Triple Click - The Last of Us Part II (Part 2)

Episode Date: June 25, 2020

"Former employees accuse Cards Against Humanity of a racist and sexist office culture" [Nicole Carpenter, Polygon] "Video Game Industry Rocked by Outpouring of Sexual Misconduct Allegations" [Jason Schreier, Bloomberg]"Does ABUSE Make you Stronger? - Whiplash Review feat. Kirk Hamilton!" [Carpool Critics] Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

You know, Ellie, we really are The Last of Us. Part 2. Welcome to Triple Click where we bring the games to you. Today, we are talking about The Last of Us 2. Once again, now that Kirk and I have had a chance to play it. We're going to get into the first half of the game. So let's get to it, shall we? I'm Jason Shrier.

I'm Maddie Myers. And I'm Kirk Hamilton. And welcome back to Triple Click. Yay. Woohoo, we're here. And hey, it's my two lovely co-hosts. It's nice to see you again. So vital stuff up front.

Thank you so much to everybody who has been spreading the word about Triple Click. We've seen some nice little write-ups from a couple people. It's putting us on lists of best podcasts. Those are nice. Love those lists. Those add up. It's nice to be put on a list. So yeah, thanks everybody for sharing us.

This is our ninth full episode. So our next episode will be our 10th episode. We're still a pretty young show. And we appreciate people spreading the word. We also appreciate everyone who's become a member of Maximum Fun to directly support us making this show. and if you would like to do that and also get access to upcoming beans casts, aka spoiler casts on games and maybe other things too, once per month, you can join maximum fun at maximum fun.org slash join.

That gets you some other stuff too. That gets you like bonus episodes from every maximum fun show. But it does get you those from us. And it also helps us make this show, which is the name of the game. So yeah, thanks to the members. And the next beans cast is going to be control. Right. We're about to record that one.

And then after that in July, we're going to do a beans. cast on The Last of Us Part 2. That is right. Speaking of The Last of Us Part 2, a very fun game about playing guitar and smoking weed. The Last of Us Part 2 is now out. Jason and I have both played like 10, 12 hours of it. Maddie, of course, has finished it. A lot of you probably listened to Maddie talking with Rob Zakney last week.

And now we're all going to talk about it. Isn't that right? That is right. But we want to give everybody a little warning up top, an important spoiler warning. We are going to spoil. Beans. We are going to spill beans. You're right. We're not going to spoil anything. We're just going to spill a lot of beans that are totally fair to spill. And those beans are all of the first, The Last of Us game and the left behind DLC. So if you're in the midst of playing those, you know, hit that pause button. And also we're going to talk about what happens in the first couple hours of the last was part two. And that may not sound so bad to you if you don't know what happens in the first couple hours of the last was part two. But these are some significant plot details that I was not allowed.

to include as part of the embargo and that we're not in the marketing and we're kept secret. Because like anyone who watched the original trailer, the game was announced in like 2016, and I think the first thing I said, I must have been talking to one of you guys. You predicted what might happen, Jason? Take it easy. Don't say the spoiler warning is still in process, Jason. Let's let the spoiler warning finish before we say the spoilers.

Jason just wants everyone to know he guessed what the spoilers were because he's very smart. I mean, I guess that too. I think a lot of people do. I think most people do. I actually, yeah, that's not the point at all. Let's finish the spoiler warning before we talk about the spoiler fuck. Anyway, anyway, spoiler warning complete. We're going to talk about the video game now.

Thank you. Okay, so I think anyone who watched that initial reveal trailer was probably like, okay, you're going to play as Ellie. It's like a quest on, about revenge. Why would you play as Ellie? What might happen? It hinted very strongly that Joel was going to die at the beginning. of the game. And even, I mean, I don't think I ever didn't think he was going to die. I guess I just,

I didn't know exactly when it would happen. And then when the elite spoilers started coming out, someone like spoiled for me on Twitter like, Joel gets bashed in the head by a golf club. But we didn't know when that happened. Right. So I think at the time, people thought it was going to be the end of the game. Right. But at least I did. At least that's the contact shot. I thought. So I was like, damn. Oh, no. I was spoiled. But so I was relieved when it happened in the first couple hours, although I wasn't relieved to see gratuitous gore and blood. I was just, I breathed a sigh of relief. As Joel's head was getting bashed with that golf club, I was like,

whew! Thank God, we're getting rid of that guy. Just kidding. Which kind of leads me to the first point I wanted to make about this game, which is that, so I am just into day two, I think towards the end of day two. And so pretty far in, I think I'm like 10 hours in. In Seattle. I'm enjoying playing it.

Yeah, in Seattle. I'm enjoying playing it. I'm enjoying the way that it works and it's beautiful and there are a lot of great scenes, especially the flashback scenes, especially the quiet moments between Ellie and Dina. There's a lot that I really like about this game. But the thing that I'm not a huge fan of is the gratuitous violence and it's so gratuitous and so ultra-realistic and so doesn't hit for me in the same way that maybe the first last of us violence did, maybe because it's so much more realistic or maybe because it's that I'm kind of just like over these stories that are like violence combined with emotional pathos and here we're going to show you all this stuff. So maybe it's that, I don't know exactly.

But I keep thinking about how like the video game industry has spent so much time defending itself against accusations of video games make you violent that it and it hasn't given enough time to thinking about, wait a minute, should we really do ultra realistic violence? Is this really necessary in our giant AAA story games? Anyway, I could do without seeing Ellie. get stabbed to death every single time I die at like gory, eviscerated screams. God, it's a little much for me. Kirk, what are your general thoughts on the game? So yeah, I want to talk about the story, but just my experience of it, I,

I like it so far. Yeah, I think it's, I mean, like is a weird word. It's a hard one to talk about because it's not a pleasant experience playing it. It's not meant to be. I'm generally finding it to be pretty, like, grueling and punishing and emotionally tough. I was a big fan of, the first game and a huge fan of left behind the DLC which centered on Ellie and like there's a lot of left behind in this and actually I was also a big fan of

Uncharted Lost Legacy which there's a lot of that game just mechanically in this as well so it's got a lot of the naughty dog stuff that I like and doesn't feel to me like kind of ponderous in that way than Uncharted did so I'm like very drawn into this game I'm playing it and am very engrossed

I quibble with calling the violence gratuitous only because gratuitous the word, to me at least, implies that it doesn't need to be there. And I do think it needs to be there for what this game is trying to do. This game has a point. It is, to me, at least so far, absolutely like a worthy artistic exercise. And I mean, Neil Druckman, the other writers, the people who made this game are trying to say something. Haley Gross, by the way, is the other one. Yes, there's two writers. Is that right? She's the other writer? Okay. And many hundreds of other

people who worked on the game, of course. I'm kind of just trying to like cast a wide net so that we're not just saying it's this like one person or two people. But they're trying to say something and I do think that they're saying it via the extreme violence that's on screen. I think that's like a really important thing to say to anybody who's thinking about playing the game. Like it's the most horrible shit I've seen in a game in a long time. But it doesn't feel gratuitous to me in the way that a like just stupid ultra-violent game can sometimes feel gratuitous. Like it doesn't feel celebratory. It feels awful. It feels heavy. It feels like grueling. Like I said, it's a very effortful game, like just everything about it. And I think that that works insofar as like it's a, it's of a piece

of something that they're making. It's not pleasant. And I totally understand playing it and being like, man, this is not for me or this is not what I'm looking for right now or this or I'm having a hard time getting through it. But I'm all right with it. And I think that some of it to kind of tie into what you were saying, Jason, it's just that like, I've just spent so many years playing really violent video games that I'm kind of just desensitized. I'm like okay with it on some level. Yeah, I'm desensitized. And it takes something like this to shock me and I don't know fully what to make of that and obviously my impressions of this game are still in progress. But that it is shocking me and it takes something on this level, on this level of like realisticness to do that. So yeah,

that's part of my take anyways. So I should say that when I'm talking about the gratuitous violence, maybe it's because I am not very good at this game and so I die a lot, but every single time that I see Ellie get bitten by a clicker or get stabbed by some dude or shot to death, it's like that Tomb Raider Lara Croft porn-y violence thing where it's just like... They sure do give it to you. Like death porn. Like I just don't want to see any of that. So that's the thing I guess I'm reacting to most. But yes, I guess I'm also, I guess it's not as gratuitous when Ellie is actually killing people and as part. part of the plot because that is what it's going for.

It can be, though. Her dying is not part of the plot, so that feels pretty interesting. I mean, I guess it depends on how often you do melee attacks. Like, I did a lot of them, and some of them are quite gratuitous. Like, you are slicing open at trachea, and you are seeing that blood spatter out. And, like, I really enjoyed sneaking up on people and doing those melee-style attacks. So I feel like I saw the whole collection of those violent animations over the course of the game. and also got pretty desensitized to them.

I think, I mean, I did talk about the violence a lot in this game, and Kirk, I'll be really curious to know how you feel about the game once you've beaten it. Because right now, you two are actually at the point of the game where I was still enjoying it as well. Like, I enjoyed the first 10 to 12 hours of this game. I thought that it was setting up an interesting story. It's probably worth noting as well that this game is told out of order

in some ways that I think work very well. And I'd love to hear from you, too, about whether you feel like that's working for you or not. But that also meant that then the second half of the game, I felt like my expectations had been raised by the first half, and then I was not thrilled with where it went. But I don't know that you guys will agree with me, and I think that'll be interesting to get to.

But you're still in the part of the game that I think does show some restraint, and there are a lot of, there's a lot of blend between, like, an hour of a quiet moment and then an hour of, like, extreme violence. and the game does that trade off a lot. So, I mean, we made a joke about how the game is about smoking weed, but, like, there is a scene where you discover a weed stash. Great weed smoking scene. It's like, what did you guys think about those parts?

So, yeah, the structural thing you're talking about, I think is really interesting. And I also want to talk about, like, the weed smoking, the guitar mini game. Yes. There are these moments of beauty and really cool stuff in this game that do stand in contrast to the violence. And yeah, just to look at the structure of this game and the way they're telling this story, I've been interested at least as someone who's played a lot of naughty dog games to just look at what they're choosing from and they're picking like structurally from all the games that I've liked. So if I recall correctly, I may be wrong about this, but I think I've got this right.

The last of us, the first last of us was told in a direct straight line. It had a huge time leap at the very beginning, which is that like very shocking like 10 years later, I think it is. 20 years later, it's like this huge leap and you're like, oh my God, and like the whole world has changed. But from there, there's some blackout spaces where, like, you lose time and then you come back, but it pretty much moves forward in one line. And that's a... Well, it moves in seasons. It's like summer, winter, spring, etc. Right. But it's linear.

And then the left behind, I believe, was the first game since Uncharted 2, both of which Neil Jorkman was involved with, to tell a story that was out of time. So Uncharted 2, really cool game. That is like, starts with Nathan Drake hanging off on the train, remember, and he's like, recover. covering and everything's gone pear-shaped, and then you flashback, and it, like, keeps flashing forward and back. Well, three also had flashbacks, by the way. Catches up to real time. Right, yeah, but three, I just don't like as much.

But two, I think, was the first time, but two was the first time that they started doing that, and it was used very effectively. So then left behind does the same thing, where it's, like, flashing between these two storylines, and, you know, Ellie is with Joel in the, or trying to, like, save his life, basically, in that mall, and she's also fighting off outlaws and clickers. That's actually where they first introduce the idea of like human enemies and infected in the same space, which has been used in some pretty incredible ways in the sequel. And then with these like totally peaceful flashback times to her and her at the time friend and this sort of their friendship and then how Ellie discovered she was immune.

But really just sort of the story of friendship and, you know, sexual awakening too, I guess. And like it's just like a whole really amazing story. And it was also where left behind was where naughty dog these days. developers started experimenting with a lot of the tricks that they then used in Uncharted for and are using here. These sort of like repurposing gameplay systems like hunting and shooting in a non-violent setting, like a, what I think it's like a squirt gun fight or something or a Nerf gun fight that they have. Yeah, it's Nerf guns, I think, yeah. Right. And then it's Nerf guns and Uncharted 4 at least. You're like sneaking around with the Nerf gun. And then in this game,

there's also like a part where you're having like a snowball fight with kids like kind of near the beginning. That's part of the game. Yeah. And so it's like that stuff is really cool. And they've been using that so well here. There's a direct callback that I won't spoil in The Last of Us Part 2 a little later to one of the most beautiful video game moments, one of my favorite video game moments ever, Ellie at the arcade machine in Left Behind. And it's, I don't know, there's like a lot of really cool stuff like that. And I think that that structure works in part to bring it back to the violence thing because you get these flashbacks to peaceful moments. And you also learn what's gone on between Ellie and Joel, because when the story picks up,

We're at a certain point with Ellie and Joel. Like there's a tension between them. They're trying to figure their stuff out. But it's not clear how much she knows. Yeah. Like what's going on. Like the events of the end of the first game, like what she knows, what she doesn't know, what else might have happened in between.

And it's fun how they've structured it to like lay that out and tell you what happened at moments that it matters. I think it's like, well done. Yeah, I'd play a game that was just those quiet moments. Those are my favorite parts of the game. That was how I started to feel too. I was like, you guys could have just made this game. Yeah, well, so not a lot of AAA games just, like, have the balls to be like, okay, you're going to spend the next hour, like, diving in water and bantering with Joel and then winding up at a dinosaur museum and exploring all the exhibits and putting on an astronaut helmet and pretending you're in space and we're not going to give you any combat for an hour.

And I'm glad that they did that and I'm glad that, like, Nottie Dog is taking that risk and doing that stuff. But, like, it almost, it makes me appreciate that part of the game so much more that I almost want an entire game. It's just that stuff. and the talking and the gone home of it all, the walking sim of it all. I mean, isn't that the point of contrast, though? Like, contrast is supposed to make you feel that way, right? That's on purpose. Well, so, sorry, I should say that I don't appreciate the contrast.

Like, the contrast makes me hate the violent parts all the more and, like, makes me crave those. It might just be that, like, my taste in gaming have just evolved, especially since the first, last of us, because I've been thinking a lot about my reactions to the first game and how much I love that game. And one of the things I love most about that game was the storytelling and the way that like in so many video games, characters were just written to say what they thought at all times. And this was a game that like had subtlety and like Joel and Ellie like weren't actually like saying what they thought. And it just felt like a real story like about two real people who developed this relationship that was just like unlike anything I had seen in a game before.

And that in combination with like the bleak territory and the violence and it all really worked for me. And I don't think this is working as well in large part because so many games have taken from the last of us over the past seven years. And we played so many great story games and so many games that are like doing such interesting things with story. Even like God of War. Like I feel like God of War took all these ideas from The Last of Us and just like made this incredible game out of it. And yeah, I don't know. I guess I just did the bleakness isn't doing as much for me after playing like, I don't know, Outer Wilds. Like I want to play games with quiet moments and great peaceful storytelling and well not peaceful story.

Any like great storytelling but also like peaceful moments and not just like sneak around collecting crafting materials and upgrading trees and stabbing dudes in the neck. And I don't know. I'm just not into those parts as much as maybe I would be five years ago. Who knows? Yeah, I think there's, I mean, I think this game is actually phenomenally effective at what it's trying to do. I mean, even the thing that you're discussing about the contrast is like the game is absolutely trying to do that. So it's not a failure.

It's actually wildly successful, even in this first half. And I don't know, maybe narratively there are some missteps down the road. But from what I've played, it's fun. felt, maybe, but it's felt wildly successful at setting up the contrast and showing us that a more beautiful, better world is possible, but at the same time, or like might be possible in a dream, but that in this world, it's just not. And everyone's on the same page, like, everyone who worked in this game, Ashley Johnson, who plays Ellie, holy shit, like, this performance must have been really tough. I guess, like, doing this kind of, like, mocap voice work, I don't

even know, like, what the process is like, but just the video. Like her character is really deteriorating, like, as I'm watching this game. I mean, she is, like, in this just total, like, death march of murder. And I mean, that's a kind of story. Like, The Walking Dead is, like, one of the most popular TV shows, and people watch season after season after season of it. I feel like I see ads in there, like, season 75 of the Walking Dead, like, still the highest-rated cable show, where I lost my appetite for that stuff a while ago as well, in general.

In this game, because I'm bought in with the series, because the game, game itself is fun to play, which we can maybe talk about in a second. Like, I'm, I'm drawn in, and I want to know what's going to happen, even though this is not the kind of story that I typically go to. And, Mattie, you mentioned this in your review. You and Rob talked about this some as well. It's also, it is something that I don't know how many video games need to do this. Like, it's kind of like a broader critique, and it doesn't totally, it's like a separate critique from the one of the main game. But we live in a world where, I mean, the first, last of us existed, for starters, but also spec ops the line existed.

And like, SpecxOps the Line has a lot in common with this game. Speck Ops the Line, have either of you played that game? I can't remember. Yes. Yeah. You have. Okay. So that game is this totally like self-aware player-inditing critique of violence. It is, it becomes this total death march where like you slog your way to the end,

killing thousands and thousands of people in the game like, really cleverly in a lot of ways, like totally makes you aware that you're complicit in this and that your protagonist is not a hero. And Walt Williams, the writer of that game, he gave this great talk at GDC, and the quote that I always remember from it is a long-in-law. I'm paraphrasing, but he's like, your protagonist in a video game can never be more morally good than the primary mechanic of the video game. Like, whatever the main thing you spend your time doing in a game, you can't ask the audience to really believe that the character is good if the main thing they're doing is murdering people, for example. And that's very true in spec ops. That's very true here. I mean, we're not asked to think that Ellie is rad.

for murdering these people. In fact, the game goes to these great lengths to remind you of the people, barring even some of the greater lengths that goes to it on this front. Just moment to moment gameplay. You're constantly being reminded that you're murdering people.

It's not pleasant. Those murder animations? Holy shit. Yeah, it gets hilarious. Well, when they start shouting the names, it gets kind of hilarious out there. It does not have the effect that it wanted to. It's working for curse on me.

I can tell. It does on you? I think it's actually, I think it's effective. Like I understand that you could see it as goofy, but everything about the AI in this game blows me away. Because they do it so much. That's the problem for me. Yeah, but you wouldn't do that. It's believable to me. It feels, I mean, I guess so, but like not every time. Sometimes it's just as simple as a person being like, no, like in the way that you would, if you just saw it, like, someone you actually knew get killed. And it just is so different from the kinds of enemy barks you hear in video games.

barks for anyone does know that's like what enemy call out. It's like a way of informing the player. I wrote about the Zikaaku back in the day a lot. But like those kinds of barks anguished things, players or like characters expressing loss and then yeah, saying the names, I don't know. Like everyone has a different name. It isn't

like you just keep hearing them be like, Andy. Oh no, I've been hearing the same ones over and over again. Oh really? I've never heard the same name. Is it because you aren't very good at the game, Jason? It could be. It could be because... You've just killed Mark a lot of times. He just can't kill Mark He just can't get it done

The caveat here When I say I'm not good at the game I guess it's not quite that It's more that whenever I play a stealth game I've talked about this before I have this tick of like Whenever I get caught I just kill myself

Like let everybody kill me Because I don't want to not be caught Oh you're missing out The thing about this game is how reactive I know that's not how I should play this game It's just But it's not It's not even something I'm thinking about

I'm just like oh got caught All right time to time to every set So that might alter how I'm experiencing a lot of this stuff. I think you should try embracing, running away, and resetting because the AI is super reactive in this game to a crazy extent. It feels extremely believable

and cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've done that too. I enjoy the mechanics I'm enjoying quite a bit. Like, I really like the way that everything works. It just feels, it feels very good to play, and the sneaking and the crawling feels very Metal Gear 5 inspired in some good ways. And I like

creeping around, and although it's not quite as sad to creep around and like stab someone when you have to actually watch like Ellie's knife like really rip their throat out doesn't quite have the same she's like shut the fuck up die and you're like whoa I don't think it feels good yeah I just I mean honestly I don't I don't really see why there's no narrative reason that she can't just knock people out but whatever maybe because she's a 19 year old girl and doesn't have the physical strength but she seems pretty strong so I don't know but that's that's the side the point yeah I mean I think we're supposed to believe that she wants to kill these people

I guess it's sort of debatable. The game also shows a lot of restraint when it comes to spelling out what Ellie's actual motivations are and you guys aren't far enough, haven't seen enough flashbacks to know every conversation she's had with Joel yet, for example. And so who's to say? But I do think that you're supposed to think on some level that Ellie enjoys some of the kills she's pulling off. She does.

And she'll be like, fuck you or like, fuck yeah. There's a kind of a grim enjoyment, but she does seem to get satisfaction out of it. Right. Even if you, the player, don't. Although I think that tension is also a part of the game as well. I mean, I think that this is a note that they land on a lot. And whether it works for you or not is also up for interpretation. But I will admit that I enjoyed killing people in this video game.

And I think you were absolutely supposed to enjoy doing it. Yeah, well, the satisfaction of like capturing someone, like getting someone behind and knowing that you got them and like you outwitted them, that's always going to be there. Right. Something I keep thinking about. So to your point, Kirk, about how the one mechanic you use in the game, like the morality of the character, et cetera, et cetera. I was thinking about this how I was in the synagogue.

There's this fantastic moment, one of my famous favorite moments of the game so far. It's great. When Ellie and Dina are in the synagogue, and Dina talks about how she comes from this long line of survivors. And I was like, oh, like, Jewish representation in a video game. Cool. Fantastic scene, really loved it, really loved being in that synagogue.

And then I was exploring a little bit. And, like, I saw something that was, like, tiny print. And there's no way to, like, zoom in on something with the camera, except if you point your gun at it. And I was like pointing my gun to examine this like beautiful piece of artwork or text in the synagogue. And I was like, yep, this is a video game. And it's like such a AAA video game thing that it's like this, this world class team of talented like engineers and artists and all these people who have like blow my mind with what they can do technologically in this game. From like the rope technology that people were raving about the other day on Twitter to the beautiful environments and art and everything about this game.

The shirts. The shirts are legit. When she puts her hood on, I'm like, you put your hood on. just like it was nothing. But then like taking all that talent and using it to just do like more AAA violence, crafting, shooting, whatever, like the same sorts of things that you've seen before over and over again. I don't know.

It just kind of feels like a waste to me almost. That is absolutely the story that Neil Druckman and to a lesser extent everyone else in this game wanted to tell. I know. And that is, that is, that seems like a waste to me. Like I wish that like this caliber of talent was applied to like creative game mechanics. I wish we didn't, that the industry wasn't such that this game has to sell X million copies because it cost Y million dollars to make and therefore it has to have everything that will appeal

to millions of gamers and blah, blah, blah, we all know the drill. It just, I don't know, it bums you out a little bit. That's just been on my mind as I play. Yeah, I think I would feel that way more if there weren't at this point such an abundance of games like you're describing that I can also play, that like if someone wants to make this kind of game and pour this kind of resources into it? Like, sure, I'd love to play a game that had this kind of attention paid to it that wasn't about murdering people, I guess. But I am okay with it if people are like, no, I want to tell this kind of a story. I want to, like, do this kind of a thing and we're going to really do the shit out of it and, like, make it the most technologically impressive, like, performance,

impressive video game ever made. And, like, I guess that's fine with me. Like, I don't have that, like, big, that high-level gripe with it. Like, I think it's allowed to just be what it is as long as is the people making it wanted to make it and tell the story that they wanted to tell. And to me, at least so far, it's very confident. I mean, it's very clearly like, this is the story wanted to tell. This is how we're telling it. And I've, you know, as is true with a lot of audio-dod games, I've never seen this kind of confidence. Like, they just are on a different level.

I mean, the performances and the animations, like, forget the guitar mini-game, which is, like, already more detailed than everything in any video game ever made. Like, the strings friggin' vibrate accurately. but like the fate like it leaves room for ambiguity i guess in a way that i so far have appreciated we've been talking about ellie's motivation it's not totally clear how she feels and i think she doesn't know how she feels at least in this part that i'm playing either she's like driven by blind rage she's not actually sure why she's doing what she's doing she's pretty lost and like it's increasingly fucking with her especially a few recent scenes that i've played

are like really crazy and like she's you know going like she doesn't know what she's doing She's like traumatized and out of control. And there's no way to depict that kind of a headspace without some kind of ambiguity. Because like when a character doesn't even know why they feel how they feel because they're in a situation like that, like it just has to come down to the performance and the writing. And I actually think they're kind of, they're leaving that space. And like it's something that this series has always played with. Like did Joel make the right decision at the end of The Last of Us won, you know?

And that's kind of still the question in this game. also a bigger question than of like, what is Ellie doing? Like, what is this cycle of violence, you know, perpetuating? I keep thinking. So we go to, like, Abby killing Joel and, like, the way she does it, Jesus. It's, like, so messed up. And, you know, she's clearly, like, very angry at Joel for some reason. From the beginning, I'm like, we're going to find out what this is about and, like, why this is happening. And it's going to make this whole thing, like, really messy and complicated. But, like, I don't know. Like, I'm, I'm okay, not totally knowing how everybody feels at every moment

and having to fill in those blanks myself. Even if the game ends. You should just stop playing right now, Kirk. You should leave it right now. No, you might love it. You genuinely might love it, and I think that'll be fascinating. I mean, I'll definitely check in without spoilers.

Obviously, we'll talk about this on the Beingscast, but I'll check in without spoilers once I finish the game, I'll probably finish this week. Because I am curious where they're going to go. I have some guesses as to the rest of... Yeah, I have some guesses based on what Maddie has been saying. But I do.

I will say I really, really. You probably won't guess right because I didn't. But go on, go on. I mean, should I guess it? No, don't guess. No, no, no, no. Tell me off air. Guess off air and I will remain impassive.

We'll talk about it at the Beanscast and I'll say whether I got it right or not. But anyway, I think that, I think the way that they're telling the story is fantastic. Like the out of order narrative, the whole two years ago, three years ago, I really enjoy that the way that's told. And yeah, I mean, there are a lot of beautiful moments in this game. I haven't like disliked this game at all so far, despite my complaints about the violence. That's like a personal gripe. But so far I've been enjoying this game or whatever the right word is. Yeah, I think enjoying it is the right word.

That's good because somebody has to and otherwise this wouldn't be a good show. So I'm really glad that we all have different things. We'll see how we feel when we get to the end because it sounds like things are turning around at some point. You'll love it because you have to for the sake of the podcast. It would have been, I will. say we, Jason and I are in the like less, or you were in the unenviable position of having to review this game, which is just hard. I mean, playing a game like this, I'm playing it, I have my game reviewer brain on it. I'm like, Jesus, like this is, it's, it was like Red Dead

Red Dead Redemption too. It was the same thing where it's like either you, like, what do you even do? Like, how do you sum up an experience like this and like render judgment on it? Yeah. It's impossible. I'm so grateful I didn't have to put a score on it because it's so, it's a game that feels amazing to play. It's so technically proficient and it arguably succeeds at the thing it's trying to do. I don't think it succeeds at the thing it's trying to do for like subjective art reasons. But I also believe that that's completely open to debate and interpretation. And so like trying to review something like this, I mean, I do appreciate the challenge, you know? Like I appreciate that this game is so complicated and wacky in so many ways that it is going to invite conversations

for a long time, including on this show. So that'll be great. Agree. I've like really, I mean, I've mostly been staying off Twitter, but like so much of the discourse, the early discourse around any game like this sucks just because no one's played it. I know. But I really think it's great that games, like, I'm really glad there's another game that's this like really wild, undeniable, massive budget like thing that's going to provoke a jillion people that go a a jillion different directions. Like, irrespective of everything else about it, like that's just cool. Like, it's not just like, oh, it's an

Assassin's Creed game and it's good or whatever. Nothing against Assassin's Creed. But you know, like, this is like really provocative. And that, I actually think is valuable and still kind of rare in video games, or at least it's less rare than it used to be, but rare on this scale. And I actually am kind of valuing that, just in

playing it. I'm like, this is making me think so many things and, like, have a million conflicting reactions. And like, that's nice. Yeah. Agreed. And we will keep talking about it in the weeks to come. So. I'm sure. Why don't we take a break and then we'll be back with one more thing. Welcome back to Fireside Chat on KMAX.

With me in studio to take your calls as the dopest duo on the West Coast, Oliver Wong and Morgan Rhodes. Go ahead, caller. Hey, I'm looking for a music podcast that's insightful and thoughtful, but also helps me discover artists and albums that I've never heard of. Yeah, man, it sounds like you need to listen to Heat Rocks. Every week, myself and I'm Morgan Road. And my co-host here, Oliver Wong, talk to influential guests. about a canonical album that has changed their lives. Guests like Moby, Open Mic Eagle,

talk about albums by Prince, Joni Mitchell, and so much more. Yo, what's that show called again? Heat rocks, deep dives into Hot Records. Every Thursday on Maximum Fun. Listen, I'm a hot shot Hollywood movie producer. You have until I finished my glass of kombucha to pitch me your idea. Go. All right, it's called Who Shot You?

A movie podcast that isn't just a bunch of straight white. I'm Ify Wadiway, the new host of the show, and a certified BBN. BBN. Buff Black Nerd. I'm Alonzo Duraldi, an elderly gay and legit film critic who wrote a book on Christmas movies. I'm Drea Clark, a loud white lady from Minnesota. Each week, we talk about a new movie in theaters and all the important issues going on in

the film industry. It's like Guess Who's Coming to Dinner meets cruising. And if it helps seal the deal, I can flex my muscles while we record each episode. I'm sorry, this is a podcast. I'm a movie producer. How did you get in here? Fee, quick, start flexing. Bicep, lats, chess.

Who shot you? Dropping every Friday on maximum fun.org or wherever you listen to podcasts. And we are back. Kirk, Maddie, shall we, shall we do a one more thing? I think we shall. We shall. All right. Okay, so let me go first because this is going to be a little bit bigger than your average,

one more thing. My one more thing is the reckoning that the video game industry and streaming industry has been facing over the past week. So a very short version is since Friday. day of last week, a whole bunch of people, mostly women, have been coming out with their stories about abuse in the video game industry, mostly sexual misconduct, and mostly men who are the culprits in these scenarios. And there have been all sorts of stories. The one that I've been focusing on and writing about for Bloomberg News was Chris Avalon, who is a prolific writer. He's,

I wouldn't say he was a friend of mine, but we were definitely friendly. He appeared on split screen once or twice. I had absolutely no idea. as I think is often the case that it's like these people who are abusive, um, uh, are very good at hiding it. Um, but, uh,

through reporting it, I mean, I heard the same sort of story for multiple women. Um, so really shocking stuff and that's just the tip of the iceberg. And then there, there have been, uh,

stories about Ubisoft and insomniac and people all across the video game industry, some names that like people might have heard of. Some names people might have seen on Twitter. There was one guy who I think had been, become pretty, prominent or at least within certain game spheres over the past few weeks because he was a big advocate for diversity in the video game industry and he was accused of rape by a woman. So there have

been a lot of, a lot of accusations coming out. And it is, it feels like we've had, like the video game industry has had kind of fits and starts when it comes to its quote-unquote me-to moments. I remember last year there was a point when the composer Jeremy Sol was accused and it felt like there was this wave, but then it kind of died down. This, I think, is the biggest that I have seen. This is definitely the most stories that have come out. So it feels like the video game industry is finally dealing with this reckoning in a lot of ways. So yeah, I mean, you guys have been following the stories, right? Maddie Kirk, who you guys want to give some plots? Yeah, sure. I mean, we also published a story at Polygon today about cards against humanity

and a lot of the complaints of racism and sexism and just specifically complaints about Max Temkin. There had been a sexual assault allegation against him made several years ago, and we interviewed the woman who made it, and all of that is in a story at Polygon that folks can read if they want to. And so, yeah, I've definitely spent the past few weeks

helping edit that story and also seeing all these other allegations come out and just thinking about how, in a lot of cases, there are allegations that were made before in some form, like often several years prior, the person will speak out in some way, not get the support that they wanted at the time or frankly needed at the time,

and then they'll have to keep repeating it. And that's just something that's really struck me. I don't have some grand statement to make about that. It just seems to be the reality of the way these things work that people will have to continue to repeat the horrible thing that happened until people are actually ready to hear it and take action. And this seems like a time when people are more ready to hear it.

And that's heartening to me. but I also know how difficult it is to actually oust someone who has a whole lot of social power or financial power in some of these cases. And so I don't know. I guess we'll see what happens with this particular reckoning. But we have seen some things a little bit like this before in games. And a lot of these stories are things people had heard of, but like it had never fully been reported before. So I'm cautiously optimistic but also realistic about how this will go. Yeah, it feels like such a structural problem.

It feels like people in power are going to abuse that power in some way, like more often than not. And stay in power because that's easier. Yeah, the problem is that people can have these positions of power. Like we need to reduce the level of power that people can have in any industry, but especially the video game industry. Like nobody should be seen as like the untouchable creative genius. Like that shouldn't be a role, no matter how good a person you are. Like that shouldn't be anyone's role really.

such a collaborative field. Yeah, and like changing the way that we talk and joke around about groupies and the idea of that. I mean, a lot of similar allegations have been emerging in the comic book industry as well. That, like, a lot of it is about this idea of men, like, praying on women at events, for example, and, like, women who are trying to get into the field. Like, many of these stories bear a lot of similarity to one another and describe this idea of groupies. And, like, that word and the way that we talk about that problem just needs to change fundamentally.

is really what it is. But yeah, I agree as well that it's also damaging for us to be lauding these certain figures as unimpeachable. And that's just never going to work. Like, nobody is unimpeachable. And also, it's a way for abusive people to just continue to hold on to power and take advantage of that position. Yeah, the groupies thing is a good example of like, basically what we're talking about is cultural change. And that is a thing that happens across a million different vectors over a long period of time. And I think about just myself. Like, yeah, groupies were just a thing people talked about, like in the, usually in respect to the music industry, but then there are groupies everywhere, like, or that is a term that was

used, you know, in every, in comics, sure, in video games too. And like, yeah, it's a, it's just like normalizing this system that's completely fucked up when you actually look at what it is, and now we're being forced to do that. That's been my takeaway from this anyways, is that it was easy for me. So, like, I, you know, I didn't really know Chris Eveloon. He came on the show. He seemed like a chill dude. We talked about video games. And there's a lot of guys. Like, there are people who have been accused in that Ubisoft thread who I, like, would interview at a press event or something. And you can kind of just never find out who anybody is. And I always, that was kind of how I just sort of skated along at games events. And like, I would meet people and kind of keep my

distance and just say hi and keep a professional. And it was really easy for me to do that, I think. because I never even had to think about it, which clearly women at these events do have to think about it. It's like they're literally our predators out there trying to take advantage of you. And I think that makes people a little uncomfortable. Like whenever women talk about like, oh, yeah, we all know the names of these guys and we'd DM each other about them and there's no way to stop them. And like each of us have tried in some form.

But like in a lot of cases, there'll be names where I guess it's easy for me to say, I'm like, these allegations have emerged before. but in many cases they have. And so then I'm like, well, why didn't it work that time? And it is because it's so difficult and because you're often the minority, like women are still a minority at a lot of gaming spaces and comic book spaces and many creative fields. And like that's also true for allegations of racism and just other forms of discrimination that happen in these spaces. It's like you are fighting against a huge machine and it's just easier to just DM the other marginalized people that you know and be like, these are the people who are assholes. try to avoid them. But like, I don't know how you fix that on a systemic level.

Well, it's also tough if you're just one person speaking out and maybe you write a Twitter thread or a Tumblr post or something and you have your details and you tell this detailed story. And then the dude comes back and says, this isn't true and here's why. And it's like... And I make six figures and everybody loves me. Yeah. Well, so, but to an outside observer, even putting that aside, even if you're not a fan of somebody and you're just reading two accounts, it's not quite as like powerful to you. as like if multiple women are speaking up. And I think with a lot of these cases that have come out,

a lot of them have been corroborated. Most of them have been corroborated by multiple women. And I think that is ultimately what's most powerful because, like, chances are very low that one woman is going to lie about a case like this. But chances are, like, infinitesimal that, like, multiple women are all going to get together and decide to lie about a guy.

Like, I don't think that's ever happen as far as I know. Like, I don't know why that would happen, unless it's like a bunch of sock puppet accounts or something. Well, yeah, that's what's been. sticky, I think, this time. So with that the rape allegation I mentioned earlier, something, he, the guy denied it and

wrote a long blog post that was like full of screenshots and texts and I won't get into all the details, but he like categorically denied it. But then other people started saying actually we've heard all these other stories from other women about you and like people started like really corroborating it and that kind of adds a lot

of power to the kind of like for the outside observer who doesn't know what to believe. I think we're seeing a dynamic that is very similar to the initial Me Too movement and each time it happens in a different industry or in a different space where just the sheer volume makes it safer for people to speak up. I mean, the thing you were saying, Maddie, where it's like, yeah, maybe you could say something, but what would that even accomplish? You know, you feel kind of alone against this huge machine.

Now it's like there's this huge, like, ground swell of people being like, all right, fine, I'm going to tell this story. And then a bunch of people are like, actually that guy, like, did this to me too. And you get that corroboration. And there's this strength in that that, you know, is great. I mean, it actually feels like that is different. This feels different to me for that reason. And it's also kind of the pandemic.

I've been thinking about this a lot of listening to people talk about the Black Lives Matter movement and the huge like shift in public opinion about that that's happened and how it just seems like for whatever reason this time, a lot more white people were like able to listen. And I think it's that people just have less going on. Like it really does seem to me like. I think that might be it. but I also think that just massive structural injustices have been revealed by the pandemic in the United States on a level that is unprecedented.

And I think people are just seeing that. Yeah, that's part of it. It is horrific negligence and it affects us all. And so therefore, it's almost easier for you to observe these other forms of injustice that are also present. That's very true. It's like laid a groundwork for us to be more aware of that kind of thing. While also, they're just our fewer distractions. And people are online more.

It's like, oh, well, I have to look at this thing. And when you look at it, it actually kind of, it's, what's the word? Shit, it's like really hard to find the right word. But it is, like, important to look at it. It feels important. And you look at it and you're like, okay, this is real. These stories are true. And like, I am glad I looked at this thing.

And because that's like the way that progress can be made or we can move forward. So, yeah, does feel like it's a good, different thing to be happening as painful as it is. Yeah, I agree. It's been as exhausting and draining as it's been, I'm really glad. to see this stuff coming to late and I feel like all of these people should be named and just burn it all to the ground to like get it all out there. Yeah, yeah man. Burn it all to the ground. All right, let's do the other two, one more things. Yeah, let's, let's, on a lighter note. You guys want to hear about my gamer mouse?

Yeah, I kind of do. Maddie, what's your one more thing? Tell us about your gamer mouse. Okay, so I got a gamer mouse. It's a razor, death adder, elite. I have to look at my mouse to remember the stupid name it has. And by stupid, I mean, freaking cool because it's a gamer mouse. I mean, it sounds like a snake because it's deadly. Yeah, and I'm clicking on heads and those heads belong to people who are dying when I click on them. So, I don't know, I'm just really excited about it. It's been a while since I had a gamer mouse. I had a gamer mouse a few years back. It broke. And for a few years, I was like, I don't need a gamer mouse. I'm fine. I can just use a regular mouse. It's all good. And then I got a Valerent beta key,

back when it was still in beta, so like a few weeks ago, played that game for an hour, instantly remembered that I am no longer 19 years old and playing CounterStrike all the time, felt bad about myself and then ordered a gamer mouse. And I'm not going to say it's turned my life around. It hasn't, but it is really fun, and it has multiple buttons,

and I can map the buttons to do different things, and I'm enjoying it. It's exciting. It is very exciting. I love, I have a Logitech gamer mouse that I like very much. Kirk, I think we have the same mouse. I think you recommend it. I think that maybe I, yeah, I think I was like

you should get the smell. I mean, it's like the one that everyone uses. But I keep accidentally hitting the side buttons that like speed it up or slow it down. Oh, no. I accidentally hit those buttons. I do sometimes, but not anymore, but I have. The thing I like about it that's really cool

is that it has weights and you can pop it open and like put weights in it to make it be like a different weight. When I bought it, I had no idea that was even a thing, which it totally makes sense that it is. It's totally a thing. When I used it, I was, I was, I was, when I first was like, oh, I can like make it a little, oh, I like that.

I kind of like a heavy mouse. Maddie, when I was buying my PC, I just asked Kirk for recommendations on everything. You can see, I have the same headphones. Great. I'm Jason's gear guru. Same mouse. Yeah. I should have done that instead.

I just Googled it. And I was like, what's a good gamer mouse? I mean, that's like, the Razor one is the one that wins all the, it's, that's good. I think that they're all good. It is a good one. They're all kind of the same mouse, though. Like, let's be right. Just Google Gamer Mouse, get whatever one looks good to you. I recommend it. Treat yourself,

you know, get yourself a nice mouse. What have you been up to, Kirk? So my one more thing is a movie that I finally watched that I had not seen for some reason, and then I did see, and that movie is Whiplash, the Damien Chazel movie from, I believe, 2014, which is about a sort of hard-pushing abusive jazz instructor at a jazz college. And every jazz musician in the world has had an opinion about this movie except for me because I'd never seen it. But then I did see it and I had a lot of opinions about it and actually went and did a different podcast called Carpool Critics with some fun dudes over there and talked and talked and talked and talked about the movie. So I'm partly just, I guess I'm just like hyping a different show that I did. But if people want to hear me talk about

Wipleash, because this is a movie that a lot of people have written because I like study jazz in college and like really did kind of experience the real world version of the totally weird, not accurate and kind of problematic version that they depict in this movie. And so people have asked, you know, what do you think of Whiplash? And I finally saw it, and you can find out. But I'll say just big picture that it's like a technically amazing movie that does some really incredible stuff. It won like the Academy Award for Editing, and the editing is like amazing.

J.K. Simmons, who plays The Teacher, is amazing. He's such a great actor. He won the Academy Award for a Supporting Actor for that. But the movie is kind of like trying to be this statement about like how hard should you push someone for excellence, which is like a really interesting topic for a movie to be about. But but then by like making it about jazz and then by distorting so many things about jazz and like making the stories, like some of the origin myths of jazz, like telling wrong versions of them, there's this story about Charlie Parker that he like mangles and makes really

violent, which isn't what happened. And like it winds up kind of being, like the moral of the story is, yes, you must abuse yourself and be pushed super hard in order to be great. And like, it's so totally whack. Sounds like the video game industry. There's some similarities. It does kind of overlap in some ways. And there's even like playing The Last of Us 2 and watching that movie. It's like it's a grueling movie, though, it's pretty short.

But it's like every sequence in the movie is like a nightmare you've had as a musician. You're on the gig, but you don't have music. Or like, you're late. You overslept to the first big rehearsal. Like it's like all these horrible sequences. These are the reasons I didn't watch that movie. I was like, this is going to stress me out too much. It's a stressful movie.

Oh yeah. It's very stressful. So it's like well made, but ultimately I think it's like missing an act or like missing a beat or missing some dimension to the story that actually makes it sort of like makes me really not like the story. But if you want to hear me talk at length about that, check out that podcast because it was fun to record. And that's my one more thing. Cool. Cool. Awesome.

All right. So that is it for this week's episode. I believe subscribers will be getting the control beans cast in their feeds pretty soon. Right? Are we running that in the next week or so? Yes. Yes. Next, this coming Monday.

you will get that. It's coming my day. Excellent. Otherwise, people who are not subscribers, you'll see you all next week. All right. See you next week. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network. And if you like our show, we hope you'll head over to Maximumfund.org slash join and consider becoming a member. Doing so helps support us and gets you access to an exclusive triple click episode each month.

Find us online at triple clickpodcast.com on Twitter at triple clickpod and send email to triple click at maximum fun.org. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximumfund.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience, audience supported.