Triple Click - How's Starcraft II Hold Up In 2023?

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

Has StarCraft II aged well? What's with all the proper nouns? And how does it feel to play an old RTS game in 2023? This week, Triple Click revisits Blizzard's classic strategy game, playing through a chunk of Legacy of the Void and some multiplayer... for Aiur!One More Thing:Kirk: Overcooked 2Maddy: Barbie (2023)Jason: It’s Not TV: The Spectacular Rise, Revolution, and Future of HBO (John Koblin and Felix Gillette)LINKS:Triple Click on Twitch: https://twitch.tv/tripleclickpod (Starcraft 2 Stream July 21 at 8PM Eastern)Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy Triple Click Merch: https://maxfunstore.com/search?q=triple+click&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

Combat is the anvil of will. And you had better put that anvil on a hot key, by the way? Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week we are talking about StarCraft 2. We're playing the Legacy of the Void campaign, which is the Protost campaign. We're getting our tactical skills backup, or in Jason's case, they're already there. I'm Maddie Myers. I'm Jason Schreier.

And I'm Kirk Hamilton, and hello. Hello. Hi there. Again, it's us. Again. Again. It is us coming at, yeah, from a blistering heat wave hitting all of the United States. Yeah, all of the world, all the northern hemisphere.

Except for San Francisco. San Francisco is like 62 degrees. And foggy, like always. It's their blessing and their curse. They're in the day. It's their persona for our ass reality. Yeah, I don't know about that. I'm inside with the air conditioning right, right this second.

So I'm feeling great. And that is not a segue into what I'm going to say next, which is also great, which is the network we're on. Max is fun. It's the air conditioning of podcast networks. It is the air conditioning of podcasts because it refines the air. It's cool and refresh. It goes to sound waves.

It keeps them cool. The sound waves are cool. You're cool if you're a member. It dehumidifies. That works. Yeah. If you're thinking, boy, I want to like recondition my support for triple click and other great Great podcast on the MaxFund Network.

Then you could go to Maximumfund.org slash join. And if you were to become a member, you would get a monthly bonus episode. You sure would. And from us specifically. Not just like a monthly bonus episode from who knows who. You get one from us triple click once a month. And the one we're going to do this month is about an Apple TV Plus show called Silo. There's one season out.

We're going to spill the beans about it. I loved it. Yes. Kirk loved it. It's very cool. We foisted it on Jason. I'm not sure he's done yet. So Jason, you don't have to weigh in. But it's really cool. People should watch it. So we're going to talk about that and also post-apocalyptic stories because it is very much one of those. And so, yeah, become a member. Check that out. Check out the app. Maximumfund.org slash join. You'll get a whole backlog of other cool episodes we've recorded about all kinds of other things. And BGdubs, you might be thinking yourself, hey, Maddie, that's a television show. Isn't this a video game podcast? And you're not wrong. Silo is not a video game. It's kind of like Fallout, but it is not a video game.

It is a TV show. And hey, great news. We're going to record a Beanscast about Tears of the Kingdom next month. That'll be in August. You have that long to finish the game, which I still have to do. Me too. But I'm getting close. I've been collecting my dragons tears.

I've been getting my little dribs and drabs of plot. So yeah, Maximof Fund.orgs. join is the URL to obtain all of that lovely content. And hey, here's something you don't even have to pay for. We're going to do a little stream on our Twitch channel where we force Jason to teach us how to play StarCraft 2 super well. And maybe I'll even play a little bit of it not super well, but like kind of okay at our Twitch channel, which I believe is triple click pod on Twitch.tv. So that's this June 21st, July 21st at 8 p.m.

It's not June. It's July 21st at 8 p.m. That's a Friday night. So mark your calendar. Come watch us play some StarCraft. And we have one other thing to get to before we get into the thick meat of today's StarCraft app. Jason, do you want to address this next little piece of info?

Yes. So last week, this is extremely strange. It is. written email from somebody named Benjamin Hansen about that mentioned Tim Schaefer and Psych Odyssey and MinMax and our show and so on and so on. And then we found out later that it was not in fact the Ben Hansen who we assumed it was because it turns out there is someone else who coincidentally has the same name Ben Hansen who talks about MinMax the show and listens to Triple Click and is also obsessed with the Psychonauts Odyssey documentary. A little strange that Mr.

Benjamin Nansen didn't mention somewhere in his email. Hey, I am not Ben Hansen. I have the same exact name as a guy who you might think would say. I mean, fair enough, maybe he had the name first. He might be older and he had it first. And why should he, you know, it's a Michael Bolton situation. Why should I change my name? He's the one who sucks.

Though in this case, we do love both Ben Hanson. Probably less animosity. Like wonderful people. Yes. Both Ben Hanson seem cool as far as so I know. With apologies to both Ben Hansons for thinking that Ben Hanson. Vincent of Ben Max wrote us an email. Well, if I'm handsome,

Minx was a very good sport about the misfire on our part, I don't know how Benjamin Hansen feels about it. Like, is he going to listen to the app and perhaps write as a follow-up email and be like, hey, I'm not that Ben Hanson. I don't know. We haven't heard from Benzman. It can become a very confusing battle. By the way, I have an email here from Chris Plant.

It says Christopher Plant writing in. He's got some opinions to share about Zelda. I have an email from, Deo-Kajima here? Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay, so on with the show.

Today we're talking about StarCraft 2. So as you guys both know and many of our listeners know, we have a annual predictions bet where whoever wins gets to pick a game for the show to play. This year, it was a tie. Maddie and I both won. Earlier this year, we played Perfect Dark on the N64. I guess the Xbox version of the N-Sv4 game. We didn't play it on the N64. That would have been cool. We played it on Xbox. That would have been

not cool. It would have been really cool. And you're both lucky I didn't make you do that. And my game was StarCraft 2. So the three of us have been playing StarCraft. We've been playing the Legacy of the Void campaign for people who don't know. StarCraft 2 is kind of divided into three releases, each one based on one of the three races, Terran, Zerg, and Protas. And we've been playing the Protas one. We all have been playing a chunk of it. I don't really think we picked kind of a point where we're going to stop, but we're going to get into it. We're going to get into the little bit of the story. We're going to talk about the game and the appeal of RTS games and such. This, of course, is a strategy game developed by Blizzard Entertainment, Legacy of the

Void. The version we're playing was released in 2015, hilariously on the same exact day as Fallout 4. And one interesting bit of context here is that, while RTS games had a humongous boom in the late 90s, early 2000s, they kind of died out a little bit, became much less popular throughout the 2000s, and they were actually kind of replaced in a lot of people's heads by so-called mobas,

aka Dota Likes, AKA League of Legends, and Dota 2, and Blizzard's own Heroes of the Storm, which also came out in 2015. And so a lot of people whose minds were kind of like built for RTS games switched to mobas, and Moba's wound up bringing in a lot of newer players as well, as the RTS genre was seen as kind of fading.

But still, StarCraft 2 was always around. It reigns supreme. It was frigging StarCraft. This is a national sport in Korea back in the day. I believe the stat is that one out of every 10 Koreans had a copy of StarCraft, like 10%. The number of copies sold in Korea equated to 10% of South Korea's population. So StarCraft 2, we've all been playing it. I have many thoughts on it, but I would love to hear what you guys think.

Maddie, why don't you start us off? Give us your first impressions of StarCraft II, Legacy of the Void. Sure. So I'm having a wonderful time playing StarCraft 2. I did play Wings of Liberty, which is the Terran campaign that StarCraft 2 launched with. Didn't launch with all three campaigns. You played in the past. Yes, in the past.

When it launched, I played Wings of Liberty. And then continued to play StarCraft 2 on and off for a couple years after. that, always enjoyed it, but didn't stick around and play the Zerg and Protas campaigns. Although I've always been most interested in Protas. That's my preferred Starcraft race to play as. So this feels like me finally filling in a gap of something that I always would have enjoyed and I am predictably really enjoying it. It is a blast from the past for my brain and muscle memory in a really fun way. I feel like I had a rocky but fascinating learning curve of remembering certain shortcuts and completely forgetting other ones in the way that you could only have when you played a lot of Starcraft 10 years ago and haven't really touched it since. I don't.

I'm still learning, let's say. We'll see how I am by Friday in terms of remembering all my shortcuts. But I'm up to just plot wise, I'm up to the Mobius core missions. I've met good old Jim Rainer. I'm on the part of the game where you have like a base where you can walk around and talk to people. And you have like a little mission table where you can select missions. And so I think that's kind of like a logical place to say that the first act of the game is complete. And now the real game begins.

Now I have fast travel to planets and stuff. But yeah, I don't know what's going on in the story. Really enjoying the video game. A lot of pap for a nuns. Yeah, I don't know. There's some aliens. We can get into it. But yeah, I'm digging it a lot.

I'm really glad to finally cross this off my personal bucket list and be playing Legacy of the Voie. Quite about you. Nice. Yeah, I'm really enjoying it too. And like you, Maddie, it's coming back to me. I also played Wings of Liberty. And then I also played the most of the, what's it called? The Heart of the Swarm.

Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. I played most of that as well. When it came out, yeah, because I think I was already at Kotaku at the time and Jason was into the series and had told me, hey, you should play this. It's really good. And I played it and I liked it. I don't think I finished that campaign, but I played it. And it was the same feeling playing that where I kind of remembered how to play, but I've never become all that

proficient at these games and never played competitive. So you kind of just, there's a whole other level that you need to reach if you're playing competitive, which I am perfectly fine, not even trying because this game is so complicated. I was getting just whooped on normal difficulty at first and then put it down to casual. And then I was just stomping everything. And so I kind of put it back to normal. It's pretty easy. There's a big golf there.

I think normal is fine for me now that I kind of have got my sea legs again. There were just a few things that I had just not picked up. It really throws you into the deep end a little bit just because this is the third expansion. And it definitely is like, yeah, you know how to play StarCraft right? And I'm like, it's been a minute, guys. I don't actually. No. So there's just some of the sort of, what is it, macro and micro,

some of the macro of just like how to manage your base, what each thing does, what you should be doing in which order, was a little lost on me. And I was playing, I think it's like the third mission where it's like the first actual mission where you have a base. And I was just getting stomped because I kind of forgot about, like I didn't internalize that you can use your, the spear of a dune.

Is that what it's called? The sort of spaceship that you have to warp. in pylons, which is a really crucial thing to do. That is what that mission is attempting to teach you, in fact, but it sure does rush you on through it. Every mission kind of rushes you through those basics, I would say. Yes. Once you have the basics down and you realize what it's going to be teaching you, your brain kind of, you know, I had kind of internalized, okay, there are these five different categories of thing and I'm going to be getting one or two new things each mission. You know, it really does kind of carry you through them and it's really fun. So once I've got that down

and I'm kind of back in the groove. Yeah, I'm really enjoying myself. This game's super fun. I'm really just struck by what it feels like to play it, what this style of game feels like, because I haven't played a game this complex, or a game with this kind of an interface that's a mouse and keyboard PC game.

Yeah, you've got to be at your desk to play StarCraft. No lying on the couch playing Steam Deck for any of the three of us. So that's made me just reflect on the way that games have changed and the way that this type of complex multiplayer-focused game has changed, which is something that we can talk about. But, yeah, basically, I'm enjoying myself. And to just say where I'm at in this story, I'm pretty far. I'm like, I think in the kind of final act where you have to go and do one last battle,

I'm awakening the Cyborg Army right now. And then I'm going to go and sort of take on the, what do they call the Talverash or something like that, the bad protas before we go and then we fight the big JRP God dude at the end. And then, so I think I've got like, aim on, yeah. So I've got like probably six or seven missions. Yeah, there's a, there's a super, one of my favorite missions. You might have done this already? No, you haven't fought Alarach yet.

There's a great mission where you do like this tug of war with Alarach across a map that you will enjoy. The single player campaign in this game is full of like really interesting missions, I think, really unique design stuff. Some of them in particular are fun. But yeah, we can get into those. I'm curious, have you played the whole thing through Jason? and how did you find it coming back to it? Well, no, I haven't played it on this. I actually played through the whole thing like a year or two ago, so it's pretty fresh in my mind.

But before you bet us, you played through it so you think that that counts. Does that count? No, no, no, no, no, no. He's not saying that. No, no, you misunderstood. I'm saying that on this replay, this current replay, I have not played through the whole thing. So how far are you? Oh, on this replay, I did all the Dark Templar stuff, all the stuff in I are,

and I did all the Mobia stuff. and so I'm just after that. You're like a little further than I have. Okay. As long as you're playing. As long as you're playing. Kirk is like pre-man about something Jason didn't even say. You think I'm not going to play StarCraft?

I mean, come on. In addition to this, I've also been playing multiplayer one v one like every night. Come on, man. I do want to get good enough to get back in the mix because I just, we got to clarify that was part of the bet was that we would play a little multiplayer, which at my current level sounds terrifying. But believe it or not, Kirk, there was a time when I did play some Starcraft multiplayer. And I was never, I was never like high up on the ladder.

But I certainly enjoyed getting in the mix and playing some multi. You've always been a competitive gamer. Yeah. And I'm, I'm old now and my reflexes are gone. But I want to get back to it. It's like playing it again just puts you in that mindset of like, oh, yeah. What if I could just see like minority report style like, oh, my armies. Like, that is the kind of game this is. Like, you can enter flow state and just be like,

I'm controlling everyone. I see all the dots. Everyone around me is under my powers. Like, that is how StarCraft makes you feel in ways that almost no other competitive game ever makes me feel. And it's such a great feeling to get to. I want to try and reach it again this time around. So I think that an interesting thing about StarCraft as a competitive game is the sort of the way that your attention is dispersed into the game. Because it's very, very different from most of the games, most popular multiplayer games now, where you have a single focal point.

And I actually think that mobas are an interesting shift because they represented real-time games like StarCraft shifting more into that single focal point style of game design. So playing this, that's the thing that strikes me. I mostly play by just making a big army and then I assign it to number one. and then that's my army and I move them around. And then occasionally, like, I'll have aerial units and ground units.

I'll have one and two. And even then, the complexity of that of managing it. Well, my aerial units are coming around here, but I also need to get my ground units around. But that means I need to have hotkeys on the map so that I can really quickly assign waypoints, keep track of things. So there's this kind of diffuse attention that you need to have.

And then I've been watching some matches and I watched some training videos as well, just to kind of remember what it's like for people to play multiple. I've never really played this game multiplayer. And it's just interesting how that, you have to be in a mindset to manage a bunch of stuff at once. And you're going between macro and micro really quickly and shifting gears

and like moving these guys there and these guys there and you have maybe just one character that you're using to kind of move across the map to check things out. So compare that to a fighting game, for example, which is just as complicated in a way because your character is very complicated. There are a lot of moves to keep track of. There's a whole, like, you know, there are your opponent's moves.

A lot of mind games similar to Starcraft. It's very much an intimidation mind games, faint, fainting, etc. Yeah. So it has all these, it has like these big picture things that are sort of similar, but it's crucially different in that there's this one point of focus. It's just your character fighting.

And a mobile game kind of takes the, it's like a fighting game mixed with an RTS because you have a single character. There's some story missions where you're playing the hero characters. You know, you're playing as, what's the same as? Or you're playing as Carrigan and then what's the main guy's name? Artanus.

Artanis, thank you. So you're playing as Artanis and it kind of is like proto-Moba. Anyways, I think that that whole thing is interesting and I'm curious what the two of you think of that kind of shift away from this broad focus and toward a kind of singular focus when it comes to competitive gaming. Well, that's why RTS fans always complain about

moba's like simplifying everything and removing a lot of the the skill, the learning curve, although there is plenty of learning curve with Dota and League of Legend. Yeah. I think that it's interesting to hear. That's definitely the issue with those games. It's interesting to hear your thoughts on that. I want, is that something, before I answer your question, is that something you've gotten

from playing the single player campaign also or just from learning and reading up on the multiplayer one of you want? Um, both. So I've been, um, so I've been watching some day nine videos, which were, just interesting and not that applicable to the single player just because you don't need to be learning the habits that he's teaching. They're pretty cool though. Like it's fun just to watch his tips because it gives me a sense of the things you need to get better at like with your mouse discipline and you're kind of speeding up your hotkeys and stuff. But I haven't really

had to learn that for the campaign. But no, playing the campaign too. I mean, the campaign is training you for PVP. Like it is all the same stuff. And there's still that feeling. I constantly feel overwhelmed playing this because it's been a really long time since I played a game where I'm having to think about eight or nine different things like there's these you know different timers going my research station is upgrading my weapons I'm having to track three different types of resource so how much space I have for everybody how much vespian gas I have and how many crystals or whatever I have you must construct additional pylons as well like you got oh my goodness must I ever construct additional pylons always need to construct pylons so it's that that thing of like I'm

really trying to keep track of all of this stuff, plus the location of my characters and my army on the map. And, like, if I break my army into one or two and then I have a defensive force, then it's three different armies. That's a wild feeling for my brain and has made me realize that I have just gravitated away from this kind of game in general. But also, I think that, like, the video game industry has gravitated away from this kind of game as well. And it's just much more common to play a game where you're one character. And there's maybe a lot going on. It's a complicated character who can do a whole lot of different things, but it's a very different headspace. So I'm definitely noticing that in single player as well. I don't know. I've seen the number of Google

Chrome tabs people have. If you have like 40 Google Chrome tabs, you can play StarCraft too. So, okay, so I think it's really interesting. And I think the StarCraft 2 campaign, one of the things that really strikes me about playing it more recently is that it really does do a good job of teaching you how to multitask, because at least on I'm playing on the brutal difficulty. So also I have to like pay attention to first of all your macro. So training your units, recruiting workers and harvesting and building stuff.

And also your main army, but then also setting up defenses because you're constantly going to be attacked by enemies. I actually was pleasantly surprised at like how good the single player is at teaching you some of that stuff. Or well, not teaching isn't like giving you tutorial prompts, but teaching isn't like making you learn how to do it or else you can die. if you don't protect your base. The single player has a lot of things that are kind of built in for the player that make it easier to win, including the Spear of Adun abilities, which get more powerful over time,

and you can customize them and upgrade them and stuff. And also the different, the kind of units that you can select from, where for each unit you get three different options, and that's cool to play around with. And none of that stuff is in the multiplayer, which is a lot more like, these are the units, this is how it works. Everyone is mirrored, same experience no matter what. but it's cool that the single player campaign does such a good job of being like no you will lose

unless you build multiple gateways and like understand that you cannot just have all your units coming out of like one gateway and you cannot just keep like 10 probes going you have to keep recruiting probes and stuff like that so that's pretty cool I think that like there are a few tips and tricks you can kind of learn that make the multiplayer or the multi-focus element of it all a little bit more palatable. The most important thing is to keep all your buildings on hockey and to just like, while your focus might be on your army, to keep being like, okay, here's my factory hockey.

I'm going to train an immortal. Oh, that immortal is almost done. I'm going to do that. And to not rely on the cues for that sort of thing. Another thing is just kind of like knowing where to focus and knowing that like, okay, I'm going to be zipping back and forth between my base and my army and not worry as much about the other stuff. But in multiplayer, it's really interesting because I've found over many, many hundreds of hours of playing multiplayer in this game that you do have to be able to focus on multiple points at a time and be multitasking constantly.

But also, it's not quite as important as you would think, at least on kind of like an average competitive level. Like obviously, if you're facing grandmaster level players, you need to be able to do everything. There's a stat. I don't know if you guys are familiar with this, called APM or actions per minute. Oh, yeah. And I've watched the videos of the very high APM players playing where it's the most incredible thing you've ever seen. The best players are like, yeah, I mean, 300, 400 actions per minute, which is kind of

like unfathomable for us mortals, or us people who are older than 18. The complexity, watching somebody with a high APM play StarCraft 2 is in no way to me dissimilar than watching a master pianist. Like it really is that same feeling of like, okay, so you spend thousands of hours training your brain and body to do this incredible thing. Yeah. So on the average ladder player, like if you guys went in and tried playing some one v1, you don't need to be able to do that. And you don't even need to be able to focus on more than like three different areas of attention at a time. And most of the time, if you are like, if you have your fundamentals in place, if you're like spending your money and remembering to do that, if you're remembering to like expand, if you're remembering to, like, expand.

if you're remembering to scout, if you're remembering to like harass a little bit, you can just kind of win pretty consistently without being able to like zoom around the map at like 400 miles per hour, clicking on everything at once. And a lot of times your player, your opposing opponent player is also struggling with that multi-focus kind of problem with that their focal, not knowing where to focus, not remembering to pay attention to every little thing. So there's no like very few people are playing perfect. and you can kind of take advantage of that as you play, at least in the multiplayer. And I'm curious to hear more about that when you guys dive into that.

Yeah, I feel like that split focus is also what makes the game fun. And again, different from every other game, but that sense of being overwhelmed by both the choices that you can make, but also like constant progress bars is very pleasurable in like an addictive human experience kind of way. because it's, I don't know, man, it's a dopamine machine, at least for me, to just always have something else in the game that you can click on, where it's not just like from a competitive mindset, but like, okay, like I set my guys up here and, oh, wait, I wanted to also send these guys there. Like, you literally always have six other things on the to-do list. Do you know what I mean?

Like, you never are at a standstill. There's never a moment where you're like, boy, I'm not sure what I should do next. the StarCraft 2 match. Let me just sit back and consider. Like you really, you can never do that and you have to always be making decisions, which I would say is actually pretty different from a fighting game where you might actually kind of sit back and like play footsies with someone or like kind of just be doing some mind game stuff. And I'm sure other sort of focal point geared games are similar to that in the sense that maybe you don't always have to be literally moving. But in StarCraft, you do. Like every second, it's like, well, at the very least they could go build some more workers.

Like if everything else is set up, I guess I'd better just go get some more freaking minerals. Like there is literally always something to do. And that, I mean, I've described flow state, but it's also like ultimate dopamine state at the same time. Like it's, I get why it's overwhelming, Kirk, and maybe not pleasant. But like, if I'm in a good vibe playing StarCraft,

it can be one of the most powerful gaming experiences ever. or it can be the worst thing ever because getting overwhelmed and already falling behind and knowing you'll never catch up is terrible. Like that I will never catch up feeling that can happen is very unique to StarCraft in this type of game too, I think, and is so stressful to be in, especially if you feel like you almost can catch up. You know what I mean? Well, when you're playing multiplayer, that isn't really a thing because there's so little friction

to starting a new match. Like if you feel overwhelmed, you just tap out. Yes, of course. And a match is like like five to ten minutes on average. So there's really not a lot of like, oh, God, what am I going to do? And you're stuck for 10 minutes or anything like that. You just tap out and. But like in the campaign, it can definitely happen where you're like, I don't know if I need to restart this.

Because like I already have everything set up. But oh my God, I'm like starting to get overwhelmed or like I just made one stupid decision early on. And now I don't know what I'm doing anymore. I don't know. I still think even that method of losing can. be fascinating in ways that other games don't necessarily provide. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, you're nailing the crucial difference between this experience and the other ones for sure. And yeah, I don't find that unpleasant at all. I hope I didn't give that impression. I think this is really

fun and it's very different. And I can certainly see how when you've mastered it, it's that feeling of your, the whole kitchen is going. It's funny, my one more thing is overcooked too, which it has that feeling of like once. That game stresses me the heck out actually. Well, and it's not dissimilar, right? No, it's a team. It's a cooperative game. But once you get the whole kitchen cooking for those brief moments where like the pasta's going and you're simmering the tomatoes and someone's cutting the meat and someone's doing

the dishes and the whole thing is working, it's that feeling of, you know, a really functional kitchen where everything is going at once. And it's hard to get it there. But StarCraft 2 is very much a kitchen. I mean, a lot of it feels like it's all prep. Like you're, you know, all that macro stuff that you're doing is kind of making sure. sure that you're spending all of your resources, not having any resource buildup, making sure that you're always training and always getting some new units out there and being maximally efficient.

And I can imagine that once you have those fundamentals that Jason you're talking about down, that that's a very satisfying feeling. That's actually the thing that I want to learn how to do. I think with the multiplayer part of this game, that the more, I think I'm going to just do some training, trying to get my fundamentals down, because to me at least, that's the most interesting thing, not just going and getting worked by someone who is better at the game than me, but actually trying to learn those basics, the basics of how to very quickly tell, basically macro, the quick macro stuff where you have, so Jason, you said hotkeys for different

buildings, like for your different buildings to, you can just like hit that button, the building comes up, and then you press whatever you want it to do and it starts training the unit. Is that how that works? Oh, man. I can't believe you played as much as you have with that hockeying building. So that's crazy. Yeah, I'm bad.

I'm bad. No, no. I just use the hotkey for the camera. But yeah, I kind of just go back to my base and I select the thing. It's actually a failure of the game that you're able to play that long without, like, being able to, like, without learning to do such a core. It doesn't tell you anything on hotkeys. Hotkeys are seriously just not mentioned by the game.

So we should say, okay, so the game does have tutorials. None of us have played them because they're not like popping up for you. They're not obvious. You have to go and find the tutorials within the UI. And also starting with Wings. of liberty teaches you a little bit more. That said, yes, so one of the fundamental things that you're going to be doing in StarCraft, and this will save you a lot of time and make you feel a lot less stressed while you're playing is you assign your buildings, the units, and then

you, well, actually, with protests with gateway units, you don't need a high key for the gateways because you just hit W and then you warp them in wherever. I assume you are upgrading your gateways to be warp. Yes. So, but yeah, you're, that's why, so you never think about like, so I have my nexus always set to one. And so while I'm doing anything, I'm constantly hitting one, making sure that there's a probe being trained in the nexus because there should never not be a point really. Like most matches don't get far enough that you shouldn't be training workers. So whenever I'm doing anything, I'm constantly being like, okay, one E, one E, making sure that there's a probe there. Making sure that I check my factories and make sure there's something coming out of him.

There should always really be something coming out of every building you have. And if you are at a point where you can't afford to spend money on like every single building you have, then you've made too many buildings and your economy isn't set up right? Like that's part of the fundamentals is making sure you're constantly training out of every single building that you have. So to ask you a question on that, it seems like one thing that you want to learn is a kind of strategy going in that you know what buildings you're going to want to build going in. So you know you want to forge because you're going to be focusing on ground units and you need the forage to make the ground units more powerful. So you're going to focus on a forge, but then maybe not a cybernetics center because you're not going to

need the units that that makes possible. So you kind of have to have both the knowledge of, like the physical keyboard knowledge of, okay, I know that it's going to be one E, one E. I know I have these all kind of memorize these quick, you know, shortcuts. And then also the kind of, even it's like the meta macro knowledge or something of what strategy you're doing going in so that you're not building needless buildings and wasting resources. Is that right? So in multiplayer, it actually you can simplify it for yourself by memorizing what's called a build order. And so you come up with the you find a good one. And they're all pretty straightforward.

And I'm like, here's when you build a gateway. And it's all, it's based on the number of probes you have at the beginning of the game. So you'll be like, okay, I'm at 13 probes. Now it's time to send one and build a pylon. Now I'm going to build a gateway. You'll always have a cybernetic score, by the way, unless you're like cannon rushing or something. Can I ask you some build order questions? Yeah.

Well, no, I want to wait. Can I ask you one build order question? Yeah, yeah, please. When do you start mining Vespine and like how do you approach Vespine gas compared with crystals or whatever they're called? So in multiplayer, I assume we're talking about multiplayer here. But it depends. It depends on your order. That'll be part of a build order.

So like my typical Protas build order might be to go and send out a probe at, I don't know, 12 or 13 probes whenever it is. And then you build a pylon. And then after that, you build a gateway. And then after I build my gateway, maybe I'll send that probe out to scowlough. And then at the same time, I'll start building an assimilator to start getting vespine gas out of there. And then, et cetera, et cetera. One other important tip, by the way, this is turning into like StarCraft 2 lessons. No, this is good.

This is like exactly what I think we should be talking about. One important tip is that if you hold shift, you can queue up actions. So like if you want to build something. I learned that from day nine. I've been doing that. This was a huge deal to me in 2014 or whatever. Like when my friend finally showed me that I was like, oh my God. why didn't I know this?

And these are all, I mean, you don't really need build orders for the single player campaign. It's a lot more loose with what you can do. You have a lot more flexibility. It's fun to happen. Yeah, I mean, a builder, but a builder is generally like once you play enough StarCraft 2 multiplayer, you'll have a rhythm where you'll be like, okay, I know exactly what time. This has to happen. This has to happen.

This has to happen. And then very quickly, this doesn't take a lot of experience semester, but very quickly when you're playing against other people, you'll have to happen. scout and you'll be like, oh, this Zerg player should have an expansion right now. And if they don't have an expansion, that means they're rushing me. And so I need to defend accordingly. Pretty much every possible outcome at any point, you can kind of figure out because you can read and you can scout and read what your opponent is doing. Like you recognize certain openings at a certain point. And you're like, oh, they're doing this. Okay. It's like chess, but if there were three very different sets of pieces,

which is actually a really interesting thing about this game. I know. So I love the tabletop game, Root. Remind me neither of you have played Root, right? You don't know Root? No. Root is another asymmetrical competitive game where it's a tabletop game,

but it's the same idea where there are very, very different factions. And I think there's four or five different ones, but they've added them to the game. And really, for my group, we had to all play each faction multiple times until we were all good enough to actually get into it and have an entertaining game. because then you start to be like, okay, I know what the Woodland Alliance is trying to do here.

I'm on to you because I've played you. And I feel like in competitive StarCraft, it's probably kind of similar where it really helps if you understand the other groups. I think that's why the three campaigns are structured the way that they are. It is so that you can play all three. And even if you're like, I'm never really going to play a Zergen competitive, if you play the whole campaign, you have probably a pretty good sense of how they operate. It's why when the game launched I was a little sad, along with many other people, that it only launched with the Taryn campaign.

Because at first I was like, well, I kind of know how to play Taryn, but I don't really know a lot about these other two races. Because StarCraft, too, was my first ever and only StarCraft. I haven't played the other ones. And I didn't really know how to play the other two races until a friend sat me down and was like, here's a bunch of tips and tricks, press shift, by the way. And also, like, here's how to play Zerg and Protas. And until that point, I was like, I really don't know how to do this.

Like, I like this game, but I don't really know what I'm doing. And I don't know how to get better. at this point with all three campaigns, I feel like you could play all three and then be pretty well set up to head into multiplayer. Well, maybe a couple day nine videos. Yeah, his videos are pretty great. And then you're pretty well set up for the foundation, because by that point, no matter which of the three you've selected, you kind of know how all of them operate and what all of their buildings look like so that when you scout them, you're like, okay, that's like what a forge looks like. That's what their equivalent of a cybernetic score looks like.

because that's all you really need to know is what they're doing, build order-wise. You definitely, you need their buildings and you need to know all their units because you need to know what counters each of their units. You need to know like, oh, hey, this Zerg is going roaches. I'm going to go immortals to counter them or whatever you choose to do. I just want to shout out before we run out of time here, I just want to point out that I think one of the things that has made StarCraft too so appealing,

at least to me personally, but really I think has given it its life, is that like it's so meticulously just kind of constructed and crafted and polished and like the way everything looks and feels is just so great playing around with blink stalkers is one of my favorite things to do because it's just so satisfying to make them blink yeah like from one place to another it's great yeah it feels good when you have when you have an immortal and you have a like a group of immortals like going into like a a friggin hybrid enemy and just like chomping away at its health that's just so much fun to watch like the tanky shots and everything about the game is just like so it looks so good it sounds so good

man the music is so good and it just feels so good to play um i've been kind of skipping a lot of the cutscenes because the story and these can we talk a little bit about the story i think the story yeah so everything else i just want to shout out too yeah i love the way this feels like the apex and maybe the sort of post apex of this kind of unbelievably dense blizzard style MMO style world building with just incredible amounts of lore, incredible amounts of proper nouns and just it's so hard to keep track of

because we're at the end of this saga that started in what, 2010? Did you watch the story so far video? Because it's amazing and so absurd. It's like 20 minutes long. It's probably not literally 20 minutes, but it feels like six hours long and it is just pure unfiltered proper nouns.

And it just keeps being this, this, bless this narrator, he's being like, and then the proper noun came to the proper noun. And the proper noun, noun, noun, noun. And then it's a stown. I want to play you both a cutscene that I came across last night that just had me rolling on the floor. And I want you to hear it because it's so funny. I was given a director by Oggdaris himself to come to Glacius and serve the Templar.

It is the last recollection from his memory. Web. The great Templar were still encoded by order of the conclave. Do you know about the experimentation done on Glacius? Why? Al-Daris gave you this order. I am a warrior, old friend. You know this as well as any. It is not my place. It's so simple. It was the last recollection from his memory web. This is the stuff that makes me just picture the voice actors in the studio being like, Yep, memory web. No worries. The Templars. I am adjudicator.

So it's just this stuff over and over and over again where you're just watching these guys just be like, the memory web and then the adjudicators and the ancient order of the. And the stasis. You know, I got to say like at the same time as these cutscenes, those are the like in-engine cutscenes where they're all just sitting around talking. The pre-rendered cutscenes are bonkers in this game. They're amazing. And it's, it's, I don't know, it's a testament to Blue. lizard's long-standing ability to make those little cinematics. There's one, the one where the main character, like, reactivates this ancient core, and he's, like, overwhelmed by Zurich, and then he's, like, has this amazing heroic moment where he rises up and just destroys them all.

And I do get kind of pumped up watching them. So the story is just pure weapons-grade nonsense, but I'm still sort of enjoying it. And it's a fun culmination for this whole game. I mean, they're bringing all the characters back, like everyone's coming back for this sort of grand finale. And it feels like it, even though I don't really remember everything that happened in the first two chapters. The Protas is especially dense with lore and proper nouns. I think if you play Wings of Liberty, it feels a little bit more like, hey, this is a Western, and we've got this year. It's Starship Troopers, aliens, and Independence Day, right?

And then the aliens are kind of also Starship Troopers. You said 2010, but really this is a saga that started in 1998. A lot of story threads were set up with the original and Brood War, especially. There's some like cliffhangers in Brood War that aren't resolved until Legacy of the Voids. Sure, all the stuff with Kerrigan. In the making. And yeah, well, also like there's a character named Stukov who comes back at the end of Legacy of the Void and I won't get into all the details. But yeah, it's pretty wild.

I've always enjoyed it. I like the lower. What I don't like actually is the kind of the Kerrigan-Reynor plot, which is kind of forced in. Kerrigan's too good for him. We all know it. It's weird. It's like he spends the entire first game bringing her human, like making her human.

And then she just goes and spends the entire second game going Zerg. Again, it's all very strange. It's very silly, but it's also like good because when she became human, that was the worst ever. And I feel like maybe everyone there at Blizzard was just like, you know what? It was great when she was the queen of blades. We should just ever be that again. What are we thinking? Okay, it's the type of, it's the type of thing.

Well, yeah, and also the Carrague and Rainer love story didn't make sense in the first place. Because, like, the first game didn't have them as, like, lovers or having, have anything in between them. And then it was kind of set up by a novel in between the first and the second games. And then it became the crux of, like, the story in Wings of Liberty in StarCraft, too. What I want is, I want to watch a bunch of guys with no faces, just monologuing at one another. And that's what this game gives me. That's what legacy of the world. That's what you get here.

I think, yeah, the story is, I mean, whatever. But I have always liked the world. There's a lot of cool stuff. Yeah, exactly. I'm not saying there isn't. And some of the things, if you're like a big, also like if you're a big Starcraft fan and you're playing Legacy for the first time, there's some crazy stuff that happens.

I mean, they blow up ire, which is like a project's home world. I mean, even I understand the import of that. My life for I. Everybody. I've heard of it. life for hire. Phoenix, nobody, I think even the most devoted StarCraft fan is like, I cannot care less about Phoenix. Why is he coming back again? Because he is such a minor character in the first

thing. Well, the thing is, his memory was stored in his memory web and now he's a cybernetic version of himself. I mean, this is like, so he dies in the first game as a zealot and then he comes back as a dragoon, which is a cool thing. I went and had a conversation with him about this. Wow, it's just like in Starcraft too. So you learn, well, so, Maddie, the point is that in Starcraft 1, it's like a cool thing that he dies and then becomes part of a dragoon because it's like, oh, you learn that like dragoons are actually made up of

these fallen silts and like it's part of protest lore. And then he dies again as a dragoon and for them to bring him back again, it's just so silly. It just like removes all of that interesting dramatic effect. There's like that one guy at Blizzard who's like loves Phoenix and just is like, we got to get Phoenix back in there

and everyone else is like, okay, friggin' Derek wants Phoenix in the game again. He's going to make the cutscenes. I guess we'll put him in the memory web or whatever. But Alarac, you guys will meet Alarac. He's actually, Alarac is actually a cool character. Yeah, I mean, there's some good stuff. But I find myself way more impressed with the overall packaging.

Every single unit in this game looks and feels awesome. Like there are, I can't think of very many. That's the real reason to play Protas. And also they all have like their own distinct purposes, which you'll learn. The more you play the multiplayer and the more you like get to know all the units. In the single player, there are a lot more. It's like triple the units of the multiplayer. But in the multiplayer, every single unit has a purpose of some sorts.

Some are more useful than others. But still, there will always be a purpose for each one, which I think is really cool. All right. We will be talking more about this game on Friday when we do our streams. So if you want to watch us play it, come check that out. And otherwise, oh, and also we're going to be talking more about it next month when we finish the entire campaign. So we will be back with more StarCraft 2. Talk in August at some point.

In the meantime, why don't we take a break and we'll be back for one more thing. Hey, Sydney, you're a physician and the co-host of Sawbones, a marital tour of misguided medicine, right? That's true, Justin. Is it true that our medical history podcast is just as good as a visit to your primary care physician? No, Justin, that is absolutely not true. However, our podcast is funny and interesting and a great way to learn about the medical misdeeds of the past as well as some current, not so legit health care fads.

So you're saying that by listening to our podcast, people will feel better. Sure. And isn't that the same reason that you go to the doctor? Well, you could say that. And our podcast is free? Yes, it is free. You heard it here first, folks. Sawbones, Meril Tour of Misguided Medicine right here on Maximum Fun, just as good as going to the doctor.

No, no, no, still not just as good to the doctor, but pretty good. It's up there. Hi, I'm ketchup. And I'm socks. And I'm ball bearings. And I'm pigeons. And I'm water towers. And I'm cardboard?

Surprise, we're actually humans. Humans making a podcast about those kinds of topics. Because those are real episode topics on the podcast, secretly incredibly fascinating. That's a podcast where we take ordinary seeming things like ketchup and socks and cardboard and bring you the little-known history and science and stories that make those things secretly incredibly fascinating.

Secretly, incredibly fascinating. The title of the podcast. Hear the back catalog anytime, and hear new amazing episodes every Monday at maximum fun.org. All right, Kirk Maddie, just like Phoenix, we have returned against all odds. We have reemerged from the web of memories as hologram purifier dragoons. Let's talk about our one more things. Maddie, what's your one more thing?

Mine is Barbie, which I saw at a press screening last night. And y'all are getting me in the vacuum of the embargoes. not being up until a couple hours after we record this. So I don't even know what everybody else thinks about this movie. But I can tell you that I thought it was really cool. And it is attempting to do like 6,000 things with regard to feminist thought and what Barbie means to popular culture and people everywhere. It is doing a thousand cartwheels and backflips in high heels to try to make many heady cerebral intellectual arguments about that idea. And it's wild to watch Greta Gerwig and Marga Roby try to pull that off.

Margarabi being the star, Greta Gerwig being the writer and director with Noah Baumbach is Greta Gorg's frequent collaborator. And I just want to also say, Ryan Gosling is freaking incredible as Ken in this movie. I did not expect to be saying that at all. Really? I didn't really think. I didn't really think Ken would be that major of a character, but he's actually a really significant character.

And the movie ends up being just as much about masculinity in America as it is about femininity in America. And it gets really weird and wild, because Ken kind of has, like, his own identity crisis about what he is with or without Barbie, and he, like, gets into men's rights activism and stuff. And it is a freaking weird movie. I think everyone in the world should see it.

I don't know. It's crazy. Barbie. It's going to be the movie that everybody talks about for the rest of their lives probably. That's my prediction. That's exciting. I'm going to go see that on Thursday with my nieces. We're all very excited. I think they'll like it. It is rated PG-13. I don't know that it needs to be. I think it's not, it's not scary or there's not swears. There's no sex in it because, I mean, nobody has any genitalia. They're all Barbie dolls. So really, I feel like it's rated PG-13 because there's a lot of intellect. like references and illusions in it. If that makes sense.

Like I feel like they're like, no, seven-year-olds might not really want to hear about Proust and like existential dread and like Barbie's talking about suddenly understanding what it is to experience fear of death. That might not be something they're up for. But as a seven-year-old, I would have been into that. So it depends on your kid. They're older than seven. So I think they'll be into it.

I think. I feel like as a goth kid, I would have really liked this movie. And as a weird adult, I also like the movie a lot. It's not perfect. Obviously, there's things about it that I was like, eh, I don't know if you landed that. But it is trying so many things, and it is astounding that it succeeds at any of them.

And Ken's arc is just fascinating. I can't wait to see what other people think about it. So yeah, Barbie. Great movie. Really wild stuff. Nice. Cool. That's exciting.

Kirk, you already spoiled your one more thing. Yeah. I did. My one more thing is overcooked, too. So, yeah, I mentioned my two nieces are staying. with us this weekend. We've been having a great time, and we're looking for some games to play together. And I've had Overcooked 2 and Overcooked installed forever, but, you know, Emily and I could play them together, but it's kind of more fun to play those with a bigger group. So my two nieces and I

have been playing some Overcooked 2, and I just wanted to shop that game out and give a recommendation for it. It's really fun, and it's really stressful and chaotic in a certain way, but it's also really rewarding. So this is a game that I'm sure a lot of listeners are familiar with, but overcooked and it's equal both games. It's a top-down kitchen where you, all three or four, kind of run around the kitchen and you have different tasks that you have to do. So, you know, there's like a chopping board over here and there's tomatoes over here and there's a saute pan over here. So first you have to grab the tomato, then you run to the chopping board, then you chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, then you grab the tomatoes, you put them in the saute pan.

Then you have to wait. But don't wait too long or they'll catch on fire. But if they're ready, grab them, then you've got to get them to a clean plate, put them on the plate. Then somebody else, hopefully, was making pasta. Then they put the pasta on the plate too. then you have a finished pasta dish, then someone runs it and delivers it. So you can imagine there's a lot of different ways for that to go wrong. The dirty dishes start to pile up, urine out of plates. No one has anywhere to put anything. Someone's doing too many things.

They're not paying attention, and the pasta starts burning, or the tomatoes start burning. There's a fire. Someone has to grab the fire extinguisher and put it out. Suddenly Phoenix appears. There's a cyborg, and he's crashing all over the kitchen. Yeah, so it quickly becomes quite complicated and very funny and is really, really fun. There is, man, a memorable, mission or mission I call it that because it did have a narrative but a memorable level in overcooked

two is you're on a hot air balloon and first you do just like there's a level that's a hot air balloon where there's two and you have to go back and forth between them and they're moving around with a there's a kitchen on this one know because you got to make food on that it's a standard kitchen location is it like the zeppelin from indiana jones and no it's just like a hot air balloon and then there's the later one where there's actually a restaurant on another hot air balloon that you have to like run through to it's it just gets more and more complicated. But there's one where you're on a hot air balloon in a storm, and things are getting crazy and the wind is blowing. And then your hot air balloon crashes,

and you crash into a sushi restaurant. So you go from having to make, like, I think, pasta like you were making on the hot air balloon to also having to make sushi because now you've crashed into a new kitchen. And you're like in the middle of like the debris everywhere. Right. You just have to keep going because you like crash into a different kitchen. So in the middle of the level, we're like, oh God, it's sushi time. Okay, you get on the fish. Like, all right, I'll go and get the rice. And it's very funny. So the one thing I wanted to say about the game that I think really makes it fun as a cooperative game is that we typically do really bad our first time through,

especially because the game has a tendency to single out one player and put them on like three tasks, but they're like across a river from the other two. So depending on who that is, it can be really stressful for that person. So maybe they're a little overwhelmed and you don't do that well. But what's really cool about the way we've been playing is that we'll finish and maybe we'll totally fail. and we want to get at least two stars or maybe three stars. So we'll be like, okay, so we pause it and then we talk through what we're going to do. And we kind of assign tasks, all right?

Like my one niece, she'll be like, okay, I'm going to be on pasta. Then I'll be like, okay, I'll do dishes when they come up, but I'm going to chop the tomatoes. And we kind of work out our game plan. And so it's really, it's opened us up to this kind of collaborative teamwork where we're forming a plan before we go in. And then also, the better you get it forming the plan, the better you are at improvising when the plan falls apart because it always does eventually. It's like, okay, wait, someone just needs to do the dishes. Sorry, I'm in the middle of this other thing. Can you do it?

And it just leads to a lot of communication when you kind of do it that way, when you pause in between levels. So we've been having a really good time with it. And I know it's kind of an older game, but I've been playing it and having a lot of fun. So that's overcooked too. It's unlike every platform ever. And there's also overcooked one, which is super fun too. So yeah, great games. Cool.

My one more thing to round us all off is a book called It's Not TV, The Spectacular Rise Revolution and Future. of HBO by John Coblin and Felix Gillette, full disclosure Felix is actually one of my editors at Bloomberg, but I still enjoyed this book despite the conflict of interest there and can still recommend it. Despite hating anyone who's ever edited

you, you still enjoyed this book somehow. It's true, I can still enjoy this book despite having to get notes from Felix. No, Felix is a great Felix is actually a great editor. But yeah, so this book is really interesting. It's kind of a reported historical book about HBO, like all of HBO's history, essentially, from when it started through the modern era.

And what struck me about it, other than just like it being full of interesting anecdotes about the creation of some of these amazing shows from like obviously Sex and the City to the Sopranos and some of the more, some of the more obscure stuff, I suppose. There's some interesting tidbits about as well. it also captures this like swaggering TV network full of boys club executives that almost like succeeds in spite of itself and is just like constantly run by incompetent people who are like more concerned with like womenizing than actually doing things and like there are many failed attempts to build a streaming app and like how they just like allowed Netflix to like become the market leader through just like incompetent move after incompetent move. and it's particularly interesting to look at today in the wake of our current Hollywood ecosystem and the various strikes that are going on, the writer's strike and the actor strikes that are going on, and the streaming ecosystem just being totally broken and busted for everybody.

It's really interesting to read a book like this and kind of see at least part of the story of how we wound up here. So I really enjoyed it. It's really well reported. There's a lot of focus on a guy named Chris Albrecht who played a major role in HBO and also like strangled a woman. So that's interesting to read about and it's interesting to read about like some of the foreshadowing. Like there's a great moment where like they're talking about the Sopranos and how the episode of the Sopranos that really kind of made it stand out to a lot of people

is called College. It's episode. It's one of the first episodes of the first season. And in that episode, Tony strangles somebody and some of the kind of notes that they got from Chris Albrecht there in the wake of that not. knowing what he had done. There's some interesting, interesting context there and interesting kind of flavor there. But yeah, I really enjoyed reading it. It's very well written. It's very good business story, very well reported, and full of lots of interesting anecdotes and details. And I learned

a lot about HBO by reading it. You know, it's also wild in that there's a Sopranos episode called Pine Barrens, where Pauly and Tony go and take the back girl movie and they kill it before it can be released. That is. Yeah. They kept talking about their scheme to get tax. credits by eliminating HBO shows. Yeah, I don't know. It was very meta that episode. Yeah, I know. Kind of weird at the time, but it makes a lot more sense in retrospect. Very strange at the time. Yeah. And then Tony looked at the camera and was like, this one's for you, Zazlov. And we were like, who's Zazlov? Well, anyway. Call it Max, you said. Just Max. Weird up. Call it Max. Drop the HBO. Max. It's cleaner.

Yeah. So, uh, good book, very enjoyable. And yes, the Macs stuff, it's really, And that's another incredible thing about this book is you're reading it. And it's like, wow, they really like put so much into creating this brand that like really just like was prestigious and stood out and like really meant equated to quality. Wild stuff. Current Warner Brothers Discovery is just like, yeah, let's just take that out back and shoot it in the head. Wild stuff. Kill it for good. So yeah, it's really interesting.

All right. It's Not TV is the name of that book once again. And that is it for this week's episode. Craig. Maddie, we'll see you next week. Heck yeah. Goodbye. See you next week.

Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network.

And if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us. by becoming a member at maximum fun.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at triple clickpod. Send email the triple click at maximum fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

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