Triple Click - Final Fantasy XVI and Video Game Pacing

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

Jason, Maddy, and Kirk talk about the opening hours of Final Fantasy XVI, a game with some very strange pacing, and use that as a springboard to talk about pacing in general. How do you deal with pacing in video games when the player is control? And do big, emotional moments need a cigarette afterwards? One More Thing: Kirk: Beef (Netflix)Maddy: Ender’s Game by Orson Scott CardJason: Nintendo DirectLINKS:Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy Triple Click Merch: https://maxfunstore.com/search?q=triple+click&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring, hang on, let me just get the flow right on that one. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week we are talking about pacing. You know those moments when you've just experienced an earth-shattering set piece, and then suddenly you screech to a halt because you have to like find a necklace that fell down a well or whatever. I'm Maddie Myers. I'm Jason Shrier, and I'm Kirk Hamilton and hello. Hello.

We're back. Hey, we're back. We are back. After a little break, we're back. After a little break for some travel. But it was mainly for Mario. We didn't need to take a break. We just needed everybody to hear about the 1995 Mario movie.

That was the main thing we were doing then. Just to share some old thoughts on a very strange movie. That's right. Yes, that was our summer vacation. We actually all just spent rewatching the, the 1985 Mario movie. Yeah. It's over and over and over. Speculating about what it would be like. if dinosaurs didn't become oil and we had to come up with alternate fuel sources.

These are things that the Mario movie had to figure out. And if you enjoyed that little bonus episode, you might be thinking, wow, what if I had one every single month? And also for all the past months that Triple Click has existed on Maximum Fun. Well, you can. Wish granted, just go to Maximumfund.org slash join and you can become a member and get access to all of our monthly book. bonus episodes where we talk about movies and video games and TV shows and our personal lives

and goodness knows what else. This month we're going to record a bonus episode of Beans cast where we spill the beans about succession all four seasons of a thrilling show with twists and turns and terrifying import for the media industry, at least in the in fiction universe of Succession, but also maybe kind of real life because it's like sort of based on the Murdoch family and things. So that'll be this month's. But yeah, go to maximum fun.com. Join, become a member. Yeah, go do that. Support us. Support our wonderful, wonderful ad-free show. That's the pitch. What do you guys think? Should we move on? Great. Okay. Jason, what are we

talking about today? You covered it. You covered the whole thing. Before we get it to the episode, Kirk, do you want to tell everybody where you've been for the last two weeks? Oh, man. Yeah, I've been in Australia. I visited Australia. Down and up. I was actually flown to Australia by the hosts of this wonderful Australian podcast, Chat 10 Looks 3, Annabelle Crabbin, Lee Sales, who are personal heroes and now just friends. They're not just my buds. We went and hung out in Australia, which is very cool. They are these amazing ladies who make a show and really like strong songs, so they flew me out. Me and Emily, actually, which was really cool. And we did a live show

in Sydney for a whole bunch of people, and it was really exciting. And then we went on to tour Australia just on our own, just as tourists. And we went to Cairns in Far North Queensland. We saw crocodiles. We snorkeled on the Great Barrier Reef. Went to Melbourne, really cool city. Sydney is a really cool. It was amazing.

Australia is really cool. I think the two things I will point out about Australia that people who haven't been there might not know, who live in America is. So one is, they drive on the left side of the road. And as a result, of course, you know, you would imagine, okay, yeah, that

the steering wheels on the other side of the car and all of that. But also when you're walking as a pedestrian, everybody walks on the left side. I know. It's so weird. It's very hard to adjust to. So that was one thing. I've only been to the UK but had the same experience. I would imagine it's the same thing.

That and also looking both ways when you cross the street, I would just look both ways repeatedly and be like, I don't know, I don't know where the cars are coming from. They could come from any direction. That's weird. So can you make rights on red or laps on red? You make left some red. Everything is backwards. It's so weird.

And yeah, we felt in constant perilous pedestrians because you're never looking the way you should be looking. So there's that. And then one other pervasive thing that I noticed is that when you're getting food at a restaurant, instead of saying for here or to go, they say have it here or take away. Always. It's have it here or take away. You say, oh, we'll have it here. I'll have it here, I guess. And that is a little Australiaism.

That sounds so casual. We'll have it here. It is. What about Brecky? Yeah, do they say Brecky? They say Brecky all the time. They do say Brecky. There's a lot of, you know, just terms for things, you know, like different types of sandwiches

that have different kinds of names. You have to kind of deduce what things are. But, man, I got to say, Australia is a wonderful place. An amazing country, it is just really like I wanted to move there after visiting. Melbourne is such a cool city. And they just, I don't know, they have a lot of stuff figured out that we have not figured out in America. Way more kangaroos than we have for one. We haven't figured that out at all.

Way more kangaroos and crocodiles. I saw a spider that freaked me the fuck out. The biggest spider I've ever seen in my life. No, that wasn't because... They got some real scary animals down there, right? They let all the scary ones. They have scary animals, but they have scary animals, but way fewer guns. So I ask you, which is the more dangerous country to be in?

Anyways, I loved Australia. I am extremely jet-lagged and feel crazy right now. So if I say anything, I'm kind of on autopilot, and if I'm kind of on autopilot, and if I say anything weird, it's because I'm so jet-liked, so apologies for that in advance. All right. Carrie Cabotty, today we're going to talk about pacing in video games. And pacing, I think, is a really interesting topic to dive into. And I've been thinking about it a lot since playing through all of Final Fantasy 16,

the new video game from Square Enix that came out last week. And so what does pacing mean in a video game? And what even is pacing in a video game when you can kind of play at your own pace? What does that mean exactly? It's an interesting question, and I think it's something we think about a lot more when it's like when we're talking about big cinematic experiences such as Final Fantasy 16, where you can't really play at your own pace. A lot of the pace is set to you by the game itself. So we're going to talk about 16 a little bit. I know you guys have just kind of dabbled with it, so we're not. I think next week we'll talk about the game itself more in depth. And we can talk about pacing in some other games and some other kind of thoughts that we have on the. the concept in general. But I was thinking about this because in Final Fantasy 16, there are specific

parts that you guys haven't reached yet that just kind of slow down the pace of the game in a really radical way. And I'll give you an example. So there are, the game is essentially divided into three different sections. There are these kind of high intensity action sequences that are one kind of section of the game where you are dropped into a level and you have to fight your way through and then it always ends in a boss and cutscenes and stuff. Then there are the more open world sections, which are kind of the big open fields, and there's like a lot of,

you can revisit them, and there's fast travel points and side quests and stuff. And then the third is your hideaway, which is your kind of home base in the game that you guys, I don't think have gotten up to yet. But what happens is these really, these high intensity action sequences are always really cool.

They're full of spectacles. and big explosions and cutscenes, cutscenes that a reviewer might call bombastic, if they were using the word incorrectly. And in fact, did. I saw quite a few reviews calling Final Fantasy 16 bombastic and in a completely incorrect use of that term. But we won't get into that.

We'll talk about the pacing instead. But so what happens is there's a lot of like momentum in those scenes, a lot of story developments, a lot of twist and turns and big action scenes and stuff. And then a lot of the times what this game will do is it'll then just like Crete like like slam the brakes on the momentum train and be like and now you have to spend the next hour or so go doing like mundane side quests. Like there's one section where you have to go help this girl named mid. Yes, mid. You have to go help her.

She's not mid though. Don't worry. She's not a mid character. You have to go help her like assemble. parts for some contraption that she's working on. And that essentially means doing like 10 different fetch quests in a row. Sounds pretty mid to me, but okay. It does sound like, yeah, I think the character isn't mid, but what she asks you to do is pretty mid. And it got me thinking, and the reason I bring that up is because it got me thinking a lot about the purpose of pacing like that. And sometimes in some games,

the purpose is just to kind of artificially extend the length of a game. But I think also sometimes it's deliberate. It's like we kind of we had you on this high of this big action moment. Your adrenaline is rushing and we want to kind of take a step back and let you have a breather moment where maybe you're doing something that isn't quite as interesting or fun, but it's kind of a lull in the action. It's a little, it's a chance for you to pause before you get on to the next big flashy scene. And so I'm curious, I mean, have you guys experienced stuff like that in games? What are your thoughts and kind of like games that force you to slow down? Even if that slowing down is also kind of boring.

Have you guys dealt with that? What do you guys think of that concept in general? Well, I want to talk about Final Fantasy 16 a little bit more right off the back because I do think the pacing at the beginning of the game is very strange. And Kirk, I know you're far enough to have experienced at least some of the things that I'm going to refer to. So here's kind of my spoiler-free run-down of like the first couple hours. So you start out as an adult man and then you get flashback to your youth and you meet a bunch of teenage characters. You're a teenager and you do a tutorial where you learn how to use your sword and then you go back to being an adult again.

I thought it was odd to start the game with that really short section where you're an adult, like super short. And then you're a kid for a really long time for like that whole tutorial. And at that point I was like, just start me as a kid. I'm fine with it. I get that I'm going to grow up later. I know I'm on the box and I'm an adult. I'm aware of how video games work. But it really weirded me out.

And, like, Jason, I kind of want to hear from you about, like, just the idea of flashbacks. I'm pretty resistant to them. And it's probably because I had a screenwriting teacher in college who told me that flashbacks should really be used sparingly. So anytime a video game uses time in an interesting way or flashbacks right out of the gate, I'll just immediately be like, why is this happening? What is the decision here? Is this a game about time? Or is this just the game not knowing how to teach?

me how to use my tools and when, when to introduce a tutorial is always something that's really hard to figure out how to do in a game. I understand like when I'm an adult Clive, I know how to do everything. So they need me to be a little, little baby so that then it's not weird that I'm learning how to use my magic powers. But it did immediately take me out of it. It did feel like hitting the stop, hitting the brakes suddenly in the way that you describe Jason. But maybe that's just me. Kirk, you look like you have thoughts on this. What do you think about flashbacks? Yeah. Well, I think this was just, I think structurally the introduction to this game works similar to those in Medias,

res TV show or movie beginnings where, you know, you start in the middle of an action sequence, something unbelievable is happening, somebody, a gun fires and you don't see whether they were hit, and then it cuts to, you know, three weeks earlier. I think that was the sense that I got from the beginning, because it starts with Clive and his team in the middle of this unbelievable battle. I mean, really, it starts with like basically a rip-off of the Balrog fight from two towers where these two giant gods are like fighting one another, and then it cuts to Clive as an adult

and this incredible battle sequence where these huge creatures are fighting in you, it's really exciting and like visually spectacular, and I think by beginning the game that way, it just pulls you in with incredible spectacle at the very beginning. And then they flash back and they kind of cool things off so they can be like, okay, here's actually who's who, here's the relationship between Clive and his family,

here's the girl who's a ward that they're keeping, and you kind of get this slower pace. I mean, I get all that. I just felt like the beginning was so short that it was very weird. But maybe it's just me, and I'm crazy. I'm willing to accept that. No, I mean, I think the effectiveness is another question. I just think that that's what they were kind of going for,

was like to throw you into the deep end and show you a bunch of spectacular stuff and then flashback. It's interesting with the tutorial question to the bigger question of pacing, because they do perform the tutorial as a training sequence, where you're studying with the kind of head knight and he's actually showing Clive how to do his different moves. And then it's kind of revealed over the course of the fight that actually Clive is a really good fighter

and he's just been like promoted to the best position. So he doesn't even need to be having these things explained to him. The game actually could just cut that out. Like while it is hard to work in a tutorial to the narrative, there are plenty of games where it's just you're in the middle of a fight and little pop-ups come up and say to do an attack, press square. And he press square and he does the attack. That would have worked too.

I agree. I actually think the beginning of the game is pieced pretty well, other than that weird Balrog fight that you described, Kirk, which is presented with no explanation for the first 30 seconds inexplicably. I found it very odd. Well, I started to figure it out. So I think I understand what's happening there because I have been learning a lot of the lore and the backstory behind these scenes as I watched them, which is actually a very interesting

thing about this game. So as you watch these cutscenes at the beginning, a lot of the beginning of the game is cutscenes. You can pause at any moment. Jason, this is something you talked about whenever that was two weeks ago. What's the system called? Active time lore. How could you forget the phrase active time lore?

I knew it was something related to lore. It's so obvious. So to explain to anybody who doesn't know what this is, you pause the game and you can press the sort of trackpad button on the PS5 controller and you get a little pop-up with explanations for the characters and concepts that are being discussed or shown in the scene. And it's really cool. I really find it very useful. But in terms of pacing, just to keep us on target. Oh, yeah. I'm following. It really affects the pacing because the way that information is doled out in especially some kind of dense fantasy setting like this is a really important

part of the pacing. And when it's done well, you're kind of in the dark until you don't need to be in the dark anymore. Like you watch and you're like, wow, this is a lot of names and concepts and things, and I don't know what they are. And because they're being introduced to you at a very controlled rate, you know, in a movie or a TV show or something, you know, if it's done well, it's kind of cool. It's mysterious. You're kind of confused. And then over the course of the story, you come to understand what things are and then kind of realize,

oh, that's what they were talking about back then. In this game, it's very different because you're getting that same kind of immersion where you're just thrown into the deep end. But you can, at your own speed, pause it, and then read up. on what everyone is talking about, which makes for a very different experience. It was a very different experience for me watching this than watching the beginning of Game of Thrones, the series, which was my introduction to that world. And this does have a lot of parallels with Game of Thrones, but it would have been, to pick a specific example, it would have been really interesting if in Game of Thrones you're watching, and when Theon Greyjoy first comes on the screen,

you could just pause it and the little thing would come up and it would say, this is Theon Grayjoy. He is one of the children of House Greyjoy who were at war with the Starks. He was taken as a ward. Like, that means this, and this is the history. And then everything where they're ever talking about, you know, the Ironborn or whatever, and they're talking about House Greyjoy, you would then have all this understanding. The show doesn't do that. And as a result, the writing lands really differently.

And it takes you a little while to figure out more organically, Theon's role. So everything in this game kind of works that way. And it really affects the narrative pacing that you can pause and look at that. And then to get back to that Phoenix fight from the beginning, I now know like what the Phoenix is, what that means because I can pause it and go read about the importance of this with the family, that this is like this creature that can be summoned, that his younger brother controls. And even that there was some great failure that the Phoenix died or something. And I'm guessing that's what I saw at the beginning. And I know that Clive was responsible for it. So because of all this lore that I'm getting, I'm able to actually piece together the story much, much more than I would have been able to if I were just watching it.

Well, so, okay, so what I was going to say before all that is that that is a weird thing because it's actually explained at the end of the flashback. So like two hours into the game. It's not something that needed to be teased because it happens two hours into the game. And then the teaser you talked about before Kirk with the war is a much more effective in media's res opening, I think at least. And I think the flashback is paced pretty well. There isn't quite as much monotonous tedium as there is a little bit later in the game. But I mean, more broadly, I think all of these cinematic games, or even we could talk about the specific part that the three of us have played, because a lot of it is watching and in a game, part of the pacing question and part of kind of designing the flow of a game from a grand perspective is like, how much of it are you playing and how much it are you watching? And definitely my, I was a little bit kind of, I don't know about off put, because I like the cut scenes in this game, but I was definitely surprised. when I first played those first couple hours,

how much it's probably like a solid 50% watching versus playing in those opening hours of the game. Yeah, I was pretty surprised by that too. And then I was, I know we're not going to talk about the combat that much, but it's so good in this game. And they delay that gratification for so long. Like, Kirk, I don't even think you're at the cool parts yet, but it gets so freaking cool.

And like when finally you start fighting big bosses and like seeing big splashing moves. Like it feels like devil may cry. It feels like Bayonata, some of my favorite games, combat wise. And I'm like, okay, now I'm in it. But when I was still in the Game of Thrones of it all, I was like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'm with this, which I do consider a pacing thing, especially given how much we've talked about how much the beginning of a game matters

and how so many people don't beat games. A lot of people will just play the first five hours or first 10 hours, and then that'll be their memory of the game forever. And so if you don't have a really great opening, it's just, it's surprising. I was surprised. I was surprised that this opening was so meandering, at least in my view. Like, it wasn't just that you watch the opening. It was that it kind of wanders around.

It's like, I don't know, read the act of time lore, Maddie. Like, take a seat. Chill out. Read a book. Flip to the front of the book where there's a picture of the map and then flip back and back and be like, oh, that was the name of the place on the map at the beginning of the book. That's what it reminded me of. Yeah, there's this interesting pacing question, or the fundamental pacing question for video games is how do you control pacing in an artistic medium where the player has so much control?

And there are a lot of different games that answer that question differently. In this case, yeah, the only thing in these opening hours anyways that feels specific to games is the active time lore because that is like changing the pacing, because like I was saying, it changes the pace of the kind of information. that I'm taking in, and then also just causes me to pause a lot and kind of slow down some of those sequences. But it's super different from something like Zelda. I played a lot of Tears of the Kingdom on my trip and was struck by the way that that game is paced or not paced. It's paste however you want it to be. I found that I, there was a period where I was playing and I was like, okay, I'm just going to do a bunch of story stuff. So I went and did, you know, one of the main dungeons. And then I found the master's sword. And I like did just a whole bunch of story sequences. I went in

track down a bunch of those flashbacks that you can go, kind of actively go find, the dragon tears. And so for that period of time, for those few hours, it was like, okay, a lot of story, just go, go, go. But then I tend to control the pacing myself in games like that, where I'll say, well, okay, that was a lot of story. Now I'm just going to go do shrines and explore and just find stuff. So I'm totally in control of the speed, which is cool.

I mean, I really like that and works really well in a game as well made is Tears of the Kingdom, but it's just such a different thing from something like Final Fantasy. It sounds like these types of sequences are in FF16. Yeah, I mean, with Zelda, we're talking about a different beast entirely. It's an open world game that never really slows down and never really asks you to do. You do set your own tone. I think for Final Fantasy 16, other comparison points might be like a god of war or an uncharted four or something, any uncharted game, or something like that.

And I was actually thinking to get at the original point. that I brought up. I was thinking a lot about an uncharted game or a last of us done any naughty dog style game and how that approaches the kind of like, all right, we just had a big intense emotional moment or a big intense action scene. We want to

take a step back and let the player breathe a little bit and how that can be effective in certain ways. But I think where Final Fantasy 16 really fails is that instead of kind of doing that in a way that I don't know, doesn't ask that lets you, I think,

It doesn't really let you breathe. It's almost counterintuitive when it's asking you to go around the world and do kind of fetch quest because it's not actually letting you breathe. It's making you do chores. It's as if we said like, I don't know, we just had this intense emotional moment go do the dishes or something like that instead of like go sit on the couch. It's like you know how there's the trope of like after sex you need a cigarette. Like instead of that, it's like you need to do a fetch quest. After sex you have to go mow the lawn for a while. Yeah.

Even that is like, is a bad comparison because fetch quests are like actively annoying, whereas like, Moin Milan can be a little satisfying, but like going and collecting three different objects by like going up to them on the floor and holding X down. It's just like active and active, like tedium. I've only done one fetch quest in Final Fantasy so far, but I was surprised by how low impact it was. And it's kind of sad to hear that they are really just pressing X while you're facing a person.

Do they get any more interesting? No, but it's worth noting that this is. like this is the team that made Final Fantasy 14 or did a lot of Final Fantasy 14, including Evans Ward, the first expansion. And so pretty much all of their quest design is like straight out of Final Fantasy 14 to the point where like I recognize certain tropes like finding sparkles on the ground that are items. And then you have to hand over.

There's even the whole extra prompt of like hand over this item, which is straight out of an MMO RPG. So it's very much that kind of design background. being approached to this game. I think the Zelda comparison is also great here because of how opposite they are. Like it would be like if Zelda said to you, after you complete the Wind Temple, it's like, okay, now you have to just go clean up some Yiga clan guys. Exactly.

You have to do that now. You don't get to pick. You need to go to six camps and defeat 16 guys at each one. Like that is the level of on the rails that Final Fantasy is. And I think sometimes people see that as a bad thing. but I really don't. Like I'm not one of those people who's like, oh, this game's too linear. I'm never that way.

So it's more just that going between these two games at this particular juncture of video game releases is very weird mentally. Like I am playing these two games at the same time. So the differences are much more stark, Ned Stark, than they otherwise would be because it's just like, wow, this is a medieval fantasy game with magic and stuff. but they do not want to let me have any freedom over what I'm doing next or which part of the story I'm seeing. Whereas in Zelda, I'm like, oh, maybe I'll go find a dragon's tier. Maybe I'll go check that at. Watch a cutscene. Well, there is, so I should be clear, there is freedom.

Like there's a whole open world's part of the game where you can go do side quests and hunt optional monsters and stuff. There is a fair amount of freedom that you just haven't reached yet. It's just that when I talk about some of the tedious, monotonous stuff, that is just kind of part of the main story. if you want to continue the main story, you have to go do these like boring, tedious things that you probably don't want to do. So, I mean, a comparison in Zelda might be that like instead imagine that after, like you said, after every dungeon or something, you have to go kill 10 yaga. And you can also go and go kill 10 of something else if you want, but you to continue the story.

You can't do another dungeon until you go kill the 10 yika. Yeah. Yeah. At its best, that kind of stuff can be an opportunity to let the player explore the world. a little bit more. Like the big, you know, bombastic set piece is, sorry, I had to do that. Bomblastic is what we say. The bomb, that's right, we use bomb blastic. The big set piece is kind of usually a culminating story moment, or at least hopefully. I remember talking to Neil Druckman, I think about Uncharted 2 and how this is kind of a tangent, but sorry, I'm jet-liked,

about how their early set pieces, a thing that they learned with Uncharted 2 was that big set pieces should actually correspond with climactic narrative moments. And he compared, I think we were talking about The Last of Us, he compared the moment in Uncharted 2 when the building falls and you're inside of it and this helicopter blows up a building and it's the most unbelievable thing in the game. But actually it kind of just takes place randomly in the middle of nothing. Like nothing happens narratively there. It's just like the most exciting thing that happens because of building falls.

Where in The Last of Us, like when Joel gets impaled later in the game, it's a big set piece and it's narratively intense because you're worried. Joel is going to die. And he was talking about how important it is to have the story line up with those climactic moments. Anyways. And yet. And yet, well, and it was kind of a thing they had to learn. Yeah, no, I totally get why. It's like it only seems obvious in retrospect. But it, yeah. Well, it's obvious if you're just writing a script, a screenplay or something, but in terms of game development. Not always. God knows, I've seen action movies where I'm like, that was just a big action scene. But it's a lot easier. It's a lot easier to be like, hey, I'm going to write. I'm going to make

when I write these big moments, they also have emotional impact as opposed to game design where you're thinking about 400 different variables and you have to worry about coordinating all these different things that are made in totally non-linear ways. Yeah, and it is the thing that even in movies now, you still don't always see it. I mean, the reason the Matrix is so amazing is because the final action sequences are so good because the whole story has been building to them and it all hinges on like, can Keanu Reeves do an amazing thing and be amazing? And then he does it and you're so excited because of the anyways. Or like the Avengers, finally assemble at the end of the Avengers.

They sure do. Yeah, that's the culmination of the movie because you've been building toward it for all these years. Anyways, it's not even really, really my point. So assuming that that is happening, assuming that's the case with these big, you know, narrative kind of climactic gameplay moments, when you then have the opportunity to just go do side quests, that can be a cool way to flesh out the world. That can be a moment to just walk around the neighborhood and talk to people and maybe

what you're doing is just, you know, picking up whatever collector cards from everybody because someone told you to do it. But in the process, you get a sense of how this neighborhood works. I'm thinking of some of the early side quests in Final Fantasy 7 remake, where you're just walking around the kind of Midgar slums, but you're getting to know a little bit of how this town works and how this place works. And while gameplay-wise, it's really just repetitive and kind of boring, you can at least get something of the world out of that kind of forced side-questing. And I don't know whether FF-16 does it exactly the same way, but that approach can work. It's just that sometimes it also can feel like if the narrative part isn't there or the world-building part isn't there,

then there's really just no point at all, and it feels kind of pointless. Well, so my question to you guys is, do you feel like when you're playing this game and it has this big spectacle, this giant set piece or even a big heightened emotional moment, like someone just died? or something, do you feel like after that you need to take a breath and do something that's kind of like flat and dull? Do you need that cigarette afterwards? Or do you feel like a story can just keep propelling itself from moment to moment? Like from high-actane moment to high-actane moment? It depends, right? I mean, like, a game like Bayonetta can just sort of go from climax to climax, right? Some games do it. It can. It can and it does. And that's sort of the joke of it.

I feel like also the games I think of that are constantly high octane are very stressful to play. Like they're like horror games where it's like, oh, Leon Kennedy only barely scraped out of this, but oh my God, there's another guy. And like you think you finally can take a breath, but then like a guy is exploding into spikes. Like that is not a pleasant feeling. Like you want actually that chance to take a beat. Maybe you're not walking around delivering mail per se. But I think when a game isn't offering you that, it's because it wants you to feel either the

high octane sensation of a bayonetta or the fear of a horror game that is like you are never safe and you should never feel safe at all. But yeah, in an RPG I'm like, yeah, I just want to vibe and deliver some mail for a second. I just want to get to know these people. Right. I think that kind of pacing can be good. And even outside of role-playing games, modern warfare is a good example where you play through this really harrowing sequence where you are killed in, you know, your character is killed in a nuclear explosion. And then the Chernobyl sequence follows it, which is this really really intense sort of sneaking cat and mouse thing that is just at a very different level than the like pitched firefights you were just in. I think that's an example of really good pacing where

there's like a super intense climactic moment followed by not something boring, but just a release, something that lets you sort of relax in the way that I think great films. And it's something that naughty dog is very good at those kinds of linear games when they're done right. They give you those moments to breathe. I think it's something the last of us actually did really well. Yeah, I think the important part of that is not being boring is giving you that chance to breathe without like making you feel like why am I doing this right now? Like this is a waste of my time. I'm kind of realizing that a lot of those quote unquote boring segments in games that I like feel a little bit like a carnival.

And I don't mean in the exciting sense. I mean in the like walk around. There's little tiny diversions everywhere you look. Like the beginning of Tears of the Kingdom kind of feels that way. it is technically a tutorial, but it's like a specific sky island where there's only so much you can do. There's kind of a linear circle you have to walk around in, but you can do it in the wrong order and God knows I did and you can discover things in the quote unquote wrong time, or like the beginning of Bioshock Infinite, not a game I like, but a beginning of a game that I think

is really strong. Literally a carnival, you're walking around, you get to know the world and the setting super well. And Final Fantasy 7 remake also feels kind of carnival-ish. You don't have to take every side quest, but just the experience of walking around that setting and seeing people in the ramshackle houses tells you everything you need to know, even if you don't talk to anyone. You're still getting that vibe and that storytelling through just the environment that you're exploring. But that environment has to actually be interesting to explore or else what is going on, you know? Yeah, and I think an interesting comparison to that is a game like Red Dead Redemption 2 that goes pretty far beyond the amusement park thing, or at least it takes the amusement park idea to such an extreme level of immersion

and design that it doesn't really feel like you're walking through an amusement park sometimes. It really just feels like you're walking through this digital world. And yet it does the same thing with pacing, or it allows you to do the same thing where you play through a story mission, and then you can just chill out and walk around and do really mundane stuff in that game. But because it's presented so immersively, it actually feels really great. It feels like a nice contrast in pacing. And just the act of walking through the world feels like really distinct and gives you a lot of distinct experiences.

I think that's a really good comparison point that I hadn't thought of, Red did too, because there are a lot of parts of that game that, like, one might say, feel boring or mundane or, well, so mundane that they're boring. And some things deliberately feel, at least I read on it, is deliberately feeling clunkier than they might in another game. whether it's like reloading a gun or like making coffee at the campfire walking around in general just like walking and I think that's really interesting because I really love that game and I think that the detail helps the way it looks helps the way it feels deliberate helps as opposed to something like 16 where again like I mentioned you're just standing in front of a shiny thing and press X imagining a game like Red Dead 2 that did try to do some of the things that it does that feel as mandane as they do if they were like represented as little metaphors of like shiny dots on the ground or something, that would just be terrible. So maybe the detail plays a large role into it. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of like an Assassin's Creed or a Ubisoft game, right?

They kind of are a little more in that way where they put things forward in the UI. So you get a lot of icons and things you can click on. And it does feel more artificial. It does. Yeah. And I think in Red Dead too, it works really well. That's a game with really interesting pacing decisions, some better than others. but the worst one is probably the whole Guam section.

The whole unnecessary chapter that they could have. Yeah, but there are some really cool moments of pacing in that game where you're forced to deliberately do something super slow, whether it's like riding on a horse and having to keep up with your partners or like really slowly or just being at the campfire in general. Like some of those are some of the best parts of the game. So that's a really interesting, just kind of example of pacing in general. So yeah, so Final Fantasy 16, let's put a book,

on this conversation by just talking a little bit more about some of the things it does at the beginning because the three of us have all at least played that that opening section we got to talk about clive's hair right i mean just for the next five minutes is that yeah please do you want to do you want to i'm just joking i'm just joking no please go ahead if you have if you have thoughts on the pacing of clive's hair we can talk we can dive way deep into this next week i just i want to say i legitimately do like that all the characters in this medieval setting have really fantastic haircuts that would require very high-level maintenance. That's actually something pacing-wise that I would love if they included.

If you were just like, you need to style Clive's hair every day. Like, you need to really spend some time with that hair wax. Like, you need to just help him with his morning routine. Because goodness knows he spends a lot of time on it. And I actually feel like those kinds of gentle moments are what I like so much in Zelda, like cooking meals and, like, putting on little different outfits and looking, excited about it. Like, I would love to see more of that unless male delivery, but genuinely, I love the haircuts. I know people make fun of them, but holy, holy. There's some really

good haircuts in this video game. I mean, Maddie. Some good-looking people in the game, too. You're a Kingdom Hearts fan. Do you think that, like, Sora's hair is just, like, magical? Or do you think he just styles it for five hours a day? I mean, it is funny. I do feel like Final Fantasy 7 remakes version of Cloud's hair really takes the, like, Homer Simpson, but in real life extremes of like, what does this level of spiky hair really look like as we get more and more high res and like the new version of Sora and like Kingdom Hearts 4 or whatever is kind of like that where it's like, yeah, it does look really weird, right? Like there's so much hair wax in there. But I don't know. I think it's great. Uncanny and cany power except for hair gel.

So hard to make. Yeah. Kirk, what do you think? Do you have any final thoughts on the first hour and a half of Final Fantasy 16? Do you like the hair? Do you, are you excited to get to the combat? that I mentioned? Yeah, I've played a little bit of combat. It does seem fun. Yeah, I like it so far. I mean, it is a special challenge to be as jet-lagged as I was last night and try to take through the first hour and a half of this without.

I was just falling asleep. I was dead on my feet trying to pay attention to what was going on. And I really did value the act of time lore thing, partly because I could just pause it and then I would kind of nod off. And then I'd wake up and then I'd just look at everything and read and find out who who people are. This character, Jill is Theon Grayjoy. Got it.

Back into the game. And so, and that is the, that's my other thought. That's her back story. She's theon. No, really. And so many of this, so many of the things in the game are just Game of Thrones things. Jason, you said this a couple weeks ago when you were describing the game. You're like, it's super, super, super Game of Thrones.

And I remember just kind of laughing and you were, you don't realize how. The developers talked about that. Like, that's literally true. Yeah, you don't realize just how much until you play. Right. You were leaving out specifics. But then when you start playing and it's like one woman is calling a guy her lion and the iron people. and the yeah there's a wards tag and he's like john snow because his mother doesn't like him she's like

just like catlyn stark and and i was just like wow okay this really is like they took game of thrones and just put it into a final fantasy blender so then people are writing chocobos and there's huge fireballs everywhere and whatever all these these big monsters stalking around they have great haircuts haircuts that would never be seen on hbos game of thrones no no so it's a really funny mix i mean it just it is, I find it beguiling and I'm intrigued. I want to play more. So, yeah, I'm enjoying it so far. Imagine if Game of Thrones made you like stop watching for a while so you could go pick

flowers. Go deliver mail. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah, it's interesting. Game of Thrones is a great comparison point in many ways. But just in terms of pacing, I mean, there are very few moments while watching Iron Thrones where you're like, man, this is boring.

I wish they would cut to something else. Whereas in a game, that happens a lot. The first season of games, Game of Thrones, though, that's a little, it's a little more like this, where it starts pretty slow. And it does, it really takes up until Ned Stark gets beheaded at the end of season one, where suddenly everyone was like, whoa, okay, this show's not messing around. This is a very different thing than I thought it was.

It takes a long time. I think there probably were people who started Game of Thrones who were like, this is really boring. I'm out. Yeah, I mainly was comparing it to the books, actually, in my head, because I'm one of those really cool people who read the books way before the show was even greenlit. So is Jason. I think the two of you both are. Yeah, I think so, right?

Yeah. So the books start pretty slow and also the books just don't explain anything to you. Like there's no active time lore with George R. Martin. And I was thinking about the opening. Well, there is a glossary in the back that essentially is the active time war. It's true. It's just a little not quite as accessible. That's me flipping back and forth.

That's essentially what active timelor is. Yeah, but I remember reading a Game of Thrones and just being so lost for the entire beginning, but just enjoying feeling really lost. And this game just doesn't do that. It holds your hand so much more than George would ever let any reader do. And that is just such a key difference, both in terms of just pacing and pure comprehension. Like the game, just by including something like active time lore and also really guiding you from set piece to set piece, like that is the final fantasy of it all that is the peanut butter mixed with the chocolate of Game of Thrones. Like it is so different to have something that is holding your hand as opposed to just being like, deal with it.

There's white walkers. What are they? I'm not going to tell you. You might find out in like 600 pages. And even then you might still kind of be like, what are they? And like there's a wall. And who is John Snow? What even is his deal? Like it takes, I don't know multiple books read or really know. And that's just how those books are. So yeah, I'm very, I'm looking forward to talking about this game with both of you and you both had a chance to play more. Yeah, we got to play more. In the meantime, we will take a break from this high octane action conversation by actually taking a break. It's time for a cigarette break, and then we'll be back for one more thing. For more high-octane, one more thing. Oh, my gosh. Hi, it's me Dave Holmes, host of the pop culture game show Troubled Waters. On Troubled Waters, we play a whole host of games, like one where I describe a show using

Limerick that our guests have to figure out what it is. Let's do one right now. What show am I talking about? This podcast has game after game and brilliant guests who come play him. The host is named Dave. It could be your faith. So try it. Life won't be the same.

A big business starring Bet Midler and Lily Tomlin. Close, but no. Oh, is it Troubled Waters, the pop culture quiz show with all your favorite comedians? Yes, Trumbled Waters is the answer. To this question and all of my life's problems. Now, legally, we actually can't guarantee that. But you can find it on maximum fun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. Jay Keith, do you know what I love more than the trivia, comedy, and celebrity guests on our podcast?

Go fact to yourself? No, what, Ellen? sharing all of those things with an actual audience. A live audience. Woohoo! Well, lucky for you, listeners, GoFact Yourself, has brand new episodes featuring live audiences cheering on guests every month. And we still have all of our Zoom episodes with contestants and experts from around the world. We can truly have it all.

Yay! You can hear it all twice a month, every month, on maximum fun.org or wherever you get podcasts. Yeah, no excuses. So if you're not listening, you can go... You're back to yourself. And we are back. Hope you all enjoyed your little peace and quiet time, your little breaks from our show. Let's get into one more thing.

I will go first. I'm not doing anything that interesting that I can talk about just yet. But I do want to talk about a news event that happened that we didn't, wasn't worth dedicating an entire episode to, but did have a couple of interesting moments, which is the Nintendo Direct that hit last week that had a bunch of fun stuff that I want to get into a little bit. I was excited personally about a couple of things, like a remake of Star Ocean 2, which is a game I played growing up, and I'm very curious to see what that remake looks like. And another remake that I think is going to like really blow people's minds when it comes out

later this year, which is Super Mario RPG, a classic, classic game that you guys will both love, I suspect. I played it. I played it with you on stream, Jason. Oh, yes. I never have, and I would like to play it. So I'm excited to spread. This feels like a game that you'll both want to play to completion, because it's not that long and it's really good. The thing that's most impressed about this game, which is essentially like a square Nintendo collaboration in 1996 that mixes Mario characters with turn-based combat.

The thing that's really cool about this game is the level of detail to it all. There's just so many, like, fun little moments and little things that you discover. And I'll give you guys an example that might be one of my favorite things in the game, which is something you can miss entirely. So when you get to this one, there's this one city, and it has a hotel that has, like, really nice rooms that you can pay a lot of money for. And there is a way to book one of these rooms and not have enough money to pay for it. I think they bill you afterwards or something like that. This is me speaking on memory, and I haven't played this game in a long time. So bear with me if I get any small things wrong.

But essentially, you can be in this situation where you book this room. It's really nice. You stay in there. It's like an inn. And you have a great night, and then you come out, and you can't pay for it. So what they do is they make you pay for your stay by going and working for the hotel and doing dishes and stuff. And you have this ridiculous cutsy in the place where you're just like doing work for the hotel, and then it's done.

and that this there's no reason for this to be in the game it's totally optional totally unrelated to anything you can just wind up like in indentured servitude for this fancy hotel in super maru RPG for some reason good love it um this this game is just full of tiny little secrets and details there's like an optional boss who's really cool that i'm very curious to see how the remake handles it and it just like my mouth was dropped when i saw how cool the remake looks so i can't wait for that one and then the other thing that we're definitely all going to play later this year is super mario brothers wonder a new 2d mario that looks absurd i mean did you guys see the trailer for this game holy crap it looks amazing yeah i did i saw the i saw the elephant mario that was all i knew it was very cute elephant mario oh my goodness good stuff i love him um elephant mario and also drug tripping mario like you you get a power up and then the world goes crazy um it just looked incredible it just looked like so much fun uh that game. It just, yeah, that tiny two-minute trailer was all I needed to see to be like, wow, this is going to be another, another, also another year where like Nintendo has a new Zelda

and a Mario six years after the last one. So that's a fun, fun, potent combination for presumably the Switches last, maybe last year, maybe last year and a half. Who knows how much longer the Switch is going to be around. But yeah, just really cool to see. And just, a really enjoyable Nintendo Direct that I don't know why they waited until a week after like E3 or fake E3 to do maybe they hate Jeff Keely and they didn't want to be part of this thing you know yeah it's it's funny to imagine yeah they wanted to get their own little one more thing segment instead of being bundled in with all the other game news that's true pacing man it's all about pacing there you go but yeah a fun a fun sequence of events and I'm just I'm excited to have at least

two games that the three of us are going to get really into this fall in Mario Wonder and then Super Mario RPG. So that'll be that'll be fun. Screw all the other stuff. Screw Assassin's Creed, Call a Duty. We're just going to play a remake of a Super Nintendo game. All right. Maddie, what's your one more thing? So I read a book called Enders Game by Orson Scott Card for the first time. I just was thinking about Orson Scott Card a lot amidst the whole Harry Potter game situation because I've always felt like J.K. Relling's bigotry is pretty apparent if you read her books as an adult and through just sort of an analytical lens. I feel like you can really spot that. And I'd never read Ender's game before, but it's super

famous, Orson Scott Card, Mormon guy, notable homophobe, not an arguable. Like people, people don't like the guy. He's been canceled many decades since. And I just kind of always was like, I kind want to read Ender's game. It's a famous gamer book. And I got to get my gamer canon in. And also I was like, people love Ender's game, but like, what is it? Is, is any of that in the book? Like, my hypothesis was yes. And I would say that bears out. I don't think anyone should read Ender's game, actually. It's really weird to read as an adult because the just the didactic nature of it is mega strange. As like one small shoutout, religion is outlawed in this totalitarian society that has child soldiers. but the only religions that are mentioned as being outlawed are Mormonism and Christianity.

And there are Jewish characters who are practicing Jews and are given positions of commanding power in the government because they're socially perceived as being more adept at that. I'll let you all draw your own conclusions about what that could possibly mean. But I do want to say one thing about Ender's game that I thought was interesting. And then I don't think people talk about that much because they mostly are like Enders game invented iPads and drone warfare. Sure. It did invent those things. Orson Scott Card individually invented those things. That's all true.

But it also predates the internet, like in a huge way. And it invents trolling. Like there's a huge plot in this book where an 11-year-old girl pretends to be this sort of Joe Rogan-esque neocon who inflames society such that she allows her slightly older megalomaniacal sociopath brother, who is also an internet troll, to become the leader of the free world. It's like wild Like I feel like at the time people were like That's an absurd storyline But reading it now I was like no that could happen That could absolutely happen like tomorrow

I wouldn't be surprised If like an 11 year old girl was behind Like all the most notable troll accounts You can imagine and that she was just doing it To be like I'm smarter than all these freaking adults So yeah that part of the book Fascinating But I don't know that I don't even let me ask you something

Maddie so when I when I read that book for the first time before the movie or anything like that. I remember thinking the entire time like, oh, this is like not a simulation. It's going to be a real war. And then when it was presented it as a twist, I was like, wait, that was supposed to be a twist. I thought that's how I was supposed to be reading this, that it's like they're actually piloting comments in the battle. Like, was that your interpretation also? I mean, I knew that twist going in.

And so I actually expected it to come up way, way sooner than it does. They do not reveal that until the very end. Yeah, it's like a final twist. And also only some of the battles are real, quote unquote. There's a lot of actually simulated ones leading up to them that I was like, how could these turn out to be real battles? So like knowing the twist kind of ruined the book, but not in the way that you would think,

not in the way that it was like, oh, I wish I hadn't been spoiled on the twist of Anders game, which I feel like most people know at this point. Honestly, I feel like just kind of the politics of the book ruin the book. But that makes it fascinating. Like I like reading stuff by people that I, I don't agree with and thinking about it. I read Atlas Shrugged as an adult.

Loved critiquing it. I like doing things like this. So I recommend it if you're that kind of weirdo. But otherwise, I think it's a really weird book and it's kind of, it's kind of strange. You don't need to read it. I don't know. There are those sequel books too, right? I feel like the sequel books.

And people are obsessed with them. They really get more into some of the questions raised in the book. They do. You're not planning on reading those. I don't think so. I've got a lot of other books I want to read. Our former colleague Tim Marchman was. trying to convince me to read some books in the latter day Enders game.

And I was like, I think I'm, I think I'm good, man. But I get that they have their fans. Well, let me just say, okay, so I don't know about, I mean, the sequels to Enders game from when I remember going some weird directions, but I remember loving. Yeah, like, Dune style. Yeah. Well, it creates a whole mythos about the aliens and gets into all that stuff. But I remember loving the spin-off that takes the character Bean and turns him into the hero.

And I remember that being. from his perspective. Yeah, and tells it from his perspective and then goes on to like tell his adventures. I remember thinking those were even better than Ender's game, the original Ender's game. So take that for what it's worth. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's kind of tough to get on board because just the ethos of the book is so clear. And I think if you're a kid reading it, you can ignore that stuff way more easily and just be like, this is a fun, exciting book. But when you're an adult, you're like, this totalitarian regime doesn't really add up. There's like some weird shit in here. I don't know. But like that can be fascinating to if you like thinking about that

sort of thing and about how people's political ideologies end up in the fantasies that they think are interesting. And yeah, so Ender's Game. It's a book about a gamer who became a killer. Wikipedia says that in 2016 Orson Scott Card followed the quote, hold your nose, vote Trump hashtag and voted accordingly. Make that track. Make of that what you will. Trump and 11-year-old girl who's just been posting online for years to dupe us all. Orson Scott Cardin is the answer. Kirk, what's your one more thing?

My one more thing is a Netflix show that I finished a week and a half ago or so called Beef. It's what's for dinner. It's what you should watch because that's really good. Really, really, really good. So I want to give it a huge recommendation for anyone who hasn't watched it. I thought that it was fantastic. So I'll say that up front. Beef is a limited series, or I think it is.

They've maybe talked about making another season, but I think it would probably be about different people. It is a self-contained story. Ten episodes that are actually around half an hour to 40 minutes long, like they're a little bit shorter than your average drama of this type, like dark comedy drama. And that makes the pacing kind of work for it. This is a show about two people who become engaged in essentially a mortal combat

with one another over the course of the show for no real reason. And it starts one way and it ends a very different way. And I'll say that if you start this show and you find it stressful or you maybe think it's not your thing that I would recommend sticking with it because this show has one of the best endings, I personally think anyways, one of the best endings of anything I've seen in a very long time. The final episode is absolutely incredible. I found it moving and funny and like just really profound and beautiful and I was amazed by it. So a little bit more detail now. This show is created by Lee Sung-jin, who I am not familiar with, whose work I'm not

familiar with. It stars Ali Wong and Stephen Yen as two people. Ali Wang is a very outwardly successful and wealthy small business owner. She owns this kind of plant shop that is in the process of being acquired by this huge conglomerate. So she's really on edge as she tries to make this deal happen. And then Stephen Yen, who people probably know from The Walking Dead, he was Glenn on the The Walking Dead. He's been in a few other things. Yeah, he's been in, I think you should leave.

That's probably what our listeners know. He was actually, when he was a Nope. Actually, most recently, he was in Sorry to Bother You. He was in Sarnor. He was in Saut. He was in Saut. He was in Noree in Nope. The thing is, they're both really good in this. Stephen Yien is, he is an incredible actor. Holy crap. He's good in this. Like, man, they both are amazing. So anyways, he is a kind of lower class, like, lower on the sort of class spectrum, down and out kind of construction guy. He runs his own company. he's always kind of just scamming and trying to get by. Yeah, he's very much a hustler.

And so they have a road range incident where he's like pulling out of the parking lot. She cuts him off and honks at him. He like honks back at her and she flips him off. That leads to like this car chase. They both just sort of snap and trying to catch each other and the road rage of it all. They don't ever actually hit each other. But that's the inciting incident. Yes.

They both just sort of snap for very different reasons. And then the show winds up being a sort of. story of at first their escalating conflict as they find out who the other person is. They begin kind of taunting one another and like setting out to destroy one another's lives. And then you get to know them each. You get to know their family situation, what's going on in their lives. And you get to see all of the ways that the world has sort of pushed them down and cause them to become so stressed out and so angry and led them into this position where they are just these inextricable adversaries to one another. And because both of the performances are

so strong. Allie Wong, I'd only seen her as a comedian, and I guess she was in that one rom-com, but she's an amazing actor. She's so, so good. And like I said, Stephen Yen is like next level, incredible. Because the performances are so good and because the writing is so well done, you really get a sense of these people. It never stops being stressful and funny in that kind of breaking bad meets, I don't know what kind of way, where you're just like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm about to watch this happen. And you see these two things colliding, like hurling toward one another and then they collide in this horrifying hilarious way and then things get worse and worse and worse as it goes. But also there's just this very profound and really meaningful

exploration of anger and the ways that anger can kind of be cathartic almost or it can help you find yourself again. And it's not touchy-feely. Like it's not like it always resists coming around to like let's just be friends and get along and it's all going to be okay. like it's a really dark show and it really is about the darkness inside all of us and the anger inside all of us it is very specifically i think about the asian-american experience about the like frustrations and the stifling feeling of the kind of model minority the quote-unquote model minority feeling like they're all constant like microaggressions toward both of these characters especially ali wang as she's you know trying to sell her business to this white billionaire lady and just like all of the

ways that that can kind of compound all of your frustrations in life so it's it's really really specific and culturally specific and interesting. It centers on two incredible performances with a great supporting cast and it has one of the strongest endings of any show I've seen in a really long time. So I seriously can't recommend it enough. It's so, so, so, so good. So it's

called Beef, it's on Netflix and I loved it. Cool. Cool. Awesome. Beef. I will definitely check it out. You are not the only person who said it's awesome. Maddie is also said it's awesome, among other folks. Cool. All right. That is that for this week's episode. We'll be back next

week to talk more Final Fantasy 16. Looking forward to that. Yeah. See you both. Oh, and bonus episode is sitting Monday, right? Or soon. Correct. Soon. Soon. All right. In the meantime, see you guys next week. Yeah. See you next week.

Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration, you can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at Maximumfund.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at Triple ClickPod. Send email the triple click at maximum fun.org and

find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximumfund.org. Comedy and culture. Artists owned. Audience. Audience supported.