Triple Click - Triple Play: Metaphor: ReFantazio

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

Jason, Kirk, and Maddy take a deep dive into Metaphor: ReFantazio, the new game from a team of former Persona directors at Atlus. They talk about Metaphor's gameplay, its similarities to (and differences from) Persona 5, and what they like and don't like about this stylish new RPG.One More Thing:Kirk: Beetlejuice Beetlejuice (2024)Maddy: Agatha All AlongJason: LOST (2004)LINKS:Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy Triple Click Merch: https://maxfunstore.com/search?q=triple+click&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

Let's stop avoiding it. It's time to talk about the election. Of the next king, of course, based on the floating rock in the sky, that communicates with all of us psychically. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week, we played Metaphor Refantazio, the newest game from Atlas, makers of persona. It's got some similarities, but it has a wholly original fantasy world and a story to tell about politics. I'm Maddie Myers. I'm Jason Schreier. And I'm Kirk Hamilton, and hello.

Hello. Hello. It's us. How are you guys doing? You're ready to awaken some archetypes. Yeah, I'm ready to pull out my mechanical heart in front of a beautiful moonscape. Yeah, we're about to clasp hands and discover something about ourselves. So the options are pull your heart out, put like a mask on your face and like rip off your face or take a gun and put it to your head. Those are the options.

Right. Which of course. One way or another, you're getting to know your inner self. Those are the summoning, the monster summons. Some sort of violence is required to really get in there. Definitely need some violence. Yeah, but we'll get to that. Yeah, you know, another way that you could get to know us better,

you, the listener, could get to know us way better. And in a very different format via our job archetypes is by going to maximum fun.org slash join and becoming a member. And that would allow you to listen to our bonus episodes. And the reason why I say that we have archetypes is because we are playing D&D, right now. We are playing Dungeons and Dragons with our DM Matthew Mercer, whom we paid to be our DM, thanks to all of you. Find folks who go to maximum fun.org slash join and become members. Thanks to you, we are playing with the coolest DM ever. And we are not ourselves. We are, we are completely

fictional characters that we have devised in this. We really, we just sink into the role. You'd never know it was the three of us. Listen, you don't need to say that. The people maybe not know. Maybe we're amazing actors, and they're none the wiser. You know what is amazing about Triple Quest, and I feel like we haven't talked about this yet, is that Kirk recorded original music for it, and it's beautiful, and it's really, really cool.

Thank you. And, you know, you could just listen to hear Matthew Mercer and also we're there, too. That would be good enough on its own to go to Maximumfund.com. dot or slash join and become a member. Plus, you get the backlog of all the other bonus episodes. We do one every month. Blah, blah, blah. But really, you just want to hear that cool version of the triple click theme and then also all the other music and soundscapes that one Kirk Hamilton recorded. It's pretty cool. And also Jason's book is out. I feel like we should have said that last week, but we didn't. Anyway, it's out. Go check that out. That's also there. Yeah, we're recording some of these

early. We're actually recording this one on the day that my book comes out, which is like, yeah, our time, our sense of time is a little bit scrambled. That's true, yeah. And we're recording it early because you're on, you're going to go on your book tour, right, Jason? Yeah, I'm about to go on tour, so I will be off, out and about. So while you're listening to this, Jason is out and about, conquering the world, the literary world. That's right. When this goes out, I will be in Salt Lake City, Utah. Nice. We should also say that if you can't become a member for whatever reason, we will be releasing Triple Quest on the main feed about each episode will go live

on the main feed about a month after it goes on the last release. Yes, that's correct. Not true of every other bonus episode but just those ones because they're so cool. We didn't want to keep them under our hat for too long but if you want to listen to them first and early then becoming a member is the only way. So what are we going to talk about today, Jason?

All right, today we are going to talk about a video game where you rip your heart out and replace it with a mechanical something or another. Hearts are a big theme in this game. Metaphor, refund, Perhaps one of the best games of the year, at least in me, and one of the worst titles of the year, if not of all time. Metaphoric Fantasio is a new game from Atlas. It is helmed by three of the key people behind the persona series, the director, the art director, and the composer. And it is in many ways a spiritual successor, or really like a successor to persona three, four, and five.

It has a very similar structure. It is set in a brand new fantasy universe. So unlike the persona games, it is not set in Japan and it does not involve a high school. It is more of a kind of romp in fantasy, uh, D&D style adventure where you go to different towns and meet up with all sorts of fantasy creatures and knights and magic users and such. But it plays by a lot of the same rules as persona. For example, there is a calendar system and the structure revolves around different operations that you must complete by a certain date and you can fill in your days by hanging out with your, friends or going on dungeon crawling adventures or just doing stuff in town. I think it is a fascinating game. I have been madly and love it, but I'm going to hear what you guys think. So let's go around

and give some kind of initial impressions, talk about where we're at and what we think of the game so far. Maddie, why don't you start? How much have you played? And what do you think so far? I am also really enjoying it, despite saying on last week's episode, I think it has a slow start. I think we'll get into that and how the beginning of the game works. It doesn't quite start with the bang that Persona Five does, but it really grew on me. I would say after about the first six or seven hours, I kind of was like, okay, I get this. Big part of that is the combat, but I'll say how far I am also. Just last night I played through, I think it's called the exhibition.

It's the part where the characters need to bring the head of a monster to a big public event. I'm not going to say more, but that's all the information that you would need. If you've played the game... That is in Brile Haven, I believe. You're in the town of Brile Haven. That is correct. Yes. And I am still remembering how to use the multiple fast travel systems in this game. There's one with your airship.

I know it's not an airship. It's a gauntlet runner, but it's kind of an airship. And then there's the other fast travel system. Anyway, there's a lot of systems in this game. And that might be where it falls short for me sometimes. Sometimes I think it's like a little too complicated in ways that, don't always win me over. But the part of it that I'm really loving is not just the story, although I certainly want to see what happens. And some of the characters are really fun.

I really like the elf lady character, Holkenberg. She's probably my favorite. I think she's really funny and charms me a lot. But I really like the combat in this game. And I kind of didn't expect to. It gets more and more complex as you go along. You keep unlocking these different archetypes that we've been referring to. So kind of like Jason Intimated, there's like knight archetype and a wizard and a mage and like all these sort of classes that you would be recognizing from other fantasy literature or games. But you have to keep switching these archetypes all the time and like leveling up the archetype with whoever character is attached to them. And that's part of the game is that you don't get tied to one class. And part of the tactics involved are that

you have to kind of think about like, okay, how do I keep my party well-rounded? But also what are the multiple archetypes that I should be training each character in. And then that introduces potential synergy attacks. I can't remember if that's what they're called across archetypes, where you're sort of like teaming up with multiple characters in your party to do a different kind of attack. And then there's like elemental attacks and like certain, certain enemies are weak to certain kinds of elements.

And that's just like a level of complexity that I happen to really enjoy. I know I've complained about turn-based RPG combat a heck of a lot on the show. So I figured I'd come out strong and say, I actually think it really works here, possibly because it's so complicated that it's just really scratching the itch in my brain. And I'm just, I'm just super, super enjoying it. But again, I'm like 25 hours in. I don't know if I'm going to get bored of it or what.

But right now, I'm like really in the thick of it, really digging the combat, actively seeking out combat. This is very weird for me. I'm not, I'm not normally like running up to enemies and being like, show me what you got, guys. Because usually I'll be coming up and being like, I got to level up this new archetype. that I just attached to somebody. You got to make sure they're doing good. And, oh, let me mess around and change them. And, oh, this is fun for me.

So I'm really enjoying all of that. It helps that it's very snapping at combat. I think that's one of the reasons it's not, doesn't have quite as much friction as a lot of games with turn base, especially random encounters. Kirk, what are your thoughts and how much have you played? Well, so I've been complaining about various things about this game to both of you for many weeks.

So it will not surprise you to. hear that I actually like this game. I think it's good. I have so many complaints about this game. We complain about the things we love. Of course. I really do. I am very conflicted on a lot of things about this game. I've found a lot of things about it frustrating. A lot of it, like individual elements have fallen short for me as I've played, especially in the first 20 or so hours. It's gotten better as it's gone. But at the same time, so I've played like 50 hours of this game. Yeah, you're for the furthest of any of us, I think. I am the furthest of the three of. of us, man, stuff has gone down in my game. I'm like kind of nearing the end of, or at least like

a climactic showdown. I've had a number of climactic showdowns, though. I played through five cities. I think you can think of this story as oriented around cities and bearing in mind that we're recording this early. By the time this episode is out, like people have been playing this game for a week. So some of our listeners will have like finished or something probably. So like it's so to be a little more specific about the structure of the game, you and your party move from city to city. And each city is its own little block of the calendar and its own like, just like in Persona Five, like its own story dungeon and then a series of side dungeons and also sort of social activities and other things around the town that you can maybe explore and discover,

maybe a vendor that if you level up your wisdom stat, like you can unlock the ability to buy cool things from them or whatever. Oh, I literally just found that one last thing. Yeah. So there's a lot of stuff like that. And so you can kind of trace your progress through the story as in terms of like geography, like how many cities you've been through. And then once you've been to a city, you can fast travel back to it, but you have to manually travel in the gauntlet runner elsewhere. So I'm on the, I finished the fifth city and I'm like on to, I don't know, I won't say too much at that point because I'm pretty far in. Whereas I'm on the third city by comparison. Yeah. Yes, you're on Burlhaven, in the third city.

So, yeah, this game is really cool. I really like a lot of things about it. It's neat to just play a new RPG, like set in a new world with sort of new rules. A pretty cool combat system, like you said, Maddie, I really have grown to like the combat, even though there really are a lot of things that for me at least, I just, it took me a long time to warm to them. Like the main character design, some of the main character design, some of the, the characters in general, the dungeon layouts. I think the dungeons are kind of like gray and boring.

I'm just nowhere near as into a given story dungeon, which will just be like a gray cathedral or something, and it's just hallways compared to something like Persona 5, which is like a flashy bank heist or, you know, like a whatever, like a casino that you're making your way through. I think Shoji Migoro is a great composer. I love the work that he does on the persona games. There's some really great tracks.

The battle theme, of course, is amazing with that guy chanting. I think that that's really cool and inventive. I've never heard anything quite like it before. It's really good, but it's kind of the exception for me. There are some other tracks that stand out, but a lot of the general music just, it's kind of, I don't know, it matches with the tone of the world. The world overall feels a little bit turgid to me, and the music sort of does too. Some of it is the sound of the orchestra.

It's just this kind of plastic-y-sounding. orchestra sample sound. Like the melodies can be strong, but the actual just sound of the music doesn't really work for me. And that's a really hard thing to articulate because I know that's very personal, especially when it comes to music. So I don't know. That's a hard thing for me to get into, especially because I think Muguru is a great

composer and he's written a lot of really cool stuff for this game. But even that, it's not sparking joy in me, you know, in the way that a persona game would, his music and a persona game would. So that's kind of what I've been. wrestling with, I guess, is that there's a little bit of like a spark of joy that is missing for me when I play this game, even though I still do like it and have had a good time with it. And I think some of it is just that I miss some of those specific things, the real world setting, the style of music and art in a persona game. And this game has so many of the structural elements of a

persona game, despite being very, very different, I think, in terms of tone and world building and storytelling and just I really kind of overall approach. So yeah, I've just just kind of mixed on it, even though overall I've I've enjoyed it for what it is. So I have played, I'm up to the fourth city and so I played about my timer is like 33 hours or something like that. I love it to death. I love everything about this game other than the performance, but that's another issue that I'm sure we'll get into. Here is why I think it evolves on persona, the persona series in persona 5 and here's why it feels to me like a great iteration, like a persona six and all but name, a fantasy spinoff of persona that takes the series in a new direction. There are a few reasons. One is that it gets

rid of random dungeons entirely and every dungeon feels handcrafted. And I get what you're saying about them feeling a little dull and gray, but they're all the same. I mean, they're just hallways with little crawl spaces. No, they're not. There's some that have like different gimmicks. There's some that have like monsters that you have to avoid in different ways. There's one that has like a little like semi-stealth mechanic where you have to like avoid a giant, like human monster. There's one that's like a giant tower that you have to scale. There are some that have like a ton of chests and you don't know which one is going to be a mimic and which one is going to be a real monster. Point being, these are all, even if you think they're kind of samey, they're all drastic improvements of a randomly generated memento stuff or like percent of four and percent of three dungeons, which are the reasons that I have not.

on and replayed either of those games. It's because I don't like randomly generated hallways. That's one. Another thing is that a lot of the, there's a lot more quality of life stuff that it improves upon from Persona 5. For example, you get these stats similar to Persona 5 where they're kind of non-combat stats and you have to build them up to unlock different conversation trees and like to get certain social links or advance in certain social links. You have to get these stats like imagination and wisdom and courage and stuff like that. And unlike persona five, where the system is kind of opaque here, it shows you exactly how far you are to how much more you need to upgrade each one. It makes clear to you exactly how well you're doing if you like pick the right conversation option

and like how many stat points you're getting. It's all very clear. That's just one small example of like the ways in which that the quality of life stuff has improved over persona five. Another thing, and this might be the biggest for me is that to me, the persona system, collecting personas and mixing them together and only having your main character be able to use them, whereas the other characters are just kind of have their defined abilities

and that's it. To me, that system is cool and I always liked it, but I love the job system so much more. And the way in which it works, the way in which you're constantly thinking, I mean, to Maddie's point earlier in which you're constantly thinking about,

like, I want to gain experience in this job. want to improve this job. I want to figure out how much further I can go on this tree and unlock this new class, which might be the evolution after the last one, or I want to go do that social link so I can make more progress on this class tree. The way that all works together is exceptional in my mind, and it makes me really excited to make my way through combat, just like you, Maddie, where I just really enjoy that feeling of like constantly making progress, so it never feels like you're wasting time. I talk all the time on the show about how my biggest enemy,

the thing I hate most about video games is when they feel like they're wasting my time. And when random encounters don't feel like they're getting you anything, they always feel like a waste of time. Whereas in this game, it feels like you're constantly making progress towards something. And it's just beyond like just kind of amorphous leveling up and like getting

some gold or whatever. You can see your meters of how much improvement you're making on each job and you know exactly what that's going to unlock next. And it's a really fun and elaborate system. And also, and this is key for me, is you can customize every member of your party with this job tree. So you're constantly thinking about your balance and your strategy and different jobs you want to experiment with. And then you get these quests from this guy who's like this game's equivalent of Igor,

which encourage you to experiment with different job types and level them up. And it all works exceptionally well for me in a way that the persona system I always felt like was lacking. So in those three ways, among many others, to me it feels. like an evolution of the persona series, even if it's stitching the setting and some of the aesthetic choices of the persona games, to me, it feels like it's taking the gameplay and evolving it to another level. And like, if and when we get a persona 6, I want to see it taking more iterations from this rather than just being kind of a straight line from persona 5. Like, this to me feels like a next step for this type of gameplay in a lot of different ways.

I think that that's true. I think it does feel like an evolution mechanic. from persona. And I do think the job system is really great, especially as I've opened it up. I just had a boss fight that was super hard. I had to restart and rebuild my whole party and really think through my weaknesses, my strengths, and my synergy abilities, which are super key because there are so many and they're so complicated because you need certain classes to activate them, two, and then eventually three people have to have certain classes, but they get really powerful. So going back and figuring that out was really rewarding when I then beat the fight. So I do, I totally agree that I think this is like a mechanical evolution. The combat system is an evolution. I guess it's just that I, it feels

like a slightly different thing. Like it doesn't feel like it's just persona sticks in all but name. It's like, no, this is metaphor of fantasy. I really do feel like this is a different game. It's an iteration of persona in fantasy setting. Or it's even an inversion maybe of persona. Like in persona, you're in the real world and then you're, you know, you know, you're high school students in the real world, and then you're entering this fantasy world. And so the fantasy world becomes the metaphor, as it were. And this game is literally an inversion of that. So it's narratively a complete inversion where the game is the fantasy world,

and it is explicitly about a group of fantasy characters reading a book, like your character carries this book, right, that is about the real world and trying to understand how things work in the real world. So it like takes the conceit of persona and flips it, which is just interesting, but it's a very different experience. Yeah, I think what you're getting at is something I do agree with Kirk, although I don't know that I agree that I just don't personally happen to like love exploring the modern day settings. I'm sympathetic to your point. But like, for me, what I like about this game is actually that it is really different. And like, while hearing you talk, I'm kind of realizing to myself like, oh, that's part of what I didn't love about persona actually.

And what I do like about metaphor is how creative and surprising a lot of the world building decisions are. I actually more agree with you about some of the dungeons I don't think are visually striking per se. But the combat is fun enough that I don't really mind that. And also the overall story as it's been building, I think is fascinating. And I've been really impressed by it, actually. So just like the overall theming of the game is something that's quite difficult to do. to like wholesale invent a fantasy series where there's a bunch of different,

in this game they're called tribes and other, like, in Tolkien, they would be called races. But like in this, they're called tribes where it's like, there's cat people and then there's like, you know, people who have three eyes and like,

you're an elder who just looks. Yeah, bat people. And like, yeah, the bat people are the best ones. They're the greatest race. Yeah, exactly. There's all these different tribes. And then of course,

there are hulking monsters that are called humans. Well, that's what's so cool. is that like there's this other species that's called, quote, humans. And that's not explained. I mean, I'm sure it will be eventually. I don't know when, but that's part of the mystery of this world is that the, quote, humans are constantly attacking. But they look nothing like the humans that we know.

They look like Hieronymus Bosch paintings. I mean, that's literally what they're inspired by is this is this wild ass painter from hundreds of years ago that people should Google who made just whack-ass paintings that are awesome to look upon and terrifying. and like true body horror stuff in terms of these monster designs that are really fascinating. But like the tribes and their interplay, it's really difficult for most fantasy writers seemingly. I don't know why, but it's difficult for them to come up with versions of races that aren't just transplants of the ones from our world. Like, okay, take Dragon Age, for example, I love Dragon Age, but it is just Fantasy Europe.

And like, okay, that's fine. There's like a France in there. Like, look, we love Dragon Age, but like there's like a literal foreign. prance in those games. And like, it's fine. You know, say what you will about Game of Thrones, also love those books. But like, we all understand. It's fantasy Europe, et cetera, et cetera. And in this game, you can't argue that that's what's being done. Like, these are wholly creative tribes. They have the religion is really fascinating, like the theocracy that you mentioned, Kirk. I'm just impressed by how wild and weird and, like, fascinating and surprising these different

tribes and their backstories are. And I find that really refreshing for a fantasy game. And it's frankly something that I just didn't really think was present in Persona 5. I mean, I liked it fine, but like there just wasn't that level of like creative fantastical imagination in terms of developing the game because that's not what that game was trying to do, nor should it have been. But this game is doing something that I think is so impressive for a fantasy game by just creating this wacky world that is unlike anything I've seen before. And even though it may start out, I was like, oh, great, we got like a freaking D&D group here. I can recognize all these characters.

But then as it went along, I was like, oh, I have no idea what's going on. Like, these characters are not operating according to the stereotypes of like elf, cleric, et cetera, that I would have thought they have completely different personalities, backstories, and everything. And I think that's really cool and commendable. Yeah, I agree. And, yeah, I mean, I think, well, to set persona aside entirely and just take this as a fantasy story. Yep.

I think that this story, yeah, I think that it's a cool story for the reasons you say, I think that the world building is cool. The different tribes are cool. I think also something that I've really enjoyed about this game is that the story is like they're really trying something. Like it's got a lot of thoughts about politics and culture and society that like they're not all the most sophisticated thoughts and they're expressed through archetypes that sometimes are very simplistic. Luis, for example, the main villain is just like a Nietzschean will to power like made manifest. Literally at one point he's like, God is dead. He like says that.

And he was just like, power is everything and I am powerful. And he's kind of the big bad. And it's like, I don't, I'm not wild about him. He just sort of is this jerk. He's very pretty and he kills people. And apparently he's, he's a bad. And he's got red eyeliner and it's terrifying, terrifying stuff. But he is just one character, you know, alongside the head of the church, the sort of Pope, basically.

And then all these other sort of people who are each expressing different views. of what, like, who should have rights and who should be left behind and how the most people can have the most good. And then the premise of this game is that through a series of events, basically, Louise kills the king, pretty openly. Like, he's pretty open about it. He kills the very beginning. Like the first cutscene this happens. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. And again, and I'm imagining that a lot of people listening to this will have already played, like, many hours of this game. So Louise has killed the king. The king is dead, but he had, the king, although, the king, although, alone had access to some super powerful magic, which this isn't totally explained. It might be by the

end of the game. But it's like the king is able to do magic that no one else can do. That's like cosmic almost. And he casts a spell that summons this massive floating castle or it's his castle. It like floats in the air with his face on it. And it's like, okay, y'all, it's democracy time. And he basically imposes democracy on the entire kingdom via this spell that will decide the next king based on how many people trust you. So like if you're able to get the trust of the biggest number of people, whatever that means, you become king. And there's a bunch of other rules that are really funny and interesting and kind of confounding. For example, if you are close enough to the top, you become immune to attacks, like physical attacks, so people can't just assassinate you.

But only if you're in the top. You get a secret service. It's a metaphor for that. It is a metaphor for the Secret Service. And it is very like, only if you're at the top. So the king didn't really think of the fact that like if you're then at the top, you're like immune to damage. You can just go like kill whoever you want who's like not in the top 10 or whatever it is. But Lewis has figured this out. But this stuff like kind of comes up and there's a lot of like fun angling and trying to figure out ways around the rules.

And, you know, your party is very concerned with killing Louise because you represent the prince who people think is dead. But actually he's not. He's secretly alive and under this curse. So that's a. cool setup for a story. And I really like the fact that this game, so much of this game is a road trip with a variety of different characters. Of course, each member of your party is a member of one of the tribes. So you get a UG, you get a parapas, you get, you know, you get everybody eventually. And each one comes with their own baggage and their own, their own sort of take on what it should

mean for someone to become king and have power. And while I don't know that I have a feeling I'm going to finish the game and not be like, wow, that was also like a really eye-opening treatise on democracy. I do think that the game is like constantly poking and prodding and exploring these ideas. There are so many characters. There are cynical characters who don't believe that this could work. There are characters who really think Luis is right because they're like, well, he's, you know, just, he thinks that power should just be power and that means that we'll all be equal, but then other people who like argue with them. And like, it's really fun to just play through a game with this story. It's the thing that I've really, one of the things that I've really enjoyed about it

is just watching that play out, because I don't know what's going to happen next. Yeah, it's an unabashedly political game. It's a game about people who are striving to, like, make the world better against, and fighting against oppression and fascism. Good timing. I know. Yeah, it's like, I saw an interview that was like, the creators essentially saying, this is not, like, this should not be extrapolated to be referring to any real world events.

But, uh, I mean, that's always pretty funny. There will be some things, some things that I've played through that not everyone has seen, that I could just see being very, being mapped onto current events and very funny. sort of horrifying ways. Yeah, I'm very curious to see where it goes. But it is, there's a lot of little small moments. One of the things that this game is really masterful of doing is telling a lot of little stories. So sometimes it's like little social link moments where you'll be out with one of your buddies doing a social link event.

And like, they'll offer some kind of depressing outlook on the world. And you'll both be like, well, hopefully we can make the world a better place one day. Or like, hopefully imagine a world where this thing. thing didn't happen, where this racism didn't happen, where this oppression didn't happen, where there weren't people just dying from hunger in the streets of the city that, like, should be able to afford to pay, like, feed and clothe and give places to sleep to everybody. And then a lot of, it's just a lot of bleakness. And I'm very curious to see where it goes.

They're like little stories. Some of my favorite most enjoyable moments are like little kind of activities you can do in town where you're like talking to one member of some oppressed tribe or like some native tribe and they'll tell you a story about like their tribe and what they went through and it's always really interesting. Especially the mustari, right? I feel like the missouri is. The names always kind of escape me.

But the mustari are the ones who always like will tell you these really incredible stories. And they're kind of. They're defining characteristics is that they have a third eye in their forehead and it's cool as hell. And they wear masks all the time. And they're kind of the, uh, the, the, um, the, I guess they're called pagans by the church. They're kind of like the Native American.

They're part of an oppressed religion. Yeah, they're kind of like the... Indigenous tribes is how I might compare them like in real world analogs. Yeah, they map in some ways. And then like Maddie was saying, in some ways they resist that kind of mapping. Yeah, I know. That's what's so interesting. Sure.

Yeah, well, that's... Okay, yeah, to your point. I mean, I do think that this game is really good at creating. And it's actually interesting that the creator said they don't see it as a real world analog because... it's actually true that so many of these are so unique in their own way. Like, it's hard to... Yeah, I think intentionally.

Yeah, on the European tropes or even the Asian tropes. It's a metaphor or an allegory as opposed to a literal representation of something. Sure, yeah. It's a metaphor as opposed to a simile, I suppose. But yeah, but even metaphors are usually pretty like kind of spot on as opposed to this where it's a little bit more. Yeah, I know. Maybe it's not a metaphor. I don't know what I'm saying.

No, it's cool. It's very creative. And it's a lot of... fun to explore. I will say I want to get into a downside that I think we've all experienced, which is I'm playing on PC, mostly on my Steam deck. And something that kind of makes it less pleasant to explore some of these towns and go and talk to people is that the performance is really bad in the towns. It can go, I just put on my frame rate counter per your suggestion, Kirk. And yeah, it can go to sub 20 frames per second in towns on Steam deck. It runs much better on my PC.

My PC, it's stable. Although I will say pro tip out there if you're playing on PC and you're wondering why it's just running like crap on your computer. When I loaded up for the first time, it was like, it was running a five frames a second and I can understand it because I have a good computer. And then I realized, after some troubleshooting, it was running on my integrated graphics for some reason. And I had to like brute force it.

So another PSA to those of you. Yeah, you mentioned this in year. One more thing. Anyway, the performance, I think, really takes away from this game in Towns. because part of the pleasure of it is just wandering around these towns, talking to people, overhearing conversations, riding on your sword, which is the thing you can do, is you can just like use your sword as like a skateboard and ride it around a town. And like the, as you pass people, they'll be like, oh my God, that guy is riding on a sword. And the little pleasures of so much

of this exploration are really kind of marred by subpar frame rate, I think, not just like 30 frames a second, us being 60 frames a second stop, but like, well below that. And I don't, yeah, I just wish, I mean, for me, the steam deck, the portability is worth that sacrifice, but it's not great. Yeah, not as much of an issue for me on Xbox, TBH. I feel like I've really got lucky. Good to know.

Taking the Xbox code and even playing through XB play on my Steam deck, it's been great. Yeah. So when I play on PC, it's fine, especially if you bump up the resolution to 200, or to 2x, 200% because this game, like, doesn't have anti-aliasing. So otherwise, it's. pretty alias. Like it looks like a jaggy. It's really kind of ugly. But if you have to just run it, I guess, internally at a double, like you super sample the whole thing, which then can really kill your performance on Steam Deck. And yeah, I think that it looks pretty shambolic on the

Steam Deck. Like, it's just very jaggy. And yeah, it doesn't run at a good frame rate. And I agree, this game, I mean, it's still worth playing it on deck just because it really lends itself to being handheld. But yeah, I mostly stream it onto my deck from my PC, which just sort of requires an extra step and it's sort of annoying. I think actually, like moving beyond just the technical limitations, I think there are just like, or the performance limitations rather. I think there are technical limitations to this engine that I wish were better. Like I don't like moving around this world.

I don't think the game feels good to play. This is like more so than persona. This is the first time this engine has really been used, at least in my experience, to do like full 3D, like independent camera, looking around at buildings, looking up at the sky and kind of like, moving in a 3D world. And it just, the movement feels off to me. It feels like kind of, I don't know, like I can't quite control the character that I want to, the way that I want to. And then there will be sequences. There's like a forced stealth sequence that's frankly insane where you're like sneaking up on people and pressing X to knock them out. And then the camera cuts to black and it cuts

back and you've like relocated the body somewhere else. So you're, you almost warp and teleport. You know what I'm talking about, Jason? Yeah. And it's like totally strange. Like there's a lot of stuff like that where I'm just like minor though it's not like uh agree I'm not and I'm remember I like this game these are the small things it's just like one of the examples of like the dozens of small things where I'm just like ah like if this felt good like if this ran well it would be much more pleasant and then I think a much bigger issue that this game has is UI and UX design we just talked about this was this was Zelda but I think it's like a big problem with this game that there's so much inconsistency and redundancy throughout the UI and because you spend so much of the game

bumping through menus and just like figuring out your party because really this is like a visual novel and like a like database spreadsheet management game like that's kind of you know and those two things are great and they like go well together and I really like it and but you spend a lot of time in the menu just being like okay hang on so I have a whole bunch of things that I need to change for a given fight to optimize for it between equipment and inherited skills and it's just you spend a lot a time in the menus, and the menus are not really well suited to that. They're just kind of not arranged as well as I would have hoped that they would be for this kind of game. And if they ever do like release, you know, whatever, re-metaphor, re-Fantazio, updated edition in a few years,

I would imagine that they'll streamline some of the menu stuff. And you know, this strikes me as a system that will be really cool once you've unlocked everything and can really just kind of play with every single possible archetype. Yeah. And it's easy to just mix and match and, like, build out really complex parties, which I would imagine would be a thing in a new game plus. Or I know the developers have said there's, like, going to be more for you to do after the story's complete.

So I'll be interested in how that plays out. And maybe I'll, like, Bing in here if I finish the game in time before this episode publishes, just to provide an update on that. Because I do feel like I'm just getting my way, you know, getting my arms around the system because it just takes a long time to unlock everything. So I could see the system becoming really, really cool once you've fully unlocked it and can just play around with it. Bing! Future Kirk here, and indeed, I did manage to finish this game before this episode went up, just before it went up.

It took me around 80 hours and thought I'd just add a little update here since I said that maybe I would. For starters, yes, the archetypes system does get pretty cool. When you're really far into the game, you unlock some really elaborate archetypes. And it definitely took some grinding for me to get to the point where I could. could actually have the points that I needed, like the, I guess it's called archetype XP, and also the mag that I needed to upgrade all of my archetypes, because it requires, like, a lot of unlocks to get all the different archetypes unlocked for everybody. But anyways, yeah, it's pretty fun coming up with a sort of world-dominating party.

Still overall, more mixed on the game than I wish I was, but I'm glad I played it all the way through. Okay, back to the show. Bing! One more quick thing I'll say before we take a break. I want to end on a little bit of a positive note, which is... I have another positive thing, too. Okay, cool. So then I'll throw it to you.

Is that Persona 5, one of the things that really struggled with, and one of the things that was fixed in the kind of royal edition, the definitive version that came later, is translation. It had a lot of errors, a lot of kind of broken English, a lot of grammar that didn't make sense. Long-time listeners will know that I'm pretty sensitive to this stuff. And I just want to say metaphors, translation, and localization is impeccable.

It's fantastic. The writing is just really good. And I am just really enjoying. It's got enough of like that unique kind of persona style where you'll see the boxes where it'll be like, you felt your heart swelling up with pride. It's kind of got that second person narration interstitially. But it's also just got great writing. The characters all talk in their own unique flavors.

And you can really tell them apart from their dialogue. They have accents, but they're not like annoying like Dragon Quest style accents. Right. Yeah. You can't understand what they're saying. And I just think the localization is really, really good. Kirk, what's your positive thought? And then we'll take a break.

Yeah, I like Gallica, actually, the fairy, your fairy friend who is basically your shot caller, you know, your Morgana. She's a hilarious character. Or your teddy or whoever, who calls out what's happening in combat. Though when you're fighting an inclement weather, every single time you hit a weak spot, they're like, that was supposed to be their weak spot. And they say it every time because they need you to know that. But by the seven millionth time, I'm like, I know, guys.

I went into combat and it was raining. I thought you were going to say something positive, correct? I remember that with persona too. Like with persona, like Morgana would always be like, oh no, like it didn't work that time. But it's helpful when Gallica is like, oh no, he's he's hexed and that means if he attacks, he'll take damage too because I can't keep all the status effects straight. So it's nice that she always tells me that. No, but the last thing I wanted to say that I really appreciate about this game is I think the pacing is terrific. Considering how much I've played about 50 hours and where I am in the story, I'm.

probably about at the point where like the story should end and then knowing these developers, it won't and it will like, then I'll have to go fight God for another 25 hours. Like, who knows? That's usually how these things go. Yeah. But based on, I've been surprised, very pleasantly surprised throughout this whole story by how quickly things move along and how, yeah, by the pacing. I think like each city is actually usually a pretty constrained time frame. And even though I kind of go through the dungeons as quickly as I can,

That's my persona habit so that I can relax afterward. I don't have quite as long of a period afterward where I'm like, okay, like, it's the 15th day where I'm just like hanging out with people and watching social link conversations and, you know, kind of like biting my time. It just moves much more quickly. And also the narrative develops more quickly. The characters are introduced at a really great rate. Like you really are unlocking party members as you go.

Each party member I've actually found to be more interesting than the last one all the way up through the last party member. I would agree. They're like, I've really enjoyed each new character more and more. And I've also then, by that time, gotten to know the initial characters who I wasn't, I didn't really warm to at first. And I just feel like all the pacing, the pacing has been very, very strong in a way that to bring it back to Persona 5.

Persona 5 is not. Like, persona 5 starts strong, that has a huge dip for like the first 10 hours where you're in that castle and you're like, what's happening? And then it sort of builds and it gets going. And then it has more like peaks and dips and it's all over the place, especially if you play Royal. Like, it's like such a mess where this game has really just felt like a solid line, a solid build and like more and more psyched with each, you know, coming chapter. And that's great. Like, that's hard to do. Yeah, totally agree. It has like the pacing of an anime or like a TV show where

like you really feel like, oh, let me play the next episode, which is what you want out of a huge long RPGs for it to feel like you're really watching a really long season of TV. It's great. And yeah, it just, and it hasn't dragged for me. And I've, I've really appreciated that. about it. It made yet drag in the final act, but so far it's so good. I think that's really really cool. Cool. Bing! It drags in the final act, but you knew it was going to do that. These games all do that. Whatever.

Bing. Cool. Awesome. And in conclusion, the metaphor story is racism bad. On that note, why don't we take a break? And then we'll be back with one more thing. Ego some John Hodgman. At Ego some Janet Varney. And we're the hosts of EPLibus motto,

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Kirk, Maddie, this time for one more thing. Maddie, why don't you go first? Sure. So I am watching a Marvel TV show again. They keep pulling me back in. I don't know how. think you're out. Just when I think I'm out. But you know, I'll say this. I'm curious to hear more about this one.

Yeah. So I don't know, I don't know that I expect you to ever watch this. But if I were going to try to convince you, here's what I would say. So I'm watching Agatha all along, which I actually personally didn't really have high hopes for for whatever reason. I just, actually, no, I know with a reason. People can go to Maximfund.org slash join and they can listen to our Marvel check and if they want to know the reason. Two words. Catherine Hahn. But Catherine Hahn is the reason to watch the show. She's an absolute delight. but also Arbery Plaza is an absolute delight.

Oh, yeah. And let me just say, they go ahead and have those characters canonically be ex-girlfriends on this show. Like, Marvel is just out here. They're just like, yeah, all right, we're just going to put queer content in this TV show that no one is going to watch. So they're doing that.

That's just sort of a first of all. But the second of all is, Agatha all along is a direct sequel to Wanda Vision. You don't need to have seen anything else besides WandaVision to understand it, which is a huge boon. and something they probably should have done years ago, if we're being honest with ourselves.

And also, the showrunner is Jack Schaefer, the showrunner from WandaVision. And I think she's really, really good at running a television show. And once again, she's setting up a mystery here where you're like, I don't really know what's going on yet with all these characters and what the situation is that they're in, which I won't explain all of, because I actually think it's really fun to see how things play out on this show.

And I just think she's a good showrunner. So for that reason, I think the show is actually pretty strong, and it's about gay witches. And the most recent episode that I watched as we're recording this, the characters have to play a rock song together in order to get out of a situation. And I was like, this is the most my shit that a TV show maybe ever has been to have queer witches, like, playing a really cool rock song together in order to get out of like an absurd magical curse that they're all under.

And Catherine Hahn has to sing leads and she kills it. And it's great. So like, it's funny, fun. and has like an interesting mystery where I'm like, I'm not sure what's going to happen with this show in that Jack Schaefery way. But also I know Wanda Vision ended with, you know, two characters shooting lasers at each other. And it was like the most boring possible MCU ending. So I am assuming Agatha All Along will also end with Catherine Hahn shooting lasers at somebody. And I'm going to be like, I don't know why I've recommended this show.

But I'm enjoying it for now. Or maybe they learned that lesson after Wondivision was kind of criticized for that. I don't know what to expect. I have no real big hopes for the finale, but I'm really enjoying myself so far. And if you liked Wanda Vision and you're like, I don't want to watch all this other MCU shit in order to watch the show, you don't need to. That's all you really need to have seen. You're fine. You can just go ahead and watch Agatha all along because it is literally, it kind of picks up from there in the same place with a lot of the same characters, except not Elizabeth Olson.

But everybody else, all your faves are back, at least in the pilot. It's funny that Elizabeth Olson is like still technically dead, I guess. She is, yeah. And in the pilot, they refer to that. I think she's just kind of over it. She's like, I don't want to make Marvel. Well, but it seemed like we didn't see a body. So everyone assumed she was like so alive, but I guess we'll see if they ever bring her back.

I mean, the pilot in a bag of all along kind of gets into this a little bit. But I could see her coming back. She's in that new movie with like Carrie Coon and someone. You mean Carrie Coon, Thanos's hench, hench woman, Carrie Coon? That's right. For brief and ignoble Marvel appearance. Oh, boy. I forgot about that.

Cool. And it's not done yet, right? No, it's not done. It's not done. It's not done. But I figured I would note this because I feel like people don't know that this show is just a WandaVision sequel. I don't think it's been marketed as such. And so I thought I might note that. It's been totally different.

Yeah. Aubrey Plaza is in it. Yeah. And she's in it. And she's very good. I mean, she's always hilarious. I think she's great. Kirk,

what's your one more thing? One more thing is a movie that Emily and I went and saw in the theater. About a week ago called Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice. Man, Michael Caten. Still at it. Is it really going all in? Still got it too, man.

He's like the best part of the movie. Yeah, this movie is kind of a hot mess but also pretty fun. I think that's a fairly common sentiment. So it's the first one. The first one, like people have nostalgia for it, but that movie was messy. Yes, though. I think the first one is a much stronger script. I think the first one is a much stronger movie.

The sequel definitely has some sequel issues in that they introduced just way too much. There's like four different plots going on. And there's a point where you're like, Wait a minute. Like, why are each of these plots happening? And then really, essentially in the last act, Beetlejuice shows up and is like, nah. And like just literally plunges all the plots into trash and lights them on fire.

And it's like, let's just end the movie. It's fine. And then you're like, okay, that was a little unsatisfying. Like, but fun. I had a good time. Okay. And that's kind of the movie. This movie is, of course, the sequel to Beetlejuice, what,

1987, 1989? Something like that. The late 80s, Tim Burton film. A classic. I recommend it. It's when, what's her name was, was very young. Yeah, Winona Ryder. Yeah, it was a breakout moment for a young Winona Ryder.

And Alec Baldwin's in it? Yeah, it's got, it's got a lot of great character actors. And the sequel does it as well. One of the best things, Jason, is that Justin Thoreau is in it. Ah. Of The Leftovers, the Star of the Leftover is playing a, did you watch The Leftovers, Maddie? I said Jason, but I can't remember if you'd watch that. Yeah.

I never finished it. I meant to. Okay. But it's really sad and I wasn't quite in the mood. But I know you got to just turn it. Great ending. You know we love it. It's one of the best shows ever.

But yeah, he's in it and he's wonderful. He's playing this like absolute piece of shit. Like he's really horrible. Like basically a manipulative, slimy guy who's like using sort of therapy speak and like openness to like take advantage of Lydia Dietz of Winona Ryder's character. So this movie picks up,

it's like, modern times, Lydia's grown up. She's kind of never really recovered from what happened with Beetlejuice and the ghosts and all of that. And her father dies, played by Infraiting the actor's name, but he's like a huge creep and was like totally like me-toed. And so they had to kind of remove him from the movie. One of the funniest things this movie does is like all of the different ways that they manage to have him be present because it's about his death without having the actor be in the movie. There's some really funny stuff that if anyone hasn't seen it, I won't spoil, but I enjoyed that a lot.

And it's just basically like Beetlejuice is back, like his ex-wife, played by Monica Balucci is like sucking people's souls. And then it's just sort of a big wacky group of people. They go back to the house. A lot of stuff happens. Beetlejuice tries to marry Lydia

again. And in the midst of all of that, Lydia's daughter, who is played by Jenna Ortega, is like also having her own adventure where she doesn't believe in ghosts, but then she gets sucked into the afterlife. And, you know, I don't know. It's like, so there's like all these different stories.

And by the two-thirds point, it's really just like, okay, they needed to just cut at least one of these out of the movie entirely and like, and center this around Winona Ryder and Jenna Ortega, who are great together. But like their storyline is given such short shrift and really like the climax up, like the idea of the alienated daughter, the mother who sees ghosts, the daughter who doesn't believe her, her father is dead. and Winona Ryder, Lydia Dietz can't see the ghost. I'm like, okay, this is good. Like, this has got juice. This is like a classic thing. You could do a great job telling this story, and they do not. It is like not well told, and that's unfortunate.

That said, my nieces were up here a little while ago, and we watched the first Beetlejuice because they, of course, being 14 and 11 are really into Jenna Ortega. Gena Rotega is very much like one of the actors of their generation. Yeah. So they were very excited about the sequel. like, well, you guys, we have to watch the first one. And we watched it. The first movie is such a delightful little movie.

Like, it's just this, it's so weird. Like, Beetlejuice is barely in it, which is one of the great things about it, is that they use him very sparingly. And I'd say they use him sparingly in the sequel as well. And Michael Keaton is a real highlight. But anyways, I don't know. I've got a bunch of like sort of stray thoughts about it. I love the production design.

They do a lot of practical effects. Apparently that was one of Keaton's, one of his things. He was like, we can only do it again if we like, it's not all. It's not all about me, and we have to do practical again. Great. And so, like, the afterlife is all these cool sets with just, like, purple lights and weird, like, false walls and optical illusions. And the monsters or the dead people are all cool, like, costumes, like, people walking around with shrunken heads or, like, you know, bit off, like, severed torsos and stuff. And it's, like, ghoulish in that same fun way.

There's a baby. Oh, man, the baby is great. The needle juice baby is really good. So it's, like, you know, it's fun. And I wouldn't be mad if they made Beetlejuice, Beetle Juice, Beetle Juice. It seems like they're kind of, they could do that or they might not. Well, you have to have to have. It seems like the logical conclusion to a trilogy that's built into, yeah, that's built

into the name. But then you wouldn't be able to say what movie you're going to see. That's right. Because then my people would show up. Well, that's his master plan. That's his been his plan all along is to get us all the same. Hey, where are you going? What are you going to see this weekend?

Oh, shit. I can't tell you. Oh, okay. No, no worry. I don't say it. Anyways, yeah, pretty fun movie, even though it's like screenplay is a mess, and it could have probably been better. It's nice to see Burton having fun. I hope that he keeps kind of in this vein, keeps making weird movies. It goes back to like his inspiration, Ed Wood, and like remembers what that was like before Disney gave him hundreds of millions of dollars,

and he could just make a weird miniature stop motion snake, and then that was like the coolest thing in the movie. So I hope that that's what this foretells. But yeah, pretty fun movie. My one more thing is a TV show called Lost that recently turned 20. Lost came out like around the same time that World of Warcraft came out. Fun little fact there. Fun little bit of like how old are you, how old are we now? Like how old are we frigging old. That feels wrong, but I guess it's true.

I always think and if you reread Sepinwall's chapter on Lost from his book from that Alan Seppinwall book, I wonder if there are some similarities to the first season of Lost and the launch of World of World Warcraft. I think there might be. I would be curious what you think. of that if you did. So, okay, so I've been like totally fried. I've been doing so many podcasts and like book tour stuff.

And I'm about to go on a two week trip, so it's, or eight day trip, so it's going to continue. So when I did have a little bit of spare time while playing metaphor in my Steam tank, I thought I would put it on like a comfort show that just hit Netflix a few months ago and I was like, let's just watch

some lost. So I've watched a couple episodes of Lost and we'll probably give it a whole rewatch because it's super fun and we'll probably try to convince you two to rewatch at least the first season to talk about it. First season is an all-timer. It's an all-timer. And you know what's really interesting about watching it today?

I mean, there's a lot we could talk about it. Maybe we'll get a chance to you on a bonus episode or something next year or something. But what really strikes me is how it really straddles the line between like TV tropes of the 90s and 80s and what we consider prestige TV today. Because this came out like right around the time with the Sopranos and the wire. and like we were about to start seeing some like the real era of before madman but yeah yeah just before madman right in there just before breaking bad a few years before breaking mad so it's like around that time when peak tv was just about getting started and what's really striking is that like it has so much of ptv like it has this just kind of um this sense of like depth to the characters like on one on one end

like sawyer for example is introduced being extremely racist to Saeed and then like an hour later you'll see him have this like warm moment where he like tries to do the right thing or like Said throws him an apple or something and like you can see these people having like these human connections and this depth that you didn't

see a lot on TV shows in the early days or like you'll see them go in dark directions where people will be screaming and dying and like they'll have to deal with the repercussions of that and of course there's all the twists and turns and mysteries and stuff just and the kind of ongoing

character development as opposed to like everything returning to where it is at the at the end of the show. But then at the same time, you'll see some of these tropes from earlier days like Jack and Kate having a meat cute and just like having that kind of typical like two hot sitcom leads. Just let's figure out a way to get Jack's shirt off so he and Kate can have a moment or like let's do like a music montage at the end of this episode where we go around and see where all the characters are at and check in on them and just kind of a lot of like more not necessarily bad but just more tropey things that I don't know if you would see today. It's networky right because it's an ABC show. It was a network show. It is very networking and like of course you have the beats that like you

feel unfamiliar today where it's like beats for TV. Right. Sorry beats for commercials and like your your A story, your B story, your C story and how they're all interwoven and they each follow like specific kind of beats and tropes and it is very networking and networking and networking. And networking. And networking. it's funny you say networking because like that doesn't even mean anything today. Like that's not even like my kids wouldn't understand the concept of networking because they just watch like whatever we want to watch. They just like, oh, let's put on bluey. Okay, put on bluey.

They wouldn't understand that like some shows would only be on at a certain time or aren't available yet. Like that doesn't like cross the mind of a lot of people who watch TV these days. And so I really think loss was just this turning point for TV. And it's really interesting just to see that boundary and like where. it's at. And I know there's a lot to complain about when it comes to Lost and how it like made things up as it went along and therefore threw out a lot of dangling threads along the way. And it was very frustrating at the time, especially that final season watching that live was very frustrating.

But I am ready to appreciate it in a new way, especially the first couple of seasons, because I think there's just so much good stuff in there that I'm very tempted to just like rewatch the whole thing. it's just fun it's fun to see especially in that first season when they're like it's less about the crazy mysteries and the others and the crazy hostile factions and stuff like that and more about

just the moment to moment experience of survival like and like getting to know the characters yeah character drama getting to know the characters but also but so much of getting to know the characters is like how are we going to eat um are we going to find a way what are we going to do with all these dead bodies in the airplane fuselage of the

the plane that crashed. What are we going to do with the guns that we've found? Or like this one gun that we have. How are we going to hunt for a bore? Like it's a lot of really interesting just kind of survival like what's the comparison, like Tom Sawyer's stuff or like Lord of the Fly stuff where it's like. Or hatchet compared to like. Yeah, later seasons it's like, are we in the afterlife?

What is time? Have we fallen into a black hole? Compared to the island is skipping. through time and we are jumping around in time. How many versions of me are there? The numbers. Some of that stuff was real good. But yes, at the beginning, it's very,

the numbers are there from the very beginning. The numbers are there from the very beginning. I don't hate the ending of Lost. I hate the third season of Lost, but I don't hate the ending. At least at the beginning, they're like a cool mystery in the background as opposed to just like the entire point. I know what you mean, Jason. Well, Jack is like sitting in Isle 23.

They're like hinted throughout from the very beginning. Yeah. So yeah, Lost is a cool show. Hopefully the three of us can talk more. about it. Hopefully I can convince you to watch it. It would be fun. It would be fun. I have a lot of love for that first season and the second season. It's really just after that that I start. The second

season has a couple of downpoints from what I remember. And the third season, I mean, it's all good. It's just that like there's some bad stuff. Third season sucks. No, well, the third season has good moments too. The third season has like some of the best. I didn't say it is absolutely unsalvageable. But the third season was where I

stopped watching. The end of the, did you never watch the fourth, fifth? No, no. I should say I stopped watching and then I came back in watched all the rest of it. The end of season three might be the best moment of loss ever, which I mean, I won't spoil the twist

in case people haven't watched it. But like third season of loss, that ending, all time TV moment, I will never forget where I was when I watched that live. Anyway, and by the way,

lost, if we ever talk about it, the experience, at least for me, of watching it live, was so huge. It was like classic water cooler talk.

Yeah, I don't think there will ever be anything like that again. And maybe we can talk about that one. And other than like, I guess Game of Thrones, but it was like before that era. But with Game of Thrones, there wasn't the same mystery.

I think that Yellow Jackets made us feel that way, the first season of that show. Yeah, yellow jackets did. Yeah, but then it didn't, it didn't hold. I know, I know. But the first season of that show had that same feeling. We talked about that back on the beans. You're right. You're right.

Anyway, all right. That is it for this week's episode. Kirk, Mani. See you both next time. Yeah. See you next time. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton.

I edit and Mix the show and also wrote our theme music, Our show art is by Tom D.J. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at Maximumfund.org. Find us on Twitter at Triple ClickPod. Send email the triple click at Maximum Fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes.

Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximum Fun. worker-owned network of artist-owned shows. Supported directly by you.