Triple Click - A Deeper Look At Final Fantasy VII Rebirth

Episode Date: March 7, 2024

Kirk, Maddy, and Jason travel back in time and make their way up Mt. Nibel for a deeper look at the stellar Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, a game about traveling the world and playing animal soccer.One More Thing:Kirk: Our Last Best Hope (Magpie Games)Maddy: True Detective: Night Country (Max)Jason: The Dynasty (by Jeff Benedict)LINKS:Preorder Jason’s Book! https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/jason-schreier/play-nice/9781538725429/Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy Triple Click Merch: https://maxfunstore.com/search?q=triple+click&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

If Final Fantasy 7 deserves more than one remake, then surely Final Fantasy 7 rebirth deserves more than one podcast episode. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week, we're talking a bit more about Final Fantasy 7 rebirth, a game so big it feels like it will never end, even after it's ended. There's a lot to talk about, so let's get into it. I'm Kirk Hamilton. I'm Maddie Myers. And I'm Jason Shrier. Hello.

Hello. We're back again. Welcome back to Part 2. of the triple click remake trilogy. Triple Click Rebirth? I think that's what we should call it. Yes. I was calling it once more with feeling,

a la the Buffy episode. So we're going to break out into song. I mean, Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth might be a musical. It has the cadence of a production of Pippen at times. I think that's fair to say. Ufi's voice actor

definitely wants it to be a musical. She has big theater kid energy, for sure. Triple Click itself is basically a music It's like a Broadway musical of a podcast. It is totally listener supported, just like Broadway musicals. Okay, it's something like a Broadway musical, but it is a listener-supported show. We love you all, and we love that you support our show. And if you would like to support the creation of Triple Click, go to Maximumfund.org

slash join, and doing so will get you access to many, many bonus episodes, the most recent of which is on three Martin Scorsese movies, the upcoming episodes of which may or may not focus on certain big, budget video games that we may or may not be talking about in this episode. Well, that'll be the third part of the triple-click remake trilogy. Yes. Maximumfund.org slash join. That's where you can become a member. Though it is worth keeping in mind that Maximum Fund Drive 2024 is just around the corner,

then that is a better time to sign up to become a member. And that'll be this month. So if you're thinking about becoming a member, maybe hold off just a little bit longer and become a member during Maximum Fund Drive. Okay. Let's talk about what we're talking about this week. Maddie. We are going to talk in depth about chapter one of Final Fantasy 7 rebirth, which I haven't been in the game yet, but still might be my very favorite chapter of this game,

because there's just so much Sephiroth slash Cloudstrife action happening here truly feels like the work of a dedicated fan fiction artist top to bottom. But yeah, I really, I really want to get into what happens in the opening of this game, which depicts Cloudstripe telling the story of the Nibbleheim incident, which is something that happened in his hometown that involves Sephiroth burning the place to the ground after having previously been lauded as a soldier who is like super great. Everybody loves Sephiroth. And then he had a psychotic break in this moment that is not fully understood by the characters, the main character. characters of Final Fantasy 7 and not even really fully by Cloud strife, but Cloud does his best to tell beat by beat what happens leading up to Sephiroth's psychotic break and him burning down this town. And here's what I really like about this. They keep cutting away to like Barrett

interrupting Cloud during the story and asking for clarifications. And Barrett is kind of like the player or perhaps the newcomer to Final Fantasy 7 who is like, what? Just curiosity. Like, what are you talking about? Like, what is this freaking story? But yeah, I loved this. Did this work for you, too? Jason, what did you think about this retelling of the very, very famous

Nibelheim incident? And did you think it worked as an opening for the game? Yeah, it's a really great opening because it's such a scene for Sephiroth and kind of explains his dissent pretty well. It's a good kind of backstory and doesn't feel too lengthy. The thing that struck me about this and really has struck me about the entire game, which I finished roughly 15 minutes ago, is how closely it sticks to the actual story.

So what you're describing Maddie actually happens in the original game, as Barron interrupting and be like, hold up, hold up, you did that. Or like if you go into Tifa's room and you rummage through her closet, then she'll interrupt and she'll be like, you did what? And the thing that really strikes me, strikes me is that the structure is all the same and it's a lot of kind of the entire the story is a lot of expanding rather than kind of going in different directions which kind of surprised me after the ending of the first game and might surprise some people who have just finished final fantasy seven

remake saw this scenario play out where like the main characters have changed their fate supposedly from the original game and then watch and then you'll find that that a lot of the same stuff is playing out as the original game. But yes, but as a section, I mean, I really like it. A lot of people, I saw a lot of people after the demo came out complaining about the Mako-fuse stuff, and do not worry that never happens again in the game. You never again have to. Oh, no, maybe like once, one other time.

But it's mostly just resigned to that area. Oh, boy, wait, that's like the vacuuming up, the Marco. I had actually forgotten about that until you said that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about that section. Forget about it because there's so many bespoke, like, viny games like that that you just totally forget about. It's one of the more forgettable ones. Yeah, right?

It's like there's so much stuff in this game that you just keep reading. But anyway, in general, it's really well designed and well structure. I can see why you loved it so much. Mani wanted to talk about it so much. It's also very fun if you know the kind of the twist of the nature of the flashback because you might notice Cloud acting differently than he does in modern times. Yes. But they do add, and before I'll get to Kirk, I'll say the non-spoiler version of this is they add a scene between Tifa and Ereth in this that is not in the original game, but that I wish had been because it feels like it should be there.

That's the kind of additions in this game that I think really work, where Tifa says to Ereth essentially, in so many words, I remember the Nibbleheim incident differently than Cloud did. And that is something that comes up in the original game. And then she confronts him about it too. Yes. And we can talk about that scene, which is another completely. completely new, not in the original game, scene. But Kirk, I want to hear from you what you thought about this first chapter and if it worked for you. Yeah, it worked for me. I had recently gone back over all the events of Final Fantasy 7, so I was very fresh on what was really going on.

And that also affected my read on the actual first scene of the game, which is the scene with Zach Faire and Ereth back at Midgard. Because that happens actually before this flashback and is very disorienting, or at least, I think, intentionally so because suddenly you're playing as Zach. Aerith is either dead or injured and in this helicopter. It just seems like the ending isn't the ending that you remember from the game that you played. And then it cuts to calm as Cloud tells the story, which sort of destabilizes you in a way, or at least it did for me and helped me remember that, oh yeah, okay, now we're going into the Nibelheim flashback. This is going to be kind of hewing fairly close to the events of the original game.

But we did have this unusual thing happen at first. And then after the story is told, right, I think that for me it was the scene where Tifa confronts Cloud and they have this kind of, they reach an impasse, I guess, because she says, well, that's just not how I remember it. And he is, you know, seeing Sephiroth and kind of hallucinating. And the two of them just don't seem to be able to agree on one version of events, which, yeah, then, of course, is a recurring theme throughout the game. So I asked, I spoke to the director of this game, Nyoki Hamaguchi, a few weeks ago. and I asked him about that TIFA thing because I thought it was really interesting and I had just played it before speaking to him

and he told me that like that was the sort of thing where like in the original game because it was so low-res and because it all felt kind of condensed and metaphorical it wouldn't have been that strange if like Tifa didn't confront Cloud about it afterwards

but because everything is so modern and realistic now he felt like it would be strange if like Tifa didn't say something at that point so I thought that was an interesting kind of explanation from him Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's also part of why the other scene on the rooftop where Tifa goes to confront Cloud works so well, because this is the kind of thing that, well, I remember going to anime conventions at the early 2000s, this was the kind of thing that was a frequent argument in the hallways where it's like, well, why does Tifa say anything to Cloud earlier about the fact that their memories diverge about this key moment in their lives? It's something very frustrating about the original game. So to have this moment where first she talks to Eryth because they're really good friends in this game, and I really like that.

We can talk about that in a bit about her diverging memories and being like, this doesn't make sense to me. And then she goes and confronts Cloud. But he interrupts her before she can even say what she's going to say. And he's like, I don't believe you are telling the truth or you are deceiving me in some type of way and accuses her of maybe being like a Shinra clone or something. like that. I mean, they're seeing these hooded figures walking everywhere. Because he's got Sephiroth in his ear. He's got Sephiroth on the brain. Just sort of literally, figuratively, all top to bottom. And he's like, weren't you hurt in Nibbleheim? Weren't you stabbed? And what happened to you? And this really isn't adding up for me, Cloud. Like, he gets the

first word in before she even manages to come out and be like, I don't even remember your version. And I thought that was really effective because it helps shift the power dynamic away from what you assume is going to be a scene where cloud is corrected and like everything falls apart. Instead, it's a scene where both characters don't know who to trust. And you, if you're somebody who doesn't know the full events of the original Final Fantasy 7, I thought that was also just really effective for those players to then still not find out what really happened and also have that. level of doubt of like is Tifa who she says she is and is Cloud who he says he is? We don't know after this scene. Because the other thing the scene does is that Tifa lifts part of her shirt to show Cloud her scar from having been stabbed in Nibbleheim. But we don't get to see that. We like the camera is behind Tifa's back in that moment, which I thought was fascinating, like a

fascinating choice. At first I was making fun of it and I was like, they just don't want us to see Tifa's underboob. Like is this just like a prude thing? where they know we love Tifa's huge rack and they don't want to show it to us. This game is so prudish when it comes to Tifa. I know. Yeah, I mean, we do get to see her in a swimsuit. But then I was like, she's already wearing almost no clothes.

That can't be the reason. But then I sort of, you know, grew up and stopped being 13 years old for two seconds and realized that it was actually intended as sort of like an evocative narrative moment that makes you question what is real because Cloud is repeatedly seeing things in this game. So we're like,

is he going to seize Tifa's scar and even understand what he's looking at. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's a cool moment top to bottom. But let's talk about Ayrith and Tifa's friends. Kirk, I know this is one of your favorite things in the game. Do you want to talk about this for a second how amazing their friendship is?

Sure. I think they're, I mean, I really like both, the depictions of both characters in this game. I think they're just really great. They're very different, but they're just very winning characters on their own. And it was a, yeah, a smart choice to make the two women, the two sort of main romantic interests,

and the clouds two girlfriends. And to make them both friends, I think, is just like a smart call. Like, it is a lot more fun than having them not like each other or be rivals. And really that gets fleshed out over the course of the game. There are some really great scenes. I just saw one particularly great scene with Ereth, just where each character is, like Tifa and Ereth have different paths and are different people and are sort of wrestling with different emotional issues.

And they do that in a way that I think is really, well drawn. It is emblematic of something about these remakes that is interesting and kind of fits interestingly with that explanation that you got from the director, Jason. That in the original game, there was

so much abstraction. We were so far from everything because of how everything was rendered. They didn't feel the need to flesh all this stuff out, to have the characters make sense, to think through, well, would Tifa and Ayrth be friends, you know, or would Tifa confront Cloud about this thing? Like, would they have

this conversation or that conversation. And as a result, the game did leave a lot of space for us. This was something Lee Alexander and I talked a lot about when I first played through this game for this whole letter series. I think I talked about this back during rebirth. But that was my first introduction to this game. And a big part of what I came away from that experience with of playing through the original 1997 game was that the game leaves so much space for our imaginations.

It even has like different layers of detail, like different levels of detail for each character. There's the polygonal character, and they're very silly-looking little dolls. But then there's also their character art that shows on their character page, which is a little more illustrated and gives you more of a sense of what they look like. And then in combat, the 3D model is much more detailed. So you kind of get a better look at them than you do when you're out in the world. So there are these different levels of detail, and that allows you to kind of fill in the blanks. Like you can see what they look like. And so even though you're not seeing all of these scenes, I think to a lot of people, the characters came to life in their imagination.

And that is something that these remakes, by necessity, almost, do away with because it just doesn't work as well when everything is so vividly realized. I know we talked a lot about this with remake as well. It's not exactly a shortcoming of the remake. It's just a difference. And it's cool that the director, it's interesting to hear that the director is aware of that and that they feel the need to fill in all of these gaps because you can't leave gaps in a game that looks like this with performances like this with this much space. Yeah. So I really feel that with every character interaction in this game. Really, everything. I mean, if you look at the world map in Final Fantasy 7, it's kind of like these flat polygonal like surfaces that you can now imagine being transformed or you can almost imagine that being kind of like a symbolic, like a, as if you're looking at an actual map and then you go to the place and that's what it looks like in Final Fantasy 7 rebirth. And that to me is really fascinating as well. Man, yeah, the map itself, it's almost too bad that they relied on this icon system where you go to the tower and then you just see where everything is.

Because there is this really lovely holistic map design going on. First, the map itself, if you look at it, there's an area later where there are these kind of platforms you have to reach that launch you to other platforms. And a lot of navigating the map, it becomes a little more difficult in later areas. Yeah, I was being vague, but I guess whatever. The map becomes more difficult to navigate. and it requires you to kind of go look at the map itself, and then you realize looking at the map, like in the map screen, that the mushrooms are drawn onto the map.

And there are a lot of things like that. It actually reminds me of playing Eldon Ring. I realize looking at the map of Eldon Ring, like, oh, actually, I can see where there's a cavern or I can go get upgrade materials because it's just a map. The difference being that Eldon Ring doesn't really put that many icons on the map ever, so you have to rely on the graphical map, and Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth does.

There are icons everywhere. Another example of that is there are those Lifstream little life stream pools that you find that you analyze one of the Intel things that you do in the world and there are these owls that'll come and they'll fly and they kind of hoot at you and then they fly toward the live stream and you can just follow them to get there

but of course if you've already scanned the tower it's just an icon on your map like you don't really need the redundant system so there's a lot of that stuff actually in this game that makes me think that the open world was sort of redesigned and reconceptualized a few different times and that there was a version of this game where maybe fast travel was more limited. Jason, you and I were talking about how the Chocobo stops were almost certainly fast travel at some point because they're kind of pointless now.

And then also that there weren't so many icons and you had to rely on things in the world to navigate, which I don't know, I can see both ways. Like it's definitely nice to be able to get around and there's so much stuff in the game that it's fine to just select an icon and go toward it. But you can see these other things going on, these kind of redundant systems in the fleshing out of the world. It would be frustrating if you're trying to complete an entire map and you have to go around looking for an owl without any indication of where that life stream might be. But yes, no, 100%. I think that's kind of an interesting. I'm sure that's an argument that the designers had over and over again while making this game.

Something else I wanted to bring up on the metaphor part is that something that English speaking gamers or really non-Japanese speaking gamers would have had a unique experience with, which is that the English translation of this. game of the original game in 1997 was so mangled that you really missed a lot of context. And to this day, it's actually really sad that to this day there's no way to play like a proper English translation of the original Final Fantasy 7, at least an official one, which is kind of strange. Are there unofficial ones? Are there like fan translations? Yeah, I'm sure there are.

This game is so popular, but I'm sure there have been a bazillion. And there was a PC version. So people made mods and there's a lot of stuff out there. But yeah, but there's been a lot. And Tim Rogers, of course, did a video series on Kitaku about translating, Platimony C7 and all the quirks involved in there. Yeah, those are good videos. But even looking, so here's a good example.

There's a scene like midway through the game where Barrett gets into a duel with dime, and it's really interesting watching the kind of original version compared to the new version and seeing kind of what has been expanded, what was maybe lost in the nuances of the English translation the first time around, what wasn't, what was changed, and so on and so forth. But it really makes you feel, again, just because of the amount of expansion happening in this game and the amount of fleshing out scenes that were otherwise maybe just kind of throw away 10 second little blips in the original, you really feel like you almost, you missed out playing this game in English as opposed to the original Japanese. But at least we have this, which kind of feels like

it's telling the more definitive version of this story. And it does feel definitive. I think that because of the nature of this thing and because, as I mentioned before, it's not really concerned with changing all that much and really is just more focused on expanding and adding. And it is a very additive game. This is kind of improv the game. It's yes and the game. I think because of that, it really feels like the definitive. It's like becoming this definitive version of Final Fantasy 7. But I also think that because of what you're saying, it's easy to kind of undersell how incredible of a task that is because they're essentially adding dialogue for characters who have lived in our imaginations for years as very, I don't

want to say underbaked, but almost like intentionally tropey and simplistic characters because like their costumes were narrative shorthand. Just the way they looked and moved was narrative shorthanded and the way that fighting game characters are. Like that was the extent of the characterization for somebody like you. for example, or Vincent, where it's like you barely get to know these characters and they can even be skipped in the original game. So to have them be fully fleshed out is kind of a dangerous proposition for any narrative designer because you're fighting against people's preconceived

notions of what these characters are supposed to look and sound like. And kind of the most we had, like we talk about the movie Advent Children a lot, but like that visual style is kind of the most we had of like what are the characters quote unquote supposed to look like if they could somehow be more realistic people and beyond that like what kind of a personality was eufi supposed to have and what personality would eryth and tifa have if they could have really long conversations over many wandering around the wastelands together type of RPG moments it's so easy to mess that up and have people be up in arms and be like i can't believe they remade this game and they added all this stuff and like I hate so-and-so's personality now.

It's actually pretty wild to me that I haven't seen that. And instead what I see is people arguing about whether you're supposed to date T for Ereth, which truly the argument that will never die. Yeah, there were a lot of points. I mean, to, to, there were a lot of points along the way that like expanded some of these characters beyond adventure. True. Like, Kingdom Hearts for one.

Yeah. In other parts. I mean, Vincent got his own game on the PS2. Bless him. There's Crisis Core. There's a lot of stuff. So like, we've seen. many, many versions of cloud and 3D with voice acting and stuff like that.

But I think to your point, Maddie, I think if you're playing this, having only really played the original and maybe kind of like skimmed over a couple other things here and there, it is a remarkable achievement that they managed to capture the essence of all these characters, even with all that in mind. And I think you're right about that. And I think the key there is that they just pick the best possible actors and animators and writers and English localizers for this game. And I don't think there's a single bad performance in the entire game, not just the main characters, but like really everything.

It's all just so fun and well, well executed in a way that a lot of, even a lot of other Square Enix games, even a lot of Final Fantasy games are not. And that, I think, is really just, yeah, to your point, I mean, compounded the achievement. And that level of excellence is really the difficulty of that is compounded to your point by the expectations of it all. Yeah, which is like absurd to even fathom. I mean, even when like Kate Sith, which I guess that's actually pronounced Kitchie, I'm so not used to say. We can call him Kate Siff. It's a loud here. Like the idea of a goofy cat with a Scottish accent, like having that character sound like a person at all that you can even talk to is an absurd achievement in it of itself.

Like there's so many silly characters in this game on top of just kind of like the regular. kind of pathos of like, okay, we need to present this love triangle and have that really work and have people genuinely freaking out about which of these two girlfriends cloud is going to end up with and like, who's he going to date? And we also need Barrett to like have all the pathos that his storyline deserves and is, I would argue, very strongly implied by the original Dine scene that you refer to. Like that may be a minimalist scene, but I think it's still actually really effective, even in the kind of mangled English translation version, you can still really get something out of that scene and it's original version. But to then expand it out and have it still be effective,

I don't know. I can't even believe that I didn't hate it. Any time I get to one of these scenes, I'm like, wow, okay, I guess you guys did it again. The humor is the key, I think. I think the humor really just makes the emotional moments hit all the harder because this is such a, the game is so good at kind of finding that balance and making you drawing you into these characters of the humor and then making care about them so much that you'll spend the entire game wondering how it's going to end or that you'll just kind of like see these scenes and and that are more emotional and really I mean Barrett's duel is made all the more impactful by the fact that he's not just kind of this like um polygons stereotypical like aggressive like warrior dude he's actually got this heart and personality

and is joking and like is protective of of his kid and even of like random ass clone dudes that he finds and having that humor I think just just makes it all the more impactful and especially when you compare it to like a lot of other games again a lot of other square in these games some other final fantasy games it's just like that are way too serious and take themselves way too seriously um this game just shows the emotional pathos of having that humor and what it can do yeah there's a level of joy in this game I think that is directly related to the fact that this is remaking an established game and a really beloved

established game, the people making this game almost certainly felt really thrilled to be getting to return to this world and these characters. And they didn't feel the pressure of building a new world with new conflicts and new characters the way that I'm sure the people making, say,

Final Fantasy 16 did. They can just be totally, they can just revel in the fact that we're back in this familiar version of Final Fantasy with these familiar characters and make this game that's just so full of joy. Like there are so many little things in this game that are funny, like you said, and goofy, like we've said, but also just, I don't know, if you uncover one of those chocobos stops,

there's this lengthy animation that I find weirdly satisfying where Cloud picks up the sign that has the cement on the bottom. And anyways, he fixes the thing up, and then you can take a rest on the bench. And when you do that, I don't know if you've noticed this, the little chokobo that, you know, guides you there. Like there's a little chocobo that goes and gets you. They're freaking adorable. They're like teen chokobos because the babies are much smaller.

Fair enough. You're right. But they're young chokobos. He kind of takes a nap on the ground in front of you when you take a rest on the bench. And it's just a little animation where it just lies down along with you. There are so many little things like that. Even just those chokobo sequences where you have to sneak up on a chokobo, I've seen people complain about them because there's four stealth sequences and I guess that's annoying. I personally don't find them that difficult.

and they're so completely silly just the way the chokobos stupid face looks when it sees you all of the animations and the sounds related to chokobos they're just really joyful and silly and I find all of that kind of stuff just all those little details and those little animations really delightful and I sense the delight of the people that made the game and I think that's tied to them getting to play in this world again

Hamaguchi who I mentioned actually was in high school and Final Fantasy 7 came out and played it and is now in charge of this game, which I think shows that clearly someone is a fan of this game. I mean, I mentioned the kind of the little references last time. And then I think on top of that, Kirk, I think, too, the other things that they add that are kind of like feel like they're joyful and delightful and exist to surprise and delight you as a player are a lot of the new stuff, the side quests that wind up. So in this game, because of the nature of the story,

they can't really surprise you in some ways. You know that you're going to go to Cosmo Canyon. You know that you're going to wind up fighting Sephiroth in some capacity. You know what the major story beats are going to be. And although it leaves room for like, hey, maybe we're going to play around with alternate realities here. And be in a different order for example. And surprise things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that might happen. But also what they can do is they can surprise players with the new stuff. So, for example, there is Queensblood. We talked about that last time, how amazing a mini-game. I mean, we could keep talking about it. We could. Yes, it's fantastic. But that whole thing... I've got a pretty good deck going these days.

If you beat... If you rank up in Queen's Blood, it becomes a storyline, and you uncover the story of Queen's Blood, and it ends in this surprising way with its own sort of twist and subversion. Or, like, if you do... That's a little more dramatic, but, like, for a more fun one, if you do all the Mughal houses as you go, when you do the last one, you get this just complete joy of a scene that is, like, not gonna... not going to blow your face off or anything. It's just a little moment that you're just like, oh, my God, this is such a joy. I'm very glad I did this. Which is, I mean, I think there are good reasons to do a lot of the open world stuff. And one of them is because it will all just continually delight and surprise you, especially if you're enjoying the kind of the overall components and experience of playing this game.

Mm-hmm. I mean, there are certainly some side quests that I've done and I've been like, I should not have done that. But most of them, I'm like, that was a surprise and a delight to me in a way. Which ones did you not? I mean, I talked about it last week. I don't know why there's a soccer game in Costa del Sol. We don't need to talk about it anymore. It's so weird.

There's some really strange. Do you mean a side quest or do you mean just like a mini game? Well, I would say, okay, so there's a side quest where you can take Ayrith on a date. I don't even know if you can do anybody other than Ayrth. And as part of that, you can participate in a couple of mini games because that's what you do on a date. You go, you go watch a soccer game and you go play some arcade games with your date. We all know what a date is. You go watch your dog play soccer against other people's pets.

Yes, we've all done this. That's a date. That's dating. And so, of course, as part of this quote unquote date, you need to control Red 13 playing soccer. I think part of my issue with that one and with some of the other mini games of this game is that I didn't understand. understand that you can actually still pass the qualifications for going on a date with Ayrith, even if Red performs really poorly in the soccer game, which is how I ended up kind of winning that one, is that eventually I just gave up and I was like, I guess I'm not going to complete this

quest. I'm just going to stop playing soccer because I'm mad and I'm just going to X out of it. And then you get this cutscene where Red apologizes to Aryth and Cloud for doing such a poor performance for them on their date, and it's actually really funny. Like so many other things in this game, he's adorable and he's like, sorry. Yeah, I mean, Maddie. If your sports team of choice had to be good every time you went out of date, nobody would ever be able to go on dates to Jets games. Exactly. Of course, I was obviously thinking of that as well because I care about sports so deeply.

And so I was able to pass the quest, but if I wanted to like unlock a bunch of additional collars for red or something, I think I do need to continue to play soccer. But I'm not going to do that. And I'm at peace with that. I'm okay with not having all seven. every character gets seven special weapons. I have moved on emotionally from that,

but I do want to play all the side quests, because like I said last week, it's the dialogue I'm here for. It's the funny moments that I really am enjoying and that I want to keep seeing. Yeah, as you're describing as a soccer game, it's really Rocket League, and that's kind of what cracked me up about it,

is that they have just recreated Rocket League, just like they've recreated Mario Kart and a variety of bot-based RTSs. I'm not going to diss that one. That one's incredible. Anyway, back to you, Kirk. Yeah, yeah. The Chocobor racing is pretty fun. There is a RTS game for Condor, which I believe was in Integrate or it was in the DLC.

It was a simplified version of it was in Integrate, yes. No, other way around. The simplified version is in this one. The more complex version was in the theater. Yes, that sounds right. And I did not play very much of it in the DLC and just don't really like that game. So there are times, like you have to play through. Yeah, the reason that I made that.

that correction is because in this one it's way less fun because you have fewer choices. And so there's a lot of luck involved in this version of Fourcondor, unfortunately. Yeah, and it's on the Proto Relic quest, which there's one of those in each area. And it's tied to what appears to be a very fun and kind of big deal, major quest that it's only going to be completed if I can get all the proto relics. But, yeah, in June on in the second area, man, the final match of that Forkondor, I was playing, this was before there were any guides. I was playing early, and I just hit a wall.

And I probably spent like, I don't know, 45 minutes or something just doing this stupid match over and over again. And it made me extremely frustrated. And I finally went and just, I read guides. And there still aren't good guides for it. Here's why. You can't replay those matches. The game is set up such that you cannot replay those four Condor matches once you've defeated them. You cannot do it.

Game, don't let you do it. I don't, I hope they patch that in. Yeah? Are you sure? I thought they unlock like a hard mode. You can't replay it. Look, if I were a professional guides writer, I would save the game before playing the match, and then I would do it a whole bunch of times, and then I would write a guide that worked 100% of the time. That's all I'm saying. But let's say you didn't know ahead of time that you needed to have that save file. And then perhaps if you were a polygon guides writer, you would be desperately posting in Slack every day, asking people if they had a save at that particular point in the game.

Okay. I was disappointed in the quality of the four condor guides that I found online. Some sympathy. It's a hard job. Writing guides is a hard job. It is our job. But also, I'm sympathetic because those four condor matches. are so hard. They're ridiculous. They are. I will say the guides, it's very funny seeing guides pop up the first day that a game comes out. Because you can tell who put in the work and who didn't. I saw a guide for Queensblood. I won't name a shame. But I saw guys for Queensblood that clearly the writer had not gotten past like chapter five. Because it was like, you need this one card that is like the basic card, one of the first cards you get in the game. And if you do this, you'll win every time. And I was like, man, you clearly.

clearly have not gotten into the actual. Yeah. There's a certain chocobo that likes to play Queensplod that I should introduce you to. Yeah, well, it's pretty good. Just wait. There's some good stuff. Yeah, I've got a great deck going. I've been pretty unstoppable in Queensblood. So anyway, point being that there are definitely some side quests and, you know, many games that I find very frustrating or don't care for. Just they'll introduce something really involved. And I almost just grown, especially at the point that I'm at, I'm far enough in the game. I'm in Nibbleheim. I'm in the, I'm, I've done a lot of side stuff, but there comes a point in

every young man's life. You must just sort of decide to, there just comes a point where it's like, oh my gosh, like, do I really have, you know, another dozen hours? And like, maybe, maybe I do, you know, I'm sort of balancing the side stuff with the story. But when they introduce a really involved thing, for example, a protorelict quest, that's just one more extremely involved mini game. And I just, my jaw kind of hit the floor. And I'm like, man, this is a little, little too much. So I will say that as delightful as some of the side quests are and as many of the minigames are, there are some real stinkers as well. Like, they do not have a 100% hit ratio. There are some that I like a lot less. But they fine-tune the game in a way such that you can totally

ignore the ones you don't like because, like, Maddie, the one you're describing, I don't even think, like, you can get all the weapons without doing the minigames. You don't really have to do that stuff unless you want like every single possible reward in the game. The game is very good at like, it's very smart at making most of the important side quests, either have such a low threshold for minimum or like make it so approachable that you can actually beat enough of the minigame without having to spend hours mastering it or it's not tied to something at all or you can fail it like you were able to. Yeah, you can fail it in advance the story. So like all of the green side quests, the ones that like actually have character relationship implications or

have some interesting kind of subversion at the end, those are all very doable without having to worry too much. The one where you have to glide at Chocobo is kind of a pain in the ass. So there are times where I guess a little tricky, but yes, generally that's true. I'd say the one exception is the Proto Relic. But then again, the Proto Relic Quest seems to be kind of designed as something for people who really want to do something elaborate that takes a lot of time and involves a lot of different mini-games. And that's cool, like if there's the one thing that's like that. Yeah, the Proto Relic. Okay, so I didn't realize this until I got to the final part. part of the Proto Relic stuff. Protorelic is like, the reason it's so tough and elaborate is because it's leading up to the toughest challenges in the game. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

You can't actually beat the Proto Relic the entire chain unless you're prepared for some really tough fights. You need to be a certain level, so you may as well do every single thing leading up to it. Well, it's not, I don't think it's level so much as like you have to be really good at the combat in this game. Fair enough. Yeah, yes. It's like, so bear that in mind as people are going forward, bear in mind that that's going to lead to this game's equivalent of like the optional super boss stuff.

Right. Can I explain a eureka I had in combat, I hope sometime over the last week that I think at least some listeners will find helpful. That is that synergy skills and synergy abilities are different things. They are. And you can use, I don't even remember which is which. I'm proud of myself for figuring that out way earlier than Kirk. Good for you. Yeah, it's that they're two different things.

So one of them, I believe it's synergy skills. You can just pop off at any time. And synergy abilities require to be activated in combat when you reach a certain level of synergy. So in combat, you can just attack with those skills and they build up your ATB really quickly. This is something that I had not realized. Like the game, I just think it's like an unfortunate naming convention. By calling them synergy skills and synergy abilities, I just kind of looked at them and then just kept moving. because I was like, okay, those are just those things that I get to activate every so often.

Yeah, that's the synergy combat. Right. Got it. I'm almost certain that I'm not alone in just not thinking about them. And so I thought I'd throw that out there. It's just another element of combat that's really cool because they're available at all time. It is cool. Speaking of unfortunate naming conventions, I just died on this kind of boss sequence, multi-stage boss thing.

And I got the option of retry before current, retry before current battle, retry before this battle and re-trived before. Oh, my. Check fun. Dude, those prompts definitely could be more clearly worded. Just to change gears a bit before we wrap on this discussion, I do want to talk about the fact that Jason did not remember who he took the gold saucer the first time he went, and Kirk and I were the fuller opposite.

Not a big shipper that Jason Shreiber. Not only remember, but... No, well, hold on. We established I didn't have anybody. That's why. I am baffled by this. Is that really possible? Well, what happened to me was there was a knock on my door,

and apparently that's supposed to lead to a date, but the knock on my door was nobody, and then I saw like Red 13 walking away, and then I just went down the elevator. And then what happened was, your cloud is so sad. And then what happened was whenever I went to, when I went to each of the squares,

someone knew would be waiting in each square and would hang out with me there. Wild. So I guess that's what you do, if you're Jason and you're not pursuing anyone romantic. Well, you're in cell class. Not in cell, VALSA.

So what I had done, VAL cell class. Well, so I had been doing every side quest. So what I assume is that like, if maybe you have everybody kind of equal, like relationship status, maybe that's what you get,

but I don't know. But also you can level up people using synergy abilities and skills. So you could, you could just do every side quest, for example, and then you could just make sure to only do synergy stuff with Red 13, and then you'd go on the date with Red 13, 13, the man and his dog date, you would end up on that. I just think it's fascinating that you

had a true equilibrium. But then you're not as effective in combat if you're limiting your synergy skills to only a couple of people. Right. And Jason is apparently the perfect. But I don't know if that's the answer. I'm just assuming. I don't, we'll have to wait until someone figures out the entire relationship. Right. Like maps out all of the dating options. Which, by the way, in the first game, it's really interesting. It's just kind of random dialogue choices that, in the original game, I mean, it's just these random dialogue choices where you have to like, like, pick between two mangled English sentences and you help me picking the right one. It kind of works that way in this. It's not mangled English, but like, for example, the conversations that you have on the beach at night after you kind of have that boss battle during the day on the beach.

Like you walk up to Red 13, you can have a conversation with him. There's kind of like a right and wrong answer that you can choose there. I think it's like Persona 5 where they're weighted. There's one that's best, one that's no one. Yes, exactly. That's probably what it is. In the original, it's a point system. So this might be plus five. This might be plus five.

This might be plus five. And also in the original, it's very weighted toward Arith. So it's actually tougher to get the other ones than it is to get Arith. That's interesting. But people have figured out how to get it. Especially given how much the TIFA shippers this time around have been claiming this game confirms that Cloud Tifa was real all along. Cloud Earth should never happen.

I don't know about that. but it definitely, it definitely centers a lot on their relationship, on Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Well, if you're going for that. And also centers a lot on Aeth and Zach's relationship. So it feels to me like pretty, pretty straightforward, even though, of course, you can play it however you want. Well, you guys should, I mean.

We might want to beat the game, but who's to say? Let's put a pin in that one until the beans cast will be all beaten the game. And I will also say Kirk is, his version of Cloud has taken Tifa on a date. And my version of Cloud took Aeth on a date. So for me, so far, seeing a lot of cloud airspace. Well, so for the actual date I got Arith, which is the second time you go to the golden saucer is the actual date. Yeah, I guess. And the scenes I'm talking about are in Nibelheim with Tifa.

Got it. There's definitely a lot of scenes between the two of them and they're back in their hometown. I mean, I don't know. I like married someone from my hometown. So I'm probably just biased in favor. Fair enough. I guess I married the equivalent of Arith. I don't know.

I'm going to have to really do some soul searching about that. one, but mostly I just thought it was interesting that even though Jason loves the story of this game, he's still just kind of noped out on the love triangle, whatever, you know, Cloud is just chilling. And on that note, why don't we take a break and be back in just a jiffy with one more thing. Max Fund Drive 2024. Max Fundrive? What about it? It'll be the best time for someone to support the podcasts they love. Oh, yeah. Drive exclusive gifts, special events, and of course, all the amazing bonus content.

Yeah. So, what's on your mind? Check. It starts March 18th, and it's only two weeks long. And check. Well, what if they miss it? Well, they should follow Max Fun on social media or sign up for the newsletter at maximumfund.org slash newsletter, so they don't miss it. Otherwise, checkmate. It's hard to explain what happens on Jordan Jesse Go.

So I had my kids do it. Saying swear words. Saying square words. Yeah. Bad jokes. Bad jokes? Bad jokes. Maybe it's like you tell people that you're going to interview them

and then you just stay there like really quiet and try and creep them out. It's just really boring. Because of Jordan, right? Not me. Because of both of you. Oh. Subscribe to Jordan Jesse Go. A comedy show for grownups. And we are back.

It's been a jiffy. Yep, just a jiffy. It's been a jiff. Moms like us choose jiff. And we're back. Kirk, what are you up to? My one more thing this week is a pretty cool tabletop role-playing game that I just played with a sort of smaller version of my D&D.

group called Our Last Best Hope, which is as very story-focused role-playing game made by Magpie Games. It's written by the head of that company, Mark Diaz Truman, who has written and made all kinds of role-playing games, though this is the first thing of his that I've interacted with. And we just finished it last night. It took us a couple of sessions to play through it, though you could totally do it in one session. And I thought it was really interesting. It was really neat. This game came out in, I think, 2012. So it's been around for a while. It was kick-started, like a lot of these sorts of projects. And it's definitely in the vein of role-playing games that aren't D&D,

like that aren't built first and foremost on an extremely complex combat system and are instead designed to just allow for collaborative storytelling. So the way it works is the setup is basically one way or another, your group of characters are starring in a movie about a group of experts who are trying to save the world from a cataclysmic event. So think Armageddon or The Corps or, you know, like any of those movies. Independence Day, kind of. Yeah, it could be.

We had actually an alien invasion in ours, though it's a little more like you have to go somewhere and, like, put together a team and go on an expedition either into space or to the Arctic North to, like, stop something from happening. Like annihilation, but maybe it ends a little better than that? Yeah, it's not really like annihilation. It's a little more tropey than it. It's not as bizarre as annihilation. I mean, if you were. really creative, I suppose you could make it a little more like Annihilation, but

so sure. But no, it's a little more like, you can think Armageddon, the core, those sorts of movies. And you each make a character and there's like a whole, you know, framework for coming up with your character and the things they bring with them and you come up with the crisis. What is the crisis? For us, it was... Are they tropes or like the movie, movie tropes? Yeah, I mean, they can be. The trope can be, you know, it's kind of broad and then you can make it as specific or as tropey as you want. For us, it was aliens have landed, or there's like a threat from aliens. I can't even remember in the north.

And we said that they had landed there and begun melting the polarized gaps. So we had to get up there and stop them. Yeah, that's our job. Get out of there. We do that. We're the ones doing this. So then you come up with a limit, like what is the limiting factor on your team? You come up with like three pieces of equipment that you take with you.

And these things are all kind of mechanically important for how the story is designed. and then you move around the circle and you have scenes that play out where we had three people so two of us would do a scene together and the third person would be kind of like the game master a little bit they'd be the voice of the computer in our car

that would tell us what was going on and then they would play a threat at a various point so for example my character was a scientist and my friend Ryan's character was a doctor like a virologist and my character hated his character that you kind of pick early on, like one character drives you crazy and one character makes you sane. So it's like you find one character calming.

And so it like builds in all the tropes of these kinds of movies and gives you a reason to act them out. So then we're kind of fighting. And then I know his secret because you write one secret for each character. And his secret is that he took credit for his subordinates work and has actually never done anything. So I'm I like reveal that in the middle of our scene. And then all at once suddenly like there's a flood because that's the threat that plays. And there's like a flood of water coming down. And then we have to figure out how.

we're going to overcome the flood. It's a little bit hard to keep track of everything the first time you go through. We had printouts of all of the books. And once you start getting into the threats, there's like a whole system of dice. You have like a bunch of white dice and a bunch of black dice that are like threat die and like hero die. And you like assemble them into different pools and roll them against one another. And you can like spend story points to have.

It gets a little bit complicated the first time you're playing through. But I thought it was really interesting to just watch someone. try to assign mechanical value to all of the different moving parts of what amounts to a basic screenplay. Like, it gives you, like, between us, we wrote, like, a ChachyBT-level screenplay for, like, a TNT weekend movie about, you know, like a group of people who save the world from aliens melting the polar ice caps. And, like, I think that's just really interesting, just as a writer and as someone who likes stories, to watch someone try this out. And I'm sure a lot of these RPGs do the same thing.

But we really had a good time just kind of goofing off. And like I said, it was super low impact. This game is not expensive. You just use note cards for it. I think it's like $20 if you buy it and you just get the source book. And you can just print it out, read it off your phone. And you just write a bunch of stuff on note cards and you just need dice. And then you can just play.

So really it's just about giving yourselves and your friends a framework to come up with a story. And because it's so short, it's very low impact and very fun. So I really thought it was cool. It was the first one of these non-DD RPGs that I've played, but we're going to try another couple of them after this one. So that's our last best hope by Magpie Games. And, yeah, I dug it. That sounds really fun.

All right, I'll go next. As promised, Dina and I watched all of True Detective Night Country, which is the name of season four, and we freaking loved it. Yeah, it was good, right? But it's so scary. Yeah, it's scary. It's so scary. I didn't have any nightmares.

but it could still happen later this week. I feel like there's a lot of spooky stuff. Also, significantly more supernatural than any other previous true detective season, so much so that I would say it feels almost like a different show. And I don't know why some people didn't like this season. I've seen like sort of the scuttle butt online of like, oh, you know, there's people who really don't like it.

And I don't know why they don't like it. I don't get it either. I don't understand it. I thought it was freaking amazing. I loved the mystery. Yeah, it was just good frigging TV. I thought the reveal was incredible because I like had kind of a thought in the middle of the final episode where I was like, okay, it's just this then. That's what that is. And that's, that's fine. And I guess that's how the show's going to be. It seems like a weird thing to me, but okay. And then they just do a further, like next 30 minutes of the show happens and then something else happens. And you're like, oh, what? And I love that. I love that. I love it.

I love when a mystery kind of thinks, makes you think that you've solved it. And then you're like, wait, there's 30 more minutes left in this episode. What are they going to do? Oh, they're going to do a bunch of other crazy stuff? That's amazing. So yeah, highly recommended, totally stand alone, much like all the other seasons of True Detective R. I think maybe we liked it better than even season three, which last week I described as the best ever.

But really, this whole experiment was extremely entertaining. So if you like mysteries and you want to just watch a whole bunch of television in a row, I recommend watching every episode of True Detective in a row and having a nice time doing it. So yeah, that's True Detective Night Country. Really, really, really good. Really good mystery. A lot of ghosts and spooky zombies. It's scary, yeah.

Watching in real time, I was a little skeptical going into the finale. I was like, have they bitten off more than they could chew? Like, this is, there's a lot going on. Yeah. The finale, you're like, how? How are they going to solve this? Like, what is happening in this town? And I was so impressed by the finale.

I love a little ambiguity, honestly, in a mystery. And I thought the finale, like, played with ambiguity in really cool ways. It was great. But I was expecting more ambiguity. Like, I was like, they might not solve this. Like, they might not figure this out. Oh, well, but it was satisfying. I thought it was a great mix.

Yeah. And apparently, Issa Lopez is going to be back for the next season of show. I'm so glad she's going to be back because I really liked her season. So sorry to the haters, but I really like Isa Lopez's season. And I'm excited for more. of whatever the heck this is. All right, Jason, it's your turn. Well, I used to read books before I discovered this.

As recently as a week ago, I feel like. Two weeks ago. Before I discovered this game called Bellatro, I used to read books. I used to do lots of things before I discovered Bellatro. And I had started reading before I discovered Bellotro, this book that I have been meaning to talk about, which is called The Dynasty by Jeff Benedict.

And this book is about the New England Patriots. Maddie, you might enjoy it. So this book is interesting because it's kind of like the, the, I guess, most in-depth look at the Tom Brady slash Bill Belichick slash Robert Kraft saga. Robert Kraft, of course, you guys may know as an Overwatch League owner. At one time, yes. That's right.

Who not only was an Overwatch League owner, also convinced all the, like, a bunch of the other sports team people to go and join the Overwatch League. So this book, it's kind of, it starts from the very beginning, from Bob Kraft, buying the Patriots and goes all the way until Tom Brady leaving. And it's really interesting because the writer got a lot of access. He spoke to all three of the main figures. He spoke to a bunch of teammates and people around them and really goes in depth on their personalities.

You see the kind of the driven Tom Brady and the kind of evil palpit. style of Bill Belichick and his heart-assness. And you see... Is Bobcraft Darth Vader in this? No, the way Bobcraft is portrayed, I'm actually a little skeptical. I think the writer might have gotten a little too close because Bobcraft is portrayed as this like noble businessman hero who saved the team from being moved away from New England. And the book is extremely readable.

And for that reason, I recommend it because it's very entertaining. And I feel like even if you don't super closely pay attention to sports, I think it'll be really interesting to you. In fact, I think it just became a docu-series. I don't remember where. Maybe Max or something like that. But yeah, it's very, it's very propulsive narrative. He does the thing that I always complain about,

which recreates scenes and dialogue and stuff, but a lot of non-fiction books do that, so it's hard to keep complaining about it. But it's very readable. It's very, very fun to read because it goes in depth on these guys in a way that not a lot of stuff has over the last couple of decades because that organization has been so opaque and kind of good at keeping secrets, at least up until the later years when the relationship between the three of them started to fall apart. And what I like about a story like this is that obviously it's about sports, but not just about sports. It's also about what you need to sustain excellence over the course of a long period of time.

It's called the dynasty for a reason. Like this is a football league that, a football team that had like an inordinate amount of just team success that nobody has achieved. Nobody else has been like it in the history of the sport or really in the history of most sports other than like Michael Jordan's bowls, which is its own kind of fascinating saga with ups and downs and personality conflicts. So yeah, so it's interesting. And it's interesting seeing the dynamic between especially Brady and Belichick and how they do or don't work. well together is really fascinating. So if you out there would like a book to read and you have not started playing Bellacho and let it ruin your life, go check out The Dynasty by Jeff Benedict because it's an interesting one. Yeah, sounds it. Jason, would you say that the New England

Patriots are the Blizzard Entertainment of the NFL? It's interesting. Interesting comparison points there. And that could be the topic for a future. I mostly just wanted to see how you'd react to the question. Well, the arcs are interesting because, like, the sustained excellence and it all falling apart and the personality and kind of... I mean, definitely some parallels there. Just a few things you were saying rang familiar. Yeah, I mean, a lot of stories of, like, greatness, people achieving greatness, there's almost always some, like, simmering tension because there almost has to be for, like, these creative collaboration to work so well for so long. and when people are just like around each other constantly, I mean, anyone who's been married for a long time knows there's always going to be tension points and like things that you kind of have to look past or things that you kind of like want the other person to change, but they inevitably don't.

I don't know what you're talking about. My relationship with Ayrith is going perfectly and nothing's going to go wrong at all. I can't think of anything that's going to go wrong with it. But whatever. Nothing. It's going to be perfect forever. It's going to work out. Cloud is mentally well and Ayrith is going to be fine.

That's fine. Yeah, right. I was going to say, Arith wishes Cloud was a little bit more kind of aware and socially kind of adjusted, whereas Cloud wishes Arith was a little bit more alive. And on that note, why do we say goodbye?

All right, yeah, this has been another wonderful episode. Maybe next week we won't talk about Final Fantasy 7, but no promises we're all still playing it. Or at least Kirk and I are, congrats to Jason for beating it. No, I'll still be playing it. I got pro-erile quest to finish. You got to do that.

You got to do something for Chadley every single day or else our lives are meaningless. And on that note, we'll see you next week. Yep. See you next week. See ya. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music.

Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in this. the show notes. Triple-click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun podcast network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximumfun.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at triple-clickpods, send email the triple-click at maximum fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artist-owned shows. Supported directly by you.