Triple Click - Has Super Mario RPG Still Got It?

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

Maddy, Kirk, and Jason take a trip to the Mushroom Kingdom and almost get skewered by a giant sword as they play through Super Mario RPG, the new remake of the iconic Super Nintendo game. The gang talks about how it's aged in 2023, the turn-based combat, and just how damn funny the whole thing is.One More Thing:Kirk: Scott Pilgrim Takes Off Maddy: Grand Theft Auto 5Jason: Interest ratesLINKS:J Kenji López-Alt’s YouTube Channel and his book, The Food LabSupport Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy Triple Click Merch: https://maxfunstore.com/search?q=triple+click&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

What if I told you that all the characterization work in the Mario movie already happened, but way better, in 1996? Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week, we all played Super Mario RPG for the Switch, a faithful remake of the NES 1996 original that made Bowser into the gruff zaddy we all know and love. I'm Maddie Myers. I'm Jason Schreier. And I'm Kirk Hamilton and hello. Hello. Hello. How are you guys?

I'm good. A very happy holiday weekend. Happy Thanksgiving. Yeah. American Thanksgiving for our international listeners. It's the American Day of Eating Turkey. That's what we do here. And watching football. Our national bird almost. Yes. I'm not going to be doing any of that, but I'll be eating turkey. Giving thanks. Giving thanks. Trying to shuffle people out of our kitchen so we can clean it. And then they can come back in. You guys want to hear the secret to making a really good turkey? You guys want to hear the trick, the hot tips.

I learned this from Jay Kenji Lopez, which is you spachcock, the turkey, which means that you cut out the backbone and flatten it. And you roast it. And it's done in an hour and a half and it's delicious. And it doesn't dry out because it's done it an hour and a half. We always brine ours. You know, Maddie, we get a kosher turkey at our house, so you don't need to brine it because it's already brine. So same sort of principle.

But brining is in addition to Spatchcock. Oh, do both. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you guys ever watch Jay Kenji Lopez's YouTube channel? I do not. I have.

I like his GoPro. I like how he. Fantastic. He has a super normal kitchen. He just puts on a GoPro and then makes stuff with whatever he's got. Oh, my God. That's an amazing cooking show level up. It's very catches, catch can, and very casual.

I love that. It's great. I really, I recommend it to everybody. That's a free recommendation here at the start of the show. So you're like playing Thanksgiving and first person. Well, his cookbook, I've recommended his cookbook to everybody. We've been cooking out of it, actually. When Emily's mom was in town, we just started making stuff out of the food lab.

It's truly amazing. I mean, I could talk forever about this, but his tricks of, like, putting soy sauce and things. And, like, he's just so good. He's everything he makes his cake. Welcome to Triple Cook, our cooking podcast. Oh, that's a really good triple cook. Don't go. One of these days, we could do that.

Just share recipes. Talk about my smash burger recipes. That'd be really good. Or I was going to say like triple click like the button on the oven to make sure that it's set properly. I don't know. That doesn't really work as well as triple cook. No, I think triple cook is maybe a little stronger. But hey, while we're here.

You're saying we shouldn't title a segment, triple click the button on the oven to make sure it was that parenthetical. I don't know. I don't know if we should or shouldn't call it that. This isn't an episode of triple cook. That's where we would work the details out on that. This is an episode of triple click. And if you want to hear more. off-kilter observations about our personal lives and also more about us, then you could become

a member of Maximum Fun, which is our network at MaximumFund.org slash join. If you were to become a member, you'd get a monthly bonus episode from us, some of which are even about our personal lives. We haven't done one with recipes yet, but it's only a matter of time. And we also do beans casts there sometimes where we spill the beans, aka, share all the spoilers about something we've played or watched and this month we're going to do a beans cast about spider-man two, which is a game we all played. And that'll be fun to talk about. But yeah, go to maximum fun.org slash join and you can become a member and get access to the whole backlog of bonus episodes from us and also some other shows. But you're listening to Triple Click so you probably want to know about

our bonus apps. I mean, I don't know. All right, Jason, what are we talking about today? this week we are talking about Super Mario RPG which is a new remake that just came out on the Nintendo Switch so we've all played it we're going to do a triple play where we talk about it so this game this new version is a remake of a 1996 RPG by Square before they were Square Enix and also done in conjunction with Nintendo which also published it it was for the Super Nintendo and it was kind of one of those chocolate peanut butter things.

Hey, Square makes RPGs, Nintendo makes Mario, let's stick them together and see what happens. And the results were pretty incredible. People love that game and it was a top seller for a long time. Here in the US, it was particularly popular. People really loved it.

I remember playing it at like one of those like game arcade things where they like have a Super Nintendo and you can play something for an hour and I was so blown away that I like tried to track down a copy and got one for like Conica after a year or something like that. Fantastic game.

It just got remade, so this is a good opportunity to look at how it's aged to see what the remake is like. This remake is on the scale. I don't really remember what you would call it, Kirk, because it's just a graphical remake and some quality of lifestyle. Oh, right. So it's not like, on the taxonomy. I'm not sure exactly what it would be called, but it's not like a final fantasy seven.

There are a lot of categories on there. There was like triple plus, like advanced. Special shiny remake or whatever. That's our remake show in addition to our cooking show, Triple Cook. We have Triple Plus. And then... We're launching a lot of projects, guys. Well, I think we should do a show about marriage called Triple Cuck.

Wow. That's our dating relationship. That really went in a direction I didn't expect. Much like the podcast Triple Cuck. Genuinely unfortunate. Kirk here and while you're all, digesting that recent turn of events. I just wanted to say I went back and I found our taxonomy of remakes, the one that goes all the way from a re-release of the original game to

Super Turbo Remake Plus, and this version of Super Mario RPG that we've been playing is a remake plus. So it is a new engine, new tech, new visuals, but makes a point of keeping the gameplay the same and adds a couple of new gameplay mechanics as well, or at least a couple of small tweaks. Okay, so let's get back to our discussion of this remake plus. Bing! Today we're talking about Super Mario RPG, and yeah, I mean, I know this game very well because I played the Super Nintendo version several times. You guys know it less well.

First, before we dive into the meat of it, let's go around and just kind of do some quick, like, how much should we play? What do we think of it so far? Maddie, why don't you go first? How much should you played, and what do you think? I had never played this before, so I'm starting from zero, Although I'm also starting from a lot of knowledge about the game because in addition to you, Jason, I have another best friend

with my co-host a different podcast called The Mutant Ages who's obsessed with this game. So I'm fulfilling multiple friend requests here by playing Super Mario RPG. And much like you, Jason, this friend doesn't understand that I don't like turn-based games, but it's okay. I'm getting through it with this one. We'll talk about it. everything else there is on offer here. And that might just be enough for me to get.

How far are you? I have just gotten Princess Peach in my party. So I think I'm after Boosters Tower, but I'm like on to the next section with Peach in hand. And I love that she has an attack that's just called therapy. Like this is the kind of thing about this game that I like is the characterization of the Mario World, because you don't really get to know those characters. And like regular Td Mario or even Mario 64, which came out the same year, apparently, 96. So I love that. It's just that this is a turn-based role-playing game. And, well, we all know how I feel about this. You'll be pleased to hear that the Princess Peach gets a frying pan as a weapon. I love that. I love everything she's done so far. Kirk, how far are you? And what do you think so far?

I'm really liking it. I'm not that far. I've played a few hours. I'm past where you and I got when we streamed it a couple of years ago. So I've beaten, I guess the first boss, what's his name? It's a pun on Claymore. Clay Morton, is that as a man? Yes, the big sword guy. The first of what I assume will be multiple big sword guys, Clay Morton. Yes, I have a feeling that that's how that's going to work.

I've visited with the elder, um, toad frog, the elder frog. Yeah. Oh, so you got to the first, that's the first big plot chest is that Mallow is not a frog. I loved that. That is a huge twin. I loved that cutscene. No clue. And I love this game's sense of humor in general.

I'm finding it really, really charming. And think that it's just such a clever mix of Mario and, you know, a Final Fantasy style, like a square style RPG. I'm struck by that all over again. And it actually comes across a little more clearly playing it just with a modern presentation. So I really like it. And I love what they've done with the soundtrack. I think that the live instrumentation is wonderful.

The performances are killer. The boss bite music. Oh my God, it's this like goes completely out of control. Really, really fun music. Yeah, Yoko Shimamura, who is the original composer, came back to do this remade version. Oh, really? Oh, that's so cool. She is like, I mean, there's like a canon of composers. Koji Kondo's on it.

Nobuo Imatsu is on it. She is up there with the greatest of the great, like with her work on this and Street Fighter and like so many other things. She is just like astoundingly good. So yeah, so I've obviously finished the game several times. I'm only, I just got to Rose Town in this playthrough, so not as far as you, Mani in this playthrough, but obviously, know the game, know the game like the back of my hands. I've always found it extremely charming, and I think that was what really stood out to me as a kid, too, was that it was just so funny. And you really, you run into that right away.

I mean, first of all, with the subversion of getting to Bowser's Castle and then you think it's like, oh, we're rescuing Peach again. But then it just kind of turns everything on its head. But really, the first moment that really made this game feel special to me was when you get back to your little house that you, I guess, live with a toad. You live with a to Toad in this house? It's not really clear. Which is, by the way, right next door to Bowser's Castle, which I think is very important. Right, your house is right across the bridge from Bowser's Castle. I guess if Mario's going to live anywhere, it makes sense for him.

It's convenient. Bowser's Keep and Peach's Castle. Of course. Here's the thing. The thing about Mario is he can't work remotely. No. He needs to live close. No, he's got to go.

He has to return. There's a lot of pipes in Bowser's Castle. Exactly. Like Wall Street workers, he needs to go back to the office five days a week. So he needs to be close to work. His rent must be completely out of it. It's got to be killer. Yeah, well, actually, I think it's pretty cheap because nobody wants to live near Bowser's Castle.

Yeah, that's true. There's a lot of environmental hazards there. So for some reason, he lives with the Toad. And the thing that always stood out to me was when you get back there, And Mario is to explain what happened, but because he's a silent protagonist, he has to do pantomime and he can transform into all the characters that he's telling this story of in silent, in like a mime, in silent fashion. It's just incredible.

And it made me laugh so hard as a kid. And it made me laugh once again so hard as an adult. It's amazing. So I thought that this was maybe a joke about the idea of an RPG protagonist being a silent protagonist, because so many of them are. But I'm also not sure if it's because of the fact that Mario wasn't famous for having a voice in this era yet. Like Charles Martinet wasn't voicing him until Mario teaches typing in 95 and then Mario 64 and 96. So it's not like people necessarily had the Mario voice in their head while they were playing this.

Right. Even when he got the voice. So Mario, the history of Mario is like even though he has Charles Martin saying a couple of things here and there, he never actually talks. It's just like the little. Yeah, it's me. Let's go. Et cetera. Yeah, jumping noises or whatever. When he talks to, like, I'm guessing that this is, maybe it's a trope parody on silent protagonist to your point, or maybe it's just a rule from Nintendo because part of working together when Nintendo on this game means you have to take all these rules about how their characters function.

And Nintendo is actually, we'll get into story stuff in Miyamoto in a little bit, but Nintendo is actually very kind of permissive with how. how they let Super Mario RPG use these characters, turning Bowser into this fun kind of like, almost joke of a character. That was my actual favorite part, not to skip my head. Yeah, man, which is unlike, I mean, that is something, him just becoming this kind of like satirical, almost like, trope-t twist on himself is kind of,

is something that's carried forth in future games, but this was the first time that had been done. Right. Before Super Mario RPG, he was just a scary, like, dragon monster. He didn't talk. But Mario, I'm pretty sure it was just a rule. from above. He cannot talk and the developers found this clever way of like

just making him tell stories in this ridiculous fashion. In pantomime I'm like kind of using charades except if you had the power to literally transform into other things which kind of literally walk on air to create a bridge. Well I feel like it's believable since Mario can eat a mushroom and transform

into other beings. Why not have that just kind of be part of who Mario is that he can always kind of transform mystique style? Like it's not really explained it does it need to be. Exactly. It's kind of an expression of the technological limitations they were working with, right? They had a certain number of moves.

He can jump. He can crouch. And then they have a certain number of animations for other characters. So if he just transforms into them, they're kind of keeping their overhead low in terms of new, unique animations. That's right. It's all about overhead. Yeah. I do think that that's kind of true.

I mean, they're technical overhead, like, in terms of just how much they need to write. Because this was a pretty old game. And when I played, you know, the emulated version of the original that you and I played, I think that kind of stuff just made more sense because you're used to seeing that sort of cleverness. Okay, well, no, we can't write a whole new series of animations for Mario here, but we have this peach character model, so we'll just kind of snap that in for a second, and that'll convey that he's talking about peach. It's like one of those funny things that comes from a technical limitation.

You wind up having this creative way around it. And then seeing it in a game like this, which, of course, Mario could have totally. bespoke animations for every scene. Just, you know, when you're looking at it, you kind of see that it looks like a modern game. Those kinds of jokes still translate really well. Like, they're still really funny. They're just, they don't connect in my brain immediately to that idea of like a technical limitation leading to the joke in the first place.

So there are a couple of big kind of beats I want to talk about, starting with the combat. So what was another thing that was kind of, well, okay, so this game was really the first game to introduce this idea of button timing attacks. And so having to press a button at the right time when you hit to do extra damage, having to press a button in the right time when you block to prevent damage. And this was something that was then carried forth to Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi and a lot of indie games and stuff. But this originated in Super Mario RPG in 1996.

Another thing that was not unique to this game, but certainly not super common in RPGs at the time, was that all of the enemies you would encounter are on the screen. You're not getting into invisible random encounters. And those were two of the ways to kind of alleviate the grind a little bit of the kind of turn-based random encounter style of the time. That said, yes, Maddie, I mean, it's still kind of a game where you're fighting a lot of low-level encounters and not making very interesting decisions because you're just kind of smashing away at the attack button. Are you finding, so you've made a good amount of progress in this game, are you finding it to be tedious like you have with other JRP's, what's your kind of take on the combat in this game? I mean, it's going easier for a couple

reasons. One is that this game gets more fun, the bigger your party is, because there's a lot of variation in the party. And by this point, I've got Gino, Peach, and Bowser, in addition to kind of Mallow and Mario is how it starts off. And you have them for a bit. And when I just had Mallow and Mario, I was like, this is going to be a tough one for me, folks. Like, I am not having a good time. And then I got to the, I think the Bowser's comedy scene when he joins your party happens next. Or Gino, you're right. Gino is fine. He's fine.

I know people love Gino. Write your hate mail directly to me. I think he's fine so far. Bowser is so freaking funny in this game. I love him. And that scene where he joins your party made me laugh out loud. And I was like, all right, I think I understand Mario R.P.C. as a cultural fixture.

And then by the time Peach was there, it gets him. even funnier because, of course, Peach initially is like, why is Bowser here? And there's sort of the inherent comedy of that. But then also her attacks are really funny and her lines of dialogue are funny. So just like kind of having that mix of characters helps a lot. I'm realizing that mainly Mallow and Gino are the struggle for me. And they're completely original characters to this game, right? Like, I have no emotional attachment to those guys. And Mallow is a self-professed crybaby. So he's hard for me to love. but I'll get used to him

and I do like a lot of his attacks and now that I have so many different fighters and also I like that you can switch fighters out mid-battle if they die. I like that mechanic too. That's a new feature in this remake. Yeah, I really like it because it means that I can actually use all my fighters

if I choose to and if I'm fighting against something that I know has like an electricity weakness. Weakness. And I don't have Mallow on the team. I can like sub him in whenever the first person died. as long as it's not Mario, who I don't think you can ever sub out. And I like that level of tactic-guising. And I also like the timed moves that Jason mentioned.

That's fun for me. I enjoy having to perfect a timing-based maneuver in a game, even if it's very repetitious. So the other reason why I'm enjoying this more is simply because it's on the Nintendo Switch. I think if I had been playing Final Fantasy Six and Sweet Code 2 on either the Switch or the Steam deck, that was a pre-Stead deck era for us. I would have had a better time because I am playing this game on the couch sitting next to my beautiful wife. And that just makes everything better, you know?

Like, it's different when you're playing a game alone in your room. It just is. And having something on a handheld. So you're saying that you want to replay the Final Fantasy 6 pixel remaster on Switch. I do. I can't wait to, you know, I do think it helps, though. Like, I think having it on a handheld, having it on like a modern system where it's really easy to save. It's easy to put down and pick up.

Like, not having to emulate it. It just makes it easier and more user-friendly for a lot of reasons that we're just not the case with the other two games that we play. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true all around. I love, yeah, to your point about Bowser and Peach hanging up, it feels like one of those stories where it's like, yeah, I know we all hate each other, but we got a band together to save against the greater threat here. I love it. It's hilarious. And his gang of weapons. What are they, what are they going to do to this place? Got to team up and then go back to Bowser stealing stealing. peach again. Kirk, you haven't played a ton, but what do you make in the combat so far? Is it a boon for you? Are you just kind of like seeing it as a chore between interesting stuff? No, I like it okay. The timing isn't totally locking with me, especially the reaction to attacks. I just find that to be a little bit frustrating because you have to really memorize every attack

that the enemies are going to do and you have to get the timing right on the button press to get the block. and it's very frustrating when you don't get it. I think it's better on attacks just because I do those so much more that I get used to them. But I'm just, I think I may be just not that good at, you know, knowing which attack is coming. I agree. They're meant to be harder. Yeah. And you're meant to, it's meant the idea of this system is really because so many turn-based games are just kind of like you're just mashing the button while looking at something else.

This is like it's rewarding you for paying attention. Right. And I think it's making it a little bit active in a way that I think this game does really well overall. There's a kind of bubbly, tactile quality to this game that is a very Nintendo feeling. You know, most Mario games have that bubbly tactile quality. It's wild, like playing Super Mario Wonder, which was made so much later, you know, just came out this year. It has that same kind of a bounce, that same kind of feeling, and I think that that's remarkable.

What I really like that this game does actually is the way that it mixes kind of standard JRP, Squarespaceoft exploration with Nintendo exploration. And I think that's really cool. So Jason, you mentioned that they've removed random encounters where you don't just invisibly get ambushed by somebody. And that does alleviate the grind, like that feeling of grind where the world is just sort of something you pass through waiting for the next encounter.

But it also lets them, you know, there's a little more Nintendo. There's a little more platform or gameplay in general. When you're going through a dungeon, there's the first kind of major dungeon. these mice go running across the board as you're going down hallways and if you just run straight ahead sometimes you'll just run into one and you kind of get ambushed. You don't know when they're going to come

and it turns into like you're kind of trying to draw them out you go fast and then they're running around you have to get through them or I guess later when all the shy guys have taken over the town and you're trying to make your way through the town there's just this onslaught of shy guys like flying out of the castle and you have to kind of make your way in between them

it's really fun like there's a there's a an element of maneuvering, an element of platforming to the game that I think is really cool. Or you get a star and then you can run around and kill them all. So satisfying. To like the experience. That would be like the ultimate Maddie hack if I just replaced all the combat with getting stars. It's just stars. It's something that I'm surprised that more just like turn-based JRPs haven't borrowed.

I mean like Persona 5 is a fantastic game in that style. but navigating in Persona 5 doesn't feel a tenth as good as navigating in Super Mario RPG. It just feels a little jerky. You're sticking to the walls. It's a little bit like you're whipping around. There's not really this feeling of like control and like this nice sort of bubbly movement. And when you attack an enemy, when you sneak attack them, it doesn't have like that satisfying of a feeling. It's a little bit, it just doesn't quite have that Nintendo feeling.

And it makes me wish that more games did. I guess I always feel that way when I play a Nintendo game, though. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so I found playing this game that there are some dungeons, especially a little bit later on, that like the encounters get to be a real drag. There are so many of them, and you have to, like, really dodge a lot of them. But to your point, Kirk, I think being able to dodge a lot of them and not really being punished for it because this isn't a game that requires you to do a lot of grinding for levels.

You can easily skip lots of encounters and just be totally fine. the bosses are pretty, pretty easy and simple to take down. So you are kind of, you are rewarded by skipping those encounters. But yeah, it can get to be a lot, Maddie. And so I do think that we'll see if you wind up finishing the game. I don't know if I'll get there, but I am having enough fun with it so far. It's tough, though. You know, Baldur's Gate 3 still calling my name, y'all.

This RPG has to compete with one of the. greatest RPGs ever made. It's true. Well, it's funny. Also, this Mario game has to compete with a fantastic new Mario game. What I'm finding, actually, is that I'm not done with Mario Wonder, and I really want to finish that game. It's almost, it's almost a too much Mario moment for me right now, where I really like to

stream a lot. It's a strange time. It's kind of a strange timing. I agree. Like, I kind of wish they had saved this one for a couple more months. Blasphemous, I know, but it would have been a little easier for me to dive into this in January rather than trying to have. have it now when I'm catching up on my game of the year picks and everything too, you know?

I mean, it's fun. I feel like I'd like it more, too, if I could, like, really settle in. They wanted to boost their switch sales for the final holiday of just before the switch two, I suppose. It could be. Yeah, Maddie, if it helps, there's a lot of cool stuff that comes later. This game is pretty backloaded. A lot of the stuff at the beginning, like Rose Town, and that maze are just kind of manned.

The booster tower is cool. and Marymore has some fun stuff, but the like mines might be one of the worst things in the game. I don't know if you got through the mines. I got through the mines. That's probably the worst dungeon. I don't love them. There's some really cool stuff later on.

You get to, there's a cool volcano dungeon. There's a cool, I won't spoil stuff. I won't be specific, but there's some stuff in the sky that is very cool. And then, yeah, seeing the final. dungeon unfold is also very fun. It's a very cool last boss too and just kind of like final encounter. By the way, I don't know if you guys know this, but the sword inside of Bowser's castle is not in fact Smithy. I always saw it as a kid until I got that far that that was Smithy because he says, we're the Smithy gang. But no, he just works for Smithy, just a little fun

that kind of makes sense. I wasn't sure. Is to come. Yeah, I somehow did put that together because I think at least one character says it to you later that like the big the biggest sword is still at large and the one that you defeated in Peach's Castle is just one of many minions. So Smithy is still a sword

and not in fact like a blacksmith who makes swords? No no no no no so Smithy is a blacksmith who makes weapons and so Mattie I mean that would have been my guess when I heard Smithy It's not just it's not just swords Maddie has fought you've fought

the bow boss. The smithy can make anything. Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. So am I going to fight a big blacksmith? I don't know. The guy in the castle is a sword, the guy in mushroom kingdom was a dagger. Or I guess a Claymore, but still.

Right, which is so different. Different. I thought a Claymore, which is like super different from a sword. As a Claymore and looks more like a dagger. I will say the Claymore is pretty different. Yeah. I always thought it was a dagger. He kind of looks like any.

The type of sword. Okay. So Clay Morton is his. new translation, one of the few translations that has been changed. In the first, in the original game, it was called Mac the Knife. So that makes a little more sense. Yeah, knife slash dagger. But now he's a clay more, yeah.

I like Mac the Knife better as a random Tin Panelli pop song reference. So let's talk a little bit about the story. So something that, so Shigar and Miyamoto, Nintendo's Luminary and the creator of Mario and Zelda, has come out in. recent years and talked a little bit about how he's not a big fan of story. He's kind of like talking about Paper Mario specifically. He kind of tried to strip away some of the story or didn't want a ton of story in those games. Super Mario RPG was the first time that Mario was brought into this kind of RPG style, like meaty story with a lot of dialogue, more dialogue than

any previous Mario game, twists and turns and and character interactions and all this stuff that wouldn't typically be in a Miyamoto directed or Miyamoto produced Nintendo game. And I think that's really interesting. And it's a shame that it was kind of like that he didn't seem to like it that much and wanted to get Mario away from story stuff over time. But for this game, I think it really works. And there's so much enjoyable stuff in there. So many interesting, hilarious characters of like weird, super weird personalities.

and I just enjoy, that's the main reason I enjoy this game is just because of how dense the story is and how many weird directions it goes in. It's dense, but it's also pretty scattered and pretty surface level, right? In that way that JRP stories tend to be where you fill in a lot of blanks yourself, but you're only getting a couple of lines of dialogue per scene.

Everything is kind of very fun and childish and enthusiastic, And it doesn't, it's not like story story. Like even the recent Mario movie where Mario has a family that we learn about and a whole relationship with his brother. And I wonder if, you know, I can't speak for what any developer. I mean, this is coming later is the stuff that I'm talking about that you haven't gotten to you. There is stuff like, it's going to get really deep.

I mean, sure, I guess you can trump card me on that, I suppose. But I have a feeling that this game is going to stay more or less on this level. Yeah, I'm not saying, you don't even know. Like, Mario has an evil twin. There's a whole visual novel chapter where it's just about Mario's upbringing. He's father to child that we get to meet. Well, first of all, Mario does have an evil twin. His name is a warrior.

You're right. And he has father to child and that's baby Mario. I'm not saying that they're going to be body video videos of this, like, dissecting 20-minute stories. But, like, it gets a little bit denser. In fact, there's a heartbreaking Luigi subplod. Let me make the point I was making it. The point that I was making will stand up to whatever comes later in this game. And that is that I think that I can't speak for any of the developers of the game,

but I think that when they're talking about story, they're talking a little more about that than necessarily about playing with what these archetypes, like the roles that these archetypes have in this world, and letting them bounce off of each other in a slightly more narratively focused setup than just a two-d platformer like the first Mario. And in that, I think there's something to that. Like the story of this game, such as it is, it's fun because you're just watching these big, goofy cartoon characters playing house a little bit. Like they're doing a kind of Saturday matinee play in that way that I think became more and more normal in the world of Mario,

where it just always kind of feels like they're messing around. And who knows what they're going to be doing today. And now they're at the cart race and they're racing. And there actually isn't a lot of narrative scaffolding holding all of that up and explaining why they're cart racing today. and then they're having Mario Party today, and then the next day they're back fighting one another. Like, there's no real explanation because we don't need to because they're just these archetypal characters

that just get slotted into these different kind of big surface-level fun events. And it really is kind of maybe it's not my biggest gripe with the Mario movie. But the Mario movie does demonstrate, like, why I think someone who is responsible for Mario and makes Mario would feel that way, that flushing Mario out just kind of sucks. Like it just defeats the point. Like the whole fun of it is what they're doing here, what they started doing in this game.

And I guess my question about this is, was this, this was like the first time that they really kind of started playing around with that, like just letting things cut loose and be a little weird? Well, no, I mean, Mario games were always weird. And to your point, I mean, Super Mario 3 on the NES, which is a few years before this was like a literal stage play. It was like, look at all these, like,

we've got the curtain raising and here's this performance. So I suppose like letting Bowser be a part. party member, like really breaking outside of that paradigm. Yeah, well, that's, well, so this is like, yeah, and, and that's, this is also the game that, like, has, it's certainly the first Mario game where Bowser talks, where, like, Peach says more than, like, here, have a cake, Mario, come to my, come to my, come to my, uh, and is playable. She's in your party. Like, she is an equal with Bowser in that sense, you know? Well, no. Well, well, she was playable before this in Super Mario, too. But, but, but, but, like, this is the first.

game that gives a lot of meat to the bones of the character that to your point, Kirk, about Mario just kind of like letting its pants down and having a good time, that sort of being his hair down, letting his hair down and having a good time. No, no, no. I don't know what kind of good times you're having. All right, letting his hair down and having a good time. That was always there. It wasn't like exploring topics that, like,

make you think or make you laugh, and it wasn't doing the same sorts of things on the same level that this game is. And that's why I kind of push back against the idea that this is kind of that same childish JRP style, like here are a couple of lines and fill in the blanks, because I don't really think it's quite

on that level. There's a lot more cleverness to the dialogue in this than there is in a lot of those kind of 90s-era JRPGs, even something like Final Fantasy 6, which was translated by the same guy. Ted Woolsey, I don't think has the same level of comedy as this. I mean, even something as simple as like them, you being constantly asked

in different ways to prove that you're Mario by jumping or like, then after that, getting pranked by an MPC who's like, hey, there's something on your shoe and you have to jump. And then she's like, ha, ha, ha, got you. Just this game is full, so full of those ridiculous little things. Really, the closest analogy you can make to this game is something like Earthbound, which came out around the same time, I think a couple of years earlier, but also just played with quirkiness and humor in a way that we hadn't seen a ton of games try to do before. Yeah, I think that example is, it kind of makes the point that I'm making. I'm talking about the structure, like the sort of structure of delivering lines in this way

where there's a few lines, it's kind of structured, it's very light on its feet, it moves pretty quickly. And I think that it really lends itself to that kind of humor. If you're like a clever writer and you're, you know, you can come up with these sorts of jokes. I mean, the joke of, you know, what is it? The Toad says to him, she's like, you're standing in something and then it's not clear what you're supposed to do. And the only thing you can do is jump. And she's like, got you.

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, those kinds of jokes are very clever. That level of interaction and that level of story, I think, really lends itself to also like the depth and the sort of fleet footedness with which they're treating the characters. Like, it all really feels like it's on the same frequency in a way that I think really works. Yeah, I agree. I will also say, Jason, I think that that's interesting that it's the same person who translated Final Fantasy Six, because there are some things that reminded me of Final Fantasy Six in a good way,

which are just some of the ways that body language works within the limitations of this game. Like, they still include sort of the classic Pratt fall, like the characters falling on their face to great comedic effect. And that's obviously just like one of a few animations they have. It's also like the death animation. When Mallow falls down failing to close the gate and the water just totally wipes you away, I laughed very hard at that. And also kind of the Wiley Coyote nature of them trying to run away from the water and like the way that the buttons feel and sound when you press them like feels very like loony tunes and also kind of 80s and 90s anime comedies of the time. The Bowser tears are very anime. Yes, the Bowser tears.

Yeah. And I mean, it's clearly influenced by like children's cartoons of the era. And it's really effective. And I feel like I hadn't seen something like that with Mario before because it just wasn't something that a 2D Mario is trying to do. But it's possible to do with like a character pausing in a cutscene and then taking a beat and stepping forward to deliver a joke or like turn around like they're embarrassed. Like those are some of the funniest moments in the game.

It's just these basic animations. and I remember us talking about that a lot with the FF6 episodes, like how a lot can be done with a little when it comes to those kinds of interactions. And you can imagine, oh, the character's really sweating here or like, oh, they're really mad, they're jumping up and down or whatever. And it can really be effective as a comedy tool

in a way that you wouldn't expect. Yeah, unfortunately, the new graphical overhaul does not take away from that. And if anything just enhances it. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think there is a level of depth to the story that I'm curious to hear if you guys wind up playing more.

I'm curious to hear your takes on it. I mean, there's like a whole section. Now you really have to. There's a section called Star Hill where you like can go around and read people's wishes and you kind of you if you've talked to like MPCs before and paid attention you can kind of like figure out who's wishing what and it's really interesting look into their psyches.

There's also a lot of clever dialogue if you use Mallow's kind of mind reading psychopath ability on people you can know. Blind reading psychopath ability, yes. It's just that I don't remember what it's called No, it was called psychopath in the original. I think they changed it to something else. That's why I said it's like

Thought a Psychopath. It's called Thought Read or something like that. Now it's called it used to be called Psychopath which is a very hilarious Wolseyism. Ted Woolsey, the translator of these games. And yeah, I mean, I think to just speak a little bit to the changes, if you guys are curious, most of it is like, like 95% of the gameplay is

completely unchanged from the previous game, from the original game, I mean. The big changes are that gauge that goes up and then lets you do things once you hit 100% and combos and stuff and also seeing the exclamation points for like when you need to press a button. That's all new. Fast travel. It's good. It's like quality of life stuff. Auto save is new. Fast travel is new. The journal and the monster directory stuff are new. So it's like a lot of the kind of like modern, modern conveniences are the newest features. There isn't really any new content.

I think there's like a hidden boss mode that is new, or not hidden boss, like a more difficult versions of all the bosses you can fight that's new. But other than that, there's no new content. So it's really just if you, if you have. played the game before and you're wondering if you should revisit it and buy it again, you should know that it's mostly in fact almost entirely

just a graphical overhaul and musical overhaul. I saw on Polygon there was an article about how there's apparently some glitch that you can do to the final boss where there's a move that does 999,000 damage that they have now built into the game and made officials so you can just do it.

Yeah. Yeah. It is pretty cool. I'm probably going to do that. Not the final boss. One of the bosses, yeah. Yeah, a boss. It's pretty funny that they included that. Jason, as you've been playing, have you noticed any other translations issues that have changed? Like, do you feel like that's worth mentioning?

Because you've already mentioned a few that the translation is better now, clearly. Very subtle stuff. It's not significantly different. It's mostly the same. It's just like a couple of things here and there that you notice. A couple of names. Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of, in the 90s, it was a lot of English spread. spreadsheets that are very hard to read and hard to know what goes where and who aside like what names are actually described to what.

So I think it was very challenging back then. And so it's a few things that were like fixed to be closer to their original intent. But for the most part, even a lot of the names are still the same. A lot of the dialogue is pretty close to the original dialogue. So not a ton of big changes. I have to imagine that this game just felt like absolute magic. when it came out. Oh, yeah, right?

Because you could just play this style game in the world of Mario, like that you could just walk around the kingdom and talk to people and have this sort of more fleshed out in-depth adventure. Yeah. I can't even think of something else that I'd like to see, like that modern that feels like this, where someone takes something that's felt so restricted and just let it out. We don't know any lore.

We don't know anything about the characters, and then suddenly we do. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, a couple of quick things. One is, I'm going to spoil this. 27-year-old spoilers, or however long it is. There is an optional boss fight called Cullex, and you get to him. And as soon as you start, he's kind of like, okay, so the way it works is you get this little disc thing, shiny stone it's called, that opens up a door in a Monster Village.

And once you get in there, you're kind of in this weird, dimensional void, and the graphics are all strange. And then this guy comes out, and he challenges you to a boss battle. and he looks like a medieval knight or something. And then when you get into combat, you see like Mario and Bowser and Gino and jump out or wherever. And then suddenly the Final Fantasy 4 boss music starts playing. And he starts fighting against this guy

who has four crystals in front of him. And it's just like a weirdo like Final Fantasy reference and it's just a fun little thing. It's like Kingdom Hearts almost. It is. It's the first, yeah, Kingdom Hearts. This beat you two, the crossover. This is the first real crossover. Square was getting into it.

They were already thinking about it. Although it's not actually. It's just kind of a made-up character for this, not actually a Final Fantasy reference. But yeah, stuff like that is always really fun. The tragic thing about this game at the time is that I'll end on a super, super brief historical note, which is that Square and Nintendo had this relationship,

they did this thing, they were going to keep working together on stuff, but then Nintendo decided to part ways with PlayStation and go with cartridges for the N64 instead of desks. PlayStation did their thing, started the, or Sony did their thing, started the PlayStation. Square went with PlayStation for Final Fantasy 7, and the relationship with Square Nintendo was not quite the same after that.

So there was no Super Mario RPG 2, and instead Nintendo went in the direction of Paper Mario, which was also cool, but always, those games, even though Paper Mario is cool, Paper Mario a thousand-year door, which is the one that's getting a remake next year, is really good, but those games never had quite the magic of Super Mario. RPG. Yeah, there's something to bringing in someone on the outside to Nintendo collaborating

with someone. I think it was brace yourself on the Crypt of the Necro Dancer Zelda's spin off, that cadence of Hyrule game, which was so cool and so fun to see someone else riffing on Zelda. And then I think those Mario and Rabbits games are fantastic. And it's really fun to see Ubisoft. Like as little as I care for the Rabbids, it's still really fun to see this sort of different approach in this different world get mashed together with Mario.

and like that really works. So I hope Nintendo keeps doing that kind of thing, like experimenting with outside studios and collaboration. I mean, even Metroid Prime was not, it was an internal studio technically, but not a Japanese developer and working, lending their property. Yep, that's also true.

So there you go. A lot of good, great game. Interesting collabs there for sure. And then, yeah, I mean, Nintendo actually worked with Capcom on two, Zelda games, Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons that are also fantastic. So, yeah, a lot of interesting just kind of collabs over the years. Collabs.

Yeah. I like thinking of it that way. It is fully a collab. Yeah, it's like musicians collabing. They're jamming together. No, it's perfect. It's great. I've just never heard it called that.

Do you think you could get away with putting Mario in your game for just like a few seconds and calling it sampling? It's just a sample. Yeah, see on who sampled. Transformative work. I'm commenting on Mario and jump in. Yes, I'm sure Nintendo's lawyers would totally leave you alone. All right, let's take a break and then we'll be back with one more thing.

Oh, darling, why won't you accept my love? My dear, even though you are a Duke, I could never love you. You, you borrowed a book for me and never returned it. Save yourself from this terrible fate by listening to reading glasses. We'll help you get those borrowed books back. and solve all your other reader problems. Reading glasses every Thursday on Maximum Fun. I'm Emily Heller.

And I'm Lisa Hannawalt. And we're the hosts of Baby Geniuses. We've been doing our podcast for over 10 years. When we started, it was about trying to learn something new every episode. Now it's about us trying to actively get stupider. And it's working. Hang out with us and you'll hear us chat about. Gardening.

Horses. Various problems with our butts. And all the weird stuff. It makes us horny. That's so weird. All that stuff. Baby geniuses, a show for adult idiots. Every other week on Maximum Fun.

Baby geniuses, we know everything. Baby geniuses tell us something we don't know. And we are back. Kirk, Maddie, and it's time for one more thing. Maddie, start us off. Real collection of one more things here. Can't wait to get into it. Mine is a video game called Grand Theft Auto 5 that I can play.

for the very first time in 2023. I never played it back in 2013. Oh, that's so interesting. I'm dying to know what you think. You know, so the reason why I'm playing... Is this because I was playing Red Dead last week? Yeah, that's actually the only reason I'm playing it.

Jason was playing Red Dead 2 last week and I was like, you know what? I want to play a Rockstar game, but I don't want to play Red Dead 2 for some reason. I'm going to play 2013's Grand Theft Auto 5. No, it's because I'm thinking ahead about Grand Theft Auto 6, which supposedly we're going to get a trailer, soon, maybe even at the Game Awards, I don't know.

And I'm like, you know, I haven't played many Grand Theft Autos. They aren't really for me. Or are they? I thought to myself as I installed Grand Theft Auto 5 on my PC, only $15 on Steam at the time of recording. I don't know how much it is at the time of you listening to this listener. And, you know, it's a weird game. Have you two played this game?

Really weird. Oh, yeah. So many times. I'm intimately familiar with it. Really weird. So here's some observations about it. How far are you? I'm like three hours in.

So I got to do the therapy session that kicks the game off. Or I guess I should say the heist kicks the game off. And you learn how to switch characters. The flashback, yeah. Yeah. And then you do a therapy sesh, great therapy sash with a character whose name I don't know. And then you play as Franklin, I want to say. And you hang out with this friend Lamar and you booze some cars and you street race around.

and now I'm just running around the city as Franklin doing stuff. I've gotten that far. So now I can just kind of do what I want. So you have not yet met Trevor, the third protagonist. I'm still Franklin. And there is a key part of this game where as Franklin, you can just sit on the couch and you can watch television and the style of sort of an adult swim cartoon, very sexual cartoon with like an anime girl and like an old guy who's lettrous about her.

And there's weed right there on the coffee table. and then there's a beer that you can drink from in the fridge. And those are all activities you can do right away. Like you can sit down and watch television. You can smoke weed. You can smoke a cigarette. And he'll have lines of dialogue about each of these. And I just am like, you know, I don't think I'm young enough for this game.

Like, I feel like I need to be 13 years old if I'm going to really enjoy. Like, seriously. Like, it sounds like I'm doing a bit here. But like, I'm an adult. I can do any of that stuff now. Like, this is not something where I like need to do it in a game. Do you guys get when I'm doing it? Like, there's something about this game that really feels like it's not for adults.

Like, truly. Like, it feels like it's about a fantasy that I don't have anymore. And, like, that's kind of hard for me to get into now in my adult life. Because I'm just, like, not super connected to it. But also, just politically, the game's kind of fascinating is, like, a snapshot of a specific time. It's funny because this is 10 years earlier, but super reminded me of the movie, crash, which I think was like the early 2000s, which also had a lot of like commentary on LA and cars and race relations of the time and like has two black characters who are sort of the,

the Lamar and Franklin of that movie who kind of like riff about. Yes, yes, of course. You kind of riff about the white characters and are disconnected from them. And like, you know, it just kind of remind me of that. And like that movie obviously came out and then this game probably started development shortly after that because it takes so long to make. So I don't know, if you want a snapshot of a really specific time period and you want to feel like you're 13 years old again, maybe play grand theft.05. It looks great, by the way.

It's been updated so many times. It looks freaking incredible now. It doesn't look like a 2013 game, except I do wish they had mocap for the facial expressions. I mean, if you want a more adult story, you should definitely play Red Dead too. Sure. I mean, that's a newer game. But it's also just a narratively completely different approach. It's like a much more grounded than normal game.

Culture had changed. So much it changed. changed, rockstar changed. Well, and Red Dead has always just been a different narrative universe than Grand Theft Auto. Like Red Dead has some satirical stuff, but it's far more straight, straightly. Yeah, I mean. Yes. Yeah, Grand Theft Auto is trying to be funny.

Like, I guess that's also a piece of it. It's a very, it's turned up to 11. Right. GTA, well, GTA is like South Park style. We're going to set everything on fire. Red Dead is like, we're trying to tell a literary story. And be a Western. Yeah, in GTA, every brand name is a joke.

In Red Dead Redemption, it's just like this is the brand name of some gun. Right. This is just the name of a town. Like, things aren't all jokes. It's just sort of a world. It's much more believable. It's funny. Like, they're chasing different ways of doing prestige, I suppose.

Like, GTA is like the most... GTA isn't trying to be prestigious at all. I mean, I guess not. And, I mean, it's pre-breaking bad. So it's like pre-the- idea of having a gang story or like a thief central and a story or criminal-central story as a hero. It's very sopranos. I mean, Michael is like... as Tony Spron as it gets.

It's just more like when you meet Trevor well keep playing. I'll keep playing. What you're describing is kind of like... It's a lot. GTA 5 contains multitudes. Like it is definitely trying for prestige at times and that's what makes it such a confusing experience. Yeah, that's true. Like the torture stuff.

We could totally go off here but I actually think this like you said last time Jason that Red Dead would be a fun game to return to on the show. So would GTA 5. We would have a lot to say about that game. Yeah, Maddie. I will say it's a really, it's a really, a hard game to really just play a few hours and then like just kind of feel like you've...

I'm well aware. And I guess I should say I do like know a lot about it. I never played it, but I do know whoever is. I know a games journalist for us. I know a lot. Of course. But I just think it's like so it's a very interesting game and it's worth just kind of like exploring more of it because you'll see how totally different like each mission alone can be. It's really... Remember that mission where you're a janitor and they built an entire mechanic for being a janitor? They're just cleaning up the... Because you're like undercover as a janitor-during the ice. You're like scoping out for the heist.

Yeah, that's incredibly funny. It contains multitudes. It really does. Also, it has a crazy cover system. Like, remember cover systems? The combat is terrible. Yeah, well, that's something... Especially because Maxpane 3 came out right around that and Maxpane 3 is so much better as a shooter. It's just like a whole of a league.

No difficulty settings. You've got to just muscle your way through. If there really is a lot next year in games, we should return to GTEA. if I haven't do a whole episode. I might finish it. Or Red Dead too. We should do Red Dead 2. And that's too.

I mean, why not both? All right. I'll go next because Kirk you said you want to go last, right? Okay, my one more thing is interest rates. Classic, one more thing. I saw you wrote that down. Let's get into it. This is either a book or probably just the thing.

Just the thing. No, it's just the thing. Interest rates. I don't know if you guys have noticed this. Maybe you've tried to buy a house. Not yet. Maybe you bought a house this year. Maybe you bought a heart.

interest rates are through the roof. And that has had a lot of repercussions that I don't think people really think about. A lot of people have been wondering, why is it that this year has been so good for gaming but had so many layoffs, so many good games with so many layoffs. There are a lot of reasons for that.

One of them is that, like, if you look at the companies laying people off, most of them are not the companies that released, like, hit games this year. They either release flops this year or, like, haven't released games. But the biggest reason, the biggest explanation for a lot of the problems

that are like all over various industries is interest rates. And the reason for that is that a lot of companies do business by borrowing money. And a lot of tech companies especially are like working on debt a lot of the time. And when you borrow money, you have to pay a certain interest rate. And for a couple of years post-pandemic, it was historically low to the point where like you were essentially getting money for free. and anyone who bought a house in like 2021 and has a mortgage rate of like two and a half or whatever is literally getting money for free because you can put your money in a in a say like a high yield savings account and get 5% interest and you're literally getting money for free so um a lot of

companies did that and expanded and took big bets and took risks using all of this free money that they were borrowing and then suddenly interest rates went up and it was time to pay the paper and suddenly everybody's cutting costs and like looking to read reassure their shareholders and the street that they are not in over their heads and will not have to over leverage themselves trying to pay this debt that they're now stuck in with high interest rates. And I think a really good example of that is Embracer Group, which is the company that kind of infamously over the last few years has gone around buying up a ton of different game studios, including a lot of like, a sub-Trippa ones, double A ones that don't make.

But even double A, it feels like it's insulting when there's some good double A stuff, but a lot of the companies that Embracer was buying up are like, do not have any track record of making hits, or like we're really making stuff that like nobody really paid attention to. And Embracer was just like, nope, we'll just gobble them all up. And a lot of people question the value of that strategy, even as it was happening, but it kind of made sense with that era of low interest rates and being able to like take on debt to make all these acquisitions or not have to worry as much about having to pay interest rates or whatever it was. And now we are entering less certain economic times in large part because of high

interest rates. Again, I'm oversimplifying things. There are bigger factors of play here. But Embracer Group specifically isn't a lot of debt. And that's one of the reasons that it's been laying off hundreds of people and canceling projects and shutting down studios this year, including Volition, which is one of those studios that's been around for 30 years and just kind of got got bought by the wrong conglomerate and is now now in trouble. Yep. And the thing that just kind of, I think, is so unfair and unjust and just like so ridiculous about this whole thing is that the people who are making these decisions never actually

have to suffer from the consequences. If I made a decision, if any of us made a decision at our jobs, well, Kirk isn't really employed, but if Maddie and I made a decision at our jobs. Yeah, that's true. If one of us... I just have a lot of employers, Jason. That's true. He's a bad decision.

But like, if we made decisions that cost our companies, like, bazillions and potentially led to the layoffs of hundreds, like, that's how consequential our decisions would be. We would be reprimanded. We would probably be fired. But the people in charge of these companies, companies, especially the guy at the top of Embracer Group, is still around, still talking about how sad it is. Can't fire me if I'm the boss.

Exactly. Yeah, how to get that job, though? That, I think, I think it's like, I don't think that, like, I think in business, you're going to take bad bets, you're going to make risks, you're going to make moves that don't pan out or like. They would tell us, we don't understand how, how risky it actually is and so on. Well, no. Well, so I think that's, that's normal. that's like accepted, that's fine. And sometimes those risks cost people their jobs without them being like unwittingly. And that also is fine. But the fact that you could cost someone like thousands

of people their jobs and still remain in your position making however much like being CEO of this company, that is not fine. I feel like if you are responsible for the layoffs of hundreds of people, you should step down or be fired. That's my little little soapbox rant there. Anyway, interest rates, if you're wondering why there are so many kind of economical issues and layoffs and turbulence and stuff like that, the answer is usually interest rates. So that's my one more thing is interest rates. I look forward to next week's one more thing, which will be inflation. Jason explains inflation to us. We're going to bring on Ben Bernanke. Somebody's got to explain it to me because I don't get it. I can't wait.

Let's bring on, let's just turn this into an MBA podcast and learn how business works. Kirk, what's your one more thing? My one more thing is a new Netflix show that I watched and was delightfully surprised by called Scott Pilgrim takes off. It's a new Scott Pilgrim adaptation from Brian Leomeli, the author of the original comic books. And I'll say up front that it's just really, really good. And if you're a Scott Pilgrim fan and you don't know anything else about it, you should just go watch it because it's great. And I am going to say some sort of spoilers for the setup of it and what makes it cool. And this, I wanted to go last, just so if you don't want to hear those spoilers, if you

don't want to hear anything about it, you can just stop listening to the episode now. And I'll sort of vamp for another couple of seconds here so they don't just get into it. Vambling for your vamping right now, you're pressing pause. Do a little bit of vamping. But I really, I really think this is fantastic. Emily and I are watching it together because we actually both really like Scott Pilgrim and haven't gotten to the ending yet, but I can just tell that it's going to go to all these cool places. So for starters, this is an anime done by a Japanese production studio. What are they called, Science Saru. And they're great. It's fantastic looking. It's in the art style of O'Malley's work. He co-created this with Ben David Grabinski, who I'm not familiar with.

But Brian Lee O'Malley is amazing. He wrote this whole series and illustrated he did the whole thing by himself. This was like on Oni Press from Toronto in like the early 2000s. He wrote wrote, I think it's like, are there eight books in them or something? And I read them before the movie came out, the Edgar Wright film with Michael Sarah and Mary Elizabeth Winstead and all these other amazing actors. I don't remember what year that movie was, but it was sort of around 2010. Yeah, something like that. Maybe 2009 or something.

Yeah. And what's so cool about this anime is they've gotten the entire cast back, including like, numerous A-lister's have come back to do this because I think everyone who is in that movie really thinks finally on it. So the opening credits, which are done in the kind of classic anime style, there's like a Japanese pop song playing. They've got, they just, there's a point in the credits where they just start listing names

and it's like Chris Evans, Kieran Culkin, Michael Sarah, Mary Elizabeth Winston, and you're like, holy shit, Brie Larson, Allison Pill, Aubrey Plaza. Chris Evans was like a bit part in that movie because it was like pre-Cris Evans era too. So he's just like one of the exes in the movie. It's so great. Yeah. Like it's

I mean, so many people, Brandon Ruth, Jason Schwarzen. Like it's just a completely crazy cast. And I think it really speaks to the love that everybody has for this project that they all agree to do it. And it's very fun to hear them all. Chris Evans is having a great time. So it starts out and it's much the same

as the book and much the same as the movie. The movie notably is like really pairs down a lot of stuff from the books. And I would say, I mean, I would recommend the books to anyone who hasn't read them. They're really, really cool. And there's just like a lot more going on. There's a lot more time with every character. You get much better sense of this

kind of fun, slackers, social scene of the kind of early 2000s Toronto world. Is he less insufferable in the books? I actually think he is less insufferable. But also the characters call him out more for it and that helps a lot. I think Scott is a better developed character

and really everyone is. There's just a lot more time for them. I remember from the books there's a whole long summer period. It's a color issue or a color edition like one of the volumes and it's just like a lot of them being boyfriend and girlfriend Ramona and Scott. And you just kind of get a sense for what a frustrating

boyfriend he is, but also she likes him. They just kind of have a normal relationship. And there's just way more. There's way more Kim Pine. All of the backstories are much more fleshed out in the books. And you just get a much richer sense of this whole story, which is about a guy who like has a pretty checkered past and is not a very good person, quote, unquote. Like he has a lot of growing to do. And that's kind of the point of the story. And then you also just get a sense of all of his friends. So that's what the books were like. And then the movie kind of simplifies that and made it to more of a just fun, razzle-dazzle, egger-write, you know, comic book video game movie. And it's still plenty of fun, but I prefer the books.

And I was psyched for the show because I was like, oh, the show is going to, like, do the books justice. And so it goes through the first episode and, like, it looks like the books. And it's all the same lines from the books and a lot of references. And he gets to the show where they're playing the show. And you know Matthew Patel, the first evil X is about to come in. And he comes in and they like start fighting. And it's the fight. And then they go in.

And it's like the moment when Scott is going to punch Matthew Patel. and instead Matthew Patel punches Scott and Scott like explodes into coins and vanishes and that's the end of the first episode. So what this show does is it flips the whole thing and Scott dies at the beginning and is gone. And so it's called Scott Pilgrim takes off because Scott Pilgrim is suddenly removed from the story.

So it's actually a whole new story and it's kind of a parallel dimension idea. Like it's not like the old story happened. It's not exactly that, but it kind of is implying that. Because remember... It's an alt universe, I suppose, yeah. Well, and this is a world where, like, Ramona Flowers delivers...

In this, she's delivering Netflix DVDs, but she's delivering DVDs by traveling through these subspace things that move through Scott's dreams. Like, there's already a lot of ridiculous sort of metaphysical stuff going on. So it's not that outlandish that maybe we're in some sort of parallel reality. So it's constantly referencing back to the books and to the movies and in a lot of really fun ways. But what it winds up being is Ramona's story, or at least as much as I've watched, where Scott is not fully dead, of course,

because whatever, he doesn't get killed. Like, he's sort of missing and she's trying to find him. But then it winds up being her story as she reengages with each of her exes because Matthew Patel won. So all the exes are just kind of around, like in their league of exes, which is, as they all describe it,

kind of more of a social club, really, and they're just trying to make friends. So she's like meeting up with her exes and kind of hashing out their relationships, which comes up in the books and is kind of a cool thing in the book. where you get the sense of these kind of young, immature heartbreaks that happen to each of them and why they each feel sad.

And it just winds up, it's a really cool show. There's so much space for all these characters. And all those characters are so great. I mean, I always love Knives Chow. And it was always fun to see Knives Chow grow over the course of the book, especially. But here, without Scott around at all, she totally gets to, like, go in all these unexpected directions. We get really cool stuff from Kim Pine, too. It's just like, I don't know, it's such a good idea.

And I feel like, I know Brian Leomeli has really, you know, I think the legacy of these books has always loomed large over him creatively because I think it was a massive undertaking for him. And it was such a hit that, you know, he's done work since then. I've read some of his books. He's a great writer and they're really cool. But I'm sure this has always kind of been there as like his first thing. And I know he's had regrets about it that he's talked about. Like not having enough time for Ramona and Knives is one of the things he cited. So it's interesting that this is the project that he was like, what if I didn't even have my lead. male character at all. Exactly. It's a fun idea, a fun way to deal with like the fact that you're this one hit wonder, quote, unquote. Like you have this big thing that's hanging over you, so why don't take it apart and try to do something new with it? I love that idea. One, you can see like if you think about Dr. Sleep, it's funny. We were talking about Stephen King off the air, but that's Stephen King returning to the Shining and being like, well, what might happen afterward? Like other people who have had major success like that do like to come back and do it. It's very cool to see him do it because, yeah, like you said, Maddie. I think he's talked about having his own complaints about it. And also, it just seems like he was maybe ready to return to this world and these characters and flesh them out. And it makes me really happy that he both found an animation studio that was super up for it and like could make a show that's beautiful looking looking. Like this is the second Netflix animated show I've watched in like two weeks. That's just blown me away with how incredible looking it is and like beautiful and artistic and cool. By the way, the music is by Anamonaguchi. The killer chip tune band who did the music for the Ubisoft beat him up.

Scott Pilgring. That soundtrack, like that sound track. And that game has one of the best game soundtracks in all time. I've listened to the soundtrack more than I've played that game. So the music is super good. It's like it's this all-star production

in the service of telling a news story about these characters. So I really, really recommend it to anyone who likes Scott Pilgrim. And if you saw the movie and haven't read the books, I really recommend the books. They're so much fun. I've read them a few times.

Like I just kind of go back to them and I love them. They're so cozy. They're so like early 2000s vibes in so many ways. and I just think that Brian Leomeli is a great writer and a really great artist. So the books are super cool. And I think the show, you'll get even more out of the show if you've read the books. So that's my recommendation.

An unexpected delight. Just a really surprising and very cool thing. Very cool. All right. That is it for this week's episode. Happy Thanksgiving to both of you and to everybody out there. To you as well. I hope you all enjoy family and food and football and whatever else you do.

Spatchcocking, Maine. Yeah. Spatch cocking. A little bit of spatch cocking. Just let your pants down and let your pants down and do this. Well, if we put it on our relationship show, it'll be called spatch cucking. God damn it. And with that, we'll see you next week.

See you guys next week. See you next week. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes.

Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at Maximumfund.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at Triple ClickPod. Send email the triple click at maximum fun.org and find a link to our discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximum Fun. of artist-owned shows. Supported directly by you.