Triple Click - Triple Play: Elden Ring Nightreign

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Arise, tarnished, and watch out for server errors. Jason, Kirk, and Maddy team up for some co-op in Elden Ring: Nightreign, the new multiplayer spinoff by From Software. It's a fun game to talk about! They talk about the high highs, low lows, and the opacity of it all.One More Thing:Kirk: Your Friends and Neighbors (Apple TV+)Maddy: Kitchen NightmaresJason: The Rehearsal (HBO)LINKS:Tyler Colp’s PC Gamer Nightreign Review: https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/elden-ring-nightreign-review/Triple Click LIVE in Portland, July 11: https://albertarosetheatre.com/event/triple-click-live/alberta-rose-theatre/portland-oregon/Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy Triple Click Merch: https://maxfunstore.com/search?q=triple+click&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

Arise now, ye tarnished, ye dead who yet live, the call of long-lost grace speaks to us all. Where are we dropping, boys? Welcome to Triple Click where we bring the games to you. This week we're talking about Eldon Ring Night Rain, a new multiplayer game from From Software. The three of us have played it. What do we think? Let's find out. I'm Jason Shire.

I'm Kirk Hamilton. And I'm Maddie Myers. And hello. We are back. Hello, my friends. Back again. Hello. We are one week away for the release of a new console.

I know. It doesn't feel like it. It does not feel like it. It really doesn't. Just in time for Jason and I to already be on a plane to Summer Game Fest. It will be arriving on our doorsteps without us present. And our wonderful wives will be running out and picking up the package and being like, why am I doing this? Maddie, I preordered it at the game stop around the corner here in my wife's name so that she could go and pick.

I'm just going to be like texting Dina from the plane being like, the package is here. Can you go get it? Yeah. Did it come? Is it here yet? The clerk at my local GameStop recognized me and he was like, oh, Jay Strait.

I was like, oh, nice to meet you, blah, blah, blah. I was like, actually, it's not in my name. So please, but you're going to have to put someone else's name here. Actually, I don't play video games. I'm going to be visiting my niece for her eighth grade graduation in California on the day that it comes. So it will be delivered here and I think our dog sitter will get it here in Portland. But because they are also a switch household, they have preordered one.

So the first switch two that I'm going to see, presumably, is going to be delivered to them. And I'm just going to have to watch as they play Mario Kart and covet their console. No, definitely not. Yeah, somehow, yeah, you just definitely won't be able to play a multiplayer game with their nieces. That definitely no, no. They'll be like, no, Uncle Kirk, you cannot play with us. So, hey, if you want to help us afford to buy Switch 2s, you should become a member of Maximum Fun, the network that hosts Triple Click, the podcast about video games, where we bring the games to you. Go to Maximumfund.org slash join, become a member. In addition to supporting us, you also get monthly bonus episodes, including when we just published about the video game Blue Prince, where we go in depth on that game's story and puzzles and all the things we loved and a couple things we didn't love about it.

And Kirk and I complain a lot about Lucens and it's a lot of fun. Big spoilers. It is a good episode. It's really helpful. I think for some people just to hear Jason give his exegesis on the narrative contents of blueprints. It helps me. Because it is easy to miss so much. Yeah.

And there's just a point at which Jason, you just outline a ton of what happens in the story. And I've seen a lot of people saying, you know, it was just helpful to hear that. Oh, that's all broken down. I'm glad to hear that. Just Jason's saying in order, all of the full time. timeline of blueprints. The crazy number of hours that I spent on that game have paid off. Yeah, it's paid off. You have the wiki basically memorized. I do. I do. I have every single book, blueprints, red prints. I got them all. Jason is the wiki. Right. The wiki is actually just an

email forum and you email and Jason. Go to maximum fund.org slash join become a member. All right, Maddie, what are we talking about today? We are talking about a video game called Elden Ring Night Rain. that is coming out for you, the listener, at midnight, your time tonight, I believe, or tomorrow, if you wake up at a normal time and play video games then. But we all got it in advance, and we got to play it ahead of time in a pretty sparse multiplayer environment. I will say I'm very curious how this game is going to go once everybody gets to play it, and once I can hit that matchmaking button and not maybe wait for 15 minutes, that is, of course,

When I'm not queuing up with Jason and Kirk, the three of us did also make some time to play together. Why? Because this is a three-player Eldon Ring. It is a lot more like a Fortnite or a Destiny Strike than base game, Eldon Ring. It has a closing circle that moves around you that you have to escape like Fortnite style. It has a boss that you have to fight at the end. It feels good with three players, kind of like a destiny strike. It has randomized elements.

There's random bosses that generate throughout that ever-smallening map that you're on. It's pretty interesting. It doesn't quite feel like Eldon Ring, although, of course, it's got all those Eldon Ring assets, and it sure does look like Eldon Ring. So I would like to know what do you two think about it. Jason, how much did you play overall, and what are you thinking about that? this very unusual from software video game. Yeah, I was really looking forward.

The three of us had made plans to start to play a little bit before we recorded this episode, but like the servers are down, so we can't, which is just classic. Yeah, we were going to play more, but we did what we did. Yeah, it's interesting. It's not, I don't love it necessarily, but it has some really high highs. And the three of us playing together, we played two full matches together. and I think it actually encapsulated the ups and downs of this game.

The first one, we got screwed, like ran into this super tough boss, like started running out of time and wound up screwing ourselves and, like, dying to the first night. The way this game is structured is there three days. At the end of each day, there is a boss, and the third day is, like, the final, final boss,

and then you're done with the match, and you unlock new bosses, and you unlock other stuff as you go. And so that first match was very frustrating for the three of us, and then we started another one. And this time, we like had a better path on which we went through and we got better stuff and we leveled up on time

and geared up and so on and so forth and then we did much better we got uh i think to the second night very close to beating the second night of our match um and yeah i think it it does have a little fortnight does have a little destiny strike to it but i think the the um closest comparison i would make is to a uh rogue like um where you are kind of where we're understanding the language of it and understanding how to make a build and how to properly root yourself is the key to success, which can be there's a really big barrier for entry there because the UI in True From Software Style is very unfriendly and obtrusive. And there's a lot of stuff that it doesn't seem to me like there's any way of knowing. So you can just get screwed by a random generation.

For example, you look at the map and you kind of like look for different points of interest on your map, which are marked by like little churches or like, little ever jails, which you might remember from the main game of Veldon Ring. Whatever gole, you mean. Yeah, sure, ever golls. And you can like wind up somewhere where you wind in, where you fight a boss that is super appropriate for your level and you take it down with your team. Or you can wind up somewhere where it's an ultra tough mega boss that just immediately destroys you and you lose a level and then you're screwed for the rest of the run.

So it doesn't really feel well balanced to me in that way. or at the very least it doesn't feel like I understand it quite yet. And it feels like you have to learn a lot to really start to understand it. And that is compounded by the frustration of the fact that you cannot enjoy this game by yourself. I've tried. It is not fun to play by yourself. Maddie you tried to, right? Like soloing it. It is not fun.

And so you need to either line up the time to spend with two friends. And that can be tough if you're like a player like me as kids and stuff. or play with radis of the internet, which is also not nearly as fun or good because there's no in-game voice chat as far as I know where you can communicate with those people. And so the barrier for enjoyment is really, really high. And that I think is going to turn off a lot of people. I have a lot more thoughts, but I'll throw it to one of you to give some initial impressions first. Kirk, if you want to share some. Yeah, Kirk, what do you think?

Yeah, so I've played a number of rounds as well. I played with the two of you, which was certainly the most. most fun that I've had, especially because I had some fairly catastrophic performance issues early on that hopefully other people don't run into. Though I do get the feeling the game is not the most stable experience. There are definitely, there's some latency issues in multiplayer that we were having, and I saw that mentioned in a number of reviews. You should say how you solved your PC problems.

I rebooted my PC, the biggest problem. Yeah, that was huge. That's a big Eldon Ring Night Rain tip. Try rebooting your PC. See if that changes anything for you. Have you tried turning it off and on again? plug it in. Yeah.

There still are a number of latency issues. Like it'll have the thing where it freezes for a minute and then move super fast to catch up. I was definitely having that. Even in our match. Yeah, especially during boss fights, which is a really unfortunate time to begin having latency, is when the three of you are trying desperately to stay alive against a very difficult boss. So some technical issues for us. And I would imagine there will be some at launch only because Eldon Ring sure had its share of them.

And that is a bigger problem in a game as unforgiving as this, because in Eldon Ring, if you die, all right, well, you have to go try the boss again. But in this, if you die, due to latency or something technical, you lose the whole run and have to start over. Yeah, I have a lot to say about this game. It is so interesting. I think it puts a lot of things about Eldon Ring into relief because it's so very different. I think you've both done a good job already of explaining how it works. I think it's interesting how opaque it is and how much friction there is between me and the version of me that fully understands this game. There are a lot of upgrades that you get. It's all fairly complicated, though I'm starting to

figure it out. There are, I think, runes that you equip. There are amulets you can equip. You pick up gear as you run through the map, so you'll kill a mini boss, and they will drop gear, and you kind of choose from a little list of things. But you have to move very fast, and I think that's the first thing about this game that I noticed, and that is a very striking difference between it. And Eldon Ring, certainly the way that I play Eldon Ring, which is incredibly methodically and carefully. There's a reason that I died seven times in returnal, and it's because I go really slow in these kinds of a game, and I take my time. So in this game, you cannot go slow because there's this ring of fire circling you, and it really comes on fast. I mean, you drop in,

and then you have a little bit of time to kill mobs and hopefully get a level or two, and then, boom, it starts closing in on you, and you've got to go, you've got to run. And mobility is also not great. I don't think you can run, but you don't have torrent. You can jump up walls in a bizarre wall climbing system that is funny. It just feels like a mod or something. It's barely a new mechanic. It looks almost like the game is breaking as you sort of bounce up the wall really awkwardly. It's a far cry from, I don't know, some of these more mobility-focused multiplayer games. It just looks kind of janky and feels a little bit janky and you feel kind of slow. So you're trying to outrun this fire. and move really quick.

And then you're being faced with these constant decisions about your build as you try to pick up different items. And it's very hard to tell sometimes what is good and what isn't good. You know, some item will have like a certain type of dragon fire modifier attached to it. And another one will have a different type of like dragon's heart attached. And I just don't really know what anything is. Sometimes you're trying to level up really quickly or grab an item and you have just seconds until you're going to die. so you have almost no time. These are all points of friction that I think will be ironed out by lots and lots and lots of play

and eventually a fluency in the game and in your character belt. So I was just struck by that, given how your average multiplayer game like this really tries to onboard you. They really try to show you everything. They work super hard on the UI and the whole experience to make it so that you can really quickly level up and understand the kinds of choices that you're making. This game is not interested in that at all. And I guess that's the end of my thought.

I do want to mention one other thing that we haven't mentioned yet for anyone who hasn't read about this game yet. There are character classes in this game, which is also another layer of complexity that is sort of different from Eldon Ring, and that you choose from one of, I think, eight different character classes. And they're all pretty different, and they level up according to their own just preset path. You don't have to choose individual attributes like you would in Eldring, which is nice. But you start with just a very different build, and they all have special abilities. I mostly played as, I'm forgetting what it's called, but it's the tutorial. Thank you.

The Wilder. Who has like a grappling hook that's really cool so you can fly around the battlefield and this kind of charged explosion attack. That's cool. I mean, I like the idea of learning a different character class, though, again, that's a lot more friction because you have to learn what weapons pair well with that class and, you know, how you should be leveling them up and sort of building them out as you work through the game. And the learning, yeah, that presents an issue. the learning combined with the time restraints. So, okay, for each class, you can play around with them in this kind of hub area, which is you are just by yourself and you can chill and you can upgrade and do all sorts of stuff

with them and get story stuff. You can also spar a little bit in this little training area, but you can't really learn a character class until you take him or horror on the run, on a run. And if you go on to run, it's like a waste of everyone's time if you're just trying to learn things and you're not like actively trying to beat it. And so it's really hard to learn. things. Because like if you're playing with strangers, they might start barreling ahead and you're just

trying to keep up with them and you don't actually learn what you're doing along the way. You're just kind of following them. Whereas if you slow down, either the timer will kill you because the flames circles will get you before you even have much of a chance to explore or like experiment. Or like you just won't be able to do it fast enough. It's all, it's a very frustrating experience because it doesn't, it feels very poorly paced because of that timer. What if there were just a free play mode? Wouldn't that be cool? I'm thinking out loud here, but what if there was just a mode where you could just load in with three friends? And it was just the first day forever, maybe, and you could just screw around.

And like the circle never closed. Yeah, the whole map is just open and you could just go mess around and like experiment with your character. And you don't make progress exactly, but you just can explore and figure things out. I would help. Maybe that's against their design goals because it would allow you to become too familiar with the map and they want you to play it a bunch of times. But I could see that being pretty fun, at least for me. Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of thinking about how easy they make Fortnite for your first match. Like, everyone knows this.

They purposefully put in a ton of bots for you, the first couple matches, so that you win. And part of that is because they want to grab you. Like, the developers are like, we'd like you to keep coming back and continue playing this game. And, like, I guess the most from software aspect of this game is that they're like, we don't really care if you have a horrible time. Oh, so you bought our game. Well, fuck you. You get here.

You might just get killed immediately, which speaking of, can I tell you to this story about how I did go about beating the first boss before the three of us even queued up together? So I did it in my second ever match, and here's how I pulled it off. My first match ever, I died almost immediately, which I think is probably going to be most people's experience with Eldon Ring Night Rain. I cued in with two complete strangers. They immediately were running at breakneck speed. And so I never saw them again. Like as soon as we landed in our three eagles from the sky, those two guys were gone.

And I was like, I don't even know where they're going or why. Like, I just got here. And like, I couldn't keep up on any level. I was like slowly, methodically, like going around the map. And then just eventually died to the fire and they never came back for me because I'm sure they were just like, she doesn't know what she's doing. So I'm like, okay, I don't understand this game.

That's like two, three minutes total of my life. So then I go into my second match ever. And this match is going to conclude with me beating the first boss, which is absurd. So I queue in with two strangers and out of the kindness of their hearts. And this is another classic from software thing. So I will credit them. They just decide to carry me for the entire game.

like, you know, wordlessly in the way that people do in these kinds of games where, like, I chose a class that I, like, didn't understand how to use at all. I probably made it to, like, level five by the end of the match. But, like, I was not helping them. I, like, didn't know how to use my ultimate attack. I was just hanging back, watching them kill mobs, very slowly learning how to do everything. And, like, this was super helpful. Like, just watching what they did, going around with them, seeing everything and how it worked.

making it through all three days. This is how I finally understood how the game worked, because I had these two people basically showing me how it worked. Again, completely wordlessly. We get all the way to the final boss. They're doing all the heavy lifting. I should get no credit for beating this boss. We get to the end of the match. And then who should DM me on Discord, but former Polygon staffer Tyler Colp to say, was that you, Maddie? And yes, it was. Oh, nice. It turns out I was playing with two people that I kind of know because I was playing with and a guides writer from PC Gamer the entire time looking like a full idiot. Like I was not playing well at all.

And I was like, thank you guys so much for literally just teaching me how to play the game. Because I never would have gotten that at all. And so I guess the lesson here is like you got to play with somebody who's going to be patient with you, either because they very literally recognize your gamer tag. And they're like, we're going to help Maddie play the game. and then DM her afterwards and be like, you're welcome. We helped you play the game. Or queue in with two people that you actually know, like Jason and Kirk,

because it's going to take you a long time to figure it out. Like, you just aren't going to be able to figure it out with two strangers that run at a breakneck speed ahead of you. I don't know. I feel like that'd be almost impossible, right? Even if you do, it's way less fun when you're playing strangers. I think what I mentioned high highs before. The best time that I had playing this game was when the three of us were playing. We were on voice chat.

we like beat the boss and we're like hell yeah we're all cheering each other on resing each other doing teamwork those are the moments where the game succeeds and i think if people are kind of are in a situation where they can easily just jump in and spend a bunch of time with two friends playing over and over again which i think is a tall order it's a tough ask um because this isn't the type of game where you're just like online a lot and like you're running into buddies who you you can do stuff on your own and then you run into buddies and they're like hey let's you a strike the way you would in Destiny. Destiny has such a different rhythm because it's not designed in a match-based system. Like in Destiny, you can go in on your own, have stuff to do,

tag team with your friends, like do stuff with them if you see them online, etc., etc. In this, it's like you have to coordinate with your friends to play at a specific time. If you can do that, then, and then also if you have the patience to go through, jump over all those massive barriers of entry, then you can have a really good time with this thing. And we did, in bits and pieces as we played. Yeah, I think it's also a real shame. This game doesn't have crossplay just because it so requires you to have friends to play, like to have friends that you're talking to to play with. And no crossplay is just a real bummer. The fact that Helldivers, too, had that was so great. I know. And it clearly helped it so much success-wise. Just makes me miss it.

To shout out Tyler Culp a little further, he wrote a great review of this game at PC Gamer. I thought there were a few reviews that I thought were helpful, and I'll mention it especially because, you know, the three of us have played some, but we haven't played a ton, and so we're not like the most authoritative on the totality of this experience. One thing that is certainly true, or at least appears to be true, is that the final boss that you fight in each of these rounds is often incredible. I figured for this episode that I should go and just see what they looked like and just found some screenshots and footage of a couple of those fights. And holy crap, I just saw, you know, just the basics of what's going on. But they're like MMO raid bosses.

So I think that's one really cool thing about this game. Yeah. That we should make sure to make clear. You fight bosses throughout this. A lot of the enemies that you're going to fight, especially early on, the mobs in the world are Eldon Ring, you know, bosses that you would have seen in that game. The big bellhead guy or a giant with a bow. standing up on some ramparts, et cetera. You go down into a sort of dungeon catacomb room and you'll fight any of a number of the bosses that you would fight in those catacombs in Melden Ring. And then later on, there are some Dark Souls bosses that get remixed in, which is kind of cool.

It's like from, again, drawing from across their different games. But the bosses at the very end of each run, I believe, are all unique. And they're new to this game. And they are crazy. Like, it isn't just they're big and they're hard. They have unique mechanics. doing all kinds of wild things where they're summoning team kill super abilities where you have to do a certain amount of damage to stop them. It's really like a raid boss. It's like some of the later

destiny strike bosses that were closer to raid bosses where you really have to be coordinating with your team. And I can only imagine how fun those are because we didn't get to them as a team. But like you were saying, Jason, I mean, when the three of us were playing and we're all on chat and we're working our way through the world and we're all resing each other and working together in a fight and it's really chaotic but cool. That was incredible. incredibly fun. So if you can clear that very high bar of getting with two of your friends and playing, you could have a really, really good time, especially if you already like Elton Ring. Yeah. But it's also, it's very frustrating because unlike a raid boss, it's very easy to get to a point

where you can't actually beat it because you haven't done enough stuff in the setup parts of the run to be able to. You haven't gotten good enough gear. You haven't leveled enough. And you're getting punished constantly. If you die in this game and you don't get res by one of your teammates, When you die, you are like crawling around on the ground and your teammate can smash you a bunch of times and that'll res you. But there's a timer. And if you run out of that timer before getting res, you lose a level. You die and you lose a level. And you can really punish yourself by not playing optimally on some of these runs.

And maybe once you've played enough and this is a maybe some people have gotten much further than us and they've gotten to the point where they have everything nailed down and they can just breeze through runs and get to the final boss without a problem. But at least where we are now, the point where the three of us are, um, You can get to a final boss and just be unable to take him down, which is like a very frustrating experience that you don't have in MMO raids because MMO raids don't require you to go all the way back 45 minutes ago and start a run from the beginning just to take another shot at the boss. And it really sucks to lose progress and feel like you're wasting your time. And in Souls games, it's especially in Eldon Ring, you never really feel like you're wasting that much time because you have a save point right outside of a boss. And so you can just

keep trying. And if you are making very little progress, you can go elsewhere and level up, et cetera, et cetera. In this, because of the time limits, and because of the structure of each run, uh, you can really just waste a lot of time. And that's really frustrating for me. Or like lose out on practicing, really. Like you're kind of referring to the, the run back. Like, you know, even if you're literally running back from a safe point that's really far away from the boss, we're all familiar with the, from, some, you know, like, you're kind of referring to the, software experience of being like, I'm just trying to get past this really hard thing. I've memorized its attack patterns. I know what it's going to do. I'm just going back and back and back to

this one guy until I get past him. Yeah. And like this game is never going to operate that way. It can't operate that way because that big boss, those really cool like raid-esque bosses that Kirk was describing, they're always going to be at the end of day three. And they should be, that's the way the game works. But that means you could get all the way to the end. And be like, okay, I've only seen this guy one other time. I hope I can figure it out. And that kind of difficulty is just a super different mindset that, at least for me, has taken some serious adjusting to. And just the overall randomness of every area as well, because I'm really used to the idea of like, okay, every, you know, from software game is going to have all the characters in the

exact same places as they always were. And every time I reset it at a bonfire or site of grace, They're all going to be back exactly where they were before. And in this game, that's, like, kind of the idea in a certain way. Like, there's sights of grace. But, like, every time you die and, like, redo an entire match, things are in different spots if they're bosses, if they're, like, mini bosses or, like, bigger enemies. Those small guys are still there.

And, like, the chess and vendors are all in the same places. So it's somewhat familiar each time. But there's, like, just this element of practicing and getting better and better that is just a super different mindset for me. And that's just weird. I mean, I don't know that it's bad, but it is something that I've had to kind of rethink in playing Eldon Ring Night Rain. It can be frustrating, especially because your upgrades are also random and some upgrades are really good and some are not. And so there's an upgrade, apparently, that makes it so that if you use one of your Sysflasks or whatever they're called

in Eldon Ring, it heals your whole team. There are some legendary upgrades that are incredible, you know, that can be really game-changing, but you're never sure if you're going to get them. And we were talking to someone we were playing about how cool it would be if there was a seed and you could do a seeded run like in Balitra or a lot of these roglykes where you do a run and then you can just try it again if you fail and maybe it puts an asterisk next to it or you don't get as much progress. It goes kind of back to some of the extra features that this game maybe feels like it's missing. It's a little bit bare bones. There are a lot of cool little details. I like that there's a little story for each character that you're

unfolding as you play. They each have a journal that you can read back at their roundtable hold. I like that. I like that there's some lore implications. There is a whole kind of unique story to this, but it's all pretty paired back. And then the game overall, just, I don't know. I know it's not a full-priced game. It feels a little more like a mod for Eldon Ring or maybe something that would have been included as part of the game. Not to say that it should be, Elding Green was huge. It also had DLC.

It's fine. But having it be standalone just makes it feel a little like, okay, there's one thing. And the one thing is very fun if you do it a certain way. And that's kind of it. And there's just not really any of these other options.

And I could see them adding them. It'd be cool if they did. But then again, the game is going to be sold to people now without those features. So I want to talk a little bit about that randomization. You mentioned Maddie. So the way this game

is structured is, like I mentioned before, it's a roguelike essentially. And so you have a limited number of time to choose how you want to build out your character. And so you see a bunch of icons on the map and you can go. You have to kind of decide which ones to go to. But unlike a lot of roguelikes, which deliberately limit your choices so that you feel like you're making interesting, educated decisions, this game gives you dozens of choices from the get-go. And you'll look around and you'll all these different interesting things on your map and places that you could go do. And again, maybe once you've been playing for 20 hours, you'll have a deep understanding of exactly where to go and what the optimal path is. But at least from the beginning in those early hours of playing this game,

it's very difficult to even know if you're making a good decision. And that can be a really frustrating thing where you don't even know what your options are, let alone which is a good one or which one will get you X thing and which one will get you Y thing. And then you add the randomness of like, oh, this boss here could actually be a super powerful enemy that's going to ruin our entire run. And it becomes really frustrating to have to deal with when you're planning out your route and trying to figure out how to optimally, like, get through a run. And then on top of that, you feel like you're being punished if you take the time to slow down and like contemplate. Like if you look at your, because of the way the fireworks and because that circle is going to close

in on you after the first, I don't know, five minutes, 10 minutes or whatever, you feel it's very fast. It's like when you get to, after you beat a boss, it'll usually drop this little orb thing that'll get, let you choose between three, three options. And they can be weapons. It could be shields. It could be abilities and powers and stuff like that or stat boosts or whatever. And you have to make that decision really quickly because otherwise you're punished. And sometimes the wall of fire might be heading your way. Sometimes you might be cognizant that like you're wasting everybody's time.

If you just stand there like thinking too much about your decision. and that can be really frustrating because, again, there's just so many potential options and so many potential builds you can go with. It's just like it's such a learning curve that there's really, like I enjoy the learning curve of a game like Eldon Ring because I can slow down and think. And to your point earlier, Kirk, you can be contemplative about it and you can really take your time and optimize your strategy and learn levels and really just like sit there and think. And the time limit here, I don't know, maybe if I really sink into this game and play a ton more, maybe I'll grow too appreciate it. But at least on first blush, I really find it off-putting. Yeah, you're kind of reminding me of how clever. I mean, I know we talk about Hades all the time and it's not just us, but like how clever that design is in terms of giving you super limited choices early on.

They do spread out. They do get overwhelming, especially your first time through, you're like, I don't know what the symbols on each of these doors mean. But eventually, you're going to be like, okay, there's a pattern here. Every time I click on a door that has this symbol, I actually get this same set of enemies or this same power or the same type of conversation with this NPC. That's interesting. And you could even take notes on it if you want. And then that becomes familiar.

Even though the moment-to-moment combat of Hades is extremely fast and you do need to rush, quote-unquote, and really, like, get through it in order to not die or perform poorly, you are still observing the environment as it changes and like you have certain clues you can pick up on. In this game, something that I remember you were saying, Jason, when we were all playing together, was just how obfuscated our choices were. Like when you're just looking at the map, you're like, I don't know if when we head to that area, whether the boss is going to be at our level or not. We just won't know until we get there.

And maybe we can just kind of scrape our way through if they're a little too hard. But sometimes we would end up with a boss that we're like, well, that was. is really easy. And so it kind of, I feel like there needs to be a predetermined path in a roguelike that like levels you up as you go really cleanly. It can't just be an open world and a roguelike because, but that's kind of what's happening here in a weird way. Well, it's an open world and a roguelike and it's on a timer. And the timer is definitely the probably most defining element of this game. It is and likely the most divisive. It's the one that makes it feel the most different to me because Hades, as a point of comparison, is a really helpful one.

Because, yeah, when you're in the middle of a fight in Hades, the only decisions that you're making are how to avoid enemies and how to kill enemies. And then you get to, you know, a hub area where you're- Where you're buying upgrades or you're having a little bit of a narrative beat. There's no, there's nothing rushing you. You're not going to die if you don't make the decision quickly. You can think, okay, hang on, so I'm doing this build. Oh, but I could actually switch builds right now. This is a great point.

Maybe that'd be a good idea. Oh, we're going to take a gamble here, and I'm going to switch over to Athena because that'll give me this better shield ability, whatever. And those, you know, that pacing variance makes the game a more dynamic and just comfortable experience. This is not that, and I think that's very interesting. And I really don't, you know, we're being very critical here because this game is very strange. But I do want to stress, first off, of all the reviews I've read, a lot of them are making the same complaints as us, and they're also all saying,

but like it works, it's fun, because it is and it does. It works some of the time. It has moments where it works. It can be fun if you're with two friends and you're all kind of in it for the wackiness and some of the comedicness of a Thrumsoft game. Right. And my specific point here is that, yes,

it works according to its certain stringent requirements, but also that it is just very specific. This is, they are doing one thing. They are not doing a whole bunch of things. And it's just not really a game that's interested in letting you in or giving you familiar rhythms. Because I've never played a game like this before that pushes you this resolutely and quickly in one direction and that forces you to quickly and constantly make these snap decisions all the way through, which I think some players will probably find exhilarating and it's certainly different.

I think it could, for me, at least, I feel like it could be more exhilarating if there were other things the game did that, like, made it more accommodating. And I know that, like, I think there is a level of charm and from software games just being, like, deliberately obfuscating and obtuse

and just kind of, like, hiding things to the player. I'm fine with that a lot of the time. But in this game, I mean, just as an example that the three of us were talking about yesterday, there are, there's this wall of fire, the circle fire that it encloses on you and is your time limit. like these blue flames. And then there's also these kind of like, um, slip, slip jet things. I forget

what they're called. They're these like elevators essentially. You press them and you leap on them. But they look like the blue fire. And it's just like the most annoying thing because you, you find them. And it's just like, oh, I don't want to go in there. Oh, wait, actually, I can. That's just a little thing. Also, the map is just absurd because you can't zoom in on it. You can open it. It appears on your screen. You can kind of navigate it. Place waypoints. So you can be like, hey, team, let's go over there. But, like, so many of the icons on it look exactly the same, and it's so hard

to really have to squint and, like, get close to your screen to be able to tell them apart. And there's no, like, UI on the map that tells you what they are. It won't be like church. It won't be like a castle or whatever. You just have to kind of figure it out. And furthermore, there's no pop-up.

There's no, like, radial in-game for dropping pings or quickly communicating with people. So you do have to go to that map in order to do a lot of waypoint drive. I wonder if, they're going to change that. Yeah, although the map is in game. You do it while you're, you can do it while you're moving. It's live. But yes, but yes. Right. But still, having something where you're just looking around and you're able to just really quickly drop a pin on the thing you're looking at would be pretty helpful. Yeah. That feels like such an obvious change that I could actually see them

implementing it quickly. I will also say, I do wonder if once the game is out for everyone, if there will just be social conventions that develop that are very positive. I'm sure there would be. I think that could really changed the way that people feel about this game in a very positive way. If just certain people learn these maps, and I know this is the From Software fandom, or at least a certain segment of it that I choose to engage with, where it's just people who are like, I just want to carry somebody or like help out with the specific boss and like, that's the thing I'm into. I'm just going to only spot on this map.

Like, this game is very friendly towards that kind of pro-social behavior. and that is also a from software design ethos. And like even though Miyazaki didn't make this game, it does feel very Miyazaki coded to have a game that's like, people need to help you. You can really only play this with three people and it's not going to feel that. Apparently they're developing a version of it that will work with duos. The developers have said that.

And that would certainly help. I think it would open up the game to more people. But solo, it feels really bad. It's super overwhelming. A lot of the bosses are designed in, a way that they just need a distraction. They need one player to distract them and get agro so the other one can hit them in the back. It's not like a normal from software boss where like you can kind of get away with just fighting it on your own. A lot of the really big bosses here

have mobs as well that are attacking you from all sides. This is why it's almost impossible to play solo. I'm sure some of you listeners are extremely good at games and maybe you can pull it off, but it's certainly not designed. There will be solo freaks that beat the crowd. I'm about of this game solo and it'll be amazing. Solo naked runs. I'm really looking forward to this other form of freak, parentheses, complimentary, who enjoys leading people through games and is like, this is actually the best route through all the sights of grace that avoids the encroaching

fire but also gets you like pretty good boss power-ups along the way and will be ready every time for the boss. Like there will probably be a meta that emerges for every area and then like guides that tell us what that meta is, it's just, we're not there yet. We're not in the version of the world yet that has all those additional things. And the game doesn't come with them. And it probably never was going to, because it's a from software game. They're going to make you figure it out. Yeah. I think it just comes back to obfuscation plus the time constraint for me. Like the obfuscation of a from soft game is one of the defining elements of those games. A lot of things are obfuscated.

the way the game works, the story, it's this really interesting, opaque experience. And if you have the time to just sort of sift through it and experience it, that's one thing. But the minute you put a time constraint on it, it just completely changes the experience. And I think the collision of those two things is this game's defining element. And it's something that I'm sure some people will think is cool, but it's also something that really makes it very specific. And it just makes me think of how from is always putting some limitation on their games in a way that feels slightly unsatisfying or a little bit frustrating.

I mean, Bloodborn had this multiplayer mode that this reminds me of a little bit, where you could go into those chalice dungeons with a friend. I can't remember if you could do those with three people or if it was just with two, but it might have actually been, I think it's actually three players. So it is pretty similar to this. And it was this fun mix of PVE exploration where you're going through the chalice dungeon together and then there's a boss. But it was also kind of limited because,

the world's, you know, the chalice dungeons were kind of repetitive. They weren't as cool as the world and they still had, they weren't as cool as the game world. And it still had the limitation of, you know, you go into the chalice engine, you fight the boss and then your friends despawn and you have to redo matchmaking. The same as in another from game. Meanwhile, in Eldon Ring, everybody just wanted to play that game with their friends. They just wanted to get some friends together and just walk around this big, cool, open world. And you almost could do that. I kind of did that with some friends, but it was always this weird thing where you're really supposed to be fighting a boss. And then once you fought a boss, you got despawned and you had to redo matchmaking.

And the matchmaking was this whole insane process where you had to drop items in the world and whatever else. So they just never quite give people what they want. And even in this game, there isn't this, you know, time, like no timer mode where you can just mess around and just have fun for a while with your friends. It's like, no, there's going to be this crazy restrictive time. where this fire chases you into a boss fight within, you know, whatever, 15 minutes or something. And you need to be leveling up and you have all this stuff that you have to be doing so you just can't relax. So it's another very specific from experience, which is on brand for them, but also is on brand for them. I think the timer is one thing.

The fact that it's a timer that also locks out parts of the world is really what makes it just kind of like puts the shitty cherry on top of those. It funnels you. Of the Sunday. Because it's like, because you can't even go back. Well, okay, because it's like, well,

you can go back on the second day to the same areas. But like, but the point, but in a game that's like about exploration, a series that's about exploration, it really restricts you because it, like it makes it so that exploration can't keep happening. You can't keep exploring.

And it's really not fun to be in the middle of a dungeon or something or a boss and have the boss really down to a sloth. really down to a sliver or a health or like be just at the end of this little dungeon area only for then to fire the fire to come and lock you out of it because you happen to be 30 seconds too slow or something like that. There's definitely some tension there which which can be enjoyable I suppose but I don't know. I found it more frustrating than not in general and yeah locking you out of there like if there's a time limit if there's a timer on the top right of your screen and it was like okay we have 20 minutes to get through this first phase I feel like that would almost

be more enjoyable than the way it's set up now. And I don't know, even as they say this, I'm kind of up two minds of it because it is fun to be like, all right, we got a hustle, we got to bail. There's a fun little tension. Yeah. It's such a certain energy that is also exhilarating, as Kurt keeps saying, like, once we kind of got it for the second match, we were all like working like the cogs in the machine and being like, okay, next side of grace, let's go.

Everybody pick your power ups, hurry, hurry, and like, alerting each other. the fire was coming and one of us was stuck in a UI screen still picking their little power up and like pensively contemplating what they were going to choose and we'd be like, go, go, go. Like, there was some fun involved in that. But it's also stressful. So, yeah, there is that. It is, it's kind of, it speaks to the dichotomy of this game. Like, and I think the reviews speak to this too in that, I mean, I mentioned at the beginning,

high highs and low lows. And I think sometimes it's both at once and you're just kind of like, I don't really know how to feel about this game because on one hand it's exhilarating. On the other hand, it's extremely frustrating. And I wish that the design wasn't this way, but also I'm getting these great moments out of it. So I don't know. I think it'll be interesting to see if any of the three of us or all three of us, like, have the urge to keep playing even after we're done covering it for this episode. And if we want to keep playing. Because I definitely felt like, like after we were done last night, I was like, oh yeah, hell yeah, I want to play more. Like, let's keep playing.

Yeah. And so I'm curious if without the triple click obligate, if the three of us will feel compelled to keep going. I mean, I could see it, if only because I, like, have a standing gamer night with Tyler and Nico. So, like, if they want to play, I do it. But I'm also, like, I don't know, because we also have other stuff we like to play. So we'll see. We'll see.

I'll keep the listeners updated. So that, I mean, it's interesting. But you need a standing gamer night. You need something like that. That's the thing. We mentioned barriers for entry. One big barrier for entry is the game itself and the, you'll pass. and the way it's designed.

The other big barrier for entry is having to get two friends and schedule. It's kind of like scheduling D&D night. It's like you've got to have this session planned into your schedule. And that might be the barrier. Maybe if I could play more seamlessly, I would jump more into it. But that might be the barrier that makes it so I can't just like regularly play this game and keep going with this game. And I imagine that's the case for a lot of people who don't have just like a spare

couple of hours every night that they can get together with their friends. And like specifically two other people that you play games with. It's not just that you need one or three because that's not going to work. You need two other people. Yeah. And on top of that, if you're playing Destiny or something like that and you're like or a World Warcraft and you're like, all right, time for raid night. We're all getting together this Saturday night.

It's going to happen. We're making it happen. You know you are going to get something out of that experience because like there's, you're not going to just like fail a run because 30 minutes in you got hit by some bad luck and ran into a boss that like wiped your whole party. So I think that adds to the frustration is that like you could block out two hours of your night, get two friends together, like get past all that and then still just not have a great time because of the RNG, because of the frustrations of this game or because of latency and like technical issues. So that also kind of like takes away

some incentive to even get together with your friends and pull off a night rain session. Yeah. Yeah, I'll see if I play with the same group of friends that I play Hell Divers with. I can see it being really fun if they get into it. It's the kind of thing that that group of guys might get into. So if they did that, I would play along with them some. And I'll definitely be watching this game. I think a lot of people will probably get something out of just watching YouTubers and Twitch streamers play this game because it would be really fun to just watch Iron Pineapple or whoever just run through this thing.

And I'm sure all of those from soft content creators are going to have a ball with it. So at the very least, you know, people can do that. It doesn't even cost you anything. And that'll probably be a lot of fun. Yeah, that might be a good way to experience the game. Well, I'll just put a button on this conversation by saying, this is when we really wonder what Duskbloods is going to be as a game. Now that From Software is entering its multiplayer era, I don't know what to expect anymore.

The big question for me is going to be, does Dustbloods have some sort of a time limit? I think now I'm going to be coming from this with that question, first and foremost. Yeah, great question and not one I would have even thought to ask a few months ago, but now I'm realizing that it can completely change everything and make the game feel exhilarating. Let's go with exhilarating. All right, let's take a break and then we'll be back for one more thing. Hey, Sydney, you're a physician and the co-host of Sawbones, a marital tour of misguided medicine, right? That's true, Justin. Is it true that our medical history podcast is just as good as a visit to your primary care physician? No, Justin, that is absolutely not true. However, our podcast is funny and interesting and a great way to learn about the medical misdeeds of the past as well as some current not-so-legit health care fats. So you're saying that by listening to our podcast, people will feel better.

And isn't that the same reason that you go to the doctor? Well, you could say that. And our podcast is free? Yes, it is free. You heard it here first, folks, Sawbones, Merrill 2 of Misguide the Medicine right here on Maximum Fun, just as going to the doctor. No, no, no, still not just as good as going to the doctor, but pretty good. It's up there. The Flop House is a podcast where we watch a bad movie and then we talk about it.

Guys, how does E.T. poop? Well, he's not that regular, but as he's gotten older. He has two cloacas, one under each arm. No, I'm just looking forward to you going through the other ways in which Wild Wild West is historically inaccurate. You know how much movies cost nowadays when you add in your popped corn and your bagel bites and your cheese critters? You can't go wrong with it. Cabell Mustache here at Henry Cattle Mustash is the only supplier. The Flop House. New episodes every Saturday.

Find it at maximum fun.org. And we are back. I'll go first because I'll be quick. I've really pretty much been playing this video game. So the only thing I'm watching on television right now is trash, which is to say that I've been watching Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares for the first time. I'm a big, we're a big Gordon Ramsey fans in this house. We've watched a lot of his shows, his network of shows. And I just wanted to note, we did try to go back and watch Hell's Kitchen, which is the very, I believe the very first show that Gordon tried to do here in America.

I think he also was pretty famous in the UK before that even. But like, you can kind of get a sense of like where he got to start with Hell's Kitchen. And I really don't recommend it. We stopped because it wasn't fun and because the way that Gordon was mean to people on that show was like unproductive and not as fun to watch. And I think a lot of people who don't like him probably remember that version of his TV persona where a lot of times he would like insult chefs for the sake of insulting them, kind of seeming to be playing it up for the camera and like being really performative and like just kind of like telling jokes and stuff.

and having it not really be about the food or his skills as a chef. And like, that's super not interesting to me. And I know that the last time I talked about Gordon Ramsey on this show, some listeners in the Discord were talking about how they like kind of had that sense of his reputation being that. And I was like, that's so interesting because I haven't really seen that. And then I watched Hell's Kitchen and I was like, oh, the man has actually changed his TV persona significantly over the decades.

And Kitchen Nightmares is like kind of in the middle of that persona shift where you still get some Gordon who's insulting people purely for the sake of insulting them, but then you also see the start of like compassionate Gordon era where he starts being like, but how do I actually help these people transform their kitchen in a productive way? And those episodes are really great and fascinating and like actually about the food and he teaches people how to cook and that stuff is what Dean and I really enjoy. So I will say for anybody else who like is kind of skeptical of him. I think there's like different eras of Gordon that are more palatable. The modern one might not be what you think. He's, he's gotten a lot softer over the years and I think changed into a different

kind of guy. But also if you're going to go back in time, I wouldn't go back quite as far as we tried to do. But going back to Kitchen Nightmares, which is 2007 and onward, still pretty good. It's like the start of the new Gordon and I think is a pretty fun show. I've got to say this is the most slot I've ever had about Gordon Ramsey in my life. We watch a lot of them in this house. Dina loves to cook, so she has a lot of opinions about cooking shows, and I just like to eat food. That's all I do. And he's a media magnate. I mean, he has like a gillian shows and is really the center of his own. And he also has legitimately good cooking tips. I'm not going to undersell it. Like if you want them, he's got them.

Because my sister's family got into Master Chef Jr. And watching that, I was like, oh, okay, so this guy is just playing a variety of different versions of a character on TV. Yes. That's right. Master Chef Jr. is like fully extreme on the other side. And it's fascinating. He's really like... It's the most warm and cuddly Gordon Ranji. Figured out his series of personas, which is also a skill. Jason, what's your one more thing?

Speaking of a series of personas, my one more thing is a TV show called The Rehearsal that just ended its second season. This is a show created and starring the comedian Nathan Fielder. A lot of people, there's a lot of buzz around the first season. season in 2022. But the premise, in short, is that Nathan Fielder gets anxious about things. And so he creates these elaborate rehearsals to prepare for them in advance. And that could range from social interactions to child raising. And in this season, the theme is airline safety. And Nathan Fielder sets out on this journey for the season of the show to find out why

airplanes crash, why pilots don't communicate with each other very well, and if he can find a way to improve that through a series of elaborate rehearsals. And man, this season touches upon a whole lot of things ranging from... This is confusing to me, because I've seen some screenshots and they do not indicate... This show gets so crazy. I haven't even watched it. I've only seen the screenshots. And I'm like, how is it? about airline safety. But that's what season was like. From breast milk to autism to people who take too long to make a move on people of potential

significant others and the signals that one sends out when they want someone else to kiss them. But it all culminates in this finale, this season two finale that just aired and is one of the most brilliant pieces of television. really makes the whole season kind of retroactively into one of the most brilliant pieces of television that has ever been aired. It is unhinged. It is simultaneously hilarious and also poignant, and it just says so much, and it's such a work of art. I really don't want to say anymore, but there's this kind of like, I guess, structural twist that comes at you.

And so if you're considering watching this, you've seen some buzz about it, whatever it is, try not to get spoiled, because it is. quite a plot twist up there with any other TV plots I've seen that comes in the season two finale and it is a banger. It is quite a watch. And the way he ends it is just like so beautiful and brilliant and God, I mean, there's so much I want to say about it, but I can't without spoiling anything other than to say you should go watch it. Everybody should go watch it. Season one was pretty good, but season two especially is just a work of art and should just be watched. It's It's only six episodes. It's on HBO.

Just watch all six episodes. It'll take you a couple of nights. And it's just worth every minute of it. It's just insane and bonkers and brilliant. Can I just say that I watched it as well. And to underline that, it is unbelievable. And the finale is genuinely an incredible episode of television. It totally rocked my world.

And I appreciated that as far ranging as the season was, you mentioned all of these different things that he's rehearsing. It is also very focused on this one problem, the problem of a subordinate not being able to speak up and question his or her superior. And that that is like at the heart of the problem that he's exploring is that basically the co-pilot has the ability to take the controls away from the pilot if they're questioning the pilot's decision making and that in a number of crashes, that did not happen when it could have. and how do you engineer a system in which the second in command, who is empowered to take control, feels empowered to take control, which is actually a really thorny problem, as explored in the Tony Scott film Crimson Tide, which many of you will probably have seen and will be aware of, but also is, of course, reflected in all manner of parts of our lives, including our government.

Hey, it's like if there was an executive branch that was completely running amok, and maybe the other people, the systems of checks and balances that were able to step up and do something and are legally empowered to do so actually felt like they could. But unfortunately, they don't. And as a result, the plane, aka the country crashes. All right. All right. We're getting a little off the rails here. But it is a very cool and focused season, despite how far ranging it is.

There's also a meta layer of that in that Nathan Fielder as the pilot of this show takes into some pretty extreme directions. and a lot of people could have stopped him at any point and chose not to. It's true. It keeps trying to put people in that position. Yeah, it's like, it's like makes HBO culpable for funding the show and allowing it to happen. I'll just leave it at that. Also, we take some fun shots at Paramount. Oh, man.

Oh, God. It's great. It's such a great season of television. Oh, my God. I can't wait for you to watch it, Maddie. Yeah, I'm going to watch it. It's incredible. Kirk, that map when it's like, it's the hardest I've laughed in a lot.

Well, it started in Germany. And, God. Anyway, Kirk, what's your one more thing? Take us out. My One More Thing is a show that I watched the first two-thirds of on a couple of flights that I was on this weekend. It's a good flight TV show, I would say, called Your Friends and Neighbors, which is airing on Apple TV Plus. It is about to have its season one finale, so I haven't gotten that far yet. It's all right.

It's a good, it's like a pretty, uh, sorted, uh, sorted. fun kind of cheap thrills show that I had a perfectly good time watching, though it kind of got me thinking a little bit. So to just explain what the show is, this is a John Ham vehicle. So it's already going to be fun because John Ham is great and he's fun to watch. He is a hedge fund shark who is incredibly successful and wealthy. He lives outside of New York City and, you know, works for a big hedge fund. He is married to Amanda Pete. They have two kids. They have a massive house. He has everything. He kind of tells the story and voiceover at the beginning of the show of how you finally can afford your own life and you're making presumably millions and millions and millions

of dollars every year. And he has finally made it. And then everything comes crashing down. Amanda Pete cheats on him with his best friend. He is, they then are divorced and he leaves the house and she lives in their house with his kids. And then at the beginning of the show, he is fired from his hedge fund for what appears to be sexual impropriety, but then turns out to very quickly is revealed to be a kind of a power move where his boss, like, edged him out using the like smokescreen of sexual impropriety just to get him out and get all of his book and like take all of his money. So John Hamm is left immediately with nothing, super over leveraged.

No one knows that he's lost his job. He has debt. He has all of these massive financial obligations because, of course, if you're that kind of wealthy, you also just have a billion recurring payments. And so he has to figure out how to start paying for things. And he begins to- Private school, tennis lessons, house payments. Yeah, they do a lot of the, like, listing of all of our expenses. It's like those articles, like, that would pop up and be like, we make $400,000 a year. Here is how we're broke. Like, do you guys remember that? They would pop up on, like, see NBC sometimes. Like, how we barely just get by. I can only think of it. I can only think of. the drill tweet with the candles, but yeah, same idea. Yeah, I think it's a commonly explored idea now that you can have a lot of money and be completely over leveraged and not be able to afford your own life. It's not like the candles thing because it's actually like you look at it, the breakdown, and at first glance it kind of seems reasonable. It's like, oh, okay, like here are some things there. And then you're like, wait a minute, it's like $10,000 a year just on vacations. Like what?

We're hiring a professional tennis player to give our daughter life. Right, exactly. That's the type of lifestyle. And I know people like this. And in fact, the show is set in what Westmore it's called, which is based on Westchester, the New York suburb, where I live. So it's like it's a very, it hits close to home in some ways for me, even though I do not. This is the country club lifestyle is not mine or people I hang out with regularly. But I do know people in that world.

So it's fun for me to watch, too. Yeah, so the big twist here is that he loses everything and he begins breaking and entering and stealing things from all of his friends. And then in the process, he kind of begins to see them in a new light and he begins to understand this world of wealth and, you know, the sort of various facades that his friends put up and, you know, sort of see through it all and kind of puncture this increasingly, apparently empty American dream that he was once at the apex of, but actually was really empty to begin with. It's an okay show. I think it's not great. I think what's so interesting about it is that it feels quite a bit like American Beauty, but like an American Beauty that came 15 years later. The composer's name is Dominic Lewis.

He's done a good job. He is really clearly channeling Thomas Newman's score from American Beauty. The first thing you hear during a voiceover, so this is, you know, John Hamm is floating in a pool, and his voiceover is basically, yeah, that's me. You might be wondering how I got here. And the music is like marimba. It's this like clung, clung, clung.

And I was like, holy, what is this? Is this actually Thomas Newman doing the score? No, it's Dominic Lewis doing a Thomas Newman impersonation. And it kind of feels like American Beauty, but it's a little bit more just kind of straightforwardly materialist. It at times looks like a car commercial. There are a lot of camera techniques where, I don't know, you know, someone will be in a car driving to the city and the camera will do a like, like zoom out to a kind of horizon. shot that is accompanied by a sound effect.

The way that it looks and moves is very slick. And then overall, I think the show can't quite sense, it can't quite shake its fascination with these marvelous things. Every time John Han breaks into a house and he steals a watch, they do a little ironic commercial for the watch where he explains this is this watch and it's, you know, actually like costs $500,000 and they only made this number of them or this is an air maze bag and you have to do all this stuff to get an air maze bag. And it's, you know, like a lot of these kind of wealth porn slash critique shows, it is both, it's having its cake and eating it too, eating it too. It's showing you all of the obscenity of this kind of extremely wealthy lifestyle while critiquing it and showing it is empty. But at the same time, you're really kind of watching this show because it's like a bunch of hot middle-aged actors having like hot illicit sex with one another and him breaking into these fabulous houses and stealing these incredibly beautiful, cool things.

And so, I don't know, it's kind of trying to do this social commentary where I actually wish the show was more of a crime show. I think if they focus a little bit more on his criminal, you know, his criminal operation and him learning how to be a better thief, I think that would be fun. And that's kind of more of the breaking bad side of it than the American beauty. Our lives are so empty, even though we have everything part of it, which leaves me a little bit more cold. And it's also interesting because I'm reading Long Island Compromise, Jason. the Taffee, Brodsner, Akner, book, which is so interesting and fantastically well-written, and so similar to this, I think. It's another exploration of very wealthy people living in a very similar part of the country. It's looking at wealth from all these different points of view.

Of course, it's a book, so it is able to go deeper on character. But also, I just find that what it's saying about wealth is so much more nuanced that I think the shallowness of the show, which isn't necessarily a critique, is just brought under relief by the fact that I'm, like, reading the book at the same time as I'm watching the show. They're almost complimentary because they're doing such different things. So, yeah, I think it's a pretty fun show. I'm looking forward to how it ends.

I'll probably finish it. It was perfect for a plane. Now that I'm home, I'm a little, like, I don't know, there's other things I'd rather watch, but I think I will finish it. It's pretty short. It's very easy to watch. And it's a fun time.

It's a good enough time to at least finish the season. I think it's interesting. You mentioned wealth porn, which of course makes me think of Succession, which is like the ultimate like wealth porn show. And a show that had no interest in showing wealth as being something cool or like desirable at all. Well, but okay, but I actually think it's a really interesting contrast because in Succession is a show where the characters involved are so rich. They're billionaires or the B that like wealth is never something they think about. They will write like Roman will write a check for a million dollars like as a potential to dang. in front of this poor kid and not even think about it. Like they're flying around on private jets and like living in a world that is like almost

a different world. They're living in a very different world than the rest of us. And I think it's interesting to contrast that with the characters, the kind of upper crust of your friends and neighbors because they are very much living in a world where they have to worry about money because they're all over leverage. And because they're like keeping up with the Jones is a very heavy handed theme there. But it is very real where it's like you kind of, you feel like you're poor, even though you are very clearly not. You live in this house that is

worth $10 million and you have a Hermes bag and a collection of the highest-end Rolexes and all this stuff. But because you are making a salary or you are making like hedge fund money, you are not making like capital B billion dollars money. You do not have that kind of wealth. So I do think it's kind of, it's an interesting contrast because it kind of shows you how there's one plain of wealth where money is not something you ever think about or worry about and earthly concerns are not really yours. And then there is another where you are obscenely rich, but like you have to work and you have to think about that level of wealth. And I think it's interesting to think about sociologically. And then like there are layers below that too where

like some people would see like a doctor or a lawyer as being obscenely worthy, wealthy. And they're also like in a different category where they're like also thinking about money. And it's just, it's very interesting as an American to live in a world where we have real billionaires, be billionaires that, uh, uh, they see us as ants. I mean, put it another way. If we're going to take out the guillotine, there's some layers here. There's some levels here. We need different sizes. We need to figure out who gets it first. It makes you think about how like if you have, if you are of a net worth of 10,000,

thousand dollars and you know someone who has a net worth of a million dollars that's 10 times that but then you meet someone who has a billion dollars and that's add another multiple of a thousand to that and even just putting that in perspective it's kind of unfathomable amounts too like even trying to imagine how much a billion dollars is is really hard to do for the human brain and all because there's a point at which money becomes infinite because it compounds on itself so it actually just stops mattering at all yeah i mean i think that's an interesting uh comparison socially and an interesting artistic comparison to compare succession in your friends and neighbors, because they are very different, and I think that succession really successfully sidesteps the materialist concerns and the wealth porn angle, partly because of the world that it's depicting, they are so wealthy that wealth is just the water they swim in, and you never even get a sense that anything is unusual. They never really appreciate or admire anything around them, even as they take private jets and helicopters and go to these fabulous estates. And also they're just miserable, horrible people who are just sitting in a room somewhere.

They don't have to think about it. Something I appreciate about Long Island Compromise is that it really explores what it's like to be born poor and then get into come into wealth. Or like what it's like to be born wealthy and what that means for your children and your children's children. And like, do they lose their drive? Those are themes that I think are really interesting that are just like a totally different world, a much more realistic world than the billionaire class. Right. And I think, well, Succession does a good job of just not ever fetishizing any of the things that these people are clearly able to afford and just focusing on the characters.

I don't know. The tropical islands and the scenery of like some of those vacations. Some of the locations are the closest they come. But even then, the way they shoot it, the lighting, the staging is so rarely fabulous. And they make sure all the people are miserable even while they're there so that you can be kind of bad at this. them and be like, what you were in this beautiful place. Yeah. Right. I mean, and it's, it's really just not doing the kinds of sweeping, establishing shots that your friends and neighbors would do, and that a lot of, I would say, maybe lesser works do than succession, where they're just,

they just can't resist the drone shot of the fabulous houses and the city skyline and all of that, which is just a little bit, you know, dialing it up in that way. The Long Island Compromise comparison is also very interesting. I think that Long Island Compromise, there are some very similar plot points across the two. There's a renovation that goes horribly wrong in both stories where you see two different people who have theoretically plenty of money, start a renovation, and then the renovation goes wrong in that way the renovations do. And suddenly you're being told by your contractor, oh, well, God, we found, you know, whatever shale in the backyard, or we found asbestos. It's going to be a lot longer and a lot more money. And then both of these people are

realizing, oh, God, this is going to be horrible. Of course, the circumstances in Long Island compromise are closer to coop the main character of your friends and neighbors circumstances where they have lost their money and no one knows it yet. But there are some just interesting parallels between those two things. And yeah, it really just seems like we're at a time where we are really examining wealth. To bring it all the way back, and this has been a long one more thing, but whatever, it's an interesting one. To bring it all the way back to American Beauty, American Beauty is not really about wealth. It was 1999. It was the end of history. It was that year of Fight Club and the Matrix and all of these films and these works of art that sort of

all existed at this odd time where it felt like to a certain subset of America anyways, history had ended. We'd kind of just figured it all out and we won and it was going to be fine. And now why are we so sad? Why are we so bored? What's really going on here? And so American Beauty is just, I've got my job, I've got my wife, I have my kid, I've got that life, and I'm so unfulfilled, what the hell. This is, you know, your friends and neighbors is significantly different. It's much more about money. It's much more about having enough and the feeling of precarity that I think has really set in in the, whatever it is, 16 years since American Beauty came out.

And I do think that that's an interesting evolution of the same type of story. I think it does say something about what's happened to us and how America at least has changed in the intervening years. Yeah, I mean, just one more thought is that like this world that you can wind up in and the trappings of that and how like you can get to the point where at least in the show's world where you, where losing your job is enough to push you to crime within like a few short weeks or a few short months. And maybe a little bit heightened there, but then again. Sure, but I don't know. I mean, it's like you're so you should be making. If he was making, I don't know, let's say he was making a million dollars a year or two million dollars a year or something like that. anyone normal, like most of the world would look at that and be like, holy crap, like I would be set up for the rest of my life on one year of that salary.

That would be a life-changing amount of money. But like, it is very realistic and very easy for Americans to fall into this trap where it's like, you got to have the private school, you got to have the country club. And once you get into that world and all of your friends are part of that world, it is impossible to just kind of sever from it. You can't tell your kids like, oh, well, lost my job. You got to switch schools. Like, can't go to tennis lessons anymore. It's really interesting to me because it's very real and it's like it's very easy to see how people can fall into that trap. Yeah, it is interesting and I think interesting that it is such an element of this story and it was so not an element of American Beauty.

It just wasn't something that was even mentioned. Even as it was about, you know, primary breadwinner, at least one of the two breadwinners of his family, like quitting his job and having this whole blow up and eventually dying. Like it never, the whole financial part of their life just wasn't even really consistent. And if anything, it was viewed as, yeah, maybe we'll sell the house and we'll lose all this crap and we'll finally be able to, like, find ourselves again and have some peace. Yeah, but I mean, I think after the 2008 financial crash, like, all media changed on this point. And like, precarity just became a theme across the board for even, like, your rich characters. Well, I mean, look at how wealth disparity has changed in the 15, 16 years.

Like, all of these things that have happened. Right. Certainly the financial crash was a huge part of it. Whereas, like, American Beauty era, it was just like, we'll just get another job, which, like, you could say. still say now, but it just seemed so plausible then that the character could get one, that it would be comical to suggest otherwise, whereas now it's like, okay, we can believe that John Ham's, John Ham could be canceled, quote unquote, and it's now impossible for him to ever reenter

the hedge fund arena. He now has only one other choice. Like, that does seem weirdly believable within the extremely tiny, clicky, high stakes world of the specific millionaires he's a part of. I haven't watched the show. I'm just ripping. Yeah. No, he just has like a contract that means he can't work for two years. And yeah, they've contrived to put him in this position. Right. But that contrivance works to create a sort of heightened, you know, crucible for him to then be in the middle of, which then makes for good drama. And I could see why they do that. I mean, the theme that precarity just never goes away even when you think he made it is so interesting. And so current, so modern. Yeah. And I think relatable, even for like us normals to be like,

okay, well, I'd rather watch a show about precarity. At least I understand what that feels like. It's so interesting. Like I think you look at like Silicon Valley, right? And a lot of people like wound up getting jobs at these fang companies where they're making crazy amounts of money and maybe think that they're set for life. And then here comes AI. And that's about to just like all tip over because of that. And these people who thought they were like established and maybe bought houses in San Francisco

and are like in this same kind of world that's depicted in the show now might be in the same city. It might have to go to steal their friends and family stuff. Yeah, it sounds like a great option. to just pivot to stealing from your friends. Yeah, so I would say it's like a B show that leads to A conversations as evidenced by this one more thing. It's perfectly fine and it will definitely lead you to have some... I'm higher on it than you are.

I like it more than you do. Also, Olivia Munnett is in it too and she's great. I do like her. Yeah, she's having fun and Amanda Pied. It's nice to see her in something again. It's got a good cast. And of course, Ham is the best. He's pretty good.

He's all right. He's pretty good. He's pretty good. He's pretty and he's pretty good at acting. Yeah. All right. Well, that's my one more thing. Yeah, I mean, I guess we can stop talking about your friends and neighbors and bring the show to a rolling stop.

Extra bonus episode at the end of this. Just a little extra. A little extra for you. For all you listeners. The listener. And, you know, that's what we give you here at Triple Click. We just, you never know what you're going to get in this week. This is what it was.

Next week, who knows? More of this. I will see you. both next week. Yeah, see you both next week. See you next time. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum

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