Triple Click - That 'Magic Moment' in a New Game

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

The Triple Click Trio opens up the mailbag and answer your most burning questions. This time around we've got questions about in-game morality, ferreting out the truth when reporting, our favorite moments in a new game, silent Nintendo protagonists, and whether Kirk records a new version of that "bing" sound every time he makes it.ONE MORE THINGKirk: Ghost of TsushimaMaddy: Boyfriend DungeonJason: White Lotus Links:Bill Hemstapat’s very cool blog post about the process of arranging and recording the Ghost of Tsushima soundtrack: https://billhemstapat.com/ghost-arrangers-diarySupport Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/  Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

The word continues says a lot about how video games have evolved. It used to be a dare to insert more coins, and nowadays it's a promise right there at the top of the main menu. Welcome to Triple Click where we bring the games to you. We're so glad that you decided to continue listening to us. So this week we're answering your burning questions about in-game morality, silent Nintendo characters, and our favorite moment in a new video game. I'm Kirk Hamilton. I'm Maddie Myers.

And I'm Jason Shire, and we are back. Hey, here we are. Here we are. It's us. Hello, we're here. Three podcasters, ready to do some podcasting for all of you wonderful people. And you know who is particularly wonderful? Are those among you who are Maximum Fun members?

Our absolute favorites, the people who support the creation of Triple Click by being members of Maximum Fun, which you can join their ranks if you go to Maximumfund.org slash join. And if you do that, you'll feel really good about helping us make the show. You'll be our favorite, which is also pretty cool. But also, you will get access to the bonus feed of all. the maximum fun bonus episodes, including monthly bonus episodes from Triple Click. And this latest one that's going to come this coming Monday is about the TV show Mythic Quest, where we talked for an hour all about a TV show about game development, which was really fun,

which was really fun to make. Yeah, it was fun. And it's two seasons and two episodes in between the two seasons. All of them pretty good. There's a lot to talk about. And quite an arc over the course of that show. Kirk, tell us how to become maximum fun members. How can we possibly participate in the system where we get bonus episodes?

Well, I did already say the URL, but I will say the URL again. It is maximum fun.org slash join, and that's where you can a member. So, yeah, go become a member if you want to. And if you don't, that's okay too. Just listen to the show. Yeah, I mean, even if you said it once, I think you need to end on it. So people just, like, get that lasting. Fair, fair.

And, like, adding, like, subliminal messaging of it into the things. song and just like mix it down. Maximumfund.org slash join. In the theme of that may not be in that way. Join maximum fun. To the baseline. Slash join. Yeah.

Like work it into the upper harmonics. Oh man. Okay. So this week we are doing a burning questions episode. It is way too hot to handle these questions. Every time I pick one up out of our mail bag, it just sets my hands on fire. Yeah, just like Link when he stumbles on lava.

Kirk, you want to answer that? Yeah, I'll take this first one. Joshua writes, he had a sort of preface here, but this is the crux of his question. What are the pros and cons of a game really letting the player make their own choices in the game's world, including like horrible, you know, terrible decisions that harm lots of people? Joshua writes, are the moral implications within a game world, the concern of games developers? Is this just me getting old in repackaging an anti-video game fear like violent video games make for violent kids? Or would games that allow you to play as, say, a xenophobic racist, even in a fantasy world, have the potential to affect the player's real life? See, okay, I have an interesting take on this.

The whole point of, or one of the points of art is to challenge you and make you think about things in a way that you wouldn't normally think about them. And I actually think it's a very good thing for games to challenge you in ways like this. where, like, potentially you could do horrible things or say horrible things. Disco Elysium, the three of us were talking about in reference to this question, where that's a game where you can be a fascist and a racist, and you can really say some awful things. And I think what's really important for a game to do, if it allows you to do that,

is to present the consequences of doing and saying those things. So I think a game where, like, something like postal, where you're just committing wanton violence, and that's the point of the game, that to me is way less interesting and way less, I guess, impactful, way less important than a game like Disco Elysium where you actually have to face the consequences of saying those things and how people interact with you as a result. Or even something like GTA, which is kind of the or example of this where if you run around killing everybody, the cops are going to chase after you and eventually the cops will take out their helicopters and try to figure out a gun you down. But I think the point of, I mean, I think as long as you are dealing with the appropriate consequences as a result of doing bad things in a video game, I think it's perfectly fine. And in fact, I think it can be really healthy for a game to allow you to explore bad behavior.

Yeah, I agree. I'm also okay with the fact that games exist where you can do violent things and it's not good or commented on by the game at all. Like, I think it's okay for bad art to exist. And that, again, that's more about platforms and how they regulate the dissemination of bad art or hateful art. And just, like, do those platforms want to host it or not? And, I mean, it's kind of, again, it's why it's so similar to the first question. It's like, the onus is on Steam, for example, to be like, do we want, like, a rape simulation game on our platform or not? Steam usually will pull games like that from a platform because it doesn't actually want to sell games of that nature.

but it'll still sell a game, for example, where you might be really violent or engage in some hateful contact and not have it be condemned by the game itself. I agree with you, though, Jason. I think it's a lot more interesting when a game does what Disco Elysium does, where there are a whole lot of different choices in terms of your character's politics and the game pretty much judges you no matter what you pick in a fun way where, like, you get pushback from everyone in the game's world. and like it underscores how difficult it is to face these moral quandaries in life and like what form of government is the correct way to have a society be set up. It doesn't really have a good answer to that. And I think that kind of art is really cool and challenging. And like, why not? Why not have that be the case? But I do feel like there's a pretty big difference between something like that game and something that is just, you know, a Nazi made this game to recruit other Nazis, which, you know, I'm

I'm sure that exists as well. And that's depressing. Or a game where you have to inject the COVID vaccine in people on, then they get like, I don't know. Yeah, their head catches on fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sure that's out there too. There's always a lot of weird games on new grounds back in the day where it's just like, you kill Osama bin Laden or whatever.

I mean, there were, I don't know. You can always find games that have a terrible, dumb message out there. There's nothing you can do about that. Right. But yeah, I mean, the distinction that you bring up is really important, which is that, like, anyone should be able to say what they want, just like anyone should be able to create whatever, or anyone should be able to create whatever art they want, just like anyone should be able to say what they want. But I think that like once you're dealing with these platforms or anyone can

reach millions and millions of people, whether it's through Steam or Facebook, then you start to have different responsibilities as platform holders and you have to have certain limitations of what can be published. Yeah. I already disagree with myself though now that you lay it out like that. Like, I don't know, maybe there's games that shouldn't exist. I don't know. Ask me tomorrow and I'll, like, have a different opinion about this. You know what I mean? Like, it does feel kind of unsolvable.

Like, especially with stuff like conspiracy theories where I'm like, these are legitimately harmful things that get into people's brains and fill them with misinformation and we're all susceptible to propaganda. We're all susceptible to the allure of a conspiracy theory. Like, that stuff is dangerous. It's like poison. human brains, you know? I mean, so it's helpful for me to look at Joshua's questions, the questions that he wrote down, because the question are the moral implications within a game world, the concern

of the game's developers? Like, yes, I think that they are. But that doesn't mean that you need to make a game in which every action is moral. I mean, the power of video games, or one of the great powers of video games, right, is that they're kind of empathy generators. They allow us to inhabit other people. That's one of the great things about Disco Elysium is you can come up with this completely different person from you and then live in a world that really reacts to that person in all of these believable ways. And that is really interesting. Even if you're behaving in a way that you personally would consider immoral, you can then experience the world, you know, through the eyes of somebody else who does these other things. And that can go in all these really interesting directions if

the people writing and creating the game are really thoughtful about it. And then they can be completely thoughtless as well. And it doesn't have to be as straightforward as something like hatred, remember that game where it's just like a mass shooting simulator? Like it doesn't have to be as clear cut as that. It can just be, you know, however many war games you've played where you're just shooting vaguely Middle Eastern people for hours and hours. Like, that alone, there's a moral consideration to that and it's kind of just thoughtlessly put in a whole bunch of games and you play it for long enough and it does maybe kind of, you know, color how you think about war in some, maybe in some superficial way or maybe in a deeper

way. And it's like, yeah, I mean, I think that that's something that game developers need to think about, just like all artists need to think about it for their art. And it just takes on a new kind of a new level with video games because of the interactivity. It allows you to empathize with people doing so many different things. But that can be really interesting and it can be, you know, artistically meaningful to have the player do immoral things and behave as somebody despicable or evil even. Yeah. Okay, let me take the next question. This is from Ryan. This is a little bit later. Ryan says, Hi, Triple Click. What's your favorite moment with a new video game? Is it buying it at the store? The opening sequences, the middle of the game when you're in your groove, maybe the ending, when you roll credits and digest and reflect your emotions and feelings. For me, it's loading it up and seeing a brand new main menu screen. New music, new art direction, new vibes, new everything, all at once all rolled up into one. So this has changed for me. It used to be, so back in the, maybe like 2007 to 2009, when I was first getting back.

into video games. For me, it was all about the tutorials. I just loved tutorials and couldn't get enough of them because it was, it's sort of similar to what Ryan is saying it was the new game thing, where I was just so excited to be playing a new game, and I loved going through the whole long process where it shows you all the stuff you can do, just because the whole game is still ahead of you, and it's kind of exciting. But these days, I don't feel that way anymore, and I think that this is, you know, more than 10 years later and an entire career as a games journalist come and gone. And in that time, I played so many games and also have access to so many more games, which is certainly true because I get a lot of games for free, but I think it's probably true

for a lot of people because free games have become such a thing, and between Steam sales and everything else. Like, everybody has a billion games. And nowadays, when I play the tutorial, I'm kind of like, oh my God, I know that like, whatever, how a Perry works. I know how to aim down my sights. Well, a lot more games exist also now than they did that 20 years ago. So it's very rare that I'll be super excited to be playing through the tutorial. But what I do really like now, my favorite moment with a new game, it's the moment when the game demonstrates that it's got something going on. And this is a kind of a specific thing, and I really like it because it's not always that common.

And sometimes the game just takes a while to get going. You know, you play for like five or six hours. You really are kind of in it, and then you're like, oh, okay, I like this. I'm into it. But every now and then, and this actually just happened with the game. It's going to be my one more thing, Ghost of Sushima, which I finally started, playing just last night. And that game, the opening sequence is this pretty drawn out, you know, cinematic sequence, you're fighting, you're fighting, whatever. It's beautiful looking.

It's kind of like a samurai movie. And it's a lot of tutorials, familiar stuff, you know, it's a very like Ubisoft meets Neo kind of a deal. But then when you first get on your horse, you're then riding. And like, the camera goes down low behind the horse. And the horse is like riding through these beautiful woods. And I saw this huge field just ahead of me, like out of just out of sight coming into view this field of like beautiful white flowers and I'm like oh man here we go and the music starts coming up and I'm like I feel a title card coming on and it's like sucker punch presents and I'm like oh here we go and he like pulls out and ghost of Sashima comes up as your protagonist he like leans off the side of his horse and runs his hands through the flowers

and the music is playing and the title scream is there and I was like this rules and that moment it's not that common but when that kind of moment happens when I'm like this is a real thing these people are kind of firing on all cylinders. This is a moment that I'm experiencing. I really love that when a new game does that. Yeah, you're really taking me back to playing Twilight Princess on the Wii, like the night that I got those things and like how exciting. That felt like seeing Link on the horse.

It doesn't even look that good compared to Goses Tsuchima, but it just, you took me back to that moment in time of like that new game plus new console feeling of excitement about what the, world could hold. Normally, though, I would say the main menu screen, like Ryan, it's like after the game's installed and you're starting it up for the first time, it's like a similar feeling to opening a physical copy of a game. It's like never did that anymore. I used to feel like that was very exciting to like look at the little booklet and take the game out and be like, it's a new game and put it in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But of course, none of that exists anymore. So I feel like

the equivalent of that is like it's done installing and you're clicking on it for the first time and you're like, what do you get video game? And it's like whatever booting up it has is very exciting to me in just a core way. What about you, Jason? Yeah, it used to be for me just like you, Maddie, like ripping up into the plastic and picking up the instruction manual and being like, oh, these are the characters I'm going to get to recruit in my party, this JRP. But nowadays, it's, I don't know, a couple different things. I really like the moment when you really get the hang of the games mechanics, and it's like, oh, okay, this is what your deal is.

This is what this game is going to be for the next few hours. And then... Like the second boss. Yeah, well, or like the moment where it's like, okay, I cleared out this outpost. Now I think I'm getting the hang of what this game is going to be. But even better than that is a moment where they subvert your expectations. and it's like, oh, okay, this game is going in a totally different direction now, which is kind of abstract. But I like it a lot when, like, a game presents a mechanic and then asks you to use that mechanic in a very different way down the road.

Like when a game, I don't know, here's a random example, like in Uncharted 4 when you spend a bunch of time shooting and then the game asks you to use that same mechanic to, like, use your Nerf gun and, like, shoot down some nonsense in Nathan Drake's house. That sort of thing I always like when a game uses a mechanic in more than one way. But yeah, I think once you get the rhythm of a game is what I like. Let's do another question, Maddie. Yeah, so this is from Nicholas, who writes, I've been following the Activision Blizzard News with, I guess, both discussed in fascination as multiple sides argue in public about what's really happening. How do you guys as journalists parse out the facts from fiction in a case like this,

aside from believing the people who went through that chit-show, which is the obvious right answer. I assume all this will continue to shake out over time. But I would like to know what you think. So this is an interesting question that I think is more of a journalism question. Like how would you as a reporter approach allegations and what can you write about and so on? And I mean, cannot resist a good journalismism question. I know.

For sure. We've got to get into the weeds, right? So since I read this, Jason. do you want to explain what happens when a journalist receives a set of allegations and what you do after that? Yeah, I mean, in this case, well, in a lot of cases, it's like, well, I can talk about the specifics here because there's some of the stories. By the way, Kirk, it's funny. I was thinking before when you said like a lie, how a lie will just continue to, like, propagate when it's repeated. Gamer Gators, the worst people in the world, have continued and do continue to spread the law.

lie that I quote unquote knew about Activision Blizzard but sat on it because I wanted to keep my Blizzard context, which is ridiculous. If you look at the amount of things, number of things that I've reported about Blizzard over the past few years. But the reason that they're doing that is because I said that I had heard a couple of rumors about Activision Blizzard. And this is a good opportunity to expand upon that a little bit, which is that sometimes you'll get an email, you'll get a tip, you'll get a call, you'll hear something secondhand.

in this particular case, I had had a couple of conversations with people who worked at Blizzard and told me some stories. And there are a lot of things you have to do as a reporter. You have to, you can't just like, like maybe as a human being, you can just say, yeah, you know what? I believe you. You're talking about ex harassment. You're talking about ex abuse. You're telling me the story. I don't think you're lying. But as a reporter, you can't, that's not in the bar that you can abide by. You have to have a higher standard. And you have to find other people who are willing to corroborate oftentimes in a story like this. if you're the first reporter who's writing about this and there's nothing public about it, you almost need to find people who will use their names and go on the record because granting people anonymity is not a great standard for something as serious as an accusation of sexual harassment, sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, that sort of thing. To answer Nicholas's question on a fundamental level, the way you parse out facts from fiction is assuming you haven't seen or heard something yourself

and you're just relying on people giving you testimonies. The best way to do it is to hear the same story from as many people as possible. If you hear the same story from 10 different people, even if the details are a little hazy or a little different from person to person, you can piece together what really happened. And it's important when you're talking to those people

to make sure that they're all not like in cahoots. They're not one friend group. they're all like in different, different, maybe parts of the organization or different departments or don't know each other super well or whatever it is. There's a lot of kind of intricate steps you have to go through. But as a general rule, the more people you can get telling you the same thing, the more certain you can be that it is true. And I think what happened with Activision Blizzard is that the reason that so many people

spoke up and it became such a big, like, pivotal story is because all of these people were sharing similar stories and just combined. and hearing that the lawsuit was out and hearing that other people were doing it made made other even more people feel inclined, feel like they could be comfortable to share their own story and compounded. It really created this effect where it really felt like. But that's not to say that like every single person and every single account is objectively the truth. And as a reporter, you have to kind of like sort that out. Something else that drives me crazy that I see a lot in reporting that I try very hard to avoid doing. And I think the better journalists try to do

is when you are granting someone anonymity to tell a story like about sexual misconduct or abuse or whatever else, you have to be really careful about what you print from them, especially if they're using kind of squishy descriptions and saying that someone is like, like, if you're, if someone is anonymous and they're talking about someone else and they're saying, this person is manipulative, or this person was a bully to me, that doesn't mean anything. And as a journalist, you have to kind of print what actually happened. You can't print their subjective descriptor of what happened because that is how you wind up in a situation where it's like, how do you determine facts of fiction when like anyone could say that anyone's a bully and mean a bazillion different things or anyone could say that

anyone's manipulative or gaslighting or whatever and mean a billion things. So another important way to separate the facts from fiction is to make sure that what you're printing is is concrete. It's what it's things that happen. It's this person said this. This person. This person did this rather than this person is this or this person acted like this. Yeah, there are a million more kind of rules of thumb that journalists use, but those are some of the basic ones. Maddie, what about you? What are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that readers can consider is just who's reporting on this and what outlet is it and is it an outlet that's reputable enough that you feel like you can trust them? And also, just to answer the how do you parse fact from

fiction. We'll never know all the facts, but you can read a reporter's work and be like, how many people did they talk to? And also, what did those people back up as Jason was talking about? Like, how many of those people said the same thing? Like, if you read a quote from somebody that's pretty important, and then the next sentence in the story is like, I confirm this with six other people, that's all the more damning because it's like, oh, this reporter in that one sentence summarize like several phone calls that they did that are not not pictured and like not elaborated upon. But that's that's the amount of work that they put in to do their best to validate that claim. And then also what you don't see is like the lawyer meeting about the

story where they were like, how many people did you talk to for every single one of these claims? And usually lawyers will be like, if you want to say sources here, it can't just be two sources. It has to be at least three. For example, otherwise you would say the specific number of sources, at least in our reporting, usually we say the number of people as opposed to just a dozen employees corroborated this, we'll say 11 or 13 or whatever, to be as specific as possible, or maybe it really is 12, and so on. So it's, those are just the level of consideration that reporters, at least for reputable outlets, are putting in when they're doing this kind of work. And the other, yeah, I just also, I too had heard rumors about Blizzard and

Activision over the years. I had always wanted to report on it in the past, but many times people would just say they weren't comfortable coming forward with what they had heard. And you can't really do anything if you're a reporter in that situation other than just hope that eventually the person will want to come forward, but you can't force them to because that's unethical and you can't break their trust by printing something you heard. And so that you're kind of stuck at that point. You can't, You can't report on something unless somebody's willing to go on the record with you. And that's the bind we're in sometimes. Yeah.

In this case, a lot of people didn't want to talk because they were talking to the California Department of Housing and Employment. Which is a good reason not to want to talk. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But that's a position I was in where I kept running into brick walls in the course of trying to report on Blizzard and specifically in regard to sexism. I mean, now I can talk about this now that my story is up. I had heard three years ago, actually I got a tip,

or maybe our former colleague Cecilia got a tip one of us, or both of us got a tip shortly after her riot piece ran three years ago that Blizzard had mysteriously fired Ben Kilgore and nobody knew why, but there were rumors about sexual harassment and finally included some of that stuff in the story that I published on Bloomberg a couple of weeks ago. But that was a name that I, like, in conversation, since then, so for three years now, I had asked like dozens of Blizzard people while talking

about other stuff, like, oh, by the way, did you ever hear why Ben Kilgore was fired? And there was just never any concrete answers. Still, to this day, there aren't a lot of people who actually know what happened, a lot of concrete answers about what happened. There's a little bit more now that he was specifically mentioned in the lawsuit. But yeah, I mean, these things can, like, there are a lot of stories that reporters learn that they can never confirm and never share. And sometimes, like, the most harrowing stuff, you have to sit on as a reporter because it could potentially identify the people who spoke to you and who don't want to be identified. It's really, really not pleasant to do this job sometimes.

As much, it's, like, obviously, way less pleasant to be in that situation where you have to be telling a story because you went through something horrible. But it can also be pretty brutal to be like, oh, man, like, I heard this horrible thing about this person and I can't even do anything with it. So yeah, there's a lot, a lot to kind of get through, especially when you're covering sexual misconduct and her aspen and this sort of story. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, Kirk, you want to read the next question? Yeah, I think we can knock this one out real quick. This comes from Bruno. This is a three-parter. Bruno writes, I'm a big fan of your work, which I've been following since you all were at Katakku.

Thank you for making an excellent show. It's helped him remain sane during the pandemic. And he has three questions for us. He says they're very silly. I think they're very fun. Question one. when are you finally going to do a lost beans cast? I love that show and I keep thinking about this every time Jason mentions it. Let's answer these in order. When are we going to do a lost beans cast? Why do you think we can answer this quickly?

Anytime. Well, because the answer is not anytime soon, but because I want to like rewatch the show. So probably not for a while, unfortunately, Bruno is the answer to this one. Because yeah, like I don't even remember, or there was a whole season I didn't watch. I'm prepared to do it right now.

I know lost it well enough I can do it right now. Jason's prepared. It's really being careful. though unfortunately the answer remains not anytime soon because I am not prepared so it'll be a little longer. I think you're going to say, unfortunately the answer remains not Penny's vote. Not Penny's vote. So question number two, which I can answer very easily is, does future Kirk record a new bing sound every time he chimes in or does he use the same recording every time?

Bing! Kirk from the future here, just binging my way into the episode so that you can have an example of what this question was talking about. Okay, back to you, past Kirk. Bing? The answer to this is that I make a new one every time. And this was something I did, like, I was going to use a tone, I think, forever ago. One of the first times I did that when I, like, interjected. And then I just didn't want to deal with it. So I just made the sound myself. And now it's sort of become a thing. There's even an, like, a reaction emoji on the triple click discord for Bing. But no, and I kind of wonder if it's always the same pitch or not, like if I just, because I kind of

put it in the same place. So I have some thoughts about the, Bing that I'll maybe explore at a future date. But no, I just do... Just a full-length episode. You should do a strong song, just about the Bing. But no, it's a new one that I make myself every time that I do it. And the final thing that Bruno has, this isn't a question, but he just wants us to know. He writes, by the way, one more thing in Spanish is unacosa-mas.

So that is what it is, Jason. Una-cos-a-mas. That is what you can say. Yeah, I feel like we look that up afterwards. but yes, that's good to know. I don't know if we've ever said on the show. We've just had your fragmentary and incorrect versions. Yeah, we've just discussed it extensively off air.

You've occasionally said. So he wanted to just share that. So thanks so much, Bruno, and we're glad you like the show. Thanks, Bruno. Let's knock out this one last question, and then we will take a break for Unacasa mode. Una Kosama. There you go.

Jordan says, hey, I'm playing Mario Golf on Switch, and the story mode is really grating because characters just repeat. hey, hey, and yo, ho, every time they speak, do you think Nintendo gets an unfair pass for having very little voice acting in most of their games? I have some thoughts on this,

but I think that, like, actually more game developers should do this. Like, why does every game need to have voice acting? Like, I'm perfectly happy. I feel like Nintendo actually makes a lot of, like takes a lot of risks and does a lot of games and franchises that don't sell a bazillion copies, and that's what makes them different

from the other big game publishers. And if that, if, like, not having voice acting in your games is what it takes, then sure, buy all beans, go for it. I'll happily exchange no voice acting for, like,

more Mario Ware games and Mario Golf and other weird stuff than Nintendo does. Yeah, I like it when a game has little exclamations, too. I think we talked about this with Dangan Rompo, like way back in the day, where there are like a few little unique exclamations that the characters have that make it really special because you're like,

oh, I've never heard that one before. And I don't feel like it ever quite, persona also percent of five did the same thing. Yeah, persona does it as well. Yeah, I agree Mario Golf gets a bit repetitive. So I feel like the key here is that if you're not going to have voice acting and you're just going to have character-specific exclamations, you've got to diversify it just enough.

Like generally, I feel like Legend of Zelda games too okay at this when they are having characters. Just exclaim rather than read an entire line. Yeah, that's an interesting one. I mean, so I love those little exclamations in visual novels because especially in Dangan Rampa, they're really specific a lot of times, but they also are really flexible,

and it's so weird. I want to, like, the process of writing those and, like, coming up with whatever 15 things a given character is going to say must be so interesting. I'm sure they have, like, categories that they all fit into. And some of them are always so weird and so fun, especially in that game, but in persona too. And, yeah, there are all these,

Nintendo takes different approaches to this. Like, I was noticing replaying Skyward Sword that in that, Link will do the thing. I believe he does it in some of the games in the games. I think he does it in that where he'll actually kind of talk, but it just won't make any sound. He'll kind of gesticulate like he's talking. And then characters will react to him and you'll have to learn what he said.

Even though no one's actually talking, there's no voiceover dialogue. It's all written out. But, like, he doesn't even, they don't even write his dialogue. He just pantomimes it and it is implied that he said something, which is very different than, you know, just sort of hearing, oh, ha, you know, when Luigi says something in a Mario and Luigi game. But I can't think of anything that would be more cursed than if Mario just started talking in full sentences with some actor. So I hope they never do that.

So I'm not going to, I definitely don't think they get an unfair pass for that. They are focused on other things. And it's just part of their whole vibe at this point. And I think it's totally fine. Like I have no complaints about Mario not speaking. And I think I would have complaints if Mario started talking. It would be a problem. It's too late now.

He's only allowed to talk in the Super Mario Brothers movie and the Super Mario Brothers Super Show. He can talk about us. That's fine. That was enough. But in the, I mean, in the games, he does say a couple of things. Like, yeah. Mamma mia. No, right.

Let's go. Yeah, that's true. But that's all he has to say. But even if he said, like, Luigi, we have to go rescue Princess Peach. Like, even that, it would be like the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. Oh, man. Well, what if he talked and he sounded like a New Yorker? Like a national.

He's like, aye. Hey, Bowser, I'm walking here. Fucking walking here. Come my man. All right. Let's take a break, and then we will be back with One Cosa More. Are you feeling elevated levels of anxiety? Do you quake uncontrollably, even thinking about watching cable news?

Do you have disturbing nightmares, only to realize it's two in the afternoon and you're up? If you've experienced one or more of these symptoms, you may have FNO. News overload. Fortunately, there's treatment. Hi, I'm Dave Holmes, host of Troubled Waters. Trouled Waters helps fight FNO. That's because Troubled Waters stimulates your joy zone. On Troubled Waters, two comedians will battle one another for pop culture supremacy.

So join me, Dave Holmes, for two to two doses of Troubled Waters a month. The Cure for your news overload. Available on maximum fun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey folks, it's me James Arthur M, host of Minority Corner. You're home through these but wild times for weekly doses of pop culture, history, news, nerdy stuff, and more through a BIPOC, queer and allied lens. That's how you get Joel Schumacher putting nipples on Batman. Yeah. I didn't ask.

And I say this as a game. I say this as a gay man, didn't ask for it. I don't need to see Batman's nipples on his suit. Who is this for? Who is this for? I did a bunch of research. I wanted to just know about the history of black people in the world. in Argentina. So not only did they erase black people from their history, they also started to

flip and use it as slurs. We're not done. Like, we're not done with the work that needs to be done. And so stay awake. So join me and some of your new BFFs every Friday here on Maximum Fun to Stay informed, empowered, and have some fun. Minority Corner, because together, we're the majority. And we are back. Kirk, Maddie, it is time for one more thing. Maddie, kick us off. Okay. So I played and defeated a game called Boy, Dungeon. Dungeon. I can talk.

Boyfriend Dungeon. You have defeated the boyfriend. I have defeated the boyfriend, and I have collected many boyfriends along the way. I've defeated the boyfriend dungeon, I guess. The Dunge, as I believe it's called. Anyway, this game is only like six hours, so it's not actually that impressive that I've beaten it. I think I almost 100-percented multiple dating arcs and did so in like five hours and 45 minutes

or something like that. Not that I'm counting. I was. This is an indie dating game, dating sim plus dungeon crawler by Kit Fox Games. Came out a couple weeks ago. It's been a little bit of controversy about it on games Twitter because there is a content warning at the beginning of the game that I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me, but it basically tells you that there's going to be stalking and harassment in the game.

And you can't avoid it. There's a central character in this game. He is the first guy that you go on a date with. You have to go on a date with him. His name's Eric. And he becomes a central character in the game. And there was a thread that went like semi-viral within the microcosm of games, Twitter, where somebody was like, there should be the option to not have to interact with this character.

And I don't think that person beat the game. I doubt they did. But you couldn't beat the game without interacting with him because, again, he's a central character. And the entire game is sort of combining the experience of. dating with dungeon crawling. And the idea is that working together with one of your partners, your partners in this game can become weapons that you wield in battle. So like there's a, you know, sexy sword guy who's like a fencer when he turns into a

human. And there's like a cool bisexual dagger lady. And she's somebody you can date. She was my first completed storyline. And that is sort of what the game is about, but it's also about, like, bad dating experiences and meeting people who you don't gel with and what is that like. And I would say the game is, it's fine. I wish that I had liked it more so that I could vociferously defend its portrayal of abuse and be like, it's good that games are really taking these risks. And I do think that, like, just as we were talking about in the letters section of our show, I think it's great that this game exists.

I think it's fine that they have an entire storyline about somebody who harasses you and stalks you. And I even think it's fine that you can't avoid it. I knew what I was getting into when I played the game. And I just kind of was like, okay, that's fine. I did kind of a weird thing where I just didn't respond to any of his texts. And I think just so this is like a game design decision that they made where like if you don't respond to his text, it actually doesn't advance his storyline. And so at the end of the game, I was like, is this game never going to end? And then I realized I had to, like, go back and talk to the stalker in order to get him to, like, complete stalking me.

And then complete his plotline in the game, which ends the game and gets you to the credits. And I don't know if that, I don't blame them for designing that game that way, but I feel like it unintentionally sends a weird message about dating, where it's like if you don't engage with somebody, the relationship won't advance for good or ill. and that I think it actually runs contrary to the kinds of messages that I think they want to send about how it isn't your fault. But by making the game in such a way that like it only progresses if you interact with it. Right. You're still responsible for it. Because that's how video games work. And also even the idea of a content warning itself is like you're opting into this game and you can stop pressing the buttons at any time. Like is inherently the opposite of how real life works. Anyway, I just found all of that sort of interesting, perhaps a little bit deeper. and more interesting than the game itself. But yeah, I guess I recommend it if you want something that is doing.

It's kind of interesting. There's some fun dialogue, but. It's interesting you bring that up because I feel like that is a way more nuanced and interesting criticism that the game will let you not respond to him than the criticism that was actually floating around, which is that you should be able to disable that this is happening at all. Which I find kind of like, I don't really want to have too strong a take on this and I don't have too strong a take on this because I'm not in a position where I've ever been like

stalked by a by a person I was in relationship with and so I can't really speak from personal experience here but something didn't really sit right with me of this idea that like a part of art that is disturbing should be turned off like that doesn't that's like that really just is up to the artist what how they want to challenge people and what they want that to say and as long as they want to say yeah yeah and as long as there's a content warning like which is totally healthy in a smart way to approach it and as long as that is like robust then I don't really think that they need to do much more if that's what they want to say. But the point you're making is a lot more interesting because that's like what they are saying in the game, whether inadvertently or

not. And that is what should be criticized. I know. And I wasn't, I don't think it, I don't know how I would design something like that because it's like how else do you advance a storyline other than clicking your way through it. And like, is there a way for the game to remove control from me entirely and have that be the story? I mean, that would be a lot more horrifying than what it is. As it is, it's actually kind of tame compared to some more graphic dating sims that are out there where there are some very terrifying bad endings and, you know, people are into that and that's all fine with me. You mean like dokey, dokey literature club?

Yeah, like, for example, dokey literature club, who boy, that game also has a content warning and it deserves one. But yeah, this game is actually pretty light and frothy in comparison, even though it has like a little bit of some things to say about abuse. It's mostly pretty ephemeral stuff. but that's okay. I thought it was fine. Yeah, we've had Tani X Short, the head of Kit Fox was on Triple Click, or back when it was Kadaki Split Screen a million years ago.

She was really fun to talk to. She would probably, I'm sure, be an interesting person to talk to you about this game. Oh, for sure, yeah. I'm sure they debated it a lot in designing it. And I feel like that was probably even more fascinating than the final product could ever be, just like deciding how they were going to tell the story and the ups and downs of it, which, yeah, I don't know. Anyway, it's a video game. It's called Boyfriend Dungeon. Boyfriend Dungeon.

Kirk, what's your one more thing? Nice. Well, my one more thing I alluded to you earlier, and I'll go kind of quick on it because... So, Sony sent me a code for this game last night, and I've played a few hours of it, so I'll definitely make this my one more thing a bit later. We're recording this episode early, so this game is just out on the day that we're recording it. I may even bing my way in here and share some additional thoughts. But anyways, I really like this game so far. I sort of, for some reason, didn't think I would, or like I thought that I would find it just too. derivative. But like I alluded to

in the earlier segment, it's really a pretty beautiful and lovely game. I really am sort of digging the vibe. A lot of people have mentioned the lack of a mini map and the fact that you set waypoints and then flick the little touchpad and the wind just blows where you were supposed to go.

Yeah, I knew you would love that point. Very, very cool. And the way it looks is just the way the wind blows through everything is just so lovely. And it's really fun. I'm really digging it. And the main thing I wanted to share is I'm really enjoying the music. The music is composed by Ilan Eshkiri and Shigeru Umabayashi. And there's this really cool blog post by actually an arranger named Bill Hempstapot,

who worked for Sony. I believe he's a, he kind of does music for a variety of Sony projects. And he wrote this really detailed blog post that we'll link in the show notes about just the process of arranging and recording this soundtrack. And of course, it's got the Shakurachi, it's got the Shamison, there's lots of taiko, there's all sorts of traditional Japanese instruments. And it's cool, man. I mean, it really has that samurai movie vibe.

There's an early cutscene where, like, the hand goes up with the katana, and he begins drying it. And then this Shamasan note, like, rings out, and I was like, ah, shit, this is going to be good. And the game really has that energy. It's really, it's a very serious game. It's taking itself very seriously. It's protagonist. It takes the Samurai Code very seriously. And I find the seriousness, it works for me.

I find it refreshing. So I'm really enjoying this game so far. Only a couple hours in, and I will talk about it more. in the future, but so far, so good. Yeah, I'm curious to see if you stick with it because it becomes very Ubisofty, collect-thony over time. But I also really enjoyed what I played with it. I played of it. I just didn't finish it because I was just like,

okay, I've seen everything this game has to show. Nobody's ever beaten a Ubisoft game, so that's fun. That's true. Nobody has. Except for Stephen Chetella. That's right. Bing! Feature Kirk here, and like I mentioned, we recorded this episode a few days earlier than we usually do, and it was only like a day after I'd gotten a code for Ghost of Tsushima,

which I now know is how it's pronounced. I've played a bunch more of this game over the weekend and the first few days of the week here, so I thought I would just chime in since we had a little extra time in this episode and just give a few more thoughts on the game. It's really good. I really like it. I have not lost interest in it despite the fact that it is very much one of those, one of those open world games where you go and explore things on your map and find stuff.

I'm finding it to just be really refreshing. I think it's kind of partly just how it's hitting me right now, now, this point in the year, this long after Assassin's Creed Valhalla, which I liked, but which, you know, I didn't finish and just was sort of overwhelming in a lot of ways and also kind of unsatisfying in other ways. This game I'm finding very satisfying and very just like straightforwardly good. So I just wanted to shout out a few more things that I've noticed as I've played it. It's just a low-key game.

It has a really nice kind of grounded vibe that I'm enjoying, especially after Assassin's Creed, which is usually operating on so many different frequencies with all the future stuff and the technology. just you're a guy, you're in Japan, and you're moving through the world, trying to help people out, and that's pretty much it. It's narratively really straightforward. It's really beautiful looking, as I mentioned, just gorgeous. The photo mode in this game is the most incredible photo mode I've ever seen. It does this thing where when you initially go into it, the game pauses, so all the characters pause, but the world keeps moving, and there's such beautiful wind and motion in this world. You know, you're always out in some field with the sun cascading across the grass, and that all

keeps moving while your character stands still. It's almost like designed to be made into gifts, and it's so gorgeous looking. I'll just stop and look at the game and just sort of take in the natural beauty of it. So that's really cool. Combat is great, and I can tell that I'm getting the benefit of a year having passed since this game came out. I gather it was somewhat buggy when it came out, and I've run into a few bugs. Definitely no more than you'll see in other similar open world games like this, but it's not, it's not noticeably buggy in any way. It actually feels really polished, the combat system is very balanced and very, very fun. I'm really enjoying the way the combat works. It's a lot like Neo. You kind of cycle through stances that you have to use

against different enemies. And at first, I was a little baffled by it, but it's like, it's one of these games where we have to unlock a bunch of stuff. So now that I've unlocked a bunch of stuff, I have almost all my stances unlocked and all these stealth abilities. The game is just super fun. Like, I look forward to every fight that I get in because it's always kind of this puzzle. You know, here's a shield guy, so I'm going to use this stance against him, and here's someone with a spear, I'm going to use this stance against him, and you're kind of always cycling through things in combat. Also, like, they've patched

in a bunch of stuff, like they added an alternate control scheme that makes it like a Dark Souls game where you can fight with the shoulder buttons with R1 and R2 for your heavy and light attack, which is great and way better for me than the face buttons, probably because I'm old and my thumb is starting to, like, hurt when I play games

where I have to mash the face buttons a bunch, but also just because it feels good to have the attack buttons up on the shoulders like that. I've just gotten used to But overall, it's kind of like Neo. I mean, it feels satisfying in the way Neo is, though, of course, it's not brutally difficult and punishing like Neo quickly becomes, or especially Neo2 quickly becomes.

So I'm finding that just really satisfying as well. It's got lots of smart ideas. I mentioned the wind thing already, the way the wind blows you where you're going, but that really is a wonderful way to move through a world that's making me happy about the fact that all these games are dropping mini-maps. I like the little birds that sort of show you cool places to go. I like following the little foxes around.

That's always nice. But yeah, I mean, it's a really good game. I really am enjoying it and have not gotten sick of it. You know, even though it's kind of fell into its groove now, I'm definitely through the opening. I actually like this part of the game more than I like the intro. As much as I like that title card sequence, I'm just finding it to be a very satisfying game. So we had a little extra time. Thank you for indulging me.

You can pretend I was talking to Maddie and Jason, but really I was just talking to all of you. Ghost of Tsushima, pretty darn cool game. Good job sucker punch. I'm really having a good time with it. Okay, back to the show. Bing. My one more thing is a new TV show on HBO called White Lotus, which is ridiculous. I finished this show last night.

Oh, you did? Okay, good. I haven't seen it yet. So I please talk about it without spoiling. That's great. That's good because I'm sure a lot of people have seen headlines, but not been spoiled. I also would like to see it. Yes.

Yeah, I won't spoil it, but it's six episodes, so it's very easy to get through. It's on HBO. It's a show about a bunch of rich people going to this island resort that Katie. to rich people, and it's about their problems at this resort. In Hawaii, right? In Hawaii, yeah, in Hawaii. It's about their problems and the staff, and the show opens up with a dead body. And so you see, it's actually, the show opens up one week after the resort trip.

And so you see a dead body being loaded into a plane, and then you go back in time, and the rest of the whole show takes place during that week. Specifically, you see a coffin. The dead body is not identified. Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Do they play one week by Bare Naked Ladies? Yes, they do. They say it's been one week since you killed that person.

Yeah, great. Okay, so you don't know who dies until the very end. And that's kind of the hook to get you watching. But really, it's a show about class consciousness and the class divide and rich people and colonization and Hawaii

and how the creator and main writer, and I think only writer on the show, Mike White, has no idea how to write Gen Z characters. And it's about a whole bunch of things. It's very entertaining. It's a very entertaining show. I don't know if I liked it that much,

but it was very enjoyable to watch. I think that's the best way to put it. It doesn't, it's not, I'm not sure like what it was really trying to say at the end of things. And I was kind of left with this weird feeling, especially with some of the decisions that they made about endings they gave some of the characters.

But, but yeah, I mean, it's very entertaining. It's very awkward and funny and weird. And yeah, I enjoyed it. I recommend watching it. I just don't know if I liked it as a piece of art as much as I liked it as like something that kept me entertained for six hours. Yeah, I'll just say this for anyone who's watched it. I was actually like pretty profoundly bummed by this show, not because I didn't like it.

It was saying what it wanted to say. I'll say that. But like, I really walked away like pretty, pretty, like, dispirited. Wait, so what did you think? Because I wasn't really sure what it was trying to say by the end of it. I thought it was a very, a very cynical and honest. Like, it had a lot to say. But I think that it was saying it, it didn't screw the ending up.

But I was like, you know, I would mention that for anyone who hasn't watched it, that it really, it bummed me out. I mean, the final episode, I really was like, fuck at the end of it, which like is what they wanted. And mission accomplished, but it really did, it really did bum me out. Anyway, we're being vague too. So it's not to spoil it for you, Maddie or for listeners out there. But yeah, you should definitely watch it. It's like definitely worth watching. For sure.

And it's in the zeitgeist. I got to watch it in the next three days or else am I even going to matter as a person? Right. You don't manage to watch it. It's true. There's a journalist in it who is a great character. A lot of great characters and great performances in the show. The actors just did a great job.

one of the the Gen Z, aforementioned Gen Z characters is, her name is Sidney Sweeney, and you might recognize her face. She was in, like, that new Quentin Tarantino movie about the Mansons, and she's been in a couple of things, but

she is phenomenal. And Connie Britton is in it, she's great. A lot of really great performances. Steve Zon, having a great time. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Steve Zon, who looks like 50-something-year-old, Steve Zon, very strange, and yes, definitely having a good time. you see his scrotum at one point.

Maybe. Could be a stunt scrotum. Sold. Unless it's a stunt scrotum, yeah. Well, in that case, I'm boycotting it. Nope. And that is it. White Lotus.

Yeah, if anyone wants to go check it out, definitely watch it. It's worth watching, entertaining. But yeah, bummer ending. I agree to be there, Kirk. And that is it for this week's episode. Kirk, Maddie. See you both next time.

See you next week. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier. Myers and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review

consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at Maximumfund.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at triple clickpod, send email the triple click

at maximum fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.