that if you're looking at some of the trends like Florida, making it much harder for adults to get HRT, and things like Texas, rolling back gender changes for adults legally, and this is the way the Republican Party seems to be moving. So, When I look at the Republican Party, they've just won everything by spending a quarter billion dollars attacking people like me. And if that's worked in the past, what incentive did they not have to keep that pressure going? Well, were they attacking people like you, or were they saying enough of gender ideology in schools?

The message... It's a difference, isn't it? Well, if that was the argument, I could understand that, the ad I'm talking about was essentially equating people like me with a drag queen. and saying Trump stands, Kamala stands for, they, them, Trump stands for you, right? So kind of talking about me like I'm not even Hugh. But again, you see, the drag queen thing is, I think it's not about you.

It's about the fact that you have drag queen story hour. Sure. And people don't want that. Or this non-binary stuff. Like we're all in this giant soup together. I understand why you would feel that it's about you, but having spoken to a lot of people, people on the right about this issue. I don't think that's the mainstream view at all.

Sure. But you may be right. I don't know. So I think something I see with y'all is you are tremendously focused on comedians being able to tell jokes. That's something you are tremendously sensitive about. And from my perspective, I see that. And I'm like, it seems like, you know, like all these comedians, their careers are fine. I watch these specials. Seems like they're doing fine. I think because this is so key to your life, I think you are extraordinarily sensitive about things that could put that in danger.

That's how I feel about transitions. Fair enough. Yeah. Well, I hope that that doesn't transpire because I don't think that's what, I don't think that's a majority position from speaking to people. I don't think the people, I think that people that elect Republicans into power, I think at their core,

they are okay with adults making their own choices. I think that where it gets really Thorny is the elected Republicans have learned that there is power in going after us. And I'm scared about where that's going to go for the next four years. I understand. I really hope that they listen to that and act accordingly because I think that's an important distinction. But just to explore this more, what is so key to that is to have a new class of trans leaders that are not trying to defend the maximalist physician. Yes. Because the way that we've talked about children is reckless. Yes. It is beyond reckless. The way that we are, you know,

people that have done no real work with transition and are not medically transitioning are asking to go into women's locker rooms with their penis intact and show that to women. That is crazy. And you're not seeing our class of trans leaders denounce that. So until they're sainer hands, driving the ship, the Republicans will go after people like me. The problem is, Brianna, and I agree with everything you say, is the left, more broadly, is it's a purity cult in a West. In that the moment you go, well, I get what you're saying about this, but actually have you thought about why?

And I disagree with X because of ABCD and E. That's the moment they go, there's a door transphoned. Do you think I haven't experienced this? Yeah, I know, but what I'm saying is you can't win, get better, have better ideas. I know. And I don't know where you go from here. I feel like I'm crazy because there's so few people on the left willing to do this. It is just maddening.

And do you know how many friends I lost after I came on your show last time? That's what we can do for you. Come on the show. You'll lose friends. I had people like chewing me out over text message for not pushing back on certain things with you. And I'm trying to tell them. It's like I wanted to show up and have a conversation.

I don't think it's helpful to be combative. I just, I don't know. You're welcome to be combative. I really want you to put the case because it's always the most interesting thing is finding out where your picture of the world is wrong. Sure. That's what I find most exciting

because that's how you get better. Right. This is one of the reasons I always thought of myself as being on the left, because when I was on the left, it was all about science and facts and reality. That was what I thought we were for. Yes. Right? So you're welcome to be as combative as you want. I don't mind being combative.

I'm saying that there is an approach of walking in and assuming bad failure that does not make the conversation. No, you operated in good faith, and that's how we tried to be with you. So coming back to the other thing you mentioned, and I'm sure there's, NATO. Do you really think Donald Trump wants to stop America being the leader on that? Or do you think he's using the threat to get Europeans to pay their way? Do you really think Donald Trump is flying 4D chess like that? I actually do, yeah. Okay.

The reason is that he's been talking about Europeans not paying their way for a very long time. And he's like, you guys need to pay for your own defense. And as a European, I totally agree. Yes. I want us to be strong and capable, and then we can be a powerful ally to the United States, and then we can be like, guys, guys, maybe let's not invade Iraq, and maybe the United States will listen. Do you not think one of the first things Trump is going to do is to withdraw our support for Ukraine into wind down that come? Like, I think there's a host of stuff he's going to do.

Like, I think you and I are probably more aligned on his Israel policy. I think he's going to do stuff like, this was my dilemma in voting, that, I did think Trump was going to be better on Israel, which is one of my top issues. But I think when it comes to anything involving Russia or Putin, I don't have faith that his primary goal is the United States. Well, we don't know what will happen exactly. Yes. But I don't know if you know this.

When Russia invaded Ukraine, I was one of the people who was incredibly pro-Ukraine and supporting Ukraine's fight for its independence. And I am to this day. Yes. But what I said from day one, literally day one, was Ukraine was never going to win this. Right. For Ukraine, a win is where Ukraine trades land for permanent security. Yes.

That, I believe, is what Donald Trump is going to attempt to do. Sure. So this is a problem. And forgive me for framing it like this, but it is true. Yes. The left made Ukraine an LGBTQ style issue. Right? You put up a flag and you go, you know, we are for Ukrainian rights, right?

Yes, yes. But that was never on the table. Yes. What was on the table is for Ukraine to make sure that this invasion could never be repeated because this had already happened in 2014. Right. And the reason that Ukraine fought and the reason men died and the reason that they went to war was to ensure that their country could exist.

Yes. Right. The way that will happen ultimately in the end, is by having some kind of peacekeeping force or by having a demilitarized zone or by having NATO membership eventually. And what I'm hearing now is that is what they're working towards. So it's not about abandoning Ukraine.

It's about recognizing the reality. And I have friends in Ukraine who are very pro-Ukraine, obviously, who are like, Constantine, you need to tell people in the West, like, we can't end this war anymore because the Russians hate us, we hate the Russians, someone needs to step in and help us. end it. So that's how I see it. Sure. And maybe you don't. No, I think that's fair. Like, if you look at, you know, the United States withdrawal from Afghanistan, how long did we just

kick that can down the road? It was horrible. Like, I did not like seeing the Taliban, you know, what they did to women there, but we kind of got caught into this forever war. So I hear what you're saying. I think there is a seed of doubt reasonable people can have about where Donald Trump's loyalty he's a lot. He does seem to have an affinity with Putin and other dictators around the world that gives me a lot of pause. So, you know, I also think it is, it really concerned me. Rex Tillerson, who I thought, like, he would not have been the Secretary of State I would have wanted, but you cannot argue that man is not qualified. In the way he came to a conclusion, the way it came to foreign policy, he could not work with Donald Trump. I just, I just, I,

I don't have a lot of faith that on the world stage, this is the leader that we need in this moment. Okay. And what are some of the other reasons that you're not happy about his election? With Trump? Yeah. A really big one is inflation. You know, I think that both parties are responsible for this to a certain degree, but the amount of debt the United States has right now is just simply unprecedented. Senate. And I think the stability of our currency, if the Republicans get into power and do another big tax giveaway for the rich and put it on the credit card, I genuinely worry about the stability of our currency. I think anyone does. But I suppose given the binary choice of Kamala Harris or Donald Trump, was Kamala Harris likely to reduce the level of debt? Historically, Democrats have

been the ones to pay down the debt that Republicans like Bill. up. That's just simply true. That's interesting. Well, we'll see what happens. Yeah. You know, Breonna, I was at the Trump rally, which Joe Biden called me personally garbage, so thank you for that. The way Madison has Square Garden. Yeah.

And I was watching Tulsi Gabbard come to the stage, RFK Jr., Elon Musk, former donor to the Democrat Party. And I was thinking... Was RFK there? Yeah. Oh, I must have missed that. I must have gone to the toilet. Sorry, RFK.

Yeah. RFK was there. And I was thinking to myself, this is very interesting because this isn't a traditional Republican Party, which I'm seeing now. This is something else entirely. But it shows the failure of the Democrat Party

the fact that you have Tulsi and RFK there. Sure. And Elon. And Elon. And you go to, so I guess my question, is what is this new Republican Party that we're seeing? And how does the Democrat Party try and take back the center? So let me just challenge that for a second because I perceive you, I know your critics

are not going to agree with me. I see all is reasonably in the middle willing to explore different ideas. I genuinely do. Do you personally find it's rewarding to be in the middle and to give fair shake. Like, you take it from everyone. Yes, right? I have certainly experienced this. Like, look at trans stuff. I get it from the trans extremists, and I get it from turfs now. All day, every day, everyone is mad at me. So when you're talking about Tulsi Gabbard, what I have felt is I've kind of come out as a critic of the Democratic Party and the way we're doing business, there's every incentive for me to leap to the other side and then to just become someone who's advocating for a Republican Party.

There would be tons of money and media and personal power in that for me. It's not who I am and it's not what I want to do. So I can't, I don't know Tulsi Gabbard enough to say if it's like good faith or bad faith, but I think the incentives are there for a certain number of Democrats that cannot stand with this party to move to the other side. But I'm imagining what Tulsi would say is I am never going to be. allow to implement the policies that I want if I remain within the Democrat Party. Fair?

So my only choice if I want to implement my policies is to go to the Republican Party and then I've got more chance. Yeah. It's a fair criticism. I mean, do you think I even thought about this for the last 10 years? Is it worth trying to save the Democratic Party in this form? Can it be done? if I had to guess, like you said, not in the next 10 years, not in the next 20.

That's, sorry, go ahead. No, because I was going to, because that is incredibly damning. Because what you're actually saying, Brianna, and let's be honest about this, the Democrat Party is not fit for purpose in its current incarnation. It's not able to win elections, so I can't disagree with you. So what is the point of remaining within a party if it doesn't want to change, if it's not interesting in appealing to its core voters, its former call voters, I don't understand what people are meant to do. They're just going to remain within it because that's what you've always done.

That way madness lies, surely. Well, you know, I do like to pick battles that I can't win. So we'll just have to see what happens. Yeah, because, and I'm not trying to be, you know, I just, I am upset because it's so important that this country has a left that is sane. Of course. And it's going to challenge the right,

because people go where right wing, but what both Constantine and I have talked about many times is that if you have an unchallenged right who are going to sweep through the nation, they are going to do the same thing that the left did when they took over institutions. And then there's because there's going to be cancellations. Well, Jesus says you can't say that, so shut your mouth. I would say this, that Francis, I think there's an appetite in the Democratic Party right now in this moment to finally kick out the communists.

I really do. I think there's an appetite to get rid of these people to have the same project as Theocratic Islam. I really do think there's an attitude where we are going to be willing to get rid of our worst actors, including this French trance stuff. No matter what happens, the Democratic Party is not going to stand as strongly with that as they have. So maybe it's a first step. Well, it will have to be a first step. I think, you know, a phrase that I think is accurate as personnel is policy. What do you mean about that?

It means that when you have people who are ideologically possessed. in your party, you have to get rid of them before you can change the direction of the party. Because if you have a party or an organization or a company or a business or a sports team that is filled with people who have a particular vision of how that should all be operated, it's not enough for that organization to have a bad tax year or for the team to lose a few games. you have to get rid of the bad apples. You just do. Otherwise, they're going to poison everything.

God, that's so depressing. It really is because we have a generation of elected Democrats that just are these messaged, focused-tested creatures that just they're going to say what is most politically convenient and there's no substance behind that. Well, fine, but the most politically convenient thing to say now is we got it wrong. But we're not saying that. We're not saying that.

Here, let me challenge you on this. Sure. What do you think is most likely to happen once Trump takes power in January? I think we're going to have resistance 2.0. And just in case your viewers are in the UK, what happened when Donald Trump took power in 2016? Is everyone, myself included, dug our heels in as hard as we could, and said, we're just going to oppose everything. And we quadrupled down on identity politics.

Women did it. You know, various racial minorities did it. And it was just the Republicans and the Trump, they're all Satan. And I think so much of that playbook in the aftermath of it is what led Trump exactly back to power. So that the Democrats this time around can be smarter and say, you know, what lessons did we learn from fighting Trump the last time? Is it going to be a scandal of the week every single day of the week? Or are we going to try to, like, is there a way we can work with the Republicans? Like, where can we be in good faith and find some things we can work on like Israel?

And then oppose them when it's like the mess I expect to happen with the Justice Department. I think you're going to see the way the party react to this. I think it's going to tell you a lot about where we're going to go from the next quarter of us. Well, right. And so on very much on that, Brian, and let me say something to people who are watching this because you are here and not because we're here. Right. Did they exist? Yes. Everyone tunes in for us. They tune in. It's a sheer plan. What the left needs right now is humility. Yeah. It needs to say, we got this wrong. That's true. We made mistakes. And now we're going to take some time, maybe quite a lot of time, to shut the fuck up.

Yeah. And we're going to listen. Yeah. And we're going to listen to the American people. That's true. We're going to listen to the people who are telling us why we got the result that we got. And by the way, the reason that they really need to do this now is we're not in 2016 anymore. That's right. In 2016, number one, Donald Trump hadn't already had a term in power. Number two, the media were very, very powerful. They're not anymore.

Yeah. This election shows you Donald Trump could govern for the next four years and never pay attention to anything that the New York Times or the Washington Post or the L.A. times right he could do that and he's not running for re-election that's right right and he has the house the senate and the presidency and the supreme court and the supreme court so if you want to put all of that together yeah this is not the time for a resistance 2.0 because nobody has to give a shit anymore that's right nobody you know i saw this in i think in seattle they they tried to have another one of these protests and you got shut down straight away no one's going to put

up with this bullshit anymore. How about the women's march? Right. They just announced a women's march. I was at the first one. I was thrilled to be there. Do you think I'm going to that one? No.

Now that I find out they're led by anti-Semites, of course I'm not. Like the curtain has been pulled back on this strategy of identity politics. And the way it's not about dignity for everyone. It's about an inverted hierarchy of oppression where every group is trying to get more power for themselves. Yeah. So this is what I tweeted, I think, the night of the election, the left needs a resistance now.

That's right. And the resistance is you resist identity politics, you resist racial divisiveness, you resist anti-Americanism, you resist hostility towards the Western project, and you embrace freedom, freedom of expression, growth, right? Enough of this declineism, you know, America's days are behind all of this crap, right? Yes, yeah. And if the left did that, then it would be interesting. Because there are a lot of people, like you said, who voted for Donald Trump, who didn't want to.

And all they need is a candidate who gives them permission not to have to do that. So I've thought about this a lot. Like, I've thought a lot about running for office again. And the issues I've had with my voice and speaking are the big issue. The reason I'm not going to do that just because I could not put in the same, you know, 16-hour days speaking that I did a decade ago. But I really thought about this. Like if we're going to turn this party around, there were a ton of women that ran in 2016

with the intention of standing up for Donald Trump. And that was a good impulse. What I think we need in this moment is an army of normal people on the left that are not brainbroken with this identity politics stuff, or maybe they've just changed their mind on the efficacy of it like I have,

to really retake the party and refocus it on stuff that's going to have salience with the American people. Like maybe the thing we're waiting for is not the Democratic Party. Maybe it's us. I think that's right. I think until there are people and a wide sway of people who are going to stand up and stand up to this nonsense, it's never going to change. Because as somebody who is half Latin, let me tell you something. When you use the word woke, Kamala Harris, he uses the word woke. Every Venezuelan and Cuban is watching that go, or what you really mean is,

el socialism. And they're thinking, going, eh, uh, eh, ah, I ain't going near that. I don't want it. Yes. And the tragedy is Trump actually was quite a weak candidate. Yes.

He was weak. Yes. And by weak, I mean flawed. And if you had somebody who was competent, who knew, what to do who was politically savvy, who was smart, who was sharp, who had good ideas, you would have taken him to the cleaner. Of course. So why didn't we do that? We didn't even have a primary. We spent four years pretending Joe Biden was not senile. Of course he was. Like the

delusions we're willing to tell ourselves. It's truly embarrassing. You know what it reminds me It reminds me of rehab. You know, 24 years ago, I went to rehab for polyaddiction, and everyone there, every single addict has a lovely story about why they're there and everything is someone else's fault. We had a doctor there who was shooting himself up with what is it called, Propheaval, Michael Jackson drug. Wonderful excuses about why he got to do that.

Until we can have this come-to-Jesus moment in the party, I just don't see us having a way forward. And the problem is with the ideology that a lot of Democrats imbibed is that it is victimhood. Yes. And if you see yourself as a victim, like you said, you're never going to take accountability.

That's right. And if you never take accountability, you're never going to change. Oh, my God. Francis, I have to say this to you because this is what drives me crazy about this current trans movement. You know, when I transitioned over 20 years ago,

the message was, Your fate is in your own hands, right? If you pass, that's up to you. If you're employed, that's up to you. You have to learn these skills so you can build a good life for yourself. That's the way it was for a long time. Instead, the trans movement has taken on this victimhood. And I'm opposed to it not just because it's politically cowardly,

but it is taking an entire generation of girls that are just like me and telling them the thing that isn't going to, the thing that you're waiting for to make your life better is a communist utopia or gender to be destroyed. And all, it's 100% in your hands. Where's the part of the left that is willing to take agency and to say, we can do this? This fate is in our hands. Let's go. We are empowered to build something better for ourselves.

I think it is just increasingly in short supply. And I think higher education has a huge role to play in the way that grit has just disappeared. And I think it's higher education. And I also think that you need people who didn't go to Harvard, who didn't go to IVs, who run their own businesses, who have grafted, who are on the left, but are grounded in reality. Yes. I think part of the reason I'm different is because I grew up in Mississippi. I didn't grow up in some safe blue state. I've talked to these people. I grew up with them.

And, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've been to an event in Massachusetts. And the Harvard to Democratic politician pipeline is ultra real. You just move them through. And there are people that talk about poverty like it's something they read in a textbook. And it shows with their attitude. Yeah. And it's patronizing. Of course it is.

Well, one of the things I thought was a real, This might seem like a niche thing to bring up for some people, but I thought Harris's choice of VP was very telling. Yes. Because Josh Shapiro, who's, he's Pennsylvania. Yes. Is he governor or is he? Yeah, he's the governor of Pennsylvania.

Right. I listened to one podcast that he did. Yes. And I was like, holy shit, I have never heard a Democrat talk like this since like 20 years ago. Because he was like, the problem with Donald Trump is he's shit-talking America. We need a strong, I mean, we need business, we need this. I was like, whoa, where did this guy come from? And she didn't pick him, because she's pro-Israel.

Yes. Is that basically, am I right now? That's how I see it. I mean, I think it was multifactorial. I do think Waltz had some really foxy, like Midwestern charm, but I 100% agree with your assessment. I think she was so focused on winning the Arab vote in Michigan that she left one of the best politicians I've seen.

seen in my lifetime on the table. And from Pennsylvania too. But what I'm really talking about is that this is a very crude analysis, but I do think there's some truth to it. The Democrat party has become the party of femininity to some extent. And it lacks that masculine strength element that appeals to a lot of Americans. It just does. Right. And someone like him has that. Yeah. And the rejection of him seems to me like a symbol of something, which is like, We don't want this kind of energy, you know. Do you not think Wals has a kind of dad energy about him? No.

There's no strength projection there whatsoever. That's why the nickname Tampon Tim Stock. Yeah. Because you can make up whatever nickname you want about people, but it's not going to work. Yeah. Unless there's some kind of resonance with it. Do you see what I mean? That makes sense.

Yeah. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with femininity. Sure. Just like there's nothing wrong with masculinity. It's that when they're taking to excess and we're not paired with the other and when they're not balance, that's when you start to get into problems. It's hard to argue. Look at the gender gap between the parties. Look at the way we're hemorrhaging younger voters. I think it's so telling. It's so obviously a problem that the Democratic Party has. It's not that we don't even have

any young men like a message for them. It's that we don't even have any people like stars in our party that appeal to younger men. That's how much we've completely ignored that part of the population. Well, it's difficult to. to get those people on board when your message, not your message, but the message of the kind of the people who've been the mouthpieces of the Democrat parties, if you're a man, you're a piece of shit. Yeah, shut up. Shut up.

We don't want to hear it. It's time for you to be quiet. Your time's over. The future's female. And vote for us. And vote for us. Right? Like, the future is not female and the future is not male.

The future is men and women working together. That's how it is. That's it. That's it. You know, I've looked so deeply into, you know, they've done a lot of study. about why diversity training doesn't work. It's because if you try to invert the hierarchy of oppression and put, you know, like disabled, black, trans, you know,

activist at the top and white men at the bottom, it doesn't lead to a better workplace. It leads to a worse workplace. If you're stressing messages of we are a team and we all need to get some stuff done together and treat each other with respect, that works very well. That needs to be the message of the Democratic Party.

Can I ask you a question? Sure. Did they think they were going to win? Yes. Why? So this is, y'all may not agree with this. We built up a one of the most impressive get-out-the-vote operations I've ever seen. Like we invested a ton of money in that, the relational organizing that Democrats have been doing.

It does work. And, you know, the feeling on the ground was that the polls were, close, but we had a get-out-the-vote operation on election day that was going to push us over the top. So I genuinely did think we were going to win because of that. Because you were going to mobilize the base. Correct. This is something I didn't appreciate until I started working in politics is when you're, you build up a universe of potential voters and you literally put them in a database and then like three, four days before the election, this just constantly about canvassing them and calling them and making sure they get out to vote. And our operation

for that this time around was one of the most sophisticated I've ever seen. The problem was our messaging leading up to that was so shitty that the number of people that we could get to come out for us. It was clearly less than we thought. You know, this may sound a bit harsh, Brianna, but the fact that people within the Democrat Party thought that they were going to win and you look at the outcome speaks to me of delusion. Really? Do you think so? Yeah. The polls were objectively very close.

They were. But reality wasn't. Yeah. Reality wasn't. That's right. And by the way, you know, delusion may be too strong a word. We all get things wrong. Sure. We all make mistakes.

We all misunderstand reality. That's why I was shocked when Trump was elected in 2016. I couldn't believe it. I still did stand up back then. I didn't believe that. I used to do jokes about Donald Trump. I used to believe that Russia collusion and all of that. I used to do jokes about that.

Sure. One of my strongest jokes was like, you know, to say Russians don't understand democracy. We got Trump elected, didn't we? Right? That was one of the, and it crushed. But it wasn't true. Yeah.

And in 2016, when it happened, and when Brexit happened, which I didn't vote for. My answer to that was to go, my map of the world must be wrong. What is missing from my picture of the world? So I went and I watched every interview that Steve Bannon ever gave. That's true. In which he explained how they won the election.

Yes. And it made a lot more sense to me than half of America is racist and transphobic. So there's an opportunity for people to do that. And as Francis said, you know, for all the criticisms that we get for being on this side or not on this side or whatever, I believe and have always believed that for a country to function, you need two sides that are both trying to make that country great. Sure. I agree. And it's just like a marriage. A marriage only works if both parties want the marriage to work. That's right.

And the country is like that. And, you know, your fellow Americans who voted for Trump or your fellow Americans, who voted for Harris, you guys are going to have to work together. I'm just saying this is like a bit of a marriage counselor here. You need to work together for this country to be great. I agree. And you can't have half the country, you know, demonized, whichever way. It's just not going to work. I mean, what I have found is I've made a political mission to reach out across the aisle

and to try to develop working relationships with Republicans. And I can tell you what I have found. is, and this is hand to God, and this is really damning of the Democrats, is my friendships with Republicans are so much easier and drama-free than my relationships with my own sign, because there's just this understanding that we don't agree on everything. So I think, like, what I think we are so far past the point where it's time for Americans to start talking to one another again.

Reach out across the aisle. I think that we agree on a lot more things, and we disagree on. And I think it's exactly as you said. Like, we can't just dig our heels in again for the next four years' resistance 2.0 and just oppose them on everything. We've got to try to understand their voters

and we've got to develop a message that's going to appeal to those voters if we're serious. Because, and this is, to put in a positive note, this is a real moment of opportunity. Yeah. This is an opportunistic moment if the Democrat Party are willing to see it to go fresh blood, new ideas.

Trump's going to be in power for four years. Let's be fair, he pisses people off. And by the end of his term in 2020, people were tired. 20, 28. No, no, sorry, by the end of his first term, people were really tired. They were tired of the outrage. They were tired of, you know, the constant tweeting, the back and forth. Sure.

If you get someone in who is sane, who is moderate, who can appeal to both sides, who is pro-America, a lot can change. I think the distance in our opinions is I've worked with the Democratic Party enough that my assessment of our elected officials to be able to do that is I don't feel great about it. Wow. Really? Yeah. Well, you're on the inside. So we're just two guys watching from the outside. If that's what you're saying, well, look, in that case, I'm afraid the, you know, if you're on the left, you're going to have to sit and watch, you know, a decade or more of a unconstrained Republican Party doing the things that its voters elected it to do.

And look, and if the left doesn't want a reform, then maybe that's what America needs. I don't know. It's a dark future. Well, it is what it is. If you, if you, you know, I tweeted what I thought was a Thomas Sowell quote. on the election night. It turns out it's a nine-rand quote, which is... I saw you get your Twitter note on that. Yeah, that's my first community no ever.

Did you? But the quote is Berlin, which is why I assumed it was a sole quote. It's a nine-rand quote, which is you can ignore reality. Yeah. But you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

And that's where we are. So that takes into something I wanted to challenge you on today. Oh, please. You put out a video kind of finally admitting that you were a Zionist, I think, or more sympathetic to Israel

after kind of being on the fence for a lot. It was nothing to do with being a Zionist. It's a very weird term because the people who use it positively mean like completely a different thing to the people who use it negatively. Sure. I wanted to ask, how did you kind of avoid a position on this for so long? Or you keep giving this thing in the public like, oh, I just haven't thought about that? How did you go so long without kind of examining? Oh, I have a deeply controversial and old-fashioned view that if you don't know about something, you shouldn't comment on it.

Sure. I hold that same view, but why did you not for so long? someone who has a full-time job, a young family, and very little spare time, has never been to Israel, has never... Really? No, I've never been to Israel. I've never been to Gaza. I've never, you know, people assume that because my grandfather was an atheist Jew in the Soviet Union, that means I know lots of things about Israel. I've actually talked to Jewish people. They're really upset about that because they've been like, oh, Constantine has this family background. Why isn't he very vocal in our side? Well, look, for the purposes of, like, jokes and stand-up idol, as well, you know, you know, being Jewish, blah, blah, blah.

I'd make jokes about it. And Francis, you know, makes lots of jokes about me being Jewish and stuff. And I do to some extent feel that that ethnic element, you know, has contributed to the way that I think and, you know, lots of things. But it's not the centerpiece of my identity. I understand what you're talking about, because I felt the same way about this with trans stuff for so long. It informed who I was, but it wasn't what I wanted to be defined by.

In fact, I'm very resentful about the fact I've had to. to step out publicly and do this because it's simple. Or, of course, I can identify with that. But when it comes to, like, Israel and the right of Israel to exist, where do you kind of fall on this? Oh, I can tell you where my thinking was from the beginning. So it's an issue that I'm deeply uninformed about. Sure.

Or have been. Probably am to some extent still. When we first had a guest on the show, it would have been, when was Melanie Phillips the first time? 2019. So Melanie Phillips, who we had, had on recently again. She came on and we talked about many things, the gradual self-destruction of the left, ironically. And then we talked a bit about Israel. And truthfully, as I said to her

in our recent interview, I was not particularly persuaded. And the reason is that from my very basic reading, I know a lot of people will get upset about this, the history of the creation of the state of Israel does not seem to me like a black and white issue. It's not. Right. Right. Right. So to the extent that that is the case, I found it difficult to have a particularly strong position on it because I was like, well, this isn't a black and white issue. I don't know a lot about it. I don't necessarily support people coming from some other place to what was once their historic homeland, moving everyone out, killing people as they did to some extent, etc. I don't think that's entirely it happened. I understand the argument. I'm not saying that's the truth. I'm saying that's a lot of the perception that exists, right? as an uninformed person, listening to many of those arguments, you can see why you might be hesitant

or reluctant to jump into it. And I still wouldn't claim to know what the truth of the creation of the state of Israel is or any of that. But my video was about the war that Israel is prosecuting against Hamas and now Hezbollah. And that, to me, is a very clear issue. Yes. Because I've listened to the arguments of the people who are against and pro. And that's why we had Bass and Yusuf on the show Norman Finkelstein. And I've discussed with things with people like Save Danamas on his podcast. And just gone, I'm dumb and uninformed. Explain to me what Israel should have done on October 8. That's right. And none of them have an answer. No. No. And so as long as that's the case, and as long as the other arguments that people are making about that issue don't make sense,

well, then the arguments don't make sense. If someone comes along and makes a credible persuasive argument to me why that video and my article is incorrect, I will update my map of the world again. Fair enough. I think, you know, we've talked a lot about this, you know, leftist inability to grapple with reality. Respectfully with the, you know, kind of Islamist side,

I see a lot of these same thinking patterns. You will talk about events or things like, look at the, you know, the events that happened in Instagram last night as we're recording this. If people don't know, just Jews being hunted down by Muslims in the street and brutally beaten. And what happens? This is this playbook automatically comes out. It's the Jews fault. And it's because they were saying this before and that justifies it.

This is a pattern over and over again where there's not accountability that's willing to be taken. It's always on someone else. Like, this is what I've found since engaging post-October 7th. I'm not going to tell you there's not crazy Zionists. I've dealt with tons of, right? But I think there is a very, in my estimation, from what I've seen, I think there's a wide distance in the intellectual honesty that one side has versus the other. Yeah, I agree.

And, you know, to a very significant extent, I just think that people are being extremely dishonest. I have no problem people having an intellectual position if they're consistent with their own behavior. But the truth is America would never in a million years except being attacked by thousands of rampaging, raping, terrorists without flattening whatever country had perpetrated that atrocity. So for people to sit in the comfort of America by their swimming pool and be like, Oh, Israel should be, no, no, no, no. That's not what any sensible country would do. And by the way, forgive me, but I think that's one of the reasons that people did vote for Donald Trump, because they're like, he, no one's going to fuck with us when he's president.

Wait, are you kidding? And also what Joe Biden did with Iran, where he gave them money, he emboldened them, he empowered them, and then the Iranians went, you know, we've got all this money. You know what we're going to do? Let's start a religious war. Yeah, Francis, it is one of the things educating myself on all of this post-October 7. It is a mind fuck, if you'll forgive my language, to discover that, like, Mike Pompeo, it's 100% right on Iran, and the Democrats' position on this, appeasement, is dead wrong. It's making the entire region far more unsafe. And, you know, to come back to your point, do you think if Canada had launched 8,000 missiles at the United States this year, a lot?

that we would just sit here and take it? Of course not. And Israel, it's so disappointing to me that Israel in the last three months has taken out the world's trash for it. You know, they've taken out Hamas, they've hurt Hezbollah, they've gone after the IRGC. And, you know, you would think Biden would be like, thank you, Israel, job well done. We've been trying to kill that guy for 20 years behind the Marine barracks bombing. Instead, it's wagging our finger at him. So hopefully this is something Trump will do. Well, right. And do you know what this comes back to, you know, to go up a level to the philosophical level of this? It comes back to what the point I made to you about femininity and masculinity. Sure. The left and the West has become very, very uncomfortable with the use

of force and strength. Yes. And the right, I know that people talk about the forever wars. And to some I think they're right in America, although I don't support the isolationist position even remotely. But what Donald Trump, I think, understands is the idea that human beings have known for millennia, which is peace through strength. That's right. There is no other way to have peace. That's right. When you make yourself weak, you expose yourself.

And people will come after you. And this is something that, again, forgive me for making it male, female or whatever. the masculine mindset is more cognizant of because men go through every day and you are actually a unique person to have this discussion with perhaps because you have both experiences to some sort of some sort.

Men go through their ordinary lives with a constant threat of physical violence. And women have a different dimension to it. I appreciate it. It's not like women aren't afraid of being physically assaulted, of course they are. But it's much more normal for men. Yeah.

Like if I go up to a guy in the street and slap him in the face. He's going to punch me back. That's right. If you're a woman, a bit different, right? Well, you may not do that in the first place. Yeah, I got beaten up plenty when I was a child. Yeah. I understand what you're talking about. Do you see what I mean? I think that there is a delusion in the Democratic Party that wars end with peace negotiations. And that's not always the truth. Most wars end with their enemy being killed and destroyed and vanquished, which is what Israel is doing with Hamas.

which I think is the right call. So I don't know. I think it's, I think it is a time for moral clarity. And I think Iran has destabilized the Middle East. I think there's been a Cold War between Saudi Arabia and Iran that has just been terrible forever and in the region, not just Israel. And I think the IRGC is so weak in this moment,

which is why they've been unable to counterattack Israel, that if America and Donald Trump specifically can stand strong with Israel and put pressure on that utterly corrupt regime, I think it is one of my biggest hopes for a Trump presidency. You know, when I see the current incarnation of the left, they are completely stuck within the realm of their ideology. Yes. And as a result of that, you are not in reality. And if you do not live in reality, you are never going to find practical solutions to problems. And I see that with the left, with the way they talk about Palestine, and let me make it clear, it's awful that children are dying.

Of course. It's awful that civilians are dying. That is war, and that is desperately unfortunate. However, Palestine, Lebanon are glorified proxy wars because they are being funded by Iran. That's right. And this idea that you are going to appease Iran and that they are going to, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're not. somehow is going to bring peace to the Middle East, is quite frankly demented. That's crazy.

Because let's say they get their wish and Israel no longer exists. Do you think that's going to bring peace to the Middle East? Or do you think the Shias and the Sunnis, who are together in this holy war, now are going to look at each other and go, actually, I don't like you. They're going to have a civil war between each other. And you're going to see an Islamic civil war in that region. But they don't want to address that because that is deeply unpleasant because what that means, is that you have to engage with reality,

and they don't want to do that because they want to be morally virtuous within the paradigm of their ideology. Yeah, I've thought about this a lot, because, you know, like a lot of people on the left, the first time the Trump administration happened, the Muslim ban happened, quote-unquote Muslim ban. And just naturally, as someone that's on the left,

you're like, Muslim ban, discriminating against someone on the basis of religion, this is a bad idea. But so much of what I've thought about post-October 7th is if you look at the countries that this ban, which came from Obama, you know, it's like these are countries with people that have some really dangerous ideology. There's a threat to American citizens. At the very least, we've got to aggressively vet the people we are letting in to make sure they are not going to start their own Amsterdam incident here. in this country. So I'm so much more, I think that October 7th lifted the illusions from a lot of people's eyes across the right and the left. And I think we're going to see those kinds of issues grappled with more honestly this time. And I think that it's important that you do that,

because unless the left grapple with it more honestly, and to put it quite frankly, take out your trash. Yeah. Also, it's just a political leader. Do you think the American people stand with, like, are universities being taken over by terrorist fans? You know, like, it's embarrassing that we were not able to denounce this stuff. Like, standing with Israel, in my view, is the most obvious moral call I've ever seen in my life. So that's how I feel.

Well, Brianna, I hope people listen to you within the party. And I think, as I said, you know, we need a good left and we need a good right. And I hope that that eventually manifests, whether it will immediately or not. That's an entirely different question. I hope we can turn our party around. And the next time I see we're talking all about the problems in the Republican Party because we've fixed all of ours. That would be amazing.

Sounds good to me. Yeah. Sounds good to me. Breanna, I feel like we've talked about all the things that we should be talking about, which is why we can now head over to Substack, where our audience can ask you their questions. Amazing. Head on over there now. Brianna, I have long faulted the leadership of the DNC for not cultivating new younger Democratic leaders long term

and promoting instead elders like Biden and woke hires like Kamala. I don't even know who they are. Is the DNC leadership beyond public influence? And if not, how? I wish we'd gotten into this. We can get into it now. Ryan Reynolds here from IntMobil. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month.

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