Triple Click - Triple Play: Cult of the Lamb

Episode Date: August 25, 2022

Kirk, Maddy, and Jason put on their Lamb Pope hats and check out Cult of the Lamb, a new video game that's part Hades, part Animal Crossing, and 100% gruesome animal cult. They talk about scooping up poop, sacrificing their followers and why Cult of the Lamb should've maybe been a little more like a real cult.One More Thing: Kirk: Paper Girls Maddy: A League of Their Own (TV series)Jason: Daredevil (2015 show)Links:Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy a Triple Click t-shirt: https://topatoco.com/collections/maximum-fun/products/maxf-tc-tclogo-shJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

You don't get rich making video games. You want to get rich, start a religion, and then make a game about that. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week we talk about Cult of the Lamb, an adorable management sim where you collect resources and set up a farm for all the followers of your cult who worship you without question. But it's like super cute. I'm Badi Myers. I'm Jason Shire. And I'm Kirk Hamilton and hello.

Hello. It's us again. We're back. It's nice to see you both. Hey, guys, before we start, I just got to show you a special son. No, no, I can't do this again. It was twins. It was going to say, it would have to be twins at this point.

It's twins and Jason keeps the twin a secret for their entire life and that's like a huge part of their upbringing. It's identical twins and then in like 20 years I meet your son and your other identical son. The prestige. I would find some good way. Yeah, I would do like a prestige-style magic trick to do it. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Terrible. I look forward to that in 20 years.

Anyway, welcome to our show about magic and the killing of various birds, butterflies, ate all in our magical tricks. Just kidding, into a video game podcast. We have a few things to get to right off the top. Instead of talking about maximum fun, how about this? I'll say first on September 8th, we have a little homework deadline for anybody who wants to participate in some homework with us. Start reading your close notes now. We are reading a gamer novel.

I've started it. We've all started it by now. We're all enjoying it so far. That's great. Oh, wow. Okay. Congratulations. I've merely started it and I'm loving it.

So Gabrielle Zaven wrote a book called Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. It is about game developers, people who make games. It's a novel. And we are all reading it and finishing it by the September 8th episode. And we're going to spoil it. We're going to spill the beans. So if you want to read along, please do. And speaking of spilling the beans, that's like the thing we do on this show.

It's kind of our gimmick. We like spoil stuff and spill the beans. But usually we only do it for people who are maximum fun members, which means you would go. you would tippy tapy into your URL address bar, you'd be like maximum fun.org slash join. And then you'd click a bunch of other stuff. And you'd become a max fun member for $5 a month. What do you get if you tipy-taping your way there?

You get, you get beans casts and you get beans talks, which are our bonus episodes, monthly bonus episodes. So you get this big backlog of them. But this month, we are recording an episode about All six wonderful seasons of Better Call Saul, a really cool television show about a lawyer that I enjoyed watching without ever having seen any episodes of Breaking Bad. And we are going to spoil all of it. And if you're wondering how Maddie felt about that, you just have to sign up, become a member today. Yeah, how did I manage that? How did I get away with that?

Kirk and Jason watched Breaking Bad. I didn't. Anyway, become a Max Fun member. join up and get those bonus sodes. So that's it. That's the whole episode. Just getting it's not. All right. See you next time. See you next time.

So today we are going to talk about a video game. It's been a while, right? We all played the same thing. We all played the same video game. Sometimes we play video games. A triple play. Yeah, triple play. Three people all played a video game.

We all played Cult of the Lamb. So this is an adorable meets grotesque video game. It's an indie game published by Devolver Digital. Does it still count as an indie game if Devolver publishes it? There are certainly debates about that that I've seen on the internet, but I'm going to call it an indie game. Massive Monster is the developer. And it just came out in early August on the 11th.

It's available for pretty much every platform. I played it on PC, but it's also on Switch, Xbox. PS4, PS5, and I've played it for about 15 hours, haven't beaten it. Easily could have played it for the rest of my life because it's a very, it's addictive in a very specific kind of way. So Cult of the Lamb, you play as a lamb. At the beginning of the game, you are a lamb who's being sacrificed. You could say maybe a sacrificial lamb.

A sacrificial lamb is the kind of lamb. the adorable little walking, talking lamb that you are playing as, and you narrowly escape. I mean, I guess you don't escape. You do get sacrificed. But then you make a deal with the devil or some sort of demon called the one who waits. And that demonic godlike entity says that they will let you have life again as long as you create a cult in their name.

So you do that because who wouldn't agree, this is a video game, you have to agree to that sort of thing. And thus begins a delightful management sim where you have to recruit cult members and make sure they're happy, healthy. You have to scoop their poop for them for a very long time. Scooping is a huge part of this game. And in between taking care of your cults, you are also going on crusades, which are sort of Hades-like, isometric battles, although not quite as precise as Hades. We can get into that. You don't get to pick your weapon.

They tell you. The game tells you what weapon you're going to pick. And you knock out baddies, collect resources, slowly defeat various elder gods and beings of the forest and bring all of your resources back to your cult, where you keep on leveling it up. And maybe you do that for the rest of your life? I don't know. I never beat this game because I started to think maybe I had a problem where I couldn't

stop playing it, and I was worried about myself. But I want to know what you two think about this game. Jason, what do you think about Colts of the Lame so far? I actually found it pretty easy to stop playing. I enjoyed it. Yeah, because you don't have any brain problems. Well, I do with some things. I mean, there's a reason I finish tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow,

like just in a single weekend. Sure. But yeah, no, it's an interesting game. I really liked it at first, but I think it's the type of game that because it's trying to mash together this management sim and this. rogue-like action game, it winds up kind of, it doesn't really go in depth with either side as much as it could. And so both of them wind up feeling a little bit shallow once you played for a few hours,

especially the action part, the rogue-like part. And Maddie, I think what you got at in your intro kind of distilled my biggest problem with the game, which is that you are presented with this kind of fake out of a choice every time you start a new quest, a new mission, a new adventure, where you see a little icon that's a weapon and you have to go up to it and pick it up. And next to it is another icon that's a spell that you go and pick it up. And you have to do this every time you start a new mission. And there isn't actually an option there. It kind of is presented in a way that would make you think like, oh, I get to choose between these two weapons for this load out and I can see which place I prefer, which one seems were powerful to me

in a given run. But no, it's just one. It's like one weapon and that's it. And that kind of sums up what the action part of it is. It's very light. It's very choice-free. It's very consequence-free. And as a result, it's not quite as interesting as, say, a Hades or enter the gun chain or any other sort of rogue-like of this nature. That said, I had fun with it. It's very. It's very very, a very cute game. The graphics are really fun and adorable in a grotesque way. And it's like, it's, it's very easy to play. It's kind of one of those, I guess it's sort of like comfort foodish. It's like very easy to get into, but like once you're playing for a few hours, you're like, hmm, this is kind of like, it's a McDonald's-y. It's, you're not getting a lot of nutrition

out of this thing. It's just easy. It goes down easy, but like it's not really going to leave you super satisfied at the end of it. That's ultimately my takeaway from Cult of the Lamb. What did you think, Kirk? I think this is an interesting game. Yeah, I'm not in love with it or I have not fallen in love with it. I do think that there are some interesting tensions between the two styles of game that this is. And part of me is just was a little bit disappointed that it wasn't a cult management sim in the way that I was sort of imagining when I first heard the pitch about it, just because, like a lot of people, I really like all of the sort of cult media that's out there, the documentaries about Heaven's Gate and Jonestown and whatever else.

I just find them really interesting. They're these fascinating human stories about, you know, charismatic liars and the reasons that people allow themselves to be manipulated. And they're so, you know, they're so interesting. And the idea of a game that's playing with some of that, taking it out of the real world and putting it into this abstracted space and then having fun in that space, it could be really cool. I could see that being a cool game.

Wait, you're saying that you were disappointed it wasn't about real cults or you're disappointed it wasn't... Yeah, what do you mean about you're disappointing that wasn't a cult simulator? Well, so there's a fine line between a cult and a religion, right? And this is an ongoing discussion that Emily and I have been having. Maybe even a spectrum is perhaps how I might put it. Absolutely. And I mean, when Christianity first started, it kind of seemed like a cult to some people. It was this weird new thing that people were doing.

It's actually one of the cool world-building elements of Assassin's Creed Valhalla is the way that people talk about Christianity is this weird upstart thing. Who really knows what that's about? And it's fun to see that from our perspective where Christianity, at least in America, is so dominant. So there's already that kind of fine line. And then when you look at the sorts of cults that I'm talking about that I watch documentaries about, those are 20th century cults, a lot from the 1970s from the sort of cult era. And then there are some modern day cults. And those all exist within a sort of civilized society, a quote-unquote civilized society. They're sort of, you know, manipulating groups that use all of these tactics to sort of.

Like social media and the internet and all these other newer ways of recruiting people. Right, to recruit. And then they also use a lot of tactics to control their followers. There's just like a lot of stuff there that a video game could really interestingly explore. That's totally not what this game is. And I'm not saying that it needed to be. I'm not holding that against it exactly. It has some elements, though, that I think are really cool and horrifying and the fact that they're in the game.

That's the part of it that I think is the best and most interesting part of the game is the fact that you get to decide what your followers are going to worship, what doctrines they're going to follow. You're designing an entire religion. I mean, there's limited choices of what you get to decide. And Jason, I'm not sure if you played long enough to decide all your doctrines, for example. But you do at least have some choice. choice about what people are going to prioritize and what they hold dear and so on. And like, is death the big part of your cult or is, you know, living forever? What are the fake promises that you're going to make to people? Those are the parts of the game that I was like, this is really cool. And I

wish it was even more unnerving, if anything. It's like it just kind of glances off the idea of that and then strays back into the cutesy territory. You know what I mean? And I wish it just really dove deep into that and was like, no, what you're doing is actually really messed up. And you're taking advantage of all these cute little lamb and oxen and like deer and cute little animals that you're recruiting to be in your anthropomorphic animal cults. Right. I think, I mean, I think that if it had just been the sort of cult management, environment management, resource management game, it could have focused on that stuff in a way that was interesting. I mean, the story of Elron Hubbard inventing Scientology,

is such a fascinating story because this guy who was a science fiction author literally sat down and came up with a religion that would be the most effective religion he could think of. He may have done that.

We are pretty sure that's what he did and he did talk about how he wanted to create a religion before he created Scientology, but we don't know. Okay, sure. Necessary, um, um, ask covering complete.

Anyways. Yeah, so I think that that's a really interesting process and you're right that that's an interesting He says a scheme that you get to, if you mean, do it. Scientology is scary, so it's actually probably one. Can you just bleep out every time you mention the name? I was talking about Shmai and Shmology, which is a theoretical religion.

Anyways, so, yeah, that idea is cool. And in this game, it is interesting that you get to choose different things to focus on. And the ways that they affect your followers, or at least that I gather they can affect your followers, is cool. But a lot of it intersects with the dungeon crawling crusades. part of the game because that's the design of the game, is that these two types of game are sort of working in concert with one another and sometimes intention with one another in a way that is cool and it gives this game a distinct identity despite the fact that it really is like

Hades meets Animal Crossing and you just put those two together and that's the elevator pitch. It gives it a unique identity because those two things are very different. For me, the appeal of a game like Hades or I've been playing Rogue Legacy 2 a little because I hear such good things. The appeal about that kind of game is that is actually the impermanence. It used to be the thing I didn't like about rogue likes. Now it's the fact that I can play the game and I just sort of go through it a bunch of times. And I know no matter how I'm doing, if I die, I'm just going to do it again. And there isn't really a feeling of having to manage too much or take care of too much. And that's the opposite of the appeal of a game like Animal Crossing where everything is kind of more permanent

and cyclical. And it's not stressful exactly, but it's more of, you have more responsibilities. these. There's more of a schedule. And then in something like Stardue Valley, it's actually kind of stressful because you have a fixed schedule that you're trying to stick to and maximize. So there are really different kinds of games. And there is a tension for me sometimes where the sort of disposability and the just fun of a rogue-like is running up against the responsibilities, the day-night cycle, the schedule, the hunger, the cleanliness of my camp, and all these things I'm trying to maintain. And I struggle sometimes to gear shift between the two. And then I think that some of the things like we were talking about, some of the sort of topical, like,

the thematic content of the game in what it's saying about how a religion works and how manipulating people works, like those are also a little bit undercut by the fact that all of the decisions you're making about your religion are also supporting the gameplay of the dungeon crawling and the power-ups that you get and that kind of thing, which is kind of less interesting. Mm-hmm. And it's not really clear whether it is making that statement. I mean, it isn't very overt.

I did feel at various points like when the management sim part was going really well, I would just be like, oh, great. Running a cult is super easy and working great for me because I really have everybody in their proper job right now. Everything's really well balanced. I'm really splitting my time well between the crusade and managing everybody. And it just, everything's going great for me. But I feel like the better part of the game or the more compelling part of the game is when those two things, aren't in concert with each other, either because just a string of bad luck happens and like several people die in a row or something else happens, like something goes wrong and just everybody

gets mad at each other. There's like a dissenter. There's one of the sort of plot lines that can happen and they're starting to convince everyone that you're evil and there's like a cult within a cult developing that you have to tamp down on. I was very sad. I had to build a prison. That really is the only way that you can get rid of dissenters. I thought that was. Well, you could sacrifice them. You can sacrifice them. That's a good point. I chose not to do that.

There were some, I was trying to be a really nice cult leader. I was really trying to be compassionate about it. And every time my followers asked me if it was okay for them to eat poop, I told them it wasn't okay. And I didn't let them do it. I don't know if you guys let them do it. There were a few things that I was just like, there are some lines we don't cross here in my cult.

And eating poop is one of those lines. Well, there's a quest where the guy makes you, like, given them. I refused it. Oh, okay. He turned to that. I refused it every time. And they ask you again and again, Jason. Oh, wow. Well, because it's like, I think you're meant to do the quest. No, it's only, it was only once for me, but I did it and then it went away. It's recurring for you because you're not doing it. I'm never going to do it. I'm never going to do it. I didn't sacrifice anybody, but I did do some other things that I was like, I don't feel great about this.

Like I switched from graves to composting bodies and was like, do people, are people really getting closure because of this? I was really concerned about my little animals. So, Kirk, to your point, I actually feel the opposite from you. And I actually feel like the two of these genres mash up pretty well together. Maybe because it's more the type of person who likes a level of permanence in their rogue likes to the point where like, I enjoy it when you're accumulating things like permanent. and things that you can then keep over time. Just to be clear, I actually do think they work well together. They are just in tension in some ways that are interesting.

Okay, well, so for me, the tension of like going out there and being like, okay, I'm gathering stuff that I can bring back. And then when I do my management sim correctly, I can boost up my levels or whatever, make myself more powerful for the expeditions. That's a combination that I enjoy. And that's like a classic combination. It goes all the way back to like Act Razor on the Super Nintendo. other games. It's kind of like the

your what is it a lady on the streets and a freak in the sheets that's how I would define this genre. Yeah from ushers yeah the song we all know and love. That's what it should be called that's what this genre should be called like in the at home you're a town you're running your town and then you go out at night and then you go out and you're a freak and you're a freak and you're a collecting resources like a freak would do.

That's this genre. The genre will be called. Lady on the streets and a freak on the streets. No, Lady on the Street. It's supposed to be the other way, by the way. But I love that you've gotten it wrong. What I don't like is that the action part of this game is just not very satisfying. Like once you've gone through it a couple times, you've seen it at all.

And I think the biggest failure there is just a lack of good weapons. The best rogue likes give you a lot of cool different. powers that you can experiment with, a different bunch of different weapons you can play around with, because you need to kind of liven up that repetitive gameplay of fighting the same monsters over and over again by being able to do it in different ways. And enter the gungeon is a prime example of that. Returnal is another good example that Haiti is obviously the most kind of quintessential roguelike that I've played at least. And this game really, really lacks that. And I think that is really what made me bounce off at the most, that I'm getting sick of

like having to pick berries and pumpkins and stuff. But really, it's the action part just, like, did not do it for me. Yeah. Yeah, I think that the action part has got to be so difficult to get right. I mean, Super Giant Games, the makers of Hades, made so many games before Hades. And each of their games, to their credit are great. I mean, their first game Bastion was shockingly good for a first game. Those are, talk about freaks to those developers.

Yeah, they're a hell of a studio. But, I mean, Hades is this kind of. of culmination of everything they'd been doing for so many years. And yeah, I mean, it's like an impeccably designed action game. And that just is a really hard thing to pull off. Massive Monsters and not, I gather a huge studio. So it has to be pretty hard to get all of this going. Considering I was playing the game and there's that pretty fun dice game, what's it called,

that you can play with the one guy out of the world. Rattle bones or something. Yeah, it's pretty fun. Yeah, it's pretty fun. There's kind of a lot in this game considering how it kind of feels like an indie game. They've really put a lot into it. And I wouldn't be surprised if this team keeps making games if they get better at the action. But I do agree with you that, you know, it's a, Hades is a high bar to compare it to.

But that's what it exists. It does fall short of that bar. It might be unfair to be like, yes, this small team, they can't really compare it to Superjamp. But like, that's what is there. And as a player, you can't be like, wow, I feel bad for the, I mean, I guess you can. But like, it doesn't make the action more enjoyable. Right. It doesn't.

I felt like the management sim was deceptively well done. For what it's worth, Jason, if you were to keep playing it, you can find ways to get other people to pick your pumpkins for you. I don't know if you got far as to know that. Okay, okay, fair enough. I have them all farming for me, but they don't get to when they plant the seeds and water them,

but they don't actually pick it. I have to go and pick it. Like, unless I'm missing something. Yeah, there is a way to get them to pick it when you level everything up. But it's fine. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And then everything is done for you. You just have to keep maintaining all the machinery, which is, of course, its own entire job. It's very, there were definitely some moments where I was like, Maddie, you're a boss at work and you're playing being a boss simulator. Like, what are you doing with your life? Like, you're just walking around making sure all of your reports are doing okay and like

everybody's happy and like giving them gifts. And then also extorting tithes from. them, which really feels bad after which you also do a polygon. You exhort ties from your staff. You sacrifice some of them to... I pay them and then I take their money away, which is also kind of how this game works because you're providing for them and then you're taking things away from them at the same time. But I just, I wasn't sure if the game really was quite confident enough in those kinds of bittersweet commentaries that it's making, which I, again, those are my favorite part. It's the fact that it feels kind of a little bitter sweet to be running a cult. And I'm like,

maybe it should feel slightly more bitter than sweet. I don't know if it should be this rewarding. Or maybe it's like Catamari where it's like the actual message of the game is the capitalism and consumption is bad, but it's going to feel really, really good to do. So you have to just constantly be careful with it. And power corrupts and all that. And this game feeling kind of good is actually the lesson at its core. You know, a lot of these kinds of games put you in a similar position to this one without stating explicitly that you're a cult leader. I mean, in Animal Crossing, you are kind of a cult leader. I mean, everyone wants to be your best friend.

They all do what you say. Like, you kind of arrange where they're going to live. They'll just be like, oh, yeah, I'll move to a new house because you told me to. That's so weird. So, and it leads to the kind of the thing I was saying at the very beginning where cults are really interesting. But I don't know. Being a cult leader, like, I guess that's interesting. It's also like a pretty abstract mindset to try to get yourself into, to try to imagine being Y'all Ron Hubbard or, you know, whatever else.

And being a cult member could be kind of interesting. There's this, I don't know if either of you played. I think it was DeSX. I think it was mankind divided. There's a quest where you have to get someone out of a cult and you're like sneaking into this cult, you know, headquarters and you're talking to cult members. And I feel like it's not the only RPG that's talking to. on that, but I'm always kind of, I'm fascinated by those systems and generally view them with a lot of suspicion and want to help people get out of cults.

Right. But there's so much, I don't know, there's a lot here and it's kind of funny that this kind of game, like the management sim, is really a cult leader type of game. Like, it really just lends itself to that. Well, Kirk, but you're playing as a coerced cult leader. Like you're not choosing to start a cult. You are being forced to do this. Oh, right. So it's actually fine.

I think that's an important. point, though, that in this world, the deity exists and appears to you and, like, tells you what to do, and it's a real thing. But you're not, but it's not only that the deity exists. The deity has forced you to do all of this. So it's not like you can really psychologically get in the head of somebody in the real world who would decide who would, like, who has the brain chemistry that makes them want to run a cult.

Like, that's not what, because you're, like, a thrall essentially in this game. Well, sure. Though the, I would say the game still kind of makes you think about that stuff, even though narratively, like the textual interpretation is that this person is enthralled to a deity. As a player, you're still kind of thinking, like, well, I just think of all of my followers as interchangeable, like, chaff that I can sort of use at will and just send to do my bidding. And you kind of do have that mentality toward your followers. Right. When you start being like, well, this one's old.

So if I sacrifice them, that's fine. Or like, who do I want to give the most powerful necklaces to? And who's the most valuable person to me? and do I want to marry more than one person? That can cause problems. Like if you view everybody in that way, which, of course, the game is encouraging you to do. Yeah, right.

I think the game could encourage that a little bit more than it does. I agree. I think about the character design and the designs of the followers. Did either of you spend much time on the customization? So when you get a new, to explain this, when you get a new follower in your cult, you indoctrinate them, you go and you sort of convert them to your religion. And they pretty much willingly do

because they were usually like about to be killed or something and you just brought them in. It's not really like you're convincing someone to leave their day job and give you all their savings. Or it's a boss. Yeah, that comes later. Right, or it's a boss. So you convert them to your, to your, you know, your religion, and then you can pick their name and you can pick their appearance and you can kind of customize everything. Their entire appearance.

You can completely remake every physical attribute of them. Right, but I found that to be pretty shallow and I never really did. I just sort of went with whatever the random thing. Oh, so you did. Okay. So how was that? And it's super weird because you're, they. are so happy. Like the animation after they like become a completely new being, they're like so wide-eyed and like, oh my God, thank you, Master. Like, I'm so excited about this, this completely different appearance you've given me. I only did it a couple times and I was like, this is weird. I don't like that they're so excited about it. But I agree with you. I wanted the game to push me into that uncomfortable zone more often because I just, I don't know, I like it when a game makes me think, obviously. And so of course, I

I could just easily refuse the poop quest every time. And I've just been doing that. And I'm like, but what would happen if my followers rioted? And they were like, Maddie, we want to eat poop. And you won't let us. And this cold is over unless you let us do it. I would be like, okay, I guess we're doing this now. And there are some quests that are a little bit like that.

Like when you're deciding the doctrines, there is something where every decision is kind of bad. And you're like, well, okay. So either I'm okay with elders and I celebrate them, which like that's. I can't remember all the different doctrines, but like some of them are pretty positive, but then others of them are like just two different kinds of sacrifices that you have to give or just that both, both halves of it are bad. And that's interesting. And I wish I wish more of that were part of it. And I just had to make more crappy decisions.

Like the best parts were the parts where I'd be like on a crusade and I'd realize everything was going to shit. And I had to like, oh my God, I have to go take care of my little followers. Yeah, I mean, is that, I didn't get the sense that the stakes really matter that much. Like, it doesn't really matter if there's poop everywhere and people are hungry, like, because you can just go and fix things? Like, can you lose? I mean, can you lose all your followers and then the one who waits comes for you? And it's like, you've failed as a cult leader and you're dead now. Like what, I didn't experience that.

I don't know. I didn't get a sense that it mattered. And I got a sense that like there would be dissenters no matter what and you can always find a way to get rid of them. One system, by the way, I didn't mention before is that you can actually turn. followers into like demons that will accompany you on your missions. Yeah. Which I haven't played around with too much, but that's another cool mechanism. And I should say like I'm only like halfway through the skill tree or something like that.

So there might be some cooler stuff unlocked later on. Maybe even stuff that makes the action parts more fun and more engaging. Sorry, but I never really thought the action parts got better. If anything, I was like, this is a really cool management sim that is unfortunately also a rogue like. Right. That does, I mean, that gets to some of the recommendation I was making to Emily. When I heard about the game, I was like, dude, because we've been watching all these cult movies and documentaries. I was like, there's a new cult management sin that's like Animal Crossing, but you're running a cult. And her response was, sign me up. And then I started playing it. And I was like, oh, this is kind of a difficult roguelike as well.

Or at least a sort of challenging thing, which I know there's difficulty settings, I think there are. But like it's kind of not her jam as much like that kind of game, which is, I guess, just the risk you. take when you combine two pretty different genres, you know, the reward is that you get something that is really distinct and can really work well and be cool. But the risk is that people who really like one or really like the other might kind of be turned off because they don't want to play a management sim or an action-based roguelag. Wasn't their game called cultist simulators and that like what you're looking for, Kirk? Probably. I don't know. Well, so I want to be clear that I'm not saying I wish this game had been a totally different game or had been... Nor are you saying

you plan on founding a cult and that you're really interested in that. That's something you're not saying. Definitely not something I've sat around with my friends and talking about what kind of a cult we would design if we were to design a cult. That's a normal thing to talk about, right? Totally. No, it's more just that the cultiness of this game was a different flavor of cultiness than I was expecting.

You know, the kinds of cults that I'm so interested in, which are the kinds of things that this game is teasing at and making me think about, are a little bit different than the cult that's actually depicted in the game when you're play it. Although it did make me think about just the choice to have the cult member be a character that you're playing. Because a lot of management Sims, well, I mean, I guess I'm thinking of something like the Sims where you're just this godlike being. Right. Or black and white, like a literal God game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're, I guess, arguably a cult leader for all of your Sims, but the game isn't positioned in that way. But also, you can torture them and people absolutely enjoy doing

that or like forcing their sims. I think in part because you are not a human being in the game, you don't exist. You are just this otherworldly force that can cause things to happen in the game and then just see what the effects are. But by having you be a character in the game, an animal crossing is similar, it automatically makes you feel like there needs to be a justification for everything that you're doing. And in Colts of the Lamb, they get around that by having you be enthralled to this like actual literal demon as opposed to just being like I'm going to start a cult and also I'm an adorable lamb that doesn't factor into it it's you're sympathetic everyone's sympathetic you're enthrall enthrall and thrall to the game there's layers of being enthralled

but in an animal crossing you're just a cult leader but nobody's calling at that it's just that everybody thinks you're their new best friend and it's really fun and cool I just feel like this game would be are you the mayor of the town or no you're not the mayor Are you? No, you're just a guy. It lives in. You're just a guy. I don't know. You're just the coolest guy ever. I can't remember all the titles of like Isabel and Tom Nook.

I think maybe Isabel is the mayor. I know you're heavily in debt. That's all I know. You're heavily in debt until you're not anymore. It's similar though. I mean, Tom Nook fulfills the role of the God in Animal Crossing, right? He is basically the... You are indebted to him and you do have to keep visiting him. And instead of Crusades and Animal Crossing, you're just going to... to other islands and like shaking them down for resources endlessly.

Well, that's just the newest one. That's only the newest one. The other one. Well, I'm saying that's the one I've played. Well, it's really not that different, though. And I mean, in Stardue Valley, you know, you're going through the mines and fighting things and picking things up. Like, this has been introduced in some way or another to a lot of these games.

So Stardue Valley is also a game where you're a lady in the streets and a freak in the sheets. You're a freak in the minds anyways. If you can not go too far down and pass your bed. and fall asleep down there, which happened to me a lot. It's so scary. It's funny, yeah, these games all put you in the position of middle management. Because the God game, I mean, is literally a genre of game.

It's sort of fallen out of favor, but it was pretty big in the sort of 90s and 2000s. Games where you are an omniscient being and you're sort of building a world for simulated NPCs to live on. And you're in that role. This is very different where, yeah, you're middle management. You're sort of the senior manager, senior editor. senior editor or whatever, if you like, of your, of this little town. Is this like the equivalent of the dadification of games where now enough developers have had middle management jobs, but they're now making games about middle management and also

parenting? Right. They're like, this is what it's like to be in charge of a small team of people and how stressful it is, but also it's fun and rewarding in its own ways when we succeed together. It does kind of feel like that's what this game is. game is about. I would be curious if this game has multiple endings and how it ends. None of us have finished it, but I do wonder, how does a religion end? Does a religion end? Like, that is actually a really interesting question. And it's the kind of thing that you could actually provide an answer

to in a video game, which is probably the only place they're really going to get that. Short of, you know, I mean, a lot of cults just end super badly. But that's kind of a different, you know, a different thing. But maybe this game plays with that. I mean, maybe it goes there. I actually don't really know. But your goal, well, your goal is to beat the other prophets and, like, destroy their cults. So, like, presumably at the end, if you get the best victory, then you're the only remaining

cult. And so you're the, like, top, the most powerful cult. Hegemonic cultsanding. The lamification of your world. Yeah. But is there some element of discord or ambiguity introduced to the idea of vanquishing all other religions and your religion becomes the dominant one. Like, it would not surprise me if this game doesn't just present that as hell yeah, you did

it. Everyone is your religion, you win. And there's maybe something a little bit more sinister going on. And I think that's something that none of us have seen, but may well be there at the end and does make me curious about how this game ends, even if I don't know if I'll play it to the end. Bing! Kirk here, as I'd at the episode, I decided to just look up how the game ends, since it feels

a little unsatisfying for us all to just sort of not know. and there are a couple possible endings. They're not super provocative, but they're kind of cool. I appreciate at least the way that it looks like it ends, and it does sort of leave some interesting ground for them to explore in the future. Okay, anyways, just wanted to mention that. Back to the show, Bing! Speaking of the end, it's worth noting here,

especially if people are interested in the game and think it sounds cool enough to go check out. It's a very buggy game, especially in the second half. Oh, yes, we should mention that. It's not a polished game. It's a game that has a lot of issues, crashes I've gotten for sure. Yeah, it bums me out that it doesn't run better. I'm playing it on Steam Deck, and I gather this is also an issue on PC,

and I know the Switch, I've seen people saying the Switch has a lot of issues. It has that microsutter thing that usually I can live with, but it's the thing where it's running great. And this game, you know, it's a sort of pop-up coloring book style. It's not the kind of game. It's perfect for Steam Deck. It's like the kind of game. It's really cool, by the way.

It looks lovely looking, and it's not the kind of thing. you would imagine would be super taxing. So it runs really smooth and it's pretty responsive. And then it just like, it just like lags for a second and like ziffs around every 10 seconds. This is just for me, but I've seen a lot of people complain about this. And it really is a shame that that kind of thing. And then I gather much more significant bugs that sort of halt your progress and cause the game to crash can also happen just because like it. I'm sure at some point I would assume they'll patch all of that stuff and fix it.

And that might be the time to play it if you do think this sounds cool, like Jason is saying. So you all second that. I could also see this being a scenario. And I think I said this about Loop Hero too for the same reason, where the sequel is going to be the game that really polishes up the combat, design, the weapon choice, gives you weapons you can actually level up, makes the management sim stuff a bit tighter earlier on so that people can really understand how to min-max their cult quickly.

And then also maybe in the sequel, you're like an up-and-coming cult that has to overtake the cult of the lamb, which has become the hegemonic domination. Oh, like a Diablo II style thing. Yeah, something like that. I just feel like I don't know the ending of this game, but that seems like a natural jumping off point if they make another one.

And I think this game has done well enough, in part because this is a year where people are really just looking more to indie games because there aren't that many major releases. So stuff like this has really popped. I've seen a lot of people playing this, so I think it's possible they could make another one. I think that's very true.

This does feel like it could be, iterated on into a super awesome game. Like this, the formula is strong and they just have a few things that they need to improve. And yeah, I could totally see that. And they could make it way more disturbing too. That'd be cool. I love it if this game were more disturbing.

Because it should be. It should be. It's so adorable, but it's almost like they're afraid to get out of the adorable box. And I'm like, no, make it really weird. Like, I'm already cleaning up poop constantly. Just go ahead and get really, really weird. Make me care even more about my followers so I feel worse. Yeah.

It really just needs weird cult sex. Like that's as their sequel she used. Honestly, I feel like they're on the verge of that because they included like the polygamy stuff. And I'm like, make that really weird. Like make my followers like really fight over me. Like I don't know. Get real strange with it. That's what Kirk wants.

So yeah, Colt of the Lamb 2. Can't wait. Also, it should be set in Portland, Oregon. And you should be a musician who also does podcasts. That's a pretty popular podcast. but it could be a lot more popular. Right. It needs more followers.

It needs more Max Fun members in order to really... Become a Max Fun member, guys. Oh my God. Wait, you guys are we running a cult right now? Oh, no. I don't want to think about that too hard. So let's take a break and then come back with one more thing, shall we? Hey, kid.

Your dad tell you about the time he broke Stephen Dorff's nose at the kid's choice awards. In Dead Pilot, Society. Scripts that were developed by studios and networks but were never produced are given the table reads they deserve. When I was a kid, I had to spend my Christmas break film in a PSA about angel dust. So yeah, being a kid sucks sometimes. Presented by Andrew Reich and Ben Blacker, Dead Pilot Society twice a month on maximum fun.org. You know, the show you like that hobo with a scarf who lives in a magic dumpster? Doctor Who?

Yeah. We are back with one more thing. I think all of us are watching television shows. Jason, why don't you go first? Because we're going in chronological order. And you've chosen something from ancient history. Yeah, the ancient days of 2015 back in, back when... It really does feel like a different world, though.

Barack Obama was president. Like, any time I play something from the Obama years, I'm like, I don't even know who these people are. I don't know who I was then. I don't know who anyone was. It's wild. Yeah. I don't know who Charlie Cox is. I actually, I did read a book, but it's a book we'll be discussing in a few weeks, so that's not my one more thing.

Yeah, I've been watching the TV show Daredevil that was on Netflix back in 2015, and it's so interesting re-watching. I watched, I think I watched all of it. Maybe I just watched the first couple of seasons back when they aired. This was before, of course, the MCU really came to TV. So the idea of these shows back then was that like it was after the Avengers. it was like during face two of Marvel stuff but Marvel basically said hey Netflix you can do your own thing and so Netflix made

these four shows Daredevil Jessica Jones Luke Cage and Iron Fist is that the other one? You know that other four fun? Definitely the least well remember of the four And then like merged them all together into the Defenders which is like the Netflix version of the Avengers Anyway Daredevil was really the best

Jessica Jones season one was also incredible but Daredevil was really the strongest for a number of reasons. One of of which being that Charlie Cox is Daredevil and then Vincent Dinoffrio's Kingpin just like stole the show every time they were, especially Vincent Dinafria, every time he was on screen, he just totally completely captured your attention. But because this was like the pre-MCU TV show days, the shows just feel so much different than like today's Marvel shows. So I've been rewatching Daredevil season one. I kind of, Adam Wim, after Marvel announced that they're like bringing

a Daredevil back and I've always been meaning to rewatch it because I remember. really enjoying it. I've been rewatching Daredevil season one. It's so good and is like so dark and interesting and explores all these interesting themes and is just like extremely well executed. While written while shot, it just like feels really

cool. And it just feels so different than any of the Marvel shows which really just, it's hard to, if I were more of a film buff, I might be able to like put my finger on this if I were a film critic or something. But like there's something that like feels for lack of a better word bubble gummy,

about every single Marvel show, even the darker ones, even like Moon Night. There's something that they all have this feel, this kind of machine-made feel. There's something about them that just feels like they were made in a factory. Even Miss Marvel, which I really enjoyed as I talked about a couple of weeks ago on our latest Beans cast, I really enjoyed that show. But like even that, it just has a certain feel. It has the, the Whedon style, quippy dialogue. It has the certain look to it. It has the visual effects that, like, you know our Marvel. On the other hand, you watch Daredevil, and it feels like it could be up there with, like, prestige TV. Like, it feels like a genuinely great TV show.

Everything about it, it's just like the script, the way it looks, the way it feels, the acting, the performances are really good. The action. The action is really cool. Man, I just watched, so I've only watched a couple episodes so far. You see that big oneer? But the one, the iconic one, is in episode two, the hallway fight scene, which is just... Yeah, that's some good shit. It's astonishing.

And, like, I haven't seen anything like that. in anything Marvel like in years, right? So I really recommend like going back and rewatching it, especially if you're getting kind of like Marvel fatigued. Daredevil, man, really, I'm going to rewatch it all and then I'm going to rewatch Jessica Jones too because I remember that being awesome. But like those shows, just because they really gave a bunch of talented filmmakers and writers and actors, carte blanche to go and make something that felt different, I think it really, they really stand out. And yeah, man, even just a couple episodes into Daredevil season one. And I remember season two and even three like dragging a little bit and not being quite as good. But a few episodes

into season one, it's just like you really remember like, man, that was a good show. So yeah, Daredevil, very good TV show. And Charlie Cox and then the guy who plays foggy is also amazing. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, just really, just really a high quality show. and just does not, is really way above, I think, most of the Marvel stuff we've seen, especially in recent years. Yeah, well, part of it, this is something we talked about on our recent MCU Beanscast, which if you're a member, you can listen to. Part of it is the costume, I think.

I love how in season one of Daredevil he's just wearing like this black thing over his head. And he looks like this scary weirdo. He just doesn't have a costume. And the costume's okay on the Netflix show, but once he puts it on, I always found it a little deflating because he's so much cooler and scarier as just this guy who comes out of nowhere with this thing over his eyes

and then just beats the shit out of everybody. Also, I don't know if you guys remember this, but in the first few episodes, they don't even introduce Vincent DiNafrio. He's behind the scenes, and they have this guy played by Toby Leonard Moore, who, Kirk, you will know as Conardy and Billions. Maddie, of course, he was also now.

And he plays this assistant character who is always talking about my employer and it's like, we don't name him. So it really builds up, builds up the suspense and the intrigue. Yeah, I might rewatch the whole thing. I never watched season three. Maybe I'll just start from season one and rewatch it. Yeah, I remember really digging it all.

So season three, from when I remember, I can talk more about this once I've rewatched it all, but from when I remember, season two has no kingpin. Season three brings him back. And that's why season three is seen is almost as good as season one. And season two is not. Season two has like Electra and it's kind of weird. does some weird things. And Punisher, I believe, is in season two as well.

Maybe, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember liking season one of Punisher and season one of Luke Cage, although you didn't list those, Jason. But I remember thinking, like, the first seasons of all those shows were really strong, except Iron Fist, which I didn't watch. Well, Punisher is its own entity. No, Luke Cage is part of the four that I mentioned earlier. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, basically of the Netflix universe. Right, exactly. It was cool. It was cool. Remember when superhero shows were different than they,

Also, one other thing worth noting is that, like, MCU, now we're so used to the references everywhere. But in Daredevil, it's very, very subtle. They just mentioned, like, they hint at the attack in New York and, like, the incident in New York. Which I remember liking. I remember liking that everything had to be so low stakes because it's like, these are all heroes we've never heard of. So we need there to be a reason why we haven't heard of them. So all their crimes need to be really personal and just have character drama instead of aliens, attacking New York City.

Exactly. Although Charlie Cox does show up in the most recent Spider-Man movie. He does. He's got a fun cameo. And then he's going to get a new show on Disney. Yeah. And maybe he'll be part of the new Avengers.

Congrats to Charlie Cox for getting that Disney money. I hope they bring back a lot of the people who worked on Daredevil. Because like it's really, really a good crew. I believe Drew Gardard, who is a long time, like, writer and show, showmaker for a bunch of like Buffy and Angel. Angel, by the way, a lot of angel vibes. in Daredevil, a lot of like those war-ish detective. Yeah, no, very good

thing. Drew Goddard, yeah, is an excellent showrunner for Daredevil and yeah, just really enjoying it. Good show. That's cool. Kirk, how about you? So I watch something I'm a little more mixed on that is also a TV show based on a comic book. This is Paper Girls, which is on Amazon.

It's based on a recent series of comic books by Brian K. Vaughn, illustrated by Cliff Chang, that I haven't read but have been aware of, because the premise sounds really cool. A group of girls, sort of preteen girls in the late 1980s who run a paper route, or they each run their own paper routes, wind up getting thrown together into some sort of supernatural, you know, adventure. And I thought that seemed like a fun premise.

And then the show came out, and I watched it. I watched the whole first season. And it's such an interesting thing. I was really kind of mixed on it, and I think what I come down is that I think the source material is really strong, and the adaptation was just underfunded and under-supported. I think that's where I come down on it in the end, which has been a while since it felt like one of these shows could have been great if Amazon had just put more money into it, but that's kind of what it feels like. So this show has got a lot of time travel. It's got a lot of really wacky hijinks.

There's giant robots and dinosaurs and stuff that turn up. It gets really weird toward the end because it is a supernatural, you know, sci-fi. adventure. But it's a pretty grounded story. And it's primarily about these four girls who wind up traveling through time and meeting various versions of themselves throughout their lives and possible features that they could have. And it winds up dealing with some really cool character stuff. Like it's really thought-provoking and interesting in the way that Brian K. Vaughn tends to be. He's kind of good at writing those kinds of stories. And so I was realizing toward the end, I'm like, man, I'm really into these characters. And I like what they're doing by making people confront

death in interesting ways and confront disappointment and what is destiny and what is time. It's not so much the mechanics of time travel as it is the personal stakes of seeing your life and maybe even seeing your death and that kind of thing. Really cool. And then the show itself just looks bad. Every scene is like shot in just some sort of gray building or on a street at night in a suburb or in a sort of, you know, a sort of mobile home at a construction site. And there's some CGI stuff, but it doesn't look good. Like there are some scenes with, like, CGI creatures that look like Power Rangers level. Like, it really just looks like they didn't have the time, they didn't have the support,

they didn't have the money to make something that would be kind of as appealing as it needed to be. And I'm not sure. I mean, I've looked at what the comics look like. And they take place a lot in the suburbs and then sort of, you know, boring, I guess, quote unquote boring suburban midwestern settings, but the comics are beautiful looking and the art style is beautiful. And it just makes me, I don't know, it left me kind of frustrated that the show didn't get the sort of vision behind it or the support to make that vision become real, given that the premise and the ideas and the characters are still really

cool. So I do recommend it as something to watch. I mean, if that sounds cool to you, like it's a cool show if a little frustrating and maybe if a lot of people watch it, they'll, you'll give it some more support for season two. But yeah, I can't quite put my finger on. I mean, it's a number of things, so it's hard to put your finger on, you know, a number of things because it isn't just one thing. But there's just something. It could have been animated.

It could have had a different look. It could have been approached differently. And I think it would have held together a little bit better. But I still did like it overall. Did you feel like the acting was good? I think the acting was, it was a little bit of a mix. Some of the characters are good and some of the actors are good. there are times where it's still,

that's the same feeling really, where I'm like, this just kind of feels like they didn't take the time with this scene to really crack it and to get all the actors kind of on the same page and really delivering

and kind of working it out. Like it feels a little rushed and even the acting at times feels rushed. But the actors do a good job with it. In fairness, Amazon doesn't have a lot of money, so you got to cut them some slack. It is funny watching the trailers for that Lord of the Rings thing that's coming up

and being like, couldn't just like 5% of the budget for this have gone to make Papergirls? a little bit have a little more zaz, you know, be a little better looking. Well, that's where it all went. That's the problem. Yeah, I guess so.

And Bezos had to knock down that bridge to move his yacht from one place or another. It's funny because I also watched an Amazon show that I have some issues with that I'm now wondering if they were similar reasons. So I watched a league of their own, which is a TV series version of the movie of the same name with Gina Davis and Tom Hanks.

And my main memories of the movie are that it's a really fun sports story. And yes, there is a sort of will, they, won't they, between Gina Davis and Tom Hanks. But that isn't really the part of the movie that you're supposed to care about. And it also feels like it's only in the movie for titillation reasons and not because that was a romance that ever really happened. And the whole point in the movie is that it's an amazing baseball story. And you're like, oh, my God, are the Rockford Peach is going to win or not? all these women are playing baseball professionally because, you know, it's World War II and men aren't playing professional baseball really. So women get to do it. I mean, like, that's the point of it.

So a league of their own, the TV series, all that stuff I said is not the point of it. So throw all that in the trash. That's not what the show is about. Yes, it's about the Rock for Peaches and women playing baseball during World War II times. But this is actually very serious and at times, and at times quite sad and disturbing portrayal of what it's like to be a queer woman in the 1940s when it was like illegal to exist at that time period. And Abby Jacobson stars in it as Carson Shaw, who's this woman who's married, but, well, they don't actually say she's a lesbian, but that's how I would interpret her character arc. She likes her husband a lot, but she sort of has this moment of self-discovery where she falls in love

with one of her teammates on her baseball team. the experience of falling in love and discovering queerness is sort of positioned as the same as being a woman who likes baseball and baseball is like barely on this show which i'm a little disappointed about like i can't believe i'm here saying like boy i'm really sad this is a queer love story but like it would be kind of cool if there's a little more baseball like did you guys know what i'm saying no sure it's like the sports show like ted lasso or friday night like where you want a little sports in there. There's so much, like, queer character drama and, like, moments that, like, made me, like, you know, tear up.

And, like, these characters are really facing some significant hardships. Like, they're going to queer bars that are getting busted by the cops. And, like, people are getting gay bashed. And, like, there's all these serious, horrible things that are happening. And there's this whole other storyline where there's, like, this black woman who really wants to be part of the team. And she ends up becoming a part of the Negro leagues. And I, like, did all this research on my own because I, was just fascinated by this. And there were three women who played in the Negro leagues during this time period. And like the show is basing the storyline on that, which is really cool. And she's also queer. And like that's a part of her scenario. So it's like almost every single female character on this show is queer. But again, the show is not about baseball. It's just not. And like that's fine. I think it's a really rad show about queer women in the 1940s. I don't know if it needs to be a league of their own. I don't know if it needed to be a baseball show. But.

Like, it is. And every time there's occasional baseball scenes, I'm like, this is so exciting. I love the baseball. I don't know. I still really like the show. I think people should watch it. I wonder now if maybe Amazon just didn't give them enough money to show like big crowd scenes. Also, it was filmed during COVID. So I know that was a big concern with production. So I'm kind of wondering. I wonder that about Paper Girls too is like maybe all the scenes have five people because of COVID. Exactly. So there's a lot of really deep intense scenes between like two women that were like. three or four women. And that's kind of the entire show. So, like, if that sounds rad to you, the actresses are all fucking amazing. I mean, Abby Jacobson is the best. She's incredibly great. She really carries the show.

But, like, they have these other two women who are, like, two Mexican players and they have to, like, pretend to be Spanish because, like, everybody's supposed to be all-American, and they have this whole storyline, and I loved them. I don't know. The show is really cool in terms of just character-building. but I do wish it had more sports drama. That's all. Anyway, I guess we all three went.

The moral of this one more thing is Amazon should spend more money. We all need to support Amazon, guys. Everybody, please, they need your money. Please. How else will we get appropriately expensive-looking content? Oh, my goodness. Well, it's not going to come from HBO and Warner Brothers, which is just axing everything. Apparently not. Apparently not.

There is that new Game of Thrones show. true. The Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power, because you love to have the rings right next to the the words the Rings. It's true. We can never have too many rings in a title. Anyway, we all have to go talk about another TV show. Please become a MaxFund member so you can hear us talk about it. Maximumfun dot-arch slash join. Yeah. And we'll see you all next week. See you next week. See you next week. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music, our show art is by Tom DJ.

Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show,

we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at Maximumfund.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at Triple ClickPod. Send email the triple click at maximum fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

FilmFund.org. Comedy and culture. Artists-owned, audience-supported. If anybody is still there, this is Kirk after I edited the episode. And I just wanted to acknowledge that moment when we were talking about the year 2015. And then Jason and I both simultaneously with the exact same inflection said, Barack Obama was president. And that was not planned. That just sort of happened. And I just left it in there. And I wasn't going to comment on it. But if you notice that and you stuck around until the end, I just want to say that I'm right there with you. That was an unusual coincidence and possibly a sign

that Jason and I have been podcasting together for too long, or maybe for just enough. Anyways, thanks for listening to our show. See you next time.