Triple Click - Early Thoughts On The Last Of Us Part II

Episode Date: June 18, 2020

Maddy brings on special guest Rob Zacny (Vice, Waypoint Radio) to give some early impressions on The Last of Us Part II. They talk about what the game accomplishes, why it didn't do what they hoped it would do, and they try to avoid spoilers while navigating that ridiculous embargo. Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick   🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK: Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch 💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD 🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy 📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpod Instagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

First things first is what we've got last. That's right. It's the second last of us. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week, I talk about The Last of Us Part 2, a sad game about revenge and zombies. It's not out yet. Kirk and Jason haven't played it, so I brought on a guest who had played it to talk about it. I'm Maddie Myers.

I'm Jason Shrier. And I'm Kirk Hamilton. And hello, welcome. Welcome to Triple Click. Yay. We're back again. Welcome Maddie and Jason. It's nice to see you. Thank you. You both. Here we are. Time to do another show. So, up front, first of all, of course, if you would like to support us making this show, you can find out more about how to do that at maximum fun.org slash join. And we hope you check that out. Thanks so much to everybody who's become a member to support Triple Click, because that makes it possible for us to make this show. And also, you can write us. People write us emails all the time. You can write us at triple click at maximum fund.org. Last full episode, I hope you all liked that bonus episode that we did.

It was kind of a complete episode. It's almost funny calling it a bonus episode. It was a surprise. Yes, it was a surprise. An extra. Yes, a bonus in that way. Hope you were all surprised. An emotional bonus.

It was an emotional bonus. But our last full episode, we ended. We talked a little bit about being stir crazy and isolation, and we asked for listeners feelings about sort of being in quarantine this whole time and how some places are relaxing their requirements. And we got a very good email that I wanted to read from a listener who asked to be anonymous, but she is a physician. And she wrote in with some thoughts on that.

So she wrote, Last week you asked how listeners felt about relaxing the quarantine constraints. I am a physician in the U.S. and I have seen the devastating effects of this virus. Remember, nothing has changed since the start of the quarantine. There is no cure, no vaccine, no 100% effective way of limiting transmission other than isolation. In fact, it seems every day the medical community is learning something new about this virus and the damage it can cause. Yes, the numbers have gone down in some parts of the country because we have been isolating. But once we lose that focus, once we start asking, is it worth the risk and leaving it up to individuals to decide the fates of our grandparents, parents, brothers, sisters, and infants, we have already lost the fight.

If we start to let our guard down now, all of that hard work of isolation will have been for nothing, and we will be looking at an even longer and thus more devastating pandemic. I know it is emotionally and physically exhausting to limit contact with others, and many people are dealing with other extreme stressors at this time, but if we can continue to stay strong in isolation, we can keep this virus at bay. Stay safe, spread love, and play more games. All the best, anonymous. P.S., thank you so much to Maddie for bringing a female perspective on video games for ladies like me who love them. Nice. Seemed worth sharing, only because we were talking a little bit about going stir crazy,

even though, to be clear, in the context of saying, like, maybe after, really carefully quarantining, going with one other group of people to a quarantine place, and in no way where any of us suggesting, sure, go out to a concert hall or something, because we really can't, even though it sucks and is exhausting. It is important to just keep playing video games, though. That's very good advice from her. Just keep it up, everybody. But, yeah, I mean, I was thinking about this and talking about this the other day

about how, like, we were still learning things, and the physician makes a good point about how we're still learning things. it seems like being outside won't infect people as much as being inside. There is some research on that, although it's all still developing, but there's some research about how open-air gatherings. That's something we didn't know even like a month ago. So it's just good to know that we're like still learning things constantly. And if you're making your own plans, I think, like, and you decide, like, you know what,

I want to go hang out with these people socially distance. It seems like outside is less of a risk than like going to church or, a concert or whatever. Or a very small and closed space of any kind. Or, you know, like a huge super crowded political rally. For instance. Yeah. But anyways, video games.

Let's talk about video games. Okay, fine. Oh, okay. So this episode is a little special because there's a really big video game coming out and it's called The Last of Us Part 2 and yet only one triple click host has played that game. Who is it? That host is.

me, it's Maddie Myers. So for this episode, we're going to do something a little bit different. Jason and I are definitely going to play this game, though we have not played it yet. It's going to be a beans cast in fact. Eventually, yes. Down the road, but I'm sure before that, you and I will also have many opinions about this game. Yeah, we'll talk about it next week and such. Yes.

So for now, though, Maddie, you're going to be talking with someone a little bit different. Is that right? That's right. I'm going to bring Waypoint Senior Editor Rob Zackney onto the show to do a little spoiler-free, still under the embargo discussion of The Last of Us part two because he reviewed it for Waypoint and I thought it would be nice to talk to somebody who actually played the game unlike you two lazy bones. Unlike us scrubs. So yeah, Kirk and I will disappear for a little while and we'll be back later for one more thing.

We're going to go get a socially distanced drink in the yard. Hello everyone, your resident editor, Kirk here. I am currently editing the show and just finished editing the conversation that Maddie and Rob Zakney have about The Last of Us 2. It's a very interesting conversation about both of their takes on the game. And I wanted to issue a sort of like specific spoiler warning because I haven't played the game. And I think I kind of have a sense of what people may or may not want to hear. So basically, a ton of this game is under embargo. Maddie and Rob don't get into too many particulars, but they do talk about their big picture thoughts.

And some of those thoughts do involve like sort of broad feelings involving the ending. So I just wanted to put a note up front that they do talk about sort of what they made of the ending and whether they found it's satisfying or not, could probably extrapolate things from if you wanted to, though there are no specifics. They also mentioned the specifics on like a couple of sort of story beats. Again, nothing major. I don't think anything that wasn't in either of their reviews, but I just wanted to mention that some beans are on the floor, though not very many. It's a great conversation if you want to come back and listen to it after you've played

the game. For now, you can skip ahead to one more thing, which is at 40 minutes and listen to that. Okay, that's enough for me. Here's Maddie and Rob. So the Last of Us came out in 2013, and The Last of Us Part 2 comes out to tomorrow. I played it. I reviewed it for Polygon, and I just wanted to talk to somebody else who had also played the game. So I've brought Rob Zakeney onto the show. He's a senior editor at Waypoint, and he also reviewed this video game. Hello, Rob. Welcome to my podcast. I am so glad to be able to

finally talk about this game with someone who's been on the entire journey. Yeah, I know. The entire 20 to 30 hour journey of this game. But Rob, we can't talk about most of the game. And, Rob, we can't talk about most of this video game because there's an embargo in place still. Yeah, we had a very funny moment on the Waypoint Radio we were recording basically, like I had skimmed the embargo agreement when we got it, and I was like, yeah, yeah, okay, no big spoilers. Figuring that was going to be the usual thing. And then Patrick starts reading it, and he's like, can we actually talk about very much here? and at that point I was pretty far along in my review and so I had like it was like learning that you were just doing the wrong assignment at 11 at night

and so I had to be like oh shit I've just got to scrap everything and rewrite this thing before three in the morning. Okay that is the most stressful story I've ever heard perhaps even more stressful than the plot of the last was part too I don't know who's to say I can't reveal what the plot of it is But we could have a whole half hour just talking about the nature of spoiler culture and like what naughty dog has and hasn't decided counts as a spoiler for this game. I respectfully disagree with them on some of their decisions about what they consider to be a spoiler for this game, which is basically any information about the plot at all they consider to be a spoiler, including the premise. Yeah, I think you can't put a spoiler tag on your premise. Yeah, exactly.

The premise of the game. So I guess I'll say people do know that the game is about Ellie going on a revenge quest. You play as Ellie, who is also in the first, the last of us game, but you only play as her for a hot second in this one chapter. And in this game, you're put in her shoes. And that is about all we can say. But we're going to try to say more than that because otherwise, what are we even doing here? So let's go back to 2013. Rob,

true, 2013, what did you think of The Last of Us, the first game, and how it fit into games at that time period? So I actually loved The Last of Us.

Right on. Like, I was very much on the other side of, when the backlash came for the Last of Us, I was still sort of Yeah, I was sort of staring at my shoes being like, well,

I rather liked it. You know, man, that's a perfectly fine way to feel. A lot of people still feel that way about that game, and it has some great aspects to it. Yeah, but I do think a big part of one of the things that caused people to turn on The Last of Us was, and I talked a little bit about this, but I think Joel was very easy to turn into your archetypal, like, toxic male protagonist. And a lot of how that game was interpreted later was very much.

about this reading as almost like the villain origin story. And to me, I felt it was a little bit murkier. I didn't totally like buy that that was actually the text of the game. Like I took a more generous interpretation of Joel's actions during the end of that game. How much can we get into the end of that game? Yeah. So just a note for listeners, I think we have to spoil the last of us, the first game, because so much of the last was part two is about that decision that Joel.

makes at the very end of the first, the last of us. So if you are a listener who's currently playing that first game and has somehow managed to avoid that spoiler this whole time, first of all, props, you must have some incredible filters on your browser. And second of all, you should probably pause this podcast and just not listen to this whole section. But yeah, I do think it's, you're right, Rob, that the way that people interpret Joel's actions at the very end of that game, which I'll just briefly summarize it. So he's transporting this teen girl Ellie for the entire game. He's crotchety. At first, he doesn't want to transport this teenager. He has his own grief about his daughter dying at the very beginning of the game. And eventually he sees Ellie as a surrogate daughter, kind of. And he gets to this hospital because it turns out that Ellie is the only person that we know of who's immune to the zombie virus. There's a zombie apocalypse in this game. And this hospital has these sort of members of this activist group that are developing a cure. Some of them are medical professionals. And they need, as it turns out, to kill Ellie in order to develop this cure, which is a pretty flat moral choice.

But I'm not here to talk about the last of us. I'm here to talk about the last of us part too. But Joel is faced with this very flat, almost soap opera-esque choice wherein Ellie must die so that the world may live, but he can't bear to let them go through with it. So he takes Ellie away from the hospital and has to kill some medical professionals in the process, which also means he dooms the world. as far as he knows.

I mean, we don't know if there's some other way that a vaccine could be developed, but as far as we know, the world is now doomed. Yeah. And I think I got a little bit hung up on the notion that even within the world of that fiction, I could totally buy that it was as flat as maybe they were trying to make it seem at the end, right? Like so much of that game was also about laying out this history that there have been a lot of false dawns in the zombie apocalypse, right?

There's a lot of people who've been convinced that, like, oh, just on the other side of this next sacrifice, on the other side of this next awful thing we're going to do, that's when we're going to get, that's we're going to get a handle on this thing. Like, the opening of the game is his daughter being brutally murdered by a soldier who's just trying to enforce, like, quarantine restrictions. Right. And to me, I think that, like, the game hinges on that. It's not just Joel's trauma. It's also about what kills his daughter isn't just a soldier following orders. it's also this notion that there's this greater good that has to be served. And if that means you've got to kill a kid, you kill a kid.

And 20 years later, he sees that choice magnified and doesn't let it go down. He might be wrong, but I was a little more sympathetic to the logic of it just because so much the game had hit that thing. Right. And it helps that the last of us, the first game is so much about that structural violence and like the failure of the American government to properly address this crisis. and the fact that this activist group has to pop up in order to try to deal with it. And that's the group of people that everyone's looking towards.

These are the kinds of themes that made the last of us interesting. It wasn't my favorite game. I certainly had some issues with Joel as a character. But I also thought that those themes were really compelling. And that's part of why I was so pumped about the Lasmos part too, because I was like, awesome. Like, we are going to get to go into Ellie's perspective. And like, she's probably going to find out what Joel did.

I don't know how she's going to feel about it. That'll be an interesting moral quandary for her to be navigating. She's probably going to continue to have to deal with various traumas and living in this world, but is she going to still want to save it in some way? Is that option still going to be available in some form? And really just what is the zombie apocalypse going to look like a few years later when Ellie's a little bit older? She's 19 in this game. So theoretically, she can make her own medical choices. These are the kinds of themes I was expecting to be in this game. None of them are there. Am I right? Would we say any of those themes are in the game?

It is so funny. From the end of The Last of Us, it ends on a reaction shot, basically. It ends on Ellie weighing how much she really believes Joel. And so you think, okay, we're going to pick up the action from there. Like, how does that deception resonate through the relationship? And that is a through line in the game. Oh, yes. To your point, that's not what the game is about.

Oh, Ellie's immune, don't give a shit. Like, that's not what any of, it doesn't matter. I mean, this is the thing that I keep trying to explain to people. So, like, in my review, I kept talking about the presentation of violence in this game and the fact that this game does a lot of emotional manipulation to make you feel bad about the violence that you're doling out on people. And we can talk about that in a bit. But what's really striking to me about it is that it's almost never structuralized or institutional violence. It's interpersonal violence. It's like individual grudges, like, oh, you did something to me or some member of my family.

family, and so therefore, I'm going to hunt you down. That's the theme of the game, as opposed to what I always considered the far more interesting structural violence themes of the first, the last of us, which were like, the government has failed us, human beings need to find ways to come together, we disagree about how to do it and what extremes we're willing to go to. But the last part two, I mean, it just doesn't seem like it's comfortable navigating that as much. Yeah, it is a game of endless grudges. And I think one of its real failings, I think grudges are a great theme.

I think revenge turning to ash in your mouth. I think that is a fantastic theme. I think you can tell a great story about that. But the farther you push it, the more the arc of it becomes about are we not now compounding tragedy through our own actions? Are we not taking a bad situation?

And we're not, like, we're past the point where we can get even. And we're now just digging the whole deeper, we're making the world a worse place. And if the story's going in that direction, it helps to discuss that. It helps to have somebody examine it. Yes. To have a conversation where the characters acknowledge what you just said. Yes.

Yeah. Even if the character is like compelled, like some sort of tragic hero, you know, the wrath of Achilles type shit, you still need someone to like highlight it. I was, when I was working on my review, it ended up not making the cut because who needs reflections on Moby Dick in the middle of a Last of Us part two. I welcome them. This is the place. But like even Ahab at the end, when the question is put to him, like, why the fuck are we still doing this? Starbuck basically, like several times, like three, like tries to get the quest called off. Ahab gives the speech where he basically concedes that he no longer even.

views it as a personal motivation. It is just now he is, like almost the hand of fate is working through him. He can't un-chews this quest for revenge. And it is, it highlights how lost he is and how completely imprisoned by this character are the people aboard his ship, the people in his orbit. And at least at that moment, we do acknowledge, the story acknowledges, Ahab has lost his reason. this revenge has transcended the personal

and has taken on the megalomaniacal and other characters can see that the last of us I think almost hits a similar pitch where you're looking at this as an audience member and you're like this is fucked up right like this is like what what are you doing and I think the game

encourages you at various points to do that and like have that moment where you the player are like sort of taken a back at your TV and you're like sorry what am I supposed to do now? Which is like, that's step one. But then step two just doesn't quite happen satisfactorily for me.

Instead, everyone's just like, let me rack in another round and let's go to the next level. And I'm like, maybe we should chat first. Yeah. And it's weird too because there are so many great chatting scenes in this game. There's so many scenes in the game where the characters are just hanging out shooting the shit or like exploring some abandoned houses together and talking about their feelings. but they don't ever talk about the revenge quest that each of them are on. It's like as though everyone takes it as a given, almost.

And that just slowly drove me up a wall as I was playing it, because I kept waiting for that scene. And also, I feel like I've played games that like hit these beats, where it's like, okay, okay, I see the character making mistakes. She's going to have some regrets later. I know that scene is coming. And there kept being moments where I was like, Like, all right, give me the crying in the shower scene.

Give me the scene where the character realizes it's all gone wrong for them. But, like, rarely are anyone's emotions stated explicitly? And so, therefore, you can interpret their behavior however you wish, which I think is also why some people are able to relate to Joel's choice and, like, infuse it with so much meaning. Whereas other people were like, no, it doesn't make any sense because I didn't like Joel as a character. It's like you get out what you put in the video game, but, and that's okay.

Like I, I do see the reading of the game as a whole where it does speak to someone, where you, you put in a lot, you put in your own meaning into some of these interactions, and you get out what you've put into the game. And there's something to be said for being vague as well. But it's also just undeniably true that this game performs so much emotional manipulation on you, and it feels so transparent to me that I just wanted it to be worth it. There is a point where you start going and revisiting locations you've seen at a different place and time. And you are made to greet and encounter every dog you murdered in a previous sequence. It's meant to be affecting, but like the third time they go to that well, I just start cracking up.

It's not like this is, it's funny. Like that is the real issue with it is that I did start. finding it funny, which is absolutely not... Oh, hey, Roscoe, what are you doing here? Not what I was... Not the reaction I was supposed to have, because, like, the emotional manipulation in the game became so absurd to me, but I started being like,

what is happening? Like, just losing it. So the reason why I talked about the dog scene in my review, which I think is, like, kind of tiptoeing right up next to the embargo by talking about the fact that you go back and meet the dogs that you're forced to kill. But it's because I can't talk about any of the characters. character deaths in this game, obviously. So I can only talk about the dogs. I'm not saying,

like, dog lives are the only lives that matter or something. But for the record, but for the record, you also do this with the human characters in the game as well. Like, any character that you've tortured or maimed or wronged in some way, you will get a scene out of order later where you are made to feel horrible about the fact that you did it, which again, I did not need, because I felt horrible the first time around. Like, I did not. need to like read somebody's personal diary later in order to find out they were a human being with emotions wants goals and needs you know i think maybe this is this is why i one of the reasons i ended up having such a low opinion of this game because it does pass this off as inside like wow

i really yes that that that person that being you killed uh wasn't just your enemy they had a life of their own before before you murdered them and of course they did like that's not news that's not Like, the Last of Us was similar. Like, this isn't uncharted where, like, it's just legions of henchmen. Like, it is a world full of people trying in their various ways to get by. And yet this game, like, keeps pulling off this trick where it says, aha, but you see, this person wasn't just your enemy. And then it sort of does. They're like, ta-da.

And you're sitting there being like, where was the trick? Where's the magic? Like, what's your point? Yeah. And that is the point. And so you wait for the actual point to show up. And then by the end of the game, you realize, that was it.

Oh, no, that was it. Yeah. The entire reveal was that repeatedly you will be asked to kill someone or a dog or what have you. And then later you'll learn more about them. And like, that's just the reveal that keeps happening over and over in the game. I wondered also if it would have worked if it were 10 hours long. Or like, maybe if it just showed. some more restraint because I think there is something to this idea of like let's humanize the

enemies that you kill. Like let's get to know your enemies better like as you go along in a game. Like there's some seeds there that I think spoke to a lot of people and it's certainly affecting. Like the characters are very well drawn. Like not just well animated but well written, well acted. You really feel for them when they die or at least I did, which is part of why I had to dissociate from the game and start finding it funny after a while because I was like, I can't watch myself have to kill yet another adorable human. Like, I just, I can't keep going like this game, so I'm going to have to separate myself psychologically from what I'm being asked to do here. But there is the seed there that I think works. And there's a version of the game that just shows a bit more restraint

or plays off the end differently or does something else with the discovery of that. I'm not sure what that looks like. Yeah, I definitely came away feeling like, if the game had just been shorter, apologies, there's motorcycles revving in the street. I definitely came away feeling, like part of the issue here is the game is interminable. And it's interminable in part because it's deeply unpleasant and intentionally trying to be. And so even sequences that might otherwise be cool in a video game way still feel like this. absolute death march. Intentionally, I would say.

Yeah, yeah. But it turns into a 30-hour experience when I think to do some of the tricks it has, you don't need to spend quite so much time, like just going through the rote procedures of and then stealth ninja your way around this base and kill these people. Like, you probably can cut some of that stuff out and get to those character beats and those big set pieces. So I think definitely part of it is just the sheer length of the game. I think this is an issue where the requirements to give bang for your buck as a gamer

definitely cut against the story it's telling. You didn't like all the collectibles, Rob? You didn't like collecting all the collectibles and leveling up and just unlocking cool. I mean, that's the other part of it is that like it's still an exceedingly proficient. technically game. Like, it looks great and it plays great. I think I enjoyed the combat a bit more than you did, but like the edges have definitely been sanded off the combat in the first, The Last of Us, which I found somewhat frustrating. And this one I found a lot more pleasant is the wrong word. But like, I felt more capable when I was taking on zombies and stealthing around

with regular Joe Shmo humans who I had to kill and feel bad about killing later on. I certainly felt capable while I was doing that. And that, I guess, is also part of the vibe of this game, is that, hey, you feel so capable. You're such a capable killer, but also you're a terrible person, and you shouldn't be feeling so gosh darn capable of murder, right? What if the movie X versus sever were really sad? Yeah, I guess. It is, let me ask you a question. Sure. How into the Uncharted series have you been? Oh, I've not played. any of them. Okay.

I had an ex who played some of them while I watched. That's as far as I've gone with Uncharted as a series. So I'm familiar with the whole Nathan Drake as a homicidal maniac who's very charming and we all just act like he's not doing the things he's doing. I do know the trope. Right, which, yeah, I definitely think that trope is a problem because I think Nathan Drake actually is just an action hero. And then when you try to, I think where things begin to go wrong, it's definitely

in trying to really interrogate what the swashbuckling act. It's like you don't need Indiana Jones to reflect on my god, I killed eight German kids on a tank with one bullet. Like, I don't actually need to see him like, you know, sitting up at night being like all those boys. But like for me, I think a difference I had with The Last of Us Part two is for me it feels of such a peace, not just with The Last of Us one, but just with stuff I've done. done through four uncharted games at this point. And so while I agree that in a lot of places the combat is pretty proficient, there's a lot of systems you can take advantage of. None of it felt particularly revelatory to me because the similarities between what The Last

of Us Part 2 does and what I've done a million times in other Noddy Dog games, there's too many. And so the impact was really lessened. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I guess that's just a nice thing that they're reusing something. I mean, we haven't touched on the crunch in making this game, but it's almost heartening to me to learn that the developers, like, may have used or borrowed from a preexisting system from another game series to, like, help flatten out the creation of this game. And I don't just bring up crunch as an afterthought. It was something that was also on my mind the entire time I played. especially given the length of this game and the lack of restraint that it shows with some of

the violence that it depicts. I know how difficult it is for people to animate exceedingly violent scenes. And so I was thinking about that a lot, the people making this game and just being like, was it worth it for them? Like, do I feel like this was worth it? And is that even possible for something like this to be worth it? But, hey, if they were able to cut some corners in combat design, that's almost good, question mark.

Yeah. My guess is they didn't, though, right? My guess is it's similar systems design, but like everything reworked to make it a little bit better. And it is a little bit better, but also at the same time, like in terms of stealth games and terms of enemy behavior, like here's what didn't exist in 2013. Hitman. Like there's so many games where you can sort of cite like, oh, like there's really involved murder sandboxes you can create. It's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. I mean, it isn't, it isn't.

I mean, it's like, if the game is not going above and beyond when it comes to, like, cool collectibles or, like, stealth mechanics or whatever, then the story is really the thing. And I think that's what this game wants to be. It wants the story to be the thing, which is part of why I was so hard on the story in my review, was because I was like, this is a game that very much wants to be saying something about humans and why they enact violence and revenge and what motivates them. and those motivations need to be believable. And the conversations that they have about their decisions need to ring true.

And by the end of the game, it just didn't feel that way to me. But I wanted to touch on something else before we wrap up, which is just again, the decision to sort of shy away from depicting some more structural forms of violence in this game. Like, this is a game that depicts a cult that has some bigoted viewpoints. I'll be pretty vague about how that's shown, but like they are shown to be transphobic, homophobic, sort of classic Christian right extremist cult. And like, there are some enemies that you see along the way in the game. But for a game that's like so interested in humanizing its enemies, it's almost like the designers

knew that it wouldn't quite work if they tried to get us to sympathize with like a horrific bigot. So like, there's just a few corners that they're just sort of stepping around there and just being like, well, that's not really a story we're interested in telling or even looking too hard at. And honestly, like for a game with a queer female lead, I just felt like that was kind of cowardly. I was like, you can't include something like this in your game and then not look directly at it. Like, don't just, like, sprinkle a little bit of queer phobia onto your video game for color. And then, like, just be like, yeah, but this game isn't really about that. It's really about this one person Ellie's decided she needs to kill, who has nothing to do with that.

And she just needs to kill them. And that's her journey. And it's not about the world or, like, the power structures that have emerged among these various human factions, which are, like, warring with one another for a variety of sociopolitical reasons. That's just background stuff. Really, it's about Ellie hating this one person. And, like, you can do that, man. You can make a game about that.

But, like, it just felt like a missed opportunity to me, especially given who the game's about, you know? I will also say here that I was a little bit uncomfortable with two of your, like, there's not many non-white main characters in this story. I was a little bit uncomfortable with the fact that the sort of lot of cultist faction that occupied like would huts and use like primitive weapons. I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the fact that the characters you interact with from that faction that become like named characters are Asian characters and the entire thing begins to play out a bit like

a Vietnam movie in some ways where like it did feel deployed in a weird way. It did feel it did feel odd. I think what was really strange about it was that it felt like colorblind casting a lot of times in this game. Like a lot of times people of color would just be a character, but that part of their identity wouldn't necessarily be shown other than like there's a Latinx character who just like speaks with a thick accent. Like there's, it's part of their character in that way, but it's like not a part of their identity, if that makes any sense. And I felt like in some ways, crudeness was similar. In other ways it wasn't. I can't really talk about any of the here related plot beats because most of them are in the second half of the game. But just overall,

it seemed like a game that wanted to do a whole lot of different things and in fact did try to do a whole lot of different things, but they just didn't quite all hang together. And if you tried to like draw a common theme or lesson, I think mostly that lesson would be violence is very bad. And that's okay. But it's so flat to me, especially in a world where, where, like, people are out here defending their lives in a very literal sense in the streets. Like, and you're going to tell me, well, violence is actually not the answer to all of your problems and you should, like, empathize more with your enemies. Like, okay, sure.

But then you're also not going to come along with me on, like, the people who don't see you as human. And, like, what are we supposed to do about those people exactly? This game doesn't have an answer to that, even though it actually asks that question. So, I don't know. I expected more. Yeah, I think. Violence isn't the answer doesn't really work in a world where clearly sometimes maybe it has to be. Yeah.

Right? Like there are bad fucking people in this world. And there are zombies. Yeah, exactly. There's some situations where we can all agree you just got to kill a person. Yeah. And so I think whenever you begin to turn toward this like, ah, the cycle of violence just perpetuates. And it's like, well, for some of these characters, they don't have the choice to break bread.

and let the past be the past. Like some characters will never be left alone, not because there's a grudge, but because there are worldview issues between them that are going to, like, put them at risk unless they put these people over here in the ground. And I think if you flatten that into a, you know, violence is bad. And even if you have to do violence to defend yourself,

it's still pretty bad. You still bear the mark of cane. And I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I guess the problem, though, is that you could argue the game isn't truly saying that, because what is it saying? You could say violence is good when you need to do it, but it's bad when you don't, and it's on you to figure that out, kid. Can I ask you one question? I don't know. Sure.

Is the game it ended differently, would your feelings have changed? I think they would have changed somewhat. There were a few scenes I really wanted to happen that I didn't get, and I've sort of hinted at some of them. And I also don't even need the game to have some big didactic message about like violence being bad. I truly don't need that. If it's just a good story about some regular people, that's cool too. I just felt like this one didn't quite work as that either because it's pretty uneven and just didn't really feel like it worked in that level. But yeah, I think if it had ended differently or maybe if just the second half of the game had been somewhat different than I'd feel differently.

For the first 10 hours, I definitely was like, I think we're going somewhere. And we were. Yeah, yeah. I think where my views kind of hardened were like in the literal like finale of the last act. When I realized there was not going to be one more twist, there wasn't going to be one more development. There were chances for this story to try and say something. And maybe it would have been strained. But I was still expecting like some sort of.

sort of reckoning with what had transpired across the last 30 hours. Yeah. And once again, the game kind of took a pass on that and plunged me back. And left it up to you to interpret, Rob. It's all on you to interpret. Yeah. Yeah. So once I was plunged back into this like ghastly, like, orgy of violence, like, to no real

purpose. Like we were now just repeating beats. I was like, okay, I think now I'm. I'm actually officially annoyed. Like this is, like now retroactively, that journey I thought I was on has become a great big circle. Yes. Yes. Would you recommend this game?

This is me attempting to wrap up this conversation. Oh, yeah. I mean, fans of the genre. We'll love it. What genre is that exactly? Games that do whatever this is? Yeah. No, I mean, I wouldn't recommend it.

Here's the problem. Even as a person who loved The Last of Us, though. You don't think it would maybe provide somebody some closure to play this game? I think it might. If you really love The Last of Us, I think this will be a lot more of the same, but also I think the thing that's missing are a lot of the things that made The Last of Us work, for me at least. So I think, like, what made you love The Last of Us? My guess is it is not in this game, even if large parts of it will feel like comfortably familiar.

I mean, I think that too, and yet clearly we are both wrong because there are many people, many critics at least, who got something out of this game. So who's to say? I certainly think that the vagueness and just the evocative nature of a lot of the plot beats and reveals, if we can call them that in the game, does allow you to put a lot of how you feel onto the characters, which is, you know, it's clever in a way. It's part of what makes the game work for more people. the fact that it leaves a lot up to you.

I think that's cowardly, but not everybody agrees with me, and that's completely fine. And hey, killing the zombies feels really good, man. So if you want to do that, that shit's still in there. A bunch of cool collectibles. Well, I guess I'm going to close all that. They're not that cool. I don't know, Ellie has a journal. I thought the journal entries were cute.

Journals are great. Like, every game should have a journal. I actually think that that's cool. and the guitar mini game, there's a guitar playing mini game. It's great. That guitar. We didn't talk about that in our reviews, but the guitar. The guitar scenes all rule.

It's going to be great. It's honestly, it's worth getting the game just so that you can play the guitar playing mini game and record yourself playing various songs. Put that on Twitch. Share those clips, everybody. I'm going to love it. The game's going to be worth it just for that, I think. I was sitting there.

I was like, I could learn to play this guitar in this game. You can do it. You can play the guitar in the game. Clearly it's the game with the year, just on the strength of the guitar. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Rob, and for trying along with me not to spoil this game, even while also talking about why it didn't work for us. It was much appreciated. Happy to start getting this out of my system. Like a poison that we must draw out together.

All right, great. Hey, I'm Jared Hill, co-host of the brand new Maximum Fun podcast, Fan Time. And I'm Trevelle Anderson. I'm the other more fabulous co-host. and you really should be tuning in. I feel the nausea rising. To be fan-tie is to be a big fan of something, but also have some challenging or anti-feelings toward it.

Kind of like Kanye. We're all fans of Kanye. He's a musical genius, but, like, you know... He thinks slavery is a choice. Or, like, the real housewives of Atlanta. Like, I love the drama, but do I want to see black women fighting each other on screen? Oh, to-da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na.

We're tackling all of those complex and complicated conversations about the people, places, and things that we love. even though they may not love us back. Fan time, maximum fun. Podcast. Ew. Hi, I'm James. Host of Minority Corner, which is a podcast that's all about intersectionality.

It's hosted by James with a guest host every week. Discussing all sorts of wonderful issues, nerdy and political. Pop culture. Black queer, feminism. Race, sexuality. News. You're going to learn your history. Their self-empowerment.

And it's told by what feels like your best friend. Why should someone listen to Minority Corner? Why not? Oh my God. Free stuff. There's not free stuff. The listeners of Minority Corner will enjoy some necessary LOLs, but mainly a look at what's happening in our world through a colorful lens.

People will get the perspective of marginalized communities. I feel heard. I feel seen. Like you said, you need to understand how to be more proactive in your community, and this is a great way to get started. Join us every Friday on Max Fun or wherever you get your podcast. Minority Corner, because together we're the majority. And we are back with one more thing.

Kirk Jason, you're back with me again. Kurt, why don't you tell me about your one more thing? Sure. So I almost wrote that my one more thing was like that I've been feeling kind of depressed since that's kind of at the root of it. Sorry. Well, that's okay. I mean, I think we kind of all are like not in a really profound damaging way, but just in a way of like,

you know, there's a lot of really awful things in the world that we're dealing with. And we're also, I've just been, we've been isolated for so long. I think it is getting hard. even though it's important to stay that way. It's been tough. And I've just been feeling really restless with video games. That's actually, weirdly, the thing I've been struggling the most with. Like, most of my day has spent practicing music, working on strong songs stuff and doing admin stuff related to that,

taking care of the puppy. Like, there's, like, practical stuff. And then there's, there should be this room for video games because it's not like I have that many. Like, I normally carve out time to do that. it's just been sort of like I can't get excited to play too many games. I'm still kind of like playing, mildly playing Animal Crossing, but it's really been tough.

So I found I turn on my PC, I have all these games installed, I'm playing through the control DLC because we're going to talk about control and like playing back through that game. But even that game, it's like kind of intense and I'm just sort of hard getting in the group. Good thing the last of us too is coming out to really cheer you up.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. No, I know. Well, that's the thing. Of course. Well, the next game you have to play. That is looming over all of this, is that being like, well, I know I'm going to play this game. I've been really looking forward to this game. I'm going to play it, but oh my God.

But you've got to recharge first, as much as you can. Yes. So really the main thing I've been playing, well, it's two games, which isn't really fair for one more thing. So I'll just say that the main thing I've been playing is Fire Emblem, three houses. Again, I'm on a second play-through as the Blue Lions, which I started. And then just sort of, you know, I'd play like 100 hours of that game or something when I beat it. So I played it as golden deer the first time. And I just came back to it and like, that was my, that was my tempo to use a whiplash term.

That game is my tempo. It's like mostly a graphic novel. I'm playing on hard, but it's not that hard. They've added a lot to this game in DLC. There are pets now, I guess, that you can give as gifts or something to one another. It's funny coming back to it now because there's so much new stuff and I didn't buy the season. pass, which gives you, you know, there's like new characters, there's like a whole new DLC storyline that I guess is pretty good. So I've been just sort of cruising through that

on autopilot, just kind of going around and talking to my faves again, playing New Game Plus, which is like a way lower key way of playing it. And that's really kind of it. And then I just will say, I know this is cheating, but I played a little bit of Breath of the Wild, and I played it on the TV. We got a new TV a little while ago, and it has the motion smoothing turned on for the switch. HTML input. And that game looks amazing with motion smoothing on. And I don't know, I don't think I've never heard somebody say they liked motion smoothing on TV. This is a radical take. So I hate motion smoothing. I'm like totally the person who goes to like, you know, your grandparents' house and the first thing I do and I'm a guest in the house. And I'm like, I'm sorry. But we can't watch this

movie with this turned on. I need to get into the settings and turn off smoothing. Because it looks terrible on TV shows. It's so weird when people don't notice it, too. I know. Well, and this made me think, I guess, so Zelda looks almost like it's running at 60 frames a second with motions moving on. To a pretty wild extent, it looks incredible, like especially the, like special effects when, when like a magic spell goes off, like the blue effect, when you crack open one of those shrine portals at the end of the shrine, like the shrine puzzle, and it goes kind of outward, you know, it looks so good. It looks like it's running at 60 frames per second. And the cutscenes look weird like they're running at 60 FPS.

It's really made me think that I think I'll see people say like, oh, I don't even notice 60 frames per second, 30 frames per second. And I wonder if they're playing video games with motion smoothing on, which really does kind of effectively simulate it to a surprising degree. I was like, this really looks like a different game. It almost looks like it's running. It doesn't quite, you can tell sometimes. But anyways, I just noticed that.

And that game is still really good. But I won't take up too much time because that's a cheat. And it's just one more thing. so we can move on for me. Yeah, I was wondering. It turns out it took eight proper episodes for you to fit two things into your one more thing. Right. We were like how long it was going to take.

I mean, I talked about control. I talked about the last one. That was like a six thing, one more thing. I know. What the heck was that? Four things. The key is to have your one more thing be a thesis statement. That's why I should have just been like video game depression. We can say that was the one thing so I didn't really cheat.

But anyways, that's enough for me. Okay. Okay. Jason, you picked only one thing, right? I did pick only one more than it is. Yeah, so I haven't been playing a ton of video games other than Trails of Cold Steel 3, which I'll talk about it another time. But instead, I am reading a really good book that I wanted to talk about.

And by the way, to those people who wanted to hear about Twitter drama, no, we will not be talking about Twitter drama today. Sorry, no Schindler's List talk today. But so I'm reading this dope book. It's called The Long Ships by Franz G. Benenson. And this book was written in the... the 50s. It is about a Viking odyssey. It is, it's like this swashbuckling journey of this Viking in Viking times. And it's, it's sort of like Homer's Odyssey, except it's Vikings and more modern.

Is it historical fiction or is it like based on something? I mean, it's, I don't know if I would even call it historical fiction because I don't know how accurate the history is, but it's 100% fictional. Fictional story. And it is quite a saga. So a little bit of backstreet here is that I found this. Obviously there's the Assassin's Creed Valhalla is coming out, and so it's a good time to like read up on your Viking stuff, sort of like how when God of War came out, and I love that. I wound up buying Norse mythology by Neil Gaiman and got really into that for a little while. But so I found this book because I was listening to a podcast with Michael Lewis, the journalist and author is one of my favorite authors. He recommended that and like said he gives this to people all the time. And so I looked it up and I was like, well, this sounds cool. And then I got it, started reading it. And, um, and, and, have just been really into it. It's like written in this really interesting way where it kind of zooms out and like three years will go by in a paragraph

but then it'll spend some time just like diving into some individual event. It's like one of those, like almost, it reads like you're reading mythology sort of, except it's a fictional story and like gets, you get to know these characters and care about these characters.

And it's, A, it's a fantastic story on its own. But B, it's making me really hype for the new Assassin's Creed. So first question, question is can you just restate the name and author, the title and author of this book? Yeah, it's called The Long Ships by Franz G. Bengson. The Longships, as I mean, the book. Second question is, is the protagonist actually like a modern day person wearing a computer that lets me travel back?

No, there's no apples, yeah, no animus. Because I'm not interested otherwise. Yeah, my, okay, does anyone wear a hidden blade strapped to their wrist? I don't believe so. But yeah, man, it's quite a story. It's like in the first couple hundred pages, this main character, his name is Orm. And you get to know him. He is like, he winds up going from England to Scandinavia to like the Caliphate and the Muslim Empire that was, I don't remember exactly, it's like maybe Arabia-ish. Yeah, winds up becoming a slave for a while for a few years. He winds up that freeing himself, he winds up on all sorts of ships and all sorts of adventures, meeting all sorts of captains. This is just in the first part of the book? This is just the first

part of the book. It's this incredible sweeping story. It's like, yeah, it's, like I said, it feels like mythology because so much is happening in just like, like, one paragraph will be like, and then Orm spent the next year rowing and slaving away. Is it a, is it a standalone book or is it like part of a series? Totally standalone book. This is, so this is written. That's also kind of nice. Yeah. This was written. So it was written by, The guy is Icelandic, I believe. And it was written in the 1950s. So this is not a new book.

It is not like a fantasy series. I believe it was originally published in 1954. Yeah, before, like having everything be a franchise. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You don't need a fantasy book series. It's just this one epic novel. He wasn't like trying to get this optioned.

No, no plans. But yeah, I mean, if you're interested in Vikings, if you want like some prep for Assassin's Creek Valhalla, Or if you just want like a good mythological story, I highly recommend it. Again, it's called The Long Ships by Franz G. Bankston. Nice. Maddie, what's here? One more thing.

Okay. So I got Just Dance 2020 on the Switch this past week because Ringfit Adventure still sold out everywhere that matters. And I too am depressed and would like to move around. And I'm really tired of all my exercise videos. Did you see that Nintendo just released a jump rope game for free? by the way. I did see that today. I haven't played it yet. That sounds amazing to me.

But I just wanted to recommend Just Dance 2020. If anybody else out there is also going stir crazy, as we all are and wants something new and a little different, I think it's really fun. And I played it with my girlfriend and we both super enjoyed it. I don't know how long I'm going to keep playing it. The bass game includes a lot of songs, but it also pushes the unlimited song subscription on you pretty hard. like there's commercials for it between songs that level of hard which is a little irritating kind of micro-transaction-y but also I'm probably going to end up getting it anyway so the joke is on me so yeah I recommend it it's a fun game you can play it with just one joycon and also there's an

iPhone out that lets you play the game with your phone but it's terrible so don't even bother with it and just play with a joycon because it works a lot better those are my tips I recommend the game to anyone and everyone because it's fun. So are you playing that like every morning as your workout or something like that? I mean, I just got it like two days ago and I, so far, yeah, but who knows? Who knows how long I'll keep up?

I'm just curious as to how effective a workout is because like obviously you're dancing to these songs. I'm just like, it's pretty effective. I own a heart rate monitor and I'm already in pretty good shape and these songs, I mean like they go all the way up to hard like intense difficulties and

learning the dance moves quite difficult. So you can really challenge yourself with Just Dance if you want to. As long as you don't care about looking stupid, which you probably don't if you're playing this alone. Yeah, if you're by yourself. That's the important thing. Exactly. Or if you're just playing it in front of your significant other who's also looking stupid at the same time as you isn't going to judge you. That's another option.

Or your nine-month-old baby who stares. My child stares at the screen while I'm playing RingFit Adventure. She's captivated. That's the only screen time that we allow her is when I'm working out. She can watch. I bet she would think the visuals of Just Dance are captivating as well. They're gorgeous. And the choreography is, the choreography is quite good, and I am not good at doing it.

But you can tell, like, some very, very good choreographers were involved in the development of the game. Fun piece of trivia is that just dance is the final game on the Wii. I think that 2020 is the one that came out on the Wii, the original week. Well, it's also on the switch. Yeah. So if you want to play on the console you still own, that isn't like in a box somewhere. It's so funny.

Imagine being, like, the programmer or the team at Ubisoft that has to port a game to the Wii. work on the Wii port and go through certification on the Wii. How crazy is that? I guess Just Dance is probably for the audience that still owns those old consoles. Yeah. Sure, why not? Yeah, it's a job, sure. Yeah.

Nice. All right. So I think that's it for this week. We will be back next week to continue talking about video games. Kirk and I will have played the last of us too. So we will definitely talk about that a little more. I am excited.

Yeah, are you? I'm kind of excited. It's so interesting. The Discord. has been so exhausting already. I've just been staying off Twitter. But it's not even out yet. Yeah, I mean, but I...

No one gets to be exhausted by the discourse. Yeah, we're only just starting. That's the most exhausting video game discourse is the pre-release discourse. I'm looking forward to it being out for a little while and then we can actually talk about it. Yeah, it'll be more interesting. But also, like, I don't know about you guys.

Well, Mandy, I know about you because you didn't really love The Last of Us. Well, Last of Us is one of my favorite games ever. Kirk, I know you liked it a lot too. So I'm really excited for this game for that reason. at the right least. I'm very curious to know what you too think about it. Yes, that will be fun to talk about.

But until then, I guess I will see both of you in a week. See you guys next time. And thanks again to Rob for coming on the show. Yeah, bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network.

And if you like our show, we hope you'll head over to MaximumFun. or join and consider becoming a member. Doing so help support us and gets you access to an exclusive triple click episode each month. Find us online at triple clickpodcast.com, on Twitter at triple clickpod and send email to triple click at maximum fun.org. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximumfund.org.

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