Trillbilly Worker's Party - Episode 387: Out Of The Whimsical Frying Pan, Into The Fire (w/ special guest Will Oldham)

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

This week we're joined by musician and actor Will Oldham (aka Bonnie "Prince" Billy) to discuss tariffs, breathing, artificial "intelligence," Clever Hans, Kentucky history, and the new Bonnie "Prince" Billy album, "The Purple Bird," out now where all fine records are sold Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/trillbillyworkersparty

Went still today. Yeah. Yeah keep us from belching into the microphone. That's true do you want to be gassy when you podcast and that's a As true today as it was 140 years ago, yeah. Yep In the early early days of podcasting All right, we're rolling. Alright. Welcome to the show this week everybody. We're recording this episode on a

propitious week. Is that the right word I'm looking for? Couldn't be more propitious, I don't think. This is as propitious as it gets. The most propitious week of my life. It seems like the economy is tanking. Well, I just say that because we just went and got coffee and everybody in the coffee shop was looking at the TV very nervously.

They were sort of like on the edge of their seats like biting their nails. Yeah. Like very cartoonishly. It's times like these. I think God, I don't really understand. I understand like chairs and to some degree art not financial instruments. I'm kind of insulated from it to some degree even though. Right. Yeah. I see my line going down but in real terms I don't know what that. Right. No, no. Yeah.

Ideally it's a huge source of optimism because it would realistically potentially be the downfall of the present administration and so we should all kind of be secretly celebrating, right? It's one of those things, Will, I've asked myself that many times as well. Because I myself have thought multiple times, like, we live inside of his dream, right? Like we are sort of... Speak for yourself, yes. I myself am a constituent, construction of this man's imagination. Yeah.

And so when he goes down- You are Trump's wet dream. I am his wet dream. So when he goes down, I'm probably going down too, I would assume. But you're also right, maybe there is a reading where his downfall is our time to shine, our time to rise.

It seems historically like I'm being told that this particular kind of tariff business has brought the downfall of American rulers prior to this one. Interesting. And it seems like the one thing that wouldn't be forgiven by the misled who cast their ballots in questionable ways. You're right. Well, I did see that Newt Gingrich said that what he wanted to do with the terrorists

was return us to the glory days of America previous to World War one when podcasting was thriving and people were investigating the death of he just wants to see hoop skirts he was mercury poisoning and yeah hoops skirts and stuff yeah yeah yeah I can't really it's that's a really funny Cuz you know a lot of politics now is just some Signal to a bygone era like whether it's like 50s Fortist production with strong unions and stuff New Deal era Make America great again. I guess I don't know. I don't know what they mean by that the 80s 90s I don't know what I have some hunches. Oh at the time

Maybe they're talking about that part needs tightening the big the big one Of all the times though to be wistful for like before World War I, I don't think we were a powerhouse before World War I, right? Well this has been my thing with the tariffs, and again as a man that doesn't understand financial instruments, it seems that a country that doesn't really make tactile things anymore doesn't stand to benefit from tariffs,

because what are we giving to anybody else? We were just talking before we got here, they're like even bourbon's a little bit on the rocks because of the tariffs on, get to it. Because of Canada's, the Canadian tariffs, which is- They love bourbon up there, apparently.

Apparently, yeah. Yeah, our signature industry's in beautiful Kentucky, threatened by this guy, you know? I think all of us are without answers, right? Because this is unprecedented, from what I understand. I've got the answers, with without answers right because this is unprecedented from what I understand I've got the answers just ask the right question. Well, what is the What's the question what is happening? Where do we go from here? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my basic question is what is a tariff?

The question is, what is a tariff? Let's start there. A tariff is a tax. A tariff is a tax. Galevy. Another word for it. Roger, I think, would just be like, yep, yep, we got it. One entry. Right, Roger.

Damn, that's a deep pool. I swear to God I've been saying Roget's first. God, that's embarrassing. What is Roger? Is he like he's he like a old Political he's like no he's like webs. He ran the sources business Thorif business he was the guy in the the thorif business both the web through who then the dictionary business. That's true Yeah, he's the Merriam Webster of the Sun. He's still around Jerry Britannica who had that famous series of informational texts as well.

Yeah. Gerald H. Britannica. Gerald H. Britannica. Good guy, great guy. Yeah, I don't know why I thought Roger was maybe some, like David Ricardo or some 19th century political economist who had, you know, like laws of economics. Oh, I see.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Adam Smith. No, he just likes words. Just likes words. Yeah, yeah. He just cooks with words. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cooks with words. All right, so we've established what a tariff is, is a tax on something. Yeah. Now, the way it was- Everybody's unhappy. Everybody is unhappy, it seems like. All the leaders are unhappy.

They're not happy. No. No. Because everybody's quality of life is significantly threatened right now and that's and There's still it's amazing to believe that you know Donald Trump is probably the only leader in the Western world who does not feel as if the citizenry is his Superior. Yeah, that's true. He doesn't really feel as as was

Demonstrated in his truth social Posts today, I don't know if you guys saw this the operation is over the patient lived and is healing the prognosis Is that the patient will be far stronger bigger bigger, better, and more resilient than ever before. I think he's saying. I'm gonna charge you a quarter for every time you look at your phone for information during this conversation. I hope you have quarters in that pocket.

I didn't memorize it before I came. And I'm gonna spend them on peanut M&Ms at the hardware store and the gumball machine at the entrance. Actually, they have Skittles at the hardware store. At Feeder's Supply, they have peanut M&Ms. Way to call me out, Will, that I didn't memorize all of the trumps. At Feeder's Supply, they have Peanut M&Ms. Way to call me out, Will, that I didn't memorize all of the trumps.

Not that you didn't memorize it, but it's that you look to that device for authority on anything, and that, I think, is a principal reason why we are in some of the situations that we're in today, is because people think, why don't I look here at this completely manipulated and biased information and take it for truth? You're right. So, which is ironic that he posted it to a website called truth. So it's not ironic. He's part He's you it's the reason he's in office is because he counts on people to turn to these things. That's not ironic at all That's exactly

Exemplary of what I'm talking about. That's a good point. Well, have you ever looked on the internet and found something out about yourself? You didn't know No, no, never not once it's like I don't look on the internet. found something out about yourself you didn't know? No. No, never not once. It's like, I don't look on the internet honestly all that much. You don't get on the internet much, huh? Yeah, you are. You are suspicious. No, not suspiciously.

Curiously, just absent from all the socials. Are you happier as a result? I'm sure. You seem like it. Yeah. I mean, I'm still perversely fond of Twitter. Yeah. And it seems as if it's, you know, kind of, the mass evacuation from Twitter seems kind of yellow to me.

Mm-hmm. It's saying like, I don't like this. Right. I'm gonna run away from this. Yeah, yeah. It's just like, you know, people say, there's so much hate speech on there, and it's like, you realize you curate your feed.

Like you are responsible for all of the hate that's screaming into your face directly and you can stop it with your fingers. Right, just some. Yeah, if you wanna just follow music Twitter, you can follow music Twitter and you never hear about racism, if you want to. Don't have to wade through snuff films and none of that stuff.

No, that's helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be a boon to my constitution right now, because I feel like. Yeah, but yeah, I don't. I mean, there's so many places for such more reliable information. You know, and it seems as if it's getting less reliable by the nanosecond. You're right. Well, I think the thing is, earlier you raised the point, that is Trump beholden to any kind of, what you would call like a democratic accountability, right?

Like, or does he dictate the terms and then they follow? The quote I read off seems to imply, like what he said, it's gonna be like a post surgery Operate like a post operation recovery America will have a recovery time where we're all gonna like it We're gonna we're gonna like the fact that everything costs ten times what it once did So that would seem to verify your claim that he basically sets the terms and does whatever he wants.

Wait, when did I say that? I never said anything like that. That has never come out of my mouth and it never will. I'm not a very good podcast. Yeah, his driving, I mean, it seems like his driving force is his inner demons that were spawned by Generational trauma and mistreatment by his dad probably that's true And that's kind of it his dad his dad does not like it He's mad about that because he wanted to be a singer like he wanted it

He wanted to be a producer. I could help him with that Yeah, not a producer, but I could help him do a singer. You should help him. What did he what kind of singing? Did he wanted that? Well? I think he wanted we talked about it. It's him taking over the still giving kid rock lyrics Not a producer, but I could help you do a singer. Use an elbow. What kind of singing did he want to do? I think he wanted, we talked about it, it's him taking over the... He's still giving Kid Rock lyrics. He is. He's writing. You're right. We just had Kid Rock here in town earlier in the week, I think. Maybe Sunday at the Yum Center.

I wonder how he's selling these days. Friday. Has the Trump thing been the net positive for him? It seemed pretty massive. We were biking downtown to see some music at, they had the Louisville Folk School has a music series that they sometimes do at the Art Hotel 21C. So we were biking down to that and just seeing, it was so difficult to peg who the people milling about on the

streets of downtown Louisville were, you know, we couldn't figure it out. And then finally I saw somebody with a kid rock shirt and two and two added together to create three. And I knew exactly what was going on. Smelled pure unadulterated American bad ass. Yeah, that's non-mistakable. Yeah, that's a non-mistakable smell. Yeah, that's true. That is true. I just saw he was recently in the White House.

I think it was just a few days later. Yeah, he went straight from the Yum Center to the White House. I saw something the other day, like a former tour manager, maybe it wasn't even a tour manager, it was something that was talking about like, he has like a firm no autographs policy. And so like, you know know you'd pay for these meet-and-greets you know how like you do and like kids. But if you ask for an autograph you get an electric prod. Yeah something like that. Well he would shut it down if a kid like snuck a sharpie in and asked him to sign his t-shirt and

then like say. Well you have to have principles. Yeah that's true. If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. That's true. I would have said to him, I'm sorry I didn't pat down this nine year old boy, am I bad? Someone conned him one time into signing a contract of some kind. So he was like, I'm never signing anything ever again. Yeah. I'm not getting hooked into a 9% APR.

9% APR That's what it is these days that's interest rates are pretty high these days on everything should we be investing can you buy the Certificates of deposit the seed those kinds of CDs. Oh ones that haven't bounced back yet That's you could I guess my thing would be I'm not betting big on America right now, I don't think. I think I'm selling. I don't know if that's bearish or bullish, but I'm selling on it. Well, buying a CD is just, you just give them, you know, a thousand dollars and they give you a thousand dollars, a thousand and six dollars back in six months or something like that. Oh, nice. Depending on the rate, but it's a fixed rate, I think, when you purchase the CD, right? Yeah, I guess that is true.

And so if the interest rates are going up, it's possible that the CD interest rates are also going up, and that might be if you have $1,000 sitting around. I think if it's 6%, you'd make 600 bucks. That's true. No, 60 bucks. 60 bucks, well, still. There we go.

Thank you, George Walker. That was my sixth grade math teacher. Well, that's the thing about, because when I see numbers, my brain just kind of glazes over. Well that's the thing about, cause like when I see numbers, my brain just kinda glazes over. So with the tariff stuff, I don't, I'm having a hard time understanding, keeping track of it all, right?

Because it's a barrage of numbers that are just thrown at you. Like Trump held up that big thing yesterday that said reciprocal tariffs on it, had all the countries with the percentage of the tariff on it and again that makes me panic they had a formula for how they came up with that that seems like we could have cooked this up in the first 12 minutes of the show but wasn't it

like they took the debt owed they took the trade deficit with the the country and divided it by their exports to us. And that was how they arrived. And then did like multiplied it by 0.5 because Trump said he's generous, generous. He's a magnanimous. Generous. He's generous, yeah.

And that's how they came up with the terror, is what I heard. Which is probably how I would have done it. Probably how I would have done it. Well, it's also just kind of misrepresenting like everybody thinks like, oh so everything imported from China gets taxed 47% so it's kind of like a little look what they're doing to us. Right.

Kind of thing. I saw the Treasury Secretary said that we weren't going to be picked on anymore. Uh huh, yeah yeah. No. That's cool. Yeah, I did hear I did hear Our fearless leader talking today about how much the United States has been raped and pillaged by everybody else in the entire world Yeah, I must have missed that. I must have been he yeah, he raped pillaged and there was and maybe robbed Yeah, by the entire world. I don't know pillaged recently, but it might happen. I might have been Here sleep at the will these days

Been recently diagnosed with sleep apnea. Well, yeah sleep apnea I spent last night hyperventilating in a broom closet during a tornado warning. So apologies if you know we're a little fuzzier How you feeling about that? Not so great, but I'm learning breath work. Have you read that book? I have. The Nestor book? I've read it and I've been practicing the breath exercises in it.

It hasn't helped with the sleep apnea. Are you chewing gum? I am. I actually chewed some Turkish gum on the way over here. Is it like domestic gum? It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that the recommendation in the book?

It is a recommendation. It was a recommendation in the book. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's like, you can either go paleo and eat a bunch of meat, or you can just chew gum. I'm gonna chew some gum. I think I'm.

Yeah, chew some cud. I'm gonna chew some cud. I don't think I'm gonna eat a bunch of steaks. I think you can beat this one. You think so? Yeah, I think so. I appreciate your optimism. I think it's fully beatable.

Yeah. I hope so. I've really struggled with it. It's because I have too small of a mouth. Too big of a tongue. Well, that's what the chewing is all about. It expands your mouth. That's what a tongue. Well, that's what the chewing is all about. It expands your mouth. That's what they say.

Yeah. Yeah. See, what I don't think I agree with in the book is that there are some people he talks to who claim to have like devices that you can put in your mouth that through epigenetic signaling will return you to our ancestral forebeers who were on the savanna.

Like a retainer. Like a retainer, basically. Yeah. That seems a little out there for me. I don't know. Why does that seem out there? I don't know how the body would know just because you're wearing a retainer. It keeps the score for one. Well, it's true. It does keep the score for God. But maybe that's why. Maybe that's how the body knows it's like oh

I'm supposed to be on this Vanna. I'm supposed to have a big mouth. I'm supposed to Yeah You know have a large throat Yeah, I don't know how I don't know how a retainer would do that, but they say epigenetic signaling so Maybe it's all within us. Yeah, I think it's you know it probably is I mean this might think of this as a stretch in terms of a metaphor But I don't think it is necessarily if you for example have a used or new fancy fancy car It will run poorly on The cheaper gasoline right will run well on the good gasoline once you put the good gasoline and it will run well again

Right and so if you treat your body as it is meant to be treated it will I think return to Balance I need to drink good gasoline you need to drink good gasoline Body the way like we you know your body's like this is hundreds of thousands, if not more, years of evolution. Uh-huh. You know, if you just treat it like it's meant to be treated, it will work. Because we wouldn't, you know, the species would not be on earth if it didn't work. That's true.

And I'm not saying that I, I'm not saying that that's all. I guess what I'm saying is I need to know how it works specifically. I need to know like, because here's my problem. Maybe you struggle with this, maybe you don't. Maybe, I don't know how you guys feel about this, but like sometimes I hear some of this stuff and I'm like, oh, if I heard this on the Joe Rogan program,

would I still think it was like legit, right? Or would I think it was like someone trying to like sell me something? Hmm, then that's everything though, right? Someone's always trying to sell you something. I don't listen to Joe Rogan program On the internet someone's always trying to sell you something if you're just walking around the street talking to people You're not being sold stuff. Most of the time. It's pretty nice life. You're not being solicited. Yeah However, I will say everybody's really that you make being solicited with every single thing that you do every time you pick up your phone

You're being solicited. You're right. You're right. It's exhausting. They've got it really dialed in to you know They just know how to exactly how to scratch that itch. I bought a colorful Frying pan once and I don't know how new that I was after a whimsical frying pan, but Sure enough. Do you? Yeah, it did lasted about six months. Yeah Another like other weird stuff like, you know, I mean it's dude you must be cooking some serious shit six months on a frying pan I was doing Yeah, I was doing some things. They're good with the ads for the most part. It is like downright eerie.

Like, I don't even know, like even like when I'm tracking stuff in like my fitness pal or something, like just macros or calories or something. Like if I've put it in there like six months ago, but I've just recently went to it, like it's just right there in my like, when it hadn't been before. I don't know, it's like a little.

Oh, did I tell you, because it probably happened around the time, last time we met, maybe we were staying at a cabin in the Red River Gorge. And... upstairs in the loft of this little cabin, was a sleeping loft, there was a bedside lamp in the shape of a raven.

Okay. Like the bird. Like the bird. Yeah. Interesting. And nobody talked about it, but I looked at my phone and in a scrolling, in a feed, whatever, there was an ad for the same lamp.

Does that lamp emanate? Because we did not talk about it. The best that we could come up with was that once we logged into the WiFi network of the cabin, they had maybe purchased it there. And so it remembers the address of the Wi-Fi network and because there's no we didn't even I didn't you know I don't have I never bring my phone near my bed ever yeah much less if I'm on vacation so the phone

didn't even go up near this lamp uh-huh it stayed on the first floor as opposed to going up in the sleeping loft but that was interesting it could be it could be a platonic thing. Maybe Plato is right and the forms do emanate themselves. They assert themselves into the whatever, ether, whatever. And our phones know how to pick up on that now. I saw some potentially, it was off-putting but potentially helpful advice, which I'll pass on to you all if you

didn't see it. There was some sort of a travel advisor person who posted, you know, here's how to behave if and when you are at a foreign border crossing, including flying in or out of the United States, and the customs authorities seize your phone, and here are your rights, which basically have almost no rights. So they can, you know, anything and everything that you have on your phone, they can access and do whatever they wish with that information. Which is pretty interesting, and it's just so wonderful that we as a population have made it so easy for people to access our entire

personal and professional lives in the matter of seconds. Well it's kind of like the digital broad form deed you know like in Eastern Kentucky where they swooped in there and took all the mineral rights out before we even knew it was worth anything. Sure yeah. Now they know that our data was worth all this money because I'm buying Whim school frying pans Yeah, I didn't even know it was worth anything. You know when no they know yeah, that's what it Yeah, it's all about well It does have the effect regardless of how it works with regardless of the mechanism by which it works

Whether it's because it was bought on the same IP address or Because it does emanate Regardless it does have the effect of making you feel like you're in a dream. You're like, how did this thing manifest here? When I didn't talk about it was just in my environment Right it like has it in the sense that like dreams often reproduce like Echoes like there's things that don't really make sense. There's recurring like motifs and stuff like that. It does have the effect of making you feel a little bit like surreal that

everything's a little off the society that that reality is a little more, um, planned than you would think. Maybe this is why people think. I don't think, I mean, I think it has the effect of understanding that these are tools that are attempting to, and to a great extent, succeeding in enslaving our subconscious as well as our conscious. That's what you mean by dreamlike, yes. That is what I mean by dreamlike. But, I mean, for me it is just another thing that says, okay, put this thing down. It does not belong copulating with your consciousness sub, or not.

You're right. It was all we could do to keep from saying Lynchie in there, wasn't it? Well, yeah, I guess I have been watching a lot of Lynch movies, because he passed recently. Do you have any special connection, David Lynch? Just same as everybody. Same as everybody? Hey, just, yeah, David Lynch? Just same as everybody. Same as everybody. Hey, just, yeah, I'm right there with you guys. That was, I mean, that was a wonderful moment of realizing common threads that you might

not have, or I didn't suspect, you know, that I shared with so many people, you know, that kind of relationship with his output. That was really nice. Yeah, well I guess what I'm saying, just bear with me here, just bear with me here, what I'm saying is that regardless of the truth that you just said, that it is trying to enslave us, maybe less wise people than us, they don't really, well shit, I say less wise,

I myself sometimes, I look at my phone and I'm like, oh, it makes you feel sometimes like you live in a simulation or something, right? It's like. Makes one feel. Makes one feel. Stop using that second person. I'm not trying to put it on you.

It doesn't make me feel that way. I mean, what makes me feel that way. I mean what makes me feel that way is that people continue to carry these things around and let them dump. That makes me feel like I live in them. But anything that happens on the phone itself does not make me feel that way because I've understood now for years that that's what it is. That's what it does. That's its function. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not interesting or weird or compelling at all. It's not interesting or weird or compelling at all. It's annoying, off-putting, alienating, and disgusting. I'm speaking to a common experience, Will. I'm a-

That I do not share. I'm a tribune for the common, man. Yeah, yeah. I guess I'll vote for Trump. My phone is telling me to. This Zuckerberg guy, he's pretty smart. He's got a lot of money. He's building an underground city in Kauai.

I've heard he's the shoe in for the new Musk. I've heard he was spotted at the white house recently because he'll last another six weeks. He might. Yeah. He'll just cycle through all the tech guys. I do wonder when the Musk honeymoon will be over. And hopefully, yeah, sooner rather than later.

But I wonder if newspapers are saying to yesterday and today yeah yeah yeah Trump knows if there's one thing he does know it's one to fold a shitty hang so I think it's because of those Wisconsin like Supreme Court races I think that was kind of what made Trump think that maybe must didn't have the juice after all. No, maybe no, but Yeah Well germane to your line of questioning here something that we've been thinking about will on this program for several months is this as These sort of what we dubbed techno feudalists, you know the

F-u-t-i-l-i-s-t yes Yeah, a few hundred percent. Yeah dubbed techno feudalists, you know, the, the F U T I L I S T. Yes. Yeah. A few times. 100%. You know, uh, and then echoing the language of cataclysm and apocalypse and, you know, signaling the end and all this stuff. I read one time that, uh, you were on the island of Hawaii when the nuclear, uh, alarm had went off. And what's funny is I'd read that much less after when I'd first or much more after I had heard that Magic Johnson

was also there. So when I think of that story I think of you and Magic Johnson. He was there? He was there that day as well? Yeah, I like to think of you two hanging out together. Phil Elverm was there about a week later. Oh, really? Yeah. So when that happened, and you thought, OK, this could be cataclysm, this could be it, what does one do in that situation if they've never felt what it might be like under the threat of nuclear annihilation? You yourself. Yeah.

What do they call, there's probably a great name for the marquees outside of churches that, where they put the Sunday service time and then usually add a witty or inspiring phrase about our relationship to the divine. Yeah, yeah, exposure to the S.O.N. prevents burning. Body piercing saved my life. That one's good. Oh, there's a great one down here at Crescent Hill Methodist Church that says, sun worship and the time. You know? I like that.

It's like going back to their pagan roots. We're not making any bones about it anymore. But one that said, you know, times don't make a human, it reveals a human. And I feel like, you know, it made me have double down on my faith in my life partner, my wife and myself, because we were there together. And we were, it was during the first rain of his carrotness. And so it didn't, well, two things. One is we were enduring a government shutdown. We were living on the grounds of a national park.

So we were, and it was a weekend. So they had had to cut the staff down to bare bones and there was basically nobody there. And even when there were people there, they were putting us up in some government housing that we were on top of a volcano, so we didn't have self-service and we didn't have internet service. I mean, we had self-service enough that we could reliably, you could send a text and it would go out within five to 10 minutes after you wrote it and tried to send it.

So it's Saturday morning. We're pretty much alone up here, up there on that volcano. And we got up and, you know, we indulged in our marital privileges and then went out to the living room area of the little cabin and our phones were at opposite corners of the room and we both leaned down picked up her phone we each looked down and saw this text that you know in in kind of a font with a symbol that I'd never seen before on a text. And it said that ballistic missiles were incoming. And this is not a drill and something like

take necessary precautions and that was it. And it said this is not a drill. Where were they coming from? It didn't say, but at that time it was January, I believe, of 2018. So my immediate assumption was that Hawaii being the closest to North Korea, and there'd been a bunch of posturing and inflammatory verbiage flown from our leader to their leader. And I just thought, oh, well, that makes sense. That's probably what's going on.

You know, and, but we're in the middle of the biggest of the populated Hawaiian islands, the big Island of Hawaii. And so to get from where we were just even to the coast, thinking that that might be, you know, an exit point or somehow safer than being in the middle, would have taken us 45 minutes. So we each are in our little corners looking at our phones, and I think I may have said, did you get the same text? She said, yeah. Do you want coffee? And we had coffee. And yeah, I think, I don't know what my brain was thinking. Yeah, there's.

Is it the idea? I've always thought this and I'm curious to know. It's like, you know, like I said, I was hyperventilating in a broom closet about a tornado warning last night. You know, there's a watch is like I can sleep through that. That's the ice cream truck, you know, you're talking about. But the warning's like, I need my head on a swivel. Were you like, or was you, are you kind of like, zoomed out?

That's what I mean. I mean, that's that it felt, ultimately it felt really good because, you know, I don't know, it's I'm not 100%. I know in general, my reaction to extreme conditions is calm. So it doesn't mean that in four hours or 24 hours my system won't fail, but initially that's what it does. It just takes it in and thinks, well, what do we do about this situation right now? And you can have your emotional reaction later, but that's just how my system works for better or for worse.

So, it'd be nice to think that I was thinking grandly that this moment is no different from another moment, any given moment in one's life or afterlife. But probably more realistically it was that I have an executive decision-making process that usurps all other processes, I think. That's how it just works. Yeah. And then it was maybe 30 or 40 minutes later, they sent the follow-up text saying, oops. We did. We had 30 or 40 minutes of and we didn't.

Yeah, we didn't behave in extraordinary way except to behave very ordinarily and to appreciate who we were and where we were and who we were with. It's something I've been trying to kind of wrap my head around is like in thinking about the sort of, you know, everybody's sort of obsession with the end now, you know, and like there is something significantly less scary about the idea of us all walking into the light together. Yeah. Rather than like the scary part about death is just it like looks like it hurts one and two.

It looks like you kind of got to do it alone while everybody else carries on the party without you. That's the scary part. You know, but there is this like great release, I think. And that's why I asked the question because somebody that's actually had to stare that down, you know, like you get to view your own funeral or something like that, you know, like what that experience is like, you know, like you get to view your own funeral or something like that, you know. Yeah. Like what that experience is like, you know.

That's what it felt like. For us, that's what it felt like. Yeah. It was a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, which brings me to my next question. So what happens after we die?

No, I wanted to heart pivot and talk about the record a little bit. Last time we did this I was like, oh yeah, we were like five minutes into the end of the show. I wanted to say a couple things. I love this record. It's called The Purple Bird. Nobody's trying to sell you anything, but before your money evaporates tomorrow, probably, you should probably go buy this record, wherever fine records are sold. Get your investments in while you still can.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for the, yeah. But I've seen a lot of places calling this a country record, and I can see why, you know, a lot of people say that. You got, you know, the god John Anderson on there, you got Tim O'Brien on there who's fantastic. It feels to me like this record, I think it shares a little bit of a palette

with like your last two in kind of way. Like, is there like some connective tissue between these two, like between the three things that you would say? Of course there is, but it's pretty, it's just, it was a wonderful experience from the beginning to the end, but it's very different because it's the proportion of human beings who contributed to the record as musicians and or writers or producers that I am personally familiar with and in some sort of deep fashion is a lot lower on this record than it has been on any other record that I've ever been involved with. Like it's all Nashville based

Nashville-based strangers or casual acquaintances. You know, I've been privileged to have a communication and a casual acquaintanceship with John Anderson for maybe a decade or something like that. But, yeah, I mean I don't and with Tim O'Brien as well probably for a similar amount of time. And then the keyboard player Mike Rojas, I've done a couple of sessions with him, although he doesn't remember that. And the same with Stuart Duncan who plays fiddle on it. He played on the Bonnie Prince Billy Sings Greatest Palace Music 20 years ago. And I had to tell him that as well. So it's, you know, usually, you know, I find

that the strength of a record is made up of connective tissue that has a basis in previous connections of some sort, personal and or professional, you know, sometimes it might be like Don McCarthy, whose music I, you know, I'm infatuated with. Yeah. But I know her music intimately. Or my brother, Ned, you know, who I just happen to know because we have to grow up together. Spencer Tom around. Yeah. And everywhere in between. But this was this was strange because it was all. Although, you know, for example, the woman, Brit Taylor, who sings on it. Eastern Kentucky, Eastern Kentucky, and her husband, Adam Chafee, who sings on it. Eastern Kentucky. Eastern Kentucky.

And her husband, Adam Chafee, also sings on it. He's Eastern Kentucky. But, yeah, Ferg had helped Sturgill Simpson produce a record on Britt Taylor. Maybe a year ago, he had played some in the car. When I heard Britt Taylor's voice, it was the kind of experience where it's like a personal forever voice where I felt like, oh, this is a voice that whether she knows it or not is a part of a part of me. You know, I'm just listening to it and just like what just listen to her moves, how she moves and with her voice and thinking.

Oh, you know, I kept seeing like, can we hear another one? Can we hear another one? Because it just felt like she was, you know, I kept seeing like, Ferg, can we hear another one? Can we hear another one? Because it just felt like she was, you know, my musical friend, even though I didn't know if we would ever meet or anything like that. And then when we were tracking, I said to Ferg, you know, can we, what would you think about calling Britt Taylor and see if she would? He said, we should get her husband too. He's a good singer. Yeah, Britt Taylor is one of our big whiffs on the show. When Sturgill was producing that record, they'd reached out to us to get her on here because, well, Will, as you know, I'm unreliable sometimes, so it just kind of fell through. But that's one of those where it's like, we need to make.

Where's she from in East Kentucky? I think she's from, maybe Pressensburg? I don't want to say wrong. Pressensburg or Pikeville? One of the P's, I think. Yeah, I think so. I think Pressensburg. I don't want to say wrong. Pressensburg or Pikeville. One of the P's I think. Yeah, I think so. I think so, yeah. Yeah. Nice. So yeah, and I, you know, I had asked about the connective tissue and I realized that's one of those things like saying organically or sonically in like a music interview.

It's like, you know, I don't think I've read a music interview where somebody doesn't say organically or sonically, you know, in the last like 20 years. But I say that just because there's like, just like I feel like a such a hopeful refrain. Yeah, those three records. And I didn't know if that's like, you know, I don't want to bog you down talking about the process. What do you think of the time? But it does feel like there's like a, um, I like microbial now that's becoming hot. It's microbial? It's good. Yeah. Microbiome, you know, the sonic and cultural microbiome, which scientists, as far as I know, aren't able to measure yet, but I believe is as valid or more than, you know, the biological microbiome that is, I believe, a zeitgeist-y topic of conversation.

But I do, I mean, I think Ferg has relatively high standards, I believe, and I think that he knew we could get in there and make something that felt like it had a history and had a foundation, I believe. Otherwise he would have just as he's done for the last 20 years been friends with me but not really wanted to introduce me to his friends on a professional level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of those things. Is it true, is it true that when you put out the first Palace record you took at the Apple Shop, WMNT, on a CD? First, uh, 7-inch. Really? Yeah. Oh, High River Boat Song and Drinking Woman. Yeah. Who was there at the time? Oh my gosh, I don't know. That would have been probably

92, I believe. Yeah. Tom Hansel, shout out. He's probably there. Robert Guy. Robert Guy, D-Day. Yeah, that was one of the first places, I mean that was the first place, first radio station I took the record to, I'm sure. Yeah. Do you remember me serving you a bowl of pinto beans at? C-time on the come about 2012 I know you probably remember something like that was that was that was that was when Juanita played on it Yeah, and then we had the Gene Richie roundtable kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, Nathan Salzberg and Sam Yeah, yeah, that was a fun thing to be a part of. Nathan. Yeah.

Part of that rural urban exchange we did. I wasn't involved with it much after that. That's where I met Alex Udus and all your compatriots up there. It was a fun time. I did. I had another great DJ night there where we just, I think I brought a bunch of records and we played a bunch of we mixed it between June Apple records and records I brought

and did like three hours of DJing it was yeah it was super fun yeah well some of your favorite June Apple yeah put me on the spot well I think last time I was here I saw you had a Rich Kirby it yeah album in there. Yeah, they can't put it back It's a great album. Yeah Got a big mining machine on it. I was there on the cover. Oh man, that's and Have you all listened to the? Yazoo, you know seven CD box of Kentucky music and then the two CDs that proceeded at Kentucky Mountain music and then the two CDs that preceded it Kentucky Mountain Music

Compilations on all I know I'm maybe talking about the English synth pop band at first I think that's a different yes, they call you as you think I can Kaja goo goo yeah They're yes here in Yazoo over there. Yeah, I think named after maybe Yazoo, Mississippi It's mostly like a classic blues label blues and reissue and yeah, they if you haven't seen it, it's mind boggling. And it's all pre-war recordings of Kentucky music. And the liner notes imply, and the music on the compact discs bears it out, that Kentucky at the time was, in the early part of the 20th century, one of the greatest and most fertile musical zones in the early part of the 20th century one of the greatest and most fertile musical zones in the in the country. And I guess that was essentially you know destroyed by the practices of the coal industry in just

destroying community in general. I'm guessing, does that sound right? That sounds right and also, you know, sounds like my whole digital broad form deed thing is coming back. True. That what? My whole digital broad form deed thesis is coming back. This thesis is coming back, yeah.

Which is what? That like, you know, the mining our data in the census. It's been going on a long time well, not well Probably but mining the data in and that the deleterious effects. Oh, I see. I don't write right. Yes. Yes. Yes There's social middle. I'm being a little facetious, but kind of yeah, it's probably also Tobacco farming and all the other extractive industries that Kentucky's got as well, right? I don't know that yeah I mean, that's a good question. I guess it depends on yeah, what did to when did I? Imagine tobacco farming was probably already in

full Bloom by the early 20th century. Is that not the case? It was as far as I understand it the tobacco industry literally just took over what was once the hemp industry. Like all the infrastructure, all of the land, all the farming practices, it was almost like a direct one-to-one transition. They stopped farming hemp and just started farming tobacco.

Tobacco was devastating to its customer base. Correct. But was it as devastating in the way that the coal industry was to the actual communities and physical locations in which the practice was carried on? Probably not as. That's what I would think. Yeah. Because with coalmite it's more laborintensive It's also more environmentally more environmentally destructive The tobacco and the coal industry didn't give us Harry Dane Stanton, but the tobacco industry

Something that's interesting about Kentucky is how many of its industries are Predicated or premised on sort of alienation or vice in some fashion like right coal Tobacco urban it's that you know horse racing also Yeah, it's awful. Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like man. It's like I love horse racing, but I know it's like Yeah, it's just like you know you got like eight horses. They're euthanizing at the Derby. I'm just like Yeah, you know it's hard to like and when Churchill downs You know each year has you know another facelift that gets it closer and closer to resembling the Death Star It just becomes the thing yeah, I'll have these little four foot three jockeys wearing stormtrooper outfits.

No. Oh my God. Have you ever heard of a clever Hans? You ever heard of this, Will? No. Is it a horse? Is it a jockey? That's a good horse name.

It was a horse. It was a horse in England in the early 1900s that its owner claimed it could do math. So it would hold up like six and five and the horse would scratch out 11 marks on. The telepathy tapes of its day. Pretty much. So they tried to reproduce this

and they found out that the horse wasn't doing math literally. It was taking cues from whoever was, I guess, holding up whatever number. Yeah. And it was reproducing something that looked like a basic edition. This sounds like what's going on with the tariffs. It's funny you mentioned that.

We had a horse in the lighthouse that's figuring out the tariff. He actually doesn't know math. He knows how to talk numbers in such a way that he fools people for 24 to 36 hours enough that they freak out and stop paying attention to the fact that he doesn't know math. It's similar. Well, they use the term clever hands now in AI modeling because AI can also give the appearance of, you know,

sentient intelligence, but it's really kind of doing something a little more mechanical or it's a picking up on different cues in a different way yeah of course so it doesn't mean of course it doesn't yeah it doesn't make AI doesn't make any people would call it intelligence for example right or or you know Or say that it could reproduce human, because our ability to use language is, it's sort of just like the outer symptoms of our existential need and our bodily functions. Right. And AI doesn't have bodily functions or existential need. That's neither of us.

Yeah. So can, yeah. We're better for the body. I wish, like, when you call Target or whoever you call, and they don't have real people answering the phone anymore, and they're saying, may I help? You know, I wish they would just dispense with the pretense that I'm talking to a human being.

I don't need you to pretend. I would much rather you speak like a 1980s video game. Would you tell me what you are looking for? Or what do you want? Just like that, what do you want? Like that's so much faster than hi, I'm here to help you. That's true. Please tell me, just like, please stop, please stop.

It's more uncanny that way. You're right, it would be better if it was more robotic and pixelated. I don't mind talking to a computer if it pretends it's a computer and not pretending it's a human being right? Yeah, well, I think the beautiful thing about clever huns is that horses are just really good at picking up on cues in general Yeah, like they're very perceptive of humans like the way we act the way we like talk and Kind of co-evolved with them in a way. Yeah, that's to me is that's why horse racing's messed up, man. It's like...

Have you all ever heard of Kentucky donkeys? Donkeys, huh? I was on a road trip with a friend 20 years ago. We were in Chihuahua, Mexico. Okay. I went to a tiny little cafe and there were these pictures on the wall of long legged donkeys and they were labeled Kentucky donkeys. And I said to the proprietors of the cafe, I said, well, I'm from Kentucky, what's up

with these Kentucky donkeys? And he said, we have a bunch of them here in Chihuahua and they were gifts maybe in the 20s or something from someone from Kentucky and there are these long legged donkeys called Kentucky donkeys that the people of Chihuahua are aware of as a species of donkey but I've never run into a long-legged donkey here in Kentucky necessarily. I have not either. This is another this is a little known fact I was raised by a man from Chihuahua Mexico and I never knew that was correct. Is he still around? No, no, no, no, no, so I don't know if I can't ask

I couldn't dial it up and you know, so you know, but you know anyone in Chihuahua? Have you been to Chihuahua? I've not been to Chihuahua. No Yeah, I'm picturing like those things on Star Wars that walked in the snow that had the really long legs. At ats. Yeah Is that what they look like? They just look like a donkey with strangely long legs. I'm sure you could go to an AI graphic generator and just say, give me a donkey with long legs, and that would be a Kentucky donkey. True. Or you could go to Chihuahua. Say, now make him smoke a cigar.

Now give him Britney Spears eyes. I'm an artist. That'd be beautiful. Have you seen the Studio Ghibli things going around that everybody sharing no, what is it? It's like you just plug an image into like some chat GPT s outfit and it like pops it out in the style of like a you know, my friend Totoro or no, whatever kind of thing and The guy that did all that said it's an affront to life itself. Yeah, me as well. A paraphrasing. Yeah, it was me.

Oh, right. It was a strong rebuke. Oh, yes, yes. I think I did see the meme of him saying whatever it was he said. It was a withering summary comment, which I thought was beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, how does he get to say that kind of thing?

I'm like, I want to say that all the time. Give me an answer. I had a, I don't know what you call the modern day version of a pen pal. If we're sitting at computer keyboards and we ride each other and we've never met each other, what is that? It's not a pen pal because we don't have a pen. You don't say keyboard comrade? Keyboard comrade. I had a keyboard comrade who reached out and asked if I'd ever seen a particular movie and he volunteered to send me a CDR Which he did of the only live-action

studio Ghibli movie, which is a beautiful fun gentle documentary about The ancient canal system of a small particular small city in Japan Yeah, and it's it's about 80 minute documentary about just about this canal system in the small city in Japan. And it's about 80 minute documentary about just about this canal system in this small city. It's pretty wonderful. Interesting. I didn't know that they had any live action.

That's the only one. Yeah. That's pretty awesome. And I thought, I couldn't wait because I thought it would be something fun to watch with my daughter who's six, but I think it's a little boring for her. Yeah, she's like, yeah, this is not nice.

There are no human characters You're just looking at these tiny little non navigable canals essentially for almost an hour and a half They don't have tasty looking food. No, no, and they just run behind people's houses now It's fascinating the technology that but if you're not an engineer or an engineer in the making it's it's Probably a hard sell. Yeah, I just like looking at canals. I do too. In general.

Yeah, yeah. And I haven't tried it on her. Maybe we'll, we have to go in the attic to watch DVDs anyway. So that's another reason why I haven't tried it. I like the concept of a canal. I like that humans were like, I want a lot of water over there.

So let's just dig a big trench Yeah, and let's just divert some water one thing that occurred You know, I've been asked for years and years and years 30 plus years now in when I'm doing promo for a record people say Well, what's about Louisville? What's Louisville music and blah blah blah tell me about Louisville and and it wasn't till Last week driving between here in Portland I was thinking about part of the Louisville mindset potentially having to do with, of course, because we wouldn't exist without the Falls of the Ohio and the subsequent canal lock system that was built to get around that.

But that, what does it do to a psyche? The entire foundation, the existence of the city is built on the idea that things are in motion, need to stop in order to and sort of reconnoiter and reconvene and in order to move on. So that's what Louisville is. And I'm not sure how many other major cities or, you know, whatever Louisville is now, medium sized city, United States are founded on such an identity of not, you know, every, every other river city boats could, they just stopped there and then moved on and nothing changed. But here you had to transform or port or traverse. You have to do a portage. Now you have to go through the lock system. And if there was

If we're looking at potentially massive infrastructure failure Maybe the portage business will be one to invest in once again because maybe our lock system will fail and people will have to stop And unload their cargo Be a boring job. It's all coal. I think now like that's the only cargo that really goes up and down the river That's true. I don't really know what it goes up and down the Ohio anymore. The barges are full of coal I'm not sure I see much else other than pleasure pleasure craft That's a good point because even like um

Memphis I'm trying to think of other cities on rivers like the boats didn't have to stop. They didn't have to stop right? They just you could just keep going here. They had to stop Yeah, yeah, I think for that reason Lexington was settled first Before Louisville, so they just picked a random spot in the middle of Kentucky you talk about town could use a river Or at least a pollute Big glad be glad that you don't have an open sore. This weekend will probably ride.

I saw the mayor today overseeing the reinstallation of floodgates into the downtown flood walls in anticipation of, I think it was a 20 year high a month ago and it's supposed to go higher than that. Or that's what they're saying. It's supposed to go higher than that. that's what they're saying higher than that but Do you know who Simon Kitten was you seen that name around Louisville? No kitten like kitten like Katie into you in Oh Kinton. Yeah, he was one of the first quote unquote pioneers with Daniel Boone ah

he You know was one of the first to come over the Appalachian Mountains into Kentucky and like the colonial authorities had an agreement with Deshaunee that they would never settle Kentucky. And then Boone and Simon Kitten and others started settling Kentucky and it was really freaked Deshaunee out. They were like, we thought we had a deal. Yeah. But Simon Kenton was kind of a huge figure in Shawnee mythology because they called him Bodler. Called him what?

Bodler. It's B-A-H-D-L-E-R. I don't know what it meant. It was some sort of like, they thought he almost had a kind of like mythological- Is that an honorific? Kind of, yeah. Is that an honorific? Yeah, and can I be called that? Like compared to like Daniel Boone. Mommy he called me a bodler Well like the Shawnee kidnapped him at one point and made him run the gauntlet You know under the assumption that he had betrayed them kind of well sort of yet Well, you're right like he was settling Kentucky and so they were at war with him

Yeah, he had made a deal that he was potentially reneging on as a pretty much Right and so they had kidnapped him at some point and made him run the gauntlet But every time they would get ready to execute him something would happen like some sort of weather event would intervene or something And so the Shawnee started to think that he was under God they called him Monetto That was the god of the Shawnee they thought he was under Monetto's prediction and so Eventually, they let him go they let him go back to Kentucky because they thought he was like this Eventually they let him go. They let him go back to Kentucky because they thought he was like this,

like I said, this sort of protected, but if you look around Louisville, his name is all over all kinds of stuff because he wound up becoming a huge landowner in Kentucky. And in Indiana too. I think he wound up getting swindled out of a lot of land by William Henry Harrison. He had the short-lived presidency.

Yeah, Tippa Canoe and Tyler too, yeah, who was president for like three weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Died in the mine. Right, right, right. I went to Tecumseh's grave near Xenia one time, which I think is famous. Isn't that where Gummo, Harmony's Gummo takes place in Xenia? It's where it's meant to take place, yes. I think it was shot all in Nashville, but it was meant to take place in Xenia.

Right, because that was like the headquarters of alien workshop Skateboards, which I guess is why he picked Zina. I think it was also He was referencing that it had been leveled maybe 51 years ago like maybe today when there was a series of tornadoes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I think that was what fascinated him was that it was just completely destroyed right and and that happens like Periodically to Zina to near to comes his grave sack as enias is like a Shawnee worming like demon win Yeah, and one of my favorite things is when I was driving and win yeah something like like the victory of a demon Like after Skyline. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. My favorite thing is when I was driving through Zinnia one time, because I used to date a girl from Yellow Springs, and there was this grocery store called Grocery Land, right? But a tornado had come through and like knocked the D off the sign, and instead of paying to put the D back up, they just rebranded it as grocery lamb. So, good. Anyway, that's RIP to cumsa.

RIP to cumsa, yeah. Well, before we let you go and get out of your hair here, we gotta ask, how's Jihad Oldham? How's what? How's Jihad Oldham? She's around here somewhere. Yeah, she's doing, she's, her breed, Kentucky pocket wolf, is susceptible to their patella is getting knocked out of place.

And so she's had some patella. What's a patella? Patella is your kneecap. Okay. And their kneecaps, she had it once six years ago maybe and the vet just basically pushed it back into place. Yeah. But she'll, if she sleeps in a unfamiliar, like not in her bed, she'll get up and she won't be able to use one of her back legs for 20 minutes or so. Damn. Which is of some concern, but otherwise she's lively. We went for a bike ride last night. Yeah, cuz she loves to get in the backpack and ride around

She's doing great. I mean it yeah, she's 11 now and Other than the patella is I think I can see plenty of years But it's it's amazing. You know like if you ever hurt yourself, right? Really hurt your back, hurt your knee, hurt your ankle, how the world changes, right? Until you're healed. It can be really, it changes everything. And for poor little Gigi Jihad, yeah, it's, you know, just think like, oh, she cannot chase a squirrel. You know, can you imagine being a dog

and not being able to chase a squirrel? It's a huge bummer. Yeah. It's a huge bummer. I'm slowly realizing the heavy hand of time comes forever, man, and then I'm having to look at knee braces for my Monday night pickup basketball game, which is a bit of a sobering thing.

Yeah. Yeah, anyway. I don't understand the stigma. I told my brother recently to start wearing a knee brace, and he acted like, I will never do that. I was like, what? I think it's an aesthetics thing. I think they look good.

I do too. I think it looks like a bionicle. It makes you look like kinda, yeah. Especially because I like the ones with the hole in it because you just, you know, I like little displays of functional human engineering victories and you look at that and you think, it's not just a sock around there,

it's kind of makes sense, it's trying to work with your anatomy. Yeah. It's breathable. Yeah, my knee could be so short-sided. I have to wear a knee brace to my right knee sometimes. Yeah. It looks, you're right, I like a little,

poke your little knee, your patella through. Yeah. Yeah. It's got the little things on the side, it makes you look kind of like a robot. I like how you know the finer points of Simon Kenton's life but you, Patello, is like you're just finding out about that today. Little Kentucky history question. So a number of years ago, my wife who's a embroidery artist, makes quilts and things like that, she was trying to make a quilt full of

notable Kentuckians and she really wanted to incorporate, if possible, a notable Kentuckian who was indigenous or, you know, here before white people at least. And we, she spent hours and hours in the public library system down at the Philson Historical Society. They were incredibly helpful, but they couldn't even offer the name of an individual, yeah, who was a known Kentucky. And there were some who were members of tribes who were based, say, on the north side of the Ohio River and frequented Kentucky, but not necessarily that were born or, you know, dominantly active here. Right. Well, so, Kentucky was basically savanna.

It was used by the indigenous as basically the hunting ground. Yes. And the Cherokee and the Shawnee administered it. Ah. And they had a very tense relationship at times. But like the Cherokee basically administered it from the south and the Shawnee from above, north of Ohio. And so that was why it was so distressing

that people were settling it, because it was basically sacred. It was like no one was supposed to live here. The entire ecosystem was basically carefully engineered so that no one would live here. So it would be perfect land for buffalo, for you know stuff like that. And so there may have been settlement, you know, there may have been indigenous settlement here like 2,000 years ago.

I think there is proof of that in the Red River Gorge and stuff. But when Europeans arrived, that was basically the situation. And so that's what made Tecumseh realize the white man is not gonna stop until he reaches the other end of the continent because if he breaks this specific Pact that means like he's got no he holds nothing sacred right Kentucky was a kind of sacred thing like people were Besides what I'm saying like it really freaked out the the Shawnee and so if if you're looking for any you could Feasibly say to comes it was

Kentucky in I mean he spent a lot of time here. Yeah, it's a Viceroy him and his father did yeah Yeah, so I don't know. I mean yeah, I mean I would claim to comes as Kentucky and personally okay Even though that Shawnee technically lived in Ohio. Yeah, yeah exactly Yeah, he they knew Kentucky like the back of his hand next question What do we do with the karmic legacy that you've just laid down right here? I've wondered that myself sometimes too. Yeah because if you're talking about like a future where we obviously in capitalism or and hopefully return the land to the original

inhabitants, you have to try to in some way mirror how the land was used you know 500-600 years ago. Yeah. So I don't know I mean I think there's probably ways to still like have people living here but I think maybe the first step is just What getting rid of some of the everybody getting the cursory understanding of animal husbandry would be a good start Maybe that'd be good

Ending the profit motive that might be a good way to start Returning it to its sacred sacred status, in my opinion. Yeah, not extracting so much out of it, and returning very little in return. And then, yeah, how do you infuse people of any age with a sense of joyful responsibility? Over the environment, or their fellow man? In general, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great question. I think you have to like

Cultivate communities where that's a value. It's not an American value right now, right? It isn't no so you'd have to basically and the only way you do that is through a kind of social practice like Stewardship over the land or unions But the way to do it would be to somehow demonstrate, say to an American state of mind right now, that it is ultimately pleasing, satisfactory. That is what victory truly looks like. But how do you do that then? It should be easy, because it should be, except people are too distracted. I don't know. I don't understand. No, I think you're right. They're very distracted

Scared I think it's a lot. I think a lot of it is fear Yeah, a lot of people are sort of scared to upturn the apple cart or whatever the saying is. Yeah But I don't know I think it really yeah it comes down to some sort of revolution in how we relate to one another. Basically, like we were saying, the values people have with one another. And I think that basically comes down to social practice. Like, how do we engage with work? What are the institutions that we've built? Like I said, unions or tenant tenant unions that kind of stuff like In my opinion we've talked a lot about on this on the show like tenant unions are an interesting way to kind of

Try to take back land in a way Because That's kind of like what it's all about At a certain point like the people need any land people need, they need land. Yeah. They need land of their own. Not individually, you don't need individual parcels of land, communally. Communities need, you know, they need their own land, essentially. I think that's, it's some sort of, the answer is located in some sort of relationship between

work, the land, and how we relate to one another, right? Yep. I don't know if any of us has the answer for that because we're... It's totally upside down right now because right everything that we're sold is like, stay at home, we'll bring your food to you. Stay at home, we'll bring your whatever it is to you.

Yeah, you're on the phone all the time. Constantly trying to outsource. Overworked, yeah. It's all the time. Constantly trying to outsource. It's just this incompatibility of trying to outsource community, which means you reach out and can physically touch somebody and some things. And you just can't do that on the internet. That's why I've never understood their whole,

I'm going to live forever by uploading my consciousness. It's like you're eliminating the whole physical component of that that connects the- That sounds like hell. That sounds awful. It doesn't sound like any, I mean it doesn't. Yeah. There's nothing, it's nothing.

It's like what, that's gonna make me miss my mom or something, I don't know. Like what, that's so weird, I don't know. And it's strange to have really, really, really smart people, big thinkers think along those lines. And that's as far as they can go How far can we go? Yeah? Yeah? Fuck you you fucking fuck That's

the pinnacle of our Communal ability to create an insult and it has been for decades now Yeah, so we are maybe we've maxed out human potential like until someone can come up with something better to like demean somebody Then fuck you you fucking fuck. That's true We're doomed we hit the glass ceiling in terms of demean insults Well, we should note that we have trump to impart in part not Probably but in part so that like, you know, a lot of disaffected people can say slurs again, you know what I mean?

So. And potentially elevate their slurs. Right? Yeah, which. Yeah, I've not seen much innovation in that. That's what I wanna see. I wanna see innovation. Innovation in, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or otherwise get the fuck out, like, you know, put up or shut up, right? Like if you wanna say slurs, at least let's do some innovation here Yeah Move the conversation forward move the conversation for us. Yeah True great great point. Maybe a good place to end on to rest in peace Michael Hurley RIP Michael Hurley Yeah, we didn't know yeah, yeah, you're hearing that yeah, damn

That really hurts man Wow RIP Michael Hurley. Yeah, you're hearing that. Yeah. Damn. That really hurts, man. Wow, RIP Michael Hurley. Yeah. That's awful. Well, um... Deadwood, he's got the... That was a beautiful moment. Yeah. Yeah.

Damn. Well, you get to see me live, hear me live learning about the death of Michael Hurley. Yeah. He had a great career though and he was, he made it, I mean he was probably in his upper 80s. He was in 80, he was 83. He performed, I believe over the weekend in Knoxville and then in Asheville and then flew home and yeah.

Damn. And then passed, yeah. Well. And has a new record I think coming out in June maybe. Pouring out for the big dog Well, uh So yeah go I'm a little shocked about that. That's crazy. Yeah, it's pretty shocking. Yeah

That's where you you all when you came up. That's where you how you found me. Yeah, still thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy well, um Well, thanks for listening to us Please go check out Will's new album. Yeah, yeah, and well, thanks man. Thanks for you know coming back. Yeah Yeah, yeah I'll tell you to end on a nicer note Last night, I have never really met these neighbors, but you know To you listeners out there. we're sitting on the porch,

and the porch descends into a little valley that is a metro park, and then it goes up, and there's houses on the other side, and sound travels really well. And last night, we're all under the impression that we're in for three or four days of intense, devastating weather

with winds and tornadoes and things like that, rain, flooding. And they start blasting music. The first song they play, it sounds so good. It was Al Green singing Christoffersons for the Good Times. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they kept playing like Dusty Grooves, Deep Cut, R&B from the last 50 years for hours.

It was so nice. But it also reminded me of once I was in New York City on the upper east side at a pharmacy and there was an older black lady cashier and she was singing that song and You know trying to make a connection I said I was like No, you know little a little Al Green and she said that's not Al Green that's Ray Price Like I was like, alright, noted. You're right, you're right.

I've always liked that with country songs, because it's sometimes hard to know who cut it first. Damn. Well, move the conversation forward, and it's not Al Green, it's Ray Price. Exactly. Yeah, hearting thoughts. Yeah, it's a cum, sir I'm gonna tell her I got a show in September. I'll say start start working to come so yeah, he might as well. Yeah Well, well, thanks again, yeah, thank you. Oh, yeah, this is awesome, man. Thanks so much time. Yeah Yeah, I'm coming into Lexington in a couple weeks. Are y'all coming or you want to go away? There's playing a show there.

You're playing a show. You want to plug it? Where are you playing? The... I knew it an hour ago. Green Lantern? What? No, no, it's part of the university show. Oh. So where would it be? Singleton.

Singleton. That's right there. Yeah. It's like Tuesday, the middle Tuesday of April. Whatever that is. Yeah, I'll be there. 13th or 14th or something like that. Hell yeah.

Nice. I'll be there and you should too too you shall put the info in the show notes. Hey all right all right. Thanks again. Thank you So So Thanks for watching!