TRIGGERnometry - "Women Have Been Scammed" - Esther Krakue

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Starting point is 00:00:20 Right now, save 83% off the two-year plan. Get started today at IPVanish.com slash audio and take control of your privacy with IPVANFish. We don't really have a frank conversation because we don't understand the stratifications when it comes to race and identity and culture and class. And they can't seem to get their heads around the fact that maybe these people think differently to them. Because they're not interested. They generally don't care. I often say that the most socially conservative people in this country are ethnic minorities. But that's not a conversation they're willing to have.

Starting point is 00:00:52 But you, a white woman, are happy to say that it's not real diversity because she doesn't think the things that you think she should think. And that is so offensive on so many levels. but this kind of person goes to bed at night, feeling good about herself. She thinks, yep, I've put the world to right. I'm now at a point that if you have people like that running the country, every time you see someone who's not white or male or straight, you know to some extent they're a diversity hire, and it's actually damaging the mindsets of these people.

Starting point is 00:01:16 I never want to feel like a diversity hire because it's so offensive. I'd rather just go back home. I'd rather go back home and struggle with everyone else, because for me, that's not meritocracy. That's an insult to my hard work. if you look at the single motherhood rate in sort of black African communities is about 40% in black Caribbean communities about 62%.

Starting point is 00:01:33 That's a 22% disparity. I mean, the single motherhood rate in the Indian community is 6%. Right? How many sort of primarily Indian-based gangs do you see around the country? I mean, unless they're about to... Well, yeah, unless they're bursting out into song every two minutes.

Starting point is 00:01:48 It's like you just, you don't see that. I have a huge respect for Indian and sort of South Asian communities in this country because I think they get it. And I think sort of, even black African families that are, you know, Christian or Muslim, but keep their family intact. I don't think they understand how much of a credit they are to the society and how much really they are holding Britain together.

Starting point is 00:02:14 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constance and Kisson. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a writer, broadcast and political commentator. Esther Craker, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's great to have you on.

Starting point is 00:02:32 It's been a long time coming. I know. We're big fans of yours. You do great stuff. For those people who don't know who you are you, tell everybody who are you, how are you where you are? What has been your journey through life that brings you to be sitting here talking to us? Well, I'm Esther. I'm a writer and a broadcaster, but I'm also someone who makes a lot of noise on Twitter. That's probably where you see me. I'll get into these moments where I have to rant about something and that gets me in a lot of trouble. But I moved to the UK when I was 14 from Ghana and it was mostly just for an education. I was here throughout secondary school and university. I studied politics in French at University of Bristol.

Starting point is 00:03:10 And I just started working after uni, got a normal job, but I was always very politically conscious. There was something I was very passionate about. I debated all through school and uni. So I was always the kind of person that liked to sort of engage with people intellectually. And how I do what I do now, I got involved with a student grassroots organization called Turning Point UK, which is the UK version of Turning Point US.

Starting point is 00:03:30 And it was very much focused on kind of having some sort of conservative outlet for students and young people, because I, obviously, you know, in higher education, that's not really a thing. And so I started doing videos for them. I started doing interviews. And I just, I felt like I had to be part of a conversation because I noticed things had shifted, you know, from when I moved here in 2010 and I, I never felt like my race was now a political statement to post-Brexit, BLM, all that. And I felt like, wow, being black is now, I have responsibilities. And I just think, this is very weird.

Starting point is 00:04:03 because I have other response. I'm trying to live my life. But it was something I was very passionate about. I mean, I worked in sales after school, so after uni. So I would be making 70, 80 call calls a day and then I would just run and go and do a turning point video or do interviews.

Starting point is 00:04:15 So it was very much, I was never really in it to put anything other than just pure passion. And that kind of snowballed. So I thought I was tweeting at the wall and then people started paying attention. But that's basically how it happened. I think one of the moments that I realized things needed to sort of shift was,

Starting point is 00:04:31 I had a friend at uni that, And, you know, Bristol, I was really proud of getting to Bristol. Like, when my mum, dropped me off, she was like, ha, you know, she got three A's. And I was like, Mom, you're embarrassing me. But I wasn't. I was like, really happy. And I was like, you know, I've worked really hard. I'm very aware that people back home don't have the same opportunities that I have. So I have to work really hard here and make something of myself because I've been given the opportunity, which in and in itself is a blessing.

Starting point is 00:04:54 And I had a friend say to me, don't you get offended when people really ask you where you're from? And I'm like, do I look Welsh to anyone? Like, who looks at me and just thinks this girl is like from the Scottish Highlands? clearly my ancestors come from a hot place. But she thought I should have been offended and she was like, you know, it must be really hard for you as a black woman. And I was like, are you mad? Do you know how much I've worked to get here?

Starting point is 00:05:15 Like, what do you mean? Why would you automatically assume? I'm assuming it was hard for you as well because you had to study to get the grades to, you know, be where you are. I would never assume that was difficult for you for whatever reason, right? I just think, you know, she just got down and got on with it. So that kind of was one of my, one of my awakening moments. I became more conscious to the fact that people put certain things on me

Starting point is 00:05:37 just because of what they saw. And I was like, that's a problem. And we have a really weird relationship with race in this country. Yeah. As someone who came from Ghana at the age of 14, just explain to me and explain to us and the viewer and the listener why it's weird in this country, because sometimes it's difficult for us to grasp.

Starting point is 00:05:57 I think, I mean, it's even weirder in the US. Actually, the most racist abuse I get are from some black Americans. just abusing me, just calling me all kinds of nigger and crew. And I'm like, wait, what? You know what we said you could say anything in this question? No, I'm kidding. No, but I think in this country, we don't really have a frank conversation

Starting point is 00:06:16 because we don't understand the stratifications when it comes to race and identity and culture and class. So, for instance, I always have to point out that sort of a black African is different from a black Caribbean person. And if you look at sort of statistics with regard to education, housing, all these sorts of things, you can see clear disparities.

Starting point is 00:06:33 that should mean that you don't, you know, group everyone together. I mean that I hate the term, BAME, right? But it should mean that if you're going to have those conversations, you should have, you know, an honest conversation with the facts right in front of you. Because I think the people that try and engage in these conversations, the vast majority really are not interested. They're just trying to virtue signal and say,

Starting point is 00:06:50 oh, but you know, you should acknowledge a black person's lack of privilege or right privilege or whatever. And I just think it's not that simple. So when I moved here, I didn't really, I mean, I always say to the credit of the UK, I was very comfortable, I felt very welcome. I never had any sort of instances of racism or anything like that. And I tell people that I don't say that because I don't think there's not racism in the world.

Starting point is 00:07:09 I say that as someone who comes from a family that's well-traveled. My dad's been to Switzerland, he's been to China, they've been to Malaysia, and my family's been all over the place. And they would say the worst instances of racism they face are places like China, for instance. We don't have those conversations. So I always say that, you know, the UK was very welcoming to me. I really appreciated having come here because I met people that I wouldn't have otherwise met. And I was never made to feel like, you know, there was an impediment.

Starting point is 00:07:34 It just, they just said, get down, get the work done, and you will succeed. And that attitude changed around sort of 2016, 2017. And I was like, this is weird. I don't really like this because I actually had a conversation with my friend yesterday. And she's mixed race, but she looks, you know, black. And she was saying, you know, I'm doing really well in my career, but I'm constantly petrify that I'm a diversity hire. And I've had so many conversations like this with people, you know, from my back

Starting point is 00:08:00 And if you, when you know something about Africans is we just, we just want to work. We just want the opportunity to prove ourselves. That's it. We're not obsessed with race and all of that. And that's not to say that, you know, we don't know whether racism exists or not. But we understand the difference, right? We're coming from a place where people can't even dream of the opportunity we have. We just want to work and we just want to prove ourselves.

Starting point is 00:08:19 And she was saying that because she has that obsession, now when she sees someone getting hired, that's clearly a diversity higher. She's even harsher on them. She's like, ma'am, don't leave your house with your bonnet on. For goodness sake. You know, put on some clothes, wear a dress well, you know, because we're like, okay, if this is going to be the case, then don't make us look ridiculous. But I don't even, I don't think that's progress. Because I was telling her, I was like, you know, I've had eye surgery before.

Starting point is 00:08:42 I didn't really care that the person performing eye surgery was a white man or a Taiwanese woman. I just wanted them to do a good job. And I think people that push these sort of diversity quotas and all of that don't have real problems in life. Because when, you know, it's, shit hits the fan. You don't care who's sort of behind the, in the cockpit of a plane that's about to crash. You just want the best person that could make sure you don't crash. That's why I really enjoy your commentary, Esther, because, you know, Francis, obviously, his background, his family being from Venezuela, me being first generation immigrant. And when I look at what you say, I don't think conservative or left-wing, or I just think, you just say a lot of the things that most people think that are quite common sense.

Starting point is 00:09:22 Yeah. But you're allowed to say them in the way many people don't feel able to. This is the thing. Because you're a person of global warming. majority. I'm a person of color as opposed to a what is the opposite of a person of color? Person of no color. Yeah. I just I anyway, a gammon. A beige, I don't know, transparent. But I get that and it makes me really sad because I'm like, why are you comfortable being neutered in your own country? But then I understand it as well because, you know, when they have

Starting point is 00:09:48 families that depend on them, they have jobs, all of that, they don't want to sort of put their foot in it. But I find it really funny that people call me conservative. I mean, I am. I'm conservative here and I'm liberal in Ghana. Right. Which is hilarious to me. Yeah. Like my parents, friends think, oh, you know, she's just as normal. She's a bit, you know, lefty. I'm really not. I'm so just, I don't care. But that's interesting that because I say things that most people think is just common sense.

Starting point is 00:10:12 I'm a super conservative, super right wing. And I am conservative in some of my views. But I just don't think, I think to attribute my social commentary to just conservatism is weird because most people, I mean, my friend I was talking about, she's pretty left wing. You know, she thinks exactly the same. She got, she was at work the other day and they were like, babe, you know, it's Black History Month

Starting point is 00:10:31 and she was like, oh, goodness sake. And, you know, she was just like, she expected it, right? And it's like, what now? What do you want from me? But, yeah. Are you tired of using bulky old wallets, giving you a bulge where you don't want it to be?

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Starting point is 00:11:48 to win a brand new, upgraded Ford Broncon. Or if you can't drive like Francis, then you can win $75,000 in cash. will be announced in October, so get spending. Because Ridge are such great guys, they're going to give you 10% off and free worldwide shipping and returns. To take advantage of this incredible offer, go to ridge.com forward slash trigger. That's ridge.com forward slash trigger and use our special code, which is, of course, trigger. It's really interesting because there's this perception in this country as well,

Starting point is 00:12:25 that if you're an ethnic minority in this country, you're going to be. be liberal and left. Yeah. They can't seem to get their head around the fact, like my mom, who is South American, you know, Christian, conservative. And they can't seem to get their heads around the fact that maybe these people think differently to them.

Starting point is 00:12:45 Because they're not interested. They generally don't care. I often say that the most socially conservative people in this country are ethnic minorities. But that's not a conversation they're willing to have. No question. And, you know, I even, this is why I draw the difference between black Africans and sort of black Europeans, because I say, you know, if you look at the single motherhood rate in sort of black African communities, about 40%.

Starting point is 00:13:03 In black Caribbean communities, it's about 62%. That's a 22% disparity. If you look at sort of cultural sort of norms in those communities, they're different. If you look at education attainment, you know, black African sent to do better than black Caribians. There's so many differences within communities, even sort of Indian communities, to Bangladesh, to Pakistani, that if you really want to have that conversation, you need to acknowledge those facts. But people that, you know, are not interested, but just want a virtue sign to show that they're good people, They just sort of belt the same, oh, if you're like Joe Biden, if you don't vote for me, you ain't black.

Starting point is 00:13:32 Yeah. And I actually had this instance, which really, really annoyed me. And if you know me, I don't get angry easily at all. I'm like, you know, I'm a puppy. But I had this lady that I'd been on a show with before. And she's lovely. And I didn't attribute when I met her any malice to her. I didn't think, and I don't attribute any malice to anyone I have sort of conversations or debates with because maybe I'm naive,

Starting point is 00:13:52 but I don't think most people want to blow up the earth or horrible. But she said, during the conservative. leadership race, which unfortunately is still going on. But at the time this goes out, it will be over. We already know who's going to win. Yeah, exactly. But she said that she was talking about some of Kemi Badernock and all these people, and she said it's not real diversity if she's using her power to oppress people, some shit, right? And I was like, why not give me a good Negro handbook then, ma'am? And she was like, you know that's not what I meant. I was like, no, no, no, no. That is so

Starting point is 00:14:23 offensive. It's not even funny. There are people in this country that don't care what Kemi Bader not looks like, but they want this woman to be prime minister. She's made it to the point where she can even contest the leadership. That in and in of itself is an achievement, but you, a white woman, are happy to say that it's not real diversity because she doesn't think the things that you think she should think. And that is so offensive on so many levels. But this kind of person goes to bed at night, feeling good about herself. She thinks, yep, I've put the world to right. And I'm just like, you complete cow. How dare you? And if you know anything about sort of Nigerians in particular, they're very proud of themselves.

Starting point is 00:14:54 And they work really hard. And I really admire. And I really admire. them for that. And I just think someone, her parents are probably extremely proud of her because I think she's worked really hard. She's gotten to the point of notoriety where people in this country know of who she is and admire her politics to the point that they want her to lead this country. And you have this dumb cow, and she is a lovely lady, but in that moment she was a complete bitch, to saying that it's not real diversity because she doesn't think the things that you should think. And you have to really think about that. There's no way you can get around the fact that's just racist and horrible. And that really, that really, really did my head in because

Starting point is 00:15:26 I'm now at a point that if you have people like that running the country, every time you see someone who's not white or male or straight, you know to some extent there are diversity hire and it's actually damaging the mindsets of these people. I never want to feel like a diversity hire because it's so offensive. I'd rather just go back home. I'd rather go back home and struggle with everyone else because that for me, that's not meritocracy. That's an insult to my hard work. No, I totally get it. You bring up the Tory election thing and, you know, at least trust is going to win. Everybody knows this. And I was saying throughout when Boris Johnson was having all his different problems and party gay and he said this and did this and did that. And whatever, I was like, I think he should resign, but I don't want him to. And what I meant by that is the stuff he had done is the sort of stuff that a prime minister should resign over it cumulatively.

Starting point is 00:16:15 But I always said you're not going to get somebody who is better. And you've made that point. I think you turned, you know, you were critical of Boris pretty early on. Yeah. I think more like sort of last year, early last year, yeah. But equally, we've ended up in a position where, I mean, if the three candidates were on the ballot, I think you'd probably go with Boris. Probably, yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:36 I mean, there is a section of the Conservative Party that actually want him back because they just think what's happened is ridiculous. And I've often said he's sort of the victim of, he's the architect of his own demise. Yeah, completely. Because he had everything. He literally had everything going. But one of, who was it, Gove? Gove. Yeah, he was one of the few people very early on that had noticed Boris's sort of character defects and said, this is not the man you want to be Prime Minister. He's too big picture. He's not good with detail. He's all over the place. And he will take himself down. And he saw it early on. And for the reputation that Gove got in Westminster for being a snake and not loyal and stuff, but he was spot on. And you never really hear people kind of defending Michael Gove because it's not very fashionable. But he was right. And it's, I said from the beginning, Boris is stressed. was off because one, he surrounded himself with sycophantic half-wits,

Starting point is 00:17:28 and two, he didn't have a real vision for this country at the level of detail. Yeah, we'll get Brexit done. Yeah, get Brexit, level up. What the hell is level up? Where? And, you know, the people that were supposed to get that job done were, sorry, they were not up to scratch. I mean, the fact that Nadine Dory's is in our cabinet will forever be the biggest joke

Starting point is 00:17:46 of British history. I mean, it's ridiculous. But he took himself down because he didn't understand how politics works. but I also think it's a blessing in disguise because I've long been very disillusioned by our political system. I think that there's so many, there's so much wrong with the political party system

Starting point is 00:18:01 that we really need a bit more diversity. We don't know what the Lib Dem stand for. Sir Ed Davy is a complete joke. The Labour Party, I mean, I understand what Kirstama is trying to do now because he's accepted, he's never going to be that big, bombastic personality. So he's kind of going down a John Major strategy and making the party more palatable

Starting point is 00:18:18 as opposed to him being a standout character. like Boris was. And the Conservative Party, they're, I think, trying to rein it back and just focus on their core voters and the people they can win and not really focus on like a catch-all strategy which wouldn't work.

Starting point is 00:18:34 And this is what happens when you actually try and understand the nature of politics. You don't think people in the Red War traditionally would vote for Tory anyway, so you're not going to try and sort of appeal to them in that way. And it's just common sense politics.

Starting point is 00:18:45 But I think we really need a change in this country. I think our political system is a bit broken. I think there are a lot of people, especially young people that just don't care anymore because what's the point? I mean, two-thirds of seats in this country are safe seats anyway. So really, if you wanted to make a change, how are you going to do it? And the party system is not the mechanism to do it now. I agree with you.

Starting point is 00:19:04 The problem you're going to get, though, is I don't think the party system will change because the two major parties have a stake in not changing. Yeah, they have a vested interest in keeping it that way. And so if we focus on where we are and what we actually have, you've got rid of Boris Johnson and you're going to replace them with Liz Truss. Yeah. No, I mean, no offense to Liz Truss, but, you know, I don't think that in the Kremlin,

Starting point is 00:19:28 they're shaking in their boot. Do you know what I mean? Did you see that? She did an interview and she got like Russian geography wrong. Yeah. When she was foreign secretary, by the way. Yes. Anyway, but I said, and actually I was about to do a show and my dad texted me saying,

Starting point is 00:19:42 do you think Rishi can become prime minister? I was like, no, dad, why are you messaging me this? And he's like, oh, I think Lestrusser is ugly. I don't want her to become. I was like, you can't say towards him. want to be prime minister because she thinks she's a minger. That's not how this works. But you know what, Liz Trust needs to accept a few things. I think the first thing she needs to do is level with this country. She needs to give a big

Starting point is 00:20:02 speech where she level. She's, look, this energy crisis is not going away anytime soon. This is not a six-month problem. This is sort of at least a three to five-year problem. Well, you're right. And this is sorry to interrupt just very quickly. We were watching back an interview we did with Nigel Farage earlier this year. That's what we do with our spare time. Naturally. He's lovely, actually. He's a really funny. guy's interview. So he's a great person to interview, absolutely. And one of the things, it was recorded like a week before the war in Ukraine, I think. It was just as it was about to happen. He was a prophetic. And he was saying, people don't know what's coming. And he was talking about

Starting point is 00:20:37 the energy bills. This was before the war in Ukraine. So this attempt to pretend that this is all about Ukraine. Complete nonsense. Anyway, no, but it's true. And I mean, there's a clip of Trump going viral when he warned that Germany's dependence on Russian energy is a problem. And he was laughed out of the room. I was like, well, he may be orange, but he does say some things are on point sometimes. What was I even saying? Yeah, but Listrust needs to level with the country. That's the first thing. So the energy crisis didn't go in a way. But it's not going away. And this is a thing. She needs to be very honest with this country. And I know an honest politician, that's a paradox. But it's true. And she also, her team are core, because one of the biggest failings of Boris was his team. He didn't have anyone around

Starting point is 00:21:16 him that really kept him in check, that were honest with him that had the capabilities that you needed to. Someone like Gove should have been Boris's right-hand man. And I know that sounds weird because he didn't even think he should have been Prime Minister in the first place. But if he had the humility to temper himself and not go down the Chris Whitty route or, you know, silencing people that had questions over lockdown and all of that, he would have still been here with all his sort of flaws. So her team is also really important in this trust. But I also think she needs to go back to the basics. She's from a very liberal wing of conservatism. So she's not the traditional, they don't really talk about social conservatism, right?

Starting point is 00:21:48 It's not in fashion. You don't hear any conservative politician other than Jacob Bruce Morgan, but that's because he has like six kids. You never really hear them talking about, you know, get married, stay married, have kids, you know, have a traditional family structure. Gender rules are not necessarily a bad thing.

Starting point is 00:22:03 Actual things that keep the social fabric of this country together, you never really hear them talking about it. And I think actually that's a mistake because you're probably going to get a lot of votes from sort of traditional Indian communities by doing that. Because you're talking about things that no one's talking about, but that's really fundamental to this country.

Starting point is 00:22:17 So that's, I think that's kind of where she needs to go. She needs to move, she needs to have social conservatism on the agenda, but she also needs to have, I suppose, a real commitment to actual conservatism, sort of fiscal discipline. We need to know what that looks like, because what I suspect is going to happen is she's going to unveil the largest sort of assistance package

Starting point is 00:22:35 this country's ever seen. And my generation, people at least 25 and over, between 25 and 50 are going to be like, ah, I'm going to pay for this. how exactly is this going to work? Because I don't really want to see my taxes going up and if you act crazy, I will move. And that's a problem as well

Starting point is 00:22:50 because we're not having enough kids and people my age should be having kids should be having a home to put the kids in and we're not really, we don't really see how that's possible. So I think she really has a big task ahead of her. I'm not going to set the bar too high because I think that's a problem we have in our politics.

Starting point is 00:23:06 The state has expanded so much that there's so many things that comes under the state's remit that you don't expect them to do it properly but it's just it's fodder for people to continually whinge and bitch and wine. And it's like, look, I don't really care whether you think, you know, pavements should have rainbow flags painted on them.

Starting point is 00:23:21 But I would actually like for a burglary to be solved, you know, or for people to stop stabbing each other. I'd actually like basic policing of this country to work. You're right. I see you're a social conservative. I mean, the solicitor strike is in a few days, the criminal barrister strike. And I just think this is a disaster, right?

Starting point is 00:23:37 And this is happening in a country that's been under conservative leadership for 12 years. How could you possibly let this arm of our justice system fall to the point where, you know, I think since 2006, criminal barristers, they've seen a 26% decrease in real pay. That is a disaster, right? Because these are people that are defending the people that don't have the means to defend themselves. That's a critical part of our judicial system. And they've just let that fall by the wayside.

Starting point is 00:24:01 And I think this is unimaginable. And that's since 2006. So we're talking sort of mid-blair era as well. This is not just something on the conservatives, but they've kind of seen it and just kicked the can down the road. road. And what does it mean to you to be a conservative? What does that actually mean? Well, it depends where I am. If I was in the US, I'd be like, I'm probably bang in the middle. Because I probably don't want to be walking around with guns in Walmart, which I've seen. But I'm also like not obviously a leftist crazy. I think being a conservative means having some sort of

Starting point is 00:24:33 commitment to a decent society and understanding what makes a society work. So I think when I talk about conservatism. I don't necessarily just talk about economic policy, which I think I'm probably more libertarian than strictly conservative. For me, it's more about family and social structure because I think that's so important. And I don't think we talk about that enough. Like, I was having a conversation with someone who was saying, oh, I can't get a mortgage and I can't buy a home. And I said something crazy. I thought about getting married. He's like, why would I do that? It's like, well, it's two incomes, you know, your wagon is stitched theirs. They're legally obligated to like you. That might be one solution. But I just think, you know,

Starting point is 00:25:09 there are loads of single people, single young people that are working in London that are wondering how they're going to get on the housing market. But that's really a very tangible solution. But there's so many mechanisms that go around with that. I find it really funny. That's fascinating, the rise of the red pill and the manosphere space and stuff. And I look at it. I was talking to my friend later. I was like,

Starting point is 00:25:26 babe. I grew up in Ghana. I've had a front row seat to these sort of intersexual dynamics since I was born. Wait, how did you mean? I mean, anyone with common sense knows that a lot of the things that they're saying is obviously true like men liking younger women it's because

Starting point is 00:25:42 they're misogynous I'm like look let me tell you a conversation let me tell you a conversation I had so I was talking to this guy who's I think he's a mason he works he works my dad and he's he's Muslim he's from the northern part of Ghana and you were saying oh you know Ku Ku Kwa that's my gun in him I'm looking for a second wife I'm looking for a second wife I said no you know I just want to add the second wife's okay cool what your criteria and I was like you know I want someone she has to be at least 30

Starting point is 00:26:04 and I wanted to have at least just one child and I said oh okay why I was like because I don't have that money much money for her bride price so he knows that he can't afford a premium like 20 something hot single young childless woman do you know what I mean but this is basic intersexual dynamics and he was like but she has to be attractive she can't have a big

Starting point is 00:26:22 stomach he was telling me all his criteria but I'm like and the Red Pills space talks about all these things I'm like dude everyone knows this everyone knows if you're younger hotter so more feminine you come from good family, you're not a headache to be around and stuff like that. Really, your market... The bright price goes up.

Starting point is 00:26:40 Exactly. Well, bright price is the version of market value or whatever. But it's true. And I can't believe how many videos that are online where guys are effectively learning how to be men off the internet. And then me and my brother are just there like, really? Are you joking? Like men having men wanting younger, hotter women or having more than like a side trick or whatever.

Starting point is 00:27:02 And it's just like, oh no. And I'm like, babe. Do you think as a society we've just gone nuts? With you have. I'm really upset. I get really upset when I see very intelligent people talking about gender pronouns. I'm not going to lie.

Starting point is 00:27:15 It really upsets me because I just think society's going to look back 20 years from now and think we should have employed these brilliant minds to something better like furthering humanity. Instead of going on talk shows and arguing what the hell a woman is. And I call my dad and it's like, what's going on there? And I'm like, they don't know what a woman is. It's crazy. I'm like, can I come home?

Starting point is 00:27:32 This is absolute insanity. And it's just, I think we are really sort of sacrificing brilliant minds at the altar of this bullshit. When you buy LG, you get so much more than just an appliance. You get more done, more cost savings, more peace of mind, and more control. Because LG appliances are designed to do more. Like washers and dryers with AI tech to take out the guesswork, refrigerators that fit in tight spaces and keep food fresher longer. or ranges with precise induction cooking and easy cleanup built in, all with the style you want

Starting point is 00:28:09 and reliability you can count on so you can get more from your home every day. LG appliances, so much more. Make life easier with LG. See the latest models and savings now at LG.com. It's an interesting point. You talk about gender roles and stuff like that, and I almost always agree with the stuff that you say about it. Almost always.

Starting point is 00:28:32 Almost always, yeah, because you make a tremendous. man of sense. Yet here you are a confident young woman who earns a living, who's not married, as far as I know, right? So how, and there'll be lots of other young women like you. Some of them will be watching this. Probably not many. No, not many. Well, we've seen the demographics, mate. Really? What's the demographics split? Well, see, this is where... White male and angry. No. Okay. No, it's not. He's such a fucking idiot. Face palm. Unbelievable. No, the thing is, I don't. I don't. I don't trust online statistics because women often don't want to identify themselves online.

Starting point is 00:29:08 So, but it skews towards the male side, definitely. And that's YouTube in general, right? But anyway, so there'll be other young women out there, I suspect there are out there, right? You're sounding so much like a dad. I am a dad, mate. That's what I am. Who are in your position as well. They want to have a career, they want to make a good living, like all of that.

Starting point is 00:29:30 So hasn't the world changed? The world has changed But I think Your, the way Your personal life is like your mini kingdom Right, I always said that a home With a mother and father Kids, it's a small kingdom

Starting point is 00:29:44 Right, a man's house is his castle And I genuinely believe that And I look to my parents Because one, there's no one I admire more than my dad basically And I think I really hold a lot of I think there's a lot of value

Starting point is 00:29:58 In the wisdom of the past So looking to previous generations And seeing what they got right I don't necessarily think women being in the workforce is a bad thing. I think the scale which was done really stagnated wages and I think it was just to benefit big corporations. And I do think that is a problem. But I always say I'm not necessarily a career girl, but I would get bored just not doing anything else other than just childcare. Like I would read and do stuff that stimulated my mind. But that's not

Starting point is 00:30:22 necessarily, that doesn't mean that I have sort of career ambitions. Like I want to be a CEO. I'm not built for that. Everyone who knows me knows. Esther gets really excited when she discovers a new recipe she wants to try on you. That is my thing. I love like cooking and taking care of people. And I just think most women are just built. We flourish when we have good, healthy functioning relationships. I think that's what we really want. I don't think we necessarily want to be, most women don't necessarily want to be CEO or have the stress of those high-flying care. I'm sorry. I can't do all that and look hot. That's just too much. That's just too much work. No, I'm sorry. But I think, you know, the issue, I think there's a lot of, the issues on both sides. I think men and

Starting point is 00:31:00 women these days have a lot of, they don't understand what each other want. And I don't think they have the humility to look for it. So I often say like with my ex, I'll be like, what was it like being with me? And, you know, I generally want to know. And they have nothing but positive stuff to say. So I don't sit there and freak out and be like, oh, God, I'm horrible. I'm crazy. It's just, you know, and I talked to my dad as well. I was like, you know, it just hasn't happened yet. And you don't want to, who are you married, especially in this day and age where men and women don't need each other in the economic sense, a strict economic sense, where like the man had to go out and work and the woman had no choice but to be married to him, you, your bond and

Starting point is 00:31:33 the nature of your relationship evolves. But that's not a bad thing. That's actually better, because you know people are choosing to stay together as opposed to having no choice but to be coupled together. My dad also says, choose someone expensive. So his, his, expensive. He was like, I don't bring a broke man to my house. He's actually said that to me and my brother. So his analysis is very interesting. But I just think it takes a lot of humility on both sides and kind of looking at yourself objectively, which most people can't do.

Starting point is 00:32:02 I often say surround yourself with people that can be brutally honest with you. My friends can roast me for filth and they thoroughly enjoy it. But I know it's not coming from a place of malice or from a place of just negativity or jealousy. And yeah, I do think, you know, dynamics have changed, but if you are constantly working on being better

Starting point is 00:32:18 and surrounding yourself with better people, better calibre people, you can't fail, it's impossible. It's an interesting point you made, particularly at the beginning of that statement there, because I think what you're hinting at really is something, like my wife is a big fan of John Gray, who wrote men and from Mars, women are from Venus, and we've had him on the show.

Starting point is 00:32:38 And one of the things that she sort of learned over the time that we've been together is she can do many things, but there are certain things that make her happy and certain things that don't. And I'm starting to see, like, we had Louise Perry on the show to talk about it. She tweeted this clip today where it's like an actor, I think. There's like a pink or a blue-haired woman from 2022 talking to her in the 1950s and telling her like what her brilliant future life will be like. And it's like you're going to go to work and do the home cooking and the cleaning under the...

Starting point is 00:33:14 Oh, no. And basically... Oh, I think not. Right. And I think quite a lot of people, particularly women, are starting to realize that this idea of having everything really wasn't everything. At the same time. At the same time, really wasn't what it was made out to be. Yeah, it's a scam.

Starting point is 00:33:33 We've been scanned. But this is the thing. I think, again, I say this is a uniquely Western phenomenon. Because I think when I go to other parts of the world, we're just very real with ourselves. And we're just very honest. I don't have, I mean, if you look at my friendship group, all my friends kind of are similar to me, sort of privately educated. They're from all over the place, Japanese, Kenyan, Indian. But our family structure, our family set up, if you look at our lives,

Starting point is 00:33:53 they look exactly the same, right? And we're exactly the same kinds of people in terms of how we see our future. One of my best friends, she has three degrees, like Warwick, Bristol, some... Very educated. You would see her as the quintessentially career girl. Oh, no, she's happy to... When she cooks for me, she's really happy. She has this little white puff dog.

Starting point is 00:34:11 You know, she loves being in a relationship. She loves taking care of people. It doesn't matter sort of how far you go up the sort of education. education hierarchy or the attainment hierarchy, women fundamentally, across the board, generally are the same, right? We value our relationships more. We value sort of building with a man more and letting a man lead in certain aspects. My brother's only three years younger than me. When we go out together, he just naturally takes the lead. And I'm technically his older sister, but I'm like, you know, what do you want to have for dinner? Or I, we just fall into this role,

Starting point is 00:34:41 because I know he's more competent. I know he's calmer. I know, if any, he's six foot. If I can't read something, he'll just get it. I don't do it. do any DIY, I fundamentally refuse. I don't take out the bins. I don't do any of that. And we won't taught that. We grew up in Ghana and then we moved here. But it's just something that we've naturally fallen into. I always say when I see someone, a guy with

Starting point is 00:34:59 his pronouns or his bio, he says he's a feminist, I'm like, bye. I'm just not interested. Because I'm not, I'm not, the kind of women I am will not fit you fundamentally. And I often say, and my friends say this as well, Lear gets a little shit for saying this,

Starting point is 00:35:15 but I don't want to be in a leadership position in my relationship. I just don't want to. I don't care for it. I love being in a support role because I think I'm best suited to do that. I would love to be a mother. I love sort of taking care of a home and I buy fresh flowers for the house every week. It's ridiculous. It's stupid. You come and see these bouquet in front of my house. But it makes me happy. And I love that. And I love how it, you know, brightens a room and lifts the ambience in a place. That's just how I am. I think, and I think most women are built that way. That's why the beauty industry is a trillion-dollar industry, right? Beauty and sort of appearance and relationships and all these things matter to us,

Starting point is 00:35:49 women, a lot more than men. Why is it so controversial to say that? Why is it, why is it a lot of people don't want to admit this, particularly women? Like, if you were a man saying what you just said, you'd literally be Andrew Taye. Yeah. Literally. Oh yeah, I would be. Yeah. You know what I mean? People ask me what my opinion of him is. And I say, oh, yeah, he's great. It's really nice. And I know people that know him. And they've only said positive things about him. And I just think, I don't hang around with idiots. Everyone I keep in my circle, I really respect and I really respect. And I really hold their opinion in high regard. And they're like, he's great, he's lovely, he's polite,

Starting point is 00:36:18 you know. But you know what I mean? The way society is you are man saying that. Because they're not real with themselves. This is the thing. And the people that have dominated the conversation are people from a very sort of narrow, with a very narrow viewpoint on this, on this issue. It's obvious. It is very obvious. Anyone, even parents can tell the difference between their son and their daughter. My room has been pink since how I could remember.

Starting point is 00:36:39 Everyone comes into my room was like, everything is pink. I'm like, yeah, my mom decorated it. The curtains are pink. I only have pink bed sheets The walls are pink And it's always been I have princess stickers Even when I go home to Ghana

Starting point is 00:36:50 They're still there Disney princess stickers But people People just don't want to be real with themselves And I think the conversation Has been so Taken over by people of a very narrow viewpoint No woman wants a very effeminate man

Starting point is 00:37:03 Who doesn't like to lead No man wants to feel like a bitch in his own home You know And even to this day And I don't think it's oppressive right I'll ask my mom Oh can we do this And she's like

Starting point is 00:37:11 Okay let me ask your dad That's what the hierarchy looks like Like he's always worked, she's always been the support system. She doesn't feel oppressed. My mom is nothing. She's definitely not a pushover. But the people that have dominated the conversation, like, oh, women don't want to do this. You know what women don't want to do?

Starting point is 00:37:25 Women don't want to work 60 hours a week, then come home, have to take care of the kids, and then still have to sleep with your husband at night. We don't want to do that. I'm sorry. I want to look hot. I want to shit out of my husband. I want to have kids. I want to make sure my family and whole my life.

Starting point is 00:37:37 And then everything extra is a bonus. It's a blessing. I want to make sure my community and me and my husband's kingdom is together before I do all the extras and call myself a boss bitch or whatever. But isn't the problem, though, is that that isn't really affordable for the vast majority of women? I think it is. I think when you say affordable, as in like getting a house and kids.

Starting point is 00:37:58 Getting a house, getting kids. Kids are expensive. Housing is... You see, people have made kids expensive. Even that or the way I grew up has influenced me a lot. Because if I have a kid, first of all, you're eating... Okay, let me not. Let me do.

Starting point is 00:38:12 Let me measure the house. I don't think kids need to be expensive, right? In my background, you know, it's very normal that when you have kids, after they grow to a certain age, you give the kids clothes to your cousin who's just had a kid or whatever in terms of, you share resources because it's a kid, right? I don't want to see any burberry tags on a kid's clothes. It's prime mark, prime mark and pound land.

Starting point is 00:38:32 Really, kids cost, I think maintenance, why should be as minimal as possible? Because one, they'll grow up too, they won't remember it. And if you want to spend anything on kids, it should be more experiences. I should have married estimate. Honestly, because my son is pretty expensive. right now, let me tell you. I don't care. I mean, I like nice stuff.

Starting point is 00:38:46 I'm not gonna lie. I would wear like the nicer stuff and carry like a three grand bag or whatever. My kid is wearing Primark to the day. I can, I will attest to that because probably up until a couple of years ago, I was wearing Primark. If my parents paid for it,

Starting point is 00:38:58 it was either M&S on sale or Primark. And my mom would be like, you don't need anything else. Like, what do you fundamentally need? We feed you, we clothe you. Your education is important and you're doing well and we encourage you. But that is it.

Starting point is 00:39:08 But I think also the structure, the way my parents structured the home is, they are at the top. It's a pyramid. If they and their marriage is not solid, if their kingdom is not solid, the kids will suffer. So they need to make sure that they're okay, their relationship is up top.

Starting point is 00:39:20 And then the kids benefit from that structure. It doesn't have to come from money. I mean, if my parents went, and I don't want to picture this because I'd make me want to boil my eyes and bleach, but they went skinny to pinging Bora Bora. I'm happy for them now because I know that they were doing it

Starting point is 00:39:32 to keep the house together because they're nourishing and they're fortifying their marriage for the benefit of everyone. And not just as the kids, but the community at large, the small kingdoms within the big kingdom, which is society.

Starting point is 00:39:42 And that's broken up now because we don't really want to talk about that We don't really want to talk about what men want And I think men have got a raw deal more than women Why? Why? Because my brother, he's in a relationship now But I went on his dating up and I was like, whew, this is sad He's got one, one's like two stone overweight

Starting point is 00:39:59 You have one with blue hair, someone's got a like a boring Yeah, you know that thing they use Okay, I don't know why that's a fashion now But when I was a kid, the only cows had that thing in their own You know, I always have the same reaction Yeah, I'm just like, for what reason? Like, why? My cousin had and I'm like, put that shit in your face. She's not allowed to wear around me.

Starting point is 00:40:16 But I was looking at sort of the girls going and I was like, wow. And then like 19-20, you're beautiful, you're intelligent, speak well, you come from a good home, you're blessed, you have food on, you go to the fridge and there's food in there, right? You're not starving, you live in a home, you live in the UK, you live in the fifth most developed country in the world. Be effervescent, be happy, be light. You know, don't be a raging bitch constantly complaining about microaggressions. But I just think, ew, like why?

Starting point is 00:40:42 But I don't have that necessarily much of a problem because, one, I date older, I'll be honest. But also, I think men, when they're clued up, they get clued up properly. Like, they know not to do certain things because it's just unattractive. And they have a harder time. So I think they have to invest more in themselves to even attract any women, as opposed to women that can be, look like a complete wildebeest, and there's still someone that wants to sleep with her. Hey, Francis.

Starting point is 00:41:03 If you were a member of the public, would you like the opportunity to ask incredible guests like Bill Burr, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla, Brett Weinstein, John Barnes, Douglas Murray, Nigel Farage and Lionel Shriver, your own questions. You bet I would. And what do you think the best way to do that would be? Probably stalking, mate. You'd have to corner them in the supermarket, probably run near like the sort of frozen food aisles,

Starting point is 00:41:31 and then just bark questions at them before they can escape. Not the American ones, as they have guns. And you'd have to be extra careful with the females, as that's how I got in trouble last time. Do you really imagine you're going to get Douglas Murray near the Frozen Food Isle? If you want to ask our incredible guest questions and have access to phenomenal behind-the-scenes content, then you have to be on our locals. That's right, for only $7 a month, you get incredible extra content, behind-the-scenes footage, giveaways, and also the chance to be part of an incredible community,

Starting point is 00:42:06 where you can meet and hang out with like-minded people. You get access to our American vlogs as we travel across the country interviewing our heroes. An extra 20 minutes of our viral Sam Harris episode as he discusses his approach to COVID. We're also going to start doing giveaways of exclusive trigonometry merchandise like this, a poster from our Edinburgh show signed by both of us. And also a House of Lords Teddy, which you can only get in the House of Lords, signed by the one and only Baroness Fox. Locals also gives you access to an incredible online community.

Starting point is 00:42:41 You can share memes, talk about the latest episode, or even make a new friend. What's just one? Exactly, more than both of us have, really. People are now doing meetups in their city because they love locals. In fact, some people enjoy it so much, they prefer it over the show. They prefer locals to trigonometry. If I have to get them executed, I'm the one that goes to jail. Right.

Starting point is 00:43:07 Go to trigonometry.com. Only $7 a month for all that incredible content. Trigonometry.com. See you there, guys. Esther, do you think we have a fundamental problem in our society where we're not honest with one another? Yes, and I think the people that are monopolizing the conversation are, they have too much power.

Starting point is 00:43:30 and I think they make it easy for people to be villainised, right? That's the problem. What I'm saying now shouldn't be controversial. A lot of what Annu Tate says shouldn't be controversial, a lot of what people in my kind of space, I suppose, conservative liberal, but the basics, the basic fundamentals about intersexual dynamics, it shouldn't be controversial.

Starting point is 00:43:49 But we're out here having, like, debates. The news articles saying, you know, do parents need to get married or should, do children need to be with married parents for the success of the home? I was like, well, yes. Why do you even need to ask that question? But it's kind of trying to normalize this idea that anything goes. Right.

Starting point is 00:44:05 And the evidence is very clear. Exactly. On what the consequences are for children growing up outside of family harm. Yeah. Right? Two parents, what the consequences are. But we've got to a point like I think Francis is getting out, where being honest about these issues is like you're lying now.

Starting point is 00:44:22 We're liable to get you punished, right? Now we're not just being dishonest. We're lying. Yeah. So there will be that you have, there's this section online that really does my head in, and they're like, oh, they became a delinquent because they were poor. And I really fundamentally disagree with that

Starting point is 00:44:36 because I don't think being lower, middle, or whatever, not being wealthy means that you're going to go down a life of crime. Because I was like, well, if that was the case, then most of the undeveloped, well, the developing world would be ungovernable, right? In Ghana, for instance, I feel very safe, right? People are not very wealthy, but there's a family structure there. Because there's an authority hierarchy, you know if you go and steal from someone and someone finds out

Starting point is 00:44:56 your dad is going to whoop your ass. Like, he will beat you up and you will be disciplined, right? The social fabric is such that you instill morals on people without having it come down to, oh, you know, it's because that person is poor, not the fact that they didn't come from a two-parent household with a solid authority structure that teaches them right from wrong. That is more valuable than investing in the police, frankly.

Starting point is 00:45:18 And it's more valuable over generations. Such a good point. See, we obviously have covered the issue of, you know, absent fathers and all of that quite a bit. But the way you put it there, is actually makes a tremendous amount of sense, which is, you know, if you, if you are able to guide society towards having more family stability, then the amount of money you then end up having to spend on the criminal justice system, the police, the prisons, the, the effort.

Starting point is 00:45:45 To care, all of that. It just, it tanks. And but this, this is the thing. So I often say that that one of the reasons why I behave the way I do in public and I carry myself the way I do, and my brother does, is because it's not just me. I have a family that are, saying Kuqua you're representing us. Do you know what I mean? I come from this home. I come from a home. Behave like you come from a home like you were raised properly. So for instance, I was like, you know, I didn't go to carnival because I was doing some work, but I was like, if I go to carnival and someone tries to bend me or then dagger me, hell no. Ew. Why am I going to have a picture of me being daggered and like a road floating on the internet? My parents would kill me, right?

Starting point is 00:46:17 Or leaving my house in a bonnet, dressing gown and slippers. That is, that's not, it's not just the fact that I would feel embarrassed, but I'm like, God, my parents invested so much to raise me in a certain way and I'm going out there to disgrace myself and embarrass myself. And it's the same with my brother. He would never sort of go out in public, I don't know, dressed like a hoodlum and think, yeah, he's a bad man today. Because first of all, I wouldn't let him out of the house. I'll handcuff use of the radiator unless you change. But, you know, but there's, that is how you keep a society intact. When people know that they come from somewhere, they have a responsibility on their shoulder and they, the way that they behave matters, not just outside of themselves or

Starting point is 00:46:55 the immediate consequences, but as part of a bigger structure. That's how you keep things together, not sort of investing more on the police or telling people, everything, anything goes, be yourself, but also, you know, why has crime gone up? Well, we need to put more money into the police. There would never be enough police officers to kind of keep society in check. A large part of that comes from the home and how people are raised. And I think that's what makes the difference. It is, look, I was a former teacher, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Starting point is 00:47:21 But you saw the kids who had trouble, were focusing or concentrating, or got in trouble at school. And you were like, no, dad, dad isn't at home. Dad's walked out. Yeah. It's very simple. I mean, the single motherhood rate in the Indian community is 6%, right? How many sort of primarily Indian-based gangs do you see around the country?

Starting point is 00:47:39 I mean, unless they're about to... There's gangs of accountants. Yeah, well, yeah, unless they're bursting out into song every two minutes. Like, you just, you don't see that. I have a huge respect for Indian and South Asian communities in this country because I think they get it. And I think sort of, even black African families that are, you know, Christian or Muslim, but keep their family intact. I don't think they understand how much of a credit they are to the society

Starting point is 00:47:59 and how much really they are holding Britain together. Esther, so I think you're making really good point. Sorry to interrupt. I just, every time we have this conversation, what I wonder is how do we change this? How do we improve this? How do we make these things better? Now, obviously, you making the point is important.

Starting point is 00:48:16 You saying what you think is important. And that's why we wanted to have you on, because I think your voice is valuable. And so does Francis. And so do many of the people watching. But what are some of the steps that we can take as a society to get us to an understanding? Because this is one, when Francis asked you about conservatism, really, I think, at the core of what you are talking about is family structure.

Starting point is 00:48:39 Yeah, religion. And an appreciation that just because you may not have a right in the second, a super logical explanation of why some things work for thousands of years, maybe it's not necessarily the right thing to throw it out of the window. Yeah. Right. So that's where you're coming from. But how do we get more people?

Starting point is 00:48:55 And this is why I come back to the housing crisis, right? Because I agree with you. I really do. But I think many people would recognize also that we do have a situation where it's so difficult for young people to pair up, to get together, to have kids. I hear you, kids don't have to be expensive. But I think that's the first point, the pairing up bit.

Starting point is 00:49:15 That's what we need. So I think one is to be an example yourself. So I think I would feel like a bit of a hypocrite if I'm in my 40s and like never mind. I never had kids or divorced or whatever. I think personal responsibility is huge for me personally. And I place a huge responsibility on myself and how I behave because I have to stick to the morals and values that I espouse

Starting point is 00:49:35 to show people that it is possible. So for me, I aspire to that sort of ideal of marriage and kids and being a good wife and staying together and all of that. And understanding that marriage is not always going to be easy, I'll have to lean on my parents a lot because I'm like, he left the toilet seat up again. You know, I have to sort of... I pray for you.

Starting point is 00:49:53 the smallest of the problems. Oh my God. No. Yeah. But, you know, lean on sort of the established wisdom to be able to get through my life. So one is be an example yourself. You're going to talk about that, try and aspire for that yourself. But also I think we should normalize certain common sense things. Like a man typically doesn't want a woman that's vulgar, tattered up, blue hair, overweight, you know, not feminine, doesn't have a set, doesn't want kids, all these things. We should normalize that, like, you know, saying, telling people that, because they're not attracted to trans women, they're bigoted. It's quite ridiculous, right? We should normalize traditional family values and traditional roles and we should stop shaming or making women feel like if they don't want

Starting point is 00:50:33 to have a massive career, if they want to stay home and take care of their kids and they have to, you know, struggle a little bit in the beginning, that that's fine. Will they not be a part of you? Like, you go, I've had this successful TV career. I've been on all these amazing shows like Trigonometry. Like, I've done all this cool stuff and now I'm just a housewife. I don't think I'll ever be just a house. I mean, I also poll dance. So I'd be quite an interesting wife, but I do other things as well, because for me, it's just feeling like I'm being stimulated enough mentally and physically. So I'll always find an... But the status stuff, you're not bothered about. No, I'm not bothered about. I mean, to what end? Like, what does it do for me? So far as I'm

Starting point is 00:51:11 influencing people in the right way and I'm being an inspiration, I think I'm doing my job, I'm happy, right? If I'm, if I have kids and I'm taking care of them and I'm in a happy marriage and I'm an inspiration to people, that's me doing my job, right? And I think everything else is just an extra and it's a blessing. But I think looking to yourself and how you structure your life is the first thing, you can't put the world to rights if your life is completely out of whack. That's ridiculous. But I also think, you know, pushing more socially conservative politicians, I think the fact that childcare is subsidised in terms of actual daycares, but stay at home mothers aren't is a complete shambles. And I think that flies in the face of everything

Starting point is 00:51:45 we want to achieve. And the fact that it's a conservative government that hasn't even appreciated this fact is disheartening. But that's on a political level, that's how I'd say, we'd get to grips with that. On a personal level, live your life, as you say, other people should live their lives, and have strict standards for yourself. And a societal level, we need to just get real. We need to make male, female dynamics,

Starting point is 00:52:04 traditional roles popular again and stop, you know, when a woman says, actually, I want to stay at home and raise kids or I love cooking for my husband or whatever, let's stop demonizing her. Let's praise her. And let's have, let's do a bit more shaming. Let's, let's have about that. I absolutely believe in shaming women

Starting point is 00:52:21 that leave their houses in a, bonnet or you leave your house. What's a bonnet? So it's a black girl thing. Like, you know, it's kind of just to keep your hair intact while you sleep. You wear it at home. Yeah. You know, it's something you wear in your house.

Starting point is 00:52:33 You're, what you wear at home and what you wear into the public sends a message, right? Dress decently. Don't look like a tramp. Throw away your crocs. You know, I'm, I'm absolutely here for it. I believe in shaming. But I have the same standards for men, right? Dressed well, they're holes in your trousers. Why? You know, speak properly. Open the doors for women. Be a gentleman. Because then she will treat, she will treat you. like the lady she is, right?

Starting point is 00:52:54 And she will be kind and caring towards you and feminine. I think if you live your life that way, you are sending a positive and powerful message. And we need to do a bit more shaming because, and I don't really care, but you can see that for my Twitter feed. The fact that someone told me they're obese because they're poor. And I was like, how did you get the food if you are poor? But isn't there also like with that?

Starting point is 00:53:15 I mean, there is a certain level, like the food that you're going to be able to afford is not high quality. I don't buy that. You don't buy that? And I have a friend, Ricky Gleason, who did an experiment on Twitter, because he said he was broke for most of his life. And he was also a heroin addict for most of his young adult life. And he's never been overweight. Well, I mean, heroin does have that effect. It's an appetite suppression. The thing is, he's never been in a situation where he's had plenty or even moderate amounts. He's always been very, very poor. And he was like, you know, it's about the choices you make. Yes, fast processed food is cheap. But so is the basics that you need. My brother is always like,

Starting point is 00:53:50 Cucca, why are there so many sardines in this house? Like, bitch, because that's 40p. Yeah. And it's very healthy and it's very good for you. And I don't need to spend money on McDonald's, which is five pounds. When I can buy 40p sardines, buy some yams or potatoes, mash it together,

Starting point is 00:54:05 have some sauce or something on the side and eat it and be very happy. I cook for myself. I buy the bare minimum and I'm good, right? I don't think necessarily, because you're poor, you have to be fat. I just think it's, and also exercise is free. I, the reason why I, I live the way that I do is, one, because obviously I pull down, you have to be very fit.

Starting point is 00:54:23 And I've always up and down a pole, and I always have to go to osteopaths and physio and all of that. But it's also because it's mind and body. If I'm fit and I know I'm taking care of my body, I feel better. I'm more positive. I'm happier towards people. I'm more encouraging. Me taking care of myself and me putting in the work to improve minor aspects of my life is a net positive on society. Because when people meet me, I try and make their day better.

Starting point is 00:54:45 I try and, you know, just make them happier. Even if I make them smile, even if I tell a joke, you know, and that's because I, I'm in the state of mind and body to be able to have a positive impact on society. It's not just the fact that people are obese, right? A lot of those obese people are on antidepressants. A lot of those people have negative sort of ideas of themselves and the negative view of the world. It's a downhill, it's a downward slope. And I don't think people understand how damaging it is.

Starting point is 00:55:10 Yeah, I don't think they do. So I want to come back to what you said about childcare, because it's an interesting point, I think, about the trap, that we do find ourselves into some extent because from a government perspective, subsidizing women to stay at home with the kids from an economic perspective. Would be suicidal. Absolutely terrible idea.

Starting point is 00:55:32 And this is the trap. Once you rightly open up the workforce to women who want to work, you've doubled the size of the workforce and nearly double. Stagnated wages. Yeah, of course it has a massive effect on downward pressure on wages,

Starting point is 00:55:47 but the economy is growing. And the economy must be growing. The economy must always be growing. A lot of the metrics they use are vanity metrics, right? They're talking about trade and all of that. And I'm like, okay, it's trade, but you're buying mostly from other countries. What are you actually producing? Right.

Starting point is 00:56:00 The UK doesn't produce anything. So this is what I'm getting at, right? So because we have one of our first interviews with an economist got David Pilling, who talked about how GDP is a completely useless measure of a country's economic well-being. But my point is, if you encourage some of the socially conservative policies that you are talking about, you are then taking women back out of the workforce and suddenly the economy is not growing anymore and we can't have that, can we, Esther?

Starting point is 00:56:24 Not necessarily. You force the economy to change. You force the economy to restructure. You forced investment to go where it needs to go. You can't have it just because the thing is the jobs most women are doing are not favourable jobs anyway. Most women don't want to do the kind of jobs that they're doing now in a cubicle, you know, office administrator or whatever, right?

Starting point is 00:56:40 So it's not like you're taking away high-flying jobs in the first place. But also, I think that it's a societal benefit, right? it's not like the money is going, you need to conjure the money up. Move the money from childcare, from these sort of childcare institutions to stay at home parents. Because you're fortifying the society's social structure. It's better for the kids to actually live in that sort of environment where they have a primary caregiver and they have that attention,

Starting point is 00:57:03 but they're also sort of going to be around other kids and all of that. But also it forces the economy to restructure, and that's what we need. I mean, I've said since the 1970s around, most Western economies have atrophied, right? People say like sort of Trump, Trump's rise was the fact that he said, we're going to get all the jobs back from China. Actually, moving production eastwards is what saved a lot of the jobs in Western countries. Because, no, because that's the truth. Because these economies were atrophying in the 60s and 70s.

Starting point is 00:57:29 We weren't investing in the right places. I said the UK doesn't produce anything, but we have the second largest services industry, only, you know, second to the US, right? These are things we need to invest. We need to invest in high growth, high tech industries where it doesn't, it's not because women are not there doing the menial jobs they don't want to do anyway, that, you know, the society is tanking or the economy is crumbling or whatever. That's a myth. That's a fallacy. And also a lot of the metrics that they use to measure growth and success, they're vanity metrics, right?

Starting point is 00:57:55 Is your society success when, you know, homes are crumbling? When kids are not growing up in two-parent homes, is your society success when, you know, crime rates are through the roof because people haven't been taught proper discipline at home? They haven't received a backhand ever. No, I'm serious. That's the thing. These are vanity metrics that they're using because at the end of the day, it benefits multi-national corporations.

Starting point is 00:58:17 That's the long and short of it. It doesn't benefit anyone for women to be out of the home and not taking care of their families, for family structures to be crumbling. And a perfect example of this is the Indian community in this country, right? It's a perfect example. And I just, I don't understand why we've fallen into this, we've bought this lie that you have to keep things as a status quo

Starting point is 00:58:39 or else everything will come crumbling down. No, you have to force change, you have to force innovation. It's the same argument I say with the EU. you know, there's no such thing as free trade in the EU. The EU is the largest protectionist block on the planet, right? And because of that, a lot of companies, it's stagnated a lot of companies' ability to invest in innovation and to improve and to compete on the world stage

Starting point is 00:58:55 because they don't really need to compete on the world stage. They have this closed market of people with a certain level of income that can buy their goods and services. They get the cheap sort of raw materials from China or the East, and then they just keep ticking along. And I'm like, that's not how you grow. That's not proper progress, right? It's stagnation.

Starting point is 00:59:10 So I think it's a complete fallacy. It's such a good point. Because it does feel now like we're working against our own self-interest. And if you look at a lot of people's lives, they would say that they're not happy, they're not fulfilled, and they're doing something simply because they have to do it. I mean, and I'm really happy. One thing I am optimistic about is the rise of the Manistria's space,

Starting point is 00:59:34 to an extent, I mean, a bunch of con artists there. But I think the fact that we're even having real conversations about what men and women really want, at least that's a guide in the right direction. So if you think, right, I'm not a good idea. not going to buy the bullshit that I've been sold about being a boss babe or, you know, a guy that sleeps his way. What is a boss babe? I'm getting home. This is crap on Instagram. I keep saying I'm a boss babe. I'm like, hey, leave me alone. I don't want to hear that crap. Like, I don't

Starting point is 00:59:56 need to prove myself to anyone. But it's part of this idea like Hollywood movies where like a five foot five foot five woman just like destroys 10 massive guys in a fistfire and all of this. I'm going to get to that actually because I watched a film from Netflix and it's actually traumatized. But the thing is the fact that we're having this conversation about what men and women really want. That's a step in the right direction. Yeah. Because if you choose, if you have that information and you choose to ignore it and you still choose to go in the way that you want to find. But I think by 2030, half of women over 30 are going to be single and unmarried. So it's going downhill pretty fast. And I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but men that are clued up and are realizing this are not going for those kinds of

Starting point is 01:00:36 women. And I've actually, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. In my experience, I've had loads of guys saying, oh, I actually don't date white British women because the family values Idawhack, they're not feminine, they don't stay feminine for very long. They're just fit for like five, ten years and then it goes downhill and stuff like that. So I have people saying, oh, you know, I want a traditional African woman. I'm like, what exactly do you mean? Because are you going to call me your chocolate Beyonce? Because I've had that. I've had that in France and I'm like not here for it again. You know, I think the fact that we're having those conversations are a step in the right direction. Also, Hollywood is to blame. Yeah. Hollywood is to blame.

Starting point is 01:01:06 When I see these miniature women that are like five for five, and I'm five for five, I live in heels because I'm so short. And I see them in the superhero films and they're beating up these men or their boss babes. I just think, but why? Because it's a lie. I literally couldn't beat up anything. Why have you,

Starting point is 01:01:24 and these films that come out and they're just glorifying from obscurity and these women just acting really unfeminine. And I watched this film the other day, which is, look, I know I have a bad taste in films. I enjoy Fast and Furious and Romantic comedies. I like my entertainment low IQ. So really anything Netflix puts out

Starting point is 01:01:40 shouldn't be that bad. This was the worst film I'd ever seen. And it's because within 10 minutes of watching it, this girl, this young girl, nice waitress, was accusing this guy of casual misogyny. I was like, okay, well, we've set the standard there. And then halfway through the film, it's like, it zooms out of her flat.

Starting point is 01:01:55 And there's four flags hanging out of her flat. And one is a BLM flag. One is an LGBT flag. One, another bullshit flag. And I just think, they're not even subtle with the messaging. So they really want you to know that they don't approve of certain lifestyles

Starting point is 01:02:07 and they want you to aspire to be that boss, babe, and that if you don't have a sort of a certain image or persona, you're dull. And I'm like, I don't think anyone would ever meet me and think I'm dull, right? And I don't have to prove myself to anyone in terms of how intelligent I am. But I want to take care of a man. I want to take care of my family. I'm a really good cook. I come from her.

Starting point is 01:02:27 And I'm basically like my mother, right? My mother never, she wouldn't even let me leave the house dressed a certain way. I've never seen her look raggedy. My mom came to a parent-teacher meeting when I was in school here. And someone was like, oh, your mother's such an Eva. I was like, no. She's a woman. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:02:43 That's all I know. And I'm so grateful that I've been insulated in that way because now I see like I swip through my brother's dating. I was like, who, he's like, why are you swiping left in all them? I was like, because they're awful. And I would never let you bring any of them to this house. Summer adventures are better with Minky Couture. From road trips to ball games, beach nights to backyard movies,

Starting point is 01:03:03 Minky has you covered. Don't miss the everywhere blanket, water resistant, ultra soft, and made for life on the go. Wherever summer takes you, bring comfort along. Minky Couture.com, the original best blanket ever. It's a funny point you make about the manosphere and how men who are clued up on doing that. People are often saying to me,

Starting point is 01:03:33 well, you've just had a baby boy. It's not a good time to be a man, is it? And I'm like, it's a fucking great time to be a man. As long as you recognize the bullshit and ignore it, right? Exactly. And if you are prepared to remain a man while all of this is happening, there are plenty of women out there

Starting point is 01:03:49 who are also not into the bullshit. And part of it is that, you know, at a basic level, you can change the software, but the hardware is the same. And it's been there for thousands, tens of thousands of years, it's not going anywhere.

Starting point is 01:04:02 You can try to change the software. You can put all the crappy updates in there that you want. The hardware is the hardware. And at the end of the day, most women eventually want a man to settle down with, to have kids with. They may want to work or not. That's a different issue.

Starting point is 01:04:15 But like if... At least do something. they enjoy, right? You know, like sort of office administration and, but I also think, you know, and when I, I got probably touch on the point of humility, right? Because other than the humility to know what each other wants, also the humility is to be honest with yourself. Like, I think a lot of women have really, really, really, really high standards. And I say this as like a self-identified princess. Like, my dad goes, hello, princess. Like, daddy. And I know this about myself. But I also think, I don't think it's reason, like, everything is a trade-offs. Everything is a trade-off, right?

Starting point is 01:04:44 you might want a guy who's established and older and rich. But you know, he comes with a lot of baggage. Because to get that established and, you know, rich and whatever, you know, he's had to deal with a lot. His patient worse, worse than. He kind of wants a woman that looks a certain way. If you're not in the age bracket that he wants too bad, maybe you waited too long.

Starting point is 01:05:00 Just get real with yourself. Just be honest. And it's fine. Because at the end of the day, what you're looking for is a stability and to build something that really matters, not going for this glossy kind of perfect Ken doll that you can flash to the world.

Starting point is 01:05:13 I don't think that really matters. And as someone, my dad is, my dad is very successful, but he's really had to grind. Whenever I tell him about like, oh, I went on a date with this guy, he would be like, is he focused? He doesn't ask me what car did he bring or how did he dress? He obviously doesn't want some hobbit in his house. But the point is he just say, is he focused? Because he knows that's something that I can work with because he knows me exactly. He was like, look, Kukwa, you're very intelligent, you're very feminine, you're very old

Starting point is 01:05:35 this, but you need someone that is on that wavelength. Because if you want to build with a man like that, you need a man who's looking for that woman to build with. You can't put a sort of square peg in a round hole. It doesn't fit. It just needs to go together. Focus is such an attractive quality in a man, particularly, because that's the currency of masculinity is doing stuff.

Starting point is 01:05:58 Drive and focus and discipline and consistency. And I think one of the things, I mean, when I was, one of my ex used to say, you never bother me. And I was like, why? I've been quiet for this. I'm assuming you're working. You're doing something busy. And he was like, why do you think like that?

Starting point is 01:06:11 I was like, because that's what my dad does. right? I don't always spend time with my dad I haven't seen my dad since December 2020 because of the pandemic but I know he's working and then he'll send me messages of a project he's finished and I'm like yay my daddy's a fault you know and I praise him and he knows I'm very very proud of him but he also knows that he's raised me to know that the kind of man

Starting point is 01:06:28 you want is not going to be sitting around always having time for you he does not going to message you 24-7 you need to be, you need to understand that you need to be able to keep yourself busy that's why I'm the kind of person that loves to learn new things and always do things I'm crazy enough to be spinning on a pole in my underwear But it's fun for me and it's a net positive for everyone

Starting point is 01:06:46 because I'm taking care of myself to the best of my ability to know that I'm enough for you and I can be what you need and on a societal level as well I'm a positive influence and I think everyone should have that mindset. You need to have strict standards with yourself. Yeah, completely agree. But Esther, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming in.

Starting point is 01:07:03 The last question we always ask is... Before our locals questions. Before our locals questions. Is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be. And obviously, the question is, who makes a better Jolov rice, Nigeria-A. You don't need to ask.

Starting point is 01:07:18 It's obviously gone in. And I say this as a fantastic cook. I actually taught my Nigerianx how to cook Jolov, so he's accepted it. Really? Yes. I told him at uni. Well, I used to make it.

Starting point is 01:07:28 And he's like, can you show me in case you dumped me? I was like, okay. And I showed him, it was like, no, it's legit. I actually probably talked about to cook properly. And then she dumped him anyway. Yeah. Well, he had to go back home. But one of the things I think...

Starting point is 01:07:40 You're saying that than me saying that. You had to go back on. I never slag off my ex. Yeah, I know. He pissed off his dad. No, I never slag off. That's another thing. A woman or anyone that slags off their exes run

Starting point is 01:07:51 because there's no person responsibility there. You chose them. I think one thing we're not talking about enough that we should be talking about is probably abortion. I know that's really heavy. But I really, really hate the attitude that we have towards it.

Starting point is 01:08:05 Like, it's just a black or white issue. I watch this case. comedian, I don't remember who was, but she was like, it's my body, my show, like, no, at that point, it's not your body, it's an apartment. Right. You're sharing with a co-tenant, which I thought was really funny. But I think, and regardless of what side you lean on, I don't like this idea that we, we make it not a moral issue.

Starting point is 01:08:23 It's clearly a moral issue, right? Because what's growing inside you is not a chair, but at the same time as well, their circumstances like a woman being raped or being underage that's like, well, you know, it's, it's really sad, but that line is very divided. And I think the fact that contraception is free and readily available in the UK and one in four pregnancies are aborted by young women that really 50 years ago would have been married in a family and having those children, I think it's a huge blight in society. And I think when we're at the point now where people are really just not having kids

Starting point is 01:08:53 because they can't afford a home or all the basic things, I think it's suicidal that we're not really having constructive conversations about that because there's so many issues that I have around how we talk about abortion. And I admire the Americans as passionate as they are for at least really. recognizing that it's a more issue, at least in the middle ground, not on the fringe ends, whether it's like it's just a polyp or, you know, it's murder on the other side. You know what I mean? We've had great conversations on this show with Anne Fioradi and Dr. Callum Miller from the both pro-and-a-and-a-and-a-side.

Starting point is 01:09:25 But I think actually it comes back to the very good point that you made earlier in this conversation, which is I actually don't know that we would need to talk abortion quite as much as I think we do need to talk about it now. if some of the family stuff that you were talking about earlier was in a different place. Yeah, absolutely. And just, I think that's one of the biggest problems that we face. I don't think people understand. And I don't know, to be honest, I don't know the extent to which my profile is going to grow or to the extent to which my voice regarding societal issues in this country will grow enough.

Starting point is 01:09:57 But if it does, and I'm really hoping I'm blessed it will, that's something I really want to talk about. But I also want to reflect that in my own life. I don't want to just be that kind of person that's harping on about it. One, I've seen it. I've grown up in that family. I've seen the benefits of it. But also, I want my life to imitate that. And I want people to see that as possible. And I just want men and women to be better, particularly women,

Starting point is 01:10:18 because I think we've been fed so many lies. Well, a great note to end on. Esther, thank you so much for coming on the show. Really pleasure to chat with you. A really great pleasure to chat with you. We're going to ask you a couple of questions from our locals. But in the meantime, where can people find you and follow your work? If you dare on Twitter

Starting point is 01:10:35 If you're bold enough Esther K underscore K I'm on Twitter I do a lot of work for talk so you can see me on Pierce Morgan's show Unsensored or The Talk, which is a panel show on Talk TV

Starting point is 01:10:47 but I also write for the Daily Mail and the Daily Express as well so all over Fantastic, thanks for coming on thank you for watching and listening we'll see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or Oral show

Starting point is 01:10:59 all of them go out at 7pm UK time And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast. Take care and see you soon, guys. And I have a lot to say about kind of the dinghies and people that are coming across the channel. Because I actually, and I say I have a really personal experience with someone who did that trip across the Mediterranean, but he's in Italy now. Well, Esther, I know we've got to local questions, but this is really interesting. If you've got time, tell us about that.

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TRIGGERnometry - "Women Have Been Scammed" - Esther Krakue

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