Triple Click - Undertale Vs. NFL Quarterback Josh Allen

Episode Date: April 29, 2021

Which is more recognizable: the video game Undertale or NFL quarterback Josh Allen? This week, Maddy, Jason, and Kirk open up the mailbag and answer your questions on all sorts of things, including video game addiction, ethics in AAA game development, and rejected names for the Triple Click podcast.One More Thing:Kirk: Shadow and Bone by Leigh BardugoMaddy: This Is A RobberyJason: Turnip Boy Commits Tax EvasionLinks:Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/tripleclickpodSupport Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

This week of the Academy Awards, Triple Click won an Oscar. Yeah, we can get away of saying that because nobody actually watched it. Welcome to Triple Click where we bring the games to you. This week, we are opening up the mailbag and taking some of your questions about all sorts of things from addiction to ethics in AAA video games. I'm Jason Trier. I'm Kirk Hamilton. And I'm Maddie Myers. Hello.

Hello. Hello. Hello, there. for another episode. It is us. It is the triple click gang. The triple click crew. That's what they call us.

That is. That is. We have many names. The triple click posse. The triple click gang. We do have many names. We are known throughout the West as the fastest podcasters in the West. Believe the legends that you hear about triple click.

They're all true. All of it. Billy Kid and the triple click gang. Yeah, we got rid of that guy, though. We did. Now it's just the three of us. Welcome back to another episode. There is lots to get through.

We have an exciting episode for you all today. But first, we should talk about a couple of cool things. Number one, Triple Click is entirely listener supported, and we are very appreciative to all of you listeners out there who help make this show happen. If you are interested in helping being a part of the magic that helps Triple Click pod its podcast, then you too can become a subscriber,

a member of Maximum Fun by going to MaximumFund.org slash join. You get some cool stuff including monthly bonus episodes from the triple click gang, triple click crew, including our next monthly bonus episode, which will go up next week, which is about the MCU. We are talking about some Marvel. It will be up on Monday. What's Monday?

May 3rd. And you can listen to us, talk about Falcon and Captain Falcon. and... Yeah, Captain Falcon, Wario, Princess Zelda. It's Captain Falcon and the ice climbers, right? That's the name of the show. And as it happens to, May 3rd,

that's kind of an interesting date, isn't it? That day that's almost like it's the first day of something. What might it be, Jason? Yeah, coincidentally, that is... It is also the beginning of maximum fun drive, which is a really cool event, which is like our pledge drive for the whole network. You become a maximum member,

and you can get some cool stuff, or you can upgrade your pledge and get some cool stuff. Although one thing I will say is if you're planning on subscribing, becoming a member in the $10 or above category, just wait until next week because then you'll get your prize for it. But if you want to join and get the bonus episodes, you can do that any all time at $5.

Any time of the year, you can always get that. Yeah, that's true. You can do it any time. The one thing we can announce right now, or we announce, but one thing we can remind everyone is that we'll be doing a live episode next Tuesday night at 630 on our Twitch channel, which is triple click pod it'll be linked in the in the show notes

630 Eastern Jason because not everybody is on the east coast of the US yes and that's available to everyone not just members so everyone can tune in and check it out and then we're going to be publishing that episode as our episode for next week so you'll get to listen to it a couple days early all right let's get to the show shall we this week we are opening up the listener mailbag and taking your burning question

yeah whatever happened to that didn't you say you were going to make sound effect at some point. I used the fireball sound effect once, but that's like a real sound effect that you're supposed to license. Like, I'm not going to use that every time. We can pay for it, I guess. It's not that expensive. We don't want to get in trouble with the fireball headquarters. Yeah, I don't want to get them on our backs. You never know. I mean, if there's one headquarters, you would not want to piss off.

It's the fireball headquarters. That's a good point. Yeah, it's weird how many copyrights they have. Anyway, I got this takedown notice, and it smells faintly of, of sulfur. Who could it be from? What do you think that happened in Final Fantasy 6 where you have to go through that house? That was because they pissed off the fireball company.

Yes, the fireball department. Anyway, this week we're doing a burning question. We've got a few questions to get through. As a reminder, you can always reach us at triple click at maximum fun.org with your own questions, thoughts, feedback, etc., etc. Kirk, take us away.

Read the first question for it. All right. The first burning question comes from Wes. Wes writes, Hi, Maddie, Kirk, and Jason. I love the podcast as well as your individual work, and congrats on the one-year cast-aversary. Thanks, Wes. I especially enjoy the new podcast feel combined with the years of experience you all have hosting together. We'll never get rid of that.

We'll always feel like a new podcast. It's true. It's so true. New podcast smell. I love it. It's still there. That was really just included so that we can all feel good about ourselves. Here's Wes's question.

He writes, triple click is an excellent title, but I bet there is a shared Google Doc with a treasure trove of rejected titles. I would love to hear some of the names that didn't make the cut. I totally understand if you want to keep some of the better ones in your back pocket, but I'm mostly interested in hearing the truly terrible names. Oh, yeah. So as it happens, yes, there is a Google Doc, and I'm... It's literally a Google Doc.

Looking at it right now. So why don't we share a few of these? Yeah, so, okay, so we should go through the finalists first. You want to talk about the finalists? Sure. The ones we considered good at one point in our lives? Yeah. Are they good?

So triple click is in bold. Glitchpod is another one we strongly considered. It's got a nice rhythm to it. Glitch pod. It's got a nice rhythm to it. I like to escape key. It's a little awkward to say, I think, escape key. I think that was why we rejected it was because it's hard to say escape key.

Yeah. Splitting pixels. Also one that's a little hard to say. Yeah. And that was a finalist and is actually the name of the company that we have together. So we kept that one just not for our podcast. We have a separate, you know, the company that we use is to do the business of triple click is called splitting pixels. That's right.

The overlay. I'm not a big fan of that one. Yeah, I don't even really remember that being in contention. Are you sure that somebody did. Right. Speaking and add things to this? Okay. I feel like it was a Kirk one.

The Overlay. I probably came up with it. By the way, Kirk gets the credit for Triple Click. Kirk came up with triple click. It's true. It's true. Some other names. Hidden Exit, Hidden Door, Secret Door.

Those were some I was playing around. with for a while. Split pixels, which is kind of a variation on splitting pixels. I like that one. It has the same kind of triple-click split pixels.

When it comes to the naming things, I'm kind of all about rhythm. I think that that's a very important thing. Yeah, singing that loud. It's kind of the challenge with, like, hidden exit is a cool combination of words and a cool concept, but just as a like automata poetic

or like percussive sound, hidden exit is just a little bit soft where triple click or split pixels. Split pixels is actually maybe a little too spitty. Split is kind of a little spitty. The split is a really fun word. I remember that I would suggest that for headlines. When people, you know, it would be like so-and-so split over this decision or something?

Like split is a good punchy word. I think for a name, I think having the two, if you're going to do two words and three total syllables, I think having the two-syllable word first is stronger than having the two-syllable word second. Because you have the stronger landing point. like you have a good emphasis at the ending. It's like how the conclusion is actually, well, the second, maybe the most important part of an article.

Is that true? Am I just talking about my answer? Yeah, yeah, it's the part nobody reads according to metrics. All right. Yeah, you always want to put the most forceful, the strongest words towards the end of the sentence and you want to rearrange your sentence to have a certain... Yeah, I remember whenever I would write a review or something

and I would really come up with like a fairly good conclusion that I really felt like it just landed it and like brought people home. I feel like if you do get to the conclusion and then you read that, you're like, that was a good article I read, even if there was like the article was maybe kind of dodgy. Like the conclusion just leaves you kind of thinking that. So it's the same concept, but for names, that makes sense. I want to read a few bad ones. At some point we were just, I mean, some of this list is just like, word like vomiting, just ideas. You know, when you just like, sometimes what I do for names is I'll just open up a notepad and just like type whatever comes to mine immediately.

So secret character, secret unlocked, guest character, cover system, train-based. Welcome to guest character, a podcast about video games. None of us are part of the cast of this show. We're all guest characters. Combat rhythm, pixel pod, charging station, glitch door, red key, escape hatch, screen tear, stop restart, save scum. A lot of this is just like eventually part of the idea is to like write down so many terms that like maybe something will inspire something else.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. We did not think that all of these were gems. We did not think that save scum was like, great name for a video game podcast. Though there probably is a video game podcast out there called Savescom and if that's you, no offense. I'm sure your podcast is great. The Point in the Click, did you write that Kirkland? I think I did.

That's a kind of a Kirkie kind of a name. The Point in the Glick is kind of sweet. That's going to be my next album. Depad Dreamers? Deepad Dreamers. These are just like about gigapults, wire across. Glitch rhythm is one that just. Click sticks.

Oh my God. Click sticks. That's got a good rhythm. Click sticks. Okay, hot cache. Prime pixels. Hot cash. That was a yanking. But it's spelled C-A-C-H-E.

I feel like that is terrible for an audio format because it just sounds like hot cash. Right. Welcome to the hot cash. It's not a podcast about cash. Welcome to the cash money podcast. No, why isn't it cash money, but, you know, spelled the other way? Prime pixels. Like sticks.

The code? The code sounds like, I don't know. The code sounds like a pickup artist show or something. Like it sounds like the game or like the lead guitarist in a YouTube cover band Cracking the code Yeah Yeah so I was looking through my email and I found before we even started this document We were in G chat just like actually the week that Deadspin was killed was pretty much when we decided hey we're gonna go do our own thing

Interesting I wonder why that was the week just a total coincidence And so it's us brainstering just a bunch of names Okay cool let's get to the next question Maddie give us this one This one is from Mark who writes, Hi, Jason, Maddie, and Kirk. My friends and I were talking about very influential slash important games and how many people around the world,

gamer or not, would know these by name, regardless if the people in question had only seen the game before, heard about it, or actually played it. We talked about Undertale, a game that's huge, but certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but has gone on to sell millions, exist on every platform, and have one of its characters, Sons, be arguably one of the most iconic video game,

characters ever. Despite this, one of us believed few people would actually know what Undertale is if asked. This chat went from 1 to 100 very quickly. It reached a point where we compared the bubble of games culture to something like sports culture. And if more people would know about someone like Josh Allen, the quarterback for the Buffalo Bills, it's a question I feel is pretty easy to answer. But it makes me wonder just how big something like Undertale is to people outside of games. If we were to do a survey in a random mall in any metropolitan city in the USA, would more people recognize something like Undertale or Josh Allen? How does something as deep rooted into games as Undertale break its way into the minds of the mass population? And where does it

compare to what might seem a more mainstream culture? So this is such a good question. First of all, have either of you heard of Josh Allen? Like, do you know, is that a player you don't know? Me neither. I mean, I know he's the quarterback for the Buffalo Bills because Mark helpfully told us that. Yeah, I just heard that. Yeah, I just heard that from somebody. This is a perfect. comparison because Undertail is like not a game that your average person would have heard of and Josh Allen is not a quarterback who your average non-sports fan would have heard of. So I pulled up some numbers that'll help us have a frame of reference here. So Undertale there aren't as far as I can tell any super updated sales for the game but by July 2018 according to Wikipedia the game had an

estimated total three and a half million players on scheme three and a half million. The recent, the most recent January 2021, a Buffalo Bills game on a Saturday night against the Ravens, I believe it was a playoff game, had an average of 21 million viewers. So 21 million versus three and a half million sales. Let's say that maybe, I don't know, how many more people do you think know what Undertale is that didn't buy it? Maybe 10 times as many, maybe like 30 million people know what Undertale is? Is that a fair guess?

I don't know. It's hard to tell. We're making up numbers, so. Yeah, sure. Probably a lot more than 21 million viewers know who Josh Allen of the Buffalo bills is, but nobody outside of it. You started with like a really clear comparison and now we're in the realm of imaginary numbers, so I'm not sure where you're going, Jason.

I love it. Stick the landing. You got this. The reason that this is really difficult also is because outside of the U.S., nobody would know who Josh Allen is, except like you're rare football fan in Europe or something. but they would probably, like a lot of gamers would probably know what undertow it. So I don't know. What do you guys think?

Do you guys think that, who do you guys think would be more recognized as well to your average? Go ahead, Maddie. I have thoughts. I mean, of this direct comparison, I don't think I can do a better analysis than you just attempted to do, Jason. But to answer the more general question, I say, I think anecdotally it has a lot to do with advertising and where games are advertised. And that means people have heard of Call of Duty and World of Warcraft and games that

got a lot of ads in certain time periods of their lives and they just still associate those games with gaming. I mean, that's just what I've always heard. Whereas Undertale, it's not advertised in ad breaks on Hulu or whatever. At least I've never seen an ad break like that, whereas I have seen outbreaks for Call of Duty. So that's part of what I think causes that omnipresence is... No, but yeah, but I mean, do you think Undertail? Yeah, I mean, I think if you That's the average person, Call of Duty versus Josh Holland, Caller Judy would win in a landslide. But like, Undertale versus random game versus random NFL quarterback. That's why it's a useful like comparison with these two specifically.

I mean, I guess, but it's like, well, have you heard of games or have you heard of quarterbacks? Right. That's an interesting question. Well, but what's on top of that is that like the NFL has such a cultural ubiquity that maybe games don't have or because, because Josh Allen is not the most famous quarterback. Like if you asked this about Tom Brady, it would be an obvious answer. Everyone knows who Tom Brady is.

He's the call of duty of quarterbacks. Exactly. It's because he has such a good advertising budget. Go on. There's also just like that the NFL is maybe a little bit, like undertale to an NFL game is maybe a little, like you could compare it to a college quarterback maybe a little bit more. Like there's other than out of factory.

Just because like Call of Duty is more the NFL level of video games, though Undertale is well known. I think there's also, I've been thinking about like other games that are very well known in just the world that are outside of the super advertised games like, you know, Call of Duty or any of those super huge published franchises. I was thinking Minecraft, but now Minecraft is kind of advertised by Microsoft. Well, like Roblox. But yeah, Roblox or even Undertale. I think there's also a lot of kids that know Undertale. A thing that I've found just totally anecdotally through people that I've talked to who are parents.

they'll be like, oh, Undertale. It was back when I recorded a cover of Undertail. I was like, oh, I just did a cover of this game Undertale. I'm like, oh, my kid talks about that all the time. And I don't know what it is, but I see it on the screen and I see the characters and my kids talk about it. And I think that is one way that some, like, less, you know, Call of Duty style, like huge mega franchise games get out into the popular consciousness is that people's kids play them. And kids get really into actually games that aren't always Call of Duty. Like, they will get into Undertale.

And then, you know, their parents will just say. the kids playing it or listening to the music. And then the parents will have heard of it. Yeah. Right. So the wild card here, I think, is fantasy football, which is played by millions and millions and millions of people and has taught those people, like the names of players in a way that they might not have because most people are

probably watching just their local teams every Sunday or whatever. Like if you're in Arizona, you might just be watching the Cardinals and not really care who's on the bills, who the quarterback for the bills is. But if you play fantasy football, which many, many people do, then you would actually know, who the quarterbacks are. So fundamentally, I think, like, ultimately, I think the answer to this question is if you went to a U.S. mall and got a random sampling of the population

and asked them this question, more would know Josh Allen than Undertale, I think. I mean, nobody's going to be at the mall right now, or like a lot of people are. Like, maybe right now isn't the time, but yes, I see what you're saying. If you just take a random sampling, not at the mall, but just some other way.

Random on the street, maybe on the street. Yeah, yeah. In a lineup for a vaccine. Right. But if you did this in, like, Europe, or Japan, then maybe the answer would be Undertale. Because I feel like more fewer people, like I don't know how many people in Japan know the Buffalo Bills quarterback versus like Undertale, which was a fairly popular game there

and had like a big Japanese release and stuff. So that's what I think the answer is. That's my guess. Yeah. And the sort of just to that question, how does something as deep rooted in games as Undertail break its way into the, just to the masses? Like how does a game like Undertale break through? is kind of an interesting question.

I mean, Maddie, you mentioned advertising, and I think that's very true. Like, for those huge franchises, that's definitely why everybody knows Call of Duty is because there's these big Call of Duty ads with famous people in them. But it is kind of like, how did Minecraft break through back

when it wasn't owned by Microsoft? Because it did, like everyone knew the game. Well, so it can never happen for something like Undertale because Undertale is in a game that you can keep talking about. Undertail isn't a game that you could have, like, a podcast that is like,

what's happening in Undertail this week. Essentially, it's not a game as a service. Minecraft is a game as a service, and it's a game that's like online, constantly being updated, constantly like you're coming up with new things in it. And so we can be talked about to the point where it hits that cultural consciousness.

Yeah, it's not just that it's not a game as a service. It's also that Minecraft lets you make things. Like before it was kind of treated as a game as a service, it was a creative game. But the point that is part, that's what makes it a game as a service. A game as a service is, by definition, a game of a service is a game

that can be continually played, like indefinitely played because it is constantly like getting new things changing Minecraft from the beginning. Like entered, was started off in beta and was constantly being patched. All right, but I'm saying that like the creative element of Minecraft was the thing that made it perpetually interesting, not necessarily the fact that it was being updated. Yeah, yeah, but I think the fact that it's updated

keeps it in the cultural consciousness. And that's what's important for like breaking into the cultural, breaking into the zeitgeist is like being a game that's constantly being talked about. Like, imagine a podcast that could be dedicated just to that game. It would be hard to have an undertale podcast unless you're, like, talking about new fan art every week or something like that. But it would not be hard to have a Call of Duty podcast because there's new stuff constantly.

It would not be hard to have a Minecraft podcast. Like, that's the way that I think about it, World Warcraft podcast. It would not be hard to. And those kind of align with the games that penetrate the cultural consciousness. I guess there are a few exceptions. Do you feel like the NFL is also a service game, Jason? I do. It is constantly changing.

I mean, you guys know that you guys might not even know this, that for next year, the NFL is doing a 17 game season from now on instead of 16 games. Used to be 16 games this season. Now it's 70 games. Okay, let's get on to the next session. I will read this one. This is from Max. Max says games like Genshin Impact and certain mobile games seem prone to gambling like addictions, as these games encourage gambling behaviors with real money to get rewards or progress the game without any spending limits.

Additionally, games like we're holding. of Warcraft may not create the same financial burdens, but can be so time-consuming to some gamers that they cease engaging with their normal responsibilities and cause harm to themselves. What do you think about video games whose design may encourage addiction, intentionally or otherwise? How should the gaming community react to it? What should be the responsibility of journalists who review or advertisers who promote these more addictive games? I'm personally conflicted.

I acknowledge how we all take personal responsibility for the risks in gaming and that a vast majority of people will be fine. However, as a therapist, I've also worked with a minority of people who have experienced actual harm from their addictive gaming. I've wondered what our collective gaming community responsibility should be to help protect more vulnerable or addiction-prone gamers. Interesting question. Yeah, it's a tough one. Yeah, I have like conflicted feelings about even talking about Genshin impact. It's kind of why I never wanted to play it because of this whole gotcha aspect and the idea that... wanting whales. But you have both played destiny. So you have experienced this sort of world of

work-up comparison of like participating in an ecosystem of a game that there are actually real money interactions in destiny as well. Destiny 2. But that isn't necessarily something that three of us have really talked about that much. But it is a part of it. I mean. So, well, so two, I think it's two different things. What you talk, what you just mentioned first that it's like a time suck game. That's a different form of addiction than the money thing. The money thing. The money is what worries me personally a lot more than the time-suck thing. With Destiny, there's very, like, there's not a ton. I mean, if you're really into cosmetics, you can spend a bunch of money.

But it's not like they're chasing whales who will spend thousands of dollars the way that gotcha games really are. Like, gotcha games are genuinely predatory. Destiny is not. World of Warcraft is not. But Destiny and World of Arcraft are time addiction. Like, that's a different thing. Money addiction versus time addiction.

So, yeah, this is something we talked about recently with regards to loop hero. I was sort of at the time talking about being pulled into, a game like a god of war or like some story-based game where there's still progression and I'm like really into it and I feel like just kind of sucked in and then differentiating that from a game like Destiny, a game that's

designed to have all of these like super you know grabby systems that like really like trick my brain into wanting to play like there's kind of a difference but Maddie at the time you pointed out you were like it's a spectrum like these games are all on the same spectrum and no matter

how far you get away from like the really pure gotcha game, like, you know, every level you just get random rewards that give you like random roles on these repeating characters and you're always trying to get the five-star ones so you can have the best one. Like the most kind of gross and obviously exploited version of that, all the way down to the game that just has some element of randomness or even just a game where you level up and like you have to level up a certain amount before you can see the next chapter. It's all on the same spectrum. And I think that that's true, which kind of brings me to the uncomfortable conclusion that like all video games have this are unethical

baked into them. No, not unethical. Like that all video games have this baked into them. Like there's just some element. When you're designing something that people are going to play in a like artificial environment maybe that's sort of pulling them forward and that's designed and sort of scaffolded in a way that the more they play, the better they get and they level up. Like you're always playing with that part of people's brains, right? I think you are. But again, but I think we're talking about two different parts of people's brains. There's the part that is like, we want to give you enough dopamine with every single click or every single button press that you keep playing and you don't stop playing. And then there's a part of people's brains that is like, we want that dopamine to lead to you having to spend money as a result of that.

And I feel like doing the former is something that a game like Destiny does all the time that all games do like you said, but not all games like try to convert that dopamine into money. Well, I mean, like, I don't know. You keep giving Destiny a pass, but, like, you saw the way that they just announced these, like, transmog systems where you can grind a whole bunch and level up and make your character look cool, or you can just pay for the same things and not have to do the grinding. Like, there's still, like, a financial incentive in Destiny. There's probably Destiny Wales. Like, I don't think there are, there are definitely people who, like, spend a whole ton on micro transactions in that game, too. Yeah. Sure.

I mean, I think there's more of a more, you're not encouraged to spend as part of what the game actually is. because it feels like its own ecosystem. Yeah, there's a distinction. Even TransMog. It's all cosmetic. But it's all on the same spectrum. It's all on a spectrum. Like, even Destiny and Gotcha games are on a spectrum.

They're just, I see the differences you're talking about, but they are on the same spectrum. I also think that the time-based games are still taking your money. Like any subscription-based game is taking your money, whether you're playing it or not, obviously. That's how World of Warcraft works. And it's also part of why they try to keep you hooked. But also, to circle back to Kirk's earlier point,

I think that there is a spectrum as well in the way that randomness works in games and even the games that we don't think of as being quote unquote as bad as gotcha games. Like a lot of games have randomized weapon drops or loot drops, for example, that feel very exciting and like suddenly getting a really cool gun in borderlands or whatever feels really good. And then the next step is games that include just the option to roll or re-roll for certain kinds of weapon drops. And then maybe you like pay a little bit of money to get to re-roll. all those things and then you start getting into the gotcha game territory. But the way that friends of mine who play gotcha games talk about them, I mean, this is part of why I try to be careful about this, is because I do know people who play them responsibly enough and have fun just with that experience of randomness and like only spend a little money and just genuinely have fun with basically a slot machine

experience. And they're fine and don't like it when people talk about gotcha games as being inherently evil or unethical because they're having a good experience with the game. But then there is that minority of people who are whales, who are, you know, prone to falling into a compulsive habit and spending money that they don't have. And that can happen in like actual casinos and there are whales there too. Like gambling is a real compulsion. So I don't know. I don't know if the issue is the games or just the fact that we don't think about them as being the same as other forms of compulsion that are treated. Like we do think of gambling addiction as a thing and gaming addiction as kind of being a thing,

but it's, I think it would be better if we didn't think it was something that happened to everyone. And instead we were just like, it can happen to some people sometimes. And those people should get help, but it doesn't have to be pathologized constantly. I think the biggest difference is what you're saying is that like, we don't talk about slot machines as game of the year candidates and talk about how cool they are. and are pretty they are. Like, like, the way that people talk about Genshin Impact, and I should say, I should preface this by saying I haven't actually played that game,

but or just Gacha games in general. I don't want to pick on just one. But like the way people talk about gotcha games sometimes makes me uncomfortable because they're talked about as if they're normal games, but they're very much games that are trying to push people to spend money in a way that your, your normal game is not. And I did a little bit of research on this a few years back where I was talking to some people who were like actual whales. and have spent thousands of dollars on these games and have kind of succumbed to that and have seen it up in their lives in some really horrible ways. And it's really just like it's not something that is explored enough when we talk about

these games. It's not something that is regulated by the government the way the casinos are, the way the gambling is. It's not something that really is treated on the same level as gambling. Like we treat Genshin Impact and by we, I mean the collective culture of gaming. We treat Genshin Impact as if it's a. another game like oh look at that cute looking breath of the wild type game but that can be really dangerous for a lot of people. I mean we do and we don't. I feel like a lot of people talked about

this issue with Genschen when it came out because like in addition to having Gacha elements it also has story elements and it has just enough story elements that more people were getting into it who don't normally play Gacha games and then were surprised and sucked in by it and were reacting to it in a way that they wouldn't with like some other classic Gacha game that doesn't have a breath of the wild-like story and characters you like and all those other aspects. So that's part of why Genschen is an interesting example here, because it's like, well, how much is too much? And, you know, then you get into stuff like Overwatch loot boxes and like different kinds of loopboxes and games and like, should they not be there? They're also sustaining developers,

as I'm sure you know, Jason, like there are many developers who don't necessarily want to include these things in their games, but feel like they have to for financial reasons. And I don't know, maybe the problem's capitalism. That's how I end the lot of box these days. Yeah, I mean, again, I just, I just see a pretty fine difference, pretty concrete difference, actually, between an Overwatch that has loop boxes, which are pretty horrible. Does it even have, I feel like they removed paid lip boxes from a lot of games because they were worried about all that regulation a couple of years back.

Yeah. But even a game that pushes you, I don't know, a free to play game, like League of Legends, like there's a cap on what you can spend in League of Legends. You could buy X number of characters. You can spend Y amount of money and that's it. And it just feels very different. It feels like monetization of games feels different often in some of these big publisher games than it does in like, I don't know, a FIFA ultimate team or a Simpsons tapped out. That's a good example and that you're constantly paying to speed things up or to like get rid of your timers and your mobile games.

Like those games just feel designed to be predatory in a way that a game that is like has a lot. a fun loop and also lets you spend money on cosmetic gear. It just doesn't have the same feel. It's like, it's the spectrum of the spectrum of grossness. There's one end and the gotcha stuff is on one hand and maybe Overwatch and other games like that are in the middle versus the single player only, no microtransactions at all. Yeah. To look at the second part of Max's question, though, like that's all true. And it's a vast constellation of different kinds of games. And I think you can spend, we could spend an hour like parsing the differences between each one. But to look at the second part of his question about games that aren't even trying to get money out of you,

there's still, that's still there. And it is still something that I don't know how to talk about always and like don't think anyone really does. And because it's like it is a thing that is that is very clear to me when I'm, you know, when I'm playing a game, which isn't all the time now. Like sometimes I'm just sort of bouncing between things or just doing other stuff. And then it's like we talked about last week, like not. being a professional games journalist or anything. They're just totally times where I'm not playing a game.

And it makes me really aware of how I feel when I am, which recently Subnautica and Monster Hunter Rise are two games that I like really, really played. And they both in different ways, like have these systems that really pull me in and got me like really in the groove with Monster Hunter Rise. They're both crafting, actually. In Monster Hunter Rise, it's this like RNG-based crafting and it's nicely spread across different types of RNGs so like you can actively pursue stuff for your armor. But then decorations are kind of harder to get.

And then your talism are pure RNG. But it's all these systems that are like different amounts of randomness that make you feel that kind of constant little rush of excite movement. Oh, I finally can make that new decoration to slightly get a better skill. So the next time that I fight, it'll be easier for when the next DLC hits. But none of it's making me spend money. It's all just like the game encouraging me to play it. And that is also, I don't want to say it's a problem.

Like I said, it's hard to talk about. But it's a thing that I'm very aware of when I'm playing it is that I'm like sucked in, spending a lot of time playing it. And it's, I don't know that that's always good. Like, I think that this great power that games have, and I don't think most of them wield it responsibly, or at least with like the sort of consciousness that they're doing it. It just seems like they're kind of doing it because, oh, yeah, well, this is the way we get people to play a bunch of our game. And now all games are kind of designed this way on a kind of fundamental level. And that makes me feel a lot of different conflicting ways. Yeah. Yeah. And we use, I'm certainly

guilty of this, using addictive as kind of a positive quality. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that was what the question last time was about. It was like people talk about addictive as a positive thing. I think often about civilization in those games because those games do the same sort of dopamine hits, series of little mini dopamine hits, but they're never ending. And like when a Xiv game ends, you just start a new one. And it's not like there's an end point to civilization the way there is in Monster Hunter

Rise or like any other game that has a finite amount of content. I mean, there isn't really in Monster Hunter. rise though like it's you keep playing it forever and they're about to they just update it today. Well eventually you kill all the monsters no. No you got it you can just keep going you start a new weapon you can play like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. All right put not the point point being that like I think of it often when it comes to civilization and games like that because those games are like fascinating and cerebral and like really good but they also have that quality of that like could really take advantage of vulnerable people and have I mean people used to call everQuest back in

the day ever crack and it was like it was not a positive thing like it was really i mean world of warcraft ruined people's lives there's stories of like people um dying in like korean uh cafes and their bangs sure we know the horror stories but i i don't know i i feel like at least speaking for myself i'm more likely to fall into those patterns if i'm already depressed i mean i don't know if that's true for everyone i'm not a medical professional but the times in my life when I've gotten really sucked into a game in a way that's unhealthy are usually because I'm already not doing very well. So like, yeah, I'm a vulnerable person in that case, like Jason said, and that is a concern. But it's also like, well, there's probably also something else going on.

It's not to say I don't think that games are responsible in some way for capitalizing on these human impulses, but I guess I'm just, it's not, I don't know. I don't know why I'm defending video games here. I don't know where I'm going with this. But that's the thing. I mean, video game. Because there's a defense. Like there's a, it's, that's why it's, it's complicated. Like there's not, it's like, also human beings are doing the game thing. Like, you know, humans are making these games and then also they're playing them.

And it's not just like, we're making the decision to do that. We're being controlled by these machines and we can't help ourselves. It's like, yeah, there's, there's more to it than that. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, no. I understand why Max is conflicted is my conclusion. We all are, Max. We're right there with you, buddy.

Should we take one more question? and then say goodbye. Sure. Sure. Kirk, give it to us. All right, this comes from Anders, who writes, is there any such thing as a AAA company where shit is good for the employees? I used to think that Ubisoft were the only ones where things seem to be working great regarding crunch,

abuse of power and other matters. The Guillemonts, however, proved me wrong. What AAA studios would you recommend for a gamer aspiring to be ethical and where I'm throwing my money? The first ones that come to minor Nintendo and Valve in the early days of Steam, but I'm not sure what to think anymore. Jason, I feel like this is one that you can probably, answer well so you could at least. Yeah, this is easy, right? The answer is no. The answer is no. No, I don't know. I mean, people asking this a fair amount and I used to try to answer it.

But like, even when I hear from people like, oh, my company is great to work, there still might be, I mean, Ubisoft is a perfect example because I had heard from a lot of people like, Ubisoft is amazing to work at. And then all the stuff came out last summer and it was like, holy crap. Like I had not even gotten wind of a lot of that stuff. So, yeah, it's difficult. to say. I mean, I think fundamentally it's like there is no such thing as being ethical when it comes to supporting AAA gaming. And so you just kind of have to decide like, okay, this is, this is what I'm going to do. There was probably crunched behind this game. There was probably QA people treated like shit to make this game. There are executives on top of this game who are raking in millions of

dollars and bonuses, but that's capitalism for you. And there's nothing I can do. So I might as try to enjoy this game, um, despite knowing that they're, horrible conditions that made it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really have an answer because, like, you could say Nintendo and Nintendo might seem lovely and family friendly, but like we've heard horror stories from Japan and Japanese workers are less likely to speak out. So who knows what's going on at Japanese companies. So I don't know. Yeah. It's interesting that Andrews chose Nintendo and Valve, which are the two companies that are sort of stereotyped as black boxes where their company culture is unknown, at least in the early days of steam.

That's a very good point. That Anders is citing here. I think at this point, there are more stories about overwork at Valve or people having left because they were unhappy there. But in the early days, not so much. And that's part of why those companies have or had good associations, because we didn't know about them. And same goes for Ubisoft. We just didn't know about them. So it's like, well, maybe the trick is ignorance is bliss, I guess.

And you can just assume that a AAA studio is great until you hear otherwise. Just don't listen to gaming news. Yeah, don't pay any attention to gaming news. I think it's more just, this is how I feel about boycotting all companies in general. It's like if something personally bothers you, you should boycott it, but there's no possible way that you could create some type of comprehensive directory of which companies you should and shouldn't boycott because they're going to be terrible people working at all of them, no matter what you do.

And that's society. So like you'll go nuts if you try. I used to figure out which companies I should boycott and then move to. on with my life. So I wish Andrew's luck in that quest. Well, it's not, but it's not just the terrible people. It's their terrible systems at all. And that's what really bums me out? And I think that people ask all the time, what should I do as a gamer who wants to support ethical practices? And I think the answer is the only real answer that I can think of is just to keep speaking out about it and like make sure that companies don't get a chance to just like continue operating in the shadows the way that

they have been. And I think one thing that has been kind of heartening to see over the past few years is just how much the conversation has improved around industry issues and misconduct and crunch and sexism and stuff like that. Like, I feel like people are just actively talking about this stuff a lot more than they used to. And that alone is a victory because the only way to get this stuff to change is like sunlight is the best disinfectant. And that's like like shining a light on the stuff and talking about it. It's really the only way to to ultimately change this stuff. Yeah. Okay. Let's take a break. and then we will be back with one more thing. Mr. Rubble, man, what are you doing?

I'm just taking one last look at my co-workers. Every journey comes to an end. Remember, PLEC. The space will be with you, always. Sorry, who are you again? Mr. Kiara? Oh, right, right, right, sorry. Just calling in.

Friendships will be tested. Do you have to do it. You have to shoot. Click. Okay. You shot him so fast. Destinies will be fulfilled. I've become a complete bird.

I'm flying. I'm flying. On April 28th, the saga starts concluding. Guys, we don't have a choice. We have to put on a show. We can do it in no barn. We've got the costumes. We've got a stage.

We can do it, you guys. to Zix, the final season on maximum fun. Max Fun drives almost here. It starts on Monday, May 3rd, ends on May 14th, and it's the best time to support the shows you love. Here are some folks like you, sharing what Max Fun and our shows mean to them. Most importantly, it's meant community. And yeah, just thanks for hanging out and making Jocum up and making my week a little bit brighter.

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Until then. And we are back with one more thing. Kirk, you want to take us away here? Sure. My one more thing is a Netflix show that I watched over the weekend, started watching on Friday, and then binge in 24 hours, which it's been a long time since that happened. Speaking of addictive. It was really a fun show. So this show is called Shadow and Bone.

It's pretty talked about. I see some articles on Polygon.com about it. It's true. So I'm going to tell a funny story about this. So Shadow and Bone is based on the Grishaverse books, which are written by an author named Lee Bardugo. the first book was published in 2012. And I didn't know what it was when I saw that it was on Netflix. And then I saw an article on Polygon that just was a positive write-up.

It was like, this is great. And it improves on the books. And I was like, oh, that's exciting. And I'll always check out a fantasy show. And Emily really likes those too. So I was like, let's just watch the show, whatever. So we started it. And I was like, this is great.

We kept watching a couple episodes in. And I start thinking, I feel like I know some of these characters. But I don't know this story or the name of this story. And there's this, so the premise of the story is this. It's this fantasy world. There's, like, people with magic. It's got a lot in common with some other fantasy worlds. Like, you're born and you kind of, like, get a test when you kind of reach adolescence.

And if you have magic in the test, they take you, whisk you away to, like, be a Grisha. And the Grisha are, like, magic users who have all sorts of different disciplines. There's, like, ones that bend elements, a little bit like Avatar. There's, like, people who can do. There's all different kinds of magic, but it has some things in common with that magic system. It's very science-based to... It's a little bit like a full metal alchemist. Also, they're in a kind of totalitarian government.

It's a kingdom, actually. That's based more on, like, Eastern European kingdoms. So it's like fantasy, European fantasy, but not like English, you know, whatever, like Lord of the Rings style. So it's a little different, and it's very political show. More witcher? Yeah, though technologically, it's more like World War I era. The premise is like there's this huge kingdom, and the kingdom is Ravka. I believe it's called.

And the kingdom is split in two by this thing called the fold. That's this huge black darkness zone that happened because of a magical calamity hundreds of years ago and has split the kingdom in two. And now West Ravka and the two parts of the kingdom are like separate. And there's all this political machinations of like, is the West going to secede? And like they want the fold to be there. But the fold could go away. And if the fold went away, like who benefits from that?

So anyways. And then the main character is a young woman who discovers that she's like, like a super special magic mage and gets whisked away. Of course you is. Yeah. So it's like, is she going to, is she going to save the world or remove the folder? Does she not want to? Is she a pawn?

Is she her own person? All right. Okay. So that's the story of shadow and bone. And it's a very pretty standard sounding, you know, when I describe it to you, you're like, okay, I know what this is going to be. So over in West Ravka, though, there's this group of like thieves. This guy, Kaz and Inge, who's like the wraith.

And she's his sort of like. like ninja sort of thief. And there's this guy, Jesper, who's this super awesome, like flamboyant sharpshooter. And they're this team of, like, rogues who are doing heists and stuff. And I kept sitting there watching Kazna.

I was like, I remember this character. Like, I know who this guy is. He's this young, like, super hardcore, like hard-boiled dude. And the show is pretty hard-boiled. Like, it's got, like, really pretty good violence in it. And, like, there's a lot of kind of dark turns and people are being really cynical and tough. And I was like, I know this.

Okay. So here's why I knew it. There's another series that Lee Bardugo wrote, starting with the book Six of Crows, and I read that. Actually, I read the first half of that, and then I didn't finish it. Not because it wasn't good. I just wound up not finishing it for reasons. So I had this thing in my mind where I knew these characters. I knew Kaz, I knew Ines, I knew Jesper. I was like, Nina, the heart render. I was like a heart render. I know what that is. Like, I've heard this before. But it's because what the people making the Netflix show decided was

Six of Crows is apparently beloved by the readers and there's a sequel book to it as well and it takes place after the events of the original Shadow and Bone trilogy so the show folds everything into one big story and takes all the characters from the other book which is really cool this like fantasy heist novel with like thieves and dark like double crosses

and all this cool crime underworld stuff and they fit it into Shadow and Bone which even Bardugo has said apparently she's like yeah it's okay but like the first book in particular. It's kind of tropey. Like, it's just this chosen one story. It's not that great. And Six of Crows is, like really, really great. I like the name, Six of Crows. It's a great name. It sounds like a destiny weapon. It does sound like a destiny weapon. So the show is like a best of both worlds thing. I loved it. Like, I really loved the first season. It changes a lot of stuff. I mean,

those characters aren't even supposed to meet. So they're like writing new stuff for the, for Kaz and his crew of that's cool. That's cool. That's such a fun way to do an adaptation of those books. It's such a cool idea. And it makes me, I am going to go finish Six of Crows now because I'm like, I want more, like, it's very much, it's very easy to watch and you finish it. And you're like, oh, what happens next? Oh, man, I want to watch this. So I want to go, yeah, I want to go read the book. And apparently actually, Polygon just published an article that was like, here's what to do. Petrana wrote a follow up where she was like, if you're going to start reading this series, start with Six of Crows because it's a better book.

Don't start with the Shadow and Bone original trilogy. So Shadow and Bone, that's the show. Okay, that sounds cool. The show is great, though. It's a lot of fun just as a, like, really rich sort of political show that does have some of those, like, Y. tropey things, but also is like, like I said, it's pretty hard-boiled, it's violent in a way that is

weirdly enjoyable, like, you know, whatever, when I say it has good violence, it just like has good fight scenes that are exciting. Is it, uh, is it a complete story or is it like got away for season two to see what what happened next? It's both. It's like a show. It's a complete, it's the first book, so it's like a complete story, but you're going to be excited for what happens next.

After Game of Thrones, I'm reluctant to start new fantasy. This trilogy is over and finished and like they're, you know, they know where that's going at least. It's not going to be Game of Thrones. And it's not like quite, it's not as like dark fantasy as Game of Thrones, but it's also like darker than it would be, I think, if it were just based on the books. And I liked it a lot. Anyways, that's a long, dumb story and really just a recommendation for that show for anyone who wants a fun fantasy show to watch, Shadow and Bone, it's on Netflix.

Maddie, what's here one more thing? So mine is also a Netflix thing. It's, this is a robbery, which is a nonfiction mini-series about an art heist that happened in 1990 at the Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum, which is a museum in my hometown of Boston. And I had always heard about this art heist. It's like hundreds of millions of dollars worth of art. And it was never found again. And it's an unsolved mystery that like haunts the city of Boston forever. And this is a super comprehensive four part miniseries.

Tons of interviews with people who were there. So many Boston accents. Like you should watch it for the accents alone because it's like a range. Mabo of Boston accents, and that's, like, so comforting to me. But also, it's just fascinating because they go over all the different people who you think maybe did the heist, and you'll kind of convince yourself, like, oh, clearly this guy was involved. And they'll be like, here's all the reasons why this guy probably wasn't involved. And you're like, damn, okay.

And then like... Do they solve it? Do they solve it? They don't. But it's fascinating because this artist is probably still out there somewhere and the people who have it maybe don't know what it is. And, like, by the end, it seems like maybe the Italian mob was involved. but like who knows and like they could have passed around the art to like family members or whatever

and maybe just these this rembrandt precious rembrandt painting is like in somebody's living room somewhere now and who you could say or it's like hidden in somehow somewhere so basically I feel like they're trying to get the word out with this series by being like have you literally seen any of these paintings like do you have any leads like the end of it is just them being like seriously though can you help us find this call this number and it's like a 10 million dollar reward or something if you find it. I don't know. No one's going to find it.

I think it's probably gone. That's kind of the tragic thing about the story is like the art has probably been destroyed. But it's fascinating from just a true crime perspective. And I'm a real bliss about true crime. Like, Dina can watch all this stuff about rapes and murders and like really enjoy it. And I'm like, I can't, I can't deal with that. But an art heist, I can watch a true crime about an art heist. Like, that's okay with me.

That's just an interesting mystery. So yeah, I recommend that. Maddie, have you watched American Vandal? Kirk, I know you have. Oh my God. You got to watch American Middle. You would probably enjoy it. It's pretty good.

If you want a true crime story. I feel like we talked about it on an app at one point. We did. Kirk brought it up a while ago. It's a parody. It's a parody of true crime. So it's all about silly stuff. But it's like done in the same style.

And it's really, really good, especially the second season, which is like so well done. Surprisingly, you would really enjoy it. I will check that. Both seasons are great. Yeah. So, hey, that's not my one more thing. My one more thing is a video game. I played a delightful game, you guys, that I want to tell you both about it.

I want you both to play. It is called, and this is the real title of this game, Turnip Boy commits tax evasion. Already in this game. This is a classic in the Turnip Boy series. It's a top-down, adorable, cartoon-y Zelda-like. And it's this little game. It took me like three or four hours to beat.

It's a little game, so it's very, very digestible, very easy to get into and jump into, very kid-friendly. You play as a turnip boy who commits tax evasion because there is a lot of taxes in this little town of vegetables and fruits where he lives. And the mayor is seizing his house as a result of that. And you have to go out and do tasks for the mayor, like go find things in the forest and go find things in an abandoned farmhouse. Sure. Kind of things that mayors need you to do. Yeah, you know. explore these Delta Dungeons.

It is so funny and so adorable. There's a lot of great humor in it. A lot of internet humor which can be hit or miss, but like it mostly works. Really fun just like exploring this little world and like you have to fight animals that

eat vegetables like snails and stuff and rabbits. And they're just these fun gags and hilarious bosses like giant pigs that when you beat them they turn into bacon and stuff like that. It's a lot of just like fun cartoony visual humor. Very like

if my kid, my kid is one and a half if she was like a couple years older, this would be a perfect game for her. But it's really great for anyone who's like into Zelda likes because it's fun. And then there's like a surprising amount of depth to it. There's like a bunch of side quests. You have a task list that is going

around and ripping up pieces of paper. So you have to rip up like your tax evasion, your tax bill. You have to rip up other people's tax bills. That sounds satisfying. I would love to rip up my tax bill. It is fun. Yeah. Tell me about it. And yeah. And then there's a lot of like good puzzle solving. It's like very, it's Zelda light, I would call it. There's a lot of fun stuff you can do. Early in the game, you get a watering can and you can use that to plant, to, to water plants of like, like bomb plants and sword plants.

And then you use them to solve various puzzles, fire plants and stuff like that. And you get items. It's got a Metroidvania quality and that like you're getting. stuff that unlocks other stuff. And yeah, the dialogue is all really clever and fun. And then there's also this mystery that underlying this world where it is like, hey, wait a minute, why are there no humans here? What are we? Why are we all talking vegetables?

And then it gets a little dark. And there's like some dark stuff, dark undertones to it all. When you finally figure out like how this world is created and why you're all here. There's some like really interesting stuff to it. A little bit of bug snacks action, it sounds like. Yeah, yeah, it is. It did remind me kind of a bug snacks. really, really enjoyed this game.

Really just a delightful experience. And never wore out, it's welcome. Because, like, I'm sure there are people out there who will be like, oh, three hours. I'd never play that. But I think it's only like $11 or $12 on Steam and Switch. It's on Switch already. So it's not like one of those games where we have to wait for it to come to Switch. Because it's a good...

Sounds like an ideal Switch game. Oh, yeah. Love a three-hour Switch game. That's like... Yeah, three-hour, like Zelda-like. It's very, very enjoyable. I recommend it. It's called, once again, Turnip Boy, commits tax evasion.

And that is what happened. Not a very memorable name. I'm sure people have forgotten it already. Yeah, it's an accurate title. I enjoyed it. And yeah, you should go play it. Nice. Cool.

All right. That is it for this week's episode. Once again, we will be back live on Tuesday. Coming at you, May 4th, 630 p.m. Eastern Time Zone. Check out our Twitch channel. We will be there. You will get to watch us set up, do our pre-show. It's going to be great.

Do our breaks, do our post show. It's all going to work. Get all the behind the scene stuff. It's very dramatic. It's very fun. It's going to be great. All right. On that note, see you guys next time.

All right, bye. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes.

Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network. And if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximum fun.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at triple click pod, send email the triple click

at maximum fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximumfund.org Comedy and culture.

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