Trillbilly Worker's Party - Too Much Goodness Is A Sin Today (w/ special guest Jason Woodbury)

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

For this special bonus episode we're joined by Jason Woodbury from Aquarian Drunkard's Transmissions podcast, to talk about everything from Christian music, to the Michael Tait allegations, to the mystic/freak-folk scene of the mid-2000s, to the crossovers between Ufology and Christianity Please go check out Jason's podcast on iTunes or Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1ErL7gvZD6v3HJ4Nx5oexm And support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/trillbillyworkersparty

Jason Terrence dropped something on me about four days ago that I had never thought about before. It's that if you play DC Talks Jesus Freak Backwards it smells like Teen Spirit. Yeah. You know, I think that one of my earliest memories of live music was seeing like a church, like a church camp band play, a version of Smells Like Teen Spirit that I think was like modified to be Smells Like

the Holy Spirit or something like that. And then I think they went into Jesus Freak right after that, which was at the time, just one of the top songs going, you know. Did you guys see that things have gone pretty south in the DC Talk camp? Yes. As of late, Michael Tate, allegations.

Allegations. We were gonna discuss that. I was trying to think of a tasteful way to bring that up without, you know. I mean, I gotta say, like, all, like for any gay Christian rock person or Christian artist period, you know, solidarity. But you still gotta be cool.

It doesn't seem like that was the case there. I mean, and it's like DC Talk was such a, is it K-Max? Was that one of them? Yeah, Kevin Max. Hell yeah. Kevin Max is weird and seems pretty far out and cool in my opinion. I don't know, do you follow?

You ever check in on his social media? He does a lot of esoteric-y vibes these days. Can I tell you something, Jason? He follows us on Twitter and that's one of the things I'm most proud about I think he's I think he's really he seems legit and I really I dig He had there's like I remember at one point at the height of being a Starfire fan He did a he and Jason Martin have like a collaboration. I haven't revisited it in a very long time Really? So I don't remember what it sounds like exactly. I mean, I think like maybe it was a situation where like Martin played a little guitar on a K-Mack song.

And that's what, that's all it is, you know. But I haven't revisited it in a very long time. I'll have to do so now. Man, that'd be great. I've never heard that. I know he had a collaboration with Adrian Ballou, which is kind of a little bit of a curve ball Also a son of the bluegrass state

Ballou is? Or a kingax? Yeah, that's cool Yeah, I like that. I knew that he had worked with him too, which I mean obviously showcases a cool like art rock bend which I appreciate on a major level Adrian Ballou's super cool. It's kind of the way like David Sylvain and Fripp have some of those albums together. So I think K-Max is doing like vocals and Ballou's doing cool.

I mean Ballou's awesome. Like I love that era of King Crimson that he was. Oh yeah. Yeah. K-Max had a very, my opinion unique voice. You don't really hear Like not even especially not now but even back for the 90s, it's a pretty unique voice the the Like you know, he's a very interesting guy. Like we talked about him a lot on the show

But like there is you know, the book series 33 and a third Like, he's a very interesting guy. Like, we talked about him a lot on the show. But like, there is, you know the book series 33 1 3rd? Yeah. Where they go into an album. Single album, like one volume on a single album, yeah. Yeah. Are those cool? I always see those, but just never knew. Great, many of them are very cool in my opinion.

Yeah. I agree, they did one on Jesus Freak. And it's pretty fascinating Especially with what's come out about Michael Tate But a lot of it is About like it was written. It's written by two queer writers They're two queer academics, and they're just talking about how like

Before they came out like Jesus Freak was an album that they really connected to they felt like it's themes explored something that they were themselves trying to Articulate and discover about themselves at a young age and how it does kind of have some like queer undertones in a way and so I don't know it's just a You know and they talk about like that Michael Tate song which is one of the my opinion Maybe the best song on that album, but it's called between you and me It's like the only crossover hit from that album. It went like really Like it can be read as a secular song if you don't know who the band is and he's singing

That was the golden age of that with like jars of clay having one, you know at the same time that with like Jars of Clay having one, at the same time, and then it kind of working the other way around too, where like Collective Soul were like just considered a normal band, but, you kind of read into it, that you picked up on the Christian. We were just talking about that yesterday.

We literally just had the same thing yesterday. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, Jesus Freak, it's like you talk about the strangeness of K-Max's voice or the sort of undertones. You know, I mean, all of that stuff is obviously why it connected on a pretty major level for people.

I mean, in terms of just like, you know, the kind of Christian music that I still can like caught into or the stuff I still dig is stuff where there's like a little bit more of an artistic stance. I don't, I think, you know, Jesus Freak shows DC Talk having an artistic stance, you know, they really were doing a thing there that they were, it was like, you could get the recommended if you like, you know, elements in play and it was perfectly timed in that regard.

But at the same time, like, you know, they have their own, they have their own thing going on. So you can see why it crossed over to people and why it was such a huge deal and why that feeling of like persecution or whatever. I mean, that's like, unfortunately, it's just like, you can see all the really bad ways it plays out in a lot of, I think, of our current Christian culture in a certain way. But to be into any of that shit,

you know, Christian rock or whatever, was to always be wrestling with that, are they or aren't they saved kind of question, you know what I mean? You know, and I just, I remember, you know, like when Pager the Lion started dropping swears and it was like, is this allowed? Is this okay? Is this okay? Oh, I mean, gosh, they are,

Bazan is talking about heroin on that first EP, the whole EP, which was a big deal. And I mean, I think I remember there was like a vaguely sexual lyric on one of the early right you know and then he he would do the biblical uh you know I think I'm thinking of that song of of minor prophets and their prostitute wives or whatever you know just sort of like interjecting these like cd low down uh noir type things into I mean but just pulling it directly from the bible or whatever yeah but yeah, you know, you would always be like, you'd always wonder.

And then they were like, Creed was huge obviously, in the same era, or soon after. I guess that's the next incarnation of this phenomenon or whatever. But it's all moving towards a sort of, in the modern rock sphere at least it seems to me, like aligning with this sort of like wrestling aesthetic that is our culture in terms of like the right wing and stuff. I feel like everything, Christianity just got more and more like new metal

or whatever as time has gone on. So I don't know, it's so weird to think about Jesus Freak. So I don't know. It's so weird to think about Jesus Freak. You got some really interesting stuff from that period because they were trying to make music that had mass appeal. So on that first Jards of Clay album, it's such a fascinating mashup of ingredients. It's like coffee house, folk singer, songwriter, but they're sampling funky drummer in the back. The drums, the funky drummer in the back. It's like, who the fuck would ever have come up with that? That's something that would only have been made up

in a Christian music context. What is it? Isn't one of the guys? Yeah, I mean, Sinead O'Connor does that. I think she samples funky drummer too, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's like O'Connor does that. I think she samples Funky Drummer too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's like you hear it in her context is like, oh, proto-hip hop or whatever.

But like the Jarz of Clay guys, yeah, I mean, they were paying attention to what was going on around them. And I mean, you're right, there is such a strange, the 90s, you still look at it, if you look at it on a broader scale, like the 90s, so much weird stuff became huge, you know? So much weird stuff. Like, you know, you've got the Gregorian chant.

You're right. Craze or whatever, you know? Or, you know, sort of for a second there, like big beat, like everything from the UK that was like big beat was like huge, but I mean, anyway, I don't know. Yeah. You're right. DC Talk and like Jars of Clay, who else? I didn't even realize until reading the unfortunate news about Michael Tate that he had joined the Newsboys. That had completely slipped my radar.

He had supplanted Peter Furlores, the vocalist. Yeah. They're not, those guys are, I don't know the Newsboys really. I don't know their oeuvre all that much or their personnel. The one of the dudes, the kind of bald guy was, I think his sister is Sia. His cousin. Sia the pop singer that,

Or maybe his cousin. Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, his cousin. Yeah, that pop singer that, or maybe his cousin. Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, his cousin. Yeah, that was like on Kanye's Pablo album, which is kind of a weird connective tissue. I wish, Kanye's Pablo album is the, it's kind of the apex of what I was talking about, the are they or aren't they saved? Because on that album it is a very strange thing that he does.

And that I kind of think that that is like, we're far from being in a cultural place to rehabilitate Kanye, so I speak with caution here, but that dude has always walked the line of the most fucked up guy in the world and this saved version of the most fucked up guy in the world and this like saved version of the most fucked up guy in the world. And like, it is fascinating to me that on that record,

I mean, I think the writing is really good on Life of Pablo and it feels like very, I have like a bootleg vinyl copy of that record. And I mean, like, I know he's like thoroughly like deranged at this point and he was probably deranged then if I remember watching that Netflix doc and I think he starts like raving about Hitler and that thing and that was like obviously recorded 20 years ago so no no Kanye apologist here but I do think

Life of Pablo is a really weird record. And his engagement with Christian pop culture, especially now, you see it, it's like there's no, none of those like old hangups that people used to have seem to really be in play anymore. You know what I mean? Like that's just gone along with most everything else, you know. Yeah, ever since Jim Baker Jr. Started having church at bars, you know That's when the walls came down man. I did I do remember being really electrified by that moment Culturally, I had not escaped the gravitational pull of the church at that point

And so I thought you know, there was some I mean I also liked that like Tammy Faye It was really cool about her queer following, you know? And that she really showed a lot of love and grace. I mean, I honestly found myself pretty moved by that whole scene. I remember that. I remember Jay, did he have a TV show or something at some point?

Maybe I'm just imagining that. That sounds right. That sounds right. Yeah, that's, what was the Tammyant Mifé movie that came out? I think it was, was it Chesska Chess Day that was playing or maybe? I never saw that actually. Can't remember.

Yeah, I think you're right though. Yeah, I remember reading her biography as a young man in the church and her, yeah, like you say, being really cool about like her status as sort of a queer icon and at the same time like once claiming to have resurrected a dead chicken, which I thought was a The other interesting takeaway from that That's pretty uh

That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's some kind of old-school weird weird religion, you know Chicken resurrections and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, it's getting a little esotericism You know the marriage of the sacred and the profane, you know, exactly exactly exactly the transgression Becomes like a something like a magical charge in those moments. Yeah. No I've got a Essay in me that I've pitched and I tried to pitch it to pitchfork actually for their Sunday albums series, but like I think that honestly the

Sort of premier example of what you're talking about Jason is switch foots album The beautiful letdown remember thatdown. Remember that one? Yeah. That one, it was massive. I think it may be, to this day, it might be the best-selling Christian album. I mean, I don't know. It was a massively popular album

that kind of was the final word of all Christian crossover attempts. There really didn't come anyone out it was 2004 2003 or four and like no one really tried that after it like you had like under oath and some of those like Hardcore bands that tried it like emo bands, but like in terms of like pop music like it that was pretty much the last one Yeah Is that we were meant to live for so much more? Yeah, that's the one Yeah, and it's an interesting album like there's a lot of stuff from it. That's like

It's kind of like vaguely anti-bush. It's like vaguely anti-war. It's like if you listen to it a certain way it's like kind of yeah, it's kind of like vaguely Christian lib from that era, but. I think that the two things, one, that riff in We Were Meant to Live for So Much More is a pretty killer riff. Like that's obviously like, it really got. That's a good riff. So, you know, a good riff goes a long way in, you know,

crossing over, but I do think that the songwriter's name escapes me right now. I would have known it, you know, at some other point in my life. John something. I don't remember his last name. Yeah. Yeah. I think he has leaned even more into that, like, kind of Christian lib thing. And, and I think, to his credit has been pretty critical of the US government's foreign policy and stuff like that. So I think he kinda walks the walk to some degree. I always kinda like that. He's like sparred with the skillet guy.

He did spar with the skillet guy. And they actually were the only crossover group that came to mind. But to me it feels like they're famous in this parallel universe that I don't understand. Where Skillet is kind of a mainstream thing. I think my little brother, I have a much younger little brother,

and he said something like, "'Yeah, you ever heard Skillet?' And I was like, "'I remember maybe they were signed "'to that Tooth and Nails heavy nails heavy subsidiary am I imagining that you're right I saw them I always got them in Zed remember Zed you mean Zayo? Zayo, Zayo, Zayo, Zayo yeah I always got those two mixed up yeah I mean I think Zayo is like a much cooler thing stylistically maybe than Skill It,

which is like, I don't know what they sounded like then. I'm not 100% sure what they sound like now. I think it's like Trapped, it's like new metal-ish. Yeah, dude. You know, Muse, Muse but like meaner or whatever, you know, that sort of thing. And it's got a real vaguely just, yeah, that. Trapped. Trapped, it's got a real vaguely just, yeah, that trapped.

Trapped, it's a new genre, like the trapped guy, you know, the sort of the conservative new metal, who's, you know. Yeah, the Ronnie Radke guy, who's the mega hardcore guy, isn't his name Ronnie Radke? Is he a, is that, is he a, I knew of him as like the front person for, you know, one of those bands, but falling in reverse, or something like that.

I kinda knew him in that context, and then I think he went to jail or something. And then I knew that he had emerged as sort of like an anti-cancel culture guy, but I think him going full on MAGA, just like I just quit quit thinking about him before that part happened or whatever I don't know but I think he's yeah he's like I'm sure like that's such a funny genre of dude but I Zayel I

worked I worked at a record store and we did an in-store with them in like the late 2000s, I wanna say like 2007, 2008, something like that. They were really cool dudes. Sometimes those Christian hardcore guys were not cool, but those guys were really legit. But sometimes the Christian hardcore dudes were like the worst to hang out with for sure. Wait, okay, so it's you bringing that up like part of what was interesting about the Michael Tate

story was I mean obviously there's the allegations which are you know really bad and He was definitely engaging in like predatory behavior non-concentral stuff like he Yeah, like but then like, what is kind of shocking to me about it was the culture on the Newsboys tour bus of just getting completely fucking hammered every night. Like... Man, if I'd known those guys were doing it the whole time, I'd have followed suit, you know?

I wasted a lot of good partying years thinking that like, man, man, Michael Tate would be, he'd be ashamed of me. He'd be ashamed of me right now, yeah. He was doing blow. He was doing heart, he was doing blow, he was getting shit-faced drunk. I kind of feel like that's one of the things that Righteous Gemstones

kinda got right about this whole thing. 100%. Right? Was like, there's just this like, it's like that stuff was always present, you know? It was always part of it, but there did used to be a veneer of like, you don't see it. It's like out of sight, out of mind, you know?

And like there was these sort of unspoken conduct things, you know, that you just tried to, you heard, oh yeah, so and so made out with the bassist of that band on Tooth and Nail or whatever. And it was like funny things like that. But it was, you know, you still had to kind of pretend, right, and now, I mean, I guess the newsboys still had to. But I think for a lot of artists,

it's just like, even Christian ones, you know, it's like, yeah, Donald Trump's the president, so. Like, and that's our guy. So like, it doesn't matter. We can get totally shit-faced. And I felt like Jim Stone's got that right. But yeah, that is crazy to imagine the newsboys thing. I think, I won't name him, but I do,

somebody once told me about that band, like they had people moving their gear for them, and like the evangelical band that this guy who told me this was in, was like, we move our own gear. You know, like those guys are sort of like sell-outs, basically, is how he talked about the Newsboys. And this guy who told me this was in was like, we move our own gear. Those guys are sort of like sellouts basically, is how he talked about the newsboys. So I've always thought about that.

Damn, Arena of Rockers. Are they all based in like, let's see that was another part. Australian, right? Well, they are Australian, but I'm pretty sure they're all based in Nashville. That's kind of the locus of this whole that's why I was gonna ask like when and why and how? Did Nashville become the center of the Christian music? I mean it's been like that since like the 80s or 90s. I assume

Well, I don't really know how that happened I don't know much about it, but that was so much of this was like I mean I caught wind of this Michael Tate story like months before it actually Dropped like because apparently it's been circulating around Nashville for many years now Yeah, it seems like it would be hard to hide it entirely right yeah I was talking to I was talking to Daniel Pujol one time who had the eponymous band Pujol when that Nashville Rock scene was like all taken off. They just had like them and like Diarrhea Planet and all those bands. And he said that they all kind of cut their teeth at this place called Rocket Town, which

was like a Christian sort of like, you could go there and like cut your own like record or there was like a lot of infrastructure for that kind of thing but the the pretense was that it was like you know through the church and You know and I think like that kind of tracks with like a lot of those like tooth-and-nail bands Look, are there aren't they like MXPX type stuff, you know So it makes sense that like maybe there's just this Christian scaffolding for you know So it makes sense that maybe there's just this Christian scaffolding for making music there that's just – you kind of have to go along and be at least friendly to the church

or whatever, whoever's running it. Yeah. I remember asking Jason Martin from Starfire about smoking smoking cigs at churches because they played church gigs but those dudes always smoked that was like that was sort of their calling card or whatever and and and my band played a gig played a gig with like one of Jason Martin's side projects a few years ago actually called Red Strat which is like a kind of like a cock rock thing that he's doing of Jason Martin side projects a few years ago actually, called Red Strat, which is kind of like a cock rock thing that he's doing with members of Fine China

and the prayer chain. And we opened for him and I talked with him for just a few minutes in the back. Because he's always, even in interviews, he's kind of almost like, he says one sentence and that's it, You know what I mean? Like when you ask him something. So I never really had like a good conversation with him,

but I went to the back and I was just like, hey man, just wanted to say thanks for having us on the show. And he was like smoking a cigarette and he's like, thanks for always writing cool crap about us, man. And it was like this coolest, it was like a really great moment, you know? And then later he actually did the podcast

and he was like really funny and really open and very like totally chill in a way that I did not expect, you know? So. I listened to that and you got him open, which was kind of interesting. It's like. Our editor Horton sat in

and he's like a long time confidant in that world. So he played an inter, what is it? Interlocutor, you know, like that sort of situation. Kind of helped broker it and make it work out. But he really did just sound like he was hanging with his boys for a little bit. And it was pretty refreshing. It was awesome.

I was really proud of that one. Yeah, yeah. You know, his thing is interesting because I remember like he kind of found an audience and sort of that downtown cool kid like supreme skateboard culture. Yeah, and it's like a surprising influence on a lot of younger like artists right now, like a lot of shoegaze kind of artists and stuff like that. And I think I would not be surprised if everybody in Deaf Heaven was like a Star Flyer fan. Certainly

guys like that Idris guy who Matt Sweeney I think is in on his new record maybe produced it but I mean like he that guy definitely seems like like he's a Star Flyer guy which I think it's's cool. I remember the system of the Down guitarist was a big Starfire fan. It was like an issue of Alt Press. Yeah, it was like a weird secret society. I mean, I guess you could if you liked that heavier stuff. Like I hear why that appeals more to like the metal dudes.

Like I actually ended up liking the indie pop stuff a lot more on a personal level, but you know. Yeah, no, but the asking him about smoking, I remember asking him like, you know, did you feel bad smoking? And he was like, yeah, like I always kind of felt bad about it. Like I didn't love smoking out front of, you know, churches,

but like also what are you gonna do? You know, it's like. It seems like nobody would bat an eye now, but things were like a little. No, I don't think so, but things definitely were so weird back then. I mean, you really did. Yeah, it was a strange self-policing kind of vibe.

And I'm sure just, but it's funny you talk about there being sort of this infrastructure that the church groups like that would set up. I mean, I think, is it Mark Driscoll? Is that his name? The kind of terrible preacher guy? Oh, the TV preacher dude, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he think, is it Mark Driscoll? Is that his name? The kind of terrible preacher guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, he was like in Seattle and totally, totally ensconced in that whole indie rock scene there, you know, and was like forming that. Oh yeah, I think Mars Hill was the church, you know? Oh, okay. So there was like a lot of indie rock crossover there too. And I mean, that whole thing of like,

not everybody thinks about it, but like Father John Misty is like kind of from that world, you know. There's a lot of like refugees from that world that are just, you know, regular famous people now. Yeah, yeah. What about Sefian Stevens? What's his deal? Is he like, I know he kind of comes out of that world, but did he kind of come out of like a, I mean, I don't want to call it like a cult necessarily, but wasn't his like a little more on the margins of mainstream Christianity what he kind of came out of, or have I got that kind of… Yeah, I think that he kind of, I think that maybe there was some sort of like Sufi influence early on,

like pretty like dedicated on maybe his biological father's side, but then like his mother married this guy, Lowell Cunningham, I think, who runs Sufjan's label. And that album, Carrie and Lowell is about his mom and that guy. And I think that guy kind of was, his is like, I always have associated it and I don't,

this is just my impression, it's sort of like East coasty, hippie leaning arts and crafts. Art is a kind of spiritual practice kind of Christianity is what I pick up from like that side of it. And so he was associated with the Danielson family early on, that's how I kinda got hip to him. I don't know if you guys know that band, the New Jersey kinda art punk rock.

They were also on Tooth and Nail I think. They were on Tooth and Nail and then later on started putting out their own records, but I think they were involved in Secretly Canadian too. Secretly Canadian put out a number of their records, really cool records. I had a, when I was in middle school or high school, record labels would put out DVDs of music videos

of their bands, and I had a tooth and nail sampler, and Danielson family was on it Me without you was on it. That was when they first got they first put out that first album Zio was probably on it. There's a bunch of bands like you know on there. Yeah Yeah, me without you is an interesting case and They're an interest... I want to go back to Sufjan for a second though because he... so he kind of emerges from the Danielson family scene a little bit and he's associated with those

guys playing banjo but then he starts putting out his own records and those get picked up pretty much immediately by the quote unquote secular, you know, indie rock establishment. I think Sufjan always had the plausible deniability of reading as potentially gay, you know, in a lot of ways. And later, you know, he came out and has been like really frank and forthright and I think thoughtful in like talking about you know sexuality and religion and how things intersect and and do and don't

for him you know he's always modeled I think a kind of really healthy approach to whatever it is you know his he doesn't worry about being devout in his songs but he can't stop singing about his preoccupations either, you know? And I think that he just, he seems like a really, like an interesting, like an interesting dude. I would love to get him on transmissions, but he's not, he doesn't do a ton of interviews. Craig Jenkins for The Vulture, for Vulture did a really good interview with him, where he talked about how gay the Bible is. I really enjoyed that. Damn. Yeah. Sounds good as hellulture did a really good interview with him where he talked about how gay the Bible is. I really enjoyed that.

Damn. Sounds good as hell. It's really good stuff. Jonathan and David's souls were knitted together. Yeah. Yeah. Classic arrangement you have with all your boys, you know? I mean, that's just dudes kind of being dudes and I think we need to kind of get back to

that sort of traditional masculinity and yeah, no, absolutely. But Me Without You, they're fascinating, right? Because that's a weird, that was a band that I have not revisited the work in like a pretty long time. At the time though. It holds up. I love it. It holds up, yeah. I mean, what I will say is at the time, those dudes, first off, the first time I see them, they're like all wearing suits and they're singing like really like kind of mean breakup songs, you know what I mean?

Like that first record. I feel like that's what the first record sort of like. It's like folk metal. Well, that's what follows though. Like at first they were just like a pretty straight post hardcore band, right? With that one record, Gentleman, or what I think is on it. Yes, that's the music video that I had on that sampler.

That's what it was on it? Okay, so they start off like that, but then they get so weird right away. The next record, the dude, Aaron Weiss I believe, is the front man's name, right? I would go see that band and he would be like outside like picking through the trash because he was freaking you know and that kind of vibe and he would talk and I

remember like wanting to talk with him about Ecclesiastes because there's like a young as a young Christian man you know seeking out the council of this poet you know outside of like a venue seeking out the counsel of this poet, you know, outside of like a venue, seeking out the council like reconcile like what do they mean? It's all meaningless. What is meaningless? What are we talking about? If it's not, if it doesn't mean something, what is it? And I just remember him being like, you just got to sit with that uncomfortable feeling, man. You just got to live in it. And I was like, oh man like such a so I remember them being and then funnily enough or in perfect you know line with what we're talking about Dan Smith from Danielson produced

one of their records after that so there was that you know that that they're they're an interesting group for sure there was a weird thing going on in the mid-2000s where everybody was like a mystic it was like it was so strange. It was like train-hopping culture intersected with folk revival which intersected with kind of Latent residual like a bunch of like church youth group dropouts like I I briefly was in this scene I lived in Austin in the late 2000s

Like I moved there in 2008 and now it was like Tony Soprano Like I felt like I was getting in at the very end of something rather than rather than being in on the ground floor I was coming in at the very end of something Yeah, there's this artist I don't know if you ever heard of him called Peter and the wolf like it was he was named after the That book or whatever that was Peter. It certainly rings a bell certainly rings a bell It was kind of like a DaVinci banhart type deal like there was a bunch of mystic type guys like that in Austin at the time I think that there was so that was like a little like the Christian rock world didn't probably you know, me without you were a little more exceptional in that regard right? You know

what I mean? Like most of the groups didn't come across that way. I think they would even use like you know certain like Arabic terms and stuff like that almost as like deliberate provocation against people who were like Inherently anti-islam without having even any idea what that what it is And so like I remember he would do stuff like that But it I mean on the broader pop culture spectrum or whatever Of course like the freak folk thing was like I mean that's actually what I There's a minute there where yet that mingles with the Christian Rock underground, cause it's mixing with everything underground.

I think about like Arthur Magazine, which was like a huge influence for me. It's free counter-cultural thing you could get in record stores and they would focus on like, Joanna Newsome might be on a cover and then it's like, Om, the drone metal duo, you know? Or like, Sun, being like a band that I thought was like fascinating on a religious level,

you know what I mean? Even though it's vaguely satanic or whatever, or pseudo satanic occult, whatever. But like, all that stuff was like, yeah, I loved, for a minute there that kind of even mingled with the Christian rock underground and you got kind of like slightly weirder stuff, like some of the stuff Sufjan's label was putting out,

Castanets, not that they were even explicitly religious, but there was just enough of an association there. Maybe even a little Page France. Do you guys remember that band, Anathallo? No. No. Page France. Page France became Cotton Jones, which is a really cool artist who does kind of dreamy,

like Yola tango style, you know, soul and folk rock type stuff. It's really good. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It's really good, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, this is a weird time. It was just like, well, that's the thing, like Me Without You was like, yeah, there was an element of it where it was also a

reaction against the sort of hegemonic conservatism of the Bush era. And so you're right, it was like the Me Without You thing, like kind of trying to make these references or provocations to yeah, to Christian America through like, yeah. Yeah, I mean that was one of the huge things for me with Pager the Lion, right?

Yes, yeah. That explicitly attracted me and I was in that moment shaping my political conscience or my political consciousness rather because this is like I'm in high school yeah and like 9-eleven happens my sophomore year and it's a it's a completely radicalizing you know event for me because I you know remember asking trusted adults you know why what had happened to happened you know and it was sort of like they hate I remember asking trusted adults why, what had happened to happened,

and it was sort of like, they hate our freedoms, and that was just such an unsatisfactory answer to me as a young, truth-seeking individual. And so within the year, I'm reading Naomi Klein's No Logo and AdBusters and like listening to Pedro the lion and you know, reading Howard Zinn and stuff like that. And so like, so Pedro was specifically like, I felt like, I mean, and not just like generally, but like very specifically talking about like the Iraq war and stuff.

And I think there's like a lyric in one of his songs where he uses the term camel fucker and it's like just very you know very direct in terms of like talking about the Iraq war which was just like as I said a radicalizing thing to witness as a young person because it was just such a and the echoes of it continue obviously in every way. But in that moment, like, yeah, Pedro was like a huge thing for me because it was deliberately provocative in those ways. And it opened up, and he covered Randy Newman and I'm listening to like God's song, you know? And just sort of sitting there as like a young believer being like, I guess if I believe in God, I have to also

somehow believe in not believing in God or, you know, trying to like talk myself through this thing, you know? But it was such a, yeah, I mean, yeah, I loved, and I think that it was important in that time because like you said, it was pretty like, it was pretty oppressive. Like everybody was, you know, proclaiming that, you know, that war or early on at least, you know proclaiming that you know that war or early on at least you know you think that's got that's kind of been in the fabric of like Christian music for like forever I mean you think about Larry Norman was like kind of an avowed left-wing guy you know Norman Greenbaum the Jesus Freaks like obviously it's like anti-vietnam War stuff going on with them. It's kind of

interesting to see how that shifted over many years, you know. Yeah, probably just propelled forward by the Reagan era, right? I mean, like in the way that so much pop culture was, you know, infused in that time. Yeah, Larry Norman is a fascinating case. Cause like you said, like he, I mean, he, as soon as there was a Christian rock industry to chafe against, he began chafing against it. And he kind of invented it, you know, in a lot of ways. Larry Norman is a really fascinating figure. And anybody who hasn't, I don't know,

have you guys checked out that book by Greg Thornberry? Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music? It's a bio. It's a bio about Larry Norman I've heard about it. I love You gotta get it right away. Greg is a great writer and it's a really really Fascinating and funny book and he like talks about insane shit like Larry Norman recording in the studio He talks about insane shit, like Larry Norman recording in the studio next to the studio, where Eno and Frip are recording no pussy footing. So they're making an ambient pioneering master

where he's in the next studio over. Or later in his life, Larry Norman ending up on a bowling league with the guitarist John Fahey. Like this is like insane shit that you're like, Greg how did you find this? It's incredible. It's like the Forrest Gump of like... Larry Norman is like really and he's like hanging out with obviously Frank Black from the Pixies has probably been like the most vocal Larry Norman fan like in the in the broader indie world, you know He's really really trumpeted Larry. But yeah, I find Larry Norman fascinating and I think you do find

I mean like probably a lot of those guys. What is it Keith Keith Green? You know, like you pick up on an anti-war vibe from those guys I mean like anti-war shouldn't I mean anti-war is still a very popular I mean, anti-war is still a very popular thing, right? Like it's just not a hard thing to wrap your head around and it makes sense that those guys came at it from that angle. But Larry Norman was something more specific, like criticizing the space program or whatever.

You know what I mean? Anyway, yeah, he's a fascinating dude. But yeah, obviously it got more and more conservative to the point where Kid Rock is probably the most popular Christian rocker or whatever, you know what I mean? Yeah, is it true, there's a story, possibly apocryphal, that Paul McCartney said of Larry Norman

that he'd be the most famous man in the world if not for the Jesus stuff. You know, I think that there, I think that is probably apocryphal because you can't source it, but it's one of those statements that definitely rings true on an ecstatic truth level where you're like, it is true on some level, you know?

It's kind of like what is the supposed quote where Lennon said, somebody asked him if Ringo is the best drummer in the world and he says not even the best drummer in The Beatles. And like that's, I don't think like you can really source it but it's like, yeah that sounds like, so that's probably true. So on some level.

The sentiment makes it true. The sentiment's very true. Maybe that's true with Larry Norman. I mean, his records, in my humble opinion, do start to get pretty weird and not compelling after a while. But those early ones really, really moved me, for sure. Yeah, I guess for those not familiar, Larry Norman was,

I Wish We'd All Been Ready is kind of his DC talk covered it on Jesus Freak. There you go, bringing it beautifully back around. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Larry Norman is really, he's been on my mind lately because he's got this song called UFO,

which I just love, which is like basically, an area that I'm really looking to go down and explore is the sort of overlap between UFOlogy and Christianity, specifically as expressed through music, you know what I mean? I think it's a very fascinating thing. Judy Sill falls into this camp a little too, you know? She's like, she's more broadly mystical than Larry Norman,

but obviously the Christian underpinnings are like, firmly there with Judy. But in both of their cases, they're interested in UFO type stuff, or like, perhaps even the idea that Jesus, you know, came by a UFO or something like that. And then it turns out that's like legit, like esoteric readings of a lot of old sources show that like, that's kind of an idea that's been around for almost as long as Christianity, you know? Like that the star of, the star that the three wise men were following

was actually the Christ itself, you know? Yeah. Yeah, and so it's like fascinating to realize like, oh shit, like this whole like Jesus is from outer space thing, like they didn't even have the same concept of outer spaces as us then, you know? But nonetheless, it like kind of corresponds pretty directly.

And so that's a kind of crazy thing. But Larry, Larry did, I don't know, I think he probably just was saying UFOs cause he was like there's everybody's talking about UFOs I'm gonna hijack this topic I don't know if he really had deep thoughts on UFOs but he does sort of have a Jesus Jesus with an alien vibe on that song which I love. It's funny my first awareness of you and what you do Jason was you and Ken Lane talking about Jim Sullivan on Desert Oracle one time, which again, with the UFO thing. Well, you know, not only again with the UFO thing, again with the Jesus thing, too. Will Sheff, a great songwriter from

Ocarville River, who's been on transmissions, and he and I have kept in touch. I mean, we talked when he was on transmissions, the song UFO by Jim Sullivan is very clearly about Jesus Christ. If you read the lyrics, yeah. A lot of people live in by the words that he said, too much goodness is a sin today, I'm checking out the show with a glassy eye, did he come by UFO? And he's like, you know, it was nuts because he pointed that out and it was like, well, it's just so abundantly clear. And these are my two primary preoccupations. Why haven't I realized this? Immediately I felt like a dummy, you know what I mean? Like this thing of being like, how I've listened to this song so much I've written about Jim Sullivan.

I did the liner notes for the second album, the Playboy album, which is also really good, although I like UFO more. But yeah, Ken and the UFO story. So in that case, did he legit get abducted? I mean, he kind of disappeared, right? Like nobody definitely disappeared. He definitely disappeared. And there's a lot of people who say like oh He wandered in the desert and he died and somebody made a whole podcast like picking apart the legend You know of like what happened, but it's like at the end of their podcast They were so no they were debunking that he was abducted by UFOs or that something else happened, but they didn't they don't know what happened. They didn't come up with an alternate solution. They didn't find Jim

Sullivan, so they were just sort of like he probably wasn't abducted by a UFO and it's like okay yeah based on all likelihood something else probably happened you know but again it comes into like the realm of legend there you know it's like we live in such a disenchanted world, can't we just kind of run with it? Let us have this one. It doesn't hurt, it doesn't detract from the experience of listening to his tunes, it imbues it with that much more mystery and romance and all the other stuff that like, everything that gets sacrificed on the altar of extreme rationality sometimes. So, you know, but yeah, as far as that thing goes, I mean, I honestly don't know exactly there, there were, there's always

been like Jesus is a space alien kind of stuff, but mostly within the new age milieu. So I'm interested in trying to like drill in and figure out where in the sort of more directly Christian cultures, it took root because it continues to be a thing. Like some of the people pushing UFO stuff in our government right now are like very explicitly Christian people who I think they think they're like demons and stuff like that. You know, they think UFOs are, you know,

are bad spirits or something like that. You know, they think UFOs are, you know, are bad spirits or something like that. And like, so it's clear that it's still there. And then you get cooler takes like Tanner Boyle. I don't know if you guys know him, a great writer. He's on Substack, but he's kind of talked about how Christian, like UFOlogy is a way for Christianity and like Eastern religions to Fuse in a certain way It's tanner rat fiction under TC boil. I There's a different guy. That's I know he's got am I mixing him up. That's not TC TC boil is a different Mississippi. Yeah He's got he's got a great book. It's sitting around here somewhere

different. He's from Mississippi, yeah. He's got a great book. It's sitting around here somewhere. It's like the the Fortean influence on science fiction or whatever. So he's like into like Charles Ford and stuff like that. But he also is a really trenchant like reporter on the sort of and like the CIA and all these like groups constantly doing weird UFO disinfo. And you know it's like it's a huge it goes back again as long as we've talked about UFOs, but I am curious where it crosses over with the, with the more explicitly Christian thing. It's an interesting area. I would bet that the, if you look at the Jesus story,

it is kind of UFO in format and structure. It's like he was sitting here from somewhere else like Gnosticism is kind of That like Gnosticism is really wild because the basic concept is that the that God is not perfect that God is actually extremely imperfect And that the world therefore is very flawed. And so Jesus is sent to earth. And like not only is the world flawed,

but it's also basically immaterial that we kind of occupy a very like immaterial fluid plane, like where the spirit actually is more solid and concretized than the actual corporeal form. Like I don't, you wanna Gene Wolf it all? You ever heard about Gene Wolf at all, Jason? Great writer. Man, fucking good ass shit.

I mean, narcissism's nuts, you're right. It's fascinating. But it's like the concept is the demiurge, right? Where it's like there's a false god who's in charge of our world. And he's got these things called like archons that kind of Almost like harvest our misery. It's like I wonder why so many people resonate with that notion these days, you know I wonder why that seems like such a compelling story, but obviously like the matrix made narcissism like a huge thing

Yeah obviously like the matrix made narcissism like a huge thing. And there's also the kind of God above the false God who is real, who is like not the God of the Old Testament, but is sort of more in line with the God of the New Testament. I don't know exactly how it breaks down, but narcissism is fascinating. And obviously that's a huge influence on a lot of singer songwriters, you know, and writers. I mean,

Cormac McCarthy, hugely influenced by narcissism. And there's all sorts of fascinating stuff on that on that front. But I mean, even that, if you think about it, narcissism really only comes into the popular consciousness after the discovery at like Nag Hammadi and like the- Yeah, in like the 1940s. Yeah, so it's like not even really, it's old obviously, but it's like our cultural sort of grappling with it is not that old in the grand scheme of things. So it kind of is in line with all the flourishing

of mysticism and stuff that happens in the 50s and 60s and 70s, you know? How were the Gnostics and the Essenes related? Because the Essenes didn't believe in the deity of Christ, right? That was kind of their thing. I don't feel like I know quite enough about the Essenes, but I do know that there's kind of crossover. And that, I mean, when I was growing up,

I would hear about narcissism kind of in church. My uncle was the preacher at our church, so he would answer questions and he knew what he was talking about when it comes to this stuff. But I kind of talked with him about narcissism and he was like, it was kind of like an early heretical sect of Christianity.

But it turns out a lot of people didn't view it as heretical at it turns out like a lot of people didn't view it as heretical at all. Like there was a lot of intermingling between early Christianity and Gnosticism. And like lots of Gnosticism still finds its way into the culture through Christianity, right? Or like Philip K. Dick, you know, is like this complete Gnostic figure

in terms of his like awakening to the, but I don't know. Do you know how the Essie ends work? Terrence no, I don't I it was a it was like an early Christian sect Kind of like the Gnostics I'm sure there was like so much diversity back then in terms of like how people were interpreting this stuff You know lots of stuff we don't know about. Yeah. Yeah, especially when like the whole You know the figure of crass was not that far in the rear view and all this stuff was popping off. Yeah Absolutely, absolutely and

obviously he was Not of this world. He was an ET which well I mean in from it little busta looks crazy when they had him crucified. They're like wait was not of this world. He was an ET. It must have looked crazy when they had him crucified. They were like, wait, what? He looks a lot. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. It is interesting though, because the concept, I kind of still, I don't really adhere to Christianity anymore but I mean still the primary fascination for

me and like one of the ways that I sort of one of the lenses through which I view the world or whatever but like over the last couple years I did start reading a lot of stuff by Richard Rohr I don't know if you guys know him at all the cosmic Christ he's like a Franciscan friar, and he's done some like podcast stuff, and he kind of writes about like this, like I think maybe one of his books is called The Universal Christ or The Cosmic Christ, I might be mixing it up, and kind of like associated with like like Oprah had him on and stuff, and Deepak Chopra and all this stuff. He kind of rode that line, but he has kind of like a cool notion of like the Christ being something different than Jesus, you know. It was embodied

for that time in the body of this guy, but this idea is this long, it's like this kickstart of creation itself essentially is the way he reads it. And so in some ways that's kind of Gnostic too, and also kind of New Age and kind of all the other stuff, but it also is like a really old way of thinking about it also. It's like not, he didn't invent that, you know what I mean?

But for a lot of people, I think that's the way in to like thinking about that, which is a real perennial sort of a way of looking at the story Right as like I mean, it's like it Christ is a is a sacred figure in Islam. He's just not the soul Messiah, right? so it's like You know it goes pretty hard that like the This is kind of the gene wolf tie-in it goes pretty hard that like you

As part of your religious practice you eat of the flesh and drink of the blood Like that goes so hard like and it's kind of been, you know pretty watered down now But it's like when you think about it at its basic root You know, it's really funny. It's like actually You know what's really funny is like actually It has been watered down obviously I mean that was that was one of the reasons why the Romans thought the Christians were so friggin weird Yeah, because they were eating the flesh and drink. They're like they're eating the flesh and drinking the blood, you know

They're eating the cats. They're eating the dogs, you know things like that, but they the whole the whole thing Even when I was growing up, I grew up in a pretty, you know, it was technically, it was like, maybe be classified as like non-denominational, but it was actually like more hardcore than that. We didn't have any denomination we thought was as right as us or whatever. And I'm maybe being a little uncharitable, but there used to be a real actual sort of like, you know, over in the Catholic Church, they believe in transubstantiation, the idea that it really is becoming the blood

and the body or whatever, you know? We believe it's like representational or symbolic, therefore what we're doing is normal. What they're doing is really weird, you know? Even though it's not, it's the same thing. And I just remember even then, like, still, you know, adhering to, like, a faith, but sort of being like, there's gotta be a way

that this is just all the same thing, you know? Like, cause obviously they're doing the same thing. I'd been in Catholic churches, I'd seen them. The only thing I thought was weird is that the guy had to put it in your mouth for you, and I didn't like, I didn't love that part. You know? Didn't know if he'd washed his hands or –

I don't know what's going on. It's just a little different where I come from where you just take the little – the thin wafer and the grape juice. No wine. Yeah, right. Yeah, we had the Welches, yeah. We had Welches. I mean, I had to get it ready sometimes.

Yeah. I did service. So it was sometimes, you know. I did service, you know, so it was like yeah. But yeah, it's funny that that like sort of like cannibalistic, there's so much about it that's weird and feral and strange and like still, you know, it's one of the reasons why when I sort of was like, I don't think I'm a Christian or whatever. I was also sort of like, but like, what is a Christian? There's like so many types of that thing, you know? Like it's not monolithic.

And I think that's one reason why sometimes like certain ex-vangelical tropes kind of like rubbed me the wrong way, you know? It's almost like you're exchanging one rigid system of opposition for another rigid system of opposition. I don't know exactly but you know I was like I'm just gonna still be into this stuff and read about weird Gnostics and William Blake. William Blake's a weird a cool weird Christian? Or something like that. Oh yeah. Yeah. Just, but before I get people screaming at me,

the Essenes were a Jewish sect, and they predated Jesus, and they may have influenced Jesus. Respect. Yeah. So, I need to state that I got raked over the coals for not knowing Quebec separatism was a thing, and people were absolutely aghast.

I did a note growth for not knowing that Quebec separatism exists. You can't know everything. You can't know everything, and I'm glad you brought that up, because that is different than what we said. It's different than what I guessed or whatever. Yeah, so thank you for like legitimately checking it. They presaged Jesus.

Yeah, and I mean like, Alan Moore, you know, other people write about like, you know, all the, there's lots of myths that presaged Jesus in really fascinating ways, you know, like Apollo, just sun god myths, you know. There's stuff in, you know, like Apollo, just Sun God myths, you know? There's stuff in, you know, ancient Egypt that's similar and... Yeah, the... It's all...

Yeah. Christian... or Christmas was, in the ancient, you know, communities, a sun worship holiday, because it was like the first day of winter. So the Sun is about to the days are gonna start getting longer now You're bringing the Sun back so Christmas was like work Sun worship Yeah, it's now it's Sun with an S. Oh in worship exposure to the S. Oh in prevents burning Yeah, I think yeah, I mean it's what a weird which is once again

You know I don't know it's hard for me to even like articulate how weird his books are but That's the that's gene wolf's entire thing. Yeah, it's like the new Sun. You know it's like coming to earth It's like kind of like trying to show like a sci-fi version of like what would happen if Jesus came back, but he was actually a really badfi version of like what would happen if Jesus came back but he was actually a really bad person but like you had all these like gods in a poly theistic religion and like their gods were real but they also were contending for human souls and I don't know yeah very yeah I I've, yeah, it's funny because like this is kind of a weird season with like this Superman movie coming out and you forget easily how like Christ like that basic story

is too, you know? Also a character written by these two Jewish guys who, you know, I don't think viewed Christ as like a divine figure, but nonetheless, like this is like a father sending his only son to a planet, you know, where he'll have great power and be able to do great good or whatever, you know, and it's like, yeah, it seems like that idea as a culture, we're addicted to thinking about it, chewing on it. We do love it. Yeah, it's weird, yeah.

But if you look at like Superman and the tradition of sun gods, I just finished rereading, I don't know if you ever read Grant Morrison's Super Gods. It's a really good book. But he really, he kinda just reminds you like, yeah, Superman's basically like a sun god, you know? And our culture, it's resonated with like the culture

for decades and decades now, because it's like a story that's baked into our consciousness on some level, you know? And so it's a really interesting thing to think about. But yeah, like how from outer space is Jesus allowed to be is my favorite question these days. What do we mean? Yeah.

The Mormons have kind of outer space stuff, right? They do, they do have some outer space stuff. Yeah, that shit goes hard. I mean, I could probably never be a part of a formal religion that does have outer space stuff because it does always tend to like there's the heavens gate master Immediately think of heavens gate Unfortunately, like immediately there's a really cool documentary coming out of the unarians

Have you do you guys know them the the some kind of like Southern, California? they basically found it like a public access studio in order to like create these like access studio in order to create these past life psychodramas that are heavily science fictional in nature. So it's basically like an art religion and the great documentarian Jody Wiley is making a documentary about it. She did the Yahuwah 13 documentary about the Source family from a decade plus ago. She's got this great one coming out, I think at some point soon called

Welcome Space Brothers About the Unarians. And they seem, they have like a predicted date that the mothership will arrive and that date comes and goes without the mothership arriving. But other than that, they don't seem to have like a tragic end the way Heaven's Gate did. They seem much cooler, better adjusted. It sounds like, me and Tom were just talking

about this the other day, it kinda sounds like realism, which is also another UFO religion. The Ray-lians. The Ray-lians, that guy. Is that realism? Yeah. No, I don't know if I know, tell me who that guy is. He's the guy that was like a race car driver He was a yeah Claude, okay

He was like a yeah, it was just like an UFO cult Let's see they engage in daily Meditation they teach that in extraterrestrial species known as Elohim Created humanity using their advanced technology and atheistic religion that holds that the Elohim have Historically been mistaken for gods if you look up their logo. It's a swastika inside of a star of day I gotta say I think this is good. That's gonna be a tough sell for a lot of people Like they were on the Kanye thing before Kanye was doing that, you know what I mean?

Like putting the swastika inside there. That's interesting. The race car thing is interesting because I feel like there was this guy like Sir John Whitmore who was also in the racing scene who was really alien obsessed and there was sort of this group, I only know about it because I'm a Star Trek nerd, but like Gene Roddenberry hung out with this group called The Nine, and there were a bunch of people in that, or these people who were channeling The Nine rather.

The Nine are like- Where The Nine's satanic, right? I don't think it's satanic, I think it's like pretty much like standard grade theosophical kind of like stuff. Just sort of like there's these benevolent space beings Ascendant Masters out in the galaxy in there kind of like channeling messages but like Gene Roddenberry gets hired to write about this and then Like turns in a script

It's like mostly just about like a washed-up writer having a hard time like post his television show getting canceled That's like really what his script was about and they were like we were kind of hoping you'd focus a little more Nothing really came of it, but so you okay, buddy This is tough man No, but and he like Andre Pujaric like was involved in that he was like with it And is that the spoon the spoon bender guy, you know, I'm talking about your ego That's Yuri Geller. Yuri Geller is not involved directly Andre Pujaric has associations with Yuri Geller. I see and and

the channel or guy, the remote viewing. That guy's name is completely slipping my mind. But another CIA, no, another CIA kind of guy who hung out and would say this is where the Soviets are hiding a bomb or whatever, stuff like that. Do like remote viewing stuff. So it's just like this CIA saturated weird group of like new agers and Gene Roddenberry

hung out with them for a second. But there was a race car driver involved in that too somehow so I gotta tie all these threads together. Yeah, something about race car drivers, driving fast. Race car drivers, driving fast really gets you thinking about the cosmic scope of things You know I think the French guy that started the Rayleigh and thing was I think he got into Race car driving to promote the Rayleigh ins. I think it was like

He thought that was like Promoted to the world. Yeah, it was through yeah eating shit in a bunch of like Technically, yeah Isn't technically nation of Islam a UFO religion cuz isn't Jacob kind of like an alien like or is it? Yaka, is that you know why am I getting that confused with something else? I Mean, I think if you think about it that way like Yeah, and there's like, and that's again, that's one of the reasons why I kind of mentioned

like Mormonism, right? Because like it is, as the emerging idea of like outer space and alien idea, as that becomes more just something people know, it immediately makes its way into religions. Right. You know, like Mormonism is sort of like a pre-space age, homegrown American religion. And what always blows my mind about it

was how many other religions sprang up at the exact same time as Mormonism in the exact same place, you know? Sort of like upstate New York. Most of them, yeah, most of them didn't like become religions that like are one of the major religions, you know? But Mormonism did. Something about its mix must have really spoke to them.

Kind of took off, yeah. Whereas I was revisiting Mitch Horowitz's Cold America, I guess, a couple weeks ago. Love that book. And he was talking about the Shakers, who the Shaker Village is like five miles from my house when they kind of came down from the Burnover District into Kentucky and further southeast. And yeah they didn't fare so well as the Mormons you know I think that. No they had what the universal public friend was a shaker, right? I think that's right, yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, another kind of, sort of prophet who,

like a skewed gender, you know? It was like, yeah, it's fascinating stuff. So, I mean, but yeah, like so many things popped up, but like something about Mormonism, I don't know. I wonder if the space element, if that's just, there's something about it. We live in such weird times for space stuff too. We live in weird times for religion, and we live in terrible times for space element, if that's just, there's something about it. We live in such weird times for space stuff too. We live in weird times for religion

and we live in terrible times for space matters because it just sucks. It does. Really does. Everything going on with space sucks. Everybody's like, we gotta go up there and get some. What have they going on with, terrestrial really sucks too.

Yeah, it's true. It does seem to be we're spreading this, we're spreading this problem further. But no, I mean, I don't know. It's like you would, I don't know. It's like you would I Don't want there to be like a Burger King on the moon, but I do want there to be I don't know We do want white slavery on the moon white slavery on the moon for sure I

Mean, you know Yeah, I don't and it's like the more I mean obviously like the kind of like Muskeen Yeah, I don't and it's like the more I mean obviously like the kind of like muskian Drive to like get off of this planet, you know get away from our our mother in some cosmic sense Like that's obviously like the worst, you know, and it's like as somebody who's always loved Cosmism on a kind of broader scale or has found it, you know fascinating. It's like there's no vision there. There's no, you know, it's just like Gross just dumb It's it's a death. Oh, it's a death cult at deathly cult literally masks itself as

like a utopian communal living Cult so often that's what that's a huge right utopias most the time right is that most the time the utopias Most the time the utopian thing is like there's not a lot of us though. That's important to remember And then with that comes some implicit evil stuff a lot of the times, you know But it but yeah, it it's one of the reasons why you got a wonder, you know Star Trek and stuff like that's like he's I don't know is he's that kind of utopia. Is that real? You know, I don't know. Is that ever gonna happen? I don't know Yeah

well, um fellas, I gotta be on my way but uh Jason I think that's a good that's a good place to end on it. Like is this real is any of this ever gonna happen? That's what that's really the question. Yeah. Jason, before we cut you loose, I tell you a story I just wanna tell you. I was listening to your Jeff Bridges interview from Transmissions the other day.

And whenever Terrence and I had the good fortune to have Nick Offerman on this program way back in the day, he took us to Sally. They were, you know, everybody was setting up to, his handlers and everything was setting setting up and he turns to me And Terrence he's like listen, I don't usually like brag about this stuff, but Jeff Bridges and I are making a movie together and you should know that we're in love

And he shows us his phone where Jeff Bridges had emailed him Pages and pages and pages are just YouTube links of songs he thinks that Nick would like just like totally random That is the absolute best thing, you know, like yeah, that's the second time I got to talk with Jeff The first time was for AD as well. Yeah, and he's just like the coolest dude. You just want to be like Can we hang out all the time Jeff? the coolest dude you just want to be like can we hang out all the time Jeff could we do zooms could we do zooms together every now and then because he does have he has like a like a charm and an energy that comes off of him you know we didn't even have the camera on for our interview you know what i mean they were like hey Jeff wanted to know if he if he could just have

the camera off if that's okay and anytime a guest guest asks for that, I say okay, because I know that's how Krista Tippett on on being does it. She has never has the video on. So it's just like this more intimate voice to voice communication. But um, so I kind of like doing that. But that was the case with Jeff. And I but like, I just had to imagine he was reclined right like Practicing his strike like while doing the podcast or whatever. Oh, yeah, big Lebowski style. Oh, yeah That's yeah before we take off tell everybody where they can find yet and you got anything you want to? Tell ya Yeah, man. Well, you can find me. Thank you guys so much for having me on I really love the show and

Want to say well first off I'll shout out Zack and Taylor long time Trillbilly's listeners who? Only one of them knows that I'm taping this with you and the other one will be surprised to find out But it's her favorite show. So hello Zack and Taylor and I made a record with Zach that I wanted to tell everybody to check out. It's called A Mass Like a Rat King and it's like an indie pop kind of pretty fuzz heavy at times. We had a really fun time making it and so people should check that out. They can find it on Bandcamp. And of course I host the Aquarium Drunkard Transmissions. We just finished our 10th season, had all sorts of incredible guests like Mr. Jeff Bridges and some other incredible ones, Bonnie Prince Billy, you know, it was a really good season. Yeah, there you go. And that's the, and so you know, that's out there and then I do this thing

called Wasteoids where we're making all sorts of stuff in Phoenix with our friends at hello merch So those are all different places. You can go to find me But yeah guys, thank you so much. It's such a huge treat I like I said, I'm a big fan of the show and I don't get to yuck it up about DC talk enough in my life So I appreciate you guys affording me this opportunity. Oh Places all ours. Yeah invitations open next time you wanna talk about uh Carmen. Remember Carmen? That's a good Christian artist. Oh. That's a that's a that's okay we're that's a cliffhanger for the for the

audience because uh because we can we can do it we can do we can do Carmen. I had a grandma who was big into Carmen. Yeah, grandmas love Carmen. Grandmas love Carmen. And Michael W. Smith. Carmen and Michael W. Smith. Yeah, yeah. Much more to cover, but yeah, thank you guys.

I appreciate it very much. Yeah, thanks Jason. Thanks Jason. And go check us out on Patreon. The link is in the show notes as always Thanks for listening trailbillies fans We'll see you next time peace out So I'm out. you