Triple Click - Elden Ring and Open-World Games

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

This year has seen the release of three great open-world games: Dying Light 2, Horizon Forbidden West, and Elden Ring. What do they all have in common? And what do they all do differently? This week, Kirk shares his new taxonomy for open worlds in video games and the Triple Click crew figures out what they like most in an open world.One More Thing: Kirk: Public DefendersMaddy: Elden RingJason: Steam DeckLinks:Steven Lumpkin's Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/Silent0siris/status/1498408412555747333Maddy’s articles about getting into Elden Ring: https://www.polygon.com/22948213/should-i-play-elden-ring-dark-souls-fromsoft-easy-hard and parkour in Dying Light 2: https://www.polygon.com/22941196/dying-light-2-stay-human-climbing-parkour-techlandSupport Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy a Triple Click t-shirt: https://topatoco.com/collections/maximum-fun/products/maxf-tc-tclogo-shJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ECOTAG: Kirk’s Open-World Personality TestVideo game open worlds can be broadly thought of according to three metrics: Emergent vs. Controlled, Opaque vs.Transparent, and Aesthetic vs. Gamey. IMPORTANT: These are gradients, not on/off switches, and they’re for categorizing the open worlds, not the games as a whole.EMERGENT→ CONTROLLED (How dynamic/simulated is the open world?)OPAQUE → TRANSPARENT (How mysterious is the open world?)AESTHETIC → GAMEY  (How involved is movement through the open world?)SOME EXAMPLESDying Light 2 = ETG (Emergent, Transparent, Gamey)Horizon Forbidden West = CTA (Controlled, Transparent, Aesthetic)Elden Ring = COA (Controlled, Opaque, Aesthetic)Red Dead Redemption 2 = EOA (Emergent, Opaque, Aesthetic)Outer Wilds = COG (Controlled, Opaque, Gamey (Jason convinced me))Gravity Rush: CTG Cyberpunk 2077:CTA (people expected more of an ETA or EOA)Subnautica: EOGSkyrim: EOAForza Horizon 5: CTG Divinity Original Sin 2: COASunset Overdrive: CTG Ghost of Tsushima = CTABOTW = EOGGTAV = EOAAssassin’s Creed = CTG (becoming more CTA lately)Ghost recon = CTAMinecraft = EOG Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

Oh, wonder how many goodly side quests are there here. Oh, brave new world that has such NPCs in it. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week, we talk about open world games. What makes them work as experiences? Do we want to be told what to do? Or do we want to carve our own path? It all depends.

I'm Maddie Myers. I'm Jason Schreier. And I'm Kirk Hamilton. And hello. Hello. Hello. Hi. It's us.

Welcome back. It's us again. Everyone out there should be extremely grateful that we have all managed to pull ourselves away from Eldon Ring to record a podcast. Barely. Barely. It's really weirdly true. I don't think that's ever been so true. All of us are a little bitter that we're not playing Eldon Ring right now.

And we're looking at each other's faces instead of like some horrifying gaping maw of some ungodly being. I'm seeing two smiling friends instead of the back of a helmet. Do you think I can get away with playing while we record? and like have you guys not know. I guess you guys would know because you can see me. Right, right, right. Like if Jason's eyes glaze over, he's like, uh-huh, uh-huh, then we know.

We hear him flicking a little too quickly. If I'm talking and then suddenly Jason's like, fuck. I may have done a call this week where I was playing while I'm a call. Wow. Were you farming or were you doing something hard? No, it's just exploring.

Right, right, right, right. Just clearing some mobs. That sounds great. Yeah. Yes. Fuck you're up. Should they just hear me scream cursing? This is a video game podcast.

You appreciate it. You love it. You're so grateful that we're recording and we're not playing Elton Ringwald and we would never do that to you. And if you support that and I know you do, then you should consider extra super double supporting it by going to maximum fun.org slash join and becoming a MaxFunnMundMendmer. And if you do, you will get access to our bunthly, bunthly monis episodes. Yeah, that's it. We love a good bonus. Monthly bonus.

My favorite Eldon Ring character is monthly monis. But our monthly bonus episodes. And this month, I feel like this is justice for Sweet Coden in a way, except it's like fun justice. Jason is going to finally watch Die Hard, which is a delightful film. And we are all three going to spoil it. We're going to analyze it. We're going to talk about how it's a video game.

Jason's never seen. it before. Kirk and I enjoy it a bunch. Going to be great. Early role for Alan Rickman. To hang out with John McLean. Early role for Bruce Willis. Well, early-ish. Different, different role for him. Anyway, so that's, that is our, that is our bonus episode this month. But today, we're going to talk about open world games, not just Eldon Ring. We will We'll strain ourselves somehow. No. We'll talk about open world games.

This is a way to have a second Eldon Ring episode, sort of. Uh-huh. So I was thinking a little while ago that we wanted to, we're going to want to talk about Eldon Ring a lot because we're all obsessed with it. We're all souls pilled. We're all fully souls pilled at this point. And also that the three big games that we've been talking about recently and that I've at least been spending so much time playing, good Lord, has been a real shift in my life this last

month. I kind of like didn't play that many games for three months and now suddenly I'm a just... And then all you did was play three massive open world games. Yeah, I am just a gamer. February was the month of being a gamer. Cheetah crumbs all over. I can see him like your face card. Kurt's entire mouth is covered in orange dust just on I recall. We just haven't been mentioning it. I have all my snacks right here. Mount Dew stacked up in the background. So I've been thinking about how these three games are different. I think we all have been because each time we're playing a one, there's also kind of we're simultaneously playing the one before it and comparing all three of them.

So these three games are Dying Light 2, Horizon Forbidden West and now Meldon Ring, all three open world games. And I would say all three very different games. So like the open world way of like describing a game is not all of that helpful, like as a term because so many different kinds of games can be open world. So I thought it would be interesting if we talked about comparing the three games and like what they do differently, what we like and what we don't like to kind of determine what each of us individually likes in an open world game, come up with some, maybe some new language or some new

ways of thinking about open world games. So I'm going to do a quick, this is a, I guess you could call it, it's really kind of a personality test. It's like Myers-Briggs for open-world video games. Are the games taking the test? So we're taking it on their behalf? Correct. Okay, great.

The game is taking the test. And I call it Eco-Tag, the Open World Personality Test. So the very short version of this, and I won't go on it at super great length here, because I think we'll all get it, and then we can just start talking about it. We all already get it, but yeah, go ahead. They're like, oh, ECO tag. Yeah, you have me at ECO tag. So those all stand for something.

Open World games can be categorized according to three different metrics that you can think of as kind of sliders on a character creation screen. So they're not like flip switches. You're kind of somewhere in between, but you're kind of more toward one end or the other. Three sliders. And that's Eco Tag. So the three sliders are emergent versus controlled, opaque versus transparent, and aesthetic versus gamey. So I'm going to very quickly explain what the three of those are.

There's one question that you can kind of associate with each one. And I'll just say right now that this is down on the show notes if you want to read along with it, if you find that helpful. So first, you have emergent versus controlled. The question there is how dynamic or simulated is the open world. So an immersion game is one where lots of different simulations are like interacting with one another. There's all kinds of stuff that can happen. Like meaningful day-night cycles where like things change, wanted systems, different types of AI, like friendly and hostile that you can manipulate, where you're making your own fun is kind of the quote versus controlled where the world is like more controlled, more static activities and things are kind of sequestered from one another in the world.

And the whole experience is more strongly guided by the developers. So it's like more of a controlled world. So that's emergent versus controlled. So that's EC. Then we have opaque versus transparent. That's how mysterious is the open world. So this is the second fader. And it's basically opaque toward the O end of things.

That's like you're not really sure how this world works. There's a lot of mysteries. The possibilities aren't just revealed to you. The map maybe doesn't show you all the information. When something happens, you don't always immediately know. Like a thing doesn't pop up on the screen being like, you've activated like this thing. And you have five minutes and. until the cool down, you're just, something is just happening, and you're like, why is that

happening? So that's the opaque end. The transparent end is like, everything is very clearly explained to you. Your HUD has a lot of information. The map has a lot of information. The game is very clear about what's going on. The last one is aesthetic versus gamey. This is just the open world, because we're talking about open world.

So in the open world, how involved is, like, actually moving through the open world compared to, you know, from one game to another. In an aesthetic open world, it's mostly. the world exists, you move through it, like there's still a mechanical aspect to it, but it's kind of just like, it's kind of there, you move through it from place to place, but the actual moving through the world isn't super involved. And then in a very gamey open world, it's like parkour, climbing, stamina bars. There's like a lot of like really active stuff.

You're kind of like playing your way through the world. And the world itself is like a big part, like traversal is a big part of the game. So that's gamey. So Death Stranding broke the slider. It was just way too far. Yeah. Death Stranding is definitely, I have that somewhere. So I have a couple of breakdowns.

So each one gets three letters. Like Death Stranding is an ETG, an emergent, transparent gamey game. And something like Minecraft is an E-O-G, an emergent opaque gamey game. And, you know, we can talk about all of these. I've kind of figured out what I think some of them are. But I'm kind of realizing when I'm playing Dying Light 2 versus Horizon versus Eldon Ring, they're all very different. Like in Dying Light 2, that's a very game. open world, right? And like the big part of the appeal is the parkour. Maddie, I really liked

your article about parkour in that game and how great it is. Yeah, where I compare it directly to Horizon, which in some ways is an unfair comparison because, well, it isn't, it isn't. Horizon changed the lot of climbing stuff and I think they wanted it to feel more like that, but I just don't think that's what's fun about that game, sadly. There's plenty of other stuff that's fun about Horizon. But the parkour in Dying Light 2 is so good that it overshadows everything else in that game that is not that fun. And like Horizon is an aesthetic open world. Like, it's more like you move through it to do stuff. And there is climbing, but the climbing is kind of linear.

It's not the same as something like dying light. And then I think Eldon Ring is interesting because I think that is actually mostly an aesthetic open world. Moving through it isn't really like this complicated thing. There's some platforming, but yeah, I'm for the most part. Yeah, like they're all somewhere on here. But it's really opaque. And I think that's the real magic event. Yeah. That's the part that's interesting.

So Eldon Ring is a C-O-A, controlled opaque aesthetic. So, Kirk, what's funny is looking at your list, looking at this metric and then some of the examples you provided, for example, Red Dead 2 is emergent opaque aesthetic, COA. Outer Wilds is controlled opaque aesthetic, COA. Horizon is CTA, controlled transparent aesthetic, Assassin's Creed games are what, controlled transparent gamey. Anyway, point being that I think what I've learned from this exercise is that I love opaque games and hate Transparency. transparent games for the most part, at least like transparent games make me have to tolerate the world and enjoy other stuff because like there's nothing that bothers me more about these massive open world games than being like, oh, 4,000 icons on my screen. Now I get to go like there nothing takes away the mystery and the joy of exploration like icons. And if you look at all these, if you think about games, the games that are all about exploration are always opaque because the joy, the purpose is to explore, Breath of the Wild, Eldon Ring. even Skyrim to some extent. Metroid. Metroid. Yeah, Metroid is a good example,

although it's not an open world. Well, no, but still. The games where, like, the joy, and that's, like, one of the main reasons I play games is for the joy of exploration. So the opacity, I think, is a really good thing out of wilds. Man, all these games with opaque world maps work for me. Yeah.

I think it's really interesting that, and especially to use these three recent games as a comparison point, that, yeah, the opacity to me, too. Like, I think that's something I've really learned over the past, you know, not my whole life, but like the past six or seven years, is just looking at this list. I was like, oh, okay. Like, Divinity Original Sin 2 is an interesting one where the world is very controlled, but it's also very opaque.

You never really know what you're going to find in that game, and you just walk around in the world, and it's like, well, what's this thing do? I don't know. And then you have to figure it out, and that's such a cool part of that game. Outer Wilds is such an interesting open world game because it's very controlled. Like, it's not emergent. You're not like simulations bouncing off of another, even though it is a big running Sim, you kind of just moved through it, but the

opacity, right? The like, figuring out what's going on is what makes it so cool. Kirk, you know what's funny? Of this list, so you posted a big list, Red Dead 2, Outer Wilds, Gravity Rush, Dying Light 2, Cyberpunk, all these different games. Of this list, every single game with an opaque open world is a game I've finished.

Every single game of the transparent game is a game I've not finished. That's so funny. The more transparent it is the less Jason wants to check off all the items on the to-do list. I get it, though. I get it. There's nothing I like, I am very much like a gamer who wants to go explore and be rewarded just by the joy of discovering things as opposed to a checklist, which I just can't stand. I'm just like, I don't want these four billion quests in

my journal to have to tick off. Yeah, it stresses me out too because I will often end up in a headspace that I don't enjoy that I've described many times on past episodes where I feel compelled to check off everything on the list and I end up playing more side quests I don't care about or like engaging in a lot more of a game than I even want to because I've kind of been hoodwinked into checking off the items on the list for the sake of getting that feeling of, oh, I'm really getting stuff done. But even while I'm participating in that, I don't like it. I mean, that also means, though, that some of my favorite games are the ones where the side quests are rewarding. Like I mentioned Assassin's Creed Origins all the time because it's relatively short. Most of the

side quests are actually rewarding in terms of story, but it is still a very transparent experience. You know exactly what you're getting from every side quest. There's still dots on the map. I just feel like Assassin's Creed games since then have become bigger and less rewarding for the size to a level that makes me feel less happy when I'm playing the games and spend more time with that bad feeling of just chasing the dopamine high as opposed to enjoying the actual experience. The side quest thing, like I really liked Horizon Forbidden West. And part of that is because I was following a checklist, but then, the story quest that I was doing, I was finding them cool and the story was good. And the story

was really the thing that pulled me through that game, in addition to it being a fun game to play. I appreciated your advice, by the way. It, like, helped me with my brain problem because I'm like, Kirk told me that I don't have to do any of the other side quests, so I won't do them. I'm only going to do the specific side quest that Kirk said I'm going to play. And it has helped me because I get into unfun modes and I'm sure other listeners do too. It's hard not to. So, Maddie, let me ask you something. I'm curious. this because so the other day I tweeted that you should have a journal while playing Eldon Ring and it was like mildly controversial for some reason and I got like criticism

and it was very strange so one thing that became this debate was like over the merits of quest logs and there became this argument from some people who are accessibility experts being like hey a quest log can be really helpful for people with ADHD and I found that that argument to be a little bit spurious and I say this is someone who is like very much Pro accessibility options like color blindness stuff and UI stuff and even easy modes. I think games like Eldon Ring could even benefit from an easy mode. But that argument struck me as a little strange for a couple reasons. One, because I think that a Questlog is a design choice that can really change the nature of a game for people who are looking at it. And two is because I actually think like, I mean, ADHD,

notwithstanding because you can make an argument that like for some people with ADHD, Questlog hurts them. But also you could say that like a Questlong, its existence also creates accessibility barriers because like if you have an obsessive, if you have OCD or if you even just have a personality where like. Like I'm describing where I feel like I end up in an anxiety loop of like I need to check off everything. And it actually makes it much easier for me to play the game if I can turn that off. Yeah. So I was actually thinking to that point, I was thinking, hey, why aren't there arguments about being able to turn off a Quest log? and like those markers. Like a lot of games offer you the ability

as Kirk has noticed over the years and preached to turn off the mini map to turn off parts of the UI. But like there's never really an option to be like, okay, I want the Quest log completely gone. I want like all the UI map markers to be gone. That doesn't really seem to be as much of an option.

I wonder if that will emerge, especially post-Elden Ring because I feel like Eldon Ring is, I mean, I'm sorry. We all stay in Eldon Ring, okay? We're all going to talk about it. Because one of the things about it that I'm loving so much is the fact that it has such a minimalist map. Some of the only markers you can see before you unlock things are the markers to unlock more of the map. And even then, the dots on the map, as it were, are like topography.

It's like, oh, there's a cave over there. Sometimes there's something in the cave. Sometimes you go over the cave and there's nothing there. And you're like, okay, it just looks cool on the map and there isn't anything over here. And that owns. The point that I was going to make is that I think by stripping those icons, it would be like an emperor's new clothes thing where like suddenly the poor design

of some of these open worlds is revealed because the brilliance of Eldon Ring is that you don't need any of that. You don't need guidance. You can wander and find something cool. Whereas if I was playing like something like Horizon and not to pick on that game, but it's just most recent in my head,

so much of the world. Or Dynes like to. Yeah, Dynes like too. So much of the world is so samey that I feel like I need the map markers to know where to go find something interesting. where to go find a quest. Because it's marked on the map.

Exactly. So I think that like really what Eldon Rings should be showing open world designers is that your world should be less vast and sprawling and more dense and interesting. And also vast and sprawling because it is a pretty vast and sprawling world. But yeah, I see what you're saying. Yes. It is, but it doesn't even feel vast and sprawling as a world. It feels because I don't know.

There's something about the way it's designed, the density of it all that it feels, even though it's a massive, massive game. Like I played like 60, six hours and I feel like I still haven't seen giant chunks of it if it's a massive, massive game, but it doesn't feel like a big ass open world where I'm just like riding around for minutes on end without seeing anything because there's always something interesting. And I think the density of it all is maybe it just makes it feel smaller than it is in a good way. It's such an interesting difference, just that there are things in Eldon Ring that are kind

of systematized like tunnels and catacombs and things you need to collect. And you kind of assemble your own quest log. And you could actually, maybe not now, because the internet is kind of unreliable for this game. But in a little while, you could just basically use the internet, use a wiki as your quest log to keep track of all the quests if you wanted to. You can almost do that now. I mean, it's like the guides writers out there are trying their damn this,

including my coworkers, to come up with their own version of a quest log for a massive game, which is a very difficult job. And there's an Eldon Ring wiki. Like there are versions of a quest log that are being filled out right now, and people are deciding what order they think makes sense to go in for different things. But the version of a quest log that's been most impactful for me is the one that I'm making myself. And the way that that motivates me to play is just subtly different, but like importantly different, the way that you're describing, Jason, where I feel really compelled to do, God, at any given point, six or seven things that I'm kind of keeping track of in my head. I need to go talk to him.

I need to go look into that thing. I need to, oh, I wanted to go back to that catacombs and finish it. I need to get one more thing to get to this guy because I think he's going to give me something. I need to go here. But it's like, I'm all keeping it in my head. If something bigger and more exciting comes along and I forget some of those things, it's not a big deal. And like maybe I'll remember them later.

It's just, it is like a player-driven versus game-driven approach to just information, to organizing your information, which it's really surprising how big of a difference that makes. Well, yeah, if the game did it, it would. be like this game this game is telling me what to do i don't feel like doing this and then in this case i think that's such a salient point kirk and i think i'm doing doing a not just keeping it in my head and i found that a notepad file is just really helpful in terms of like okay i have to come back to this place i have to come back i still forget to write things down sometimes yeah i know it's we do have all our like all the people i know where i can be like hey wait um did anyone do this

thing like can you tell me where i go yeah i've sent you a couple of map markers and like the social aspect of elden ring related to all this is very cool, but I don't want to derail you, Jason. Yes. Oh, yeah. We could talk about that for ages. We can hit that more next week for a triple white. We'll be talking about all of this for ages. But I think to your point, I think

really it's such a psychological difference and this is really where Questlogs become a deficiency in terms of the game telling you you should do this, this and this versus you kind of thinking in your head, oh, hey, should I check this out? Should I do this? Because A, it just

feels like you're doing it on your own, out of your own curiosity, not because the game is telling you it's important, but B, because it might not be important. And that's part of the fun. Like, if something was on a quest log, just by definition, it would be delineating to you, this matters, this matters, this doesn't matter, this matters, this doesn't matter. But part of the joy of this game is the mystery of not even knowing, like, hey, I glimps that thing in the distance. Is that going to matter? Is it important? Oh, hey, I rode all the way over here. I found this catacomb. Turns out it's got nothing, but this boss that drops an item I don't even care about. but the joy of discovering that was what mattered.

Or like, hey, I talked to this NPC 10 times, and she didn't say anything new. But finding that out was worth it as opposed to being told from a Questlock, keep talking to this MPC. Like, it's just such a different approach. And God, it's so much better than this game would be. Although, I feel like that is only true of a game like Eldon Ring that's very well designed because I'm thinking about some of the early experiences I had in Grand Theft Auto and, like, other early open world games where the promise,

was that you could do anything, but in reality, it didn't feel that way. And you weren't just naturally having these cool experiences everywhere you went, or at least I know I wasn't. Like, the worlds often felt very flat. Like, Eldon Ring, it's a good enough game that it truly does feel like everywhere you go, there's something cool to find and discover because it's actually all been manufactured for you by very talented people. But in these older versions of these games, it didn't always feel that way. And I used to go through a lot more. choice paralysis in open world games as a result of that problem, like, especially in GTA, early GTA, I'm thinking like three, two and three, where I would just be like, okay, I can do

anything. So then what am I supposed to do? And then I just wouldn't beat the game because I'd be like, I don't even care anymore. Like everything feels meaningless to me, which isn't for whatever reason how Eldon Ring feels, but it meant that for several years, I thought I only like open world games if they're transparent or if they include some type of story or something that I can grab onto because otherwise I'm like, I don't even know what I'm supposed to do in this game, you know? And I don't know if that's true anymore. Like, Eldon Ring is kind of proving me wrong. But for a while, I did feel that way. I think that Eldon Ring is just a different type of game and it makes up for it in other ways. So Eldon Ring does give you a lot of transparency and a lot

to latch onto when it comes to stats and equipment and, you know, all of that stuff. So you can kind of hang your hat on that. exploring the open world. And that can give people who want some sort of direction. Well, I'm leveling up. I'm like focusing on my build. I'm getting better equipment. And like that is just a kind separate, separate from the open world where I'm actually really fascinated by the opacity of Rockstar games. So those are E.O.A. They're emergent. They're opaque. And they're large, the world is largely aesthetic, even though you do drive around and getting car chases. And the opacity of Rockstar games, I think, is actually their secret sauce in a lot of ways. Like, I think that Grand Theft

Otto and especially, I mean, Red Dead 2, holy crap. That game, the magic of that game. The mystery, the strangers, yeah. Of the open world specifically, I should say. Like, we're just really focusing on that and not the story, which has got its own strengths and whatever. Sure. Just the open world.

The feeling in that game that you have for so long is, like, that you're really walking around in this unknowable, mysterious world where, like, you really just don't know. Like, why are the, why is the sheriff accosting me right now? Is it because I'm, like, covered in dirt? Like, do I need to go wash off? Like, what is the, what's going on? It gives you this kind of, it lets you suspend your disbelief a little bit and really get lost in the world in a way that's really cool. I think that GTA is like this too, GTA5.

There were so many myths and stories about not just Bigfoot, but like how the police work and are they racially profiling Franklin. And, you know, like all these things that people would start to try to figure out about the world. Yeah. And the fact that you even can wonder that. I mean, those are the more modern games that, at least introduce. the idea of, oh, it's big enough, it's technologically proficient enough that there might be systems under the hood that we don't fully understand. And that's part of the magic of it all.

And that's something that I think that people who try to clone GTA, like all of the wannabes who make open world games, don't necessarily get, and they need to make up for it in other ways. So we've talked a lot about this middle one, about opaque versus transparent, and I think, like, that's a really big one because, like, I think especially all three of us, just to our specific tastes, like the opacity, and then Eldon Ring, in particular, it's like such a like example of opaque game design done so masterfully. I think the third one, aesthetic versus gamey, is actually one that has a, that plays a big

role in the kinds of games that I like as well. Even though my favorite games, the games that are most special tend to be the ones that are mysteries that I have to solve. I do like a game where there's a really fun gamey aspect to moving through the world. Like Dying Light 2 I really loved and that's mostly on the strength of that third thing. Like it's a very transparent game, which I think as we've said, can really be. sort of tedious or it can feel like a checklist. But moving through that checklist, like running around that world, it's super fun. I love the emergent half of that too. And to me, it's hard to separate

those two things. What I really enjoyed in dying light too is like, sure, I know the tickey box on the map is where I have to go, but I can get there any way I want to. And I might just so happen to discover something cool on the way or just have a bizarre altercation with like either some civilians or some zombies or some other thing I can't possibly imagine. And that is part of what made that game fun to keep playing for me and isn't necessarily something that's true in Horizon where the story is the reason I want to finish it. And that's fine. It's just more taking me by the hand and telling me a cool story.

But dying light too, the cool story is I was balanced on a light switch, light. What do I call this? A light over a street light. and then like fell into a weird poison swamp and then a bunch of zombies nearly got me and then I like just so happened to run into somebody who was like going to eat me and they weren't to zombie and like I don't know like that that idea of this world being bigger than you think it is and weirder than you think it is what's really fun about dying like to Kirk I was thinking about Spider-Man which isn't on your list but oh I wrote it down over here is is emergent transparent

gamey right ETG or it's way no it's not emergent I think it's actually more control. It's more control. It's control. It's a CTG. I guess it's controlled. I was thinking emergent in terms of-superhero games like sunset overdrive, Batman, Spider-Man, those are all CTGs. Okay. I was thinking emergent in terms of just like you run into these random simulations. But whatever, yeah, that makes more sense. So CTG. So Spider-Man is is kind of the horror example of a game where it's just so much fun to swing around its world that you could just do that and be entertained by that and not even think about anything else. You just like swing around New York City and look at all the beautiful, the beautiful views of the skyscrapers.

Yeah, the CTG is an interesting one, the controlled, transparent, gamey one. So it's like, there's usually a checklist, there's activities all over the map. It's not emergent in that, like, you know, they're on a bunch of colliding systems. It's not a super simulated game. You kind of go somewhere and you do an activity. And then getting from place to place is super fun. Forza Horizon 5 is a recent example where it's like just super fun. The gamey part of it is the focus.

It's like as long as those types of games focus on that part of it, it can be really fun. And I think, so a thing to throw out here is that there's this type of open world game. And I would say the ghosts of Tsushima and Horizon Forbidden West also, they're kind of the CTA, which is the type of open world game that I would say I raise an eyebrow out the most despite liking them. Also like the new Assassin's Creed games. The new, the latter day Assassin's Creed games, they move more, they move a more, they move away from the gaminess and more toward the aesthetics. So you're not doing as much of the parkour and the movement stuff isn't as cool.

You're kind of just riding from place to place doing quests. And yeah, I think that that is kind of, that's been an interesting takeaway from doing this exercise. So there's this type of open world game where there's a big map. It's usually really, really beautiful. There's usually a story that's the reason I'm playing that kind of pushes me through it. And there's just a huge list of things to do. There's icons all over the map. Everything's really clear.

and then moving through the world is actually kind of just like you get on a horse and then ride to the next place and then do a thing. And in Assassin's Creed you tell the horse where to go. You don't even have to touch the controller. Fly as an eagle behind your horse. You just press a button and then you watch the game do its thing. Relax.

It's like the epitome of aesthetic and not gamey is to watch the horse or the camel. It's interesting. I think that like the aesthetic gamey thing, I don't know, Kirk, you have Outer Wilds here as COA, but I actually think it's more COG because like traveling around on the spaceship

and like jumping with like shooting around is more gaming. I think it's like that one's a little close to the middle. It could go to the way. I see what you're saying though. People always talk about podcast games. I think the aesthetic gamey

kind of spectrum is where you find the positive because if it's an aesthetic game that's very much a podcast game where you're just riding around. I don't know. I was getting some podcast listening done and dying light too. I feel like that maybe isn't the rubric

that allows for the podcast gaminess of it all. I'm not sure what does. Well for you, you were just skipping all the story stuff so that's all you would have well it's dying light too but I do think I think there's something interesting because I think that like there is even though you think

of the gamey or thing as like you would think of that as a more positive thing because it's like oh more stuff to do and like you were saying Kirk like you really enjoy the dying light to parkour stuff the aesthetic thing also has a lot of pros and I think of like Red Dead too like just riding around on the horse in that game and so many of the moments

in the beautiful moments in that game just would not be... I think Ghost of Tsushima as well, and Horizon, for that matter. I mean, absolutely. It can be very appealing. And while I think we're identifying things that we individually prefer, none of these things is better than the other thing. Like, I, for a long time, I always talk about how I love games that are really emergent,

where there's lots of simulation, which I do like, and I like poking. I like Hit Man, I like that kind of thing. But especially looking at this list, I mean, a controlled game where you're really getting what the developers wanted you to have, Outer Wilds is a great example of a game that uses control super brilliantly. So is Eldon Ring. I mean, Eldon Ring is not a super emergent game. It's very controlled. It's just like incredibly well made. And so you're having this like tailored, awesome experience and working your way through it in this, in this very cool way. I don't know. You say that none of these are good, bad, but I would argue that less transparency

would make most of these open worlds better, like fewer, fewer friggin marks everywhere. I think that's fair. I do think that there is a, there's a sort of an appeal to transparent games that I I want to at least shout out, because I know there are people who will just, they just like playing a game like Horizon. Or, I mean, I should say, not to project or imagine people, I have liked playing. Yeah. I'll speak for myself. Some people named Kirk. So sometimes I like playing a transparent game just because it's nice to like open up the game and be like, all right, okay, I'm just going to like do a couple of things and like check them off the list and get done with it.

And, you know, that can be appealing. And sometimes games that are very transparent also sometimes are opaque. like games can kind of switch. Yeah, you're the one who always turns off all the UI markers. Well, no, no, but also, like, thinking about Destiny 2, which is kind of an open world game, it doesn't really quite fit, but there can be a game where it's very transparent. They give you a list of things to do. It's very clear on your map.

But then also, they can introduce things that are opaque. I mean, Destiny 2, at its best, like when the Taking King came out and we were all on that huge wild ship and there was just so much mystery and stuff to do, it felt like playing Eldon Ring. Like, it felt like we were all solving a puzzle. And if any of us was playing the witch queen, I'm sure we would have lots of thoughts. I think that it actually might be similar as from what I'm hearing is that it has that same vibe. Yeah, I think some of the games that I'm finding I really like are the games that do both in each category really well. Like while we were talking about Assassin's Creed being like an example of a transparent game, like I keep citing origins, but it's because it has so many examples on both sides.

Like for example, yes, it's an aesthetic game. You can just ride the camel around. but the climbing in Assassin's Creed Origins is so, it feels so good and it's so satisfying, but it's satisfying for its own sake. Like you climb to the top of a pyramid because it looks cool, not because you need to do that to get to your next objective. But a lot of times when I was playing that game, I would specifically climb stuff to get to my next objective and treat it like a dying light too.

Even though that's not what you quote unquote should play the game to do, like you don't have to climb over anything to get anywhere. you can just get on your camel and ride there without touching the controller even once. But it's fun to climb and it's also very easy to climb, as Kirk says, but the challenge of it is like, well, what's the weirdest way I can get from point A to point B? Or like, oh, this will be the scenic route.

And I really enjoyed like creating my own quest for myself, which it's not exactly emergent. But I mean, in Eldon Rings, some of the stuff that I enjoy the most is the stuff that I would call emergent, like when a bear suddenly pops out of nowhere and it's like hilarious or like ambushes. But that's controlled.

those are often like designed. They were designed to happen to you. Well, you're right, but there are also parts of it that are emergent though because it's just funny like you'll just throw a skull at a guy or like, I don't know, things happen in that game that are silly.

Yeah, I mean, when I say controlled emergent, it's not like nothing unexpected ever happens, right, in a controlled game. Well, exactly. But there are a lot of moments in Eldon Ring that are like, like, the bear is invisible over here and like it's deliberately designed. Or like when I have this incredible moment

where like there were some butterflies and I turned around to like go collect him and the floor fell out under me. I think that that has happened to everyone who's gotten to the place you're talking about. It happened to me too. And I just laughed. Well, because it's just like, hey, you think you can go around collecting everything like a robot. Just walking up to cliffs, willy-nilly. It was so funny. But yeah, but like even then, I don't know, I'm a little bit, I just want to harp on this transparency thing just for one more minute because so many moments in these games, like I'm not even arguing against

the quest logs against the world map markers, but like just tapering it back, like moving a little bit to the left on the spectrum, like a little bit less. Just because sliding the slider a little over. A little bit because like even, all right, Horizon, again, not to pick on this game, which I think is really good, but I just played recently. You get to a new city and instead of having to go around and be like, hey, what are people saying? What's interesting happening here?

You just see four different green exclamation points and then you go up to someone and they're clearly arguing and also in addition to them just clearly arguing and it being clear that you're meant to go talk to them there's also a giant exclamation point over them. Yeah. No, I know what you mean. It's so unnecessary. You know, and it's so, that's such an interesting one just to focus on that one specifically. I think that's totally true. And it's a function of like the way the game has been aesthetically designed also because in Eldon Ring, there would just be one guy and like you would be alone in a field and then you would know you're supposed to go talk to the one guy.

Because they're not trying to make a... That's like a completely different world design though. Like, Elton is terrifying. Well, they're solving this problem that they've introduced by creating these believable cities, which are cool. I mean, aesthetically, they're cool when you go... But then which person do you talk to? You're like me and Sweet Codin, too, talking to every single person about where the item

shop is. So this is exactly what I was thinking of is Maddie talking about NPCs. And then Jason is insisting to me that I know exactly who to talk to and I don't, okay? I don't know who to talk to in Sweet Codin, too. I just don't. Maddie, you'll get it eventually. I'm trying. I'm trying.

But Kirk, that problem has been solved. Other games have solved that problem. Like, even going as blatant as to have a person come up to you and be like, hey, player. Or like, hey, you're the savior. Like, come here. I need to talk to you. Yeah, yeah. The problem has been solved in so many ways that, like, having the exclamation points everywhere is just like, oh, my God, do I really need this game?

Like, I just got mad of the game for telling me what to do. I was like, I don't want to keep talking to all these green exclamation points. Yeah, yeah. just sort of observing how it works. I'm not like saying they should or shouldn't do this. It also strips away any possibility of mystery and Maddie, to your point, like an Assassin's Creed game, because it's so clearly signposts where everything interesting is,

you don't even know. You don't have that sense of wonder of like, hey, what if I climb to the top of the pyramids just for the sake of it and maybe there'll be something cool there. Like, your curiosity is not rewarded. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's nothing I love more in a game than the rewarding of curiosity. And that's why Outer Wilds is one of my favorite games

among some other exploration-focused games. It's just like that feeling of like, oh, I poked around over here and I was rewarded for it. And the transparency in game UIs and icons and stuff just kind of kills that. It's just like, well, nothing, no need to be curious because I can just follow all these icons. I mean, if the game does that, they then need to lean on other ways

to make the game fun, which I would argue plenty of games do. There are lots of fun games that aren't super. Super opaque. Yeah. And Horizon is super fun. Yeah. Shooting robot dinosaurs is crazy fun. It's just the open world parts that like, yeah.

So, Jason, do you think that sweet code into is transparent or opaque? Hmm. I don't think it's an open world game, so it's not quite the same. Kind of is. But I think it's opaque, mostly. Like, there are no quest markers. There's nobody telling you what to do next. And that combined with the poor translation can be frustrating.

Well, no, I feel like part of how that game gets around it is by assuming that you're going to use a player's guide. Yeah, it could be. I mean, a lot of old games do that. And these games that we're talking about now would never make that assumption. I mean, they might assume you're Googling it. But I feel like something like Horizon or even Dying Light 2 is actually trying to help you by being like you don't need to talk to every single person in the town. You just need to talk to the people of exclamation points. They're trying to make it easier. It's just they're maybe making it a little bit too. easy to an extent. It's kind of a balancing act. Yeah, but

I want a game that doesn't present that problem in the issue. Like there should never be an issue of like, I get to a town and I have to go around and like there should be, I shouldn't feel frustrated by the process. It should be so enjoyable to go around and do something, whether it's talk to people or explore or

whatever, that I don't need the game hand holding me through the process because that's just a sign of like something has gone wrong. in your open world game design. But I don't know, Horizon rules. Guys, Horizon is really good. Yeah, it actually, it is really good.

I feel like we sound like we're being hard on it. But I do feel like the part of it that I like is that sometimes I do just want a game to tell me what to do. I think that's totally fair. I can't make a decision based on this list and be like, oh, this is the kind of game I like because it truly depends on my mood. And there are times where I'm like, I don't want to have to make a decision today about what I'm going to do.

I want the game to hold my hand and tell me, exactly what I'm going to do next and tell me a story while I'm doing it. And that means I like a transparent game. I guess. I just don't want it to waste my time. Like I wanted to be transparent, but I don't want it to lead me on a bunch of to-do list items that are filler and BS that is just in there to make the game longer and bigger for the sake of marketing and not because anybody enjoyed designing those quests or playing them for that matter. And sometimes I get that impression. Yeah, I think that's a different part of this. That is the problem. Really?

Yeah, that's a different. Not the transparency of the call. The quest design is definitely a different component of this all than the open world part of it that is on the rubic we're discussing. Yes. I mean, I think in the end, any combination of these letters, of the eco-tagged system, any combination of these letters can be a great game. Pretty much every game we've listed here is good. And I like all three of the games that we've been talking about. Dying Light 2, Horizon for Midwest, and Eldon Ring are all fantastic games.

And I like them all for different reasons, like you're saying. And I think it's other decisions about how you use that open world are kind of what make the game good. Does it have a great story? Is it super fun and empowering? Is it really funny? Is it really beautiful looking? You know, there's so many different things that you can add to any of these types of open worlds. And I do think that it's been kind of interesting to do this, to do this experiment and sort of figure out if we can nail this down a little bit.

So yeah, we'll put a link to this. I'll post it somewhere. And we'll make it so you can kind of look at this and make sense of it. And yeah, this was a lot of fun to talk about, though. I think this will be helpful when we're thinking more about open world games in the future. All right, why don't we take a break? And then we'll be back for one more thing. Hi, I'm looking for a movie.

Oh, I got you. There's that new foreign film with the time travel. There's an amazing documentary about queer history on streaming. Have I told you about this classic where giant robots fight? Or there's that one that most critics hated, but I thought it was actually pretty good. Oh, I know. The one with the huge car chase, and then there's that scene where... The car jumps over the submarine.

Wow, who are you eclectic movie experts? Well, I'm Evie Wadiway. I'm Drey-A-Clark. And I'm Alonzo Duraldi. And together, we host the movie podcast, Maximum Film. New episodes every week on MaximumFund.org. And you actually just walked into our recording booth. Oh, weird.

Sorry. I thought this was a video store. You seem like a lady with a lot of problems. Well, Manolo, we have a show to promote. It's called After Game Show. It's a family-friendly. podcast where listeners submit games and we play them with callers from around the world. Oh, sounds good. New episodes happen every other Wednesday on maximum fun.org.

It's a fast and loose oasis of absurd, innocence, and naivete. Are you writing a poem? No, and just saying things from my memory. And it's a nice break from reality. Is that a real I to say that? I don't know. It sounds bad. It comes with a 100% happiness guarantee. It does not. Come for the games and stay for the chaos. And we're back for one more thing. I'm going to go first.

My thing is kind of short, and it's kind of different, or it's kind of random. It's just a thought I had that I wanted to mention on the show. A little hobby horse I wanted to ride for a moment, and that is Public Defenders. That is my one more thing. The job? The job and the people who do it. Oh, I thought this is going to be a new Netflix show. It is not, in fact, a new Netflix show.

So, no, I am actually talking about public defenders. So if you've been following the news, in addition to all of the terrifying stuff that's happening outside of the country, Katanji Brown-Jackson, was nominated for the Supreme Court by Joe Biden. She is a first in a number of ways. First Black woman nominated to the Supreme Court. She seems to be an excellent judge. And she also is a former public defender, which is super unusual. I learned this when reading about her. I don't follow this stuff super closely, but I was just reading it.

And I saw a few articles. They were like, typically prosecutors are the ones who get posted to these positions. So it's a lot of prosecutors in the Supreme Court. She was a public defender. Then I just read a lot of people talking about public defenders. And as it happens, my mom was a public defender for a very long time. So I think very highly of public defenders, people who work for the city or for the state, and they just go represent anybody who needs an attorney.

And that's their job. And I just wanted to say, this is a thing that's always bugged me in it, that I really have never liked the way that public defenders are typically depicted in movies and in games and in various places. And I think about my cousin Vinnie, which is a movie that we recently watched, fantastic, great movie, whatever, like very, very funny. But there's the typical character is like the hapless public defender who's sort of worthless and, you know, overworked, which many public defenders are, but also kind of incompetent and blundering.

And then eventually the really great slick attorney needs to come and sweep in and save the day. And so very typically, like you'll hear, oh God, they're going to give you. you a public defender, you're screwed. And it's just like this sort of unfair trope about public defenders. And I just want to say that I think that trip sucks and that public defenders rule and that

any public defenders out there listening to this, you rock and you're doing super good work, you're helping a lot of people, and you're great. And public defenders deserve our respect. Hell yeah. And any filmmakers listening, stop skewing. Yeah, make a cool public defender character. Yeah, make a Netflix show. It's bullshit.

Well, Better Callsala is all about a cool public defender. but maybe not so cool movie kind of fucked up. But yeah, among the many weird ways that our justice system is depicted in film, that public defender's true bugs me. Okay, so anyways, hobby horse over with. Jason, how about you go next since you're doing something that is new? My one more thing is the steam deck on which I played Alden Ring.

So let's talk about Alden Ring. Nice, nicely done. So for the past few weeks, I've been using the Steam Deck. The Steam deck is Valve's new hardware. It's a portable gaming machine. It kind of looks like a supersized Nintendo Switch because it's really big. And it's actually weird going to the Switch after using, after you've used the Steam Deck for a while because it's so humongous. And the switch feels like this tiny, fragile little thing.

It rules, you guys. It's really good. It's like it's got some problems. It's like the battery life isn't great. It feels it's definitely coming in super hot. Like while I was testing it, Valve was sending us a new email every single day about patches. and stuff. So it's getting super hot. In fact,

when I first got it at the beginning of February, it was like basically incompatible with everything in my library and gradually over time it got more and more compatible. But it really rules. It's like this is the closest thing that I've had to like this super convenient portable PC that just plays any

possible game. Like I will never have to beg for a switchport of the newest indie because I could just get it on Steam and play it on the Steam deck assuming that it runs. runs well there, which most games have. I was playing God of War on this thing. I think I was playing at a 30 frames per second

because it runs in high fidelity mode by default. But I think I could have switched it to performance mode and run it to 60 frames a second. It's like it runs things like a mid-level, like a pretty powerful, decently powerful PC. So what happened this weekend, and I haven't even, by the way, I haven't even loaded it up with like emulators and stuff, which I'm very excited to test out

because this thing is just like a retro gaming dream come true. And it feels really comfortable, by the way. I didn't mention, but it's got, it feels good. The triggers are good. Like, everything's in a good position. The bumpers are a little awkward, but, like, you get used to them. The track pads seem pretty competent. Their back buttons, Kirk, you will be happy to hear.

In general, it's just like a well-built machine. And, like, unlike the steam machines and Valza, they're kind of half-baked attempts at hardware, this feels like it, like, really is them going all in on this thing. And that's why they're producing it themselves. not like working with some random PC makers to stick their name on this thing. But anyway, so this weekend. So I was going to my family. I was going to hang out on my aunt's house for my family, celebrated birthday. And so we all packed up there. And I had gone, I'd been pretty much playing

Eldon Ring every single day for the past like two weeks before this. And I was like, man, I'm going to go through withdrawal. I better download Alden Ring on the steam deck and see how it goes. So I bring the steam deck with me. I'm sitting there with my family. We're all just hanging out whatever, pull out the steam deck, load it up, and it runs perfectly. It's like, it's not 60 frames a second or anything, but it's running totally great. Like, I can go in and kill some bosses. And so suddenly, I'm sitting there, suddenly wind up spending the next, like, three hours. Because one nice thing about hanging out in family is you can be like, okay, mom, dad, take the toddler,

and you can watch her for a while. So I'm sitting there on the couch while the rest of the family is playing with my kid, sitting there on my steam deck. It was amazing. Like her first words. Maddie, I get plenty of adorable moments. Don't worry.

I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. But like, first of all, it's just like, spoke to the power of Eldron Ring that I just could not glue. Like, I cannot get away from it. And Valve made that possible for you. Yeah, it's this marvel of a machine. We're like, never before.

And I know there have been like portable gaming PCs and there are all sorts of like things like this that have existed in the past. but never before have they made it this convenient to just like log in on Steam immediately have this great interface that like works like Steam Big Picture Mode can play anything from my Steam library that works, which is most games at this point, on this thing. And it just works like a charm. And then on top of that, you can also go into desktop mode and like start tooling around with it like a PC and like add some apps and add some emulators and do all sorts of stuff with this thing.

So it's really, really cool. And I know it's like back ordered and people can't get a hold of them. So I hope anyone who wants them will be able to get one soon because this thing could really be a game changer, especially for those of us with small children who have to play games portably a lot. As long as somebody else is watching them at the time. Well, I also, before that, that was an extreme example. But before that, I did actually, there was one time where like my kid was taking a nap and then she woke up screaming and I took a get her. And so I was in the middle of the game.

And so I brought my steam deck to the living room and, like, was able to sit with her while she played. And, like, I was playing. So, yes, people, parents out there will know that portable gaming makes such a huge difference. And this thing, it's really cool. I really love it. I'm going to, it's going to be part, like, regular part of my gaming rotation, for sure. That story you tell us just so, like, when Breath of the Wild was on Switch when we were viewing the Switch and had to go to GDC. And it was that same feeling of, oh, man, I got to, wait a minute, I can just take this amazing, huge game I'm playing with me.

That's crazy. It's perfect timing. That's very cool. Nice. Well, Maddie, what's your one more thing? Okay, I picked Eldon Ring. I didn't realize how much we're going to talk about Eldon Ring on this show. I'm going to talk about something a little bit more specific with Elden Ring, which is if you're a person who's new to Souls Games and you don't know whether this is for you or not, and I've seen a lot of talk about this. I wrote an article about it last week at Polygon about how I think people should give it a try. I don't think it's Skyrim or Breathfell. of the wild levels. It's just, it's not that kind of game. At Souls games have a lot of things about them that are really weird and funny, in my opinion. There's a lot of almost Looney Tune slapstick comedy in terms of how many times you die, how weird your deaths can be. You have to kind of be

willing to accept that level of dying that many times and have it be funny to you as opposed to thinking of it as a failure. That's very much the mindset that you have to enter into with these games. I don't see it as like, oh, you just have to get better and you learn something every time you die. Like, yeah, sure, whatever. That's true in literally every video game. You learn something every time you die in Mario. You're already familiar with that.

There's nothing new about that here. I do think the mindset of accepting that it's kind of funny and being lighthearted about it helps a lot or it's helped me a lot. But the other piece of it that I want to talk about, so the first boss that you hit in this game, Margette, Margie. I feel like he's French. So I've decided his name is pronounced. Yeah, he's Margie.

he's he's the worst he's he sucks i've beaten him uh but i i don't like this guy he's very annoying and he is intended to be very annoying he has a massive health bar and this is one of these things that souls games do where if you run into something that's too hard for you it's actually telling you that you need to leave and go do something else and that is very counterintuitive like it just the game isn't going to tell you that but like what you need to do is leave and make sure that you get this summoning bell from this cool witch lady. Like, maybe you haven't even met her yet, but you got to go wander around. Make sure you find this cool witch, and she's going to give you summon summoning bell. It's going to make your life a thousand times easier when

you can summon cool monsters to help you fight. And you're going to run around and you're going to discover all these other items and, like, different armor. And you can, like, go explore the entire Weeping Peninsula, which is like all this area south of you without even having to defeat that guy. And there's also a way to sneak all the way around that castle, that very first castle and you can explore a ton of other stuff to the north and get even more cool items and become stronger and you meet NPCs and some of those NPCs can help you in boss battles. Like if you're nervous about summoning other real players, because maybe that gives you same anxiety, you can meet other NPCs and then those NPCs are available to you to be summoned

to help you out with the fight. And that is basically like once you got your summoning bell and you got an NPC to help you, boss battles is not that bad. It's not as bad. It's still bad. I'm not saying it's easy. You still got to, you know, be strafing and rolling around, but like it's not as bad. And I feel like the game, it doesn't spell that out for you exactly.

So I'm spelling it out. I'm telling you, you don't need to fight that guy right away. Well, it does kind of spell it out for you. I think it does. And I think that, like, people who, like, you need to, like, really read the visual language of the game. At the very beginning, the first thing you see is this dude on a horse, the tree sentinel. And if you run up to him, he will kill you instantly. And really, the game is teeth.

you with that first thing or even the tutorial boss like every single soul's game starts off with this boss that kills you and every single soul's game puts a super high level enemy in the opening area that's a really old that's right exactly yeah and the whole idea is that like hey you can run past enemies you don't have to fight this now come back later you will be stronger i think that's like it's like i think the game spells it up pretty hard even though it doesn't say it to you in words it does but it what i'm saying it doesn't spell out to you it doesn't tell you oh summoning is actually a really key piece of this game to such an extent that like you will be able to summon monsters that help you. So even if you're against summoning NPCs to help you or against summoning players, which many hardcore from soft gamers are against summons. Elden Ring is really like, screw you. You're going to like summoning. Like you're going to freaking like it because you're not going to be able to get through this without it. So go ahead and like it and get some help with these things. And I love that about Elton Ring. I think it's awesome. And I just, I want to encourage people to explore and not feel really intimidated by this game.

I wish more people had told me that about Souls games before I started them. They're not that bad. Like, I don't know. People get so weird about them. They're really not. I just, I posted on Twitter, I'll leave this in the show notes to this great thread by a designer named Stephen Lumpkin at Gorilla Games, talking about how like, despite the rep they have, these games are really not that unapproached.

Yeah, it's, they're not, it's just that they're different. They're just, they teach you things in a different way. Exactly. And on top of that, I think this game in particular, because there are so many things you can do at any given moment, you can never really get stuck anytime. Yeah. In other games, you can. You can get like 30 hours a game without ever fighting a single boss if you want. I mean, I think you can access the entire map without beating a boss. Like you can, I mean, not the entire map without beating a boss, but you can, a lot of it, like a shocking amount of it without beating a boss. But it's also like any time you end up in a new.

area and you're like, oh, this area seems kind of tough. You just leave. And then you find some other cool areas that aren't as tough and you find cool items. I don't know. This game freaking rules. I just don't want people to be intimidated by it because I think it's awesome. And I'm I'm, I'm souls pills and I just want a soul's pill more people. That's my Eldon Ring thought. I hope more people try it. Well, we're going to talk a lot more about Eldon Ring next week. We're going to do a whole triple play on it. That's going to be really exciting. Man, it's a good game. It's going to be fun to talk about it more, but until then, I'm going to go and play it, and I'll see the two of you next week. Hi.

Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show,

we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximum fun.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at triple clickpod. Send email the triple click at maximum fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist-owned. Audience-supported.